Here’s Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov making a sarcastic joke about the Comey firing during an appearance with Secretary of Exxon Rex Tillerson this morning:
In case you can’t watch it, in response to a reporter’s shouted question about Comey, Lavrov says, “Was he fired? You’re kidding?” in mock surprise. The jocular son of a bitch was probably hand-delivering Putin’s approved list of FBI director candidates, plus a step-by-step guide to removing the sanctions.
Chuck Schumer laid out a solid case for an independent investigation in the US Senate this morning, and the Senatortoise from Kentucky promptly smacked it down. Nothing to see here, citizens! Move along. All the Republicans are falling in line because they are craven lickspittles who care more about hanging onto power than protecting US sovereignty. But you knew that.
According to WaPo’s Paul Kane on Twitter, Schumer plans to use a procedural rule to cut off committee hearings to slow down senate business. Good. Elected Democrats need to use every trick in the book to throw sand in the gears. Not just today, every day, until a credible independent investigation is authorized.
I plan on calling my reps today and sharing my views on Trump’s thuggish abuse of power, the complicity of the Republicans in congress and the DOJ’s improper interference in an ongoing investigation. I urge you to do the same.
Baud
Schumer has been great so far.
ETA:. In difficult and unusual circumstances.
ET
Tillerson should be embarrassed. And angry. This was the Russian Foreign Minister laughing at the US. Directly to its face.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: I’ve been pleasantly surprised. Was never a fan.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Cue BS supporters baying that he is Wall Street whore. I find the usually talkative senator’s silence on the Russian boondoggle interesting.
clay
@Baud: Schumer? That neo-liberal corporatist sell-out?!? No, we need to primary him, hard. Once he loses his primary, and his opponent is then defeated in the general, then Dems will learn that being from the same state as a bunch of Wall Street businesses is unacceptable!
Doug!
@Betty Cracker:
He’s done some fucked up things, but he’s a smart tough guy. I like him til he went the full Likud on the Iran deal. I still haven’t forgiven him but he’s a fighter.
Bill
Last night as I watched talking head after talking head say some version of “now there will have to be a special prosecutor,” I just kept thinking “the Republicans will fall in line and never appoint one.” Unfortunately Yertle proved me right this morning.
It’s always party before country with this bunch. Always.
Kay
The US told France Russia was trying to interfere in their election but no one in the US government could bother to tell US voters Russia was interfering until after the election?
This isn’t about Donald Trump. We should get a competent investigation because this is their job.
You don’t get to be in the democracy club unless you can manage free and fair elections. They failed voters. They need to fix it before the next one because it will happen again and once again we will only find out the broad outlines after the election is over. Too late! Not good enough!
They need to do the minimum job of a state actor and run elections properly. They’re failing again and again and no one is explaining anything to the public. We don’t even know what the motive was. How are we supposed to evaluate the actions of our elected officials if no one even bothers to tell us WHY this might have been done?
clay
@Bill: This is the big test for the media. If they keep on the “special prosecutor” drumbeat, then something may actually come of it. If they decide to move on to the next thing…
Yeah, yeah, I know…
JMG
The Senate can appoint a new committee, but not a special prosecutor. That would take either a law (ha!) or an appointment by the Deputy AG in charge of the Russia matter (ha, ha, ha!).
In other news, a bill repealing Obama methane regulations failed in the Senate because McCain voted no. Since I’m sure he knows as much about methane regulation as myself — nothing, I assume this was a fit of pique about Comey.
Kay
@Baud:
Schumer is smarter than Trump. I’m glad he’s the lead.
tobie
Dems should never have voted overwhelmingly for Rosenstein. Yes, it would have only been a symbolic gesture to vote no, but in hindsight the symbolism would have been important. Now McConnell is using that vote against us. The GOP is dirty to the core. You can’t play ball with these folks. This is now patently evident. The question is if we’ll have the time to save the republic.
germy
@schrodingers_cat:
They’re saving it for the possibility of Kirsten Gillibrand running for president.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
that’s one of the reasons I was skeptical of him as majority leaders, but IIRC his main competition was Durbin, whom I like but isn’t nearly as good at the kind of media manipulation and televised jousting that shouldn’t be so important, but is
aimai
@tobie: None of that matters. McConnell isn’t “using that vote against us” because he doesn’t have plenty of other stuff to use, or other ways to look at defanging or attacking Dem opposition. Stop monday morning quarterbacking shit you don’t understand.
Bruce K
I may be an expat, but my Senators are Schumer and Gillebrand. I’d like for them to throw as much sand in the gears as possible, because we’re at the point where any governing that gets done in the United States sort of has to be assumed to be to the detriment of the United States – I mean, McConnell and Ryan are at the point where they’ve got to choose between loyalty to the USA and loyalty to the GOP, and no prizes for which way they’re going to come down…
tobie
@aimai: Whoah. I take your point. It’s valid. I resent the tone.
clay
@JMG:
Huh. I wouldn’t have thought it. Well, I’ll take any victories we can get, with whatever help we can get. So here’s to John McCain! May he remember that he once thought himself a maverick!
cervantes
Everybody talks about the investigation into Russian meddling in the election, but I haven’t seen anybody point out that another focus of the investigation is the allegation that Russia is blackmailing, or has the means to blackmail, the Resident. Is it not of interest that the meeting with Lavrov is happening today? Let us see what emerges . . .
Baud
@Doug!: He probably could have killed it if he really wanted to.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@aimai: I agree, it would’ve been nice if Dems had presented a united front against every Trump nominee, and god knows there were reasons for every one to be opposed, but that’s not the kind of argument that’s going to change the minds of your tote bagger sibling and in-law who voted for Hillary, doesn’t like trump, but voted their R Sentor or MoC because, really, we’ve got to do something about entitlements (translation: they want a tax cut), or the less well off people who aren’t really sure about all this Russia stuff, but whatabout (ISIS/crime/immigration/taxes/whatever)
Gin & Tonic
@clay: It was actually McCain, Graham and Collins voting “no.”
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@germy: they already have
hovercraft
I actually watched this live on TV, I’ve fallen off the wagon this week, I just had to see how the villagers reacted to the Yates then Comey situations, anyway, Mrs Greenspan who was the one who yelled the question in the first place came on and she and Morning Joke went back and forth about how charming and funny Lavrov is and how he’s run circles around all of our SoStates since he’s been there, barely a mention of him mocking our travails, just commentary about how much friendlier him and Rex seem compared to their frosty meeting in Moscow a couple of months ago. Useless pieces of shit.
Kay
Well, so much for the awesome power of the “deep state”, huh? Looks like the reality tv show host and his low quality hires beat them. Again.
If they’re “surveilling” all of us they’re not using anything they find. We still don’t know jack shit about Donald Trump and his family, or really any of these people. No one has produced anything and now they’re shutting down all investigations. Good job! Awesome.
JMG
@Gin & Tonic: That totally reinforces the suspicion this was a little warning shot at Mitch.
MaryL
In this moment I wish I had a Republican rep or senator just so I could call their office and start yelling about the unconscionability of not appointing some kind of independent investigator. I mean, I’m not surprised by McConnell’s announcement, but it is absolutely outrageous. Trump’s corruption is so obviously beyond the pale that anyone who even remotely cares about the rule of law should be stepping up to demand an accounting.
eclare
Calling my senators during lunch today. They are Alexander and Corker, but I have to at least speak my piece.
ETA> Corker is up in 2018, will definitely mention that.
schrodingers_cat
@hovercraft: Ruskies must have intel on her and her husband.
hovercraft
McConnell Defends Trump’s Firing Of Comey, Opposes New Investigations
McConnell noted on the Senate floor Wednesday that Democrats had been critical of Comey’s handling of the email investigation.
“Last year the current Democratic leader said it appeared to be an appalling act, one that he said goes against the tradition of prosecutors at every level of government,” he said, referring to Schumer’s criticism of Comey’s actions in the days before the presidential election. “And the prior Democratic leader, when asked if James Comey should resign given his conduct of the investigation, he replied ‘Of course. Yes.’”
McConnell also argued that a new investigation of the potential connections between Trump and his affiliates and Russia — Democrats have called for both a special prosecutor and an independent commission on the matter — would only impede the existing investigations.
“Two investigations are currently ongoing,” he said, naming the Senate Intelligence Committee and FBI investigations. “Today we’ll no doubt hear calls for a new investigation, which could only serve to impede the current work being done to not only discover what the Russians may have done, but also to let this body and the national security community develop countermeasures and war fighting doctrine to see that it doesn’t occur again.”
“Partisan calls should not delay the considerable work of chairman Burr and vice chairman Warner,” he said, referring to the chair and vice chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, respectively. “Too much is at stake.”
clay
@Gin & Tonic: I figured that there were three Repubs involved. My point still stands, though: any victories with any allies.
EDIT TO ADD: … and for whatever reasons. I’m not picky.
MattF
Kevin Drum has a good take on it:
ETA: I assume Drum’s use of ‘astronomical’ is a metaphor, so astrophysicists shouldn’t feel offended.
Kay
@cervantes:
How will we know? We have no idea what they want. They barely bothered to tell us it happened, let alone why.
I feel like voters in all these other countries who are rejecting this had much better information. I have nothing other than a collection of opinions and speculation and this is MONTHS after it happened. How are other countries managing not to end up with this muddy mess?
amk
@cervantes: Russian blackmailing is a corollary that is bound to come out if there are any honest investigations.
? ?? Goku ? ?
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Tell them the GOP are authoritarian traitors for protecting Trump. Remind them that the RNC was hacked last summer and the emails have not been released
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: I blame the R-party couldn’t have happened without their active participation.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MaryL: Cheryl Rofer pointed out this morning that Dems need calls too, numbers that say “My constituents believe…”
Baud
@hovercraft:
About a tenth of the number of investigations into Benghazi.
Adam L Silverman
@tobie: Two different former DOJ officials, one an Obama appointee who worked for the Deputy Attorney General from 2009-2014, have noted, after rereading Rosenstein’s memo, that the DAG did NOT recommend Comey be fired. Based on their reading, and knowledge of Rosenstein, they are arguing he got handed a highly politicized tasker a week after being sworn in, did it to the letter of the assignment, not the spirit, and based on the final paragraph negotiated hard for the specific language in that final paragraph. Language that includes no recommendation on removing Comey. Here’s a link to one of those:
https://twitter.com/EricColumbus/status/862140805934460929
Kay
@hovercraft:
Oh, bullshit. Trump’s horrid mouthpieces said last night we all need to “move on”. He’s not planning on investigating jack shit. They’ve never shown any urgency about the fact that tens of millions of voters were NOT well-served by this.
They aren’t doing their jobs. They have given voters absolutely nothing they can use to evaluate what’s going on. By the time we get it it will be too late, just like it was last time.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: You think Comey’s firing is a win for T and his enablers in the Congress? I beg to differ.
germy
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD):
Ah, so the kneecapping begins… They’re nothing if not proactive.
Mike J
Adam L Silverman
@cervantes: @Kay: Has to provide the 1st Quarter report directly to the representative of the Home Office.
Baud
@Mike J: Next up on MSNBC, why didn’t Hillary hold more press conferences?
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
These are the same people who couldn’t get Donald Trump to release his tax returns, and did absolutely nothing when he put his son in law in charge. They will fail. They have failed every day since he was elected. This isn’t getting better. It’s getting worse and just rolling on as if it’s “normal” isn’t working.
hitless
It’s way more likely Trump serves two terms than he gets impeached or resigns. The Comey firing will be forgotten by next week as the media moves on to whether or the new FBI director Bondi should prosecute Hillary…and they’ll conclude she probably should in order to uphold the rule of law.
Anyway, the tell that no investigation is close to producing anything is that Trump hasn’t issued blanket pardons to his people yet. Until that happens, nothing is going on. And if/when that happens, the whole situation is over anyway.
