Just remember, as you go to craft your politically snarky tweets for or against the strikes, tonight US troops everywhere are in harm's way.
— S.E. Cupp (@secupp) April 7, 2017
While the folks in the MSM are all getting their war face on (fucking christ, everyone on MSNBC was more hopped up and giddy than a butter bar in his first live fire exercise), let’s nip this pernicious, jingoistic bullshit in the bud. No, US troops everywhere are not in harms way tonight, or at least no more than they were last night or the night before last or the night before that. In fact, the overwhelming majority of them are probably safer than you, asleep in their bunks or base housing on a secure military facility guarded by gates and checkpoints and in areas where open carry by unqualified shitbirds isn’t fucking allowed.
Yes, a few troops are in harms way tonight, but you don’t even know who they are or where they are. But it isn’t the folks on the ships who were firing Tomahawks at empty airbases. Hell, even the Marine artillery that was quietly deployed last month to Syria aren’t in that much danger, because if they were, they would have infantry and armor deployed as well to protect them. You don’t just dump a a portion of a MEF in the middle of nowhere and say “game on and good luck.” Even fucking marines aren’t that stupid. Well, Marine leadership isn’t that stupid. I think.
BTW- this attack accomplished nothing but sending the proverbial message. It didn’t hit any Russians, and more than likely didn’t hit any Syrians, because we told the Russians ahead of time and they of course told the Syrians. Hell, the Joint Chiefs told every fucking body yesterday:
The Pentagon has developed plans for an airstrike against Syrian government targets in response to this week’s apparent chemical attack by Syrian government forces, according to two U.S. military officials.
Secretary of Defense James Mattis will present the proposals to Donald Trump later today at the president’s Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida.
One of the proposals drawn up is a “saturation strike” using dozens of cruise missiles designed to hit Syrian military targets — including military air fields — in an effort to limit future Syrian Air Force attacks on rebel positions, according to the two U.S. military officials.
The officials asked for anonymity to discuss classified plans.
RE: the bolded portion of that paragraph
They didn’t develop the plans yesterday, they dusted them off. In addition, I’m sure they requested anonymity, but I’m willing to bet you could reach them here AT THIS WEBSITE and they will tell you anything you want to hear. Off the record, of course. *WINK WINK*
Oh, ffs. Just go watch the proportional response episode of the West Wing. It’s Season 1, I think.
Meanwhile, we could actually help by tasking refugees, but, you know, gotta pump some money to the defense industry, justify the increased military budget, jack up Trump’s poll numbers, and boost the price of gas to stabilize the finances of our buddies in the House of Saud. They need the money so we can keep selling the munitions to dump on Yemen.
Also, I got 3/4 of the way to the airport for my flight this morning before discovering I left my wallet and phone at home. So now I have to fucking fly up tomorrow, a day light and who knows how many hundreds of dollars shorter. I’m in a crankier mood than usual. Send lawyers, guns and money.
amk
All it took for the msm scumbags to ‘rally behind’ the twitler was yet another ill-advised & ill-planned war.
Kansi
Remember when we were worried about Russian interference in our elections and a President beholden to their interests? Ah, good times.
Immanentize
Good morning, John and all the rest. I do wonder what today in Trump’s Rome is going to be like.
rikyrah
you don’t even now how many because they won’t release the numbers of troops.
zach
Wonder what she said when Trump was rooting for Mosul offensive to fail while it was happening.
D58826
A message that no one every seems to actually ‘GET’ . If after 9 million dead in the War to end all wars the world then proceeded to part II and 60 million dead then the message will never be received.
zach
JFK set the standard for making a factual, public case for military escalation that risks broader war during the Cuban missile crisis. Bush at least made an effort with Afghanistan and Iraq; Obama more or less followed that model with Libya and Syria, with a bigger emphasis on building real international consensus.
Did the Syrian military carry out a sarin gas attack? Everyone seems to think so, but we have a precedent that Trump or his highest deputies need to make that case before the American public and the international community before we attack unless there’s an immediate threat or surprise is absolutely necessary (in which case you make your case the next day and it better be damning).
Patricia Kayden
So the “liberal” media has learned nothing from the lead up to the Iraq war fiasco? We’re supposed to go down this road again where we cheerlead an unjustified war?
I’m hoping that Trump got his need to blow things up satiated with these airstrikes and that is that. I hope this doesn’t mean that our troops are going to invade Syria or Iran. But no way should the MSM be acting as if it’s okay to drag the U.S. into more wars. And this President isn’t popular enough to lie us into another one when our military still has people in Iraq and Afghanistan.
S.E. Cupp can shut the hell up.
Chet
Just remember, as you go to hide behind the flag, that US troops have been in harm’s way for the past 16 years.
Baud
I’ll think of the troops as I snark.
Anya
I am honestly conflicted about this. Assad can’t get away with gassing children and murdering civilians with impunity. At the same time, we have check and balances for a reason. We can’t just ignore our laws. Also, this is Trump, he can’t manage a complicated thing like war. I don’t know what to think. I wish the assholes in congress gave Obama authorization because that situation was manageable. Now everything is a major clusterf*ck.
