France holds the first, primary round of its national elections tomorrow. There are eleven candidates running from the extreme right to the far left. The Daily Beast‘s Christopher Dickey and Erin Salezky have the details:
Let’s be just that blunt. These elections could fuck us all. They have turned into an insane gamble—Russian roulette (and we use the term advisedly) with at least two of the chambers loaded—and the implications for the United States are huge.
The biggest winner in the forthcoming French presidential elections may well be Russian President Vladimir Putin, in fact. And while he might have played a few of his usual dirty tricks—indeed, in 2014 a Russian bank funded the party of Marine Le Pen, the current first-round leader in the polls—Putin can now sit back and watch the French themselves try to destroy the European Union and the NATO alliance he hates so much.
Less than three weeks from now, in the final round of the presidential elections, the only choice left to the voters of France could well be between Le Pen, a crypto-fascist, or Jean-Luc Mélenchon, a charismatic communist, both of whom are strongly anti-EU and anti-NATO.
Victory for either one would mean an end to the political, diplomatic, and economic order that has protected the United States as well as Europe for the last 70 years, preventing the kinds of cataclysms—World Wars I and II—that cost millions of lives in the first half of the 20th century while containing first Soviet and now Russian adventurism.
There are other possibilities, but as the French prepare to go to the polls (or flee them) this Sunday, April 23, the possible outcomes are a total crapshoot. The four top candidates in a field of 11 are in a virtual dead heat; the differences between their scores is within the acknowledged margins of error by the pollsters. The top two finishers will vie against each other in a run-off on May 7. And the reason something like panic has set in among many French, from the heights of the political establishment to conversation over espressos at the counters in working-class cafés, is that the candidate with the most solid base is Le Pen, while the one with the most momentum is the far-left Mélenchon.
Much, much more at the link.
Sp we wait for the results of tomorrow’s primary. And then we wait for another two weeks to see just how much more interference there is in the French elections by the Russians before knowing just how much damage may then be done to the EU and NATO. Campaigning for tomorrow’s elections was suspended, per French election law, last night, but events that could effect the election continue. This includes the potential political fallout from Thursday’s attack on French law enforcement at the Champs Elysees* and an orderly arrest of an armed man at the Gare du Nord in Paris earlier today.
?URGENT – #PARIS: L' homme armé d'un couteau a été neutralisé à la Gare du Nord à Paris alors qu'il s'approchait de gendarmes." #AlerteInfo pic.twitter.com/ndgybF2AwG
— FranceNews24 (@FranceNews24) April 22, 2017
Stay frosty and sleep well!
* This was a strange attack in terms of what is being reported as motivation. While it is true that a note regarding ISIL was found next to the deceased shooter after he had been killed by French police, he had a long criminal history and it has been reported that he hated law enforcement as a result. So while ISIL has claimed responsibility, it is unclear what, exactly, ISIL actually had to do with the attack. Cheurfi’s lawyer had this to say:
Jean-Laurent Panier, who defended the suspected Champs-Elysée gunman in a theft trial, said he showed “no sign that he belonged to any movement, or of radicalisation”.
Mr Panier added: “He was very solitary, someone who was particularly isolated. He lived with his mother and had contact with his father, and there was a family that tried to support him but felt powerless.”
Cheurfi had a long criminal record and spent more than a decade in prison for attempted murder.
The lawyer painted a picture of a naive man, who took part in a theft and was “left to face the music” when his accomplices fled.
“I never got a sense that this was someone who would be radicalised,” Mr Panier said.
And:
He had been questioned in February over threats to kill police officers but allowed to go free.
He was not on the police “S” watchlist of known terror suspects although he appeared on the counter-terrorist services’ radar last December, according to ‘Le Monde’, slightly earlier than previously thought.
At the time, police were tipped off that he wanted to “kill police officers to avenge Muslims killed in Syria”, said the newspaper citing security forces. He was also seeking weapons and a way of contacting an Isil contact in Iraq or Syria. A judicial inquiry was opened in Meaux but this was not terror-related.
Regardless, whatever political impact results does not have to, and likely will not be, related to whatever Cheurfi’s actual motivations were.
Omnes Omnibus
This one really scares me. I so want the French to do the right thing. Le Pen, despite throwing her father under the bus, is a white nationalist fascist. The extent that France is like Wisconsin is weird. The cities need to vote. And be able to vote. I hope for the best.
efgoldman
What’s the status of immigrants WRT right to vote?
