Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Not all heroes wear capes.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

Infrastructure week. at last.

A last alliance of elves and men. also pet photos.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

Everybody saw this coming.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Bark louder, little dog.

The willow is too close to the house.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

“Squeaker” McCarthy

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Excellent Links / HRClinton — Can’t Win for Losing

HRClinton — Can’t Win for Losing

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Dan Drezner, in the Washington Post:

… [W]henever this topic comes up, I feel like gouging my eyes out with a dull spoon there’s a key point that always goes unacknowledged: from the outset of the general election campaign, Clinton faced a more difficult challenge than is commonly understood.

As I pointed out last year and as the April 2017 issue of PS: Political Science & Politics notes, the fundamentals of the 2016 campaign had the race as pretty close to a toss-up. Economic growth in the first half of 2016 was pretty weak. The incumbent party was trying to win a third consecutive presidential campaign. Both of these facts meant that, despite Obama’s personal popularity, the fundamentals of the campaign were far from a Democratic cake-walk…

To be fair, the tightness of the fundamental race heightens the magnitude of each mistake made by Clinton and her campaign. But I think the general election polling numbers mistakenly gave the impression that Clinton’s victory was inexorable when the reality was more murky. Despite Obama’s personal popularity, the simple fact is that the same party has won three consecutive presidential elections only once since 1952. In 2000, Al Gore was running on a stronger economy and still barely eked out a victory in the popular vote. Clinton faced a more difficult path…

Reader Interactions

225Comments

  2. 2.

    FlyingToaster

    @Goku: If you say its name three times, it’ll disappear into the ether :)

    Edited to kill random punctuation

  3. 3.

    Eljai

    Dave Weigel wrote a good piece on how liberals are still furious at how the campaign was covered and gives an excellent example from the interview with Christiane Amanpour.

    In a riff on how to create jobs, Clinton made the fairly ordinary point that “if you don’t have access to high-speed affordable broadband, which large parts of America do not,” large employers will overlook your town.

    As Weigel points out in the article, Hillary campaigned on a quarter-trillion-dollar infrastructure plan which included a plan for increased broadband access.

    Yet somehow this very salient point led to an afternoon of Twitter mockery by mostly male reporters. For example, Phil Elliott of Time magazine tweeted “’You cannot get cell coverage for mile’, Clinton says of the places that voted against her.”

    It’s like no matter what she says, the press turns it into something bad. They really are dicks.

  8. 8.

    bago

    You take money from GS for doing work… scandal.
    You hire half of the fucking GD board of directors to steer the federal moneyhose? Perfectly normal.

  9. 9.

    Goku

    @Eljai: The kicker is that these reporters face no real consequences for this kind of shit, or the bs coverage. They’re hacks. I like a free press as much as the next person, but come on, this is stupid. Its obviously not what she meant.They’ll never lose their cushy bullshit jobs.
    To think I considered becoming a journalist…

  14. 14.

    Elizabelle

    Jeff Zeleny can suck it.

    Now with CNN, he’s from Fuck the Fucking Fascist-Enabling New York Times, where Clinton Derangement Syndrome is mother’s milk.

  16. 16.

    Goku

    Millions saw a dumb, spiteful, predatory con man pledge to brutalize millions of fellow Americans and voted for him. Also Jim Comey. The End

    This man knows whats what

  17. 17.

    efgoldman

    @Elizabelle:

    Fuck the Fucking Fascist-Enabling New York Times, where Clinton Derangement Syndrome is mother’s milk.

    Except the FTFNYT never gets weaned.

  19. 19.

    jl

    Need a thread on calling House GOPers on the TrumpCare vote tomorrow.

    I just don’t see the point of endlessly rehashing the Hillary Clinton defeat. It was a unique confluence of events. Time to think about the next election. Is Hillary Clinton going to run for anything? No. Is Bernie Wilmers going to do anything but serve as a carnival barker to bring people into the Democratic outreach events? I doubt he has it in him. When he needed to present credible policy proposals to back up his grand vision, he came up very short. I’ve been calling him ‘Broken Record Bernie’.

    I checked out the polling aggregates. I noticed that two institutions managed to have lower approval ratings than Trump, and those are the Republican and Democratic Parties. Both Republican and and Democratic Party identification is dropping and independent is rising rapidly. And seems like the GOP propoganda smearing HRC has stuck to the party: main complaint against the Democrats are that they won’t watch out for ordinary people and will favor Wall Street. And this while the Trumpsters are openly and brazenly getting ready to kill off thousands of middle and lower income citizens with their health care reform, and openly saying they need to give huge tax cuts to the very richest people in the country.

    That is a worrying puzzle I find more urgent than arguing over what tipped the 2016 election.

  20. 20.

    Eljai

    @EllenH: Thanks, that Wonkette article is kind of therapeutic, which is good because my outrage meter has been on astronomical all day.

  21. 21.

    Baud

    Once again, people sold out their country to feed their Hillary hate. No way our media isn’t going to market to them. They are money.

  22. 22.

    Baud

    @jl:

    And seems like the GOP propoganda smearing HRC has stuck to the party: main complaint against the Democrats are that they won’t watch out for ordinary people and will favor Wall Street.

    It’s because it wasn’t just GOP propaganda.

  23. 23.

    Yarrow

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: I’m so angry tonight. Fuck Republicans. Fuck all of them with a rusty chainsaw. I hope they lose their cushy government jobs and then can’t get decent insurance that covers pre-existing conditions because they’ve gutted them for everyone else but them. Perhaps they could all be diagnosed with terrible diseases that could be treated except now they’relabeled as pre-existing conditions and aren’t covered. So treatment is very, very expensive and they go bankrupt. Bonus if the next person over has a sparrow on a curtain rod and they don’t.

  24. 24.

