If you are even a teensy bit skeptical about the extent of Clinton Derangement Syndrome or the mainstream media’s refusal to hold Hillary Clinton to a normal standard such as “when she speaks, commonly accepted word definitions aren’t suspended and replaced with more sinister meanings,” well, take a look at Twitter right now.
The occasion? Clinton spoke to Christiane Amanpour at a Women for Women event today. Excerpts of CNN coverage:
Hillary Clinton delivered her most forceful critique of President Donald Trump’s 2016 victory on Tuesday, taking personal responsibility for her failed campaign but also pointed to the timing of a letter from FBI Director James Comey and Russian interference as factors.
“If the election had been on October 27, I would be your president,” she told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour at a Women for Women event in New York.
“I take absolute personal responsibility. I was the candidate, I was the person who was on the ballot. I am very aware of the challenges, the problems, the shortfalls that we had,” Clinton said, before adding that she was “on the way to winning until a combination of Jim Comey’s letter on October 28 and Russian WikiLeaks raised doubts in the minds of people who were inclined to vote for me and got scared off.”
“The reason I believe we lost were the intervening events in the last 10 days.”
The event marks the latest where Clinton, in a stinging rebuke to Trump, both blames herself for the 2016 loss but also casts the current President as someone aided by outside factors, including the Russian government.
After Clinton noted the 3 million more votes she won than Trump, Amanpour joked that the President would soon tweet about the comment.
“Fine. Better than the interfering in foreign affairs,” Clinton said. “If he wants to tweet about me than I am happy to be the diversion because we have lot of things to worry about. He should worry less about the election and my winning the popular vote than doing some other things that would be important for the country.”
Clinton, aides and friends say, has grown more at peace with her loss in recent months, but is still focused on the interference by the Russian government, especially the fact that WikiLeaks began releasing John Podesta’s hacked emails hours after the damaging “Access Hollywood” Trump tape was released.
Clinton, as she has done in the past, also hung part of her 2016 loss on misogyny.
“Yes, I do think it played a role. I think other things did as well,” Clinton said.
But repeatedly, Clinton came back to Russian President Vladimir Putin’s role in the 2016 election and how he was able to tilt the scale in favor of Trump and against her.
Clinton, aides say, sees her role during the Trump years as a political activist who speaks out when issue she cares about are threatened. And on Tuesday, it was clear Clinton was ready to settle into that role.
“I am now back to being an activist citizen and part of the resistance,” Clinton said…
That’s what she said. Here’s what Glenn Thrush of the NYT heard:
Hillary takeaways 1) Loathes Trump 2) blames Comey/Putin 3) the 'real' Hillary-funny, hard-edged, unguarded 4) blames everyone but self
— Glenn Thrush (@GlennThrush) May 2, 2017
Fucking fuck. And when Thrush got pushback, such as direct quotes in which Clinton acknowledged screw-ups and took responsibility for the loss, the MSM Heathers scurried to Thrush’s defense because that’s not what Clinton reeeeeally meant.
See, this is how it works, guys: Everything is always Clinton’s fault — and her fault alone. It can’t be a combination of factors, including Clinton’s missteps.
And God knows, the media coverage had nothing to do with the election outcome. Nope, it’s all on Clinton.
Good gravy, what a bunch of arrogant fuck-sticks. I regret that I had but one NYT subscription to cancel for its abysmally shitty election coverage and persistent refusal to engage in introspection. The end.
Elizabelle
Glenn Thrush is a REAL problem. He’s thriving at the new, fascist-enabling Fuck the Fucking New York Times.
Elizabelle
Clinton Derangement Syndrome helped put Trump in striking distance too. The NY Times is exhibit A.
Mike in DC
We need a news criticism channel that does nothing but analyze daily coverage.
? Martin
Just wait until they start blaming this all on Chelsea to head off any opportunities she might have in political life.
Paula
Yep!
Lots of variations on that — all the “post-mortems” that leave out Comey, Russian mischief-making with Bernie-suppporters, and the media’s relentless breathless hysteria about emails and Benghazi. She was “flawed” — media was “fair” and all we supporters were grudging. Bullshit.
germy
Unforgivable!
Hillary’s Unfortunate But Unforgivable Role In The Great American Catastrophe
Betty Cracker
@Mike in DC: We damn sure do.
manfrommadras
I call bullshit on your comment, @betty cracker. I read the same article you did, and the takeaway was that she was real specific about external reasons why she lost but had zero clarity on why she goofed up. Anyone who can get 3 million extra votes in an election and still lose, because the stupid 3 million votes were in the wrong states, is a absolutely rotten politician. She let us Democratic voters down hard, especially when the stakes were so high. Glenn Thrushs’ takeway was correct – the elections aren’t a playground sandbox, they are the real thing. In the big game, you play hardball, and man up when it comes to admitting your mistakes..She didn’t do that, and that is another reason why she proved that she deserved to lose…
Barbara
@Elizabelle: It’s more than Exhibit A. It is the blindside of gender bias and its self-loathing female journalists like Amy Chozick are all in.
Shantanu Saha
Glenn Thrush: a yeast infection commonly found in the oral cavities of babies and older countries, but can become life-threatening when the country’s immune system is compromised by a virus commonly known as the Republican party.
hovercraft
Until Hillary absolves them of their responsibility in the disaster that has stuck this country and the world, she’ll continue to get hit with this shit. How were they supposed to know that he could actually win? They were just having fun with him before they had to settle down and cover actual policy. It’s not their fault that people actually believed that their shortcomings were them same, so what that they acted like “clouds” and “could seem to some people” were the same as actual things he said and did, she wasn’t able to overcome the mountain of bullshit they threw at her so she’s to blame.
The media is like an abusive spouse with her, she makes them attack her by not absolving them for their previous attacks. If she would just accept that she deserves to be treated the way they treat her because she mouths off, then everything would be fine.
Fuck the NY Times they are garbage.
And could you just make that a Tag already?
divF
@manfrommadras:
Glenn Thrush’s takeaway was
Which was clearly not the case.
Asshole. ETA: Actually, both of you are assholes.
Shantanu Saha
@manfrommadras: Go back to your Bernie baby box, bro.
p.a.
@manfrommadras: can’t tell the trolls without a scorecard…
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
The narrative must not be contradicted. Hilary was the worstest most horrible person to ever run for president including the current occupant of the White House. Susan Sarandon told me so.
Paula
@hovercraft:
Yep. Much of the media’s attitude to Hillary is: “I wouldn’t have hit you if you hadn’t made me mad.”
NotMax
So, nu?
/wit and wisdom of every Jewish grandmother
Elizabelle
@Barbara: Fucking Amy Chozick. Have not noticed her byline, but would not read another word by that hack.
Agree re gender bias, and with hovercraft on the “blaming the abused spouse” deal.
=====
Could we have a happier thread up? Trump, and now this maroon. Who wants to look at either?
manfrommadras
@shantanu saha, Make a point of your own, instead of throwing out all these ad hominem comments. I am as far from a Bernie supporter as possible, I just want to win, and she sorry to say, is not a winner. If she couldn’t beat Donald Trump, then really she needs all the honest feedback she can get.
TenguPhule
What the hell do the Russians have on the FNYT editorial staff?
Tom Q
I heard someone say a while back that all the journalists claiming Hillary came into the 2016 campaign with baggage are wrong: THEY are the ones who came in with baggage — a complete loathing for Hillary, derived from their loathing/frustration at not being able to dislodge Bill from the presidency almost two decades ago, which caused them to view Hillary’s every word or move as containing sinister implication. (You’d have thought sand-bagging Al Gore would have satisfied their blood-lust, but, no, it lives on — and their insane tweeting about Evil Chelsea tells us nothing will ever slake it.) Imagine if Hillary’s factual statements were given as much credence as Paul Ryan’s every mendacious one; she’d have won by 10%.
Nearly all the people now saying Hillary ran the worst campaign ever said nothing of the sort prior to October 30th of last year. (The exception: the Corbynite Bernie voters, who believe the country is dying to vote for flat-out socialism and nothing short of it will do). Given the razor-thin EC outcome, and the sudden drop in polling post-Comey’s letter, believing Hillary alone and nothing else is responsible for the situation we’re in is the purest form of hand-in-sand self-induced ignorance. An election that close was CLEARLY turned by a late hit that left Hillary’s campaign no time to offset the damage.
SenyorDave
@hovercraft: Your first line says it all. Bashing HRC makes them feel better. I’m thinking of subscribing to the NYT so I can cancel in a week. I know that will cost them lots of overhead in proportion to the few dollars they’ll take in from the actual delivered papers. Thrush’s twitter feed would be funny if it were fiction. And Haberman simply shouldn’t be employed by any newspaper.
NotMax
Make Thrush cry Uncle.
/Napoleon Solo/Ilya Kuryakin reference
germy
Did Glenn lay any responsibility at the feet of his employer?
“E M A I L Z !“
Paula
@Tom Q:
So right.
germy
Speaking of the FNYT, I didn’t know until recently about the Janet Maslin review of Gabe Sherman’s Ailes book. Apparently somebody from FauxNooz dictated portions of it to her.
Of course it was a bad review.
themann1086
https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/859468827658260480 for another example, this time from some CNN hack.
TenguPhule
@Tom Q: 40% of the country was already determined to vote against her because she had a D next to her name. Another 8 hated her for being Clinton.
Uncle Ebeneezer
Unless she says something like “I and I alone am solely responsible for the election, Benghazi, Whitewater, Watergate, the Challenger explosion, Katrina, WW2, lack of single payer, the death of Jesus etc.” these people will gripe about her making excuses.
Meanwhile have the MSM rags, Jill Stein, Bernie & The Bros etc, acknowledged how THEIR actions helped put 45 into office yet?
Goku
Jesus Christ, Thrush, how the fuck did you get “blames everyone but self” out of that interview? The simplest answer is that he hates Clinton, period, and doesn’t care if he lies. He knows he’ll still have a job at FTFNYT, a complete rag that does not give a damn about truth.
Oh, and Glenn? Everyone who voted for Trump/3rd party/not at all are ultimately responsible for the outcome. That’s how democracy works. Idiots like you also did damage
different-church-lady
@manfrommadras: Oh, buddy, you ain’t even met ad hominem yet…
Chris
@germy:
Preserving and improving the ACA with an eye to hopefully including a public option, raising the national minimum wage to 12 dollars an hour, making community college affordable, immigration reform offering a path to citizenship to non-criminal aliens and keeping families together…
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@germy: Who the fuck is Shaun Mullen and why should anyone give a shit about anything he has to say about anything?
hovercraft
I hate the media, they are worthless. Hillary gets attacked for telling the truth, and these assholes are going out of their way to make excuses for the Orange Turd.
The Fix • Analysis
The real reason Trump is so frustrated with Congress: He keeps on taking bullets for Republicans
Trump’s policies are nowhere closer to reality than when he was campaigning for president. And he can mostly thank a divided GOP for that.
By Amber Phillips • Read more »
germy
@Chris: She was very clear and detailed on her positions. The journalist turned BoomerBlogger was waiting for her to hire a skywriter, apparently.
Chris
@Tom Q:
It really was 2000 all over again. First, relentless both-sides-do-it coverage from a mainstream media that was completely in the tank for the Republican candidate. Then, when even that wasn’t enough, an arm of the federal government had to involve itself and commit an act of gross malpractice to put their pony over the top.
Mnemosyne
Yup. Even right here in these reasonably Hillary-friendly environs, there were people who refused to even look at the other factors if you didn’t start with, Of course, it was all Hillary’s fault for being the worst candidate ever to run for president.
Kay
I think it’s honest answer. She knows what they want. They want her to say it’s all her.
But that isn’t what she believes. It isn’t what I believe either. She literally cannot win this game so should say what she wants and just fuck them. These same people cover Donald Trump every day and he says 15 horrible/untrue things a day and they never opine on his character like they do hers.
rikyrah
I’m glad people are calling them on their garbage.
Sinnach
To be honest I think I’m losing more faith in humanity over this than Trump winning. It’s not just one journalist; there are dozens parroting this line or calling her a distraction. Hillary could move into a cave and live as a hermit and we’d still get bi-annual thinkpieces about how Hillary’s decision to live in a cave is selfish one and that she’s ignoring the cries of people looking to her to be a leader.
trollhattan
Recommend wandering over to Wonkette for a rather different take on the Amanpour-Clinton interview.
Hillary Clinton Emerges From Woods To Break Foot Up In Donald Trump’s Ass
You might feel better.
Kay
She could have given the answer they want. She could have said it was a normal election and Comey and Wikileaks didn’t happen and it was all due to not enough trips to Wisconsin, but that isn’t what she believes and I don’t either.
That isn’t true. These things did happen. They had an effect. Are we all supposed to pretend they didn’t happen?
No. I refuse.
hovercraft
Still Gorkin’
By Josh Marshall Published May 2, 2017 3:46 pm
It seems Sebastian Gorka isn’t quite fired after all. And it’s Trump himself who’s protecting him.