Baud
Why don’t you have your family overnight it to you?
Baud
@Anya: I feel the same way.
bystander
@Immanentize:
All circus, no bread.
MomSense
@Anya: @Baud:
Well if it helps you feel less conflicted, ABC is reporting that Syrian military personnel and equipment were moved out of the area before the air strike.
We gave a heads up to Russia (who told Syria) before our own State Dept and Congress.
Sloane Ranger
So, with his domestic agenda stalled, Trump, like numerous Presidents before him, enters the realm of foreign policy where he is traditionally given more leeway. And, as an added bonus, he
1. Provides evidence that he’s not in Putin’s pocket, whatever the evidence of collusion between his campaign and Russia seems to say.
2. Cuts off any increased pressure to accept Syrian refugees (We’re protecting them in country don’t you know).
3. Provides a nice shiny distraction for the media and makes it seem unpatriotic for them to criticize him at the same time.
4. Gets to feel like a real he-man President. Teddy Roosevelt eat your heart out!
No downside here for him.
John Cole
@MomSense: I said that in the post!
Patricia Kayden
@Anya: In my opinion, the only way to deal with Assad is to cooperate with other countries to put an end to his regime either militarily or diplomatically. But the U.S. doesn’t need to take things into its own hands and act unilaterally against Syria. Last night’s strikes did nothing to end Assad’s regime.
Also, when we get rid of Assad, will this lead to chaos like what happened in Libya after Gaddafi’s ouster?
Seems like Russia’s support of Assad is propping up his regime and the world has to put enough pressure on Putin that he reverses course on this.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud:
Thank you for your service.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Don’t you need ID to get on a plane?
Baud
@MomSense:
John’s girlfriend is pretty well informed.
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA: No. It’s a myth.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Patricia Kayden:
Yes, times 10.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I haven’t been on an areoplane since 2005.
MomSense
@John Cole:
I know!! We are going to have to keep saying it, writing it, shouting it, painting it on our bodies and streaking it through baseball games to try to counter all the BS flag waving tough talk that we will be bombarded with by the cable news outlets.
Baud
I still don’t know why Assad sees it in his benefit to use chemical weapons over conventional weapons.
p.a.
The Cole has hit the fan…
Angry guy is angry
Don’t take it out on airline personell tomorrow. Unless they deserve it.
OzarkHillbilly
@?BillinGlendaleCA: No. They have procedures for that.
rikyrah
John Hudson
✔
@John_Hudson
Many officials at State Department today were completely out of the loop, as were key US allies, about imminent US strike. #unilateralism
8:38 PM – 6 Apr 2017 · Maryland, USA
Baud
A question that the news won’t ask. Why did Assad wait until Obama was out of office to use chemical weapons?
MomSense
@Baud:
Much cheaper
Baud
@MomSense: Gotcha.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: Silly boy, it’s because he was so weak.
rikyrah
this entire twitter thread about Kushner and his security clearance
Mark S. ZaidVerified account @MarkSZaidEsq
(1) As one who regularly handles cases and teaches security clearance practices, this is incredibly significant
https://twitter.com/MarkSZaidEsq/status/850167778476687360
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Anybody want to gamble an over/under on how much longer Tillerson stays? I say two weeks, and figure he’ll try and finagle a golden parachute like any other underperforming C-Suite executive.
Hard to imagine, but he rivals or exceeds Trump at his core skill of incompetence.
MJS
I’m not overly concerned with this becoming the single focus of the media. There is the Russian angle to play up here (Russia is propping up Assad, we told the Russians in advance, the Russians told Assad…the more times the media says “Russia” or “Russian” the better off we are) and it is not at all unusual for the U.S. to launch cruise missiles even absent a war (Clinton did it at least twice). There is no popular sentiment for sending U.S. troops into Syria, and without that happening, the military won’t have embedded media to act as its PR firm. Unless Trump can launch cruise missiles every day, either to hit Syria or other targets, or commits to expanding the war to include a significant number of ground troops, this won’t have legs.
OzarkHillbilly
Chutzpah is a Republican:
Karma says he should get an overworked and underpaid Public Defender.
gene108
@Baud:
ID he needs to board flight probably in wallet. Maybe an e-ticket, saved on his phone.
Hal
Sippy Cup! She’s alive. Also, isn’t this the moment in a sci-fi movie when the time travelers arrive from their dystopian future to try and prevent the world’s destruction?
liberal
@Anya: you don’t know Assad did it. Sure, he might have. It could also be a rebel false flag. It could also be nothing happened and it’s just a rebel lie. The only evidence is what people from rebel-held territory have claimed, AFAICT.
liberal
@Sloane Ranger: yep.
gene108
@amk:
As Baud observed yesterday, the media is just itching to normalize Trump. They wanted to use his Congressional speech as proof of his Presidential pivot, because the speech was not a complete clusterfuck.