America is a Republican country…a one-party system in which any opposition is simply for show. Full capture of the judiciary is the last remaining obstacle, but Trump will likely complete that within his first term in office.
D58826
Pence just spent 9 minutes explaining why the DAG, on the job for 2 weeks, out of the clear blue decided that Comey had to go. Next up the WH will be to announcing plans to re-introduce pink unicorns to the Yellowstone ecosystem.
Baud
Man, I’m beginning to see why so many voters prefer conservatives. Thankfully, our elected leaders have some fight in them.
dm
@schrodingers_cat: you trout this out a lot. A simple Google search would show you that you haven’t been listening, not that he hasn’t been talking about it.
I don’t blame you for not listening to him, but also don’t imagine demons when we have enough already.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: So what do you propose, we all commit some kind of a ritual mass suicide? Who is this they you are talking about? Congressional leadership? FBI? I am not sure I follow.
T may look like he his winning, his overreach is going to bring him down, how soon is the question.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@germy: How much longer until they become a Counterpunch clone? I’ll be generous and say May 2018.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
When do political media drop the benefit of the doubt with Donald Trump? He consistently outperforms even my rock-bottom expectations. They’re fucking pyschoanalyzing him instead of collecting anything anyone needs. I don’t care how he thinks. It isn’t about him.
Adam L Silverman
@D58826: He also lied and misrepresented what Rosenstein did. He kept saying, and repeating, that Rosenstein recommended Comey be fired. No where in Rosenstein’s memo does he make any recommendation on whether Comey should be retained, fired, or whether any other disciplinary efforts should be taken. Reporters asking him questions on this need to have a print out of Rosenstein’s memo and ask the Vice President to show them where in the memo Rosenstein recommended firing Comey.
p.a.
I qualify for Italian citizenship. I may go for it; if I’m going to be a citizen of a corrupt, incompetent government I might as well go with a country that has specialized in corrupt incompetence for generations while maintaining a zest for life as opposed to puritanical Pence-ism.
Rasputin's Evil Twin
Somewhere, Nixon just did a face-palm while yelling “Stupid, stupid, stupid! Didn’t any of these assholes learn from my mistakes?”
Bill Arnold
Long form article on how this is the third Trump/Russia investigator fired (at least one tweet seen yesterday):
Trump has now fired 3 high-profile federal officials who were investigating him and his associates
Obligatory Ian Fleming quote (Goldfinger novel, 1959):
hitless
@schrodingers_cat:
Trump’s firing of Comey is absolutely a win for Trump and the Republicans. They get to install a more compliant director and will. A few random editorial boards of newspapers no one reads will have “concerns”, but no one has the power to stop this and everyone….Democrats included, will acquiesce in the end.
Mike in DC
Crossing my fingers that the Rocket Docket will issue at least one indictment before this can all be swept under the rug. Though I really don’t think it will be swept under the rug. Too high risk of a gamble for the GOP to roll with. If it fails, the Republican party as we know it goes extinct.
MaryL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, but then I don’t get to yell at anyone.
LurkerNoLonger
Betty’s back! Spittin’ fire!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dm: and simply clicking on the links from that google search will show that he mentioned Russia only after banging on about how the Democratic Party, of which he is not a member, needs to reform, for reasons he’s always quite vague about.
Kay
@D58826:
They can’t even use the attorney general anymore because he’s lost all credibility. That has to be a record.
They have to rely on this rotating cast of characters because these people can’t retain credibility for 30 days post-appointment. Then we start the cycle over- THIS will be the “good” one! THIS is the professional! The cavalry came after all! Wait a month and he’ll be a clown too.
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat:
And he’s going to take down a shit-ton of Republicans with him.
People: yesterday at this time, Comey was still Director of the FBI. A little patience, please (to go with making calls to your congresscritters and other people’s critters).
We must get a Special Prosecutor and independent investigation. It should not be that hard to build support for that.
So what if the Republicans won’t do anything until they are forced? Force those fuckers.
@hitless:
Oh for fucking fuck’s sake. Have you seen that man? Stop with this ridiculousness. I am ashamed for you.
tobie
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks for the thread. Interesting link. I met an attorney who worked with Rosenstein and also studied with him and his experience was that he was always even-handed and brilliant. He was concerned about the memo he wrote. It didn’t match the person he knew…but maybe your twitter link is right and what’s important is that he didn’t explicitly recommend Comey’s firing.
Elizabelle
@Mike in DC: Comey got it to the Rocket Docket.
And anyone who thinks that some good agents in the FBI, and judges, aren’t taking a really serious look at this?
Why do so many of you want to assume the villains ALWAYS win? That they’re so powerful there is not a thing we can do? Man up. It’s hard, but we can do this.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: Yeah. Horrible position to be in, and Rosenstein can exercise more influence if he stays IN the department rather than resigns.
That sounds like a good take. We will probably see more work like that.
Kay
Absolutely. No rush. Let us know how Russia interfered in the next election sometime in the future, Senator.
Maybe US voters can appeal to Germany directly for any information they have. No one here is telling us jack shit.
schrodingers_cat
@Elizabelle: I have never seen this handle before. So I ignored it. Got no time for doom and gloomers who may or may not be Russian trolls.
ETA: And right on cue, Boris attacked the Democrats in his reply to you.
Adam L Silverman
@tobie: He didn’t. Just read the actual memo. AG Sessions did, in his letter to the President referencing the list of issues that Rosenstein delineates in his memo.
amk
@Kay: The pivot is a perpetual thingy.
Nixon indictment happened mostly due to a dogged media. Can’t expect the same with the current infotainment media, which is a worthless pos
hitless
@Elizabelle:
If you are implying that health problems may force Trump out before 8 years, that’s true.
I have yet to see any evidence that the timid and ineffectual Democrat party will do anything. Imagine if any of this had happened with a Democrat president…the calls from Republicans that a traitor was in the White House would be deafening. Instead, we get polite suggestions a special prosecutor picked by Republicans might be in order. Or not, if doesn’t happen. But at least Shumer suggested it…he’ll note he tried, fund-raise on it, but say its time to move on.
FormerSwingVoter
Am I the only one who thinks it’s weird that Politico has literally *nothing* about this on their website? It’s as if it never happened.
Kay
Apparently the public has no right to know who or what or why interfered in THEIR elections. This is all about Donald Fucking Trump and his feelings. The dopes will show up and pull the lever at the appointed time and we’ll put all this behind us.
? ?? Goku ? ?
@hitless: He won’t be able to serve two terms if he’s fucking dead. From stroking out while screaming at Fox News over coverage that he’s being subpoenaed in by a grand jury
Elizabelle
@hitless:
The tell.
Go fuck yourself.
schrodingers_cat
Do not feed the troll, that says Democrat party.
Starfish
@MaryL: Call mine for me. I am just too disillusioned to call him.
Baud
@Elizabelle: The whole thing is a tell. The Dem party is great right now. Obviously, being in the minority limits what you can do, but they are doing the most with what they have.
sukabi
@Kay: just a guess, but I’ll bet their journalists and news entities take their jobs a bit more seriously than ours do. Bet they don’t have a “both sides” mandate.
clay
@Adam L Silverman: Not that it matters as far as culpability is concerned, but Pence is probably to dumb to understand the understand the fine line that Rosenstein’s letter walked.
Kay
@amk:
I wasn’t asking for a “smackdown” or some kind of dramatic perp walk. I just wanted a competent investigation and some transparency. We’re not getting it. We’ll vote blind again like we did last time.
Jeffro
@Elizabelle:
I’m with you (and Chuck Schumer, and Mark Warner, and Chris Coons, etc) – man up, indeed. Trumpov has undone himself with this move, and indictments are on the way.
JanieM
Angus King proposes…
? ?? Goku ? ?
@hitless: Ah. “Democrat” president. That’s the tell. Also, Dems are pretty powerless at federal level at the moment. That will change in 2018 if we don’t lose hope first
Uncle Cosmo
It’s been a few decades since I read Allen
DrearyDrury’s fall-of-the-Republic potboiler Come Nineveh, Come Tyre, & my memory isn’t what it was, but IIRC……& I ask myself, how different is this (in spirit at least) from contemporary American history? I hope to be proven wrong…but I fear for the nation & the world.
D58826
For the life of me, and I don’t mean to sound naive, but I don’t see what Der Fuhrer has gained at least over the long run. If he picks a person beyond reproach with impeccable credentials then the investigation will continue full speed ahead. If he picks a Sessions mini-me then the FBI will have no remaining credibility. All Der Fuhrer has done is pour high octane gas on the issue.
Elizabelle
FIRST: BREAKING: FTFNYT: And it’s their headline, big and all caps.
@Kay: Put this up for you in the “Tragedy/Farce” thread. Good point by Mr. Jon Stewart.
Kay bait. From Fuck the Fucking New York Times: recap of late night television (which is the only place safe for truth to power, so it seems, with 24 hours of programming each day):
Yeah. How is it we only have standards for comedians? And Democrats?
mapaghimagsik
@schrodingers_cat: one of the angles of agitprop is to convey hopelessness.
Baud
@? ?? Goku ? ?:
Hence his presence here.
Kay
@D58826:
They want a delay so they can get some of their crap policy thru. Delay, delay, delay. It’s what they have.
Adam L Silverman
@clay: Without a doubt.
Adam L Silverman
@Kay: May I ask a serious question? How does one conduct a transparent counterintelligence investigation?
Ian G.
I’m beginning to doubt that there’s anyone left in the Republican Party who has any interest in maintaining democracy and the rule of law. Those who do (Bruce Bartlett, for instance) fled long ago.
The moneyed class doesn’t need democracy to do business in places like Dubai or Singapore. So long as the government is “pro-business”, what do they care?
And the Drumpfenproletariat base went around the bend when a black man was elected president, and has decided that Putin is the last hope for white civilization, so they’re fine with being Russia’s vassals. It’s not unprecedented. France elected a Jewish prime minister, Léon Blum, in the late 30s, and a good chunk of the French right lost its mind and decided Hitler was the last hope for France. It’s not like Vichy sprung up out of nowhere in the summer of 1940.
Elizabelle
@Baud: I am so proud to be a Democrat.
We are strong. We won the popular vote decisively. We are the future. We believe in science, in progress, and in taking care of our own. We believe in the common good.
chris
Now there is something I never expected to be talking about. All my life the USA has discussed the sovereignty of other countries and how hard they’re going to step on it. Fight the power, comrades!
aimai
@D58826: I don’t know why you think Trump cares about FBI credibility. As far as Trump is concerned the organizational map and work tasks of the entire federal government are irrelevant. He is just a parasite that attached itself to a host and is eating it from the inside out. He doesn’t care if its legs cease to function, or if it dies while he’s eating it.
Adam L Silverman
@Uncle Cosmo:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/10/comey-gets-uncomfortably-close-then-gets-fired-by-trump.html
dm
@Kay: I’ve been upset with the way that the data-collectors have not warned businesses of specific vulnerabilities to cyber-attack. The traffic is legally monitored, since so much of the malware crosses national boundaries, and the attacks represent a threat to our economist security. One example of what I mean is the Sony attack a few years ago (the perpetrators are thought to be North Koreans.
The IC gives us general warnings about industrial espionage, but they could also serve as the nation’s intrusion-detection system (I don’t think “firewall” is at all the right metaphor).
I suppose it’s probable that they are sharing detailed information with ISPs, and I guess they can’t announce to the public “Business X has been hacked” (and also, things may have changed since I was on the edges of that sort of thing), but….
Although to address your point, the IC told their French counterparts about the Russian hacking, they didn’t tell the French public. They did the same in the US, leading to that meeting with Obama in which McConnell threatened to cry politics if Obama went public.
mapaghimagsik
@Elizabelle: well said.
dm
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: look I said,i didn’t blame her for not listening.