Another Scott
I haven’t been paying a huge amount of attention, but I’m actually not worried about the French elections too much. NATO will survive (France was out of NATO’s military structure under DeGaulle and only rejoined in 2009). The EU would have additional heartburn if LePen won, but that seems very unlikely.
Ultimately, if the EU isn’t strong enough to have the continuing support of its members, then it needs to find a way to change so that it gets that support. They made a huge mess in their policies in the aftermath of the Great Recession and Greece is still paying a huge price. The EU has to do a better job of combatting disinformation, and coming up with policies so that people and regions who are affected by rapid change (economic, and all the others) have the support they need to adjust to the changes. (As does the USA.)
I don’t actually know what they will do, but even with Putin’s interference the French people have to decide.
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: Only French citizens can vote in French national elections. Non French citizens cannot. EU citizens residing in France may register to vote for both local and EU elections from where they reside in France.
MomSense
C’mon France. Do the right thing.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: She’s a piece of work. Her daughter is even more slippery than Marine in making the vile Front National platform of neo-fascism, nationalism, anti-Semitism, anti-Islam, and xenophobia more appealing than it should. Apparently there is an evolution within the family from generation to generation – from father to daughter to granddaughter.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Modern Poujadisme. Woohoo. I hope that she is crushed like a rock tomorrow, but I suspect that she will come in second.
Mike in NC
Trump basically endorsed LePen.
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@Omnes Omnibus: I fear your suspicion is correct. Thanks, BTW. Noted in a reply below.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: I think she’ll make it to the runoff as well. Once there I don’t think she’ll get much farther. President Obama seems to prefer Macron, and while I think it is possible he’ll make it to the runoff, I’m not sure he’ll win the final.
Adam L Silverman
Boize Moi!
And it gets worse:
Omnes Omnibus
@Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: yw.
efgoldman
Au revoir, Canadiens
rikyrah
They vote on Sunday?
Good.
Do the right thing, France.
debbie
@Mike in NC:
And Obama called Macron to wish him luck. I hope Macron trounces Le Pen so someone can ask Trump what he thinks about that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: The fact that she is likely to make it is an indictment of our center-left democracies. So many people are assholes.
efgoldman
@rikyrah:
Most civilized countries vote on weekends.
Then there’s us.
Bill E Pilgrim
This is a pretty good analysis. I still think that “run off” is a flawed translation, “second round” is more accurate. Yes there could in theory be no second round, but for all practical purposes it virtually always happens, and it’s definitely going to happen this time. A “run off” the way we use it usually means the other way around, a more or less rare case when the vote was too close to win outright.
It’s not just being pedantic to say that, I think the translation can be misleading. The French scatter their votes all over the landscape in the first round, it’s expected. In the second is when they coalesce, since there are only two left at that point. In 2002 it was 16%/19% Le Pen/Chirac the first round, but in the second it was 18%/82%. Le Pen barely changed, whereas Chirac got the “hold your nose and vote for him” vote, i.e. basically everyone other than the hard right who voted for Le Pen in both rounds.
It’s definitely different now but not totally. I think what Marine Le Pen gets in the first round is likely to be similar to what she gets in the second, whereas Macron (if he gets in the second round that is) will certainly get tons more in the second than he got in the first.
As the 538 article says, it all depends on who gets into the second round. I still think Macron/Le Pen, but — we’ll see.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: On the hockey topic, we had our fourth different variant of the goaltender interference call within a week in the Blues/Wild game this afternoon. Like three of the four others a goal was waved off because of goaltender interference and no actual penalty for goaltender interference was called. And, like two of the other four the player who supposedly interfered with the goalie was pushed, via crosscheck, into the goalie. At this point I have no idea what this rule actually is or how it should be called!
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: Yep.
AliceBlue
@Adam L Silverman:
Sweet Jeebus. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
Adam L Silverman
@Bill E Pilgrim: I do not disagree with your point.
efgoldman
@Adam L Silverman:
Yeah, I saw it.
I don’t think anybody knows. It’s like “what’s a catch?” in football.
Adam L Silverman
@AliceBlue: It would be one thing if there was a learning curve…
efgoldman
@AliceBlue:
At least in France, nobody’s running on taking health coverage away from tens of millions of people.
… are they?
