The amazing thing here is that for a beat — maybe longer — it’s easy to believe this could be real:
That’s via Stephen Colbert, btw, who can hit you with either the broadaxe and the stiletto.
Consider this your reminder that Donald J. Trump is NOT NORMAL.
Yeah — my bleak heart cackled at that, but this is a good day to take a (watchful) rest from fight-or-flight fueled rage and resistance.
May all those for whom this is the most joyous day of the year delight in the hope it embodies. Hey! The rest of us can rejoice as well, for the idea of redemption exceeds any spiritual or religious tradition.
Happy Easter everyone — or, as we in the Athens of America are experiencing it, have a great first day of summer.
Open Thread.
greennotGreen
And for those who don’t place Easter so high on their holiday calendar, time to watch Rise of the Guardians and get your priorities in order!
schrodingers_cat
Back from the Easter brunch feast, full to the gills, and a little drunk, because I had one too many mimosas. I made a working man’s breakfast which everyone loved.
Misal
I used brown lentils instead of 4 different types of legumes.Its basically lentil stew with various toppings. It was a big hit!
bystander
Listened to idiot Thomas Roberts wish Jack Jacobs a happy Easter this morning. At least I had one laugh out of his crappy moderating.
In less than a century, we have gone from a POTUS who warned us that we had only fear itself to fear to a complete moron who does nothing except fearmonger about a country that poses no threat to us.
schrodingers_cat
@bystander:Land of the brave and home of the free has become land of the easily scared chicken littles. Quite a journey from, Fear nothing but fear itself. to Fear everything and everyone, not the right shade of pale.
Tom Levenson
@GrandJury: Thanks for playing. You are just the latest poster child for the delights of a tasty pie filter.
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
Happy Easter to all who celebrate it with faith and/or food, and may you all find Reform chocolate rabbits. Easter’s all about the (edible) swag for me. My mother gave me an Easter basket every year she was alive. She was big on the holiday cheer.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I am waiting for the “I am ultimate Christian, just ask anyone, I am deep with Biblical knowledge with my daughter. “
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@GrandJury: Dude, some Jew temporarily died for our sins and bunnehs! Get with the season, ok?
Tom Levenson
@GrandJury: Oh, I’m not using it. I am merely pointing out that you are predictable troll, and a deeply uninteresting one at that. But knock yourself out. (Here’s a mallet…;-)
schrodingers_cat
Living forever is not exactly a blessing, ask Ashwathama
weaselone
@GrandJury:
You pulled this crap a couple of days ago. Gallows and dark humor is not equal to normalization.
Mike J
We’re going to hit 60F(15.5 in new money) for the first time this year!
Oatler.
Trump jetting off to the Winter Palace at his subjects’ expense on Easter shows us that the holiday has no place in the New Dominion Inc.
Sloane Ranger
Just visited the Stop Trump Coalition UK website and pledged to join the march against Trump during the epic protests that will turn his so-called State Visit here in October into Airforce One landing at a US or RAF airfield in Scotland, a quick helicopter ride to Balmoral and him not daring to show his face outside the estate until it’s time for the same process in reverse.
Hope he likes it there. By all accounts Balmoral does not rise to the level of opulence he is used to.
debbie
@Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho:
My mom continued to give out Easter candy after we reached adulthood, providing we let her first bite off the ears. One never stops humoring one’s mother.
Oldgold
Louse Mensch has a new report out. I am not sure what to make of her. She seems a bit much, but has a good track record for breaking new ground on this story. At a minimum, it is worth reading.
https://patribotics.blog/2017/04/16/mike-flynns-treason-tour-global-russian-propaganda-coordinated-with-trump/
germy
I yearn for the days when shomi would call anyone here who dared question the inevitability of a Hillary landslide win a “pantswetter”
Roger Moore
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
If it was good enough for Lot, it should be good enough for Donald.
pamelabrown53
@GrandJury:
Please, seriously, just please demonstrate a modicum of decency and don’t troll us today.
ThresherK
Back from Easter brunch, at a place that doesn’t do special Easter. So we avoided: The large family tables, and other crowds. The antsy kids, either in sugar rush or sugar anticipation.
And took our mimosas and Bloody Marys in peace.
SFBayAreaGal
Keep making it a great Easter. Stop feeding the trolls with chocolate bunnies and eggs. The trolls will crawl back under the bridge they came from.
bystander
@schrodingers_cat: Speaking of MST3K (at least BC did) I only wish Joel and the Bots could narrate the Trump presidency so it was funnier than reality. I hadn’t thought of the racism of Trump playing chicken with a guy who can only hurt a bunch of funny looking foreigners..
Ruckus
@Sloane Ranger:
Have heard the word Balmoral before know it is a place, could it possibly be a jail, with a dark and secure place that he could be stored? I’m sure we could get a collection going to pay for the 20 watt light bulb on constantly, the lack of heat, the daily gruel slid through a slot……..
trollhattan
@Tom Levenson:
The next sensical post from this one will also be the first. I prescribe a nice chocolate coma for him/her.
hueyplong
@germy: The human mind’s ability quickly to forget can be a cool thing. I had completely lost any consciousness of the concept of “shomi.”
Taylor
Ben Hur (the William Wyler version) is on soon on TCM. One of my ten favorite films.
Watching Barabbas now. How many people know that Anthony Quinn studied architecture, and was encouraged to go into acting by…..Frank Lloyd Wright.
Ruckus
@pamelabrown53:
If this one had any sense of decency it would have turned the lights out in mom’s basement long ago and shut the hell up. But it’s obvious that it likes a good bakery so I’ve long ago opened the doors and let it in, locking the door behind it. I suggest you discuss the issue with cleek and make the same arrangements. It works wonders for one’s BP.
PST
I finally read The Hunt for Vulcan. A great story well told. Sometimes my reading list, which is supposed to be FIFO, turns LIFO, so it takes longer than expected to get to books I want to read, but that was well worth the wait. Thank you, Tom.
Yutsano
@GrandJury: “…it is a tale/told by an idiot/full of sound and fury/signifying nothing.”
– some guy named Bill.
germy
@Taylor: Anthony Quinn was a neighbor of W.C. Fields in the ’40s. Quinn’s son wandered into Fields’ pond and drowned. So many Hollywood lives contained sad stories.
Sloane Ranger
@Ruckus: He may well think it is. It was bought by Prince Albert for Queen Victoria and has had only minimal refurbishment since so the electrics probably aren’t up to much and also very cold!
If he brings the male spawn, however, they might be impressed by the stag’s heads mounted on the wall.
SFAW
@hueyplong:
Beat me to it. Only thing missing from idiot’s comment was a swipe at “markymux.”
Didn’t “shomi” get banned before, for being (among other things) what he’s displaying today?
Sab
@Mike J: We hit 80 yesterday and we’re on the Canadian border (or would be if there wasn’the a lake.)
SFAW
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
He knew her, eh? (I assume that’s what you were going for.)
germy
This will be a good summer for the ticks. Lots of spring rain. My neighbor had lyme, had to go through a course of antibiotics.
What is the deal with Sears? I went last week to find some yardwork supplies, and it’s stripped down to almost the bare bones. The “outdoor” section barely has anything. Is this the last hurrah?
Taylor
@germy: Watched Death Watch last night. There’s a scene with a kid playing soccer, that’s Romy Schneider’s son. Killed in a tragic accident a couple of years later.
Buttermilk Sky
Also HM’s corgis have the run of Balmoral, and trump is terrified of dogs. Should be funny.
germy
@Taylor: A few weeks ago we caught “The Uninvited” on our antenna TV (Ray Milland, 1940s) and I was impressed with the young lady who plays the daughter. I looked her up on wikipedia and Jesus! what a sad and short life.
Sloane Ranger
@Buttermilk Sky: He he.