Hitless
@Elizabelle:
I’ll use the adjective “Democratic” when they earn that respect. I know they have limited power at the federal level but I find their lack of aggression in the media to be more than disheartening. They should have Moulton or Shumer out each day repeating the ethical violations and scandals of the administration. And yet that has not happened.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: You got a link to the NT Times article?
Elizabelle
The whole of the breaking NY Times story: JUST DAYS BEFORE FIRING, COMEY ASKED TO EXPAND RUSSIA INQUIRY
And that’s all she wrote. For now.
Can you imagine being Rosenstein? It’s very likely you’ve already been tasked with coming up with a justification to fire this guy, you yourself are ethical, and you see he’s getting somewhere with his investigation.
We are not hopeless.
mapaghimagsik
@dm: I think they try but one of the challenges is that signature-based detection is tricky and determining baseline traffic in the face of our rapidly changing network is likewise imperfect
geg6
@Elizabelle:
Yeah, I want to play Poe-Ker with this one. I’d clean up!
? ?? Goku ? ?
@Kay: That may happen. People will do either two things:
1. Lose hope and despair. Go along to get along and accept that that the US is no longer a democracy.
2. Enough people will become angry. So angry that they’ll take mass action to oppose and topple the regime. Through civil disobedience, and following possible crack downs, violence against GOP government.
I’m not certain if the US is quite there yet, but I think those are likely options
Elizabelle
Link for the NY Times story: https://nyti.ms/2q3fS9F
Immanentize
@Kay: I suspect the French connection has something to do with the hasty way that Comey was let go. News outlets reported that we were closely watching the hacking efforts in real time during the French election. That is one of the reasons the Macron campaign was so well prepared — it was a sting as much as anything. I think we will soon have more information about the mechanics of collusion with the Russians available to law enforcement. But maybe that will not ever see the light of day — at least not in the US press?
mapaghimagsik
@Immanentize: it also be that without France, they had to up the timetable.
? ?? Goku ? ?
@Hitless:
Fuck you. They’re the only viable political force standing up for democracy and the rule of law. The media hates democrats anyway. Hardly ever invites them on
amk
@aimai: Very good analogy. twitler is just that. I hope he kills off the host entirely and leaves nothing behind, including the rotting carcass.
sp98
Did a post by Adam just disappear?
satby
@Elizabelle:
I said this yesterday too. Jayzus, it’s just ridiculous to think that not one of 11,000 FBI agents, not one Supreme Court Judge, yes, not even one Republican would turn on Drumpf. Especially if people pour in the outrage. This is just beginning, and it’s a miscalculation on Drumpenfuhrer’s part.
Adam L Silverman
@sp98: Not that I’m aware of. I have not done anything but comment in this thread today. Which post do you think disappeared?
satby
@Elizabelle: yep, as competent as their dear leader, which is to say not very.
jacy
@Elizabelle:
I agree. Trump is going to seem like he’s winning, until he’s not. It’s only been 110 days, and look at the chaos. Anybody who isn’t fatally compromised has got to do a daily calculus, and when that calculus starts to tip, I think it’s going to tip hard. I have no illusions that Republicans have an ounce of integrity, but some of them have to have some instinct for self-preservation. Trump is batshit crazy, and Republicans know it. They ALL know it. They thought at first they could maneuver around the crazy, and they’re still clinging to that notion. But it will eventually be too much, because narcissists never moderate, they only accelerate. And he’s not only a pathological narcissist, he’s got some other deficit that looks a hell of a lot like incipient dementia. This will not end well for them, and until it falls totally apart, we need to keep are heads and mitigate the damage and be vigilant.
Having dealt with a narcissist, I understand that it’s very easy to become demoralized and suffer outrage fatigue. We’re experiencing that on a grand scale right now. This is the time to be resolute and keep swinging.
dogwood
@hitless:
I’m sick of people like you who have no understanding of how the government actually works, or do understand but like to spout the leftist talking points, or Russian talking points. Either way, you’re not an honest broker. Democrats would be doing plenty about this if they had any power. But they don’t.
schrodingers_cat
@jacy: Many are deliberately sowing doom and gloom so that we give up without a fight.
dm
@mapaghimagsik: true, but talk about being in a position to see all the important bits… I suppose, also, that enough network traffic is is composed of malware attempts that finding the successes is real needle in a haystack territory (use a magnet).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
generally said to be one of the most vulnerable R-MoCs, IIANM
this may be the reporter’s phrasing, but I do wish Dems and others would say “independent investigation” instead of “special prosecutor”. As David Frum (god help me) points out, a prosecutor is looking for specific, indictable crimes (see Patrick Fitzgerald and the Plame affair). I think this needs to be a broader and less specific scope.
OT: someone yesterday mentioned this may change the math in GA-06. I think that’ll be interesting to watch, and I know Ossoff and his people know the district better than I do, but I would hope he starts hitting this. If nothing else, forcing Handel to talk about investigating trump may cost her some trumpy voters
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: They are not being universally fawning, either. Washpost has been quite tough, especially on this issue. Yes media is a problem, but its not all so black and white.
germy
@hitless:
Elizabelle
@jacy:
Yes, yes, yes. To all of your post.
Plus: we know the Republicans were hacked too. Gonna be interesting to see if and when that comes out, and what is divulged.
Republicans put party before country. They own that.
amk
@Hitless: paging doug! or dougj, or whatev. This is your emoprog.
Hitless
@? ?? Goku ? ?: I agree that the Democratic party is the only viable political force for saving the Republic. That’s why I want them to do a better job. There’s no way that dougjs mom should be ok with the firing. That she sort of is means that the Dems are failing to move public opinion.
FlipYrWhig
@hitless: Democrats lauded for their noise-making and aggressive rhetoric in recent years have included Anthony Weiner and Alan Grayson. There’s perhaps some overlap between that character type and other character flaws.
Baud
@germy: ‘It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.’
schrodingers_cat
@amk: Hitless is probably DougJ, his centrist schtick with the Bess avatar was getting old.
dm
@Baud: yeah, Schumer has been a real pleasant surprise — Wall Street connections notwithstanding — Harry Reid was a pleasant surprise, too (it’s been so long I’ve forgotten why we were supposed to worry about Reid)
Elizabelle
Now the WaPost has the story about Comey requesting more $$ up too as a breaking news headline.
Shit getting real. Plus this little front page blurb:
We can roll sycophants and amateurs.
NotMax
Kellyanne Conway: “It’s not a cover-up.”
Translation: It’s a cover-up.
mapaghimagsik
@dm: agreed. Like to see us take a page from Frances playbook, which we may have, and it pricked the hastey action re Comey.
If you can put markers in the data, that can not only gets picked up, but provides a trail. We just need a big Data company willing to help anyone other than themselves.
Baud
@dm: We hate Reid because he corralled 60 Senators to pass the ACA without a public option.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Yeah. That was funny.
Also funny: Trump staffers gonna think of his first 100 days as the good old days.
Ladyraxterinok
@Elizabelle: YES!!!
? ?? Goku ? ?
@Hitless: @germy:
Moving public opinion takes time. Also Dougj’ s story is anecdotal
amk
@Elizabelle: Excellent. Rest of the media should follow wapo’s example.
Baud
@? ?? Goku ? ?: And shouldn’t we be holding DougJ responsible for what his mom believes?
Hitless
@dogwood: They aren’t Russian talking points. Just defeatist in the sense that I see no evidence that the Republicans plan of a permanent majority is in danger of failing, even though it is being promulgated by a corrupt and compromised administration.
If the Dems can move popular opinion to the point that they get an independent prosecutor, I will have been proved wrong.
The Moar You Know
@dm: This is what I do for a living, which is why my mood alternates between “despair” and “frustrated despair”. They are not capable of doing what you suggest. Not even close. Most of that inability stems from an LE/compsec antithreat industry long coasting on government contracts; they are literally twenty years behind the state of the art in penetration technology (I go to their workshops and want to walk out crying every time) and the only reason they are able to give us any kind of warning about espionage at all is that they simply skim the work of the few competent private individuals who are actually looking for such threats.
FlipYrWhig
@dm: IIRC the HOT TAKE on Reid at the time was that he is (1) a Mormon and (2) not all that liberal, and I think he was looked at askance for some views on reproductive rights. Some liberal/Democratic/etc. people have never quite recovered from the leadership of Daschle and Gephardt during the run-up to the Patriot Act and Iraq War and they’re always reliving that primal trauma.
Weaselone
@Hitless:
Are you under the impression that the Democrats decide who gets to be on TV? Let me remind you way back in the days before Trump was President, that the news media would rather show half an hour of empty podium than a Hillary Clinton speech.
dogwood
@dm:
People worried about Reid and Schummer because they think ideological purity is some proof of a skill set with regard to carrying out the duties and responsibilities of actually performing a specific job.
FlipYrWhig
@Hitless: This is putting WAY too much stock in “public opinion.” A lot of “the public” doesn’t change opinions, because they’re assholes. It seems harsh to blame Democrats for that.
jacy
@Elizabelle:
I think McConnell is fatally compromised. Either that or he’s just high on his own supply. But that will make him weak in the end, because somebody below him is going to take advantage of that. In sowing chaos, somebody somewhere will see the advantage of being the last honest man and the knives will come out. Who is that person going to be? Hell if I know. But there’ll be somebody. There always is. And then the deluge, because nobody will want to be last sucker.
HRA
@Kay:
dww44
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: David Frum has actually been quite good from the get go on Trump’s candidacy and election. He’s careful to always highlight his conservative bona fides and encourage the Congress to pass its healthcare legislation and tax reform plans by supporting an independent investigation as a good way to get the monkey off their backs and improving their chances in 2018..
Obviously, though, he’s got zilcho influence on McConnell.
mapaghimagsik
@The Moar You Know: amen. I can’t go into detail, but my company has every opportunity to identify normal behavior, the technology to detect abnormalities, but we are still staring at entrails when it comes to intrusion detection.
germy
Baud
@dogwood: See DNC Chair race.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yup, but I always try to remember who and what he is, politically. And politics aside, he seems like a real dick.
FlipYrWhig
@germy: Off and on, I’ve been watching Wolf Hall. Trump basically thinks he’s Henry VIII, doesn’t he?
Adam L Silverman
@The Moar You Know: Yep. Major issue that has to be addressed.
Baud
@FlipYrWhig: Last poll I saw said public opinion was overwhelmingly in favor of an independent investigation. The difficult isn’t there, it’s in getting the public to enforce their opinion against Republicans.
sp98
@Adam L Silverman: Can’t find it now, or the comments I was reading: you had posted a very concise and clear analysis, and two commenters had complimented your post (or comment?) – I was sure it was in a post put up since last night. Must be a problem with my computer or my computer skills. Sorry!
germy
@FlipYrWhig: I don’t know if he’d get the reference, but he does share some personality traits.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
well, put and @Baud: yup. To the point where mentioning Perez’s actual political history was considered a cop-out argument.
Hitless
@Weaselone: I agree that the media enterprise is biased against progressive values and towards “establishment conservativism”. That doesn’t mean the Dems can’t do a better job…they need unified messaging saying that the admin shouldn’t get to pass any law until it shows it is not compromised. And they should be able to stage events that demand coverage.
At some point, to believe things will change, you need to see evidence that it can happen.
amk
@germy: Any chance comey will go public with exposing that threat?
dm
@FlipYrWhig: thanks, that sounds like what I was vaguely remembering.
? ?? Goku ? ?
@dickless: I think they’re getting there, dickless
germy
@Weaselone:
As I recall, her speech they ignored was full of ideas and solid goals.
And then the purity ponies complained that HRC had no beliefs or policies other than “It’s my turn!”
jacy
Comey no longer set to testify on Thursday because he was fired, and will be replaced by acting director.