    Splitting Image

    Here’s the thing:

    Even if everyone concedes for the sake of argument that Comey’s letter didn’t swing the election, any foreign powers besides Russia which might have an interest in influencing U.S. elections now have reason to believe that an October Surprise will work if they lay enough groundwork for the Surprise to carry weight.

    Remember how in the first season of Survivor there was one guy who created a voting alliance and won the competition because no one else had the foresight to do the same thing? And how from the second season on it became a basic strategy that was necessary but not sufficient? Next election, it won’t only be the Russians that the U.S. will have to be afraid of.

    I will further note that any potential danger could be minimized if American news media would vet the stories they run more carefully.

  25. 25.

    Gin & Tonic

    Since every thread is an open thread, I’ll just say that I hope everything goes according to plan for me tomorrow and tonight is the last night I have to struggle to sleep with this goddamned cast on my arm.

  26. 26.

    jl

    @Baud:

    ” It’s because it wasn’t just GOP propaganda. ”

    Not sure what you mean? You think it’s true compared to GOP policies since forever? That is crazy.

  28. 28.

    Sab

    I would like to mention (recommend) a book/pamphlet brought up in earlier posts. “Tyranny” by Timothy Snyder. He is an historian at Yale who specializes in 20th century central and eastern European history, which is basically early twentieth century democracies that allowed the rise of Hitler and Stalin. I know his work from reading “Bloodlands”, a history of the parts of Europe trapped between Hitler and Stalin during WWII (mostly Poland and Ukraine.) That book is long and dense and fascinating. “Tyranny” is short and pithy and has useful steps. I believe it because I have read his other work. But you don’tq have to read his other work to breeze through “Tyranny.” Just read it and try to follow some of his suggestions.

  30. 30.

    Kropadope

    @Eljai:

    In a riff on how to create jobs, Clinton made the fairly ordinary point that “if you don’t have access to high-speed affordable broadband, which large parts of America do not,” large employers will overlook your town.

    As Weigel points out in the article, Hillary campaigned on a quarter-trillion-dollar infrastructure plan which included a plan for increased broadband access.
    Yet somehow this very salient point led to an afternoon of Twitter mockery by mostly male reporters. For example, Phil Elliott of Time magazine tweeted “’You cannot get cell coverage for mile’, Clinton says of the places that voted against her.

    Obviously, trying to improve the infrastructure of far-flung localities is condescending to them. Good thing we weren’t trying to pass rural electrification in this political environment.

  32. 32.

    Kropadope

    @Baud:

    It’s because it wasn’t just GOP propaganda

    It’s American oral folklore; passed down, but also evolved from, the Old Confederacy.

  34. 34.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Sab:

    which is basically early twentieth century democracies that allowed the rise of Hitler and Stalin.

    I’ll grant you Hitler, but what democracy allowed the rise of Stalin?

    ETA: Germany had about 15 years of democratic tradition when Hitler took over.

  35. 35.

    tobie

    @jl:

    [The] main complaint against the Democrats are that they won’t watch out for ordinary people and will favor Wall Street. And this while the Trumpsters are…openly saying they need to give huge tax cuts to the very richest people in the country. That is a worrying puzzle.

    I find this development worrisome but not puzzling. Since Reagan the GOP has effectively convinced rural Americans that their campaign against big government, the estate tax, and corporate taxes is designed to help them. They did this with their endless shout-outs to small business owners, the so-called job creators. Every independent contractor I know in rural America is convinced that s/he is a small business/job creator that will benefit from Republican policies.

  36. 36.

    Splitting Image

    @Eljai:

    As Weigel points out in the article, Hillary campaigned on a quarter-trillion-dollar infrastructure plan which included a plan for increased broadband access.

    Yet somehow this very salient point led to an afternoon of Twitter mockery by mostly male reporters. For example, Phil Elliott of Time magazine tweeted “’You cannot get cell coverage for mile’, Clinton says of the places that voted against her.”

    That’s the other takeaway from this election. Clinton proposed a few concrete policies which would have made a material difference to the lives of rural Americans and they overwhelmingly rejected her. Trump proposed a lot of vaporware that won’t even affect their genuine problems. Trump won. Politicians will learn a predictable lesson from this.

  39. 39.

    Betsy

    Anyone else see the misogyny in this: the more some people hate Trump and rend their garments about his election, the more blameworthy Hillary is? The man behabes badly, the woman gets the blame. Because women are responsible for men’s misdeeds.

    Hell, women are just responsible, period.

  41. 41.

    Sab

    @Goku: I have relatives who are actual competent journalists, and they are still defending the FNYT! Boggles my tiny mind.

  43. 43.

    jl

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    OK, fine. Then I’m out of here for a few days so I don’t get steamed and stroked out by this nonsense.
    Purity ponies exist and there is freedom of speech in this country and rules for who can run in primaries (if you don’t like the rules and sincerely think Sanders running messed things up, changing the rules should be your highest priority, then, I think).
    So what is the point of complaining about it? Or are you people on board with Trump’s plan to shut down free speech and democratic process?

    I was not enthusiastic about Hillary Clinton’s campaign for one reason only, I thought she would have a difficult time winning the election. As a candidate, it was her, and her teams job to find a way to handle opposition she would face in her own party that should have been expected in a democratic election. Given the other obstacles and problems her campaign faced, she didn’t do a good enough job. That is history.

    Do you people have a plan to shut down purity ponies, Wilmer, or anyone else who wants to spout off, make trouble, or run against your favored candidate in 2020? Complaining about it does not one bit of good, does it?

    Have a good few days while you folks soak in your bitterness over the 2016 election. I have no interest in it.

  49. 49.

    Baud

    @jl: I explained why GOP propaganda was so effective. If you want to turn a blind eye to it, go ahead.

  53. 53.

    efgoldman

    @Splitting Image:

    Clinton proposed a few concrete policies which would have made a material difference to the lives of rural Americans and they overwhelmingly rejected her.