Whether this will remain the case, I have no idea. Clearly none of the new people at the White House – by which I mean, the post-Flynn/McMaster crew – want Gorka there. Because he’s an extremist with a phony degree who was involved in neo-fascist politics in Hungary before he decided to come to America. I suspect he’ll eventually get booted. But President Trump still apparently has his back. At least that’s what Gorka says.
randy khan
@manfrommadras:
You seem to be saying that she should have made a list of everything she did wrong and copped to it. Apparently it’s not enough that she said “I take absolute personal responsibility. I was the candidate, I was the person who was on the ballot. I am very aware of the challenges, the problems, the shortfalls that we had.”
Every campaign makes mistakes, and every mistake could be the one that makes a difference in a close race. So, yeah, she did things wrong. But to argue that winning the popular vote by 3 million but losing the EC makes her a bad candidate strains credulity. It’s not like she could have moved people from California to Wisconsin. The actual evidence suggests that the campaign got a lot of things right even when they weren’t obvious – for instance, the decisions to stop spending money in Virginia (because it was safe) and Iowa (because she wasn’t going to win there) – and it did shift resources to the three states that it barely lost when the polls shifted towards the end.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@hovercraft: Your quote is too perfect:
rikyrah
@Kay:
Damn right it wasn’t all her. Not close.
The curve that has been present from the beginning for this inadequate White man that would NEVER be allowed to Hillary or any Non-White candidate..is obvious.
Chris
@germy:
Yep. They kept asking her what she stood for, she kept telling them. Turns out they wanted incoherent posturing gibberish, not actual answers.
schrodingers_cat
Fuck the Nazi enabling Vichy Times. They are dead to me, now and forever.
Mary G
It has been a revelation to me how much misogyny is embedded in the media. Thrush is one of the biggest, but Josh Barro isn’t far behind, and of course, Andrew Sullivan is the original “HOW DARE ANYONE BUT MY CRUSH MAGGIE THATCHER” be a politician with a vagina?
And the NYT needs to get out of the butthurt bunker mentality. Maggie Haberman always comes reflexively to the defense of any other reporter, as do all the editors. Just admit it when you fuck up. It’s the coverup that will kill you.
They are a typical abuse victim. The right wing has convinced them to move to the right by constantly screaming at them and they think if they just do the perfect job every time the Republicans and their enablers will finally stop hitting them. Newsflash, people, abusers don’t change their stripes and if the NYT came out with an article saying that President Trump is a better person than Jesus, the Republicans would still hate their guts and hit them more often and harder.
Kay
I’d just like to add that she’s not the only one who thought she was going to win. In fact, the DEFENSE for the shitty coverage of Trump was all of political media thought she was going to win. That’s supposedly why they didn’t ask him any questions or do any research.
schrodingers_cat
@manfrommadras: BTW old troll with a new nym, it is Chennai not Madras.
geg6
@manfrommadras:
Fuck off, asshole. She has no reason to man up since SHE ISN’T A FUCKING ASSHOLE MAN!
She takes responsibility for her own mistakes. You just want her out there beating herself up for your pleasure. Fuck that. We women have had just about enough of that kind of shit. You can just go “man up” and watch as women, once again, take the lead on making shit happen. Fucking stupid “progressive” men are the most worthless pieces of shit there are. Who is leading the resistance? Who is taking the lead on launching candidacies for 2018? Here’s a hint, dickhead. It isn’t you stupid fucking men.
hitless
@manfrommadras:
I’m tired of blaming Democrats for not saving the country from itself. The American public that voted for Trump let this country down. This isn’t Clinton’s fault.
Mnemosyne
@manfrommadras:
Donald Trump ran as an out-and-proud white supremacist and states with voter suppression laws that just happen to primarily affect non-white voters squeaked out a victory for Trump.
What is your plan to battle white supremacist memes in the next election? Be specific. Because if you don’t think they’re going to use that playbook again, you’re too naive to be in politics.
eemom
Dunno if y’all saw the big Democratic “study” being touted yesterday that came down on the side of the berniebro narrative — i.e., yes, the loss really WAS because Hillz didn’t suck up enough to unemployed white men. In some parallel universe where voter suppression, Comey, Vladimir For Trump, Clinton hatred, sexism, and a shit media never existed.
Not usually a fan of Kevin Drum but he has a good smackdown.
Brachiator
People who do not owe anyone a goddam thing, especially an apology or an explanation
Barack Obama
Hillary Clinton
James Bond
I love that exchange. Just love it.
Yeah, I guess that Twitter is now a part of the mainstream media. But I don’t know who this Thrush guy is, nor do I care.
But I take your point, Betty Cracker. Fools insist on trying to bash Clinton even after she freely acknowledges and takes responsibility for her loss. At this point, analysis belongs to historians. I only wish Clinton well and look forward to seeing what she does going forward.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@manfrommadras: Your choice of words is revealing: “She didn’t do that, and that is another reason why she proved that she deserved to lose…” Hillary “deserved” to lose. And therefore, her loss must be primarily her fault. Your confirmation bias is showing.
Mary G
@hovercraft: I thought I read all the comments, but you made my point first and I missed it.
schrodingers_cat
@Mary G: Josh Barro’s father is a true believer ideological economist, a deficit hawk. So the apple didn’t fall too far from the tree.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Nate Silver shows there is clear evidence the Comey letter had an effect. Someone needs to kick the shit out of Glenn Thrush and the rest of the reporters at the NYT.
Ruckus
@divF:
This one sounds like a BS troll. Or like someone I know on FB who posted that while drumpf is a pile of the most vial shit on the planet, Hillary Clinton was an old dishonest hag.
Mnemosyne
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
Bernie can’t even accept that he lost the primary fair and square. He’s still pissed about that.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Mnemosyne: Uh oh, now you’ve done it.
Paula
@trollhattan: Wonkette’s piece: love it.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Mary G:
consider this stolen
hitless
@Kay: I totally agree. How is anything Clinton said news on the day the Trump said he wants a government shutdown? It’s his job to run it. The double standard the media has is so ridiculous that it’s a farce.
Brachiator
People who do not owe anyone a goddam thing, especially an apology or an explanation
Barack Obama
Hillary Clinton
James Bond
I love that exchange. Just love it.
Yeah, I guess that Twitter is now a part of the mainstream media. But I don’t know who this Thrush guy is, nor do I care.
But I take your point, Betty Cracker. Fools insist on trying to bash Clinton even after she freely acknowledges and takes responsibility for her loss. At this point, analysis belongs to historians. I only wish Clinton well and look forward to seeing what she does going forward.
ETA. Arrgh! Got moderated. Think I see why.
efgoldman
@manfrommadras:
Hey look, boys and girls! A brand new Wilmerbot (or an old one with a new name). This one can’t read any better than the rest of them, but having discovered BJ. s/he probably won’t go away.
Oh, and when’s the last time you had a date, or even showered?
Good job, Wilmerbot. Just a reminedeer that this is a 24/7 blog, so you better stock up on the Dew and Cheetos. You can ask mom, she’ll get you some more and leave them in the basement where you live.
Kay
@rikyrah:
The rap on her, the criticism, is that she’s inauthentic.
Everyone knows what the answer to this question is supposed to be:”it was all me”. But she doesn’t think that’s true, so she said it. That’s an honest answer. They don’t LIKE the answer but don’t fucking ask questions if you’re looking for a certain answer. Do they want to know what she thinks or not?
rikyrah
@Sinnach:
they don’t want to be held accountable for what they did NOT do in 2016. they don’t want to be accountable.
MJS
I will be getting a Twitter account tonight just so I can follow Thrush and tell him to fuck himself.
ruemara
@manfrommadras: ESDIAF
A Ghost to Most
@manfrommadras: In my best Roger Daltrey voice: Who the fuck are you?
FTFCDNYT>
Paula
@Mary G:
Seriously, you’d think they’d have figure that out by now.
TenguPhule
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Don’t look at me, I don’t own any steel toed boots.
Iowa Old Lady
@eemom: I say again, she got more votes–more than Sanders, more than Trump. If that’s screwing up, we need some other D candidates to screw up.
laura
@manfrommadras: “man up”? Really, the mysogynist doesn’t fall far from the tree.
How about eat a bag of salted dicks?
Fuck your mansplaining, and fuck you.
trollhattan
@schrodingers_cat:
There’s a Madras, Oregon and it so happens there’s a Portland in Oregon too, and we all know who claimed to live in Portland….[shudder]
Speaking of trolls, one was floating “It has so not been proven Syria gassed their own people!” the other day, and on that bit of Russian-tinged wisdom I have this to offer.
schrodingers_cat
@trollhattan: That’s not BiP’s style, he was whiny and a bit of a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
Chris
@hitless:
So much this. We really are the only people in the entire country with any agency, according to the media, the right, and an increasingly loud and whiny segment of the too-good-for-us professional left.
GregMulka
@Chris: And taking on hard stance for a woman’s right to choose.
ruemara
@Chris: Amen.
Chris
@Brachiator:
James Bond has spent most of his career protecting us from sociopathic billionaires only to have us elect them to office. I can well imagine he’d be disappointed in us.
sab
@trollhattan: Thanks for the link to the Wonkettte article. It did make me feel better.
Smiling Mortician
So yeah. I’ve known that the NYT is garbage (thanks, Baud!) for a long time, but I was waiting for the last straw. Today was it. I sent a sharply-worded letter to the White Star Line, for what it’s worth. And my erstwhile NYT subscription $ is now going to a monthly donation to the Committee to Protect Journalists (taking my cue from Sam Bee and her Not the WHCD, which raised $200k for CPJ this past weekend).
efgoldman
@Mary G:
They can’t. They’ve been doing it too long.
Turgidson
@Tom Q:
I’ve made a couple of comments to that effect, but I am sure I saw someone else say it much the same way first. And certainly, the Clinton Rules (guilty until innocence is overwhelmingly proven, and even then, “shadows” persist, etc.) were a well-known problem with the political media as the 2016 campaign really got going. Vox had an early article or two about it, Pierce was warning us for years that a Clinton campaign would drive the media barking mad again, and there were others I’m sure.
But having advance warning did not prepare me, at least, for how stupefyingly awful the EMAILS and Foundation coverage ended up being.
I came into 2016 comfortable with, but not terribly excited about, a Hillary nomination and presidency. By the end of that rancid shitshow of a campaign, I was more staunchly in her corner than I would have imagined, in no small part because she was treated like such crap by so many, including people I respect and thought would know better, and she handled it all with as much class as her former boss would have, even as I’m sure she occasionally wanted to gouge certain pundits’, and Hair Furor’s, eyeballs out with a rusty nail file.
tobie
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
Wouldn’t that be something! St. Bernard admit a mistake? I can’t imagine it. By the way: does anyone here have an email address/comments link for Chris Hayes’ show? He’s become Bernie central on cable. I’d like his producer to know that’s why I no longer watch his show. It might help to get a bunch of people to write in.
BellyCat
@Mike in DC: You’re reading it.
Paula
@Turgidson:
Yep.
bupalos
Without really disagreeing with any of this from Ms. Cracker, I still don’t see how the best thing for all concerned wouldn’t be for the Clintons to just stay in hiding. Their brand is shot. We can all argue about why that is (and the fact is that we WILL argue about this every time it comes up) but it is what it is.
If she is going to come out, I really don’t want to hear anything about her losing or getting stabbed in the back or what court intrigue led her to lose to this total loser- true or not, this is just doesn’t help us. The good part of her brand that she has left (mostly) is that she’s hard-working and smart, she could be somewhat effective just steering everything around to how this guy is incompetent and lazy.
Turgidson
@themann1086:
Jesus. I shouldn’t be surprised by shit like that anymore, and I suppose I’m not. But it’s still annoying as fucking hell.
HRC would have loved nothing more than to have the media fall all over themselves to cover the policies she was offering. But I’m sure, in the beautiful minds of Glenn Thrush and that CNN dolt, it’s all Hillary’s fault that the media did not cover her policy agenda. All.Her.Fault. These fucking people.
The Moar You Know
@hitless: Not Clinton’s, not Obama’s, and not the Dems. This country has a huge problem with a political party, one that represents half the Republic that has committed to full-on nihilism. Nihilism in all aspects of life. And that party is not the Democratic party.
Really not the job of a party to save the country. We’re supposed to be making policy, improving the common welfare, making America better. Instead, our energy and money is being drained off to fight a never-ending series of attacks on the fundamentals of our lives – our jobs, our health, our freedoms. And the opposition, the GOP, knows that like with any other prey animal, when the attacks never stop, sooner or later we’ll get tired, fall down, and then they’ll eat us alive. And, as they’ve proven amply the last couple of months, they don’t even know what to do with America now that it’s broken and wounded and ready for eating.