The optics on this are going to be deadly.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: NY Daily News top story. Oh good. Pence has just attached himself to an anchor too. The little dear. The whole of the story:
Vice President Pence says James Comey firing was about ‘fresh start,’ not Russia investigation
Adam L Silverman
@germy: I saw the original source on that last night. She’s a twitter user with an acronym nym from Florida who was tweeting it at anyone and everyone she thought would retweet it: Rick Wilson, Louise Mensch, Claude Taylor, etc. It is unclear who she is or who the sources are who she claims to have heard it from. So is it possible? Sure. Is it accurate? Who knows. The Politico, Axios, NT Times, WaPo, and other reporting are all making clear that the President was angry because Comey was getting a lot of airtime, as was the Russia investigation, and that Comey would not publicly state that there is no connection. So that provides some tangential support to the claim. And it certainly wouldn’t surprise me. But the sourcing on this is very, very thin.
Mustang Bobby
@Rasputin’s Evil Twin: News reports out of San Clemente, California, site of the Nixon library, say that there has been a slight “seismic incident” at the grave site of the late president and a voice heard to say “Look what happened when I pulled that crap.”
Adam L Silverman
@sp98: What was the post about? The Comey thing? The request for 5 thousand more troops in Afghanistan? Pretty much everything I post here can be found by going to quick links at the top right and clicking on Silverman on Security. The only stuff not under that link are recipes and late night, Floriduh Man type open thread posts.
germy
@amk:
Damfino. He’s a republican who thought a Clinton win would be a catastrophe. Will he man up and put country over party? I can’t predict.
dogwood
@amk:
Nope
satby
@Hitless: and what are you doing about that?
mapaghimagsik
@jacy: the optics are merely a weapon. We need to press dems to wield it.
amk
@germy: at least now he has a ‘probable cause’.
Adam L Silverman
@jacy: The committee can, and likely will, issue an invite for him to come in and testify. Just as they did with Sally Yates. Acting Director McCabe is a straight shooter. And yes, the optics look terrible.
germy
@Adam L Silverman:
I think I’ve been spending too much time reading the Palmer Report. Explosive headlines, but some of the reporting is more conjecture than anything else.
I don’t remember how I got hooked on that particular site. Somebody on a different blog linked to him, and I was off to the races.
MattF
@aimai: ‘Parasite’ is an excellent metaphor– considering that Trump’s progeny are so busy digging themselves deep into the local ecosystem, always seeking new hosts..
jacy
Trump is unraveling. Fast. You can tell by the insults and the charged language. He’s attacking Blumenthal this morning.
Narcissists are all about projection and blame shifting. ALL THE TIME. And when that fails, they panic. I’m telling you, Trump is starting to seriously panic.
satby
@jacy: and Sessions is looking at replacing the acting director, presumably because he’s a competent straight shooter. If they do, watch the FBI go rogue.
MomSense
@Kay:
As bad as the prospect of Russia continuing to meddle in our elections is, the part that is really terrifying is that Russia will be able to meddle in a helluva lot more than just our elections if they currently possess Kompromat on the GOP, individual members of the GOP, and elected officials.
There are a number of foreign policy and economic issue that could be in play right now (using Russian pipe for DAPL?), sanctions, NATO, etc.
MCA1
@jacy: My early money for that would be on Ben Sasse. Darkhorse: Marco. One’s been the only consistent openly anti-Trump R from the start, and the other’s been licking his wounds from the humiliation he suffered at the hands of Trump (I mean, Christie really was the guy who sank him, but whatever).
If they’re smart they’ve been sucking up to McTurtle for awhile now, to try to get better access to the weapons to launch their hostage taking.
Elizabelle
@Elizabelle:
ETA: When I hear “not about the Russian investigation”, I’m hearing it in the voice of Laura Benanti, who did an amazing Melania interview with Colbert. Locker room, Billy Boosh, all of it.
Moose and squirrel.
JPL
@Mustang Bobby: laughter is the best medicine
PJ
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Even if he’s right on Trump, he’s still a Republican hack, the one who gave us the “Axis of Evil”, which contributed to the launch and failure of the Iraq War: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/30/the-shadow-commander (New Yorker on how the “Axis of Evil” jab turned Iran from a potential ally into a definite enemy in Iraq.)
Wjs
@Hitless: fuck you, comrade.
Hitless
Right now, mostly getting pilloried for defeatism in a comment section on the web.
Whatever I would say I’ve done would be disputed, up to and including voting for representation that I want to do more. So I don’t think my providing a list would be useful or interesting.
It’s certainly a fair point that I could do more; that doesn’t invalidate my disappointment with the Democratic party.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think Marco’s come up lame. He may linger on in the Senate for another term or two, he may run for governor and may win in that nutty state, but if were to make a bet on the next Republican/Village hero, it would be Sasse. He’s got all the makings of being Chris Matthews’ next man-crush
MCA1
@jacy: Hard to determine whether those optics, or the optics of hosting his handler, the Russian Foreign Minister, in the White House the MORNING AFTER firing the FBI Director investigating his collusion with Russia, are worse.
germy
Blumenthal:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Hitless: go be disappointed in voters, or do something to change their votes
@MCA1: and bringing Kissinger in for a phot op…? If I weren’t skeptical of trump’s ability to think long-term, and the logistics of getting a 90-something to be anywhere on short notice, I’d think there were a plan to all this
amk
@germy: yeah, comey hedged that bet and lost bigly.
Hitless
@mapaghimagsik: Yes. I totally agree…let’s just imagine this comment is what I posted instead of my angry trashing of the Dems inability to do more.
I’ll take my personal record for number of times being told to fuck off and stop commenting on it now.
Corner Stone
In case no one has said it recently, Tom Brokaw can go fuck himself and locate a fire to fall in.
SatanicPanic
Man I wish I could be so optimistic about whatever information these investigations produces being acted on.
MattF
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Marco’s big problem is that his ambition is so intense, it blinds him to the notion any mere policy choice actually matters. He’ll say this or that, but if it seems that any particular policy choice could get in the way of his glorious future, it just goes down the memory hole.
schrodingers_cat
@FlipYrWhig: I read some somewhere that Bannon thinks of himself as Cromwell.
PST
Another thumbs up for Senator Schumer. And ten years from now, when Trump is an unpleasant memory, and I once again fine most things David Frum and Jennifer Rubin write appalling, I am going to spare them a kind thought. They didn’t scurry back to the party line like a Hugh Hewitt. They give every appearance of meaning what they say, and on the subject of Trump, they’re right.
amk
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: heck, forget getting the other voters, it should first vote itself, it’s a imma take my ball and go home twit.
Bruce K
@schrodingers_cat: I remember reading that from somewhere. I also remember it inspired me to look up what ultimately happened to Cromwell, and let’s just say that I hope Bannon shares Cromwell’s fate.
mapaghimagsik
@Hitless: good. In your skill set to add one more? Arithmetic is hard, so bless your fucked heart, tool.
Archon
@Baud: Republicans just passed a “health care” bill with 17 percent approval rating.
Republicans at this point don’t care about public polling on issues. And frankly I can’t say I blame them since 40 percent of the country will vote R no matter what and another 10 percent are looking for ANY excuse to vote Republican.
MCA1
@germy: To which the President of the United States responded with a storm of tweets in which he called Blumenthal “Richie,” then taunted him by saying he “cried like a baby.” Again, this is the President of the United States. It is staggering that anyone can watch this person in action and think it’s better than whatever they didn’t like about Hillary Clinton.
FlipYrWhig
@schrodingers_cat: I’ve seen a version of that remark too.
Hitless
@amk: oh for goodness sake…I did vote and said as much. I’ve done more than just vote, though not a lot. Rip on me for not volunteering for a campaign…that would be justified.
mapaghimagsik
@MCA1: back to those who want to watch the world burn. 2018 promises to be telling.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MattF: It seems so obvious to me that the Sasse/McMullen route is the way for an ambitious Republican to go, I can’t believe more of them haven’t followed it, especially Marco, given his relative youth and the fact that he’s not up for re-election till after 2020. If it were the sort of bet I could place, I’d bet Nikki Haley resigns in the next 18 months over some principled foreign policy disagreement with the administration
ETA: McCain and Graham are old and want their war-agra and think trump will give it to them, Ryan wants his Randian dream and may well be dumb enough to think it will make him a hero. The ones up in ’18 have good reason to fear the Tweet, but Rubio… he’s like Pence, just too dumb to figure it all out
amk
satby
@Hitless: bot is a fast learner:
amk
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: mcmullen is more consistently outspoken than weaselly sasse.
NotMax
@MCA1
“But, but, Americans love it when I say ‘You’re fired!’ Yuuge ratings. What happened?”
? ?? Goku ? ?
@Hitless: How about we rip on you for being a concern trolling idiot?
dww44
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I agree but he has been/is currently an honest conservative and has provided good ideas for dealing with Trump.
Also thanks to you for this comment in a later comment in this thread:
I laughed out loud because he does love him some politicians on the other side of the aisle. I watch him more these days just to see which way his wind is blowing, although his constant interruptions of his guests still make watching him a sometimes painful experience.
Patricia Kayden
@hitless: I agree with you that Democrats need to be more aggressive and in your face with the MSM to emphasize how unconstitutional and abnormal Trump’s behavior has been. But at the same time, Democrats are playing the hand with which they were dealt. They don’t control anything in Congress and the most they can do is shout fire at the top of their lungs. I’ll give them an “A” for effort and encourage them to continue to object to Trump’s misbehavior and potentially criminal acts. Schumer and Pelosi have done a good job of keeping their chambers in line — especially when it comes the ACA. So far, so good.
? Martin
@hitless: Be willing to bet he doesn’t nominate anyone and leaves the position vacant.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@amk: he has also, thus far, refused to commit to running (realistically) for public office, but from appearances enjoys all the speculation. I don’t think he’s decided yet just how ambitious he is
Hitless
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: it is surprising… I would guess that means that either polling tells the repubs that Trump is still supported by primary voters and/or leadership is doing a job pressuring them to stay in line.
Elizabelle
Reuters: OK, this turns out to be from February and Macron is now President of France, but still ….
Macron offers refuge in France to U.S. scientists, entrepreneurs
I love that Macron can use the term “obscurantism” — whatever it was in the original French — and feel confident it will be understood.
Canada’s also looking to benefit from Trump America’s obscurantism.
amk
@Hitless: I totally believe ya.
Brachiator
Unfortunately, one of the things that the GOP learned from Watergate was the importance of backing the president early and solidly, no matter what.
@MomSense:
The UK and France seems to have been able to shrug off Russian hacking attempts. I wonder if much of this might come down to Trump and his family selling themselves to the Russians. On the other hand (or related),
That’s some cold ass deadpan mockery.
ETA: Work has been extra busy this week, so it’s hard to keep up with the news and the comments here. Lots of good stuff. But it’s been a crazy ass week. Lots of stuff going on under the headlines of the hottest stories.
The Moar You Know
@PST: Can’t speak for Frum but I’ve been reading Rubin and she has been a real surprise. And I will remember her conduct. I doubt I agree with her on anything save for Trump’s evil, but I’ll say this for the woman: she has integrity. Legit integrity. The kind a lot of people could learn from.
Hitless
@? ?? Goku ? ?: I guess you can consider that done, though I don’t think that hyperbolic defeatism and concern trolling are the same.
amk
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: or he is still building his name recognition (which seems to be a ‘major concern’ for the media minions)
dww44
@Corner Stone: While I’m skipping around in this thread and don’t know what prompted your Brokaw remark, but I strongly agree. He was such a weasel last night on either Maddow or O’Donnell, saying that “those of us who live in NYC, understand how Trump operates, etc…..” It was a silly effort to explain Trump and his actions and a pushback against those who were calling for stronger investigating of the President.