    She had tons of specific policy proposals, most of them excellent, and all of them better than anything any RWNJ proposed, most of which defied the laws of arithmetic, physics, and probability.
    And the media yawned, and said “yeah? next email, please.”

  55. 55.

    Corner Stone

    God. Glenn Thrush is on BriWi’s MSNBC show tonight. Go away, douchecanoe.

  57. 57.

    EllenH

    @Betsy: so true! The difference between how she is being treated (blamed) compared to other candidates who lost is appalling. And can I just remind people that she fuckin’ rocked the debates, even under the most intimidating and obnoxious conditions. Fuck all of. These arm chair quarterbacks. As if ANY of them could perform under that kind of pressure!

  58. 58.

    Sab

    @Goku: Have you met the Ohio Democratic organizer based out of Warren? I am an oldster from Akron, but I think he is pretty neat.

  59. 59.

    Taylor

    I am watching “Black Like Me” (1964) on TCM.

    This is an extraordinary film.

    James Whitmore plays a journalist who has his skin pigmentation changed so he can pass for black, to experience racism in the US. The racism is relentless, ugly, depressing.

    Even more amazing, it is based on a true story.

  60. 60.

    Baud

    @jl: BTW, I listened to people complain about the Dean Scream for a decade. It’s a bit early to tell any of us to move on from how we were treated in this election.

  62. 62.

    FlyingToaster

    @jl: I don’t see the outrage tonight as at Wilmer, but at the MSM for their blatant misogyny, and Comey, et.al. for their double-standards. He’s the same one-note-johnny he’s always been, and it’s certain of his followers who I have issues with, not him.

    I wouldn’t pay money for the FNYT if I won Powerball. I wouldn’t unblock CNN or FoxNoise (blocked on both our cable boxes along with all the Xtian channels) if they picked up my exhorbitant cable bill. MSNBC is likely to join the block because 3 hours an evening when I’m not available to watch is not going offset its daytime programming.

    And the current GOP has devolved into slime. Yeccch.

  65. 65.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Baud: I remember the first time somebody showed me that moment with audio from a different microphone and I was shocked how misrepresented it had been in the popular imagination. Hey, give me a break, I was like 23.

  69. 69.

    Sab

    @Steve in the ATL: Why? That’s how historians say it. @Steve in the ATL: It’s not pretentious. It’s how they have always done it. Not my fault if you want to broadcast your ignorance. I accept other specialties linguistic usages. Sorry if you cannot accept mine.

  70. 70.

    Corner Stone

    And Ashley Parker is also completely unable to get the basic point that HRC did take responsibility for the election loss. And also – pointed out simple facts.
    Apparently it’s canoes all the way down.

  73. 73.

    Baud

    @Major Major Major Major: And it was after Dean finished third in Iowa. And no one told progressives to get over how he was treated by the media. Every Dem gets treated like shit. They just way over the top with Hillary.

  74. 74.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Sab:

    other specialties linguistic usages

    Which specialty doesn’t use an apostrophe?

  76. 76.

    dexwood

    @Taylor:
    You kids. That book was required reading for my high school freshman class in 1966. We wore an onion on our belt, it was the fashion then.

  78. 78.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Sab: FWIW, Snyder’s Wikipedia page calls him ” a U.S. author, historian and academic.” I’m too tired to look for my copies of his books to see what the dust jackets say.

  82. 82.

    Chet Murthy

    @Omnes Omnibus: @jl: jl, I don’t recall you being a troll. Here’s the thing: your argument comes down to “she had all these visible negatives, -why- did the Dems nominate her?” [In short, your objection to her is tactical.] And the answer is really, really simple:

    Do you really think that Wilmer had no dark secrets? he refused to divulge his tax returns — are you so -certain- that he was pure as driven snow? The argument that “Wilmer woulda won” is based on comparing the most-investigated, most-transparent pol in modern history, with a guy who point-blank refused to divulge his tax returns.

    Let me put it this way: we all break the law every day. If we take two people, and for one of them, we troll thru their entire past, dredging up every case where they -might- have broken the law, and for the other, we dig up -nothing-, isn’t the comparison prima facie unfair/unreasonable? And this is only comparing her to Wilmer. We all know that Dampnut, a confessed rapist and fraud, beat her — that should at -least- give one pause in thinking that any amount of probity short of literal unicorn-hood would have been enough. They’d have dug up -something-. They always will and can, b/c everybody’s human.

    I’m not asking you to agree with this analysis. But at least, doesn’t it seem reasonable that -others- might agree with it?

    [And note that I didn’t even get into the fact that many, many people of color were then, and are now, pretty angry with Wilmer?]

    P.S. I use “Wilmer” only for troll-repellent reasons.

    P.P.S. OTOH, if you actually believe (and I don’t believe you do, but I’ll just cover this base) that she was insufficiently left, then …. well, I have nothing to say, other than to gape in horror.

  87. 87.

    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap

    @benwikler
    So—if we lose the vote, don’t mourn. Fight. Crucify the House. Only after pulverizing the House GOP, turn, eyes ablaze, to the Senate. 9/9

  94. 94.

    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap

    Remember in 2012 people were shown what Paul Ryan wanted to do. It was so bad they wouldn’t believe it. Maybe they will now.

  98. 98.

    Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)

    @amk: The thing is, that joke does give itself to legitimate offense…but that’s so transparently not what conservatives are actually objecting to that, so they have no leg to stand on (not to mention it wouldn’t remotely merit a firing anyway).

  99. 99.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Gin & Tonic: I’m reading a novel right now where all the dialogue is in single quotes and the programmer in me dies a little when there’s an apostrophe because the line ends up with an odd number of delimiters.

    Speaking of computers, apparently Stanford is experimenting with teaching their intro CS classes in JavaScript, which kind of proves the critique that the department has abandoned academic standards in favor of flash-in-the-pan marketability.