I don’t have any answers but I damn sure know who is to blame, and it’s not the party that’s tried to keep American governance working. The party that thinks America is worth saving. The Democratic Party. Those who voted for Trump threw in the towel on all those things and decided to burn the nation down instead. And I suspect they will succeed, because there will come another looter and destroyer, after Trump.
Tazj
Hillary is supposed to emerge full of repentance and sullen and do tour of shame around the US. We Democrats are also supposed to feel guilty and ashamed for not caring enough about the wwc. It’s all our fault 45 got elected, not Republicans who were financially comfortable and should have damn well known 45 was a disaster. Those Republicans have somehow escaped all blame for any of this.
Yes, Hillary is far from perfect. Yes, her and her campaign made mistakes but if you couldn’t see the difference between her and 45, you’re ignorant or selfish that’s it.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@trollhattan: They wouldn’t happen to have cited Ted Postol, would they? That was posted at LGM a few weeks back, and while I don’t have the expertise to determine whether or not it’s valid, it set off a CPUSA meeting of red flags that the only remotely credible (i.e., “citing these positively will not immediately, thoroughly discredit you on the matter at hand”) sources touting the report came from interviews by The Nation and Stephen Rosenfeld.
And the gassing question is largely incidental to the intervention problem anyway: The most common rationale against Syrian intervention is that we have no clear ideas or means on how to materially improve the situation, and it’s a sorry theory of anti-interventionism that has to depend on the bad things simply not happening.
JMG
Nobody has ever won or lost an election by themselves and only due to their own decisions. Ever. The journalists who say Clinton ought to say that are betraying a basic ignorance of what they cover. I think the Times’ reporters super-defensiveness over their Clinton coverage stems from the fear she’ll break training and say, “The Times has had it in for Bill and I since 1992. They slanted their coverage against me horrendously. Now they’re selling themselves as a defense against Trump. Well fuck that. I’m canceling my subscription and you should too,”
That would cause them real harm, but she’d never do it,
Smiling Mortician
@trollhattan: Thank dog for Wonkette. And Balloon Juice, natch.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Mnemosyne: Also notice the double standard: the conversation around Candidate A who got 3 million more votes than her opponent, is frequently framed as how “she lost”, whereas the conversation around Candidate B, who got 3 million less votes than his opponent is never framed as how “he lost.”
geg6
@Turgidson:
Every word of this. Every fucking word.
And at this point, I would defend her with my own life. Her class and strength throughout what must have been one of the worst ordeals anyone in American politics has had to endure for many years have been a huge inspiration to me. And to a whole lot of other women I know.
beth
Listening to CNN in the car this afternoon, Jake Tapper started his show today saying something like “Hillary Clinton took full responsibility for her loss, except when she blamed James Comey, the Russians, Wikileaks and the media”. They’ve got their story and they are sticking to it.
patroclus
I think some of you are over-reacting. Thrush and his ilk don’t hate Hillary, it’s just both siderism. They’ve been covering Trump critically, so they feel like they have to cover Hillary critically. It’s like the campaign – if Trump said or did something stupid, then we just had to hear about e-mails, and because that was a daily occurrence with Trump, it merited, in their view, a daily e-mail story. Same thing today – David Broder lives on. It doesn’t make sense – Hillary isn’t in office and isn’t running for office – but with both siderism, the rules are the rules.
Her campaign is going to be hashed and rehashed. Hopefully, we’ll learn some lessons from it. Visiting Wisconsin and focusing on issues rather than Trump’s personality (like was finally done with Berlusconi) are a couple of them.
Paula
@geg6:
Yep.
Elizabelle
@Smiling Mortician: That’s brilliant.
Turning your FTFNYTimes sub money over to the Committee to Protect Journalists.
Well done, grasshopper.
Smiling Mortician
@Kay:
Compare/contrast with Trump’s CBS interview yesterday when the reporter actually had to say “But I want to know your opinion. You’re the president of the United States.” And Trump said “You figure it out. We’re done here.”
Jeezus feckin’ Christ on a Triscuit.
Smiling Mortician
@BellyCat: MediaMatters also does a fair job of it. Not enough focus on not-Fox news, but still.
efgoldman
@bupalos:
Fuck you
She’s as accomplished a person as we’ve had in this country in my lifetime. She can do what she wants, but she has more to offer than you’d ever dream of. She should be as public or private as she wants, but she doesn’t have to go live in a convent under a vow of silence beacause YOU, or the fucking New York Times, or the mouth breathing flying monkeys, want her to.
Go fuck yourself.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@patroclus: At the beginning of the campaign cycle, Digby documented that (among other chickenfuckers) Dylan Byers admitted that the media prime directive would be to sandbag Clinton should she run.
Smiling Mortician
@bupalos: Fuck “branding.” “Branding” is a huge part of the goddamn problem. Government isn’t marketing. At least, it didn’t used to be — and it ain’t supposed to be.
Turgidson
@geg6:
And on top of everything else, she has a bunch of smug dipshits like Andrew Sullivan, Ron Fournier, a whole host of know-it-all white progressives, and whoever else blaming her personally for destroying the world, and rolling their eyes so hard it’s a wonder they don’t blind themselves when she rightly points out that in the end, it was probably Comey and the hacked emails that put Hair Furor over the top.
Hopefully she gives as much of a shit about those people’s opinions as they deserve.
Aleta
removed
Cacti
“But her e-mails” will be the epitaph of the republic.
Chris
@efgoldman:
As an addendum to this, did Mitt Romney go into hiding after his embarrassing defeat? Did John McCain? For that matter, did John Kerry and Al Gore? Why only the Clintons?
Smiling Mortician
@patroclus:
There’s no such thing as “just” both siderism. The word for it is “dishonesty.” Nothing “just” (or “merely” or whatever) about it.
Aleta
Racist terror threats against Taylor Dumpson, a junior majoring in law and society who’s the first black female student president of American University, and threats against her sorority. Students are marching in protest today; the university has not acted strongly enough in the past, including racist incidents 9 months ago. I think this is her first week in office.
Also, police have changed their story about their murder of Jordan Edwards, a freshman at Mesquite High School (15 years old, black) in cold blood while he was riding in a car that they shot up for no legal reason while it was leaving a a party in Texas. Police first lied about what happened, then changed the story because video contradicted it.
Goku
@Mary G:
It’s almost like they can’t take any criticism or be wrong at all. Crazy
Chris
@Cacti:
I’ve already decided that if (not likely, but not impossible with this guy) Donald Trump starts a war with another nuclear power, my last Facebook comment will be a link to some article about how the nukes just started flying, with the comment “yeah, but her emails.”
Goku
@Cacti: And “Just Give Him a Chance”
Goku
@Chris: Don’t despair! You might survive and get that shower curtain rod to roast a mutated sparrow over a fire underneath the ruins of a freeway overpass, feeling content that all the uppity BLM darkies are dead. Watch out for the murderous post-industrial warlords, though.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@different-church-lady:
I hear he’s nice.
Chris
@Goku:
I mean, I live in the DC area, so probably not.
If the nukes hit while I’m at work, I’m instantly dead. (Northern Virginia). If they hit while I’m at home (Maryland, end of the metro line), I might theoretically survive, but they’ll probably hit the area with so many nukes that I’d have to be a lot further away.
And that’s fine with me, honestly. In case of nuclear war, better to die instantly than “survive.”
Thoroughly Pizzled
The national media, the Stein voters, the Bernie-or-Busters, all those fuckers and moral freeloaders, one day they’ll be in textbooks to illustrate the tragedy of the commons. “It’s fine, she’ll win easily–WORST CANDIDATE EVAR!!!”
Michael Moore is annoying, but I give him credit for 1) actually anticipating Hillary’s loss and 2) trying to do something about it rather than assuming that his one straw couldn’t possibly break the camel’s back.
Turgidson
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
Her EC defeat was due to less than 100k votes spread across three different states. The post-Comey polls show, uniformly, that her support dropped 2-3% or so nationally. It takes a special kind of stupidity or willful ignorance (not mutually exclusive, of course) to assert or even imply that the Comey letter had nothing to do with her loss.
That doesn’t mean her campaign didn’t make other mistakes. But the Comey letter was undeniably the single biggest, “but for”, cause of her loss. You could say the campaign’s other mistakes contributed to making it close enough for the Comey letter to tip the balance. But that’s as far as I’d go. Comey did it. And even that sanctimonious faux-last-honest-man prick must know it.
pat
I think another reason for Hillary’s defeat is that too many people couldn’t get their heads around a woman president, and Bill as the First Spouse.
Sad.
germy
Smiling Mortician
@Elizabelle: Thank you, master. :-)
Mary G
@Turgidson: @geg6: Youse two are on fire today. You’ve expressed exactly how I have come to feel about Hillary. Like Obama, before the election got going I thought she was likeable enough, but boring. Having actually listened to her responses and read her positions, I came to think she would make a great President, and I will resent forever that that didn’t happen, and I will also defend her to my last breath. The grace she has shown since the election is remarkable. It would have crushed anyone else.
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
No, they know alright.
But they’re working up the nerve to actually do it.
Wayne Pierre isn’t speaking to a vacuum.
Goku
@Chris: I live in northeast Ohio. Youngstown specifcally. Literally nowheresville. Nothing around here except a small Air Force base. The steel industry is long gone. Still auto manufacturing a few miles away. Probably good chances of “surviving” when not taking fallout into account. What do you think?
manfrommadras
@randy khan: Dude, what about the decision to skip visiting Wisconsin and then not focusing on the Midwest Rust Belt states. Its clear there is a strain of misogyny running through the Clinton haters who did not support her, but the facts of the election are pretty clear. She was a lousy candidate, who spoke through canned soundbites and focused way too much on identity politics instead of identifying the needs of a majority of the voting audience. The very fact that the she claimed events of the last 10 days swung against her, is proof that folks were looking for any excuse to support the other guy. Not a great case for a supposedly strong candidate, especially if the other guy was a moron like Trump.
A Ghost to Most
@Chris:
In the air force, I was stationed in the building that controlled the US strategic nuclear system.
Literally, ground zero. We planned to run outside and try to catch the first one, if they ever came (mid 70s)
Tenar Arha
@MJS: Go forth & say f*ck off. Just know in advance he’ll probably block you. ;)
rikyrah
New Opportunities for Dems Come With Opportunity Costs
by Martin Longman May 2, 2017 11:30 AM
One of the interesting things to look for as our country’s politics enter a new phase of more rapid realignment is cases where this messes with the assumptions that were made when our congressional districts were gerrymandered after the last Census. The Republicans did so well in the 2010 midterms that they had a huge national advantage when it came time to redraw districts, but Illinois was a rare exception where the Democrats were able to use gerrymandering to the max to carve out a few extra seats.
And then a funny thing happened:
This is the flip side or positive aspect of the change in voting patterns that cost Hillary Clinton the election. Even as she hemorrhaged votes in small towns and rural regions, Trump lost almost as many votes in the suburbs (and some suburbanizing exurbs). And it’s not just that these areas are getting younger and more ethnically diverse. Trumpism doesn’t sell well even with tax-averse white professional Romney Republicans, let alone with sophisticated college-educated women who may have been raised to see the Republican Party as a signifier of their status. There’s nothing high class about that Access Hollywood tape.
Of course, there’s a certain risk of perversion of purpose if the party of the underprivileged and dispossessed becomes reliant on the three-car garage set for their votes, and that’s a likely side effect of a realignment like this. Votes are always welcome, of course, but chasing after these voters could come with an opportunity cost if it prevents the Democrats from realizing that their power is eroding badly in this trade. And, of course, there’s the moral element to consider, which is that a left that’s worth its name doesn’t leave people behind.
Elizabelle
@manfrommadras: You go fuck yourself, little dear.
Madras is calling. They want you back. Buh bye.
Turgidson
@manfrommadras:
Hindsight is 20/20. Tell me you’d look at this polling average and realize you need to spend finite time and resources campaigning there, as opposed to the several states that looked much closer.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/wi/wisconsin_trump_vs_clinton-5659.html
and for that matter, tell me that the Comey letter did NOT in fact swing the 20k or so votes HRC lost by in Wisconsin.
Smiling Mortician
@manfrommadras: Everything you’ve said here today is bullshit. But this:
is bullshit squared. Let’s see . . . women + black people + LGBT people + immigrants + ethnic/religious minorities + poor people + educated people is somehow NOT a majority of the voting audience because only the opposite (white straight male Christians with money but not a lot of education) is the “majority”?
Fuck off. She won the majority, and not in the “wrong” states. There are no “wrong” states. There is, however, the fucking electoral college that allows people who vote in Wyoming to have their votes count for nearly 4 times as much as those in California.
Definitely her fault.
rikyrah
@Turgidson:
I hear you.
Patricia Kayden
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: And she should be shunned from polite society for having the nerve to run for President after Republicans demonized her and her husband for over 20 years. How dare she think her qualifications would override the sexism that still exists in this country? What the hell was she thinking?