Achrachno
@germy: The CEO (or whatever) of the holding company is some sort of libertarian flavored wingnut. He’s busily running the whole operation into the ground. The other branch (K Mart) is closing stores right and left. Sears can’t be far behind.
amygdala
@Sloane Ranger: I’m sorry for inflicting him on you, but have all faith that he will be properly (and hilariously) mocked by the locals.
germy
@Achrachno: K Mart actually used to sell quality items. I haven’t seen a K Mart in our neck of the woods for a few years now.
GHayduke
Ran 20 miles this morning. 50K is in 6 weeks (portland OR) Ate leftover lasagne for a PWO lunch. Nice day in MN.
liberal
@Oldgold: she’s a fucking idiot.
ThresherK
@germy: Wait, your local Sears is still open?
Among other things, Lampert has set separate departments to battling each other:
Hey, if I’m a paying passenger on a cruise ship in trouble, I don’t want the navigators, stokers, radiomen, bridge, and lifesaving crews to work towards the same goal!
PS At an Ace store I noticed there are Craftsman label tools. I guess he couldn’t fck that brand reputation totally up, but if you can get them anywhere, not just Sears…
Ruckus
@germy:
I think the most money K Mart has made in a long time was/is selling the properties that they sat on. One by where I work was closed, 1, 1 1/2 yrs ago. It’s now being demolished for apartments/condos/real businesses.
@Achrachno:
Running it into the ground sounds a lot slower than he seems to be trying. It’s more like he’s attached it to a Saturn V rocket, to see how fast he can prove his chosen political concept is worse than useless bullshit.
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
Gail Russell. I had a book of Gail Russell paper dolls when I was little.
She and Marilyn Monroe (and, with a few years tacked on either end, Judy Garland) were all more or less contemporaries, all born in the 1920s, died in the 1960s, all with debilitating substance abuse problems. Hollywood was rough on beautiful and talented actresses of that generation.
J R in WV
@GrandJury:
Thanks SO much for you insight! Helping to normalize trauma, like you are here, is invaluable for all of us.
Where did you learn your english? It seems pretty good, but your errors/idioms are atypical of native english speakers. best of luck with your bosses!
Thanks for trying, tho.
Adam L Silverman
@GrandJury: That’s Dr. Maskirovka to you. Thank you for your support.
germy
@ThresherK: We still have a sears, but the clothing dept seems to be the only dept actually containing… products.
The outdoor/yard dept (or whatever they called it) looked more minimalist than an apple store.
And of course the employees look shellshocked.
Adam L Silverman
@germy: The guy that became CEO is an extreme libertarian who believed the best way to run the company was to pit every section head, director, and manager against each other in pursuit of profit. As a result there was a very quick and ugly race to the bottom where even within the same store the different department managers were competing against each other. What’s left is a stripped down mess.
germy
@Adam L Silverman: I guess the dept that sells jeans beat the dept that sells lawn and garden tools.
Win!
———
Let’s run gubmint like a biznisss
Adam L Silverman
@GHayduke: My quads got sore just reading that.
Adam L Silverman
@germy: Unfortunately he also destroyed Lands End.
Ruckus
@ThresherK:
The local Sears is still open here. Hadn’t been in years, walked in about 6 months ago and was amazed at how much it looked like a very badly run farmers market. Each section was obviously being run by different people, some looked professional, some looked like they were put together by two arguing drunks. Signage either looked professionally done or by Miss Manners 2nd grade class. How this moron Lampert thinks this works is way above my pay grade to figure out. Or should that be below?
Origuy
@Ruckus: Balormal Castle is the royal family’s main residence in Scotland. The Queen goes up there in August. Most of the rest of the time it’s open to visitors. It’s not a jail, although during Albert and Victoria’s reign some courtiers thought of it that way. They had to be in cold, rainy Scotland instead of London, which at least had things to do.
SiubhanDuinne
@Adam L Silverman:
Burn!
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman:
I haven’t bought anything from LE in a few years now because the quality and consistency went noticeably south, badly.
Adam L Silverman
@SiubhanDuinne: I have to make a payment on the alphabet soup every month, so I might as well get some use out of it.
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: You and me both.
Ruckus
@Adam L Silverman:
Sears owned Orchard Supply Hardware (west coast chain of hardware stores) from 1996 to 2011 or 2012 and I think he ran that into the ground as well but it seems to be doing better after he kicked it to the curb and it may survive. Good place, in some ways far better than Sears ever was.
rikyrah
Education Secretary Betsy DeVos Withdraws Obama-Era Student Loan Protections
Ryan Kilpatrick
Apr 12, 2017
President Trump’s Education Secretary Betsy DeVos undercut student loan protections on Tuesday that were put in place by the administration of former President Barack Obama.
The Obama policy memorandums withdrawn by DeVos required that the government’s Federal Student Aid office do more to help borrowers manage or discharge their debt, Bloomberg reports.
DeVos said in a press memo that she was rescinding the previous administration’s list of demands to “demonstrate sound fiscal stewardship of public dollar” and limit the cost to taxpayers. The move came after a letter from industry lobbying National Council of Higher Education Resources asking Congress to alter or delay the Education Department’s changes.
Then-President Obama issued the guidance after a wave of student loan defaults and allegations that lenders were providing false information, charging unexpected fees and cheating borrowers out of repayment rights.
The guidelines also aimed to reduce awarding contracts to firms who mistreated or misled borrowers. The current contracts are set to expire in 2019.
Ruckus
@Origuy:
I actually did know that, I was hoping that maybe as in many castles there is a dark and dank basement, the sort of place the hoy paloy would stash the peasants that bothered them the most and that he could sort of get lost there. Forever. After some of things the English have done for the rest of the world over the last few centuries, this could be their way of saying thanks.
Adam L Silverman
@Ruckus: It is amazing how many times these ideas are shown to have no empirical validity and then they are tried again and again and again.
debbie
@rikyrah:
A despicable woman.
Adam L Silverman
@Ruckus: You are referring to an oubliette, which literally translates as a small place of forgetting. Many Scottish castles had them and they were often positioned so the smells from either the kitchens and/or the dining room would waft into the oubliette to further torment the prisoner.
SFAW
@Ruckus:
He doesn’t. He’s just there to make some $$$ for himself. The locals (i.e., people that worked for Sears) call him “Fast Eddie” (and not in an endearing way), and have wished him gone for years, because of the destruction and fucked-up-ed-ness that he has wreaked on Sears. Not sure how he still has his job, although I assume it’s because the Sears board is bought-and-paid-for. Or maybe they’re just as stupid as Shitgibbon.
Cacti
@rikyrah:
For the millennials who were either too pure to vote, or chose Trump to “send a message”, I say: good luck with your student loans, kiddos.
bystander
@germy: Saw a doc about WC that said Fields was so distraught that he had the pool filed in and landscaped to try and erase the painful memory.
I didn’t know about Anthony Quinn and FLW, tho.
Speaking of sad, is it just me or has BJ been pretty sad today? I mean Cole’s Irie thread had me in tears. I’m not going to hang out with you guys if you’re going to make me cry.
It is ok, however, if you want to make GrandTheftAuto cry. He’s harshing my vibe.
chopper
@GrandJury:
so a guy who keeps using the term “orange fart cloud” is demanding others be more serious. makes sense.
SFAW
@Adam L Silverman:
With the Rethugs waging a 30-plus year war to destroy public education, and Fox actively working to make people stupider, I’m sometimes amazed that the country has continued to survive. Of course, that was before an outright moron got “elected.”
Villago Delenda Est
@Taylor: Ah, Steven Boyd looking longingly at the clueless Charlton Heston!
Corner Stone
@ThresherK:
I have a few toolboxes full of Craftsmen pieces, probably over 90% of them more than 20+ years old. They are solid, good quality tools that I used frequently for years but much less so nowadays. The newer ones seem to feel differently for some reason. Excuse me while I adjust this onion on my belt.
