So, as it happens, I’m delayed (with thousands of others) by bad weather at the scene of yesterday’s United Airlines crime against a human, O’Hare Airport. Without exaggeration, I can say that it is the talk of this place — I’ve overheard dozens of conversations about it as I walked around killing time.
Patrick Smith, who runs the Ask the Pilot blog has some insight into this incident. One observation I’d make is that it’s about time that a mainline carrier like United got a black eye for some of the shit their commuter junk airlines pull. My experience with the commuter airlines is that many of them seem institutionally unable to keep a schedule, and alarmingly casual about cancelling flights.
That said, I’m wondering if the real reason this guy lost it is because he had just paid $18 for a call cocktail at a bar that doesn’t even have a fucking outlet to charge your electronics. Or maybe he visited a bathroom where none of the “energy saving” sensor faucets would turn on to wash his fucking hands. He might have partaken of some of the truly mediocre, grossly overpriced food available here, such as Wolfgang Puke or Chili’s Diarrhea Factory. Perhaps he had to have his carry ons pawed through by some junior g-man because some other cop wannabe thought he saw something tucked in between the underwear and the teeny tiny toothpaste. In fact, there are so many possible last straws that could have triggered his act of defiance that I can’t even begin to speculate. I’m just surprised that incidents like these don’t happen more often.
Also, spare me the notion that this guy was picked at random. If this guy had any United status – hell, if he even had a goddam UAL credit card – he wouldn’t have been bumped.
Betsy
Honest to God
Pontiac
There is a law about compensating passengers for not giving them a seat when they hold a confirmed ticket and they show up on time.
They’re supposed to be paid in cash on the spot (and in this case the sum was $1350) and booked immediately on another airline, and if that has to be the next day, they’re entitled to a free hotel room and per diem.
CaliMatt
Or maybe he was resigned to all of that, but the thought of doing it all over again tomorrow was just too much to handle. That’s where I would have been.
JPL
I posted Luckovich’s response which you might add to your post
https://cmgajcluckovich.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/lk041117_color.jpg
Tonight before the start of a city council meeting, a group was talking about how not to do public relations, referring to the United incident.
Corner Stone
I offer some mildly neutral non-rebuke of any party involved.
JPL
If United needed the seat for flight staff to return to Louisville, they should have known before passengers boarded. It’s time for United to pay up and shut up.
Doug R
@JPL: Yup. Much easier to handle in the terminal instead of on the plane.
Bnad
To discourage these shenanigans, United should be forced to bump First Class passengers first. Their screams would make this guy’s sound like the purr of a kitten.
Baud
I think the lesson here is don’t go to Louisville.
Cacti
As someone else suggested earlier, as soon as I saw the headlines about someone getting manhandled on a United Airlines flight, my first thought was…
I’ll bet he wasn’t white.
Mary G
This is going to cost them many multiples of $800.
lollipopguild
@Baud: Louisville will be getting in touch with youse. Where do youse think Louisville Slugger(TM) bats are made?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Cacti: Trump’s made it OK to hate on Asians now; see also the young woman who was refused an AirBnB rental here in LA.
Corner Stone
@lollipopguild: Manila?
Baud
@lollipopguild: China?
Trentrunner
Can someone explain the part of the video where, post-hauling away and bloodying, the injured man appears to be walking back down the cabin aisle, is repeatedly saying something (“I have to go home” ?), and then hangs on to the cabin-separation curtain? What the hell was that?
Wag
Nothing to see here. The bigwigs at UAL just had to let the peons in steerage know who’s in charge.
Robin G.
I hope he doesn’t settle in the inevitable lawsuit. Rake them through court and pile on the bad press for all it’s worth.
lollipopguild
@Corner Stone: Close, very close. Downtown Louisville. Say Hello to my little friend! Whack!
Corner Stone
@lollipopguild: I apologize profusely. I didn’t mean any offense, and retract my supposition in full.
lollipopguild
@Baud: I know everything today is made in China, everything of trumps was made in China. Louisville Slugger bats are actually made here in the USA! Downtown Louisville.
Mnemosyne
People who complain about O’Hare have never had to spend any time at LAX. It’s a frickin’ paradise of spacious bathrooms and multiple food options compared to LAX.
True story: when my mother in law and brother in law flew in to LAX for a visit, they ended up wandering all the way down to baggage claim to use the bathroom after they got off the plane because they couldn’t find one closer to their gate.
Sab
Does anyone know if the bumped passenger is okay? He looked severely banged up and concussed.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: Everyone in LA avoids LAX.
MomSense
@Trentrunner:
He looked disoriented and terrified. I want to know what those assholes did to him off camera.
Baud
@lollipopguild: By illegals, I hope.
Shakti
AFAIK, if the dude said he’s a doctor, if he’s any kind of specialist, he loses a hell of a lot more than $1350 or whatever they were offering as compensation. An older guy is often a single practitioner. They usually make informal arrangements with other practices but that is not something that is easy or lightly done.