Now they’ve latched onto this cruise missile strike.
The media cannot accept that a Republican President is not a strong, wise, and great leader. They think the Republicans are the “daddy Party”, and daddy knows best.
liberal
@zach: forget it. Almost everyone already believes that Assad did it, even though no real proof has been provided.
liberal
@gene108: don’t forget that HRC and some Congressional Dems are doing their best to normalize this, too.
Baud
@liberal: If that’s true, they did more than lie. They fabricated a video.
liberal
@MJS: it’ll have legs when a cruise missile takes out lots of Russian soldiers.
Jeffro
@Baud:
We expect nothing less!
Also, Sippy Cupp can kiss my ass.
@Baud:
I think it’s for the sheer terror it causes (or that he thinks it causes) in the population. His version of Hama Rules.
Baud
@liberal: This type of action is already pretty normalized. Long before Trump or Obama or even Bush.
Patricia Kayden
@liberal: How?
Baud
@Patricia Kayden: She said we should take out Assad’s airfields so he can’t launch air attacks on rebels.
debbie
@MomSense:
Right, so they could get their personnel and equipment out of the way. We couldn’t have been more polite. We couldn’t have raised the very valid point that Russia lied and deceived us about having gotten rid of all of Assad’s chemical weapons. Heavens, no.
OzarkHillbilly
@liberal: Why don’t you go there and gather the evidence for yourself seeing as you think the ICs of many countries are all colluding together in one great conspiracy to smear the poor innocent Assad?
liberal
@Baud: Sure.
Raven
Repost from Pat Lang
Donald Trump’s decision to launch cruise missile strikes on a Syrian Air Force Base was based on a lie. In the coming days the American people will learn that the Intelligence Community knew that Syria did not drop a military chemical weapon on innocent civilians in Idlib. Here is what happened:
The Russians briefed the United States on the proposed target. This is a process that started more than two months ago. There is a dedicated phone line that is being used to coordinate and deconflict (i.e., prevent US and Russian air assets from shooting at each other) the upcoming operation.
The United States was fully briefed on the fact that there was a target in Idlib that the Russians believes was a weapons/explosives depot for Islamic rebels.
The Syrian Air Force hit the target with conventional weapons. All involved expected to see a massive secondary explosion. That did not happen. Instead, smoke, chemical smoke, began billowing from the site. It turns out that the Islamic rebels used that site to store chemicals, not sarin, that were deadly. The chemicals included organic phosphates and chlorine and they followed the wind and killed civilians.
There was a strong wind blowing that day and the cloud was driven to a nearby village and caused casualties.
We know it was not sarin. How? Very simple. The so-called “first responders” handled the victims without gloves. If this had been sarin they would have died. Sarin on the skin will kill you. How do I know? I went through “Live Agent” training at Fort McClellan in Alabama.
liberal
@OzarkHillbilly: Right. It took all of a day or two to prove he did it?
Raven
@OzarkHillbilly: remember the incubator babies of Kuwait?
Baud
@Raven: How credible do you think that is?
liberal
@Raven: not sure I’d believe anything Lang says, but OTOH the case has hardly been made.
Of course, the bloodthirsty “liberal” hawks here don’t care.
Jack the Second
I know there were valid reasons to tell everyone we were shooting vaguely in the direction of before we started shooting, so they could get out of the way, but does anyone else remember in the election when Trump was all “I have a plan to defeat ISIS but I’m not going to say it on TV”?
Baud
@liberal: You may be right. Hopefully we’ll find out soon. FWIW, I think we could have waited a few days before launching the missiles. Don’t like the process at all.
Raven
@Baud: Well, Pat and his crew at SicSemper Tyrannis have been on this for quite a while. I fight with him all the time about the Nam but I go there for Middle East .
Baud
@Jack the Second: I do!
amk
@liberal: And yet it took you two seconds of blogging to prove that assad didn’t do it?
JPL
@rikyrah: That story along with Nunes investigation should be what the news is focused on. Alas that won’t happen.
gene108
@Baud:
But, I bet Hillary would have notified our allies, the State Department, and built a consensus as to why we needed to do this, and would actually want to end the fighting in Syria and maybe have some sort of goal in mind, as to what a successful campaign would entail.
It is a small difference, I know, as all interevention and all things military are bad, but it is a difference.
I mean, now what’s Trump’s next move? Assad’s ability to do what he does has not really been hurt.
liberal
@OzarkHillbilly: LOL. Assad isn’t innocent, but neither are your head chopper salafist friends.
Baud
@gene108: Right. See my later comment about process.
Patricia Kayden
@Baud: Ok. Thanks.
liberal
@amk: last I checked, the onus is not on anyone to prove a negative, you stupid sack of shit.
OzarkHillbilly
@Raven: No.