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: Since I stopped watching American football in the mid 90s, I have no idea.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: No. That is the one thing about the extreme rightists in the EU countries: their platforms call for either maintaining or strengthening the traditionally social democratic safety nets and programs. Often this is tied to being able to do so because they will get rid of the foreigners who are leaching off the system. For Brexit this took the form of return the EU dues to Britain and we’ll put them into the National Health Service. It was also a gigantic lie, which Farage admitted as soon as the vote went his way leaving his Tory allies holding the bag as he also resigned from leading the UKIP.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: She is a fascist. The rest is commentary.
Bill E Pilgrim
@efgoldman:
Gisele would say Tom Brady I guess.
Another Scott
@AliceBlue: Trump is a stupid, brain-damaged, narcissistic old man. None of these antics of his surprise me, no matter how much they make me cringe…
Mark Bowden in December 2015:
Cheers,
Scott.
Mary G
@Adam L Silverman: Poor Sgt. Barrietos looks like a man defusing a very unstable bomb that could go off on him at any second.
efgoldman
@Another Scott:
I hadn’t seen that analysis before, but it’s certainly right on, innit?
Bill E Pilgrim
For whatever it’s worth and you know, who knows, polling stats/crosstabs here show pretty solidly Macron/Le Pen after first round, then him pretty much demolishing her in the second, 63% to 36%.
If that is who’s standing after the first round, and that’s still an if, then it’s really not like either Brexit or Trump, which I keep hearing cited. Those were surprises, sure, but polls weren’t actually that far off in those cases. Nobody bridged a 27% gap between opinion polling and what happened in voting.
PJ
Polls were open today at the consulate in New York. NYPD cars were stationed in front of the building. There was a small line to get inside (everyone has to go through a metal detector), but I’m not sure what the turnout is normally to vote there.
(As an aside, I have a friend who is a native Italian with US citizenship, and it drives him crazy that we only have one day to vote in our elections, and it’s always a Tuesday, when most people are working.)
Adam L Silverman
@Mary G: Pretty much. The Army has this strange dynamic (I can’t speak to the other Services as I’ve never worked for them) in that the majority of the officer cohort is still white, while the NCO/enlisted and Warrant Officer cohorts have significantly more ethnic minorities.
SRW1
France is in for a political crisis with pretty much any outcome. Le Pen or Melanchon would not only mean big international problems but a definitive constitutional crisis in France itself. There will be parliamentary elections in France in a few months, but it’s very hard to see how either of these two could assemble any working majority in parliament. So how would they govern?
Macron has a similar though smaller challenge in that as a (by now) unaffiliated centrist he will need to find someone as prime minister who would be willing to carry out his policies and gain sufficient support in parliament. Macron itself does not have a party organisation behind him.
The parliamentary election may well end in a conservative majority that formally should allow the arch-conservative Fillion to govern. But the conservatives are split into several parties and the corruption allegations against Fillion will make him a broadly despised figure anyway.
The sort of ironic thing is that France may be in a situation similar to Germany under Schröder in 2006. Hollande has done some heavy lifting with painful work reforms a la Schröder’s Agenda 2010 and in principle France may be primed for an economic upswing.
Adam L Silverman
@Bill E Pilgrim: I expect that whichever non Le Pen candidate is in the second round with her, provided it is a two person second round, will have everyone else close ranks around that candidate to lock her out. This is what has happened before.
And great link! Thanks!
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman:
Have you never worked in corporate America?
Steve in the ATL
was this homme a democrat? asking since he brought a couteau to a pistolet fight.
geg6
Watched The Founder tonight, with Michael Keaton as Ray Kroc. I always loved our local boy made good through comic acting. But he really has turned out to be a truly fine actor. It’s a perfect part for him and he really throws himself into it. I recommend it.
Another Scott
@efgoldman: Yup. Bowden’s got his number.
It’s a good piece, if you haven’t read the whole thing. Another taste:
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: Just for defense contractors on assignment to (wait for it, wait for it…) the Army.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Adam L Silverman: Yeah she’s got a ceiling, is the point. The others less so.
It’s pretty clear that it will vary at least somewhat depending on who it is, this time. Look at Fillon v Le Pen and Melenchon v Le Pen at that link. The latter is the one everyone is currently fretting about as the way she could win. However that chart still shows him getting 58 to her 41.
There are lots of articles about how it’s all uncertain and that’s the new most cited scare possibility, but I think it’s basically going to be like with her father, as I say she won’t change that much between round 1 and 2 and anyone else will.
Re the link, you’re welcome. Re “how it’s happened before” yep, saw 2002 up close and personal. In the Bois de Boulonge on our Sunday walk after my GF had voted in round one, hearing everyone on their mobile phones walking by saying “Ah bon? Mais non! Catastrophe!” and so on.