I’m disgusted by United Airlines.
Mnemosyne
@Trentrunner:
As far as I can tell, he wandered back onto the plane after being taken off because the fucking cops and asshole gate agents couldn’t be arsed to get him first aid, or even keep track of his whereabouts.
That seems to have been the point where they ended up clearing out the whole plane and starting over. The WaPo has a good story about it.
ETA: Link to WaPo story.
Ian
Well, if this gets litigated we have an anti-worker- anti-consumer SC to back up United.
Complete with its newest member, captain freeze to death in your truck.
Steeplejack (phone)
This just in!
Mary G
Glad to see townhalls in Republican districts continue to go well, or not, depending on your POV. Here is a report of karma in action:
Another Scott
@Sab: Snopes has a summary, but no details on his condition.
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
lollipopguild
@Baud: I hate to break your heart but no.
Baud
@lollipopguild: ah well, can’t win them all.
charluckles
Yeah, the part where he wandered back onto the plane completely dazed and saying “please kill me” is going to push this jury verdict into the stratosphere.
JMG
Any Democrat who wants to be President in 2020 could do worse than immediately advocating breaking up US airlines and subjecting them to severe government regulation, including price controls.
Omnes Omnibus
@JMG: I’m down. I used to love to fly.
JPL
@Mnemosyne: If he was unconscious, that would explain his confused state. Wow.
trollhattan
O/T Why does the confederacy keep winning these battles?
Baud
@JMG: The price control proposal would fail. I think we underappreciate how many people have an irrational hate of regulation.
JPL
If I happened to be a passenger, I might go after United for the cost of the flight and mental duress.
Yarrow
United CEO Oscar Munoz praises gate crew and calls passenger belligerent.
JPL
@Baud: The same folks are fine with zoning, which is a pretty big regulation.
Chet Murthy
@JMG: I’m as appalled at this event as anybody. And b/c of things like this, I try not to fly if I can help it. Cannot remember the last time I flew for personal reasons, and I’ve been able to keep it down to once per year for work. As I say, when friends back East ask when I’m visiting, “I don’t like flying while brown”. So ….. that said,
(1) ISTR it was the deregulation of the airlines, that produced the current situation wherein middle-class folks can fly at all
(2) re-regulation would inevitably raise prices. Again, I recall a Warren Buffett interview wherein he excoriated the airlines, for having overall lost money since the beginning of commercial aviation. They’re making $$ now, but that’s a new phenomenon, he was saying. [He had a lovely gibe about how, if he’d been there when the Kitty Hawk took off, as a good capitalist he’d have been forced to shoot it down (it was in jest)]
(3) the thing that a Dem really oughta do, is get us moving on better rail. Maybe not cross-country, but sheesh, better than what we have for regional. The flight that man was bumped from was 300mi, ffs. 5hr drive. Easy train commute.
(4) OK, that said, yes, the airlines need to be regulated much more than they are today.
different-church-lady
Maybe the real reason is he paid a lot of money to have an airline fly him somewhere at a particular time and then they refused to do so.
Baud
@JPL: People have pet regulations they like. That part of why I said it was irrational.
janelle
@Mnemosyne: People who complain about LAX need to spend some time in LaGuardia.
Bill Arnold
I saw yet more Right Wing Media attacks on Susan Rice today, e.g.
Rice claim on Syria chemical weapons gets ‘four Pinocchios’
I think perhaps it was Adam who conjectured that the Right Wing Media has been attacking Susan Rice because they think that she is a professional and won’t fight back. I hope that her knife work is entertaining, and professional. :-)
(Still not sure what happened last week; still wondering how involved the Russians were.)
Baud
@Chet Murthy:
Here’s a chart.
ETA:. Bad link
different-church-lady
@Yarrow: The staff always does everything right.
Until there’s viral video of them doing everything very wrong, that is:
Aleta
He should have had medical attention immediately after his head was rammed into an arm rest. (The video is hard to watch closely, but he appears to be momentarily knocked out at that moment ) No United employee steps in.
People don’t fall for the voucher offer so much any more. It may only apply to full price fare, its timing is limited, and then it expires. It’s more like an invitation to give them more money.
A United CEO in O’Hare who suddenly had to get to Kentucky would be flown privately. It would take an hour. If it’s a priority, no reason not to fly a four person crew down instead of force out passengers whose tickets had been accepted when boarding. (I think the provisions for denying passage are for pre-boarding.)
It really bothers me that United made no adjustment for possible disability that might affect any passenger–physical or PTSD or neurological or language comprehension.
ruemara
@trollhattan: The slave labor.
Feathers
What amazed me in watching the video this afternoon (NOT gonna watch it again!) is that the cop doesn’t put down the arm rest before dragging the elderly man out of his seat. The whole thing was awful, but that was when I realized that I was watching someone deliberately making a bad situation worse for their own enjoyment.