Raven
Full article from SST
liberal
@Baud: the process must involve a UN Sec Council resolution. Otherwise it’s illegal.
zach
@liberal: It blew my mind when everyone ate up Kerry’s UN presentation re: the 2013 attack. I guess everyone’s memories expire after 10 years when it comes to trusting US Secretaries of State assuring us that there’s damning secret evidence they can’t show.
This attack sets a precedent that the USA must strike after each chemical attack, with escalating severity (and less warning) every time. If the Syrian military deployed sarin here, that’s probably a good thing. If another faction in the civil war is responsible, this will only get worse.
Patricia Kayden
@liberal: Who are the bloodthirsty liberal BJ hawks? Wow.
OzarkHillbilly
@liberal:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHASHAHAHAHAHAHA…..
10,000 unemployed comedians and here you are giving it away for free.
Raven
Full article from SST. 2
Raven
gene108
@Patricia Kayden:
Those of us, who are not willing to bash Hillary Clinton, because she’s in favor of air strikes to destroy Assad’s Air Force.
None of us are in favor of Trump or what Trump did.
This is about our support for Hillary, and the fact we would trust her to act responsibly, if she chose to use military force.
Raven
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/04/donald-trump-is-an-international-law-breaker.html
Chyron HR
@liberal:
Actually, all my friends prefer guacamole.
Kay
@Baud:
I don’t think the US system was designed to work without Congress. It doesn’t work right with only two functioning branches. I worried most about Trump coming into that situation because I knew he would get immediately frustrated and just start doing shit using the executive branch. For domestic there’s a check on that and we saw it immediately- courts on the executive orders- but US courts will rarely intervene in executive actions regarding foreign policy.
So you’re down to one branch, and when Donald Trump is running that branch…Lord.
Oldgold
For Trump reality is what he observes on TV. Almost nothing else matters. It is the key to understanding this bizarre and limited man.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@liberal: That’s a good point. Maybe Wilmer will come out of hiding and bring that up.
bystander
Seems somebody got bored spamming Nancy Pelosi’s facebook page.
The brilliant military tactician Bob Woodward has been providing some deep analysis on Moanin’ Joe. Emphasis on “anal”. The panel is squirming with orgasmic glee at the opportunity to drape the purple trimmed toga on Caesar.
Raven
@gene108: you mean like calling for Trump to do what he did?
efgoldman
@Baud:
ID lives in wallet. Can’t get on the plane without it. Typically ATM and credit cards do too.
Kay
@Oldgold:
The “Trump was swayed by the photos of children” bothers me. I know this is supposed to humanize him and be comforting but to me it just means he’s dangerous because children were dying in Syria all along, apparently he just didn’t see photos of them. I would be more comfortable without the “pictures of children” justification. That sounds harsh and cold but I feel as if that sort of emotional distance works out better- often it works out better for children because “children” are in a bigger group called “people”. Acting based on “children” is often a disaster for the children you’re supposedly saving.
J R in WV
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Technically, you don’t. But practically you may.
Yesterday I started a trip to Tucson, first and second flightset to Atlanta cancelled. Got into Hartsfield around 1 pm. Flights to Tucson delayed over and over, cancelled about 1am this morning.
Stood in line, a huge long line on a marble floors for 6 hours for retiCreating! When I reached the counter, there were few choices that would get me into Tucson today, so I asked for a return ticket home. No sleep since 4 am yesterday!
Waiting for departure now, with no coat, while it snows back home, and is 90 in Tucson!
Donna K
Don’t ever change, John Cole. When you speak from your heart, I feel like you’re speaking from mine.
Baud
@Raven: Meh. She might make decisions we don’t like, but I don’t think she would act precipitously if she were prez.
OzarkHillbilly
@efgoldman:
Again, yes you can. There are procedures for that.
Raven
@Kay: See my “Kuwait Incubator” post above.
Baud
@efgoldman: I’ve gotten on a plane without my ID.
Raven
@Baud: (CNN)Hillary Clinton called on the United States to take out Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad’s Air Force on Thursday, days after a chemical attack killed more than 70 people in the war-torn country.
“Assad has an air force, and that air force is the cause of most of these civilian deaths as we have seen over the years and as we saw again in the last few days,” Clinton said in a speech at the “Women in the World” summit in New York City. “And I really believe that we should have and still should take out his air fields and prevent him from being able to use them to bomb innocent people and drop sarin gas on them.”
Patricia Kayden
@gene108:
Exactly. Not sure what liberal is getting at but our support for Secretary Clinton doesn’t make us bloodthirsty. I guess we’ll have to wait and see what else Trump does because last night’s airstrikes may be all he decides to do. Those strikes accomplished nothing but may have satisfied his desire to be seen as a war President. Who knows?
clay
@bystander: On Joe just now, McCain gave a huge smirk when he said he was glad that the Chinese were visiting when this happened. What a cock.
OzarkHillbilly
@J R in WV: Sucks to be you. Sorry for the troubles.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@OzarkHillbilly:
Though I’ve heard it involves an anal probe.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
I’m against the cruise missile strike for various reasons, but it sure is strange how the usual suspects race to defend Dr. Assad.