  100. 100.

    Taylor

    @Taylor: Well Ben says that reviews for the film were mixed. Whitmore’s makeup unconvincing and all racism is experienced through a white man’s perspective.

    Still it is striking what independent film was doing back then to deal with racism. See One Potato, Two Potato (with James Earl Jones’ dad in it), and you will realize what a joke Guess Who’s Coming To Dinner was.

  101. 101.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Major Major Major Major: Go look at the phrase I quoted. Tell me why “specialties” in “other specialties linguistic usages” doesn’t need an apostrophe somewhere. Where and how are arguable.

  102. 102.

    Chet Murthy

    @opiejeanne: From CNN

    “So, for example, if you don’t have access to high-speed, affordable broadband — which large parts of America do not, and not just rural, but suburban and urban, but predominantly rural — you are not going to attract and keep the jobs of the 21st century. That’s just a fact,” Clinton said.

    She said that during the campaign, she met people in central Pennsylvania that told her they only had dial-up service.

    “If you drive around in some of the places that beat the heck out of me, you cannot get cell coverage for miles and even in towns,” Clinton said.

    This lack of affordable, fast internet service in some places means kids don’t have the “technical capacity to actually do the homework assignments that they are given,” she said.

    I didn’t watch/read her full remarks, but sheesh, this is remarkably solicitous of these Cletus’ well-being, considering they hate her guts.

  107. 107.

    Chet Murthy

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Speaking of computers, apparently Stanford is experimenting with teaching their intro CS classes in JavaScript, which kind of proves the critique that the department has abandoned academic standards in favor of flash-in-the-pan marketability.

    This grey-hair can remember when they (many colleges, as well as IIRC the AP exam) ditched Pascal for C++ (or Java). And when MIT’s 6.001 ditched Scheme for Python. Both awful decisions. Ah, well.

  108. 108.

    amk

    THEY'RE GONNA VOTE WITHOUT KNOWING HOW MUCH IT COSTS AND THEY GET TO KEEP OBAMACARE FOR THEMSELVES. WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED TO KNOW??— Ben Wexler (@mrbenwexler) May 4, 2017

  109. 109.

    James Powell

    @Eljai:

    It’s like no matter what she says, the press turns it into something bad. They really are dicks.

    They’re assholes. They’ve been doing that since the ’92 campaign. Demonizing Hillary as the socialist Lady MacBeth was part of Bush I’s campaign. The press/media, led by the New York Times, kept it going throughout the Clinton administration. Now we have a whole new generation of press/media who were raised with the Clinton Rules and no matter where they work, but especially if they work at the New York Times, they chase Hillary Scandals like Ahab after the Moby Dick. No, wait, more like Gollum after his Precious. They know that if they come up with some bullshit claim, no matter how ridiculous or devoid of supporting evidence, their editors will give them column inches and probably front page coverage, all kinds of rumor and innuendo suggesting future revelations and imminent indictments that never materialize. If I haven’t made it clear so far, I hate these assholes. I hated them even before they made Trump president and Gorsuch a supreme court justice.

  112. 112.

    amk

    The bill cuts about a trillion dollars in funding for healthcare while cutting taxes for the top 2% by about the same amount.— Christopher Hayes (@chrislhayes) May 3, 2017

  114. 114.

    marv

    I just have the funniest feeling tonight that this is one of those nights over the last few hundred years where the fate of the nation rests in the hands of a few mediocre white men.We all understand the changing votes today of Billy Young and Fred Upton – they got to write the amendment. But now do the crucial few underlings- the undecideds – understand the situation and step up and say no. I’m not optimistic.

  119. 119.

    Kropadope

    @opiejeanne: Someone else posted the quote. I’m assuming that the closest approximate reading of the text is what the author intended,

  123. 123.

    Chet Murthy

    @Kropadope: I’m sure that Phil Elliott intended the surface reading. Here’s his tweet:

    Phil Elliott‏ @Philip_Elliott
    
    “You cannot get cell coverage for mile,” Clinton says of the places that voted against her.

    If one actually reads the quote in-context, it’s clear that she’s saying something complete different (and indeed, more-or-less the opposite of the surface reading). Ah, well. We’ve been here before, right? Shirley Sherrod. “You didn’t build that”. And the list goes on and on and on.

    ETA: To be clear: Weigel notes the same thing — that this tweet is pretty tendentious and takes HRC out of context.

  124. 124.

    Yarrow

    Something going on at Buckingham Palace. Emergency meeting called with Queen’s advisers. Speculation that Prince Phillip has died.

  126. 126.

    Kropadope

    @Omnes Omnibus: The one time I was faking anything, I was being a character you created and had been pretending I was for months. You clearly recognized the difference.

    The projection is only the beginning of the phony in your baloney.

  132. 132.

    Mike in NC

    Might be 50-100 years before Americans will vote for a female president. Based on prior history of racism and misogyny.

  136. 136.

    Lizzy L

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Thanks. More of this, please. I don’t think this POS bill will pass the Senate, but thinking that doesn’t change the level of my fury at the House. Votes have consequences, motherphucker, is what I want the Republicans to hear tomorrow. Vote for this POS bill, and in 2018 you lose your seat. Gone baby gone.

  137. 137.

    Sab

    @Omnes Omnibus: So what was your fucking problem with it? Maybe discuss instead of lurking in comments with hazy references. I used to respect your comments. Tonight you have been a jerk.

  138. 138.

    Kropadope

    @Omnes Omnibus: You have some fake ass idea about Berniebros you built up in your mind and tried to paint any Bernie-supporting or even Bernie-curious person as that. After months of putting up with your deluded lies I finally lash out and hsow you what it would look like if I were what you accused me of being.

    Given that I have heard about this aberration ever since, and generally had it acknowledged as such, that was obviously not my normal behavior. Stop using humans as punching bags and go to a dojo. It’s healthier for all involved.