The true problem of policing is the militarization without a court martial system. The military doesn’t harbor the fantasy that soldiers and sailors will always do the right thing. They have a system in place to make sure that those who go over the line will regret it. An imperfect system, to be sure, but if you break the rules, you at least know you are risking very bad and permanent consequences. Not so police forces. And we are all the worse off for it.
Baud
@Baud:
Better link.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/
Cacti
If the bumped passenger was a doctor traveling on business, getting bumped probably cost him thousands of dollars.
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Oh, I did too! I flew for the first time in 1956, a couple of months before I turned 14. Three years later, I flew the Atlantic on a return trip from Britain (had taken a ship on the outward journey). It was glamourous and efficient and civilized, and I adored everything about it.
But gradually over the past 15+ years I have developed such an aversion to flying — more accurately, to the whole airport/security theatre/awful airline protocols — that I would literally prefer to drive anywhere in North America than get on an airplane. I’m not “afraid of flying” in the accepted sense, but it would have to be something both dire and urgent to get me on a plane these days when I have a perfectly good vehicle at my disposal. Traveling to Europe? I’ll make an exception (although those trains-Atlantic ships are looking more and more enticing). But anywhere within the continental US or Canada? Thanks, I’m on the road again.
FlyingToaster
@trollhattan: Real estate prices.
It’s expensive to site any non-robotic manufacturing in places where a lot of people want to live. The factories move south, and then offshore, because they’ll go out of business otherwise.
If your process can be roboticized, however, efficiency will come from being sited conveniently to source materials and transport to market. Then the South will likely lose and the coasts (or near-inland therefrom) will see the gains.
SuzieC
@charluckles: Agree, but airline’s despicable lawyers will use this segment to argue that he was mentally ill.
Feathers
@Aleta: Yeah, someone on the previous thread asked why nobody got off the train after being told there was another train directly behind the one they were on. “Because you’ve lied to them too many times and they don’t fucking believe you. That’s why!”
Mnemosyne
@charluckles:
That’s what the aviation writer at Forbes thinks. I’ll bet United is desperately trying to reach the passenger and get him to settle before he can even file the lawsuit.
trollhattan
@FlyingToaster:
Yeah, likely, that and “right to work.”
I can attest Rancho Cordova isn’t a high-rent area, but anyhoo, it’s a historic business in the area. We once had two Air Force bases, one was just down the road from Aerojet.
efgoldman
@janelle:
Nobody human needs to spend time in LaGuardia
Except Amber Asswipe. He and his brood and “advisors” should go there instead of hell.
trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
“Have you ever wanted your own 757? We can do that.”
Sab
@Cacti: Not to mention health issues with his patients.
Mnemosyne
@trollhattan:
Good luck finding enough engineers willing to relocate to Alabama. I’m seeing a whole lot of H1-B requests in their immediate future.
Baud
@Mnemosyne: Huntsville has a pretty well developed space industry IIRC.
Aleta
@Feathers: I think their first offer was $400 voucher and a 3pm flight the next day, so entire work day lost. Many jobs don’t allow that. An employee, even a dr., can be penalized in wages or absentee records. Currently immigrant dr.s, if he is one, are already under a lot of stress from employers.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
If you think that LAX or ORD are bad, try Union Station. Two smallish restrooms in the entire place, one at either end, one end usually closed. Of course it’s always the one on the end you are at and the line for the other can be seen as you are walking/running towards the other one. Back when it was only Amtrak, no Metro or Metro Link (which have restrooms) it might not have been bad. Now when it is as crowed an area as any terminal at either airport, it’s pathetic.
FlyingToaster
@trollhattan: It’s just higher rent than Huntsville. Which still has the huge military presence it had when my uncle was stationed there. And NASA.
Mnemosyne
@SuzieC:
I think that’s going to be a hard argument to make while blood is running down the guy’s face from his head injury.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Baud:
Boo! We’re nice people. Just a little weird, considering what we’re surrounded by…
Mnemosyne
@Baud:
Given recent electoral events, would you voluntarily move your family from California to Alabama?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Mnemosyne:
I’ve done O’Hare a lot lately. American’s business class lounge is a hellhole, but the Flagship is top notch. I get LAX next month for Australia – I think I’ll hibernate in the DAL SkyLounge there.
lahke
@trollhattan: Yeah, my sister worked at Aerojet and just retired from there. I gather the company made a lot of bad decisions to get them where they are today.
Bill Arnold
@Feathers:
Interesting point well stated. A quick search found this: Armed Not Militarized: Achieving Real Police Militarization (2016, Berkeley Journal of Criminal Law) which looks interesting (just skimmed it). Sample:
FlyingToaster
@Mnemosyne: Huntsville has Marshall Space Flight Center and the US Army Aviation and Missle Command; this is the only place in Alabama where engineers would want to live. There’s also a developing biotech sector.
My uncle (the truly crazy one, alas) was stationed at Redstone Arsenal. Which is the hub of all of the aforementioned activity.