Kay
@Raven:
There’s almost a rule- “any state law based on a high profile child death or harming will be a knee jerk disaster in practice and probably harm people”, and, this is key- “children are people“.
You have to put them in the “people” context. They don’t operate independently of other people and communities.
J R in WV
@J R in WV:
AARGGG!!
Reticketing … f u autocorrect that corrects the third time!!!
MomSense
@Baud:
Yeah I think the process is bohohohohohohgus myself. No UN inspections or investigations. I’m loving how the media and republicans are jumping in with how this makes up for 8 years of inaction and failure of Obama to follow up his red line threat with action. They are all conveniently forgetting that they voted to deny him authorization for use of force or that we were conducting tons of air strikes with our allies against IS.
indycat32
@Kay: Trump didn’t seen all that concerned about the children killed during the Yemen attack made on his order.
Chyron HR
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
Do they know that we know this is just code for “do what Russia wants OR ELSE”?
efgoldman
@J R in WV:
Did you run into Steve in the ATL in your non-travels?
Kay
@Patricia Kayden:
What I objected to about how Clinton was portrayed was that she was portrayed as exceptionally hawkish when that is not true. I recognized that she was and is more of a hawk than I am but that doesn’t make her a hawk outlier in the scheme of things. Her opponents did this over and over, with everything. Dishonesty by Hillary Clinton was the most dishonest thing ever, and on and on. Compared to what or who?
gene108
@Raven:
Hillary talked about grounding Assad’s Air Force for some time to keep him from bombing civilians. She was not keeping it secret.
I have no idea what Trump wants to accomplish with this use of force.
Is this part of a broader strategy? Did he do it because someone whispered it in his ear?
I think the level of thought Hillary put into this issue, versus Trump, who was talking about leaving Assad alone, and now may have changed his mind, makes a difference to me, with regards to how confident I am that this was a good decision.
We will never know, if Hillary would have conducted her air strikes with no warning to anyone, other than the Russians. But I somehow doubt this is how she would have gone about it.
efgoldman
@indycat32:
Nobody waved pix/video in front of him.
J R in WV
@OzarkHillbilly:
The Delta staff individuallyrics have been polite and professional.
The Delta operation in Atlanta is maliciously mismanaged! There were 5 desks/staff to issue new tires to thousands of stranded customers. They had planes, but no crews, unable to deal with a surge in volume days after a not-giant weather event. Understaffed to save a buck.
Grrrr.
efgoldman
@J R in WV:
No seepe 27 hours yu kno tipe gud
Patricia Kayden
@gene108:
And this is the crux of the problem with understanding anything he does. He is such a liar that we cannot trust anything he claims. I bet Trump doesn’t even know what he accomplished by last night’s strikes.
D58826
@Jack the Second: Or that he would not warn enemy before launching an attack?
So all of the GOOPERS who suggested anything that Obama did was an impeachable offense are now bowing down before Der Fuhrer. Rightly or wrongly the D’s also seem to be falling in line to support the attack.
There are a number of links on Twitter, pro and con, by people with long expertise in the area. I suspect we will have a new AUMF out of Congress before we see repeal/replace or tax reform.
It’s just I’ve seen this movie before. We were only defending our destroyers in the Gulf of Tonkin and don’t want a wider war. We will be in and out of the Balkans in 6 months. We will be greeted as liberators. NATO will take the lead in Libya.
So in the space of 24 hours Der Fuhrer went from Assad can stay to Assad must go. Why? Look, the photos of the dead babies from the gas attack are heart breaking but why are those deaths any worse than the babies crushed, burned or buried in the rubble of Aleppo? Why are their lives any more valuable than the babies drowning in the Med. as they try to seek asylum in Europe?
So what happens next? An airstrike every time Assad uses chemical weapons, as he surely will? Or when Assad/Russians shot down one or our planes supporting operations around Raqua? Or when Iran or one of it’s proxies (Hezbollah) attacks an American target in the ME? And then there are all of the free-lancers in Europe with their knives and trucks or a free lancer in the US with a readily obtainable AR15. Obviously some of this might have happened anyway but this just pours more high octane fuel on an already raging fire.
One op-ed writer, from the Obama Admin., talked about this giving the US leverage in future negotiations on ending the war. Maybe he is right, after all he negotiated with the Russians I didn’t. But it seems like there has to be a Syrian negotiation party across the table from Assad. The only thing that seems to unite the rebels is their hated of Assad. Take that away and they will turn on each other. And most of them seem to be a short step from ISIS/AQ jihadists themselves.
There was a Twitter link to an article that this attack serves notice on N. Korea that the US will go it alone in Korea if need be. FSM forbid if that becomes an accepted approach.
Truly an exhausting and depressing day.