  140. 140.

    opiejeanne

    @Chet Murthy: Thanks. There was a missing “s” on “miles” so it makes sense now. Geez, they made fun of that? They’ve never driven the charming little backroads and through the less populated parts of this country, let alone I-5 through Oregon. We drive that route from Seattle to LA 4 times a year and there are long stretches where there is no phone service let alone internet, and people do live in those areas.

    My Ozark family in Missouri helped build the Bagnell Dam which promised to bring electricity to the area. It began in 1929, was completed in 1931, and somebody got electricity but not them. They didn’t get it untl the mid-50s. The dam project bought farms from them and the town of Lynn Creek. Relatives used to take a picnic lunch and point out the remnants of the town above the water as recently as the late 60s.
    “Look, there’s Grandpa’s hotel and the top of the bank building.”
    These people used to vote for Democrats and they were starting to return from their flirtation with the Republicans until we elected Obama. I don’t speak to the ones left there any more,but they were very distant relatives.

  141. 141.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Sab: Good god. You jumped on people about the “an historian” thing. I mocked you for failing to use an apostrophe. Toughen up.

  146. 146.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kropadope: I have a clear difference in my mind between people who supported Bernie in the primary and then switched to supporting the party candidate – however reluctantly – and those who continued bitching about her when the contest was between a fascist and an imperfect center-left candidate.

  149. 149.

    efgoldman

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    those who continued bitching about her when the contest was between a fascist and an imperfect center-left candidate.

    Once a clueless Wilmerbot, always a clueless Wilmerbot

  150. 150.

    Kropadope

    @Omnes Omnibus: What about those supported the candidate candidate but who continued to be aggrieved at the incessant hippie punching?

    ETA: I think the problem here, and this goes for efgoldman too apparently, is that some people can’t tell the difference between denouncing Clinton and denouncing hippie punching. I’m denouncing hippie punching.

  152. 152.

    efgoldman

    @Kropadope:

    I’m denouncing hippie punching.

    If by “hippies” you mean Wilmerbros who likely voted third party, for Orangemandyas, or stayed home, goddamned right.

  153. 153.

    Chet Murthy

    @Kropadope:

    I’m denouncing hippie punching.

    Would you agree, that there are those who also conflate “hippie punching” and “calling out Wilmer’s attempts to throw minorities under the bus”? B/c yaknow, he did. And as many, many people have noted, these aren’t “identity politics”. These are about cold, hard cash, and the things that minorities (and women, and LGBT folks) must do, and endure, to get as much as equally-qualified white men.

  155. 155.

    efgoldman

    @Kropadope:

    I didn’t do any of that and still get the punches, so what gives?

    I’d punch you in the throat just to shut you the fuck up. You are miles beyond tiresome.

  156. 156.

    NR

    @Chet Murthy:

    [And note that I didn’t even get into the fact that many, many people of color were then, and are now, pretty angry with Wilmer?]

    Considering that his favorability ratings are significantly higher with people of color than they are with white people, you are wrong on the facts here.

  157. 157.

    Kropadope

    @Chet Murthy:

    Would you agree, that there are those who also conflate “hippie punching” and “calling out Wilmer’s attempts to throw minorities under the bus”?

    Your evidence?

  158. 158.

    Chet Murthy

    @NR: *cough* He’s back! Nuhrrrr, Nuhrrrr, Nuhrrrr! Now do you disappear in a cloud of sulfurous smoke? Damn, where’s that down-at-the-heel wizard! I want my silver back, this spell is worthless!

    Google “sanders boston aren’t deplorable because i’ve been there”

  159. 159.

    Chet Murthy

    @Kropadope: [LOL] Dude, there’s a lot of it on this blog’s comment sections, for starters.

    ETA: Let me add that on Twitter, while I still follow him and still like him, sometimes Gen. J.C. Christian -definitely- goes there.

  160. 160.

    sab

    @Omnes Omnibus: STill a twerp. Still no actual response. “Good God” in response to what?, you nitwit? What the duck is your problem with my comment. You have bee complete as whole all night. You are a regular so you can attack everyone else with impunity. Our happier, angrier, more intimidated balloonjuice. Yep. That’s us. Thanks Ominous whatever.

  162. 162.

    Kropadope

    @efgoldman: Well imagine how tired I am of you assholes and liars. I’m sorry I don’t like your hobbyhorse. There are more constructive things to do than tell 40+% of the people who voted in D primaries you don’t want them in your party.

  164. 164.

    NR

    @Chet Murthy: I know what Bernie Sanders said in Boston. It’s irrelevant to the fact that your statement that “people of color are angry with Bernie Sanders” is false, as shown by polling data. He is more popular with every non-white demographic group than he is with white people (though he is reasonably popular with white people as well).

  165. 165.

    Kropadope

    @Chet Murthy: Where in this blog’s comment section? Also explain to me why whole groups of people should be made to answer for a handful of nutters among them.

  166. 166.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @NR:

    Considering that his favorability ratings are significantly higher with people of color than they are with white people

    He’s so popular with minorities that he got a puny 14% of the vote in the South Carolina primary, losing in a landslide 85-14!

    Total Disaster!

    Sad!

  167. 167.

    Kropadope

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Every Democrat’s favorability ratings are consistently higher with people of color than with white people. They can prefer one Democrat to another and still support both. Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?

  168. 168.

    efgoldman

    @Kropadope:

    Well imagine how tired I am of you assholes and liars.