I know other brands have gained market share over the years but I have had little reason to invest in new stock.
Antonius
BTW, Tom, just finished “The Hunt for Vulcan”. Nice work.
Corner Stone
Regarding Sears stock, SHLD, it has had a sharp rise in March, mainly due to large investor purchases, including Lampert. I keep expecting the Mother of All Pump N Dumps and the share price to crater when filings report they are ditching their ownership but it hasn’t happened yet.
dww44
@Adam L Silverman: Is there any chance he will spin it off and let someone else run it/own it?
Adam L Silverman
@SFAW: As I’ve written here several times, and actually used in a briefing last year: “you can’t stop the signal”. It is very, very hard to kill ideas. Even demonstrably bad ones.
Adam L Silverman
@dww44: I have no idea.
Roger Moore
@Achrachno:
In fairness, they’re in a very tough market; retail is in real trouble right now. But he as some kind of bizarre pseudo-Darwinian idea where he abdicates his responsibility as a decision maker and forces the different departments within the store to compete with each other for the company’s dwindling resources. I don’t think he gets the idea that part of the attraction of Sears is that it’s a one-stop shop, so that forcing the departments to compete is destroying their value.
Spanky
@bystander:
It’s a holiday, and brings back old memories. And it seems (in my family, at least) that it’s the time of year for dying. I don’t know why.
You say that like it’s a bad thing. And it’s not. Not always.
Enough! That stuff should stay on the last thread. On that we’re agreed.
Spanky
@chopper: “Orange fart cloud” originated either with Betty Cracker or efgoldman, IIRC. Won’t be the last commenter to employ the term, I hope.
Roger Moore
@ThresherK:
They recently sold off the Craftsman brand to Stanley Black and Decker.
Ruckus
@Adam L Silverman:
There is a limit to how much any one human can know and understand. Most of us will never come close to finding that limit.
There is no limit whatsoever to the amount of stupidity and moronic bullshit that any one or any group of humans can believe. And they will continue to prove this on a daily basis.
Achrachno
@germy: The K Mart near me just closed last month. It had been deteriorating for years — disordered and with generally declining product quality. But, I’d still go there periodically because it was the closest dept. store and if you looked closely enough (and stayed away from certain house brands) you could often find decent stuff at reasonable prices. But, I often had the impression that employees were treated poorly and just didn’t care about the place as a result.
Immanentize
No joke, Tom, about first day of summer. I’m just north of Boston and it’s 87 degrees. I sure hope it cools down tonight for tomorrow’s runners….
SFAW
@Adam L Silverman:
Kind of a higher-brow version of Cokie’s Rule.
SiubhanDuinne
@Origuy:
Balmoral is only about 60 miles from Glamis Castle. Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother was born and brought up there, and it is still owned by her family (thus, by the Queen’s cousins).
Glamis is legendarily haunted in many ways. The real Macbeth didn’t live there as Shakespeare had it, but the real King Malcolm was actually murdered there in 1034. There are dozens of stories. Some of them are probably the result of overindulging in the postprandial port, but others seem to have some basis in historical fact:
As Donald is highly superstitious and suggestible, not to mention germophobic, I recommend a nice private tour of Glamis for him. He would shit himself into a stupor.
Spanky
Is it nitpicking to point out that “he rose on the third day” amounts to a time span from Friday 3PM to Sunday dawn – say 6AM . Not even 40 hours. How do you get three days out of that?
SFAW
@Immanentize:
It’s supposed to be in the 60s tomorrow, I think.
Immanentize
@SFAW: that’s still pretty warm. I think the ideal marathon temp is somewhere in the high 40’s. Preferably without sun. We seem to manage that most years….
Ruckus
@SFAW:
He won’t leave because he owns the holding company that owns Sears and is desperate to prove that no matter how badly people screw up his irrational beliefs or how poorly they carry out his moronic ideals, that his is the way. He is, like all true believers, convinced that he is righteous and it is everyone else who is wrong. And he’s going to live a long and unfortunately not shitty life trying to prove it.
SFAW
@SiubhanDuinne:
Well, that explains things. Sort of.
SiubhanDuinne
@Buttermilk Sky:
Is this true? Not doubting you at all, but I’ve just never heard that. I know, of course, that he’s one of the very few presidents not to have pets of any kind (the others, FWIW, were Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce, and Chester A. Arthur, and yes, I did look it up) but didn’t know he has a fear of dogs.
Villago Delenda Est
@rikyrah: Because her parasite, vampiric family lives to suck the blood of the living.
Wipe them out. All of them.
Roger Moore
@SFAW:
One of the worst things that’s happened in American corporate governance is the extent to which CEOs have control over the board of directors. It’s gotten to the point that it’s hard for shareholders to step in and wrest control back from an out of control CEO as long as he’s had a chance to stock the board with his cronies. The media isn’t helping, since they treat any attempt by the shareholders to override the board and/or to replace the board with their own people as ridiculous “activism”, as if owning the company doesn’t give them the right to overrule the people they’ve nominally hired to manage it for them.
Villago Delenda Est
@Spanky: By being clueless about how time works. See God and the seven “days” to create the universe.
SFAW
@Ruckus:
Thanks for edumacating me.
Maybe Shitgibbon can name him “Secretary of Retail Policy,” get him out of the CEO biz. Although knowing how those morons think they’re infallible, and able to multitask to infinity, he’d probably still stay on at Sears.
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
There are lots and lots of things that Lampert and his ilk don’t get. Some is because they don’t want to get those ideas, some is because they are incapable of getting them but mostly I think they just like being assholes.
Miss Bianca
@Ruckus: Even the Sears online marketplace is f*’d up now. They are so hard to deal with, I’ve been thinking of taking our store off it, but we are still selling a few things there. It’s probably only a matter of time before it crashes and burns, as well.
Jesus, what is it with psycho CEOs? Why is it after their first fuck-up, they get to sail onward to even bigger and better ones? Why aren’t they huddled under a bridge somewhere with a tin cup full of pencils and a curtain-rod full of sparrows?
raven
Meh, Athens is the Athens of America!
MattF
@SiubhanDuinne: He avoids anything ‘unsanitary’. With, um, rumor has it, certain exceptions.
Mnemosyne
One of the perks of working for the Giant Evil Corporation is that I can go, You know, I wonder if I can find that picture frame I wanted from Disneyworld and just, like, wander in. This place is a much more manageable size than WDW is.
SFAW
@Roger Moore:
Just remember: they aren’t “activist judges” until they do things wingnuts don’t like.
Corner Stone
@Roger Moore:
I would agree to some limit on this. The other worst thing is the “Activist Shareholder” that has the very last penny of EPS on his mind and does not give a darn about the people, communities or future viability.
Sometimes you will run into groups that have a moral or ethical goal, like divestment from countries or industries, but for the most part they are just asshole bloodsuckers looking to squeeze through a damaging change to the company for short term profit.
John M. Burt
@Spanky: All hail the orange fart cloud.
Adam L Silverman
@SiubhanDuinne: Not to mention that it is supposedly haunted by Earl Beardy, who is trapped in a liminal state playing cards with the Devil until Judgement Day.
In the running for the most haunted castle in Scotland is Fyvie. Which has the weeping stain (the crying stone), the Green Lady ghost, and, allegedly, the Devil contained in a special room between rooms. And it comes with a curse the brings blindness and premature death to the eldest son of the Laird of the Castle. Since it was purchased by the National Trust the curse seems to have been placed in abeyance.
Tenar Arha
This is a real news story in the Times of London that I had to Google to verify. The headline & subheading says it all:
SiubhanDuinne
@MattF:
Heh, yes. So he’s probably more scared of having a dog jump up and lick his face all over than he is of having a dog bite him.
MattF
@Adam L Silverman: Those Scots! Just a barrel of fun.
SFAW
@Adam L Silverman:
As long as it’s not Weeping Angels !