Abject panic can be useful sometimes….
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: if I wasn’t clear, my point was that in corporate America, it is incredibly common that the lower employee tiers have many women and people of color while the executive ranks are almost entirely white and male.
Adam L Silverman
@Bill E Pilgrim: No argument here. Dickey, the lead on the Daily Beast article, is (from what I can tell) living in France these days. So I’m wondering if he is catching something contextual that has him particularly on edge about Melanchon.
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: is the Daily Beast reliable? I see many of my lefty FB friends citing it these days, but I’m always suspicious after what we’ve seen with sites such as Slate and Salon.
gorram
@Adam L Silverman: Important to note that they don’t have naturalization by birth (although there are some naturalization processes still), so there are multiple generations in some (once) immigrant communities without voting rights (and other rights of citizenship).
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: I got your point, it was clear. I just decided that being a smartass was the best way to reply (why play against type?).
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: Like everywhere else, some of their stuff is really good, some not so much. Dickey is a very well respected journalist.
Adam L Silverman
@gorram: Yep.
SRW1
@Adam L Silverman:
Melanchon appears to be a pretty big a**hole at a personal level.
For an opinion on him cf this blog comment by an American expat.
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: well, his old man certainly wrote a great novel. *A* great novel; the rest of his catalog was not so great. And for all you “squeal like a pig!” fans, you should read the book as well. It was fantastic.
efgoldman
@gorram:
Basically the answer to the question I should have asked up top, but I phrased badly. Thx.
Once upon a time, weren’t immigrants from former colonies (mostly Algeria) treated as citizens?
Also, doesn’t having multiple generations treated as second class non-citizens create a really dangerous dynamic?
Steve in the ATL
@efgoldman: it does indeed! If you read Le Monde (like Omnes) or English-speaking Euro news sites, the Algerians live in ghettos and riot over being treated like dogs and having unemployment rates like Appalachian coal miners.
msdc
@Bill E Pilgrim: The bigger problem with a Melenchon-Le Pen match-up is that it would be a win-win for Putin. Melenchon hates NATO, the EU, and Germany just as much as Le Pen does, and to be honest, “Unsubmissive France” has always struck me as more of a Front National slogan than a left-wing rallying cry. My outsider’s perspective is that a large part of Melenchon’s appeal lies in his inclination to give certain sectors of the left ideological permission to be nationalists.
In France, the UK, or America, the twinned stories of this decade are the collapse of the center-right and the self-immolation of the far left. Both work in Putin’s favor.
Chet Murthy
@gorram: Un I don’t think so
And when i worked there (25yr ago) I recall clearly that they had an entire national myth of the melting pot. I remember being told that 1/4 of french citizens had at least one grandparent who came from another country. Or something like that.
At the time, the big outlier was Germany, where what you describe was indeed the case. But I think Germany has also changed their laws — how much, I have no idea.
SRW1
@efgoldman:
Ask the Turkish immigrants in Germany. There were third and fourth generation people of Turkish decent without access to citizenship before the Germans realized this was piling up huge future problems and needed to be changed.
And this experience by Turkish immigrants reverberates to this day. There’s a reason why the Turkish expat vote in the recent referendum was 63% Yes in Germany, but 80% No in the UK.
Bill E Pilgrim
@msdc: Right, I was just talking about people citing that matchup as scary because they think she would win it. Scary even if he won, yeah that’s a different set of scary. I have to admit I’m not all that up on the candidates this time, more just seeing a lot of commentary that pretty much misses the whole two round dynamic completely. Not the commentary here I mean, elsewhere.
I was there for the last election, stood in the Place de la Republique and sang la marseillaise after that moment when they announced that Hollande won over Sarkozy — and then look what happened. This was the socialist. Can’t get very enthusiastic this time, also of course I’m not there.
PhoenixRising
@efgoldman:
Um, yeah. Immigrants can’t vote and their kids can’t vote. So France’s nationalist-party gets to keep it simple: We have to crack down on Them before they overcome Us, and the more we do it, the more they rebel, the more we HAVE to crack down on Them, They can never become Us…etc. Interrupted by regular, serious deadly violence.
Many Americans are not aware of how unique our national proposition is: Come here, do a few things* to show you plan to stay, and your kids are Us. Some want to reverse that, because they think times have changed or yesterday’s immigrants were somehow better or different than today’s, but Steve King (R-IA) has a very European or dare I say French way of thinking about what makes a nation.