Spinoza is my Co-pilot
Maybe doom ‘n’ gloomers in the comment section are trolls, maybe not. Who fucking cares?
How about engaging with the notion that we’re well and truly fucked (our esteemed blog host has written that very thing here a number of times over the past few months — is he a troll?) and come up with plausible scenarios that demonstrate “no, we’re not” instead of hand-waving it away as defeatism or Russian agitprop.
In the case of the Trump Administration — and let’s just consider right now only this latest deal with Comey’s firing and the related much larger topic of Russian interference investigations — there are only 3 institutions with any power to do jackshit about it: Congress, the DOJ, and the Fourth Estate. That would be the thoroughly-GOP-controlled Congress, the Jeff Sessions DOJ, and our mostly useful idiot/fascist fellow traveler contemporary Fourth Estate.
All of you screaming “Defeatist!” and “Troll!” — tell me how any of those 3 does anything but cover-up and normalize what’s going on. Because I’m not seeing it.
Doesn’t mean I don’t fight (which I’ve done since my first political campaign in ’68, as a young lad helping, in a very small way of course, my dad’s union working to elect Democrats in Cleveland). I just do so with no expectation of victory, and a sad realization that the majority of my fellow white folk in America have come to really enjoy the taste of fascism, or just don’t fucking care.
So I must be a troll, I guess. До свидания,товарищи!
MattF
@PST: I read Jen Rubin’s posts with increasing astonishment. She quotes Democrats with approval, she doesn’t buy any excuses from anyone. Even her animus towards Hillary Clinton seems to have softened– and that’s the last line in the sand for disaffected conservatives.
satby
Even the Nice Polite Republicans led off the news today that Kissinger had an “unscheduled” meeting with Drumpf in the White House, and proceeded to tie Drumpf firing Comey to Nixon firing Cox. It wasn’t complimentary.
scuffletuffle
@p.a.: not to mention the food and wine…
Ian G.
@PST:
Maybe they never scurry back. Bruce Bartlett was once a major Reaganomics architect, but reading him today, he sounds like a mainstream Democrat.
FlipYrWhig
@Spinoza is my Co-pilot: DISILLUSIONED COMMENTER IS DISILLUSIONED
Jeffro
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Front-pagers (or whomever’s in charge of the BJ Lexicon entries): “war-agra” needs to be added to the Lexicon, por favor. That’s awesome.
Timurid
@Hitless:
отвали, мудак, бля!
Jeffro
@MattF:
Well, see having principles will do that to a person.
FlipYrWhig
@dww44: Brokaw has been a moron since, I think, birth. And that’s without even taking into account his late-stage persona as The Guy Who Made World War II Important.
mapaghimagsik
@Spinoza is my Co-pilot: I hope encouraging others to give up gives you the strength to go on.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dww44: Brokaw is a blazing mediocrity who has internalized the baseless admiration of the people around him who confuse “being on TV for as long as I can remember” with “being a wise and experienced journalist”, with the whole “Man Who Invented World War II” as poisonous icing on the cake. I’ll never forget from 2012, Lawrence O’Donnell’s star-fucking introduction of Brokaw as a living legend et cetera, it ate up half a segment, barely leaving Brokaw the time to pooh-pooh the idea that the Romney campaign was engaging in racial dog whistling, and while I think anyone with a modicum of self-awareness would’ve been embarrassed by O’D’s gushing and fawning, at least attempted some self-deprecating response, however insincere, Brokaw seemed to smugly accept it like incense duly offered to a small god.
amk
LOL. turkey’s twitler not happy with the murka’s twitler.
germy
Talk about running government like a business:
Reminds me of a company I worked for in the 1980s. An arrogant jerk was the top boss, and he had a team of arrogant jerks for middle managers. The Human Resources lady (who had worked there twenty years, before their reign) went on vacation for a week. When she returned, I saw her walking quickly up and down the hall in front of her office in a panic.
They had packed all her stuff into boxes while she was gone. That’s how she found out they were laying her off.
This administration reminds me of every fucking toxic workplace I’ve ever worked in over the past 35 years.
Barbara
@Spinoza is my Co-pilot:
I don’t see the reason to spend mental energy on what appears to be a doomed quest to persuade a person who starts with the assumption that all is lost. We may or may not be doomed but to the extent that doom can be avoided it will be attributable to people acting on the principle that we are not. You are not such a person and therefore, whether you are right or a whether you are troll, you aren’t adding anything constructive. Go give up in the peace of your own mind.
Elizabelle
@Spinoza is my Co-pilot: You speak of institutions.
There’s a fourth factor. The American public. The sane part of it. We can remind them they work for us. And we can give cover to Democratic congressmembers as they throw sand in the Trump administration’s gears.
It’s tough sledding, no doubt, but we are not powerless. Unless we lay down and give up.
And I know you are not going to do that.
One suggestion: maybe don’t watch TV or cable news? Am wondering if I’m less freaked out because I have no exposure to US television and its misreporting and other agendas. (I’m in Spain for a few weeks. It is heavenly to be away.)
Best to you.
Hitless
@mapaghimagsik: I don’t think he’s encouraging people to give up. That’s not what he wrote.
If there’s any subtext, it’s that he would like some reason to be more optimistic.
Actually, it’s not even subtext….it’s explicit.
dogwood
@Spinoza is my Co-pilot:
You are not a troll, because you are explaining your concern in terms of facts on the ground. You recognize actual political reality. Hitless is concerned that the Democrats aren’t doing enough, or doing it right which is another issue. He/she ignores how power works in government in order to troll. Two different things.
Barbara
@amk: Maybe they can have an honest to God live duel.
Elizabelle
@mapaghimagsik: Laughing. Zing. Well done.
This needs to be a tagline. Best thing I’ve seen today.
? Martin
@The Moar You Know: Frum has been consistently critical of Trump for a long time now. He’s actually quite scathing as he approaches his critique not as a contrast to Obama or Clinton (as most liberal critics approach it) but as a contrast to the founding intent of our democracy or a violation of conservative principles. He’s able to cut deeper because he knows the reader doesn’t need to see him through a partisan lens. On TV he doesn’t look animated or angry, he looks defeated. He looks like a french citizen after Paris was occupied in WWII.
GregB
@amk:
Hey, the people wanted disruption!
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: AREA PILOT LOOKS FOR MORE FAVORABLE CONDITIONS
Elie
@Elizabelle:
Thank you! The chronic pessimism is not only demoralizing but what does it get you? What are you trying to do, those of you just rolling in cynicism and despair. Can’t you at least keep a little of it to yourselves? Should all of us just roll in a ball and give up? Sure, I understand the anger and frustration — but you have to stop it in terms of shitting on the morale we need to face this. We will not be able to do it with your constant doom saying.
schrodingers_cat
@Barbara: Well said.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
Sangria makes ones less angry-a.
;)
Vhh
@Bruce K: I assume you mean Henry VIII’s Cromwell, who was executed by beheading, and not his later relative Oliver Cromwell, who became the hated dictator of England. Years after he died a natural death, his body was exhumed and ritually decapitated.
jacy
@Spinoza is my Co-pilot:
The only problem I see with “doom and gloom” is the expectation that what everyone is doing right now is what they are always going to be doing. Yes, the Republicans are not interested in prosecuting Trump. Right now. I believe that will change. The media has a near-terminal case of “bothsiderism.” Right now. But one thing that the media is good at doing is stampeding in whatever direction the wind blows. Everything looks hopeless until it doesn’t. Republicans are spineless and craven until they’re not. Things will change, because the present course is, I believe, untenable. And it’s untenable because Trump is crazy. I’m not predicting what will happen, because you can’t predict crazy. But stating that nothing is going to change because nothing is changing right this minute is the thing I can’t get behind. Nobody knows what the catalyst will be, so we just keep plugging away, adding weight to our side of the seesaw.
dogwood
@Elie:
Believing that we are in real trouble and it is going to get much worse before it gets better isn’t synonymous with giving up.
GregB
Nothing lasts forever but the earth and stars.
-Kansas
Patricia Kayden
@Spinoza is my Co-pilot: Our only hope may be us in the sense that we have to continue to put pressure on our politicians to do the right thing. Show up at town hall meetings. Make calls to our Senators and Representatives. Protest in the streets. #Resist. Democrats in Congress are doing their best also, in my opinion.
Elizabelle
@Elie: Ah, thank you. And I have tears in my eyes from laughing at comment 231.
I am memorizing the phrasing. That can be the all purpose response to the Eeyores and Nervous Nellies among us.
Lighten up, Francis. It’s better than a pie filter.
dww44
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Both O’Donnell and Maddow are prone to this over gushing of their NBC co-workers. In her case she is forever fawning over Andrea Mitchell, who’s not nearly as undeserving of approbation as is Brokaw. That’s one of the things that I like about Chris Hayes, he doesn’t gush over his fellow media personalities/journalists.
Elizabelle
@dogwood: Yeah, that’s very true. It’s a marathon, and it will be hard. All the more reason to pace ourselves, and take care of ourselves and each other.
gene108
It took a lot of public pressure to convene the 9/11 Commission and that was a tragedy that was not designed to help any specific Party or Candidate.
Getting an honest investigation of Trump-Russia is going to take exponentially more.
Hitless
@dogwood:
My understanding is that trolls want to antagonize and get a response. Im just despondently angry…and it was a mistake to share that in a setting in which it would piss off people.
If a frontpager or mod would be willing to delete my comments, I’d be in their debt.
schrodingers_cat
@GregB: Even the earth and stars don’t last forever, they just have a longer life span compared to us puny humans.
raven
@dww44: I like Rachel but her fawning over Greta was wayyyyy too much.
In other news, I-85 in Atlanta is going to open Monday, a full month ahead of schedule. Guess who is paying the bulk of the cost for rendeck ass Georgia?
Kay
@Adam L Silverman:
How would telling us the possible motive compromise the investigation? Just in general terms? That’s the check we have, Adam. How can I tell if the GOP is doing the bidding of the Russians if I don’t know what the Russians want?
They want to discredit the US- WHY? For what purpose? This idea that they would put all this effort into just general disorder and not have some goal in mind seems odd to me. WHICH Trump policy objectives are they backing? WHAT Clinton policy objectives did they want to block? I found Comey’s testimony infuriating. WTF does this even mean?
Personally? Or did he “hate” her for her plans and/or policy? I don’t know Adam, what am I supposed to do with this information, as a voter? Can they give us a clue here?
How does it make sense to say this is about Putin hating Clinton when we just found out they interfered in France? He “hates” Macron too?
Bill Arnold
@mapaghimagsik:
Yep, stand back a bit mentally and stay aware of emotional manipulation.
satby
I’m concerned we haven’t heard from greennotGreen or her family, I’m sure I’m not the only one.
schrodingers_cat
@dogwood: What makes you think that people calling out doom and gloomers don’t realize that.
germy
@GregB: Nothing lasts forever but the earth and stars.
-Kansas
schrodingers_cat
@satby: After the tasteless blog post title about lying on a grave, they may have decided to take a break from the jackals.
satby
@schrodingers_cat: yeah, that was tone deaf, and I love that song.
The Lodger
@Adam L Silverman: I think your sources got it right. That memo was not written in a hurry (unlike just about all of the released material coming out of the T admin) and could be used as is at any time regardless of circumstances. I believe they’ve had the memo ready for a long time and pulled it out of the drawer when they wanted to use it.
Chris
@Ian G.:
There aren’t.