Chet Murthy
@Achrachno: I have it from someone knowledgeable who worked there in the retail finance group (== “figure how much to buy, when, and what prices to sell at, and when”) that the place is ridiculously mis-managed. No internal controls, crazy incentives on mid-level leaders, and it gets worse from there. So while it’s true that he guy running the thing’s a piece of work, he’s also incompetent.
Origuy
@SiubhanDuinne: It’s still possible I’ll be going to the area this summer. The Scottish Six-Day Orienteering Festival, held every odd year, is in Royal Deeside, the area around Balmoral and Glammis. I’ve been twice before, to Moray and Oban, but I’ve never been to Deeside. I have to decide pretty soon, though. Tourist housing fills up fast.
SiubhanDuinne
@Adam L Silverman:
Yes, I love the card-playing Earl Beardy story, though I didn’t include it in the Wikipedia clip I pasted. I visited Glamis many years ago, as I assume you did too during your Scottish sojourn. I also recall that Scone Palace has some nice legends attached. But Fyvie is new to me, and sounds lovely :-)
Wapiti
@Ruckus: Orchard got bought by Lowes and is run as a parallel chain, maybe for higher end areas.
Villago Delenda Est
@Miss Bianca: Once you’re in the CEO club, you’re set for life. There are no fuckups that are severe enough to get you tossed out. Which is why tumbrels seem to be the only sure way of culling the herd of morans who think they’re SMRT.
Bess
Being an open thread and all…
Can someone please explain to me why a path to citizenship is the hill that we liberals have chosen to die on when it comes to some sort of normalization for the 10+ million people who are currently without legal standing in the country?
Their votes would be nice, but not making families suffer might be more important.
Why not some sort of semi-permanent visa that allowed them to live in the country as long as they weren’t convicted a serious crime? A slightly-green card that permitted work and access to government services.
SiubhanDuinne
@Origuy:
That sounds like a wonderful holiday! I’m envious!
Origuy
@Wapiti: From what I’ve seen, OSH is pitched more to compete with Ace, while Lowes branded stores compete with Home Depot. OSH stores are smaller and more convenient. Generally better customer service, too.
J R in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
When we toured the castle of Richard I King of France (Richard III king of England, same guy, diff titles) we didn’t get to see anything lower than the kitchen, which was a little dungeon like. But I’m sure there was a real dungeon, with multiple oubliettes, etc.
We declined the opportunities to view the tools of the Spanish Inquisition, which were hidden away, but for a small fee….
Ruckus
@SFAW:
It does take a rather different outlook on life, to study history (or even those around you) and not realize that humans fuck up. Every single one of us fucks up some percentage. Always have, always will. Sort of explains morons because that’s what it takes to think that over the time frame of human existence that while there has never been another perfect person, they are.
Some humans are, in some way, closer to perfect in some aspect than others but there is always a fault, physical, emotional, knowledge, intelligence, humility, acceptance, abilities……… And some of course have major issues in all aspects.
Adam L Silverman
@Spanky: No, nit picking would be explaining that for Jews, of whom Jesus was one, one day goes from sundown to sundown. So technically it was about a day and a half.
That would be nit picking.
J R in WV
@Spanky:
There were no clocks of any sort ! You have Friday, Saturday and Sunday, 1, 2, and 3. How simple was that!
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
The only reason I know what an “oubliette” is, is because there was one in one of the Robin Hood movies. I remember I actually looked it up after the movie because I’d never heard of one before. Hollywood and Balloon Juice, come for the entertainment value, learn something new. WIN!
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: Making everything an LLC didn’t help either. When all the partners or board members had liability for other’s/others’ bad acts, they cared enough about their own butts to keep a lid on a lot of that stuff. Once they were released from being held accountable, they stopped caring as long as the money kept flowing.
Ruckus
@Miss Bianca:
Being as big of fuck ups as they are, I’d bet they’d drop the tin cup, breaking all the pencils, lean over to pick them up and impale themselves on the curtain rod, which is empty because they’d be looking for someone beneath them to catch the sparrows. And also if they caught a sparrow, do you think they’d be smart enough to dress it before trying to heat it over a barrel of stuff they couldn’t set on fire because the butler had always done that?
Adam L Silverman
@Origuy: I used to live in St. Andrews. Go, if you can.
MattF
@hovercraft: You’ve never read Gene Wolfe’s “The Shadow of the Torturer”.
Miss Bianca
@SiubhanDuinne: you just reminded me that I, too, visited Glamis Castle on my one trip to Scotland half a lifetime ago, tho’ I’m damned if I remember anything about it, now.
Adam L Silverman
@SiubhanDuinne: It’s up in Aberdeenshire.
https://www.secret-scotland.com/Attractions/fyvie-castle.html
Thamis the Rhymer (Thomas the Bard, True Tom) is responsible for the curse.
Roger Moore
@Chet Murthy:
There’s nothing “also” about his incompetence; it’s of a piece with his being a nut job. He’s incompetent precisely because he’s a crazy asshole who pits his departments against each other.
hovercraft
@debbie:
Sadly with this administration and it’s TV surrogates, one has to try to keep up with which one you are referring to. But yes, DeVos is particularly odious with her complete lack of knowledge about education paired with her entitled conviction that she knows best. I wish I could say she’s the worst of the lot, but she’s not, though she is positioned to do long term damage to a generation of kids.
Tom Levenson
@PST: @Antonius: I know this thread is pretty dead, but I’ve been away from the ‘net for a while, so my belated thanks! Very glad you enjoyed the book.
Lizzy L
Checking in to say hello and Happy Easter! to the folks who celebrate it.
Yesterday was a bit of a hard day for me: I attended a memorial service for a friend. He was an interesting guy; Mexican, an architect, very acerbic, very smart, did not suffer fools gladly but I really liked him. He was diagnosed with incurable cancer and was gone within 3 weeks. After the memorial I raced home to get to my parish’s Vigil Service, got home at 11 pm, and had to set my alarm because I was scheduled as a lector for today’s 8 am Mass. And yes, I made it, but when I got home I ate and then crashed. I’m only now starting to wake up.
It’s raining here. (SF Bay Area.) Dammit. The drought is over, Jerry Brown said so. I want sun.
I need to ask the local (SF Bay Area) jackals for some (possible) help. I’m the caregiver for a dear friend with multiple medical issues. She’s recently been diagnosed with a brain tumor which is destroying her sight. She lives in assisted living (she’s in the East Bay, San Pablo) and has two cats. Geoffrey is diabetic and needs insulin shots twice a day. He’s a sweet, loving, mellow boy, a brown tabby, about 10 years old. He needs a new home. My friend is broken-hearted, but she can’t adequately care for him. His brother, Spooky, also needs a new home but has no particular medical needs, so re-homing him is not an emergency, but finding a new home (temporary or permanent) for Geoffrey definitely is. Can BJ help? Please, spread the word among your friends. I’m the contact person, and you can reach me at my email address — the front pagers can supply it to you. A foster home, while a permanent one is found, would be fine. THANK YOU.
Adam L Silverman
@SiubhanDuinne: The Fyvie segment starts, specifically, at the 18:15 mark:
Adam L Silverman
@J R in WV:
If you’d told them you were Jewish they’d have brought them right out.
Taylor
@Villago Delenda Est: Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Svensker
An apostrophe is not a plural marker, in English anyway. Nazis is a plural. Nazi’s is a possessive. Just saying.
Ruckus
@Origuy:
OSH is a more traditional hardware store, like Ace but bigger, a bit better laid out and in the case of both the OSH and Ace stores I’ve been in not quite as knowledgeable staff. But the last few times I was in an OSH they had just been cut loose and were on their own, before Lowe’s bought them. BTW I find Lowe’s to be better than HD in pretty much all aspects, but have had some stellar experiences with a few HD employees in several different stores. I’d say HD has poor management, also has some really decent employees.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@J R in WV: Why would the Spanish Inquistion be in France or England, and the Dungeon is just another name for Keep, it’s the building itself, not the cells.
hovercraft
@MattF:
No I haven’t, the reviews when I used the google are interesting, 4+ stars, but the commentary is mixed. Maybe something to add to my summer reading list, do you recommend the series?