BruceFromOhio
Southwest through Midway. More mall, less bullshit. Good popcorn. And there are lavatories everywhere.
Yarrow
@different-church-lady:
The statement you linked is what the CEO Munoz put out today. The bit I linked is from a letter Munoz sent to United employees tonight. So after that milquetoast CYA statement he made it worse in his letter.
Luthe
@trollhattan: Lack of unions. The South has a love of right-to-work laws and a hatred of unionization. So the labor is cheaper there and the rules are more lax.
Omnes Omnibus
@Luthe: Doesn’t Nissan run a plant staffed entirely by temps?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@trollhattan: When I was a kid they used to test those engines out by where I grew up.
Ruckus
@Feathers:
That was me. It is a commuter train and runs approx every 8-10 minutes during rush hour. I’ve ridden it a lot and never had this happen with packed trains. Not Japanese packed mind you but you do make a lot of new friends very fast. I was in the front train and when I got off I looked in the drivers window and could see the control board. The train has automatic lockouts, that I could see, and will not move if too loaded, he wasn’t lying to us. This isn’t the same as the United guy, not in the least. For one thing I paid 75 cents to ride 25 miles and I was at my stop only about 8 minutes later. I lost nothing except that few minutes. And the sheriffs who did ask people to leave, only asked, no one was forced or carried off.
debbie
@Mary G:
I don’t think there are enough multiples to make this right.
efgoldman
@Bill Arnold:
The US military is not unionized. (It is in some countries).
The US police unions are the most militant, by far, of the few remaining unions.
Somebody else is going to have to do the history of how that came to be.
ETA: Even before Barney Frank ran for congress, and maybe before he ran for Boston City council, he said public service employees should have either civil service protections or union protection, but not both. Barney was hardly an anti-labor conservative.
amk
united seems to be on a PR spree. well done, oscar. double down and make it worse.
rikyrah
United should just Take the L
Write the check
Then move on
Chicago Police Department too.
Raoul
I just flew out of Charles de Gaulle this morning. I’ll absolutely refrain from any negative comments about French people, because on our 6 day trip to Paris and Normandy we had by and large very positive interactions with folks (and a lovely vacation with stunning spring weather).
But that airport. OMFG what an agglomeration of terrible design ideas, overstretched infrastructure, masses of humanity, and bureaucratic idiosyncrasies. I’m happy to say that MSP is one of the really good US airports, and it makes being based here and paying for the Delta hub capture kinda worth it.
United seems to have not exactly recovered from the nasty culture that trickled down from recently retired CEO Smisek, who it appears kept all the worst parts of Continental and United in the merger.
rikyrah
@Yarrow:
He is a 69 year old doctor.
There is video of his beating.
You will not win the PR war on this.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
There’s still some confusion about that — Chicago PD says it wasn’t them, but the airport police won’t confirm that it was only airport police at the scene. Did they get the air marshalls involved or something?
TKH
New marketing slogan for United: Welcome to the hostile skies!
If what happened there is a result of “following procedure”, the the procedures are fugged up and the CEO is ultimately responsible for the procedures (I know, I know, I keed).
More time with the family for Mr. Munoz!
Bess
I’m feeling sorry for United. They obviously are having problems dealing with passengers taking up all their seats.
We should help them out and create as many empty seats as possible over the next year by flying other airlines when possible. It’s the least we can do.
Yarrow
@rikyrah: Me? I’m not doing any PR for United. They suck. Just posting what a dumbass letter the stupid United CEO sent to the employees today. The man has no concept of how the company looks to the world.
Oh, and this bit from the WaPo article Mnem linked above is just amazing:
Oh.
Raoul
@Aleta:
I’ve shied away from travel vouchers for years, but at least one US airline now gives out prepaid gift cards in either one of the popular retail brands or (I think) a VISA prepaid? IOW, not tied to the airline or restricted. Pretty much cash-equivalent, just have to watch out if there’s an expiration date.
Steve in the ATL
@trollhattan: Huntsville has by far the smartest workforce in Alabama. Sounds like “tallest midget” at first blush, but there are actual rocket scientists there. And land in HSV is a whole lot cheaper than anywhere in California. Plus I guarantee that Alabama offered massive tax breaks.
Also, the Confederacy may have won part of the battle, but it’s losing jobs from Virginia, where its capital was.
Nonetheless, fuck that company for doing this.
Yarrow
@rikyrah: Me? I’m not doing any PR for United. They suck. Just posting about the stupid letter the oblivious United CEO sent to the employees today. The man has no concept of how the company looks to the world.
Oh, and this bit from the WaPo article Mnem linked above is just amazing:
Oh.
amk
Yarrow
@rikyrah: Me? I’m not doing any PR for United. They suck. Just posting about the stupid letter the oblivious United CEO sent to the employees today. The man has no concept of how the company looks to the world.
Yarrow
Also, too, this bit from the WaPo article Mnem linked above is just amazing:
Oh. I’m sure they’re feeling good about that decision now.