    Nobody makes you come here and flog a shouty old tax evader who is STILL doing his damnedest to destroy the party he can’t be assed to join.
    I have nothing against the primary voters. Most of them came home. But three million votes (how many Wilmer lost the primary by) isn’t exactly an endorsement.
    He’s not going to run again anyway. Whoever decides to, won’t be so kind about pointing out his shortcomings and vulnerabilities. Turns out HRC shouldn’t have gone so gently on him anyway.
    He is a fraud, He was always a fraud. The fact that so many people fell for his crap is almost as bad as the racists who fell for Cantaloupe Caligula

  171. 171.

    amk

    @Kropadope: David cited how ‘popular’ was bs with people of color. And you are blathering about dems. bs is not a democrat. Not by stretch of logic or even imagination. Moron.

  172. 172.

    Chet Murthy

    @Kropadope: Oh, ha, thank you David Koch! Now I understand what “favorability ratings are significantly higher with people of color than they are with white people” means (I think). I assumed it meant “PoC favor him over Clinton, more than white people do”. But in fact, Kropadope is saying it means “PoC like him, more than white people like him”. Which is, as they say, like arguing that water is wet.

    Thanks, Kropadope, and David Koch, for clearing that up!

  173. 173.

    NR

    @Chet Murthy: They detail their methodology. They use a sample that’s weighted for demographics and then they get sent the survey online. It’s not an online poll that anyone can participate in.

    But since we’re talking about evidence, how about you provide some evidence to support your assertion that people of color are angry at Bernie Sanders? You’re the one making the claim after all, it’s on you to back it up.

  174. 174.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Kropadope: you just answered your own question. blacks are loyal democrats. therefore they’ll support any generic democrat. but offering general support that is contingent on party id doesn’t translate to personal popularity.

    to wit: the hilarious videos of him awkwardly stumbling around black churches.

    In a Black Church in South Carolina, Bernie Sanders Struggles to Get an ‘Amen’

    WEST COLUMBIA, S.C. — The problem began as soon as Bernie Sanders walked into the dining room of the revered and predominantly black Brookland Baptist Church here. Instead of flocking to him, as supporters do at his large college rallies, many of the church’s 780 members present looked up for a moment, then quietly went back to eating their Sunday feast — unmoved as Mr. Sanders, the senator from Vermont, tried to work the room.

  177. 177.

    Kropadope

    @efgoldman: I’ve been coming here a decade. I’m not going to stop coming because a clique of jerks want to bitch and moan all day while there’s still plenty of worthwhile stuff here to read. But if it tires you to read my negative reaction to your gross obsession, well, nobody makes you come here.

  178. 178.

    Chet Murthy

    @NR: Uh *cough* I believe David Koch did exactly that already, to wit, search for “race”. I found “race by gender” also very informative. This is just for the SC primary, but certainly all the reporting I’ve seen of the primaries, supported the narrative that people of color weren’t as impressed by Sanders.

  179. 179.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @NR: he’s so “popular” he could only manage a paltry 43% of the combined vote in the primaries, against a flawed candidate.

    Total loser!

  180. 180.

    Chet Murthy

    @Kropadope: Lemme ask you a question: have you seen this video?

    And have you read this?

    On one level, one could argue that when people get angry at Wilmer, and not at Nancy, we’re holding them to different standards. On another, and this is IMPORTANT, when Nancy wavers, we know she’s not doing it to beat up the Party. She’s doing it to -help- the party succeed. She might not be right. In this case, I don’t think she is (and lots of women, from whom I’ll take my cue, agree). But AT WORST she’s in the tent, pissing out.

    What that Wilmer&Tom video and tell me he’s in the tent pissing out. I don’t see it.

  182. 182.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    2020 promises to provide endless irony as the 79 year old near octogenarian is ripped apart by the corporate media for hiding his tax returns and the FBI investigation of his wife, while Putin and Wikileaks hit him every hour with fake news.

  183. 183.

    danielx

    Millions saw a dumb, spiteful, predatory con man pledge to brutalize millions of fellow Americans and voted for him. Also Jim Comey. The End

    — ~unintelligible~ (@ZeddRebel) May 3, 2017

    You say in the book that Trump basically went to the American people and said, “Pull a lever for me and you’ll horrify them all.” And 60 million people said, “I’m in.”

    Both on point, more or less.

    And Comey feels mildly nauseated* at the suggestion that his letter might have affected the results of the election, does he?

    “Concealment, in my view, would have been catastrophic,” he said, adding later that he knew the decision would be “disastrous for me personally.”

    Wondering how he he defines catastrophe, since his definition must be a damn sight narrower than mine. Can’t say the decision has exactly disastrous for him personally (yet), as he still has his job and the personal thanks of one Donald J. Trump.

    It’s not a catastrophe that there’s a rich, petulant eight year old whom nobody has ever told ‘no’ sitting in the Oval Office? There was a fucking front page article in USA Today (5/2/17) discussing how frightened people are about the possibility of World War III at the moment, and he’s still worried about how things might have looked in political hindsight?

    I hate to go all Samuel L. Jackson here, but motherfucker…please.

    We might still be hearing about HRC’s emails and listening to wingnut howls and ominous congressional investigations if she’d won, but people probably wouldn’t be as worried about the possibility of the world ending. So given that we’re still hearing about her emails, still listening to wingnut howls, and still hearing about ominous investigations, I’m looking for the downside in a Clinton victory and coming up short. On the existentialist axis as opposed to the political axis or ‘optical’ axis, you might say…

    Thanks, Mr. Comey. I am awed – awed, I say! – at the depth of your concern for the integrity of the political process.

    You complete and utter tool.

    ETA: He should feel a damn sight worse than nauseated. Hope her never gets a good night’s sleep again for the guilt and shame, though I know it’s unlikely – at that level those are mostly intellectual concepts as opposed to emotions.

  184. 184.

    NR

    @Chet Murthy: And as was already pointed out, the primary numbers don’t mean that people of color didn’t like Bernie Sanders, it just meant they liked Hillary Clinton better. And anyway, you didn’t just say that PoC weren’t impressed by Sanders, you said they were angry at him. Which the primary results are certainly not evidence of.