I’ve been beating on this drum for some time, but one thing that became absolutely mainstream in the right wing blogosphere in the last eight years (and wasn’t a thing before 2008) is the widespread contempt for the concept of democracy. Hang around any place long enough and you’ll inevitably get the conversation about how X, Y, and Z demographics shouldn’t be allowed to vote – children born to illegal immigrants; people who don’t pay income taxes; dual citizens; Americans living abroad; women; and, for the sci-fi inclined, people who didn’t serve in the military. The view that we erred terribly when we made suffrage universal is absolutely mainstream in the GOP (voter base, not just political operators) and they’re absolutely open that it’s because those demographics are liberals (though justified with tracts about how we’re irresponsible and hate America) that they think they’re entitled to suppress their votes.
“Voter fraud” and “we’re a republic not a democracy” are just the publicly acceptable face of that phenomenon.
That’s why electoral tricks from the GOP are more dangerous now than they ever were before. Yes, one party has absolutely rejected liberal democracy at all levels, and are driving full speed towards something between oligarchy and herrenvolk democracy.
LurkerNoLonger
@jacy: I agree with all of this. It’s been less than 24 hours since Trump made himself look guilty as fuck. Let’s see where it goes from here.
satby
@satby: but, I am concerned that they’re busy with other things, not worrying about keeping up with us.
dww44
@? Martin: Good description and aptly worded of what I’ve been observing of Frum. Thanks.
Elie
I truly believe that the “wobble” of this regime is getting worse and worse — by their own hand — Trump and his incompetent, sycophantic minions. Their incompetence is our biggest opportunity as they seem unable to stop hurting themselves. The details of all that is afoot cannot be managed the way they are doing it and with the tools they have: poor staffing with inexperienced and sycophantic buffoons. Trump’s highest ranked staff are mediocre at best. This includes Sessions, Tillerson, Bannon (yes, he is undercover but still around), and Ivanka and Jared are laughingstock lightweights. They are all drowning right along with the old man. The GOP Congress support will unravel as this continues. That said, our path ahead will be fraught with turmoil and disasters. It still needs to be undertaken, but the fix will break us for a while, affecting our economy, markets and governance. Trump has dismembered any likelihood for passing any more of his agenda. The only topic, he has now guaranteed, will be Russia and the corruption of his administration. He has no power to pass anything through the Senate. We MUST get control of the House in 2018….
mapaghimagsik
@Bill Arnold: yeah, it’s hard sometimes. Miss are contagious, so I try to spread good diseases. I’m not always successful.
Gelfling 545
@JMG: Huh. Doesn’t methane come from decomposing manure? So maybe McCain does know.
Mike in DC
Things are far from hopeless. That said, having some indictments issued before any new director even has the opportunity to mess with the investigation would be a big boost. Also, public indictments would massively shift the calculations of the GOP caucus.
ruckus
@? ?? Goku ? ?:
They won’t release the RNC emails because if they do we’d be able to see what’s in them. And I’d bet they Really, Really don’t want that. Really. Don’t. Want.
Jeffro
@Kay:
I’m sure Adam will respond, but…’general disorder’ IS a main objective here. Anything that weakens us. Anything that might give them a shot at lifting sanctions. Anything that makes democracy look like a fool’s errand.
Chris
@The Moar You Know:
Who is the state of the art? I’m curious, as I know little to nothing about this.
dogwood
@jacy:
Exactly right. You can be pessimistic about what Republicans can do domestically and overseas in the next few years, but that doesn’t equate to being pessimistic about the long term fate of the country. You keep fighting a losing battle until it becomes winnable. You pick your battles in order to preserve your own sanity and stamina.
Elizabelle
@satby: Yeah, I have noticed that too. Think of greennotGreen and her beautiful room several times each hour. I hope she is comfortable, and still with us.
Another reason for not falling prey to the “we’re all doomed” crap here. We have agency, people. Fight the good fight. To the last. greennotGreen is showing us how.
Tazj
@germy: A truly dickish move on 45’s part. He couldn’t possibly have gotten in touch with Comey to tell him he was fired before Comey saw it on television. He not only wanted to fire him but to humiliate him, but that’s who he is.
schrodingers_cat
@Chris: We know what they want, they cannot be allowed to succeed. Right now they control all the levers of power in DC so its going to be far from easy.
Adam L Silverman
@Kay: Putin has four objectives, I’ve written about them here several times on the front page an in comments: 1) Roll back the post Cold War order by 2) Causing fragmentation within NATO, the EU, and the US to push NATO and the EU back away from where Putin believes Russia’s historic sphere of influence and near abroad are, by 3) making liberal democracy, as opposed to what he calls he’s doing – managed democracy, look feeble, unresponsive, bad, a poor choice, and not actually different than managed democracy, largely by trying to make its exemplar, the US, look bad, in order to 4) reestablish what he believes are Russia’s historic sphere of influence and near abroad, in order to allow Russia to reemerge in what he believes is its due and proper great power status and role, and to consolidate power in order to Maidan proof/coup proof himself.
What Comey and Clapper and Rogers have all stated, in open testimony, is that in addition to the above goals, Putin had a particular and specific animus towards Clinton because 1) she had heavily criticized the elections that brought him back into the Russian presidency and 2) because he feared that if she was elected President she would be able to keep him from achieving the adjectives I delineated in the first paragraph. This is not news. It has been testified to in open session in both chambers of Congress. Significant portions of it were in the unclassified for release US IC report on Russian interference into the US elections of 2016 that I’ve linked to several times.
Uncle Cosmo
@GregB: “…but the earth and sky.” Otherwise it wouldn’t rhyme with “buy.” /lyrics pedant
liberal
@Kay:
[Deleted cuz AS wrote reply above]
SatanicPanic
@Elie: I get what you’re saying here and will personally try to tone it down because I’m out there too trying to get things done. It’s just been a hard 24 hours.
ChrisB
What an appropriate title for this thread. Did anyone just see Putin in a hockey uniform being asked about Comey in film shown on MSNBC? My god, they must be roaring in the aisles at the Kremlin.
Laughing stock, indeed.
And I thought Bush was bad!
Jeffro
@Chris:
And you’re absolutely right: the GOP has spun nominally small-d democratic outcomes (governmental, like the ACA and equal rights for LGBTQ citizens; and cultural shifts as well) as things that didn’t have to happen and are bad for the country. Well, they’re mostly bad for rich folks, and/or people who were relying on white (esp male) privilege to get by.
It’s also why they were so ripe for Russian-fueled propaganda: Putin feels the same way about democracy. As do the Mercers and Kochs.
Chris
@Elizabelle:
“Obscurantisme.” I didn’t actually know it was a word in English. Generally used as a pejorative reference to the pre-Enlightenment mindset and to the days of religious and “ancien régime” domination.
schrodingers_cat
@ChrisB: He was, T is worse.
Elizabelle
@Chris: Good post. I’ve noticed all the “we’re a republic” talk too.
Jeebus. These people destroy all sorts of good concepts to apply their own twisted thinking to them.
Liberty. Freedom. And they’ve turned that to selfishness.
We have to beat them back into their holes. Back under those rocks. Not give them more real estate at the New York Times [;-)] and mainstream/normalize them.
GregB
@Uncle Cosmo:
Thanks!
Jeffro
@Kay: @Adam L Silverman: Wanted to add that I can’t recommend Garry Kasparov’s “WINTER IS COMING: Why Vladimir Putin and the Enemies of the Free World Must Be Stopped” highly enough. (Adam, move it to the top of your reading pile!)
dogwood
@ChrisB:
Bush was bad, but he was normal. This president is beyond bad, and is not a normal human being on any level.
Elie
@dogwood:
Oh I get that — and have no problems with describing the trouble. I have problems with the fatalistic conclusion that we will fail to reverse things — not that we will have unbelievable almost troubles. We can see that clearly. Look, like some of the Civil War generals who had decimated armies scheduled to face each other anyway… Do they tell their soldiers that things are hopeless so give it your best effort but its probably gonna fail? C’mon. This is the belly of the beast and we have the tools we have — our brains and our intent and commitment to fix our situation. Anything that weakens our tools weakens our chances and what does the cynicism buy you anyway? What is the goal?
schrodingers_cat
@Elie: Thank You. Hitler looked invincible in 1942. The sun was never supposed to set on the British Empire. Nothing lasts forever, nothing. Past is not an accurate predictor of the future. Life is not a linear regression.
Baud
@Elie:
And Baud!
Elie
@SatanicPanic:
Man, I know its not easy. For me either… I have to try to envision what it will feel and look like to see the changes in the right direction — I have to do that or all I have is despair which de-activates motivation to participate.
Elie
@Baud:
YESSSS! Baud!
Elizabelle
@Baud: And Baud. Damn sure.
Gotta get something to eat. Will catch up with y’all soon. Maybe someone else will get fired while I’m out.
Fair Economist
@Bruce K:
Rule the country for a decade and then die of natural causes, albeit a bit young? Eh, not what I’d hope for.
Chris
@Elizabelle:
“We’re a republic not a democracy” is the GOP version of Putin’s “we’re a managed democracy” justification. It’s the justification for every move towards autocracy and away from accountability to the public.
jl
@Baud: A Baud administration will look like the height of decorum and strict protocol after the Trump mess. Which tells us what a mess we are in.
SiubhanDuinne
@hitless:
There’s the tell, right there.
Begone, troll.
Mnemosyne
@hitless:
Poor conservative trolls can’t manage to fix their language even when pretending to be concerned liberals. Sad!
SatanicPanic
@Elie: That’s fair. I’ll be back up and fighting in a day or two myself. But man does it look bleak. I mean, yeah, we’ve survived some bad times in this country, but I didn’t want to have to live through them! This “I’m going to be a hero” euphoria wears off faster than I thought. I’m just being real. Not giving up though!
Baud
@jl: Yep. Random farting noises don’t seem so bad now, do they?
Corner Stone
@Tazj:
Trump is a coward. And for all his bluster IMO he loathes personal confrontation. He didn’t have the guts to tell Comey personally that he was firing him because he knew Comey would tell him that his firing changes nothing. Trump much preferred to have his personal manservant deliver the letter far away from him. The humiliation was probably a very removed side benefit, but a benefit nonetheless.
schrodingers_cat
@Fair Economist: Cromwell, the flunky of the fat king with many wives not the ruler of England.
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: I sent my email again, did you get it?
dww44
Off-topic but one more good reason for us pro democracy Americans to fight. This just got posted over at TPM by Josh Marshall:
jacy
@satby:
Things may be nearing resolution. When they do we will be, rightly, an afterthought. We just have to keep sending out good energy and hope that eases things.
Corner Stone
@Baud:
My hero!
I smell a Top 5 President on the horizon.
TenguPhule
@tobie:
No. The Republic is long dead.
We are never going to recover as a nation from 1/20/17.
No matter how this one turns out, the aftermath is going to be really really bad.
Millions of Republicans support treason, corruption, mass murder of their fellow citizens and a huge middle finger to decency and rule of law.
And the Democrats now know this is true.
rikyrah
@Jeffro:
I think it rocks.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
Hey, I’m supposed to be the resident worst case scenario poster here!
You’re supposed to be the one telling me I’m too negative.
Brachiator
@Corner Stone:
Very, very true. This may also make Trump unpredictable and dangerous. Cowards will do anything to save themselves when their shitty little feints no longer work.
But that’s the point. Trump truly loves the power of the presidency. And one of those powers is that, like a medieval monarch, he doesn’t have to have the guts to do anything personally. Here’s a man who gets off on having a button to press that will have a can of coke delivered to him in the Oval Office. Being able to have loyal flunkies deliver a “You’re Fired” message probably curls Trump’s toes.
Maybe. Trump is totally ignorant of law and government process. He might think that his problems are all solved once he fires Comey and replaces him with someone more loyal. And, for now, Trump also has the Congressional Republicans running interference for him.