Gravenstone
@GrandJury: Derf, do the world a favor and go play in traffic. You won’t be missed.
Jake the antisoshul soshulist
@SiubhanDuinne:
Add the sordid story of
Barbara Payton (1927-1967)
And there is Peggie Castle (1927-1973)
Hollywood ate a lot of its children.
Svensker
@germy:
Me, too. She was so appealing.
MattF
@hovercraft: TSOTT is the first volume in a very very very long series, so I’d say try it– and if you like it, just keep going.
Wolfe himself is an interesting character– in an earlier life, he was an engineer in the ‘food’ industry. He invented the Pringle, ‘the only snack food with negative curvature’. Within the SFF world, he’s considered to be one of the great ones.
Roger Moore
@Bess:
I think there are several reasons. The most basic one is that’s what the activists who care the most about the issue are pushing for, and all parties tend to respond to activism more than anything. Part of the reason the activists are pushing for that is because that’s the deal immigrants got the last time we normalized the status of people here illegally, so they don’t want to settle for less. There’s also a serious objections to having a group of second-class residents who are here permanently but are never allowed to become citizens; that kind of permanent second-class residency has caused serious problems in other countries where it’s been tried. And I think there’s a practical recognition that the people who are most strongly opposed to a path to citizenship wouldn’t accept any kind of permanent residency anyway; they aren’t going to accept anything less than mass deportation.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: @SiubhanDuinne: You guys are reminding me of my trip to Scotland, now…
I was there with my boyfriend of the time – our Grand Tour. 3 months in the UK and various points in Europe. The Scotland thing was my doing, I insisted on it – family heritage, and all. I remember we were on Culloden Moor on a very grey day – no one else around. Spooky ain’t innit. Now, of course, post-Outlander, I doubt that that kind of solitude, which makes communing with the spirits possible, exists there – I bet it’s very crowded with the living, these days.
We also went to Skye. Funniest thing I remember about that trip was the time on Skye – we were staying in a youth hostel, and borrowed a pair of bikes to go riding round the island. Started to drizzle, of course, it being Scotland and all, so we pulled off to the side of the road by some ruins to take a break. Suddenly, we hear…bagpipes. And a guy in full tartan drag appears so suddenly on the ramparts of the ruins that it could have been a ghost, except that most ghosts aren’t making noises like a duck being run over by a vacuum cleaner. The apparition comes toward us, all its ribbons and bits swinging jauntily, and turns out to be the tour guide for the pile (I honestly don’t remember which castle it was). Since no one else was around, he offered to take us round for free. Quite a nice chap, as I recall, tho’ his initial appearance had given us quite a turn.
Ah, good times!
Gravenstone
@germy: I believe Sears publicly admitted recently that they doubted they would survive. 2017.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: Dunvegan has its share of supernatural stories as well.
Jake the antisoshul soshulist
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
There was a French Inquisition.
But not a British one as such.
Catholic countries all had their own.
Protestants might have the equivalent. But they would have called it something different.
Bess
@Roger Moore:
Thanks for the reply. I’m not very impacted by the “that’s how we did it last time” argument. I’m more concerned about the families that are being harmed now.
Many on the right have said that the sticking point for them is citizenship. Which I assume says that they don’t want more people voting for Democrats.
Why not offer a permanent green card solution and see if they will accept it? I suspect there is a lot of desire to get this problem solved by the political types who are worried about creating more animosity from Hispanic and Asian voters. Clearly the Republican party realizes that it’s going to need more voters to replace the white rights who are dying off.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Dunvegan? There’s a joke in there, somewhere…kind of like “Dunroamin”, or in Maggie Thatcher’s case, Dunrulin…
Taylor
@hovercraft: IMO Gene Wolfe’s Book of the New Sun series is the best SF I have ever read. Heavily influenced by Jack Vance and T. R. White, not to mention the New Testament, but as much as anything it’s the writing. it is written as a first-person narrative, but the narrator is untrustworthy.
MattF
@Bess: The thing about naturalized citizenship is that the courts have made it very clear that it’s not reversable, that naturalized citizens have exactly the same rights as native-born citizens (except, oddly, for being eligible to be president). I think that’s important.
Ruckus
@Gravenstone:
You do realize that can be taken at least 2 ways. Neither of them all that bad a concept btw.
Ruckus
@Miss Bianca:
While in the navy our ship docked in Antwerp and on a Sunday morning a nice older man, daper tweed suit, cane and huge handle bar mustache came to the ship and offered to give a walking tour of the city to anyone who wanted to join him. One of the places he took us to was Ruben’s house, which the city bought, renovated and opened as a museum in 1946. That man was 50 yrs older than any of us and he walked us silly, was also witty and fun, what a great way to spend the day, walking around a great town.
rikyrah
@Bess:
Look at what the other side is doing now. They pretended like they were ‘GOING AFTER CRIMINALS’
Remember that?
Now, we can’t go a couple of days without hearing about someone, who is clearly not a criminal being round up.
We have Attorney General White Citizens council talking about ARRESTING FAMILY MEMBERS WHO HELP ILLEGALS.
We have the Private Prison Industry gearing up to put a whole lotta Brown people in jail.
We had a head of HOMELAND SECURITY put forth a plan to SEPARATE PARENTS FROM CHILDREN, and tried to shill why that wasn’t a bad idea.
You really need to stop thinking that there is some middle ground. There is none.The other side wants to get rid of the NON-WHITE PEOPLE, and restrict LEGAL IMMIGRATION FROM ALL COUNTRIES THAT DON’T INCLUDE WHITE PEOPLE.
There is no middle ground. Giving an inch to these people, who clearly want to rid this country of NON-WHITE PEOPLE…is not an option.
You’re being rational and, like a lot of people, want to look for areas of mutual concern, for a possible compromise.
Not possible in this situation.
Tokyokie
@Achrachno: The last K-Mart in the Dallas-Fort Worth market closed a decade or more ago, I think. But K-Mart’s ads still played on whatever FM station was piped through the gym for at least 3 years after that.
Adam L Silverman
@Jake the antisoshul soshulist: England expelled its Jews in the 12th Century. Not all of them went, but most did.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: The ancestral seat of Clan McLeod. The other half of the Isle of Skye is the ancestral home of Clan McDonald, the traditional Lord of the Isles.
Bess
@MattF:
I suppose it’s possible that a permanent almost-green card program could be canceled but I don’t see that as a significant danger.
My basis for this idea is Costa Rica. I looked at living there. As an American citizen I could obtain permanent residency and benefit from everything but being able to vote or hold public office.
Bess
@rikyrah:
I do not believe that every person who is ‘right of center’ is irrational.
Bill Arnold
@Adam L Silverman:
Any links to your writing on this?
(Pretty sure there are usable methods but want to read what you’ve written first.)
Ruckus
@rikyrah:
Given these assholes, compromise is not possible in any situation at this time. They are not rational, they can not be treated as rational, and they can not be bargained with as if they are.
On Friday I took the Metro Gold line train and across from one stop someone had put up 3 ft high letters on their front fence, RESIST. Looked good.
Jim Faith
@Villago Delenda Est: Watched a documentary on the depiction of gays in Hollywood films a few years ago – don’t remember the exact title. It noted that Wyler pulled Stephen Boyd aside and instructed him to play the role as a gay lover would. But they hid this from Charleton Heston because he would have gone nuts.
Adam L Silverman
@Bill Arnold: There are, but it is not an easy, quick thing to do. And it doesn’t always work.
hovercraft
@MattF: @Taylor:
Thanks for the info, I’ll give the first one a try and go from there.