This is the same media which interviewed Palin and Romney time and time again after they lost elections. But now they’re ready to demonize Secretary Clinton whenever she raises her head in the political realm.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Turgidson: Yes.
rikyrah
Mark Sanford not optimistic on OCare repeal, tells me that “full repeal was, in essence, a pipe dream from the very start.”
— Alexandra Jaffe (@ajjaffe) May 2, 2017
Sanford said “I don’t see a road to passage at this point” for the GOP healthcare bill.
— Alexandra Jaffe (@ajjaffe) May 2, 2017
pat
@Patricia Kayden:
Yep.
Patricia Kayden
@MJS: I’m tempted to do that sometimes too. I’m firmly with Schodinger’s Cat and other commenters here who despise the NYT. They continue to be awful. What the hell did Secretary Clinton and President Clinton do to the NYT to cause this rampant hatred? It appears that they just cannot report on either of the Clintons (or even Chelsea now) without throwing mud.
Chris
@Goku:
Well, with the Air Force base, there’s some hope that you’ll be targeted, I guess?
@A Ghost to Most:
That wouldn’t be
Stargate CommandNORAD in Cheyenne Mountain, would it?schrodingers_cat
mfm’s style is closer to goblue72 or Neo Russian
Kay
@bupalos:
The forum is called “women for women”. She’s the woman who has gotten closest to the Presidency.
The. As in “one”.
Patricia Kayden
@manfrommadras:
Explain in detail how exactly Secretary Clinton did this. I’m waiting.
Brachiator
@Chris:
Ha! So true…
ThresherK
@rikyrah:
Has he looked off-road, for a trail, perhaps?
efgoldman
@rikyrah:
Asserts facts not in evidence.
Most R voters came home to daddy when they voted. They may not like “Trumpism”, but like so-called “reasonable” Republiklowns in the senate (Suzy Q Collins and Grandpa Walnuts) their votes are as predictable as the sunrise.
Hobbes83
This post could have just consisted of Thrush’s tweet, and a hearty “go fuck yourself with a power tool,” and it would have been just as powerful. I know that context matters, but seriously, Thrush can GDIAF.
Timurid
I knew there is a Madras in India (aka Chennai) and a Madras in Oregon. Today I learned there is a Madras in Russia.
In other news, no wonder Nunes wanted to shut her up…
Patricia Kayden
@Aleta: Wow. I’ve heard about your second story but never heard of the first one. We can expect a plethora of these kinds of stories under Trump now that racists feel that they can fly their freak flags high and publicly. Just more reasons to resist Trump and his White Supremacist ideology. But hey, we have manfrommadras telling us how Secretary Clinton focused too much on those annoying Black and Brown people (i.e., identity politics). He has nothing to say about all the racism which has been unleashed under Trump’s regime.
Corner Stone
@schrodingers_cat: I normally don’t care, but Derf is derfing everyone here.
Corner Stone
One of the worst things that could have happened was when SNL did their parody of G Thrush on the Spicey segment.
Kay
@Hobbes83:
She’s not allowed to mention “outside factors” – we all have to pretend Comey didn’t interfere in the election, media didn’t go absolutely fucking bonkers with the email coverage, and Russia didn’t interfere.
We weren’t allowed to mention how Bush won either. The idea seems to be if we pretend these things didn’t happen it will be easier for everyone. She wouldn’t play. Good for her.
Turgidson
@rikyrah:
OK, but does he see an Appalachian Trail to repeal?
hovercraft
@bupalos:
WTF?
Why should she, they stay hidden? What did they do wrong? Since when does losing ans election mean that you lose your right to speak freely? Last time I checked fucking Bernie Sanders will not shut the fuck up, and last time I checked he lost the primary to the worlds worst candidate ever, what the hell does that say about him? Who apart from the Clinton haters thinks that any Clinton will be running for any goddamn office anytime soon? If women and people of color and the LGBT community had shut up and “hidden” after every “failure” or disappointment, we wouldn’t be where we are now, we fight on, we don not shut up and hide, that’s how we make progress. If this shit was easy it would have been done already. They don’t get to create a bullshit narrative about the reason for her loss absolving themselves of all responsibility. Shit like this may trouble you or not seem worthwhile to you, but to some of us correcting the record is important, and it’s motivating us to keep on fighting. If Bernie and JS supporters want to come and shit on Hillary and her supporters bring it, but they need to understand that more of us voted for her than for them, and since neither of them is a democrat, shitting on people who are isn’t going to get you anywhere.
Corner Stone
Rep Jim Jordan, along with all his fellow FC members, are pure and simple monsters. That is all.
Kay
How IS that ‘ol Russia investigation coming along anyway? Are we being ordered to “move on” yet?
I never heard another fucking word about how they interfered in congressional races. Would it be too impolite to ask if anyone is looking into that? I don’t want to be a blamer.
A Ghost to Most
@Chris:
Nope. Building 500, Offutt AFB, Omaha. Strategic Air Command HQ. NORAD was incoming, SAC was outgoing.
“Piece is Our Profession; War is Just a Hobby”
schrodingers_cat
@Corner Stone: You are probably right. The style is familiar. BTW has your appetite returned? I made chicken tikka on the grill the other day. It was pretty good.
Baud
@Turgidson: Ditto.
Goku
I’ll just leave this here:https://www.google.com/amp/www.radiotimes.com/amp/news/2017-01-30/james-bond-screenwriters-say-trump-makes-it-difficult-to-continue-the-007-franchise
schrodingers_cat
@hovercraft: Upper caste Hindu widows were supposed to disappear from public view after their husband’s death. B’s rationale strikes me as some what similar.
D58826
I can’t find the Tweet to link to but apparently Hillary was rude and condescending to rural voters when she said that cell/internet service in to many rural areas sucks. Never mind that it a fact. And more to the point never mind that the full answer to the question was:
1. cell/internet service in rural areas sucks
2. these areas will be hard pressed to attract 21st century jobs w/o good connectivity
3. she had a plan to provide quality high speed affordable internet/cell service to all Americans (needless to say that was never mentioned by the media during the campaign).
If we could do rural electrification in the 1930’s why not internet for all in the 21st century.
I wouldn’t blame the Clinton’s if they bough a nice tropical island somewhere and retired there to spoil their grand kids. Once a year they would hold a short press conference in which they flip the bird to the media.
ruemara
@Patricia Kayden: She let those black voters count in the primary instead of disavowing the South and ceding victory to Saint Wilmer of the White Working Class
Turgidson
@Kay:
I don’t think the order to move on has come down yet, but Congress and the Senate seem to have moved on, and most of the dipshit media is content to chase the shiny object of the day, so they aren’t saying much lately either.
The FBI is presumably still looking, but James Comey, unsullied upholder of upstandingness who would never ever violate DOJ or bureau norms ever because integrity, will obviously not comment on an ongoing investigation, so who knows where that stands.
Chris
@A Ghost to Most:
Ah, that. Still really cool.
Baud
@Goku: They should have Bond fight Trump!
Goku
http://www.c4dt.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Bond.png
Lamer than lame
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Sinnach:
Also Barack Obama needs permission from white leftists and Van Jones for how and from whom the first black president can make money as a private citizen.
@geg6:
Co sign. Useless self-absorbed clueless privileged over-entitled pieces of shit.
schrodingers_cat
@D58826: In the last town I lived, we were deemed too small to have internet by the big companies like Comcast and Verizon, the town went ahead and built its own fiber optic backbone. This town is pretty close to a big college town. Four of the five years I lived there we had to rely on Verizon’s hot spot for intertoobz. Oh and btw the town still has no cable.
Patricia Kayden
@bupalos: Wow. So she should just stay in hiding and exile herself for reasons? Ok. Got it. Our side pushes our losing presidential candidates off the plane. Republicans who have lost elections appear from time to time on t.v. to run their mouths about what’s going on. Duly noted.
Wjs
@Turgidson: Yes. A thousand times this.
Jacel
@Mike in DC: “Media Whores Online” needs to resurface, 24/7.
Goku
@Chris: My bad, its an air reserve station
bupalos
@efgoldman:
Yeah and I’m 7 feet tall and can dunk with my eyes closed. This is meaningless hyperbole. She’s altogether just fine, despite her not really being as left as I’d like on issues I’ve worked on, I came to genuinely respect her as potentially an effective pragmatic politician that could help us move the ball forward. But please. Fuzzy Clinton hagiography is not what we need, much as it gives you more excuses to shout fuck you at people. I guarantee you Trump is Trumpgasming right now with the opening to tweet about his big win and loser crooked Hillary whining!!! He’s probably running to the copier to crank out more of his election maps right now.
Politics is a team sport, I’m open to hearing a counter opinion about how her answering these excuse-baiting questions helps democrats more than it hurts, but this “she can do what she wants, she’s the bestest person ever lived better than you times infinity” ain’t helping me understand this.
D58826
@schrodingers_cat:
The irony is that in the early days cable was a way to get TV programming to these small towns and out of the way places where a broadcast signal didn’t or could not reach.
Tazj
@Mary G: Agree.
I’ve also had it with the professional bros telling me I don’t know what a real liberal is.
Immanentize
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: @geg6:
I will still take progressive self absorbed white male dipshits over ignorant hateful armed racists in the dead of night every time. Eyes on the prize.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Chris:
We’re the only adults, and the bratty whiny children of the unicorn left holding out their outstretched hands waiting for their utopian ideals to fall out of the sky into their outstretched hands while threatening to cut themselves and run away from home because they’re mad at Mommy need to be tied to Wilmer and join bin Laden at the bottom of the ocean.
A Ghost to Most
@Chris:
Omaha vs Colorado (Springs, but still) for 3.5 years? Omaha was a nice town, but..
manfrommadras
I’ve been a life long Democrat and progressive, a proud two term supporter of Obama ( and a proud, paid supporter of Balloon juice for over 8 years now). I wanted her to win because I believe in the Democratic party ticket and its philosophy, but reading the reactions to my comments above makes me realize how crazy you all are. Instead of responding to my argument, I’ve heard arguments for being a troll and a Russian agent, which is hilarious and sad too. Not once, have I read anything which points to the mistakes she made. Are you telling me that she is pure as the driven snow and would be a great president if not for (Comey /Trump /The Alt-Right /Misogynistic voters/fill in the blanks etc..). Obama won twice against the same voting population, while she couldn’t close the sale. Sorry, fellas, she just wasn’t good enough. And the more you keep pointing fingers at others, instead of looking in the mirror to figure out what went wrong, the longer it will take for the D’s to get back to power.
Goku
@Baud: https://i.imgflip.com/107z2s.jpg
Here you go, sorta
ruemara
@manfrommadras: Again, ESDIAF
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Immanentize:
I don’t agree. I can see those people as my enemies and know who, what where and how they are and how to identify them- it’s the ones who pretend to want the same things as me and you, who pretend to be allies, but undermine and sideline snipe unless they get their bratty way. I’ll make room, but I won’t step aside. No fucking way.
Goku
@D58826: That must of sucked, not even getting to watch the Big 3 on the rabbit ears back in the day. Radio was a thing, but thst’s still hard to imagine when compared to now
hovercraft
@Turgidson:
THIS!
They succeeded in turning me into a diehard supported.
Wjs
@manfrommadras: “zero clarity” is one of those phony terms used by people who are nitpicking their way through something that was said that contains more than enough information to refute everything they want to believe is the opposite of what they read. Can you just shut up now? Reasonable people agree that HRC knows she blames herself to the appropriate degree. Her intellectual honesty is evident in her remarks. Where is yours?
[This is rhetorical and does not require an answer]
les
@manfrommadras:
Be nice if you knew where she could get some. “Hillary Bad, Hillary Bad, Hillary Bad!!!!” Yeah, you’re helpful. But at least Trump was a guy, amirite?
piratedan
imho this all comes back to sho is setting the narrative, who is putting the frame on the statements. Those are the folks that need to have their heads on pikes imho.. Did Clinton say what she said… yes, she sure as hell did…
and then was it it cut up and taken out of context, absolutely
Everyone sees the first, no one sees the 2nd, except for us junkies and then the Media holds up their arms and says, we simply reported what she said…. its fucking dishonest, and in many cases illegal (imho) in the way that they completely misrepresent ideas, concepts and positions. Hell, thanks to them, I’d bet that 60% of America still doesn’t understand what was “wrong” about “HER” e-mails…. only that someone said that something was wrong or that someone, somehow parsed a lie out of her based on how her statements were misrepresented based on how it was all framed.
I don’t care that she wasn’t a perfect candidate, I don’t that she made mistakes, she’s human, its gonna happen… but to equate whatever wrongdoing she may have done in comparison to the GOP candidate(or candidates for that matter) and their inability to have the same kind of scrutiny is just unfathomable. These fuckers STILL don’t see it and most likely never will until it happens to their wives and daughters.
Elie
I’m so sad when I read our continuing self-defeating thought patterns!