Kay
@indycat32:
Right, and one can always do that with the “pictures of children” justification. The children in Yemen were entirely innocent and powerless too. So it isn’t “children” – we’re making distinctions based on the context- where the children happen to live and the adults surrounding them. Better to just put them in “people” rather than pretending they operate as a separate group. They are the people who DON’T operate independently, they are the MOST dependent on surrounding adults and community. It’s just a bad way to think about them, IMO. It doesn’t make sense.
efgoldman
@Patricia Kayden:
I think he still can’t find Syria on a map.
zach
@MomSense:
Or that Obama oversaw the negotiation and eventual destruction of 620 tons of weapons-related chemicals, the entirety of Syria’s declared arsenal, and the dismantling of all chemical weapons facilities not inaccessible because of the civil war. Obviously ‘declared’ chemicals are not necessarily everything, but destroying them did a lot more to reduce the likelihood and severity of future chemical warfare than blowing up an empty airfield.
Hal
Trump is going to use the opinion of the person he wanted locked up for treason to justify his military action. Bizzaro world.
OzarkHillbilly
@?BillinGlendaleCA: HA!
Baud
@Kay: Compared to dudes, Kay.
Baud
@Raven: She didn’t just arrive at her views over the weekend. As @gene108 says, she has consistently viewed Assad’s air power as problematic.
Baud
@MomSense:
I feel like there has been more media critiques of Obama’s red line than of Bush’s Iraq adventure.
OzarkHillbilly
@J R in WV:
Were the passengers forced to mount and balance the tires before takeoff too? Wow, I’ll never fly Delta again! ;-)
clay
@Patricia Kayden:
Well, he knows that it was the most successful attack probably ever. A lot of people are saying it.
Kay
@Baud:
We got the moron interventionist who watches cable tv all day and is incredibly easy to manipulate as opposed to the smart interventionist – that’s a win?
Did you see the pictures of Jared in the vest in Iraq? I still can’t believe we gave these people all this power. Now he’s a commander. Dear God.
Barbara
S.E. Cupp can bite my ass. My nephews are two of those people “in harm’s way” and the best way to protect them is not to engage in impulsive military intervention without a strategic rationale.
Baud
@Kay: It’s a win to some people.
I didn’t see Jared in a vest. Your description reminds me of McCain in the Iraq market way back when.
OzarkHillbilly
@efgoldman: What’s a llepo?
ETA: and yes I know it was Johnson who said that, but we all know Donald was thinking it.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay:
IMHO the internal debate on the liberal-left about humanitarian interventions, which happened throughout the 1990s (the wars in Yugoslavia, Rwanda, etc.), was never really resolved, and hence there are people across the left who think all military intervention is just a pretext for imperialism, even though there is a robust tradition on the left of believing in judiciously using force to protect human rights that is _entirely consistent with_ liberal-left ideals. This is why it’s a massive mistake to think Hillary Clinton has the same views on military force as, say, Dick Cheney, which, if you think of “hawk” and “dove” as a binary state, she’d have to be. Note that even Bernie Sanders voted to authorize Afghanistan, so even supposed “doves” acknowledge gray areas, more so than many of the commenters in Left Blogistan like to acknowledge.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: These discount airlines are going too far.
Kay
@Baud:
That’s part of why I feel like I don’t “share their values”. They perceive weakness completely differently than I do.
This seems like an insurmountable difference – one that can’t be papered over. We literally value different qualities in people.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
J
It’s never time to discuss war, is it? Like say, if ISIS is the real threat, how is taking out Assad going to do anything put help ISIS?
Trump really is a small dicked beta male behind all his bluster. Fucken eh, if the plan is take Assassad out, then do it and shot the missiles at him instead of empty airfields.
Baud
@Kay: Same here. I accept that I am incompatible with them. That is why I consistently vote to keep them out of power.
bemused
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Tillerson also rivals Trump’s indifference and reluctance for job. So Tillerson’s wife convinced him to take the job even though Tillerson didn’t want to. His wife said he was supposed to, God wasn’t done with him yet. I abhor these people who think they have God’s private phone#. Tillerson should have listened to his gut but he and his wife probably thought God intended for him to be Exxon ceo destroying earth.
bemused
@OzarkHillbilly:
I’m going to get whiplash from shaking my head. Stockman is the poster boy for entitled white whiney ass Republicans.
Kay
@FlipYrWhig:
Thanks. I did some reading on the liberal interventionist side during that period so I was aware of the debate.
I honestly don’t know where I fall but my suggestion would be that using “pictures of children” as justification is not a good way to think about this and won’t end anywhere good, despite the best intentions.
Children rely on adults so adults have to be more rigorous than that. You can’t rescue children outside of the context of the adults they rely upon and the communities they live in, unless you physically take them all out of there.
It’s a profound misunderstanding of their place – how things work for them.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: I know, *Lutheran Airways* likes to take up collections at the halfway point of any flight for the fuel to finish the flight.
**from a garrison kiellor skit on PHC
Chris
“I like the troops that didn’t get in harm’s way!”