    Edit: One other thing. Bernie Sanders won the votes of PoC under age 40. So even the “unimpressed” feeling (if that’s what it was) wasn’t universal.

  185. 185.

    SFAW

    @Chet Murthy:

    Um, Chet, maybe I’m mixing up my references/memes, but didn’t saying Beetlejuice’s name three times cause him to appear, not disappear?

    Since I am not aware of all Internet traditions, there is a reasonable chance that I am wrong or confused. (Well, the “confused” part is ’cause I’m old, but still …)

  186. 186.

    Chet Murthy

    @SFAW: Oh no! I thought it was the other way around! Oh noes! rrrrrrrrN, rrrrrN, rrrrrN!

  187. 187.

    SFAW

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:

    2020 promises to provide endless irony as the 79 year old septuagenarian is ripped apart by the corporate media for hiding his tax returns and the FBI investigation of his wife, while Putin and Wikileaks hit him every hour with fake news.

    But her e-mails!

  188. 188.

    SFAW

    @Chet Murthy:

    Oh noes! rrrrrrrrN, rrrrrN, rrrrrN!

    Um, that might be the method for Mr. Mxyzptlk, and HE has to do it himself — but only once. But if we can get him to say “naissur evitan,” it might work.

    Standard disclaimer: old, confused, possibly/probably worng, e-mails, Goldman Sachs

  189. 189.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @SFAW: Just wait until Putin/Wikileaks start publishing the emails (real and fabricated) of Jane Sanders, Tad Devine, and Comic Book Guy.

  190. 190.

    Chet Murthy

    @NR:

    the primary numbers don’t mean that people of color didn’t like Bernie Sanders, it just meant they liked Hillary Clinton better.

    Wha? You -agree-? B/c yaknow, that was my point ‘way ‘way up-thread.

  191. 191.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    What do the latest polls say?

    Latest: Tuesday May 2

    A Britain Elects poll makes damning reading for Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party.

    It has the Tories out on 46 per cent – 19 per cent ahead of Labour on 27 per cent.

    27 percent?!?!

    Hard to believe a true Socialist like Corbyn is losing by a historic margin to a NeoLiberal.

    I guess Socialism isn’t the wave of the future, as the Alt-Left insist.

  192. 192.

    NR

    @Chet Murthy: You specifically said that people of color were angry at Bernie Sanders. That goes way beyond them just liking Hillary Clinton better.

  193. 193.

    Chet Murthy

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: If and when they come out, and (as I fully expect) it turns out that Wilmer and Co. also engaged in rough tactics and body-checking (like every pol), I fully expect that Dems in authority will shrug and say “politics ain’t beanbag”. B/c it ain’t, and they’re adults. I fully expect that HRC will do the same. B/c she’s an adult, too.

    I don’ t expect we’ll find out that Wilmer (or his advisor Devine) was in cahoots with Vladi, but hey, it’s not outside the realm of possibility. Doubt we’ll ever find out what’s in his tax returns, but shit, his utter unwillingness to divulge ’em really does make one suspicious, eh? I mean, to flout a norm going back to Tricky Dick …..

  194. 194.

    Jacel

    Something that surprised me during the campaign were rare reminders of just how actively Hillary was conducting interviews on local TV and radio stations. She was not ignoring smaller, rural areas, but this was her vehicle. However, all of these scattered interviews lacked any multiplier factor, such as the media provided for Mr. LoserOfThePopularVote at his every rally, tweet, or phone call to Morning Joe. What Hillary had to say when talking with someone from one community could have made an interesting impact on a listener or viewer from a similar community, who never heard about it.

    This is one of the few persisting reports I’ve seen documenting that aspect of Hillary’s campaigning that is pretended to not exist.

  196. 196.

    Chet Murthy

    Echidne’s got an excellent post about the recent statement by Nancy Pelosi about the Democratic party being open to people who aren’t pro-choice.

    I won’t quote any of the post, b/c it’s worth reading fully. But lemme just note that Nancy’s gonna get cut a lot more slack than Wilmer, b/c she’s a Dem, and she doesn’t go pissing on our party. And that’s as it should be, dammit. Which doesn’t mean that a core Dem constituency like women, are going to put up with this actually changing in any substantive way. But she’s -earned- some flexibility in her public statements, b/c we know she -actually- has the good of the party in mind.

    That matters.

  197. 197.

    NR

    @Chet Murthy: a) That’s one group of people in one state, and b) I’m still not seeing the anger there.

    Bernadette L. Rogers, a 67-year-old retired social worker, said that Mr. Sanders seemed sincerely interested in issues facing blacks but that she thought Mrs. Clinton’s experience made her the better candidate.

    Where is the anger?

  198. 198.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    The bad news for Sanders’ visits to South Carolina started last Sunday, when he made an unannounced visit to the Brookland Baptist Church in West Columbia, South Carolina. Reports from the event said that churchgoers mostly picked at their food as Sanders spoke and stayed silent during call-outs to the crowd — a far cry from the rowdy audiences he’s used to on the campaign trail.

    Later in the week, Clinton visited the same church and is said to have wowed the audience, getting standing ovations from the black sorority members, young and old, who attended the event.

    Stone cold Silence always equals popularity – Amirght!

  200. 200.

    Chet Murthy

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: David, nice. Following your pointer, I found this.

    A Stanford/ University of Oklahoma study released this month created a “feeling thermometer.” African Americans rated Clinton 14 points more warmly than they did Bernie Sanders. Among women, the gap grows.

  201. 201.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Chet Murthy: Here is Sanders holding a rally for blacks in South Carolina — but when you look at the photo, something is missing (photo)

  202. 202.

    NR

    @Chet Murthy: What cherry-picking? There was no anger on display anywhere in that article.

    In fact, I’m still waiting for any evidence at all of this “anger” toward Bernie Sanders that you claim is so prevalent among people of color.

  205. 205.