J R in WV
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
The only trip we ever made across the pond was to NE Spain and SW France… The Spanish Inquisition’s instruments were in Spain, and Richard I King of France’s castle was in France. They had a sign specifically informing “guests” that “guests” would not be admitted to the Dungeon beneath the Castle.
We also learned that most fords over the river had two castles, one on either side of the river, to control travel. The Lord [who’s name I have forgotten and don’t care to look up] of the area, which was large, had castles all over his domaine, one day’s ride apart, so that he never had to camp out without a fortress.
I suspect he was a hateful and loathsome person who earned the enmity of everyone who knew about him at all. Hence his fear of spending a night out in the woods with only a troop of armored knights to defend him.
Otherwise, thanks for your information.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Jim Faith: Celluloid Closet?
fuckwit
@Oatler.: You know who else just COULD NOT BE ARSED to spend any time at work in the White House? Shrub.
What is it with Rethugs and not wanting to do their fucking jobs, which in case nobody noticed is a 24/7, operations-style, pager-duty job where you are supposed to live above the store.
J R in WV
@Jake the antisoshul soshulist:
True, they burned “witches” almost everywhere in Europe. I think mostly in order to steal their little plot of ground, little house, etc, etc. Also why the Inquisition mostly seized and tortured wealthy people, not stable hands and subsistence farmers with nothing worth stealing.
Everyone knew that with the Devil’s aid you became rich, right? Innit the way it worked for the Jews, right? So, ok to steal their stuff, after making them confess that they loved Satan, or one of his dark angels.
The paranoid sexual fantasies of the priests of the Inquisition make for very disturbing reading. No wonder the most recent leader of the Inquisition who became Pope was quite strange, with that history behind him.
Pope Frank seems more normal, relatively.
fuckwit
@Corner Stone: We need a law like Germany’s. Boards of Directors MUST by law be comprised of 1/3’s non-management directors, 1/3 management, and 1/3 labor. Imagine unions being on the board of every corporation!
J R in WV
@Bess:
And once upon a time, a long time ago, I would have agreed with that. A long, long time ago.
ETA: Not since Reagan was elected, personally. The first demented President. Ronald Demento, the First. Donald Demento, the Second.
Adam L Silverman
@fuckwit: I’d just like to be able to
.
Bess
@fuckwit:
Perhaps we could form ownership groups open to workers and have the group buy stock in the company. Over time the workers’ organization could control enough stock to influence the board selection.
We now have large retirement groups such as Calpers with large ownership positions.
Tenar Arha
@Bess: The Republican Party and their elected representatives are no longer rational actors. This past election proves that. The opinion polls and the electoral results paint the picture. There is a usually a hardcore of 27% voters overall who will not compromise on anything, and they’re driving the discussion and the party rather than moderates. It’s been happening for years.
And the compromises you’re suggesting haven’t worked with those extremists, they’ve gotten proposals for 60-70% of what they want, but then they tried for 100%. During GWB’s term, up until 2006, immigration reform was on the table, and the far right of the President’s own party torpedoed the discussion. As for the present day Republican Party, the extremists are now also overtly racist and xenophobic, thus driving any moderating voices inside their own party away.
In the meantime, the Republican Party had taught the Democratic Party that compromise gets you nothing politically. I don’t know if that means that Democrats won’t compromise at all, ever; I mean, they’re still toddling along learning how to use opposition to their advantage. But, the base of the Democratic Party is not white liberals anymore, it’s minority women, and if they say no compromise on naturalization or birthright citizenship, then we cannot compromise and we should not compromise. If we (meaning Democrats) are counting on those voters, then that is the cost of their support.
schrodingers_cat
@Bess:
Oh so no path to citizenship is for their own good? Nice logic you’ve got going, there.
Bess
@Tenar Arha:
Some on the right have stated that a path to citizenship is something that they can’t accept. That’s their sticking point.
Why not make them an offer to bring a program for permanent residency which does not lead to citizenship to the table? What would be lost?
—
Again, I do not accept the belief that all people right of center are irrational. The “27%”? Yes, largely irrational. At least largely unwilling to compromise.
But all we need is a majority. (A majority a bit larger than 50% in order to get around the Electoral College and dispositional assignment of Senate seats problems.)
Bess
@schrodingers_cat:
Try rereading with comprehension.
schrodingers_cat
@Bess: My reading comprehension skills are just fine. You are the one who wants to compromise with people who voted for the current chief executive, whose only coherent philosophy was that all immigrants are moochers or worse.
Your policy to “not make families suffer” will create a permanent underclass. Throwing those people under the bus is not going to win you any brownie points for being a good liberal from the restrictionists on the right. The first travel ban showed just how precarious even a GC holder’s position in this country is.
Ruckus
@Bess:
I know you did say electoral college but did you also notice that the Democratic candidate did have a majority? There are more of us, we just don’t vote in enough shitholes to win the EC.
We have been compromising with conservatives for decades and it’s gotten us where? With dumpf as president. It wasn’t just the 27% that voted for this uninformed, unintelligent, bigoted, self aggrandizing, old sack of shit of a human being, republicans turned out in relatively normal numbers to vote for him. They are all complicit in this takeover of everyone’s government. It’s way past time to stop compromising with people whose goal is to end the breathing of over half of the citizens of this country. None of them will compromise with you unless your idea of compromise is to slash your wrists. They want you dead. They want me dead. Fuck them, fuck their horses, fuck their politics, fuck compromise with them. Read my lips. IT FUCKING DOESN’T WORK. THEY ARE NOT RATIONAL, THEIR POSITIONS ARE NOT RATIONAL, AND THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO ACTUALLY COMPROMISE. THEY WANT EVERYTHING AND THEY WANT YOU DEAD IF THEY HAVE TO TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.
Tenar Arha
@Bess: Again, such a “temporary” non-citizen green-card might have been possible in the past as long as birth-right citizenship was protected. (NB: I think this would never work, but it is something that was actually considered). But, in the present, there actually isn’t a majority for such a compromise. IMHO if this was even what was proffered, I believe Democrats absolutely should refuse such a deal. What you’re suggesting is going around the majority of the Democratic Party to compromise with a minority of the Republican Party. That makes no political or logical sense for Democrats.
Bess
@schrodingers_cat: @schrodingers_cat:
We have a stalemate. Enough of the country opposes citizenship for those who are illegally in the country. And a large portion of them want those individuals thrown out of the country.
I am suggesting we attempt to find a solution which, while not perfect, might lower the damage being inflicted on millions of people.
Yes, there would be a class of people (I’m not willing to call it an underclass) who would not be eligible to vote or hold public office. But they would be able to remain in the country with their families and raise their children. They could freely work and be eligible for Medicare and Social Security.
My preference is that we create a route to citizenship but I understand that I’m not always going to get my way. I wanted a single payer health insurance system but I realized that it was not possible at this point in time so I fully supported the PPACA because it solved many of the problem and offered to possibility of avoiding tens of thousands of deaths a year.
I’m not a member of the purity pony brigade.
schrodingers_cat
@Tenar Arha: My friend’s son who was born in this country asked us whether he was an anchor baby. This was sometime in 2016 during the height of the primary battles, when he overheard all of us talking about T and his campaign rhetoric. My friend is originally from India, and is a chemist for Pfizer.
Bess
@Ruckus:
I know people who vote Republican and who probably voted for Trump. They are not evil people. For the most part we simply disagree along lines of altruism/selfishness.
That’s the 27%. About 51% of us voted for Hillary. 100% – 27% – 51% = 20%. Twenty percent of voters who are possibly reachable. If we could swing only a quarter of them then we could make progress.
By offering to consider a plan which does not lead to citizenship we lose nothing (unless that path is a non-negotiable to you). If enough people buy into a plan for permanent residency then we can put this ICE crap behind us.
We know that many on the right now realize that they need the labor that the “illegals” provide them.