– the Commander-in-Chief, only barely paraphrased.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay: Right, I wasn’t trying to correct you or anything, just to use your comment as a jumping-off point.
Chris
@Patricia Kayden:
Well, no. We just cheerlead loudly and proudly for THE TROOPS!!! and allow the implication to hang heavily in the air that anyone who isn’t for the war isn’t for THE TROOPS!!! If people don’t get the message and say something vaguely not-pro-war sounding, you then double down by saying something to the effect of “you can criticize the war but don’t you dare criticize THE TROOPS!!!” though no one’s actually done so. And so on.
zach
Trump’s fulfilling the goals of the pet project of two of his biggest potential enemies in the Senate in any impeachment fight in the same week he makes moves to push out (almost) everyone who was cozy with Russian agents during the campaign. Insulating himself from the fallout from the investigations and Graham will take the lead in coming up with excuses as to why Trump’s not responsible for those in his campaign and how, even if he were, he didn’t know exactly what was happening and we can’t have chaos in the Whitehouse during a time of war.
bemused
@Baud:
Jared looked like a prep school boy playing army.
Baud
@bemused: Isn’t that what he is?
bemused
@Baud:
Yup. That’s why the photo first amused and then horrified me.
JMG
There is no quicker way for any President to earn the praise of elite Washington, Congress, the think tank crowd and most of all the media, than military adventure. Such actions play to the belief that Washington is the center of world power, and that by being in proximity to the center, those people must be pretty hot shit themselves. Domestic politics just reminds them that Washington has ceded most of its power to organized wealth both at home and abroad, and that therefore their lives are kind of trivial.
This is true for any President, but it’s especially dangerous for one who’s hopelessly insecure and who lives off the approval of others.
OzarkHillbilly
@Kay: I know where I fall: Right on the damn fence, forever impaled by my own indecision. In truth, military force should always be the last option as it is the proverbial hammer in search of a nail and it’s not too picky about the nails it hammers, but this is not to say there is never a time to use it. I think it was Susan Rice who said she will forever be haunted by the Rwandan *genocide* because we chose to do nothing when we clearly could have done something. Whether that something would have been productive or not is something we will never know, but the results of the nothing we did, are clear for all to see.
**as an example of military action ending a genocide, Vietnam’s invasion of Cambodia. When I first read of it, I know my first thought was “Thank God somebody finally did something.”
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Baud:
To troll Trump into doing this limped dicked attack so Assad can now call his opponents lackeys of the US Imperialists.
Chris
@Kay:
It bothers me that anyone buys that shit.
If photos of dead Syrian children didn’t sway him to allow refugee programs to continue, if stories of people dying from lack of health insurance didn’t sway him to support the ACA, don’t anyone tell me he suddenly gives a crap about these children. He’s been having a crappy few months, he needs to show the world what a Strong Leader he is, and he likes playing with his new military toys anyway. That’s all there is to it.
clay
So, first this happens:
And this this happens.
Hmmm…..
(EDIT: Apparently, I don’t know how to embed links, sorry.)
Betty Cracker
@FlipYrWhig: Excellent point. I’m almost always in the “diplomacy and aid, not military intervention” camp, but you’re correct to point out there’s a world of difference between, say, Samantha Power and John Bolton.
Patricia Kayden
@zach: Trump took action to accomplish what exactly? Trump told Russia in advance and Russia told Assad in advance so what was accomplished by this military exercise? I assume Assad had time to remove his troops/equipment from the locations Trump bombed last night.
What a farce.
Kathleen
@?BillinGlendaleCA: And mops?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I’m going to apologize in advance, but I’ll break the ice and say that being one of THE TROOPS is just another fucking job. The vast majority of US armed forces members are far, far away from any combat, and work in support roles. Compared to the uniformed services of other nations, they’re decently paid and receive significant financial support for their endeavors in terms of equipment and rations.
I’d like to see the same level of societal concern demonstrated for industrial, mine, logging and mariner deaths from society at large, which, judging by this Congress’ gutting of protections, doesnt seem to exist.
Instead, we fetishize soldiers and cops, while conversely ignoring industrial deaths and viewing firefighter deaths with vague fascination over the quaintness of the traditions of the funerals.
Patricia Kayden
@Chris: Cheerleading the troops means speaking out against unnecessary wars that will lead to their harm and death. Not sure how that isn’t obvious to everyone.
Chris
@JMG:
I don’t know. Obama didn’t get much praise for Libya. He got praise for Bin Laden, because that was so blatant that even the MSM couldn’t ignore it, but even then it felt grudging.
D58826
@Kay: Photo was more absurd than Dukakis in the tank. Flack jacket over a business suit jacket. Only thing missing was the polo mallet. Of course not sure he would have looked any better in cammies.
Betty Cracker
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: No need to apologize for telling the truth.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Chris: This is all about, “standing up to Russia”, making America fall in line with the war President. Trying to change the narrative. It will work for a few days, but the constant drip, drip, drip, of the treasonous spying ring will eventually catch up with these folks.