Yarrow
Also, too, this bit from the Washington Post article Mnemosyne linked above is just amazing:
Oh. I’m sure they’re feeling good about that decision now.
Origuy
@Raoul: I flew through CDG once on the way to Moscow. I was in this enormous terminal concourse with glass walls. Cold, of course, and with no place to put restrooms. You had to go all the way to the central terminal to pee.
Yarrow
I have no idea why this comment keeps getting disappeared but apparently Munoz was honored as “Communicator of the Year” by PR Week. That’s just priceless.
Mnemosyne
@Yarrow:
She’s addressing Munoz, not you. ?
Davebo
@Yarrow: No, he probably just doesn’t care all that much.
There are only 3 majors operating in America these days. Want to get somewhere (especially out of Chicago or Houston, the 3rd and 4th largest cities in the country) United is not your only choice technically but realistically it is.
Omnes Omnibus
@Origuy: Fly into London or A-dam and TGV to Paris. Advice is pre-Brexit, of course.
Yarrow
@Mnemosyne: Probably should have chosen “he” or “Munoz” then. Or even “United.”
I have no idea why this comment keeps getting disappeared but in that WaPo article you linked there was a line that said that Munoz was given the C o m m u n i c a t o r of the Year award from P R Week. (spacing out words in case some of those are the culprits). That’s just priceless.
debbie
@Yarrow:
I just heard that remark on the local news, followed by a statement that they were clearing a seat for a United employee. When did employees get this kind of priority?
Betsy
@FlyingToaster: there are ocean ports all over the South, you know
Such as the largest naval base in the world
Mobile .. Miami .. Savannah .. Wilmington .. And so on
The Mississippi too, hello
Mnemosyne
@Yarrow:
It’s rikyrah. She has a style that she’s been using for years. If she’s actually mad at you personally, she’ll let you know. ?
Davebo
@Omnes Omnibus: The Thalys from Amsterdam to Paris is a great train ride!
Yarrow
@debbie: They were airline crew who needed to be in Louisville for a flight tomorrow morning. Pilots have FAA required time where they can’t be in transit X hours before they fly a plane. So they had to get the crew to Louisville on that flight or the plane tomorrow wouldn’t be able to go.
I’m not justifying what happened at all in any way. But that’s supposedly why they gave those particular employees priority. It’s hard to believe that the airline policy is actually to bump paying passengers to move crew.
Barbara
We have stopped flying anywhere that is less than a six hour drive. It’s just too unpleasant. Sometimes we go even further in our car (with a bonus of not having to rent a vehicle on the other end). As to the vouchers, not everyone travels regularly enough to make them worthwhile. United should give vouchers to people with a lot of miles, who they know travel frequently on United.
ETA: They should really just be forced to give cash. Somehow that concentrates the mind to actually improve things operationally.
Scamp Dog
@Baud: Yep. It has the Army’s Redstone Arsenal and a NASA center. Because of those, there are a lot of contractors and some manufacturing.
debbie
@Yarrow:
Thanks. They left that out of their reporting.
Omnes Omnibus
@Davebo: I know from trains. Or at least, a night in London or A-dam is not a bad price to pay for an easy entry in to PARIS!
cynthia ackerman
Some questions about the second video with the injured man repeating, “I have to go home.”
I work in EMS, and the mechanism of injury (head slammed into an arm rest across the aisle, resulting inloss of consciousness and facial trauma) and repetitive, disoriented behavior following, is a huge red flag for a closed head injury.
I’ll be curious in coming days to see if this guy had a brain bleed courtesy of a completely misguided execution of bad or no policy.
eemom
United fucked up — BIG TIME — an eefamily vacation a few years back. I hate to fly now, also.
But this thing today was unspeakable. I hope that poor man sues the SHIT out of them. Bankruptcy-league shit.
EdinNJ
Well, after reading this thread, I’m REALLY looking forward to my Chicago trip tomorrow (LaGuardia to O’Hare)! Not United, though!
Lizzy L
I hope UA loses lots and lots of money over the next six months, as people refuse to book with them. My last experience flying with UA (round trip from SFO to Grand Rapids, MI) was awful, both ways. Missed flights, lost luggage, ugh. (Some great employees, I have to say. People who tried hard to make it right.) Planning to avoid them whenever possible.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: I can’t function at your level of anger. Doesn’t mean I am not angry. I just need to sustain it for years. I can’t do it at the level that some of you do. Not without sacrificing my humanity.
Yarrow
@cynthia ackerman: Yes. Agreed. I hope he’s okay. Head injuries can result in the patient looking disoriented but okay and then deteriorating and even result in death. I hope it’s not that serious. He did look really awful and very disoriented.
chopper
@eemom:
yeah, fuck these fuckers.
Mnemosyne
@cynthia ackerman:
@Yarrow:
I am not in the medical field at all, and even I want to know how in the hell the cops and gate agents let that man wander away without even administering first aid. Was no one supposed to keep an eye on the guy with a head injury that was gushing blood?
eemom
@Omnes Omnibus:
whoopee for you.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: Do you want to be an asshole about it? Or do you want to accept that different people respond differently.