Bess
@Tenar Arha:
I’m suggesting we reconsider our position. We Democrats.
Tenar Arha
@schrodingers_cat: Yeah. My family got here by how it usually happens, the adult “children” came over to work. Then they brought their siblings, and then their youngest siblings came over with their parents coming last, usually. They married and had families here.
It makes no sense to me that anyone would accept anything less whatever the current slurs might be, especially since this has been the primary way we actually assimilated people into becoming Americans. You give people a stake in the country and let them stay with their USian kids, anything less seems unworkable and eventually untenable. (Breaking out the history nerd asides: I feel I must point out that the other ways we assimilated people were conquest and slavery).
Bess
Let me add – I think it’s necessary to get the ‘illegal immigrant’ issue behind us. Whether we allow ICE to throw everyone out or come up with an acceptable compromise we are not likely to solve the rest of our immigrant worker problem until ‘illegals’ are not an issue.
We need to import some workers. We need a program that is fair to foreign workers, American workers, and employers. We aren’t likely to devise a workable solution until we move past our current stalemate.
Tenar Arha
@Bess: Yeah. I actually have one immigrant grandfather, and I wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for him and my other three US citizen grandparents’ parents. Historically, my parents would probably have been smoke. Even trying to think about the alternatives to our current system makes me sick to my stomach because during the 30’s, at the height of America First, my ancestors might have actually been deported, with their American citizen children in tow. Nope. Nope. I cannot.
schrodingers_cat
@Bess:
What about the DACA kids, for whom this is the only home they have known. You want to relegate them to second class status too?
Bess
@Tenar Arha:
We need a good work visa system. I’m not sure how it would operate but it should permit people to come into the country and work if there is a need for their labor.
I can sort of see how a farm/meat packing plant system might work.
Require employers to advertise jobs in a way that US citizens could apply if they desired. Perhaps make employer taxes a bit less for US citizen workers than for imported workers. Create an economic incentive to hire citizens.
Require foreign workers to post a bond (put money in an account) that would pay for their return to their own country if they aren’t working. Prepay the plane/bus ticket out.
Require foreign workers to regularly report their employment status (weekly, monthly?) including money earned and employer number. A simple phone it in on a $10 cell phone, something like that.
If the worker reports no income for a meaningful period (a month?) then they would be required to leave the country for a specified period of time in order to get a future work permit. Seasonal workers could come for the harvest, go home, and return the next year.
Create meaningful, enforced consequences for hiring workers under the table.
Create a system along that line then I have no problem tossing out people who sneak into the country or overstay a tourist visa and work under the table. (Future sneak in. Deal with those here first.)
Refugees. That is a different issue.
Bess
@schrodingers_cat:
I refuses to buy into your ‘second class’ meme. A different class. All the rights of citizenship except voting and holding office. (My impression is that Republicans oppose some sort of legalization because they don’t want to add more voters to the Democratic ranks.)
The DACA children are not here legally. Personally I’d create a system to allow them to become citizens. But I’d rather see them remain as non-voting members that to be hauled off by ICE.
Maybe ten or more years from now, if we created a workable immigrant worker program, the greater voter block would be willing to consider a path to citizenship for those already here. And, I think, within 20 years the general populace will be open to single payer. I’m all about making progress, not accomplishing nothing because it’s not everything we wish.
Successive approximations…
schrodingers_cat
@Bess:
Its not a fucking meme, its the fucking truth. Being a citizen grants you certain rights that being even a permanent resident does not. You pay taxes but you have no say in how you are governed and you could be deported for a minor infraction.Separate but equal does not work, no matter what gloss you put over it.
Your impression is based on what data, exactly?
schrodingers_cat
You want to treat people on work visas like they are criminals. This is your fucking compromise. Fuck off.
Ruckus
@Bess:
Give it up.
They voted for a totally incompetent asshole because they wanted what he promised. That is to fuck over everyone who doesn’t look like them. And millions of people who do. They are not misguided, they are not nice people, dumpf was quite clear about what he was willing and wanting to do. Your arguing that we should compromise with completely vile people is sicking. They had their chance to elect a fairly centrist person who wanted to help everyone. They voted for someone who promised to fuck over millions. You can not compromise with vile people. Your total lack of understanding of the situation has shown me that you are not capable of understanding your enemy. And if you don’t think the people currently in charge of our government are the enemy you are sadly mistaken. I can not make this any clearer for you. Others have tried as well and you can not seem to understand or listen. I explained, I yelled, as did others.
So I won’t be wasting any more of my time trying.
Ruckus
@schrodingers_cat:
This does seem like a total waste of time any longer doesn’t it?
Bess
@schrodingers_cat:
You can fuck off. If you are unable to carry on a discussion without going off the rails then take your sorry ass somewhere else.
I don’t want to treat people on work visas like criminals. I want to see us develop a system that makes it possible to import workers and one that protects them from abuse. If they have to report their earnings and employer then we can assure that they are being paid a fair wage and that their employer is paying their taxes. Including the taxes they withhold from the workers and the employer required taxes.
A properly designed permanent resident visa would protect rights, including not getting deported over a minor infraction. Set the bar at a serious felony, a conviction that results in multiple years incarceration.
Those of us who would like to see a route to citizenship, especially for those who arrived as minors, do not have the political power to make that happen. I’m willing to accept a solution which solves the most critical issues. I’m not willing to watch millions of lives disrupted in the hope that we might have another Reagan type amnesty program sometime in the future. The well is too poisoned for that.
schrodingers_cat
@Ruckus: Word. You cannot wake up someone just pretending to be asleep.
Bess
People here rail at the 27% and the B-Bros because they take a position and refuse to consider other ideas. And here we have a couple of BJ regulars doing the same thing.
schrodingers_cat
@Bess: You are starting with the premise that the anti-immigrant forces are right and need to be met half way. I disagree with that premise.
You have also shown a complete inability to listen.
Bess
I find it a bit hard to accept that I haven’t listened. I’ve responded to everything you’ve posted.
Don’t confuse hearing with agreeing.
My premise:
1) We on the left do not have the ability to create a path to citizenship for people living in the US who do not have a legal basis.
2) Some people on the right have stated that citizenship is the ‘no-go’ for them. (I assume they are worried about adding several million voters to the roles. Voters who would mostly vote for Democrats.)
3) We would lose nothing by offering to consider legislation which created a permanent residence visa for the 10+ million who are currently being sought out by ICE. Legislation which permits those people to continue to live in the US, above board, but didn’t give them voting privileges.
That’s my premise. I started this conversation by asking why we would oppose a permanent residency visa as a way to keep families together. So far all I’ve heard is “I don’t want to do that” which is not exactly a reason that one can work with.
TenguPhule
@Bess:
Cat is unhinged on immigration. Completely off the walls unhinged. Rational conversation is impossible on this subject.
Corner Stone
@Bess:
Are you for real? Your premise caves in on all principle on the false assumption that this is about “voter rolls” by those on the right. It isn’t.
Creating a permanent underclass does not help these individuals, nor their families. They have zero assurances of staying together under your premise.
You have heard alot and responded alot but that’s not really the crux of what is going on here. There is no compromise available that turns millions of people into chattel. Frankly, I am disgusted by your premise.
Miss Bianca
@Bess: I am sorry, but even if your heart is in the right place here, it sounds as tho’ you ARE advocating for a second-class status for immigrants. To say that “maybe this will make things more palatable for hateful racists, and oh, it’s not discriminatory because other countries do it, too” sticks in my craw a bit. Maybe Costa Rica feels different, but having spent time in Germany and seeing the tension that the whole “Gastarbeiteren” concept provoked – mostly with the Turks, because at that time, the Turks were the most promiment ethnic minority who were relegated to permanent “non-citizen” status, it just seemed really, really, racist and wrong to me. Got in a lot of arguments with Germans who could clearly see the flaws with American imperialism but couldn’t see the remnants of “Ein Folk” etc in their own. Our system is deeply flawed, but right now I’m feeling so ornery that I’m going to say, “fuck it. No compromise with racist assholes. We go for the gold and won’t settle for silver or bronze.”