Chris
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I wholeheartedly approve of and endorse everything in this.
hovercraft
Kushner Left Out Meetings With Russian Officials From Security Clearance Docs
Jared Kushner, President Donald Trump’s son-in-law, failed to note two meetings with Russian officials, as well as other conversations with foreign officials, on his application for a security clearance, the New York Times reported on Thursday.
The federal government requires those applying for a security clearance to list all contacts with foreign officials over the past seven years. As has been previously reported, Kushner met with Sergey N. Gorkov, the chief of a Russian state-owned bank, Vnesheconombank, in December. He also met with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak in Trump Tower that same month.
Jamie Gorelick, Kushner’s lawyer, told the New York Times that the omissions were an error. She said that the day after the forms were turned in, the FBI was informed that Kushner would provide additional information.
“During the presidential campaign and transition period, I served as a point-of-contact for foreign officials trying to reach the president-elect. I had numerous contacts with foreign officials in this capacity,” Kushner said in a statement to the FBI, according to Gorelick. “I would be happy to provide additional information about these contacts.”
Kushner did not list any names in the statement, per the New York Times.
Kushner has an interim security clearance right now, aides to Kushner told the New York Times.
Patricia Kayden
@Kay: Clinton Derangement Syndrome has been a thing since the 1990s and will never go away. It has even infected many on the Left. Sigh.
gene108
@JMG:
If you are a Republican.
Bill Clinton was savaged for the intervention in Somalia. He was mocked for the missile attack to get Osama, as a distraction from the Lewinsky affair.
Obama was routinely criticized for pretty much anything he did, he did not do, or what he had no control over, like the consulate attack on Benghazi.
Patricia Kayden
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: It would be easier to argue that Trump was standing up to Russia if he didn’t warn Russia in advance of the strikes.
OzarkHillbilly
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Found this and thought of your questions regarding underwater photography, may it help: Dive into the twilight zone off Easter Island reveals new species There is discussion in the captions of the conditions photographers deal with at depth.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Patricia Kayden: Fake “standing up to Russia”. I’ve already seen this used as an excuse to wave away all the Russia stuff. He couldn’t possibly be in Putin’s pocket if he did this.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Patricia Kayden:
Yes, war is very very for their ratings.
hovercraft
@Chris:
According to FOX and the est of the peanut gallery, Obama was un-presidential, because he took credit for the raid when everyone knows it was the military and SEAL Team 6 in particular who were responsible. Obama didn’t plan it or go on the raid, so he should have just thanked the SEAL’s and left it at that, all that bragging was unseemly, a republican president would never showboat like that.
Baud
@hovercraft: Yep.
hovercraft
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Nothing to apologize for, all true.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
and like starting today it will just look weak on trump’s part – Assad already talking smack about Trump and not properly chastised. By next week everyone will have forgotten about this.
ThresherK
@JMG: Can we split that into Foreign and Domestic categories?
A Front Pager here (I forget who, sorry) said that Official Washington gets a near-sexual rush from two things: (1) a random military attack, as you mentioned and (2) announcing a bipartisan commission on reforming Social Security.
D58826
ot but economy only added 98k jobs last month. I thought Der Fuhrer was going to add millions.
OzarkHillbilly
@hovercraft: Yeah! A Republican would never be ferried by a fighter jet to an aircraft carrier with a “Mission Accomplished” banner on it’s superstructure!
hovercraft
@D58826:
Well you see, the thing is, February’s’ incredibly strong job numbers were a result of Twitler’s brilliant leadership, but March’s anemic numbers were a hang over from Obama’s anemic, terrible economy. Yes that’s it, that’s what happened.
hovercraft
@OzarkHillbilly:
Shrub was not spiking the ball or anything he was simply displaying his patriotism in public, surrounded by the troops. The strutting, hardware on display and the codpiece were incidental, not meant to send any message. Honestly.
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
Personally, I snark BECAUSE of the troops in harm’s way, who deserve better than to be used as playthings to assuage our anxieties.
Dread
Yes, but stuff go ‘splody and Trump look so manly and commanding, who cares about long term consequences, what it actually achieved, or letting yet another president launch the US into yet another possible war without Congressional authorization.
Seth Owen
@Raven: I believe the Turks confirmed it was sarin. So who do we believed? Some dude who deduces it wasn’t satin based on some training exercise he claims he underwent? Or on the ground tests by an allied government plus videos taken at the time that show classic symptoms of nerve gas casualties?
Redleg
@John Cole,
I especially like your bit about the “butter bar.” Been there and done that. After graduating from Officer’s Basic Course, in my first field exercise with my new field artillery battalion, I forgot to strap my protective mask back on after I dismounted the vehicle. Within a minute, our battalion S-3 did a drive-by CS attack on us and the canister landed in between me and the humvee containing my mask. My platoon sergeant turned to me and said: “See Lieutenant, you’re already learning some important lessons.” Yes indeed.