*offer not valid in all centuries; your mileage may vary according to hue/faith/point of origin
msdc
@Bill E Pilgrim: Nor I. Honestly, I was just looking for an excuse to vent the Melenchon rant I didn’t know I had in me.
Bill E Pilgrim
@PhoenixRising:
Yep. And linking what you said to the comment I made about Hollande:
Bill E Pilgrim
@msdc: Well you go gir, er, bo… you go, msdc!
efgoldman
@PhoenixRising:
Good goddamned thing it’s in the constitution, rather than statute.
And Steve King would have to raise his game quite a few levels to get up to idiot. He is a disgrace to the human race and to the people in his district who elect him.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@efgoldman: Can’t vote on holy days, nope, can’t do that.
Ladyraxterinok
Please bear with me, I’m feeling very stupid tonight. Also, at over 70, I’m just too old for the politics of this time. Why is all this coming to a head now? Has Putin been working on the political environment and peòple in the US, France, and Germany for some time to carry out his plans for the major weakening if not destruction of the West? Ìn what ways has he contributed to the refugee crisis? And why are the people of these countries so vulnerable to the manipulations? With modern social media, globalisation of media concentration, ‘fake news,’ etc, how do we fight this? I realize much of this has been discussed for some time here. But what with owing the IRS, the ongoing attacks on civil rights, the frightening know nothingness in the administration – it’seems just all too much. And, btw, new born babies are too old and tired to have to deal with today’s political world!!
rikyrah
Saw the Memphis/ San Antonio game..Was really good.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@efgoldman:
Yes.
opiejeanne
@Steve in the ATL: He also wrote poetry, some of which was very good.
Davis X. Machina
In some more encouraging news, AfD (Alternative für Deutschland) seems to be coming unglued at their party conference in Cologne.
It looks like their internal battles over whether or not to aim towards becoming a potential junior coalition partner with CDU/CSU, over Frauke Petry’s leadership, and over the expulsion of a state party leader for comments about the Holocaust are all taking a toll…
They may have peaked…
efgoldman
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Once upon a time couldn’t have sportsball games, either. Or shop.
Isn’t catholicism still the officlal religion in France?
NotMax
Adam, from a military standpoint is the Navy being overly officious and/or recalcitrant or truly boxed in by regulations?
U.S. Navy versus the cat people.
Davis X. Machina
@efgoldman: Rather the opposite. The Constitution of the Republic: “La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale.”
Steve in the ATL
@Davis X. Machina: I guess they got cocky about the “indivisible” part since Panzers hadn’t rolled down the Champs Elysee in 15 or so years.
NotMax
@efgoldman
Per Wikipedia, the complete list of countries whose officially designated state religion is Roman Catholicism is:
Costa Rica, Liechtenstein, Malta, Monaco, Vatican City.
Davis X. Machina
@Steve in the ATL: Aimed at Brittany and Corsica, I suspect, especially the latter, where there’s sporadically violent separatist activity.
Mnemosyne
@PhoenixRising:
I’ve seen that cited as the reason why the US has had very few home-grown Islamist terrorists, unlike France or the UK. It’s much, much easier for immigrants to be assimilated into the US because we have official non-discrimination laws on the basis of both religion and race, while France doesn’t even track religiously-based hate crimes.
It’s not a coincidence that the three successful home-grown attacks (Boston, Orlando, and San Bernardino) all happened within the last 5 years when the right wing really ramped up the anti-Islamic bullshit.
Chet Murthy
@Davis X. Machina: in the early 90s, the joke in Paris amongst the people I worked with, was that the reason all the Catholic holidays were celebrated on a day before or after the weekend, was so people could have 3-day weekends at the beach (or the country, I suppose). I had friends who were grad students in French History, who told me that church attendance collapsed after the Revolution (b/c the church was royalist) and never recovered.
So Catholic in name only, in short.
[of course, I could be wrong about all of this — I was a furriner there]
Steve in the ATL
@Davis X. Machina: leave Brittany alone!
Mnemosyne
@efgoldman:
I read a book written by a woman who lived in Philadelphia around 1828 and she said they actually blocked the city streets off with chains on Sundays to prevent people from taking frivolous carriage drives instead of sitting in church where they belonged.
gorram
@efgoldman: Under the right circumstances, you could get citizenship, is my understanding (it’s been about five years since I studied this in school so bear with me!). Part of the trick is that your kids can if they have a significant enough amount of schooling in France by accredited institutions – but there’s (one of) the rub(s): namely if you’re a community forced to move around periodically, from banlieue to banlieue, all with dilapidated schools. France is arguably approaching the assimilation of a lot of immigrant communities through this process, but it’s somehow even more backwards and indirect than ours, at least as far as voting rights go.