In my legislative district Democratic group we are supposedly focused on developing messages for local and state races and to select candidates who we then support. We have a list-serve to communicate about the issues arising while we do it, but unfortunately, there is a group of Bernie-ites who spend more time re-litigating “why Hillary lost” than how we can win! Its all I can do not to go nuts on these people but I don’t want to make the situation worse. Their behavior is NOT helpful to our charge… These folks behave as though the only people who supported candidates in this district were all Bernie folks! The lack of awareness is just shocking and unbelievably short sited for what we need. Instead of coming together, we are continuing to cleave ourselves into “us and them”. Its like some horrible prion disease (as Charlie Pierce puts it) — where our brains don’t function anymore. And for what/why? What do they or we get out of it?
We also have to be careful to not amplify this negative thought pattern among ourselves. It ends up depressing us and disempowering us from doing what we need to do to survive and thrive. We have to forgive them and forgive ourselves somehow… the ongoing resentment is so easy to continue, even as it is immensely destructive… We gotta stop it.
petesh
@hovercraft: Yea, verily!
Who gives a flying fuck about the Clinton “brand”? I care about people, not “brands.” (Well, I confess I do hate the Trump brand, but I hated that long before he got into politics.) I do want to hear what Hillary has to say; yeah, I might get bored with it after a while, but she does not seem to be whining and she does know more about government than anyone in Trump’s White House or Cabinet. How would she improve NAFTA (if at all)? What would she recommend as a stop-gap to save the ACA before moving on to improve it? Just for a start …
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@manfrommadras:
You’re a dipshit. You want both parties to center whites/males. The first instant whites/males aren’t coddled, the whites/males of the left and right ally. It’s called white male supremacy, and you’re Exhibit A. Your and Wilmer’s “identity politics” is women and PoC demanding first class citizenship, something you and that fraud Sanders are willing to negotiate away. NO.
EriktheRed
@manfrommadras: So you’re basically saying (like Thrush) that it doesn’t matter if she accepted responsibility for her won failings in the campaign if she didn’t list them out, too?
Please feel free to go piss up rope.
hovercraft
@efgoldman:
Two thumbs up.
neldob
@manfrommadras:She should “man up”? Really? And misogyny had nothing to do with it? pfthui!
chopper
i’m not at all interested in going back over the election and how and why the tangelo of doom won, but i will say that clinton is spot on here. fuck these fuckers.
Goku
@manfrommanchuria
Sure you are, bud. And no I don’t literally think you’re a Russian troll. But here’s the thing: Clinton has acknowledged her shortcomings in her campaign, it’s up above. The real problem is that people like you refuse to concede that outside factors influenced the election. It’s not Clinton’s or our fault that the Republicans are ruthless enough as to accept help from a hostile foreign dicatorship in transforming the US in one party police state.
If the Republicans have their way neither Democrats or leftists of any kind will regain power
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@manfrommadras: Whatever, Boris.
bupalos
@Patricia Kayden:
That would be my take, yes, except I mean, the “reasons” are that the game isn’t over here and the game isn’t about any one of our politicians. If she’s not going to be disciplined about what she says and insist on answering baiting questions and play to Trump’s hopes, she should go ahead and stay in the background. This isn’t about someone’s “right,” or “setting the record straight” or “refusing to be a victim…” this is about how do we help the team from here. And I’ve said, I think she can, but it has to be smarter than that.
This is 101 level stuff. You take more blame than you deserve and let other people make the excuses for you.
Q. Did you fumble because it was -10 and the other team was spraying it with water?
A. I need to hold on to the ball there. What they did with the ball is pretty much public record now, but I need to take account of that and hold on to it. I knew they’d try stuff, this is their track record, I made the mistake of not realizing quickly enough how far they’d go.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
Baud
@bupalos: If she is forced out, I leave too. I don’t see how that helps the party.
geg6
@Immanentize:
I have yet to see much difference between them. Feel free to show me examples of how much these “progressive” men champion women’s right to self determination, civil rights for people of color and immigrants…you know, all those “identity politics” issues we’re told we should forget about in order to usher in the great socialist era. You have examples of the opposite right here in this thread from “progressive” males. I have no use for “progressive” men. Liberal men, yes. “Progressive” men? Fuck them and their king, Wilmer.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
Goku
@manfrommadras: Open your eyes you idiot. The Republicans are authoritarians who want to to turn this nation into a defacto one party state. They accepted help from a foreign dictatorship to rig the election. If they get their way in disenfranchising enough voters, neither the Dems or anyone left will regain power again
BC in Illinois
@Smiling Mortician:
This is a very late comment, and this is a very late action, but I also cancelled my subscription to the NYT online today.
I signed up for a year – – in the middle of the election – – figuring it was unethical to keep scrubbing the cookies out of my account every 10 stories or so. I told them I was going to miss Paul Krugman and Gail Collins and Charles Blow. I was not going to miss the Climate denailist. I told them that I will always regret supporting their 2016 election mis-coverage and mis-conduct .But my final line was
Elie
@manfrommadras:
Man, so what are your ideas for going forward — you know — the future? What kind of messages and approaches to build on what we had — which if you recall, was a 3 million vote superiority. That said, WE (yes, WE) lost three states by less than 100K votes, which says to me we did ok in much of the country. Not sure we need to slash and burn all our ideas, but how can we improve our communication and what we do to select and support good candidates?
Wjs
@bupalos: yeah because this is all just like football. People losing everything, the economy crashing, Russians holding the POTUS in their hands, diplomacy shot to hell–its no different than a goddamned game. Apt metaphor, fuckstick.
Chris
@EriktheRed:
I’m genuinely curious what “the reasons” that would be listed would actually be, considering that the polls all showed her as a clear winner and that, in fact, not just the media but no less an authority than the FBI had to put its hand on the scale in order to upset that. (Maybe Bernie would’ve weathered that better. I rather doubt it).
That was, in fact, key to the both-sides-do-it Berniebro fringe’s arguments all the way until November 2016: Hillary is obviously going to win, so I can afford to be pure and sit this one out.
geg6
@manfrommadras:
Fellas. Seriously? You are truly clueless.
Corner Stone
@bupalos: IOW, HRC should STFU and GTFA.
Print your comment out, find a mirror and read it to yourself. If at the end you do not look up and see Resting Bitch Face looking back at you then you are too stupid to comment on politics.
Goku
@Elie: Trump’s support is a mile wide and an inch deep. He CAN be defeated. I believe enough will be at least demoralized to win the next election. However, winning in 2020 doesn’t really solve the fact that we have an out of control authoritarian party and enough crazy voters to threaten our democracy. I don’t know how to solve that. Short of civil war and there’s guarantee the left would win
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@manfrommadras
Were is the non appology in this please?
Seriously guy, is your’ problem you are just a god damn, fraking idiot?
NR
@geg6:
I will once again point out the fact that Bernie Sanders had a better position on abortion than Hillary Clinton.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
Lee Hartmann
Thrush is a fungus.
http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/guide/what-is-thrush#1
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@NR:
Goku
@N(R): Comrade!?
NR
@Goku: We have to do ANYTHING to get the Republicans out of power!
Anything, it seems, other than change the party’s policies and approach to have a greater appeal to working-class voters, it seems.
hovercraft
@schrodingers_cat:
I’m thinking they’d be even happier if they could create a new form of suttee just for her, no husbands funeral pyre required just a self-immolation so they never have to hear from her again and face their complicity.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
Goku
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Take N(R) to the BURN unit, stat. Third degree berns, baby
geg6
@NR:
No, he doesn’t. You can say this shit all day long but it’s simply not true. What has Bernie ever done to back that up? Does he fund raise for Planned Parenthood? What legislation has he ever put on the table? Why does he keep telling us that we have to move on from “identity politics”?
EriktheRed
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: this is why I continue to refer to myself as a Liberal white male. The Bernie-bro movement has pretty much ruined the p-word.
Betty Cracker
@manfrommadras & @bupalos: Did either of y’all actually watch the clips of the event? Did you take into account the venue, i.e., the “Women for Women” summit?
I’ll assume “no” and clue you in: Clinton was answering questions from Amanpour, not giving an exhaustive account of election mistakes. (You can read all about that in her upcoming book! Perhaps it’ll fulfill even your steep mea culpa quota!)
What she said was factually TRUE. And she’s the only female nominee from a major party in the 241-year history of this country, so some of us are interested in what she has to say.
bupalos
@Baud: I don’t know where we get “forced out” from. But I don’t get the personal loyalty to particular politicians thing. I’d leave the party if and when it’s platform wasn’t an important part of addressing the issues I care about. Which political figures are standing at the head of that party is almost completely a matter of political expedience to me.
geg6
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
Heh.
geg6
@bupalos:
Because you are a white man. Period.
EriktheRed
@manfrommadras:
There were plenty talking about her mistakes. Again, go piss up a rope.
Goku
@NR: Here’s a concept: join the party,run your own candidates, and change it from within instead of this constant whining to strangers on a blog? Notice I didn’t say anything negative about Berniebaby until maybe a few comments up, and that’s mostly directed at you.
I don’t care for Sanders. I hope he helps the party but I can easily see him splitting the left and allowing the far right to entrench themselves further
Baud
@bupalos: You were talking about her being silent. If Democrats actually adopted that stance (which isn’t happening), that tells me that Dems have stopped fighting for good people who have worked tirelessly for us. No reason to stay in that situation. She will never be the head of the party, so that’s a red herring on your part.
Chris
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
This.
Goku
@geg6: Because, you know women are an identity group and should take a backseat to the WWC even though they’re like 50% of the population. Also abandoning all of the groups in our coalition to chase after people who will never vote Dem. Makes perfect sense, right?
Mary G
@Baud: Yay Baud!
NR
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: If you’re talking about the Victims of Rape Health Protection Act, Nancy Pelosi voted against it too, probably for the same reasons Pete Stark talks about here:
Nice attempt at a smear though. It’s pretty sad that you guys don’t have anything better than this.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
It maybe Hilary’s weakness a politican she didn’t make peace with her enemies in the press, but that doesn’t stop me for utterly loathing those press members for letting their personal fee fees drive them to help throw the election to the biggest threat to the Republic since McCathy. The American press isn’t something that exists outside of American society.
randy khan
@NR:
I will once again point out that the only time she actually voted on the issue you’re pointing to, she voted the right way.
But there’s another point that ought to be made. The Senator from Vermont took the right positions on a lot of issues, but has demonstrated in myriad ways that many of them, particularly women’s issues, aren’t that important to him. (Exhibit A: His choice about which current Democratic candidate in House special elections he thinks is a progressive and which one he doesn’t.) Clinton demonstrated a lifelong commitment to women’s rights and specifically abortion rights in thought, word, and deed.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@EriktheRed:
I really never want to hear the word progressive again. For me it connotes purity tests, which don’t survive contact with reality. It’s a word that acts as a virtue signaler and that’s all. It’s a descriptor for basement dwelling white sis/bros who have never tried to actually accomplish something that works and lasts, like their grifting fraud of a leader and his grifting wife. Why didn’t Jane try to make Burlington College free instead of swindling the kids out of their degrees? Why doesn’t small white rural homogenous independent Vermont have single payer? Maybe because it’s hard to do and meets a lot of resistance because it turned out to be more expensive than anyone wanted to tolerate? Or maybe it’s just harder to ignore the facts and reality and blame everyone else as insufficiently progressive. I actually despise progressives, and their idiotic ideological blinders and naivete.
FlipYrWhig
Sometimes I think I’m the only person who remembers that the candidate who won the white working class portions of the Democratic primary electorate in 2008 was… Hillary Clinton. Why there’s been this notion that Bernie Sanders is just the ticket for holding not just white working class Democrats but also white working class Republicans kinda needs to reckon with the way that the last candidate with those credentials held up. Or, alternatively, they could create a self-congratulatory mythology about themselves and their own world-historical importance, kind of like their idiot hero has for half a century.
hovercraft
@D58826:
But he can say America is full of suckers, and black people live in violent hell holes and all the other insulting things he’s said about various groups, and that just fine right? I hate these people. I guess as long as no one is insulting those hard working WWC voters everything is okay, the rest of us are used to being called names so we’ll just get over ourselves.
bupalos
@Betty Cracker: I did watch. And I get that, this wasn’t her going out and trying to find a venue to defend herself or rehabilitate her own image necessarily. I just think she has to be more aware, for sure she knows this game by now and particularly how it works with her and the media. And the fact that these mitigating factors she’s baited into talking about are true- VERY TRUE, and very disturbing – doesn’t change what I think the correct answer is here. And I mean correct in terms of “how do we help the team going forward.”
Corner Stone
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: “You’re a disease, and I’m the cure.”
/Cobra
NR
@geg6:
It is objectively true, as was shown in the debate. Whether or not you want to admit it doesn’t change that fact at all.
Omnes Omnibus
@randy khan: This.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@NR: Nice try Yevgeny, but we’re talking about Bernie here and no one else. Also too you fucking shitbag:
Go hump a cardboard cutout of Putin fuckface.