    Chet Murthy

    @NR: two responses:

    (1) really? If it weren’t for your decent command of American vernacular, I’d start to wonder if you were a furriner, my friend. (Esp. Black Southern) churchgoers don’t engage in vituperative demonstrations in their houses of worship. The most you’ll get is “bless your heart”. The evidence is the cold shoulder he got. Or couldn’t you see that?

    (2) Perhaps this’ll help: A blog post about the 2016 Dem primary

    And finally, this link seems very apposite

  206. 206.

    Librarian

    @NR: You can post all the anecdotal evidence you want about “anger”, but the fact is most people of color who voted didn’t vote for Sanders and didn’t buy what he was selling.

  207. 207.

    Citizen Alan

    “The people who heckled Clinton at her own convention REALLY don’t want to admit what a gift they gave Trump.”

    It’s funny, but whenever I see commercials for The Handmaid’s Tale featuring those poor women dressed like Amish slaves, I like to imagine that they’re all those silly young women who were Bernie delegates to the DNC and who said afterwards that they still weren’t sure who to vote for.

  208. 208.

    NR

    @Chet Murthy: Look, I have actual data stating that Bernie Sanders is popular with people of color. If you want me to believe that they’re actually really, really angry with him instead, you’re going to have to bring a lot more to the table than a couple of blog posts (which are actually quite reasonably written and not especially angry) and one event in one state that featured some silence that you’re reading a hell of a lot into.

  209. 209.

    NR

    @Librarian: I’m not the one relying on anecdotal evidence here, Chet is. As I said, I have actual data that shows that Bernie Sanders is popular with people of color.

  210. 210.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @NR: so “popular” that they didn’t vote for him. Hell, they wouldn’t even attend his “rallies” unless it was to take his microphone away from him.

    Heh!

  211. 211.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Betsy:

    n is acceptable and used to be even preferred before an h in an unstressed syllable. An hiSTORian. /Pedant

    “Used to be” is the key there. Now it makes one sound like an asshole. Even if technically allowable under an archaic rule, is the affectation of a pretentious jerk.

  212. 212.

    NR

    @Citizen Alan: I too believe that people who disagree with me politically deserve sexual slavery.

    Oh wait, no I don’t, because that’s horrific.

  214. 214.

    Chet Murthy

    @NR: here ya go (per Chauncey Devega)

    “Liberal racism is a very dangerous thing. Absolving Trumpthuglicans of their sins. Nope. Not. Ever. Brother Malcolm X had it figured out four decades ago.”

    Oh, but we’re still dealing with anecdotes.

  215. 215.

    NR

    @Chet Murthy: You realize that the writings of one person in a country with tens of millions of people of color is the very definition of an anecdote, right?

    Get back to me when you have actual data that supports your claim.

  216. 216.

    Mnemosyne

    @NR:

    Wait, the guy who spent yesterday arguing that unnecessary vaginal ultra sounds are A-OK for the state to legislate as long as they pretend that they’re voluntary (after the version of the law that made them mandatory was struck down by the state’s Supreme Court) is now claiming that other people are cheerleading the sexual slavery of women?

    Just when I think you’ve reached the outer limits of your lack of self-awareness, you prove me wrong again.

    Hey, tell us again how an abortion ban after 20 weeks is a more pro-choice position than Hillary’s championing the framework of Roe v Wade. I laughed for hours after that one.

  217. 217.

    Keith G

    I think almost all of the above can be true, all the same time.

    Hillary Clinton is a uniquely qualified political leader and public servant who does have weaknesses, particularly in the methodology of running a successful campaign.

    She suffered an amazing amount of personal attacks and amazing amount of bullshit press coverage. The contest between her and Donald Trump underwent a historic level of interference from both inside US government and outside boundries of the country.

    Despite all that, because she was running against the most flawed individual ever to be nominated she still won the popular vote and I believe had it distinctly within her possibility to win the electoral vote.

    I believe she did not run the best campaign she possibly could have. I believe that her campaign choices suffered from management and strategic flaws not unlike the problems seen in 2008….. plus a few new twists. This also includes a fundamental misread of the energizing emotions of the 2016 electorate.

    That’s why I think all of the above can be true. Hillary Clinton suffered an amazing amount of interference to her run. Unfortunately, decisions she made early on as her campaign grew from conception to reality hurt her chances to run the best race possible and therefore able to survive the attacks which were aimed at her.

  219. 219.

    SFAW

    @Steve in the ATL:

    “Used to be” is the key there. Now it makes one sound like an asshole. Even if technically allowable under an archaic rule, is the affectation of a pretentious jerk.

    You hrang?

  220. 220.

    different-church-lady

    OK, let’s for a moment say she did “miss the mood of the country.”

    What the fuck was she supposed to do? Be an even bigger overt racist than Trump?

  221. 221.

    SFAW

    @different-church-lady:

    What the fuck was she supposed to do? Be an even bigger overt racist than Trump?

    Obviously. But not be a bitch/harpy/she-devil/woman/DemonRat while doing so.

    And not have hand-delivered weapons to the terrists in Benghaziiiii!!!!!.

  223. 223.

    Betsy

    @Steve in the ATL: “is acceptable.” It’s still a correct option, even though it was more prevalent before.

    I don’t know who decides that it sounds pretentious. Personally, I think it depends. It might be very consistent within a formal speech that emphasizes other similar usage.

    Also: how pretentious can a thing be, if it’s free to anyone who wants to use? Why this impulse, always, to take people down for speaking well, doing things skillfully? I think it’s a sickness. Informality has its place, but formality also does. However, there’s this American thing — “YOU THANK YER BETTER’N ME”

  224. 224.

    NR

    @Mnemosyne: Oh hey, you’re back, and still lying about vaginal ultrasounds. There was no “pretense” involved, they were explicitly described as voluntary in the law.

    You really don’t have even a shred of decency, do you?

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