@Chet Murthy: It’s a bit dangerous to rely on French self perceptions in terms of understanding them! From your own source though: “The child (legitimate or natural) is French if born in France to at least one parent also born in France. Simply being born in France does not confer French nationality except in the case of a child born to unknown or stateless parents, or to aliens whose nationality is not transmitted to the child.” That’s jus sanguinis in jus soli drag! Also, I’m not clear on the language surrounding “legitimate or natural” – I know IVF is legally banned in France, so is that what this is referencing? If so, these laws aren’t just after immigrants (particularly people of color) but LGBT couples and their kids?
It’s worth noting that there are additional exceptions from Méhaignerie and Guigou Laws on the subject, mentioned in the source – but it’s worth also noting those come with the educational requirements I mention above, as well as other parts of an application process designed (deliberately!) to make naturalization as difficult as possible. Sure, there’s some “citizenship of soil” components mixed in there, but it’s a far cry from US standards of immigrants’ children having full citizenship rights without question.
NotMax
@Mnemosyne
Heck, when was there during the 1970s, Philly still was closed up tighter than an abalone on Sundays.
NotMax
@gorram
The situation in Germany with Turkish “guest workers” is not as stark but also not dissimilar.
Mnemosyne
@gorram:
I’m just going by what I’ve read, particularly after the Charlie Hebdo massacre, but one of the issues there for members of minority religions (not just Muslims, but also Jews) is that the official secularism is much more tolerant of Christian expressions, with Jewish and Muslim expressions being more likely to (for example) draw attention and punishment at school. There were also those incidents on French beaches last summer where police were going around and forcing Muslim women to remove their headscarves under penalty of arrest.
gorram
@Mnemosyne: Their census is like a GOP daydream over here – it doesn’t track race at all, leading to various persistent myths that racism doesn’t exist in France.
Mnemosyne
@NotMax:
She was comparing it to her home in London, which didn’t have the same kinds of blue laws. She found it really weird and backwards.
The book, by the way, is Domestic Manners of the Americans by Frances Trollope (mother of Anthony Trollope), and it’s a hoot. It’s also a little uncomfortable to see that we as a society haven’t changed all that much in the intervening 150+ years.
ETA: You can get a very good Kindle edition from Amazon for free.
gorram
@Mnemosyne: Definitely! Armed police! Unveiling women for being in public! But it’s totally not about targeting Muslims. What a lot of people in the US seemed to miss during the debate around “religious expression” in schools was that many Jewish people stood up at the time and were uncomfortable with the policies. Their criticism was dismissed, that them wearing a marker of Jewishness wasn’t a chauvinist thing, and the national narratives were about how great it would be for them to not be easily seen as Jews. They should be ~grateful~ for the opportunity to assimilate.
@NotMax: Yep! I have to admit I unfortunately know quite a bit less about the situation in Germany, but it strikes me as very similar. If anything, it’s probably an even larger part of the population, since there was an organized attempt to recruit Turkish people to immigrate as “guest workers”, right? I’m glad to hear it’s not as bad, and hope that is the case anyhow!
Mnemosyne
@gorram:
Again, going by what I’ve read and heard people say, it sounds like the racism is very tied into nationality. I’ve heard African-Americans who live there say that they’re treated very well as long as they’re easily identifiable as Americans, but if their French gets good enough for them to be mistaken for someone from one of the Francophone countries in Africa, their treatment changes in a very abrupt and shocking way.
FlipYrWhig
@gorram: I think “natural” means “illegitimate,” like it does in Jane Austen.
mdblanche
@gorram: “Natural” is a euphemism for born out of wedlock.
NotMax
@Mnemosyne
There’s a promotional short for the film industry from 1935 which shows up on TCM from time to time soliciting public support for allowing movie theaters to open on Sundays.
When I first moved to this tropical island the blue laws were just about to begin breaking down, mostly due to pressure from the tourism industry. First gas stations, then food markets were permitted to open on Sundays and in short order the rest of the strictures collapsed.
efgoldman
@NotMax:
Massachusetts “Blue Laws” weren’t formally repealed until 1983. Informally, many retailers chose to open on Sundays prior to that, and pay the nominal fine imposed by the city or town.