Baud
@bupalos: Everyone has their own view on what helps the team, all of which are unenforceable. It’s not a point worth debating unless you believe that in-fighting helps the team.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@NR: I think you mean “white” voters. “Working class” voters didn’t skew R last year – “white” voters did.
Goku
@NR: Oh, also? Most of Trump’s voters voted out of cultural resentment, not so much economic distress. Many made good money. Working class voters that were non-white voted overwhelmingly for Clinton. Even some that did likely won’t be swayed to vote for the ” “socialist (((globalist))) fags” aka Dems and progressives
D58826
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
It’s the white women part that I don’t understand (obviously since I’m a male). The n umber of articles about sexual harassment in the work place would fill several small planets yet these women voted for an admitted adulterer, philander, and harasser. He bragged about walking unannounced into the dressing room of the Miss Teenage contest. Is this the kind of man that these woman want their daughters to be exposed to when they enter the workplace/college/etc? Is this the kind of a man that they want their sons to go up to emulate?
I can understand for any number of reasons these women voting for Bush, Rubio, Cruz, Graham, or Carly F.. But TRUMP!!!! I just wonder what kind of D messaging/outreach/platform/candidate would reach these voters.
The same way there are a number of articles reporting that only 28% of the public thinks the democrats understand the problems of the average American. And yet in the past 8 years Obama an d the democrats, w/o any help from the GOP:
1. pulled the global economy back from a total meltdown,
2. saved the banking industry (I know banks aren’t popular but try living without them and millions of middle class families depend on a paycheck from those banks),
3. saved the auto industry
4. 75 months of job growth
5. provide millions of Americans with affordable health insurance (many of them in those very same overlooked small towns and rural America)
6. a number of clear air/water regulations
7. Dodd-Frank to help prevent 2008 from happening again
8. Consumer finical protection agency (that the right name?) top protect the little guy from predator banks/credit card companies. and
9. Lilly ledbetter act to help women file suit in wage disputes.
Now there are things that Obama didn’t do, and I’m not claiming the the D’s are perfect in all that they do. But that is still a pretty impressive list of things he/D’s did do. And most, if not all helped the Average American. The Americans that claim the D’s don’t care about them
bupalos
@geg6: You’re going to need to flesh that one out for me a little.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@D58826:
White before Black Men before Women.
Goku
@D58826:
I think the way these questions are worded and how much Republicans/other ideologies are distorting this perception
NR
@randy khan:
Sure. I don’t deny that.
And so has Bernie Sanders, as is reflected in the fact that he’s gotten 100% ratings from Planned Parenthood and NARAL since 1996.
Turgidson
@manfrommadras:
You’re saying we are refusing to “figure out what went wrong.” Well, in the opinions of many of us, easily the two biggest things that went wrong were the fucking media’s nonstop humping of BUT-HER-EMAILS to the exclusion of damn near everything else (certainly almost everything else Hillary was trying to communicate to the voters), and James fucking Comey, with assists from “Wilmer”, who came to believe he was going to win, but only long AFTER he was basically finished in the delegate race, and decided to go kamikaze on HRC late in the primary and then sit and sulk for what felt like years after the primaries ended.
But here you go.
No campaign is perfect. Obama’s two campaigns came about as close as it gets, but in 2008 he had “likeable enough” and “cling to guns”, in 2012 he had the first debate fiasco, and, ironically, in 2008 he was the one who couldn’t reach the sainted WWC voters in the Rust Belt. HRC’s 2016 campaign was an exponential improvement over her leaking, backbiting, Mark Penn-ing 2008 campaign. Almost no leaks or drama became public, even when things were getting dicey. They had a plan to hold the blue wall and expand to other gettable states, and stuck to it. Everyone believed until the day after election day that they had a state of the art ground game (including Obama vets who know a thing or two about that).
In the end, she lost, but I’m sick and tired of the armchair quarterback bullshit about how OF COURSE she ran an AWFUL campaign. No, she didn’t. That said, here are a few mistakes.
1) “Basket of deplorables.” I certainly had no problem with that phrase and think it was true and justified, but it was a stupid thing to say if you’re trying to win an election where you need a majority, not just “all thinking people”, to paraphrase Adlai Stevenson.
2) Focusing on Arizona, if it was to the exclusion of the Upper Midwest. As I noted above re Wisconsin, this is a 20/20 hindsight thing, as I am not sure there was a single poll showing her losing in any of the 3 decisive Rust Belt states she barely lost, and most of them had her up well outside the margin of error. But ultimately, if she’s winning Arizona, the Upper Midwest is probably already in the bag – best to put in some early work on the ground game to make sure the votes you need will come out in those states first. I think it’s irrefutable that Comey swung it, but a little more investment in WI, and PA might have averted it given how close the margins were.
3) Her positions on trade. I personally think many of the politicians who flatly oppose TPP or NAFTA are being preening douchebags who don’t really know what they’re talking about but know they’ll get a Pavlovian response from certain voters. HRC tried to have it both ways and pleased no one. She should have either made the case for trade without hesitation and stuck to it, or gone full preening douchebag early and not looked back.
4) I think she could have made a more insistent case that Hair Furor was bullshitting the WWC voting bloc about bringing the coal industry back, etc. and that his policies would inevitably be a bonanza for the rich, and she was the one offering policies that would redound to their benefit, not him. She wasn’t wrong to make the case that he was unfit for the office, but we know now that it wasn’t enough on its own.
But by and large, my opinion is that the easily identifiable mistakes her campaign made were on the mild side and far less damaging to her candidacy than the media’s abominable coverage of the campaign and James fucking Comey.
D58826
@Turgidson:
Of course it’s her fault. She failed to eliminate a few of the most obnoxious pundits using her death squads. If she had done that they would have gotten the message and sung the Hillary virtues to the heavens./ (yes SNARK)
Technocrat
@bupalos:
Maybe I can help.
Say one party is trying but failing to meet your economic needs, and the other hates your very existence. How free do you feel to switch now?
Goku
@D58826: It also helps that Dems aren’t fascists who have demonstrably shitty policies
NR
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
Um, no, we’re not. You might be so obsessed with Bernie that you only want to talk about him, but not everyone feels the same way, so that’s really your problem.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
…. yet he goes out of his way to shit talk “identity politics” and sneers at the Ossoff Congressional campaign, to campaign for a forced birther MAYORAL candidate in Omaha, because nothing says I support the Resistance agenda – 85% of which is fueled by women and their organizing – quite like supporting a forced birther running for mayor in Omaha. PROGRESSIVE!
NR
@Goku: Define “most of.” 80%? 90%?
Because if we can swing even 10% of Trump’s voters to the Democrats, that’s a victory at least on the level of Obama’s 2008 win.
Goku
@NR: Way to distort their point. But I guess that’s the purpose of your coming here. I notice you didn’t respond to my advice up above
Baud
@Turgidson: The basket of deplorables controversy was a media creation.
Goku
@NR: They don’t even have to be swung. Just demoralize them so they don’t even show up. Not ideal, but it’s the world we live in
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: If Mello is a “forced birther,” so is Hillary Clinton, because they both supported a restriction on abortion. Can’t have it both ways, bud.
Chris
@Goku:
As Kay has pointed out more than once, the economy is going freaking great in her little corner of the Rust Belt, and whatever’s driving Trump voters has very little to do with whether the Corrupt Neoliberal Corporate Dems did enough for their jobs and well being.
Bostondreams
@manfrommadras:
So do tell. Who would have been a stronger candidate, besides Biden. Because it certainly wasn’t one note Sanders.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
YOU want to make everything about that fraud, every thread. Not one single other subject draws you here. You’re a fraud and so is Wilmer who pulls his sack cloth and ashes purity progressive bullshit behind Jane’s grifting for the benefit of both of them, because they both know you and the other little cultists eat all of his bullshit up with a spoon. WHERE ARE THEIR TAXES?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
Clinton tried to force an ultrasound bill? Can you point me to that? While you’re at it, can you explain why Mello is helpful to the Resistance?
NR
@Goku: Well when it comes to demoralizing, only Trump himself can do that. Which he may yet do, we’ll see.
But they are winnable by Democrats. We’ve won them before.
Goku
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I’ve tried to give him friendly advice:
All he seems to like to do is argue about stupid shit here
Corner Stone
@Baud:
It was a spot on description and anyone who embraced it like a cloak to wrap around themselves were never, ever, ever going to vote for HRC or any D.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: There are more possible restrictions on abortions than mandating doctors offer ultrasounds (with no requirement for women to accept them). Clinton supported one of them.
les
@D58826:
We really should attend to this before the next elections. By “few,” I assume you mean “most.”
Technocrat
@Turgidson:
Not to mention the meddling of a nation-state, and abysmal polling failures in PA. IIRC, the dominant narrative for much of the election was that she was running a stellar campaign. I’m at a loss to recall any “Hillary is blowing this” narratives.
Baud
@Corner Stone: Agree. The actual speech was highly empathetic to voters who were attracted to Trump’s message. Complete distortion.
Chris
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Kind of the crux of the problem, and one of the main reasons why I’ve gone from being indifferent-leaning-Hillary-by-a-hair to loathing the Berniebro community with a passion:
No one, in the “Hillbot” wing of the party, is throwing the working class under the bus by saying “we need to stop focusing on class issues so much.”
Lots of people, in the “Berniebro” wing of the party, are throwing women and nonwhites under the bus by saying “we need to stop focusing on identity politics so much.” And crucially, the biggest one of them is the ex-candidate himself.
bupalos
@Baud: I don’t believe in-fighting helps the team, but I do think there’s really some group think and gang-tackling over past events that goes on here that’s just counter-productive. You don’t stop in-fighting by purifying the ranks, you just set up civil war. People should be able to talk about the potential effectiveness or ineffectiveness of our standard-bearers going forward without the assumption of bad-faith. There are sexist know-it-all dudebro gamergaters among the Berners. There are half-Republican corporate stepford wives and influence peddlers among the Clintonistas. But these extremes don’t define anything meaningful, they’re just avenues to division for division’s sake.
Technocrat
@Corner Stone:
I know people who still call themselves Bitter Clingers.
Goku
@NR: I think there’s a decent chance some of them will be won again. In a fair election, which remains to be seen. It was a perfect storm of shit last election. Russian interference, media bullshit, Comey, voter suppression, voter stupity, and yes, Clinton herself, made some mistakes. Also 25 years of RW attacks or her having a vagina didn’t help her either in this sexist country
NR
@geg6:
I think his 100% ratings from Planned Parenthood and NARAL answer that question.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
We’re talking about your progressive hero who you laud at every opportunity. Why did Wilmer go out of his way to support this guy? Why piss on Ossoff the day of the election, then champion Mello? Why shit talk Obama? Wilmer is a vengeful, spiteful fraud and a small small man with a cult of idiots, and you’re constant deflection means that you can’t defend him, because what he does is indefensible to anyone not in his cult.
Baud
@bupalos: Such a debate is fine if it’s based on substance. If Clinton had actually said something substantive that was wrong, like that Trump should nuke NK, then criticism is fine. Having her go into hiding because other people have a derangement syndrome every time they see her is an unreasonable ask.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@NR: Hillary Clinton also got 100% from Planned Parenthood and NARAL, nice try Dmitry.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
No. We’re talking about Sanders’s and Clinton’s positions on abortion. I understand that you harbor an intense, irrational hatred of Bernie Sanders and want to make everything all about him, but that’s not what this conversation is about.
bupalos
@Technocrat: I still don’t get it. I’m not talking about switching parties, like to Republican. That’s fucking gross. I’m responding to someone who is saying they’ll leave the party if Hillz is “forced out” by saying I’m not leaving the party as long as it’s basic philosophical thrust didn’t change. The defense of ethnic and economic minorities would be absolutely fundamental to that.
Corner Stone
@Goku:
Wait…WHAT?! … She had a vagina?! And I…*voted*…for that…person?!
***SHUTTERS***
Goku
@NR: You’re also good at omitting pieces of someone’s comments
Baud
@bupalos: How can we trust a party to defend ethnic or economic minorities if it runs away from defending good people like Hillary who have been the subject of unfair and viscous attacks?
NR
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: That’s great. It’s in no way relevant to my point that Sanders’s record backs up his position on abortion, but it’s good all the same.
But anyway, I thought we were only talking about Bernie Sanders? Yet now you’re bringing up Hillary Clinton. Interesting.
NR
@Goku: I only quote the relevant portions of comments to conserve space. This is a common practice.
What part of the comment I replied to did I leave out that would have warranted a different response?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
WHERE ARE HIS AND JANE’S TAX RETURNS? If you’re going to ignore my questions, I’m going to ask a different question.
Goku
@NR: Pretty much this:
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: You just proved my point for me. Thank you.
Technocrat
@bupalos:
In our current political context, “leave the party” would mean what? What party prioritizes the defense of economic AND ethnic minorities more than Democrats? That’s almost the definition of what separates us from any other party.