Archon
@TenguPhule: Anyone who believes a political party this far down the rabbit hole as todays Republicans won’t lead to real political violence is fooling themselves, but I do think the majority of America genuinely believes in principles of Democracy, pluralism, and the rule of law. It might be a smaller majority then we had previously believed but I firmly believe it’s most Americans.
We are going to have to fight for those principles, harder then we could have ever imagined even six months ago but I do think America will come out of this ok.
Elie
@SatanicPanic:
Not giving up is all any of us can ask — or do, for that matter. We don’t yet have the specifics of where we can act but we will all do what we can whether its marching or trying to put up good candidates for local and state offices. We have to promote faith in what governance should be. When we are negative, alls we are doing is giving power to the thing we say we are against.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
What happened to the reporter who was busted down in WV? Anyone know what’s going on with him?
Adam L Silverman
@dww44: Yep, TASS. From the reporting I’ve seen they were credentialed as part of the Foreign Ministry’s delegation.
jacy
@TenguPhule:
This has always been true, we just didn’t know it as clearly as we do know. There are still more of us than them.
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle:
Support doesn’t matter when its the minority party demanding it. The Republicans will not allow an investigation at any cost.
The Republicans have committed Treason. Perhaps this hasn’t really sunken in yet for people even as they cry it out. The GOP crossed the line of No Return and now their survival is wedded to Trump’s, for better or worse. Any further crimes they commit or laws they break now are nothing compared to what they’ve already done.
Remember, we can only hang them once. So they have every incentive to do anything they can to keep that rope away.
Elie
@TenguPhule:
You have an interesting persona. You seem actually jolly at the prospect of the continued loss of our republic. You should think about that a bit. I tell you what, I see that jolliness and I am un-inclined to take anything you say seriously. You are trolling as an avocation — something you like to do — to disrupt and make less to make yourself feel good about yourself. Like those 4Chan trolls — the end in itself is the trolling — the outcome (or real values) is relatively unimportant. Its the power of disruption and destruction…
Adam L Silverman
@dww44: And remember that Kislyak is the senior Russian Intel handler in DC.
TenguPhule
@jacy:
Only until they start doing their best to correct that. And they will. At this point, what do they have to lose?
Corner Stone
I know someone mentioned it upthread and got poo-pood for it, but I have to agree with the statement. There is zero reason to vote to confirm any of Trump’s nominees. There has always been zero reason to do so and there remains zero reasons to ever do so.
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman:
Chuck Todd almost peed himself that only TASS was in the room. Maybe little indignities like that are the way to get the media stirred up enough to hound the WH about things.
A Ghost to Most
@Corner Stone: Agree; not another fucking inch.
Bruce K
Mea culpa. I got my Cromwells crossed up.
jacy
@Brachiator:
I honestly don’t think Trump loves the power of the presidency, because it’s not at all how he imagined it. Hence his constant, inchoate rage. He’s not trying to be powerful, he’s trying to protect his fragile ego. This makes him sloppy, and getting sloppier by the minute. I think he absolutely hates being president, and if there was a way for him to get out of it, he would. Narcissists are by nature passive/aggressive. They are bullies and they will bully as long as they can get away with it. When they can’t, they remove themselves from the situation. What we are seeing in real time is a narcissist who is backed into a corner and can’t remove himself from a situation that is stressing his ego to the breaking point. He will continue to lash out in increasingly nonsensical and destructive ways until he creates a situation where he can no longer be protected by the people around him.
El Caganer
I guess the main reason I haven’t pushed the panic button and started looking to emigrate to the Old Country is because this administration is so incompetent. Greedy, evil, vindictive – yes; competent – no, About the only Republican in DC who seems to me to be able to find his ass without using both hands and a GPS is McConnell, and he can only do so much to save the rest of them.
Ian G.
@TenguPhule:
“Never going to recover”? Look, I think alarm at this moment is extremely warranted, and I don’t think it’s hyperbole to suggest we’re in Erdogan/Hugo Chavez territory, but look at Chile: once the Pinochet coup was complete, they were rounding up and murdering opponents of the regime by the hundreds within days. That country ended up with a extremely intelligent, driven, and fearless tyrant who ran an extremely tight dictatorial ship for 17 year. And CHILE RECOVERED. It’s Latin America’s least corrupt, most efficient democracy. It even has single-payer healthcare, for Pete’s sake. The president is a female socialist atheist.
In contrast, we have a pathetic coddled TV star whose mental health is in a free-fall and may not last another 6 months in office who has accomplished jack squat in his time in office. It’s a complete farce compared to the Chile tragedy.
We will get through this.
Brachiator
@dww44:
WTF?
Chris
@jacy:
He probably thought once he became president, everyone would respect him and treat him like a king. Why he’d think that when his own rise started precisely with him not behaving that way towards the previous president…
jacy
@TenguPhule:
They always lose in the end. That’s why we’re still here.
jl
@Ian G.: Read up on what happened in Hungary. I think that is a better parallel.
JanieM
@jacy:
This.
TenguPhule
@Elie:
Oh boy do you not know me or what.
I’m horrified. But that’s because I’m not just thinking about this crisis, but what it means for the years and decades ahead. (assuming we survive that long). Six months ago our nation was stable and relatively close to the peak of its power with the glimmer of a golden age on the horizon.
Now, we face the complete destruction of a union that lasted over 200 years. A world where neighbors can’t trust each other, where we judge by race as well as political denomination and the rule of men, not laws.
? Martin
@Corner Stone: That’s more than a little indignity to them – that’s their livelihood being threatened. Say what you will about how the press corp actually operate, they actually do believe they are performing a vital service to the democracy, and excluding them in favor of a foreign service will incense them.
That was a big mistake by the WH.
Corner Stone
@Bruce K:
Is that a polite euphemism for testicular torsion?
liberal
@schrodingers_cat: Of course. The real question is to what extent we can tie it around their necks.
dogwood
@Elie:
One of the things that has saved me over the last few months was working on a local school bond election to build a new high school. The current main building of the campus dates back to 1927. This is a state that requires 67% to pass a levy, and it was the 4th try in 15 years. It always gets a solid majority, but that ain’t good enough here. Anyway, this time it passed with 78%. We were very strategic in how we handled the tp/freedom caucus crowd who have been with us since Reagan. It was all very satisfying.
Kay
This is the part I love. They can’t control all the actors in this drama. Trump thinks he’s all-powerful but he’s gotta be losing sleep over the elements he can’t control and there are a LOT of them.
This isn’t like screwing over the owner of The Paint Spot. He could really reap the whirlwind.
liberal
@TenguPhule:
Uh…there was a noticeable gap there in the 1860s.
El Caganer
@Corner Stone: Yo, you can bite my Oliver!
TenguPhule
@Ian G.:
40% of Chile’s population wasn’t brainwashed by 30 years of FOX to the point of complete insanity. It’s not the dictator that’s going to be the hardest part to stop, its the ever changing slime under him that looked into the heart of fascism and decided to jump in. The lack of centralized organization is going to make things harder to stop, not Chile, but Iraq is where you should be looking at.
El Caganer
@Kay: I’m not at all sure I want to go to Vladimir Putin for Constitutional interpretation.
Elie
@TenguPhule:
Okay — THIS is a comment I can appreciate. I apologize if I miss-judged you and your intentions. I fight to have meaning in my life and this horrible situation impacts my life and those I love significantly.
We have had if pretty easy in this country. We are going to have to fight for what we believe in and we have to talk about that vision of what we want over and over rather than the giving power to the opposite by only emphasizing its success — You cannot sustain the energy and creativity to succeed by giving your power to what you hate, right?
Miss Bianca
@Elizabelle: I just keep having to say, “you cannot make this shit up”.
Kay
@TenguPhule:
I always thought it was pretty grim. I’m shallow so I get distracted but my basic feeling since the election was and is “this is very bad”.
It’s the worst I’ve seen. The Bush Administration told huge lies but they had plausible-sounding rationales. These people don’t even bother. Trump still lies every day. If anything he’s ramped it up.
TenguPhule
@liberal: Yeah. And this time they’ve learned from their mistakes last time.
Gex
@Patricia Kayden: It should be noted that our side will get chastized for being shrill too, so Dems have a fine line to walk when they put on a full court press in the media. I’d hazard to guess that the tone that hitless wants is the exact tone that will alienate all the folks that the Dems are currently trying to “win over”.
jacy
@TenguPhule:
This is the point when my significant other looks at me and says, “You’ve made up your mind.” And then he stops talking, because he feels I’m not wanting either reassurance or discussion, I’m just wanting to feel bad. At least for me, that tactic had helped me to realize when I’m wallowing instead of doing something, whether that something is a positive step to make things better or just chilling out and having a beer or playing with the kids or the dogs…..
No Drought No More
Nikita Khruschez 1956: “We will bury you”.
Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov 2017: “Was he fired? You’re kidding”?
Kay
So can’t Comey be called to testify? Why not? Obviously the Trump Team will delay and deny and avoid for as long as they possibly can. If Comey’s on the up and up and he’s fired can’t he tell us something about what’s going on?
dogwood
@Gex:
I’ve been impressed with the clips I’ve seen of most democrats so far. People like Schiff, Klobochar, and Casey. They are very firm, and very calm. Hard to believe that won’t become increasingly appealing to many voters as the WH and Republicans keep spinning and rartching up the fear and nonsense on a daily basis.
TenguPhule
@Elie:
I understand. But I’ve noticed this about the “buck up let’s fight” mentality, it assumes “And they lived happily ever after.” Not consciously, but its there in the assumption that if we “win” this time, the hardest part is over and rest just cleanup.
Getting rid of Trump and Pence and Ryan and the GOP line of succession as Russian traitors is the easy part compared to what happens next. And I fear too many people are shying away from the implications because they are literally almost unthinkable.
To strip away all pretensions of good faith, cooperation and negotiation between representatives and states. Barring a miracle, I truly do not see things ending well for any of us. At best our nation is going to come out of this significantly weakened.
At worst….well, I’ve had constant nightly nightmares since 11/8/16 for a reason.
Elie
@Kay:
Yes — all you say but it isn’t working for him/them! You must see that. It.Is.Not.Working. Do we have the final thing that is gonna happen to take this to the next level yet? No. This is a brand new experience so our political system is trying to grok an alien life form. We’ve had key parts of the system step up — the judiciary for one — but I also think that the media has as well. I can easily find detailed information on what is happening and ways to counter it. Our Democrats are fighting this, but again, they, like all of us have to also take stock and examine how to tackle this unfamiliar situation. We have State AGs and other departments fighting this thing…Social organizations and those such as the ACLU are heavily involved and getting more so. The polls are reflecting an American public becoming more aware — even as Trump’s base deny reality and hang onto their loyalty — at least that is what they say. The full throated opposition will build as the path becomes more clear. This is new territory and we are barely 100 days in. Have some faith…. You and we all need that to lubricate our creativity and dedication…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Warner said “we” have invited him to testify. I double-checked the pronoun
SatanicPanic
@TenguPhule: OK, I’m trying to be polite here, but seriously man,
What do you think fascist dictatorships do? Christ man, I know you’re upset, but you’re not thinking clearly here.
Betty Cracker
@jacy: That rings true to me.
@Chris: In one of the interviews Trump gave recently, he expressed surprise that media coverage remained critical after the election. He honestly expected deference and is angry he’s not getting it. At first, I wondered how a 70-year-old man could possibly believe that — I mean, didn’t he read critical coverage of previous presidents? But that’s not how a narcissist thinks, I guess. He’s the star of the show, and the rest of us are extras.
Pie filter maintenance crew
FYI : pie filter has been updated to let you add/remove people by just typing in the comment #.
this makes it very easy to deal with complex nyms.
v7.1.0
http://ok-cleek.com/blogs/?page_id=19041
Ian G.
@jl:
Perhaps. But Hungary’s experience with democracy and the rule of law goes back less than 3 decades. Chile’s was much more established, like ours.