Bill Arnold
@Bill Arnold:
Oy, Just found an AP report suggesting Russian involvement in the attack:
Official: Russia knew Syrian chemical attack was coming (Not sure what apnews.com is, but an identical article with weird url is on ap.org.)
And “The Russians Did It To Help Trump (possibly with collaboration with Trump’s team)” conspiracy story is out there, e.g. Amid news that Russia was behind Syria gas attack, Trump White House pulls plug on briefing (with links that should be clicked)
This sucks if true. It would be some serious Russian hardball; potentially very dangerous (2 states with nuclear weapons), and an extraterritorial move of the sort that Russia has been accused of domestically, e.g. the 1999 Russian apartment bombings. (I don’t know, just saying that there are accusations that it was a false flag operation to boost V. Putin’s popularity.)
Yarrow
@Mnemosyne: Yeah, it’s really shocking. I can’t figure out how he was carried off the plane by police while apparently unconscious yet somehow ends up back on the plane conscious but disoriented with blood all over his face. It just makes no sense at all.
Did the cops let him go? Were the United gate agents too busy talking to the police to notice he regained consciousness and wandered back on the plane? Why didn’t a flight attendant help him? How did they drag him off the plane unconscious and not keep an eye on him until medical help arrived?
The whole thing is awful from beginning to now…I won’t say end because it sure as hell isn’t over and United’s CEO didn’t help anything with his letter to employees.
Mnemosyne
@Yarrow:
I’m sure there are security cameras all over the airport. If that footage gets subpoenaed, somebody’s in deep shit.
eemom
@Omnes Omnibus:
Sure, I’m an asshole — when you show up with this pious, not-as-angry-as-thou bullshit in response to my response to an absolutely horrifying scene of an innocent man being beaten bloody and concussed for not getting off an airplane.
As for “losing your humanity,” I submit that if you watched those videos, and you think that hoping United Airlines gets sued into bankruptcy over what they did to that man is “too angry,” you ain’t got much humanity to lose.
Yarrow
@Mnemosyne: Well, we all know what happens when security camera footage needs to disappear. United pretty much owns Chicago’s airport and they may not want the footage to be made available. Unless the police think it will somehow protect them, I wouldn’t be surprised at all to find out that those cameras mysteriously weren’t working at that time.
Uncle Cosmo
@Baud: Bringing back a memory ~55 years old, from Mad Magazine:
Admittedly, parodying Kipling isn’t a high bar, but even so, not ‘arf bad, Guv’n’r.
(& yes, completely from memory, so if I got a coupla words wrong, talk to my Guangdon attorney, Su Mi)
Greg in PDX
Ok. I am a 30 year travel industry employee. The complete ignorance on the part of all who are outraged by this is ridiculous. Let me just summarize a few key points;
1. United did not “mistakenly” overbook their flight. They did it on purpose. So does every other airline. All of them. And they have done this since well before I was in the industry.
2. The FAA sets minimum rules for what do in the case of too many people showing up. First ask for volunteers. If nobody volunteers, somebody is involuntarily given what is called “denied boarding”. Compensation for this is set by the FAA..
3. People are not chosen “randomly”. There is an exact policy that has to be followed which employees are not allowed to overrule, Unless they don’t mind being terminated. Generally the rule is last checked in, first off.
4. You are not buying a ticket, you are actually and legally signing a contract with the airline that says you will abide by all of the rules in this contract. It is called a Contract of Carriage and can run to hundreds of pages. A copy of it is available at every ticket counter. The fact that you agree to this contract is on your ticket and on the airline website. Again, it has always been this way. I realize that most people don’t know this but that’s how it is.
5. Employees that are being sent to man a flight in a different town always have priority and always have. This is because if they don’t get there in time the flight they were to travel on will be canceled thus inconveniencing hundreds of people.
6. The reason a person is traveling can’t, by law, be taken into consideration because this would require an employee to determine whose trip was the most important. Is the doctor more important than the bride who might miss her own wedding? Than the lawyer who has to be at a trial? Than the cop that has to be on duty the next day or get written up? Plus, people lie. You would be amazed at the number of people on any given flight absolutely, positively have the most important reason for traveling.
7. This is all mandated by the FAA, who reviews that Contract of Carriage. The only way an airline would be at fault is if THEY violated it.
8. Anybody can be asked to leave a plane for any reason if the pilot OKs it. Once the pilot OKs it there is no right of refusal. Even if the pilot is wrong. The only choices are deplane or be removed by the police. The pilot has the final word. He can even tell employees what to do when they are on his (or her) plane. The same as the captain of a ship, or the conductor of a train.
9. The only misbehavior or violations here were on the part of the Chicago Aviation Police. Airlines have no control over what they do. It seems that they are indeed in trouble, based on follow up news reports. But hey, they are an arm of the Chicago Police Department so you can guess the rest.