I think the point geg6 may have been making is that, as a white male, you have your pick of parties that support whatever economic theories you favor, since defense of your ethnicity is a given in ANY party. That isn’t the case if you’re black or trans or female. quote-unquote identity politics is core to Democrats, and only Democrats. Well, I guess it’s core to Republicans too, but in the opposite direction.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
Go away little cultist with no answers.
Goku
@NR: Its a valid question. Especially since Sanders is having such a big role in the party’s outreach now. What’s he trying to hide?
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@NR:
NR
@Goku: And the only part of that comment that’s relevant to the abortion issue is the part about Mello, which I already answered.
Goku
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: PP is obviously the establishment now is the enemy of the (white) working class
TenguPhule
@Baud: He already did in Goldfinger.
NR
@Goku: No it’s not. It’s an irrelevant attempt at a bullshit smear from people who desperately don’t want to talk about real issues.
bupalos
@Baud: I think it was substantively wrong in the political sense and am trying to raise that issue.
This feels a lot to me (in a smaller way) like the basket of deplorables. It’s both true, and just kind of fundamental political malpractice. I just honestly don’t see how it can help. Also saying she supported Trumps strike of Syria, leading with the basic agreement instead of the ways she goes on to intimate it was probably botched. Sure, maybe true, but I really don’t get how that helps and I think it really can hurt.
It could be that she’s going for a role that isn’t open to her yet, that she thinks there’s enough distance to where she can now be a commentator instead of a politician.
FlipYrWhig
@Goku: I like how Sanders goes out of his way to say that the Democratic Party needs to have a big tent on issues like abortion, but simultaneously contends that if you think the minimum wage in some places should be allowed to be $12 instead of $15, well, in that case, you’re a craven establishmentarian and dastardly betrayer of every progressive ideal of the past 150 years. Fuck Mullah Bernard, he’s a small mind with small, dim followers.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: So, no comment on the fact that Bernie Sanders had a better position on abortion than Hillary Clinton? Noted.
geg6
@bupalos:
Well, of course I do. Because you are a white man. 99.9% of politicians look like you. Same with the media. You never have had to wonder if someone who looks like you will ever be considered equal or even good enough to run the country. You don’t have to think about whether your voice is too shrill to be taken seriously or if wearing a pantsuit will mean you will be held up to ridicule. Just as I never question why black people are fiercely protective of the Obamas, maybe you might consider that women might have the same feelings about Hillary. That we see ourselves and the crap we’ve put up with all our lives in what happened and still is happening with her. Things you will never experience, never see and never understand. You don’t need heroes; you never have to question whether you are a full citizen of this country. You never have reason to. Jesus. I can’t believe I have to explain this to a self-proclaimed liberal in 2016.
Goku
@NR: Shouldn’t all politicians release their tax information? Isn’t Sanders for transparency? Walk the talk, man
wjs
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: You’d think a good socialist would know how to wave around the papers of the state and show everyone how “common” they are and how much they pay into the corrupt system of stealing the bread of the peasants.
Seriously, though–Bernie ought to tell Jane to find their joint tax returns and release them. Otherwise, they can go pound sand and take their grift elsewhere.
Hoodie
This thread should be about dead, but would it be possible that we could have a nuanced view of HRC that isn’t knee-jerk defensiveness or Berniebot idiocy? She is highly qualified, admirable person and likely would have been a very competent president. And, more than likely, Comey, Wikileaks and voter suppression did swing what was a razor’s edge election. That said, she was a candidate that the GOP could easily take pot shots at and a figure that a large portion of the general public had been conditioned to hate and helped Trump to energize voters that otherwise might have stayed home. Most of that was the conscious work of the right wing playing on the stupidity and vanity of the media, but that was something she and the party leadership must have been aware of before she decided she wanted to run. Moreover, with voter suppression in the hands of GOP legislatures, you can’t afford to give away any points.
If anyone is at fault, it is the lack of strategic thinking on the part of the Democratic leadership, including Hillary. It’s all about timing. Hillary missed her best chance in 2008, where her image would not have been as much of an issue because Bush was an unmitigated disaster. Unfortunately for her, she ran into a once-in-a-generation political talent. No reason to try to make up for that loss by running in a year in which you weren’t the right formula. It sucks for her and certainly isn’t fair, but that’s the breaks. Running a relatively unknown fresh face would have been a better strategy against a bitter demagogue like Trump, kind of like Macron is to Le Pen in France. I don’t know who that could have been, but Clinton kind of closed the field to anyone other than an anti-establishment challenger, e.g., Bernie. Several good potential candidates (e.g., Gillibrand, Warren, etc.) fell in step behind Hillary because it was Hillary’s turn and, to their credit, they are all loyal. Frankly, that’s how Republicans lose elections (see Romney, McCain, Dole, etc.). The presidency is too important to treat it like a seniority system or a lifetime achievement award.
bupalos
@Baud: I mean, let’s defend her all day long, I guess part of my point is the rest of the party needs to be out there making these statements, not her, because then it comes of as an excuse.
I’m also specifically saying she can be effective coming after Trump, with a little discipline and realizing where she still has a lot of cred on basic competence and that’s where she should go.
geg6
@NR:
Sad that they didn’t endorse him then. Stupid women, huh?
FlipYrWhig
@geg6: Hey now, some white male politicians have stupid messy hair and grating regionally-identified voices, which is a _kind_ of diversity. Then again, their friends and followers think it makes them “authentic.” Can you IMAGINE what the media would do to a female politician with an unkempt appearance? That’s the part of the shtick that annoys me more than anything. It’s so done to death. “Look at me, I’m not playing by The Man’s rules, I’m not modulating my voice OR combing my hair!” It’s like that professor who wears only Hawaiian shirts because ties are for The Establishment, maaaan.
Goku
@Hoodie: I mean who else was there? She was honestly the best the Dems had. Martin O’Malley? Get out of here
Baud
@bupalos: We disagree. I thought she was great today.
FlipYrWhig
@Hoodie: One of these days your arguments about which candidate is preferred which year maybe could be put to the test with some sort of election that, hear me out, comes _before_ the general election, staggered by state and region. Come to think of it, why didn’t they do that this time? You’d think it would have been in the news.
Patricia Kayden
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: But non-Whites are “identity politics”. Shame on you for not knowing that. Just ask the Bernie Bros here such as manfrommadras.
FlipYrWhig
@Goku: Who exactly is supposed to say, “Ya know, I realize that you got half the vote in the last primary, are well-respected and paid your dues with the party, built up a following and have universal name recognition, but the problem is that you’re so likely to win that it’s just not fair. We want you to step aside because maybe an unknown will emerge and excite everyone. Or maybe he or she won’t and we’ll lose, but the important thing is that we have a meta-argument about projecting the future. Whaddya say?”
bupalos
@geg6: @geg6: My god are you ever assuming and insulting. Yeah, I guarantee I’m never going to know how it is to be you. good luck with that act.
NR
@geg6:
I don’t know why you would say that. It’s up to them who to endorse.
But the fact remains that they gave him 100% ratings, which exposes your “But Bernie hasn’t DONE anything to support abortion rights!” whine as the hollow bullshit it is.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@wjs:
Not just the joint tax returns, the FEC personal financial disclosures they avoided filing by getting two extensions, then dropped out right before the filing deadline. Campaign millions disappeared into Jane and Tad’s Old Towne Media, and we’re supposed to believe Jane about how they bought their third house with cash? Wilmer and Trump are the same kind of spiteful con men, leading the left and right branches of the white male supremacist anti-Hillary anti-Obama cult, and feeding them weekly hate nuggets like mother birds feed their babies. Our Revolution is a grifter’s honey pot.
Goku
@wjs: He won’t because some of his followers will think he’s a sellout fraud for being somewhat wealthy
Frankensteinbeck
@NR:
I’ll do it. Hillary said she believes there should be regulations about late term abortions. This is non-controversial. Pro-choice activists generally think that, too. Anybody who thinks there should be no restrictions on abortions, period, is part of a tiny fringe. Especially late term, where we’re not talking about a bean, but a fetus potentially able to survive out of the womb. This is wildly different from forced birth policies.
FlipYrWhig
@Frankensteinbeck: My reading of the quotation when NR was last shopping it around was that Clinton was saying something more like that she _acknowledged_ there would be restrictions rather than that she _in a vacuum_ would _advocate_ that there be restrictions. “Support” is a complicated word that falls in between I Would Like This and I Accept This. See also how Obama said that if he were starting over he’d want something like single-payer but given current circumstances it ain’t happening and we’ll have to do something else.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
You’d think that the politician and his followers who lost an election to the most horrible campaigner, not authentic, corporate sellout, evil murdering hag, would pause for a little self reflection and try to figure out where they went wrong. Nope.
Goku
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Evil Establishment cheated them
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
Black women rejected Wilmer, then Trump by around 85%. Note all the stories in the NYT about those voters thoughts about Hillary and the election.
FlipYrWhig
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: The most they’ll ever admit is that maybe they _themselves_ erred in not being worthy of such a pure and holy man, really too good for this world, when you think about it.
Goku
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Who gives a shit what uppity darkies think, amirite?
/MSM
Hoodie
@FlipYrWhig: the problem with this is she already lost before – when she was heavily favored to win- for some of the same reasons.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Goku:
The base of the Democratic party is black women/minority women and men, but because “those people” didn’t center white bro demands when demanded, it had to be torn down.
NR
@Frankensteinbeck:
Really? Source on that? I know a majority of Americans oppose late-term abortion, but I don’t know if you can call it “non-controversial.”
And I don’t think a law requiring doctors to offer ultrasounds, which women are under no obligation to accept (which is what Mello’s law did) falls into that category either.
Brachiator
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
And so? You have made a statement about Demographics. What Political judgements should we make?
Frankensteinbeck
@NR:
Sorry? Where did you show she opposes late term abortions? I only saw a quote about regulations on it. That’s like saying someone opposes cars, because they think there should be regulations.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Traditionally, the base of the Democratic party has been working-class people of ALL races.
Except during the 2016 campaign, Chuck Schumer openly said that they didn’t need the traditional white working class part of the Democratic base because they were going to win the votes of affluent moderate Republicans in the suburbs.
How well did that work out?
Goku
@Brachiator: You never answered this:
If you’ve got nothing hide. Seriously
?BillinGlendaleCA
@NR:
Sez the commenter who only shows up when the name of St. Bernard is mentioned.
Goku
@NR:
Vast majority of Americans don’t even know who he is.
NR
@Frankensteinbeck: From the article I linked earlier:
“Regulation” in this case means a ban on late-term abortion with the exceptions she noted.
Goku
@NR:
NR
@Goku: That’s not the point. The point is that this was one of the top leaders of the Democratic party talking about their approach to the campaign.
Frankensteinbeck
@NR:
Only in your imagination, it does.
NR
@Frankensteinbeck: What else could it possibly mean in this context?
Frankensteinbeck
@NR:
Regulations. Like, ‘check the viability of the fetus.’ Late-term abortions, which are VERY rare, are not at all like the rest of abortion regulation situations. Extrapolating what she said to supporting a blanket ban with only those limited exceptions is silly.
Goku
@NR: Honestly, the same people you’re talking about, the sainted WWC, can be purged for all I care about them. They’re too stupid to live in a free society
NR
@Frankensteinbeck: I think you’re really stretching. But regardless, even if we go with your interpretation, that position is still more restrictive than Bernie Sanders’s, who said that abortion is a choice between a woman and her doctor and the government should stay out of it completely.
NR
@Goku: All I can say is good luck with that attitude in a country where the people you’re talking about make up the majority (or very close to it) in the states you need to win.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Goku: My feelings w/r/t Clinton are about the same as Turgidson, and I voted for her in the primary, but O’Malley probably would’ve been the best alternative candidate (in terms of ability, chances of winning, and minor ramifications of a potential defeat).
Goku
@NR: Again, perfect storm of an election that will likely never be able to replicated again. Trump got lucky and his support will collapse in time. I see very little changing his approval ratings. Syrian missile strike barely moved his approval. He will be destroyed
amk
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Exactly. The ‘economically anxious’ over 50k earning white folks wrought this racist corrupt pos against the entire world. They can shove their ‘opinions’ about Hillary up their collective racist lil asses.
NR
@Goku: Except we’re not just talking about a fluke perfect storm of an election. The Democratic party has completely collapsed all across the country save for the Northeast and the West Coast. The problem is far bigger than just the 2016 White House race. Which is why even a complete Trump collapse won’t solve it.
mapaghimagsik
@Goku: kind of like a certain Cheeto Dust Disaster.
Goku
@NR: I disagree. I think Trump’s outrages are going to mobilize people on the ground to get involved in politics. This has been observed on this blog and elsewhere many times
geg6
@bupalos:
I’m assuming and insulting. Right. This from the guy who says Hillary should never show her face again. Fuck off, asshole. No, you will never know what it’s like to be someone for whom you have no empathy. And this, right here folks, is male privilege in a nutshell.