Corner Stone
@TenguPhule: SC has strong views but that does not make anything Bess has said palatable, acceptable or useful as a starting point for policy.
schrodingers_cat
@TenguPhule: Irony is dead. BJ advocate for political violence is calling someone else unhinged.
Miss Bianca
@TenguPhule: I would not call Cat “unhinged” on the subject of immigration. I’m going to go out on a limb here and posit that you are white, male, and have no immediate fear of being targeted by hateful bigots screaming, “go back where you came from!” When you turn your vengeful fantasies on ALL those who would oppress us here, I’ll take you seriously. Till then, I have to wonder, “who are these enemies of the people – of this ‘us’ – you speak of? Who gets to be counted as ‘us’, anyway?”
Tenar Arha
@Bess: Bess, we’re not refusing to discuss this with you, we’re telling you we can’t without changing what it means to be an American, and then explaining exactly why that’s the case.
We have all, in response to your original question, in one way or another, told you why creating some kind of legal permanent resident visa system (on top of/replacing some part of the current system of work visas, green cards, naturalization and birthright citizenship, alongside a large swath of overstays and undocumented workers) is not acceptable to most Democrats. We’ve essentially been responding that it’s the wrong question and the wrong tactic and a fundamentally flawed strategy to compromise one party’s principles. So, one more try:
Citizenship is an indivisible and inalienable right of all natural born USians. This is bedrock principle in the Democratic Party. This fundamental principle of citizenship will develop cracks that create two classes of USians if we create a group of legal permanent residents. We’re not refusing to compromise on a debate over policy, we’re refusing to compromise on a basic premise of what citizenship means in this country.
schrodingers_cat
@Corner Stone: I have followed these immigration restrictionists long before they had someone in the White House who listened to them. I have followed what FAIR and Numbers USA have had to say since the attempt during W’s presidency to overhaul immigration. They do not argue in good faith.
Bess
@Corner Stone:
No, you misread what I wrote. I assume a significant percentage (the 27%) on the right are incurable racists. But I also assume some percentage of those on the right are willing to work out a solution if it does not include the right to vote.
There is no 100% secure solution. Make them citizens by a change in the Constitution. At some point in the future we could change the Constitution and kick them out.
Or perhaps there is a 100% secure solution. Can you suggest one?
Chattel? An item of movable personal property, such as furniture, domestic animals, etc.? No one is talking about anyone owning these folks. Just about working out a way to allow them to remain in the country with their families and work above board where they are less likely to be mistreated by unethical employers.
Bess
@Miss Bianca:
I am suggesting we consider ways to allow people to stay in the country with their families.
If you have what you think is a better solution then please tell us what it is.
I agree, my solution is not full citizenship. I do not think that possible in the next several years. If you see a way to get there quickly then speak up.
Corner Stone
@Bess: I am going to try and stop now because you refuse to see the truth. Trump did not win with only 27% of the R party. They clearly do not want brown people to vote but that is not the sticking point about immigration. It just is not.
People who have to constantly look over their shoulder when they leave the house are not citizens. They are constantly at risk. They wager their labor for a favorable status that allows them to stay. For now. That sure as hell sounds like they are property to be used as needed, threatened when it is advantageous, and tossed back to “where they came from” if it fits a political need.
Your premise is a ridiculous formulation and I reject it wholeheartedly.
Bess
@Tenar Arha:
It’s not acceptable to most Democrats because it’s not acceptable to most Democrats is what you’ve told me. That’s not a reason, it’s a condition.
Here’s your choice, way I see it, work out a solution that can gain enough votes to pass or watch ICE stalk and toss people. Until, at least, we can return the control of our government to Democratic hands.
Citizenship is also given to people born in other countries who come here legally and fulfill certain requirements.
We’re now faced with the problem of over 10 million people who did not come here legally. They are not, based on current laws, eligible for citizenship.
Some of us would accept a path to citizenship. Others of us won’t. Enough oppose a path to citizenship to keep that from happening.
I really do not see a problem with creating a new visa class. We already have a resident (green card) visa which allows people to live in the country for all their lives as long as they don’t commit a serious crime. This visa comes with the ability to become a citizen. For those who came here illegally we could give out the same sort of green card without the path to citizenship.
This could be a fairly simple process. Bring proof of residency in the country for x years. Undergo screening for lack of a criminal record. Pay a processing fee.
Miss Bianca
@Bess: I don’t see a way to get there quickly. But I don’t see it, either, in your blithe contention of “oh, surely there are some “rational actors” on the right who, altho’ they can’t be bothered to contend with their more rabid co-travellers, are going to be all agog to work with Democrats to allow immigrants to remain here on a non-voting, non-citizen status.”
Maybe there are. Sure – maybe there are a lot of racists on the right who would hug themselves with joy at the thought of working with Democrats to lock in entire generations’ worth of immigrants into a “landed immigrant” status. I just don’t think Democrats should accomodate them. I think there are valid forms of progressivism to make on immigration, but saying “oh, we should work with Republicans to make sure immigrants can’t vote, cause they’ll be all about that, isn’t that keen? Isn’t that progress?” to be offensive and wrong-headed. YMMV.
Bess
@Corner Stone:
Trump won with just under 50% of the vote. I’ve stated multiple times that I don’t expect to reach the 27%. I’ve posted in multiple discussions that I feel we need to find a way to bring some of the “22%” onboard.
(100% – 51% Hillary – 27% Unreachable = 22% Potentials)
People who live in the US with green cards do not have to look over their shoulder when they leave the house and they are not citizens. They are not at risk unless they commit a major crime. They work the same jobs for the same wages as the rest of us.
I have a ten year green card holder sitting five feet from me right now. She has full rights except voting and officeholding. She gets Social Security and Medicare. (She’s right now studying for her citizenship test which is coming up in the next few weeks.)
Bess
@Miss Bianca:
I don’t want to see good people who are raising families, own homes and businesses, are good workers get grabbed up and sent out of the country in chains.
I’m not willing to let the perfect keep us from achieving some good.
Ruckus
@Miss Bianca:
It’s been explained numerous times by numerous people that this is not a reasonable or rational or democratic principle to deal with immigration this way. That it is not reasonable or rational to give up a valid democratic principle just because irrational, moronic assholes are currently in charge of our government.
I’ve come to the conclusion that this person is not after an honest discussion. This is not a difficult concept to understand or to discuss. Yet we keep getting told that the only way to get along is to simply give up democratic principles. Yes you might float the idea but this idea has so many holes in it, most of which have been pointed out those numerous times that to continue to act like this is the only way forward is just not an honest position for a liberal person.
schrodingers_cat
@Ruckus: It reminds me of the abortion debates. Restrictions on their bodily autonomy is really good for women, the religious right likes to argue. Likewise, giving up a path to citizenship is good for immigrants, apparently.
Smedley the uncertain
@ThresherK: Craftsman brand sold by Sears to Stanley Black and Decker. Sad
Bess
Did you also vote for Jill because Obama didn’t hold out for single payer?
That is an incorrect statement. I have said that I see no route to full citizenship for the 10+ million. I’ve asked if anyone can suggest a route and so far no one has been able to offer a solution.
I’ve offered one possible solution which should keep families from being split up. I’ve asked for others but have heard nothing. All I’ve gotten is that holding out for a route to citizenship is more important than allowing families to stay together.
I’m making suggestions. The rest of you are saying “No, no, no”. You aren’t discussing.
Bess
@schrodingers_cat: @schrodingers_cat:
And that leads me to again assume that you have reading comprehension problems.
You can’t give up something you don’t have. Do we settle for half a loaf or no loaf? You’ve given no route to getting a full loaf.