The bottom line is that airlines do not operate under normal consumer laws, and their employees fall under the Railroad Act which supersedes all local and Federal employee workplace laws. This is why originally all of the airline employees were union , because their only work protections were the employment contracts negotiated by the unions. Since the de-unionization of the airlines things have rapidly spiraled down, and they are truly out of control. I do not like and have never liked overbooking. But the FAA has approved it and they have the final word. If you want that changed you should contact somebody in Congress and try to get the FAA regulations changed. Good luck with that. And if you think any employees are going to get in trouble over this you are wrong. they followed standard procedure that every airline uses to some extent. They would have gotten in trouble if they had NOT done this. Airline passengers do not have the same rights that a shopper at Macy’s does and they never have. After 9/11 it has gotten worse. And under Trump it looks like it will still get worse.
Oh, and my last thought. If all of those passengers on that flight were so terribly concerned about that doctor getting to Louisville,how come not one of them volunteered to give up their seat so that he could go?
Earl
1 – Fuck you and your self-justifying bullshit, Greg
2 – Let’s ban forced removal for overbooking. Make the airlines pay the market price, whatever that may be. If $1350 doesn’t get it done, let them go up in $500 increments. Someone will take the offer.
NotoriousJRT
@Greg in PDX:
Well, I know I feel better. Airlines, the cable companies of transportation. It’s the rules so, fuck off flying public!
Temporarily Max McGee (Until Death!)
@Omnes Omnibus:
Oh, I dunno…I think that piss and vinegar are two of the more effective preserving agents of humanity. When actions like these at O’Hare don’t get you pissed, that’s when you should start to question whether or not your humanity remains intact. And the world is full of actions like these.
Suzanne
@Greg in PDX: Those rules suck. There is no reason to injure an old man. The aviation system should be designed to accommodate passengers comfortably, reasonably, and in a dignified fashion. United FAIL.
amk
@Greg in PDX: So ‘the contract’ does not require for the fucking airline to plan for deputation of staff in advance? No contingency measures on how to sufficient crew to your fucking planes? And ‘the contract’, running into as you say hundreds of pages, includes manhandling a passenger, when he was not at any fault?
eemom
@Temporarily Max McGee (Until Death!):
Glad to see you. How are you doing?
eemom
@Greg in PDX:
Eichmann? I thought the Israelis offed you back in the 1960s.
bmaccnm
@Davebo: And Schipol is a great airport- has its own art museum.
AxelFoley
@Luthe:
The South always did love cheap labor.
Gretchen
@Greg in PDX: Fine. Somebody is “denied boarding”. That doesn’t apply to someone who has already had his ticket accepted, boarded, and taken his seat. If they overbooked on purpose, as you assert, they knew they would need the seat and could have denied boarding before he, um, boarded.
hugely
@trollhattan: combination of lower cost of labor and living in Huntspatch plus “Rocket Science” is actually a thing in Huntsville, with Redstone Arsenal and imported Nazis oh my
hugely
@Ruckus: totes agree – its worse than the bathrooms at Veterans Stadium on game day…
I try and use the toilette in the Amtrak premium lounge in Union Station. Its out of the way but thats part of why its not overcrowded, smelly, dirty like the bathrooms on the concourse. Its a bit of a powerplay / avoid the hoi polloi – but I usually buy a Business Class ticket so you’re entitled etc.
Feathers
And in all of this , remember that 45s budget deficit does away with most Amtrak service, outside of the major corridors . So the airlines will have even more of a monopoly
Gvg
@Greg in PDX: who cares? None of that actually has any relevance to what people are upset about. Businesses that piss off customers go out of business. Businesses that SCARE customers go really fast. Sometimes they go to jail too. The rules you cited don’t mean we have to see the results of the videos.
I am actually madder at the cops but United fucked up multiple times and the CEO still is. If you don’t understand that, you are part of the problem.
Oh overbooking may be allowed but I don’t think it is required, hmm.
Kirk
Y’all spewing hatred at Greg in PDX aren’t paying attention. Like he said, yes, the rules and the covering laws suck, but they also exist and have existed for a long time.
Now there are still a lot of things done wrong here by airline and security that will wind up costing a lot of money. The head injury and failure to follow up pretty much guarantee that.
And there are things in here that are not law but instead policy. For example, pre-2001 the guidance most airlines used for reimbursement for forced disembarkation of seated passengers in this sort of situation was 150% of cost of seat. The extra was the cost of p.r. But instead they capped the offer at about half the cost of the seat.
I’m hoping this tragedy makes united and other airlines reverse their tendency toward failing the customer whenever profit and law allow. But the underlying forced removal was legal.
Kirk
Two quick addendums:
Lawful is not a synonym for right. There are bad laws. And there are good or even necessary laws that are poorly executed.
The laws that give basis for forced debarkation are not the only laws in the world, and it is possible others were violated. Sadly I would not count on it, but it is possible.