NR
@Goku: If so, then that’s great.
But voting Trump out is only the first step. If the Democratic party is going to recover, it needs to pursue policies that put working Americans first. I hope they will do that – but we will see.
geg6
@NR:
Which is exactly what Roe v Wade says. It is non-controversial.
geg6
@NR:
I’m a working American and I consider the Democratic Party’s policies ones that do put me, people like me and people with less than me first. You really mean white, mostly male working class but you’re too cowardly to say so.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
I realize that the idea of forcing unnecessary medical procedures on women gives you a woody just like it does Mello, but it doesn’t make Hillary “pro-life” no matter how many times you expose your ignorance about Roe v Wade.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@geg6:
If NR doesn’t tell us what is and isn’t sexist how will we know? I’m just a woman who had a legal abortion and then two daughters, and NR is trying to shame me into not sniffing Wilmer’s crusty old man jock like he does. Hard.Pass.
BCHS Class of 1980
@manfrommadras: I know that I may very well be feeding the trolls, but it seems that when mentioning MI and WI, nobody ever mentions PA? One accusation that cannot be made is that the campaign ignored PA.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Bernie’s current position is that forcing vaginal ultrasounds on women who want an abortion is A-OK.
His past position is now irrelevant thanks to his own political choices.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
Mello’s law didn’t force a medical procedure on anyone. I pointed this out to you before, so the fact that you’re still repeating this claim means you are deliberately lying about it. Is there no low you won’t sink to to smear people you don’t like?
amk
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Are you sure that jock isn’t putin’s? High time the fp’ers stopped being trolled by this russian pos troll.
Mnemosyne
@Frankensteinbeck:
Pro tip: NR doesn’t understand Roe v Wade. Seriously, he is that dumb.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
Except it’s not, your lies on the subject notwithstanding.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
From your link:
Heath Mello cosponsored a law meant to shame women into not getting an abortion.
That’s what the law is meant to do.
And the fact that you deny this fact and pretend it was “optional” and oh golly gee no woman is going to feel pressured to do this just because a doctor tells her it’s state law! makes you as big a piece of shit as he is.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@amk:
NR and a few other of the regular Wilmer deadenders who comment here are on the spectrum. They’re stuck. That’s how so many Birdie dolls were sold and how Jane took her family and friends to Rome on a private jet with lobster sliders.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
That is from the very text you quoted above.
So which is it? Are you so utterly, mind-bogglingly stupid that you don’t know what it means when something is not mandated, or are you a deliberate liar claiming that the law forced women into an ultrasound when it did no such thing?
Because it has to be one or the other.
NR
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: You’re a lot more obsessed with Bernie Sanders than I am. Just FYI.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Are you so mind-bogglingly stupid that you actually think that women in that situation wouldn’t be pressured into allowing a completely unnecessary medical procedure?
geg6
@NR:
Mello also voted for a 20 week abortion ban and to disallow health insurance coverage for abortion. But Bernie tells me he’s the REAL progressive. Which explains why I despise anyone who calls him/herself progressive.
NR
@Mnemosyne: If a doctor is going to pressure a woman into an unnecessary procedure, they are going to do that with or without that particular law.
Regardless, your suppositions about what unethical doctors might or might not do has no bearing on the fact that the law did not require women to get ultrasounds. So stop lying and saying it did.
Paula
@geg6:
Yep. The crap that’s been thrown at her for so long just enrages me.
Paula
@FlipYrWhig: Exactly.
Paula
@FlipYrWhig: Precisely.
petesh
Dead thread, but instructive. I don’t really care who is being paid (presumably by Putin, presumably indirectly), who is just trolling for fun, and who is flat-out d-u-m-b. But these “defenses” of Bernie and “concerns” about Hillary are … mind-bogglingly idiotic.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Wow. You really are as clueless as I always thought.
Let’s face facts: Bernie talked a good game for years and postured about being to the left of Hillary on abortion, but when it came down to decision time, what did he do? He decided that women’s health just isn’t that important to him.
When Bernie had a chance to make an actual stand for women’s health with one of his actions, he instead doubled down on being wrong, and got whiny when he was called on it.
NR
@Mnemosyne: You know, when presented with proof that they were wrong about something, an honest and rational person would admit they were wrong and apologize to anyone they might have misled with their incorrect information.
But you are neither honest nor rational, and so when presented with proof that you are wrong about Mello’s law, you first deny the facts. Then you insist that because you feel that most doctors are unethical people who will pressure patients into unnecessary procedures, that is exactly the same thing as the law requiring those procedures. Then you insult the person who proved you wrong and duck out of discussing the point so you can go back to what you really want to talk about – in this case, how much you hate Bernie Sanders.
You’re honestly pathetic. Your dishonesty and imperviousness to reality would make you right at home with Donald Trump.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
You can rules lawyer this all you want, but Bernie got caught supporting a forced birther who co-sponsored an unconstitutional 20-week abortion ban. Oh, and he lied about Planned Parenthood of Nebraska supporting him — whoops!
Like I said: when Bernie had a chance to take a stand for women, he threw his lot in with the white dudebro like he always does, and always will. That’s why you love him — because you know he’ll always throw everyone else under the bus in favor of the white dudebros like yourself.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
Only in your head could pointing out that you lied about Mello’s law forcing ultrasounds on women when it did nothing of the sort be considered “rules lawyering.”
Hatred for Bernie Sanders is a powerful drug, it seems–it can make words mean the exact opposite of what they actually mean.
You are a liar, you were caught in your lies, and now you’re pretending that they never happened. Like I said, you’re pathetic.
You and Donald Trump–two peas in a pod.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Read my link at 376. Not only did Mello absolutely do something “of the sort,” he did worse with multiple pieces of anti-abortion legislation, and then he lied about having Planned Parenthood of Nebraska’s support.
And Bernie hand-picked him to support. Whatta guy.
randy khan
@manfrommadras:
Dude? Really?
Pretty much all of the reporting – even the reporting that argues that they should have put more resources into the Rust Belt states – says that the campaign’s analytics for Wisconsin, etc., changed in the last week when the polling swung, at which point they moved resources there. Also, the campaign devoted tons of resources to Pennsylvania and some to Michigan, with the same results (which, as an aside, is fairly powerful inferential evidence for what I’ll call the Comey theory). There are arguments about what the campaign might have done differently, but the likely effects are pretty small compared to Comey’s impact. Sure, they could have pushed Clinton over the top, but in every close election there are a million choices – on both sides – that affect the final result.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
Except, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, he didn’t. And yet you continue to lie about it.
And here you are lying again. Nowhere in the article you linked does Mello state that Planned Parenthood of Nebraska supported him. He said that he supported them, voting with them 100% of the time in his most recent term in the legislature. Planned Parenthood responded that he voted against them in 2011–which is not the most recent term in the legislature. And it was David Nir on Daily Kos who said that he had a 100% rating from Planned Parenthood, not Mello himself. So once again, you are posting complete fabrications.
I’m curious–do you ever feel even a little bit guilty about all the lying you do? Or is it all justified in your head because you hate Bernie Sanders so much that anything that might possibly hurt him is okay, no matter how wrong or immoral it might be?
Is there anywhere you draw the line?
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Do you feel even a little bit guilty supporting a guy who wants to ban abortion after 20 weeks just so you can say you’re part of Our Revolution?
That’s true, by the way. Go re-check the article. You’re so in thrall to Bernie that you can’t even admit when he’s made a mistake, can you?
Omnes Omnibus
@NR: Simple question: Can you point out any concrete actions on women’s rights by Sanders? As you should well know, there are pages that could be filled with what HRC has done. There is a reason the female base of the party chose her.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@NR:
NR
@Mnemosyne: Actually, I don’t support Mello. I haven’t given him any money, and I don’t live in Omaha so I can’t vote for or against him.
But anyway, you’re ducking my questions and you still won’t admit to nor apologize for your lies, so there’s no point in talking to you. I’d have better luck trying to reason with a squirrel. Or Donald Trump.
All I can say is I feel sorry for anyone who listens to anything you say. I certainly won’t be making that mistake.
NR
@Omnes Omnibus: Here is a whole page full of concrete actions he’s taken on women’s rights.
NR
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Well considering that it isn’t a Bernie supporter who’s claiming that “not forced” actually means “forced,” I don’t see any basis for your edit.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@NR: You must be young.
P.S. I’ve met Mnemosyne, she seems pretty truthful.
Omnes Omnibus
@NR: My bad. Actions other than votes? Work on anything? Sponsoring anything? Don’t try to pretend that Sanders is better than Clinton on women’s issues. It will really expose you as a fraud.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Bernie does. Which is, in fact, the whole point here. You’re defending Bernie’s endorsement of Mello by coming up with increasingly narrow defenses of Mello’s anti-abortion record.
Are you still comfortable with Bernie endorsing Mello, or do you think it’s a mistake? So far, you’re defending Bernie’s endorsement to the death.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: I think NR’s shift may be over.
NR
@Omnes Omnibus: You didn’t look at the page, did you?
There’s more on the page. Take a look. Some of those same bills were also sponsored by Hillary Clinton, by the way.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Uh-uh. If you want to have a fact-based discussion, it has to start with you acknowledging facts. Admit that you lied and apologize for it. If you’re not willing to do that, as I said, there’s no point talking to you.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@NR: What actions?
He hasn’t written a single bill. And every bill he co-sponsored died in committee, without even making to the floor for a vote.
Total Loser.
Sad!
NR
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: I love it.
“Bernie Sanders talks a good game, but he hasn’t actually done anything to support women’s rights.”
Gives link to page detailing many things Bernie Sanders has done to support women’s rights.
“Congressional votes don’t count!”
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Hey, you’re the one making excuses for Bernie supporting a forced birther like Mello, not me.
And, again, if you actually think that a state-mandated “voluntary” ultrasound is in fact voluntary, you’ve lived a very sheltered life.
NR
@Mnemosyne: You’re still doubling down on your lies about the ultrasounds. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.
And yes, the ultrasounds were voluntary. Oh, but I forgot–Bernie Sanders is involved, so words mean the opposite of what they actually mean. “Voluntary” means “not voluntary.” Right. Carry on.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@NR: he gets paid to vote. a job that made him a millionaire.
all he has to do is stumble down the senate isle and utter a one syllable word (yay or nay) after the floor manager tells him how to grunt.
He’s toooo lazy and incompetent to write a bill, get co-sponsors, get it through committee, get it passed in both chambers, get the executive branch to sign off, and pass judicial muster.
Total Disaster!
FlipYrWhig
@NR: She’s saying she favors THOSE EXCEPTIONS, you insufferable douchenozzle.
NR
@FlipYrWhig: Except she said she favored both the regulation AND the exceptions.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
It’s really easy for a do-nothing, rich, straight, white male to throw women and gays under the bus.
Sad!
FlipYrWhig
@NR: You enjoy misreading and mischaracterizing. It’s kind of your thing. Try, ya know, not. It’d be a nice change of pace.
NR
@FlipYrWhig: “I have been on record in favor of a late-pregnancy regulation that would have exceptions for the life and health of the mother” is a pretty clear statement. But, you do you.
Manfrommadras
its quite simple. She was running for an election using a paint by numbers playbook. There was no overarching message – even if Trump was a piece of crap, which he is – he had a clearer simpler message. She could not craft a selling point strong enough for voters who were undecided, to come home to her. It’s a known fact that she ignored blue-collar, lower income white voters in the rust belt, while trump spent millions catering to their fears and biases. It was negative, it was racist, but it worked. We can all intellectually masturbate to our heart’s content on this blog, but Trump is in power, he appointed the SC justice, while she’s out there still searching for a coherent reason for why we lost. And to all those on this thread who can only insult instead of offering a reasoned, unemotional , rational, response, I have two words for you whiners – shut the fuck up!
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Sanders’ violent sick fantasies reveals he’s disturbed and views women to be subservient.
Redleg
@Manfrommadras
Bullshit. I watched a good number of Hillary speeches and debate performances. Her campaign’s message was “forward together” and that resonated with a great number of Democrats. The media, GOP, and Trump made it about her fucking e-mails, Benghazi, the Clinton Foundation, her “dishonesty,” etc. and so her message was drowned out. Hillary did have faults and carried a lot of baggage, much of it undeserved.
The problem was that people and the press largely ignored Trump’s baggage and his long record of business fuckups, fraud, and corruption and focused on the “vagina grabbing” comment instead of the real meat of Trump’s unfitness to be president. Sure Trump’s message was simple and apparently inspirational to many of the rubes who voted for him.
Hillary didn’t run a great campaign nor did she run an awful campaign and she doesn’t deserve all the blame for not getting elected. She did, after all, win the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes and made Trump look like an deranged stalker during the debates.
lol chikinburd
My only engagement with this thread has been to open the page and immediately scroll to the bottom, and that was a waste of time.