Mostly it was a reaction to border area stores having their clocks cleaned by stores in neighboring states, most notably New Hampshire.
gorram
@Mnemosyne: Yeah, Ta Nehisi Coates discussed that a bit in “Between the World and Me”! It’s arguably the case more generally in Europe that they more tightly regulate ideas of who necessarily qualifies as White (or similar concepts), but also that they’re more willing to treat people of color with respect and dignity in contexts that are more easily and routinely jeopardized here. It’s kind of a flattening out of people who fit into a more middle ground, foreign but not immediately targeted.
gorram
@mdblanche: @FlipYrWhig: Ah, thank you! I was wondering since it was paired with “legitimate”.
NotMax
@efgoldman
As progressive as it may have been in some areas, there’s good reason “banned in Boston” became a commonplace expression.
(And not alone in the northeast. New York had the Comstock laws, for example.)
NotMax
@gorram
Case in point, entertainer and humanitarian Josephine Baker, who was more at home (and more welcomed) in the France of the 1930s than in her native U.S.
efgoldman
@NotMax:
“Banned in Boston” was really a separate thing, having to do with the (mostly catholic) establishment’s being shocked, shocked I say by certain media that might have hinted at the S word.
NotMax
@efgoldman
Same establishment behind enforcement of the blue laws (at least post-Irish deluge).
Different horse, same race.
Tokyokie
I remember when I first moved to texass in the late 1970s, blue laws were still on the books. Essentials like food could be sold legally, but not hardware and furniture. And though it was easy enough for the owner to close a hardware or furniture store on Sunday, big supermarkets and other retailers that sold a wide variety of merchandise would have to cordon off sections of merchandise on Sundays. Weird, but the Legislature rescinded those laws a few years later, largely because the Walton family was a better source of campaign funds than the guy with a tire store in Alpine.
efgoldman
@efgoldman: As far as I can tell, the last thing banned in Boston was Tinto Brass’ Caligula (1979)
If my memory is correct, efforts were made to ban both Hair and Oh! Calcutta! for nudity. Failed.
In one of those weird coincidences, the last city censor (that wasn’t his formal title) was named Richard Sinnott. You can’t make this up.
NotMax
@gorram
Should add that until such time (if ever) that France as a country and the French as a people cease viewing Algerian independence as an ineradicable stain on the national escutcheon the situation is unlikely to change much for the better.
Germany’s history regarding Turkey was, needless to say, quite different.
efgoldman
@NotMax:
Yes and no. The Sunday sales laws were statewide and controlled by the legislature. The Boston banning was strictly the city proper.
ETA: Boston, as the state capital, has a weird relationship with the state. It’s independent, like any municipality. but it requires permission and oversight from certain state agencies to change some things. F’rinstance, alcohol sales in Boston, including the granting of licenses, are controlled by the state liquor control board. No other municipality is restricted like that
JMG
Repeating from yesterday. I have been in France for last 10 days (fly home to Boston today, election day here). Have seen very little public discussion of election except it’s on TV all the time, of course, mostly in panel discussions I can’t quite follow. But my daughter works at a wine exporting firm whose employees lean right due to the nature of their business, which can’t exist without well-to-do customers. They were almost all undecided except for one thing, they weren’t going to vote to LePen. I think they’d like to vote for Fillon, but the scandal put them off.
NotMax
@efgoldman
Wonder if he’s any relation to erstwhile Marvel comics inker Joe Sinnott.
NotMax
@efgoldman
County liquor control board here (notoriously retrograde and a perennial hotbed of graft) just last month lifted the ban on stores selling alcohol after 11 p.m.
With the increasing number of markets open 24 hours, suspect that’s whence the pressure originated. Royal pain to block off* and then unblock those aisles each day.
*Generally done with lots of upended shopping carts. Effective, perhaps but also an unsightly impediment to traffic flow.
NotMax
@NotMax
Same board also oversees a Minotaur worthy maze of rule and regulations about where and when dancing is allowed.
TriassicSands
The hell with the Russians and Putin, the real problem in France as it is in the US is the growing number of profoundly stupid and ignorant citizens. A moderately intelligent reasonably well-informed person cannot be manipulated by the Russians or anyone else into supporting a neo-fascist like Le Pen. Someone stages an attack on French police officers shortly before the elections and there is a real possibility that the attack could change the outcome of the election. That wouldn’t be the case if there weren’t so many stupid and ignorant French voters.
The plague of stupidity and ignorance has spread to the US, Great Britain, and France. It remains to be seen if the French are as far gone as the Brits and Yanks.