The one thing making me wonder this is how the police are disavowing participation.
Lurking Canadian
@Gvg: it is, sadly, relevant insofar as it means the injured doctor probably can’t sue the airline and have any expectation of winning. If they followed the rules, they’re probably covered. I think Mnemosyne is right that SOMEBODY is at fault for not properly caring for the passenger after he suffered a very visible head injury, but even then, who knows? If Psuedo-Justice Gorsuch is asked to give an opinion, I’m sure he’ll find that the head injury is the fault of the doctor for not obeying orders.
Amanda in the South Bay
@lahke: If there’s one thing the south shouldn’t have, its more military bases and defense industry plants. After the 90s BRAC rounds things are very lopsided, too lopsided.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Kirk: You must be fun at parties.
Revrick
When all is said and done, between the horrendous publicity, the CEO’s ridiculous apology, and the lawsuit that is just begging to be filed, the fallout of this mugging of the passenger ought to be that the airlines figure out another way of ferrying their staff. Like saving seats for them. Or chartering a private flight, if need be.
slightly_peeved
@Greg in PDX:
As the LA Times points out here, there’s actually nowhere in United’s conditions of carriage stating that a paid passenger, in their seat, is required to leave the plane so that an airline employee can travel in their stead. Rule 25 covers being refused boarding because of overselling but says nothing about removing already-boarded passengers. Also, the idea that the plane was oversold is probably disputable, given his seat was given to an airline employee. Rule 21 covers the reasons a passenger may be refused service, and the doctor doesn’t fit any of these either.
IANAL, but the right of a pilot to request his removal doesn’t trump his own legal rights, which have arguably been violated even with the generous latitude given to United by their contract of carriage.
Betty
Given all of the above, there really does need to be pressure put on Congress to improve consumer rights vis-a- vis airlines. It appears that the US airlines treat their passengers much worse than those of other countries. Why are people accepting this situation?
Amanda in the South Bay
@slightly_peeved: I’ve come to assume that the word of flight crew is pretty much the same as TSA back in the terminal-you have no rights.
Eric U.
@Greg in PDX: you are a fucking moron. Apparently, those of us that don’t have years of experience in the travel industry know the rules better than you. United did violate the terms of their contract. Where are the police to arrest them? Funny how that works, isn’t it?
I heard the cop that did all the violence also violated the policies he was supposed to be following and has been suspended.
Debbie1
@Cacti: Tut, Tut now. That 69 year old man was NOT manhandled, pulled, or yanked. He may have been de-planed, re-located or involuntarily disembarked, but he was not manhandled, according to United Airlines. And, after all, they would know.
Kirk
@Amanda in the South Bay: I’m boring and pedantic. I get invited to parties because my wife is fun.
On the other hand I get invited to a lot of planning and action meetings. It is useful to be aware of the lines so we can pick the ones we cross.
Kirk
@Eric U.: You should look at United’s contract of carriage, in the section covering removal. There is this clause that basically says violation of any other section of the contract is grounds for removal. And there is a section about overbooking. And the right to limit the number of seats available. “Seats … are not guaranteed and are subject to change without notice.”
It sucks, but because contracts are the whole, not a collection of lines, it’s not Greg who is mistaken about the contract.
I tend to avoid flying, and when I do I try to make sure I have planned alternatives.
Revrick
The Triangle Shirt Waist company was certainly within their legal rights to bolt the doors shut before the fire broke out. But…
J R in WV
@Scamp Dog:
The last time I drove through Alabama, driving to WV from Houston, I was repeatedly passed by European $$$ cars driving as if they were on the Autobahn in Germany.
Then I passed the new, giant Mercedes-Benz factory, and realized two speed limits.
One for the German Engineers and Executives, and one for everyone else. I was going 80 and they went by me like I was standing still. Really! Maybe that’s why this company wants to move there from CA?
Mnemosyne
@Kirk:
IANAL, but this seems like a definite gray area since the passenger was NOT denied boarding or a seat, but was removed from a seat he was already sitting in based on the airline’s mistake of not setting seats aside for the crew, not anything he did. I think United is going to have a hard time convincing most judges that this is the kind of thing that’s normally covered by their terms and conditions.
louc
There’s a smear story in the Louisville Courier-Journal about this doctor’s shady past of dealing in prescription painkillers. What does that have to do with what United did? Absolutely nothing. Classic victim-blaming. Wonder who leaked the name?
The story also said he came to the US from Vietnam in the 70s. That would be the boat people era. I wonder if he suffers PTSD and that’s why he had such a visceral reaction.
Kirk
@Mnemosyne: Except of course for precedent. It has been done for at least 45 years – I was 12, and my dad who worked at the time for a competing airline told me how it worked. Now we got good comp because as I said back then airlines paid what I now call a PR tax. But we got pulled from the flight so aircrew could make their duty times.
I have a friend went through threatened to sue, but he said his lawyer advised him to save his money. Could be several reasons for that advice, but it’s a data point.