The Lodger
@Steve in the ATL: I have to put in a good word here for James Dickey’s The Heaven of Animals. Amazing poem. It was the reason I didn’t sell my Great American Poetry anthology from college.
opiejeanne
@The Lodger: His poem Adultery is very sad and apparently very personal.
Aussie Sheila
@PhoenixRising: t
Aussie Sheila
T
The US proposition re immigrants is Not unique.
Australia is the most successful multicultural country in the world. Near 40% of the population has one or more parent an immigrant, and a near percentage speak English as a second language in the home, not outside necessarily .
I am unaware of France’s citizenship laws, but I am familiar with the German model which until recently insisted on ‘blood’ as the determinant of citizenship.
Immigration based on anything but shared citizenship (available to anyone who wishes to join) is a disaster. When it is based on being a source of unregulated and therefore cheap labour like in the US you get the US political and economic catastrophe.
I am not for completely open borders as such, but what I do reject is the notion that immigrants who come to work are denied the franchise and every other benefit of citizenship. That is the problem everywhere, not just Europe. I cannot fathom how US liberals can tolerate a situation where 11
million people reman ‘illegal’, deprived of the most basic thing that could make their situation better. That being the franchise. Immigration in itself is a nothing burger, unless it carries with it the rights and entitlements of citizenship.
Having said that, Australian attitudes and actions towards refugees who arrive by boat, is beyond thunderdome, and deserves the widest possible condemnation.
Cheers
Shalimar
I am unfamiliar with Melenchon, so I will just call him “Dr. Stein” from now on to remind myself of his place on the political spectrum. Has he attended conferences for Russia Today too, or is this just a lucky coincidence for Putin that the far left candidate supports his goals as much as the neo-nazi does?
Taylor
@Steve in the ATL: Dickey (the father) actually played the sheriff in the excellent film version of Deliverance.
msdc
@Shalimar: That’s about the size of it. I don’t know about dinners with Michael Flynn, but Melenchon has enjoyed fawning coverage from RT and Sputnik while they go after Macron hammer and tongs… as does defender of freedom and all-around political super-genius Julian Assange.
So yeah, they have a script and they’re following it to the letter. I hope the French left can pull its shit together better than ours did.
Miss Bianca
@Another Scott: That story is an analogy for Trump’s whole life and modus operandi. Lucky us!
clay
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Souls to the Polls is a thing that exists. The official election day is on a Tuesday, but people can and do vote on all other days.
J R in WV
@opiejeanne:
@Taylor:
@Steve in the ATL:
Had a professor/friend when I attended the Antioch Appalachian field school in the mid 1970s. Don West, author, poet, organizer, from NW Georgia where he and his brother (IIRC) ran a small group of rural weekly newspapers. Fired from his position as a professor at Oglethorpe U in GA for being a socialst/integrationist.
He and Dickey were friends for many years, but when Deliverance was published, Don never spoke to Dickey again. He despised the work as exploitive of the hill people, and Dickey for writing it as such. While Deliverance (both the novel and the film) has an exciting plot, it hinges on a seriously degrading and unlikely group homosexual rape scene. The blatant hatred of outsiders by the hill people is also very unrealistic. I will say no more about that.
Don was a co-founder of the Highlander School, but left that after a year. He and his wife Connie taught at U of Maryland and saved his salary to buy land to found the Appalachian South Folklife Center in Pipestem, WV. There they taught both flatland folks and hill folks the history and culture of the Appalachian Mountains. He also taught at the Antioch College center I attended briefly.
I have a huge respect and admiration for Don as he lived his beliefs and paid a high price. As a union organizer in eastern Kentucky in the 1930s he was beaten/maimed and left to die in a ditch one winter. Rescued by a union brother, he was hidden away and nursed back to health before escaping the county controlled by the companies’ Pinkerton thugs.
Based upon West’s lifelong knowledge of Dickey, I have no respect for the man. Exploiting one’s people for fame and profit is hardly admirable.
PS, I wrote this after seeing Opiejeanne’s first comment, then deleted it. Then redid it after seeing more commentary on Dickey the father. I have no knowledge of Dickey the son and will not tar him with the same brush at all.
Miss Bianca
@J R in WV: I’ve never been able to stomach the thought of watching – or reading – Deliverance, just based on impressions I’ve received from others about that scene, and the general denigration of the “hill people” that it implied. (And this is from someone who pours scorn on that “Hillbilly Elegy” author – why, yes, I *am* great enough to contain many contradictions!)