@TenguPhule:
Really? I think you might be unpleasantly surprised at Pinochet’s approval rating in that country, even today. It may be higher than Trump’s right now.
And we have absolutely nothing in common with Iraq. Saying we’re going to turn into Iraq is, IMHO, as absurd as Bill Kristol telling us that removing Saddam Hussein would turn Iraq into us.
Look, as I said, I’m very concerned, but we must have belief that we can outlast this pathetic person in the White House, otherwise, what’s the point?
Central Texas
@MattF:
Yeah could be. But first I want to hear what deep insights Mr. Drum has when they confirm Director Giuliani.
Elie
@TenguPhule:
All of what you say is possible but if you were just told that you had a very severe illness that you could succumb to but also be cured, what would you focus on to survive? All the things that could go wrong? Sure, you would monitor your response and your status to pick up problems early, but would you sit there and dwell on what your death would be like? Research in medicine has underscored the need for positive imaging to help patients recover from severe illness. Also, you are better able to develop alternatives when you are looking for positive outcomes rather than focusing on failure and despair. Also, its one thing to hold your view and keep it to yourself — another to keep pouring that toxic energy on other people. Most of all, on yourself. You are feeding what you despise.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
By communicating the events through the sound of one hand clapping.
schrodingers_cat
@Ian G.: No we must go on with the premise that all is lost. Tear our hair and either cry in frustration or fantasize about an apocalyptic dissolution of society.
/end snark.
Kay
@Elie:
I’m okay. You shouldn’t think I’m despairing or anything.
I’m probably over-confident in my ability to survive trying times :)
It’s funny who you turn to. My eldest son is just a pessimistic person. He was born like this. I find myself talking to him about it more than my other kids because he’s like “well, no one ever promised it wouldn’t collapse!” The, um, NATION STATE is what he means. You don’t have to reassure him because he assumed NOTHING good would come from this right from the get-go :)
Chris
@No Drought No More:
You’ve got to love the fact that they feel perfectly safe just trolling the entire country on national television. I mean, one can hardly be angry at them – none of them are under any particular obligation to America.
@Betty Cracker:
It’s not how a one percenter who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and never lived any other way thinks, either.
jacy
@TenguPhule:
After Bush, we got Obama. Who’s not to say that after Trump we get something better? Notice I’m not saying we will, but a course correction could go the opposite way.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic:
Rule by force and threat of force, by making sure to eliminate any competent points of resistance, spy on their enemies, allies and everyone else, make examples of people to keep the public afraid of standing out, and generally get most people to cooperate because when all’s said and done, they still need to live day to day.
That’s a little bit different from convincing almost half of the population that the other half are not real citizens and don’t deserve to ever come into power or even be allowed to vote or exist. Then you’re getting into Pol Pot territory.
germy
Baud
@jacy:
I promise you, all the doom and gloomers will then complain about how that person sucks.
Kay
@Elie:
I have to be careful. I was talking about this last night with my husband and I could feel we were upsetting our 8th grader. He loves to talk and he asked us to be quiet so he could do his homework- completely out of character. It worries him when we’re agitated.
Cacti
@Ian G.:
No disrespect intended to Chile, but the United States has a lot farther to fall. And once super powers fall, they never regain the top of the mountain and they rarely emerge as something better than before.
jacy
@Betty Cracker:
I have spent nearly three years in weekly therapy dealing with narcissistic fallout — once you understand how they work, it all makes sense. And they all work exactly the same. They don’t live in the world the rest of us do, where actions have consequences, but one in which everything is filtered by the way it makes them feel. Not what is smart or strategic. And the more stressed they are, the less strategic they get until it’s just all crazy all the time.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: the other thing is… to get back into the White House, not only did Dems need Bush to get so bad, but for Obama to be so good. Just in terms of retail politics. I hope there’s somebody out there
TenguPhule
@Ian G.:
Lots of weapons, lots of people being conditioned that the law has no teeth for a certain class of people.
A government that is coming perilously close to destroying its own reliable workforce by demanding more work for less pay by less people.
We don’t have Baksheesh in the USA. Yet.
If and when we do, we will be Iraq.
? Martin
@Kay: I wonder if our new FBI director will understand idiomatic english, or will only use translated Russian idioms.
jacy
@Kay:
That’s funny — my eldest said to me yesterday, “My life became a lot simpler when I accepted the fact that absolutely nothing makes sense.”
SatanicPanic
@TenguPhule: OK let me try a different tack here- do you think there was a meaningful difference between television in 1970s Chile and Fox News? That their TV stations were just presenting the news in some unbiased fashion? Or do you think they were loudly proclaiming how great Pinochet was and how bad his opponents were?
Now imagine that backed up with all of the things you mentioned- disappearings, violence against protesters, and explain to me how we’re in a worse situation.
The Moar You Know
@Ian G.: His point is, I think, a little deeper. Can the nation recover as a functional entity? Of course.
Will I, personally, ever recover from the knowledge that most of my neighbors and at least one nuclear family member voted for a guy knowing that the odds were 100% that guy would be putting my wife, my brother, my sister-in-law out of work?
No, no more so than many poor Chilean women will ever recover from knowing the army troop or policeman they passed in the street may have personally participated in, and certainly approved of, the murders of their loved ones.
You don’t recover from that and neither does a society.
TenguPhule
@satby:
I’m willing to match any bet in beer that not one R on the SC or in the house or senate will actually turn on Trump.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Probably not as good as Obama. But I don’t know if that’s necessary. She-devil Hillary, despite all the media attacks and Comey, won the popular vote. I’d imagine the next nominee will be somewhere in between in terms of retail politics.
Elie
Look — we are all impatient for a clear solution to this. Our system, however, is not set up for speed. We don’t have the structure for a dictatorship. Power is diffuse and the system is set up to make direct, overt display of that power difficult without the consent of the various components — the congress, the judiciary, media, military and multiple agencies. These organs are all capable of their own power and influence actions also.
While Nixon is frequently cited as being most like this situation, I really don’t think that the similarities are that close. The sheer insanity of Trump’s behavior and the lack of competence in his regime are unprecedented. I think it is alarming not only to us, but to the formal government. Most realize that the “fix” is not going to be easy or clean and the downstream impacts could be quite serious not only to our internal wellbeing, but our standing in the world. We will have to solve it however. I think its becoming clear even to the GOP that while they may dearly want power, that this path will lead to ruin that will take them and our country to ruin… That is not what they want. Again, this is unprecedented and our impatience for a solution needs to be tempered with that awareness. Also, just because we don’t have a snap fix, doesn’t mean we won’t be able to fix it — once we figure out how….
mapaghimagsik
@Baud: when you were running, I complained about you incessantly.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
I’m still waiting for you to explain how small bands of insurgents conquer Los Angeles. Your theories last time were, um, not grounded in reality.
TenguPhule
@Baud: Same problem. Electoral College.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Its similar to those posts where people would complain that we are the worst country in the history of forever. When mclaren used to come and lecture us about how depraved the United States is/was.
So now things are so bad, that they have to be the worstest in all recorded history and things are never going to get better, its the liberal/leftie version of USA #1.
Of course, nothing Democrats do ever matters or will matter.
? Martin
@Kay: We have the same problem going on. My daughter is 10th grade, and her anxiety is steadily getting worse. She’s got trans friends and undocumented friends. We’re California liberals, so we’re as deep in the environmental concern as you can get. And she’s going to emerge as an adult in a world shaped by Trump.
Long term I’m actually optimistic. The cultural forces that gave rise to Trump are in decline and long have been. They are concentrating power because they have no choice. They are like North Korea – starved of assets, they make up for it by intensity and risk. But that only goes so far. Eventually it collapses. And when it does collapse the pendulum will swing just as hard the other way. That’s really her future, but despite my optimism, she can see for herself what’s going on, how stressed her friends are.
SiubhanDuinne
@jacy:
Reminds me of the first sentence of Sabatini’s novel Scaramouche: “He was born with a gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad.”
sigaba
@? Martin: ни пуха ни пера!
@Elie:
Unless you’re a crook, or rich, in which case speed and despatch are handsomely rewarded.
Baud
@TenguPhule: I get that, but in terms of number of voters in swing states, Hillary barely lost the electoral college.
jacy
@Baud:
Glad to see you are getting out ahead of the expectations game for your eventual triumph.
jayjaybear
@liberal: The whole point of the Civil War was that the Union did not recognize the secessions, therefore we have ALWAYS been one country with several political divisions in rebellion for a while.
Brachiator
@jacy:
People have been offering variations of this since the moment Trump announced that he was running for president, and have been consistently wrong.
He clearly gets off on the cheap displays of power. He loves to sign executive orders, even if they are blocked. He has apparently authorized military strikes while entertaining guests at Mar-a-Lago. He loves to run to his asinine pep rallies to bask in the adoration of his supporters. He invited all the Republicans to the White House while he chortled over fucking over millions of Americans with the passage of the health care plan he endorsed.
Trump has always loved being the center of attention, and as president he is the ultimate celebrity.
What do you mean by this? How would Trump “remove himself?” What, do you think he will resign? You wanna put some money on that?
That Trump might get so “stressed out” that he “removes himself” from the presidency is a provocative possibility. But might he also hang on for dear life, and pull down the government around his head, blaming everyone but himself?
Kay
@jacy:
He’s cute. He wears glasses and he squints ” is that.. BAD?” Yes- it’s very, very BAD :)
You know how some of them don’t have any defenses when they’re adolescents? He’s one of those. Like a sponge. I sort of envy how open he is.
Kay
We elected a President who had multiple violations on money laundering with virtually no discussion about it.
Now, come on. Something failed massively here and it wasn’t just 20,000 dopes in Michigan.
We elected a freaking gangster and no one even discussed it!
satby
@TenguPhule: Well, there are Republicans who don’t currently hold elected office. What you need is for a trickle of condemnation to become a flood; but even just a trickle of water can erode rock over a period of time.
JanieM
@Cacti:
This is a debate I’ve had with my son. I don’t particularly care if the US is at the top of the mountain (although I also do not want to live in a banana republic or a Russian satellite…).
Is the UK worse now than when it was the empire on which the sun never etc.?
schrodingers_cat
FPers please rescue my comment that was eated. I think its because I used the nym of a long banned troll.
Ian G.
@TenguPhule:
Um, we’re not any closer to being Democratic Kampuchea than we are to being Iraq. Are we perilously close to being Turkey or Venezuela? Perhaps, and it makes me nervous, but where on Earth are you getting this idea that 150 million people are about to be murdered by another 150 million?
The most ridiculously right-wing Trump sycophants I know are to a person a) old, and b) scared shitless of their own shadow. These people are going to run the death camps? You think a pathetic snowflake like Richard Spencer is going to be the next Jurgen Stroop?
jacy
@Brachiator:
If you look at what I said, it’s that he’s in a position he can’t remove himself from. That’s the trap. In the past, he’s always been able to walk away from any situation where he felt stress. Now he can’t. Do I think he’ll walk away? Hell no. In fact, if he were to be impeached, I think they would either have to drag him out screaming or have to fool him somehow.
As for his rallies and signing statements? That’s more his handlers trying to pacify his rage by soothing his ego. He doesn’t care about anything in the world but how he feels at any given moment. If he feels good, then things are good. If he feels bad, then someone has to pay until he feels better. There is nothing beyond that. That’s the extent of Donald Trump. The presidency sounded good, but in actuality it’s probably his absolute worst nightmare. Now he is constantly mocked, publicly, and there’s not a damn thing he can do about it.
Cacti
@JanieM:
Difficult to say, as the UK at present seems to be inching toward a divorce with Scotland and is in an existential crisis over its place in Europe and the world.
Brachiator
@Elie:
There’s a first time for everything. I don’t know that we have ever had a president like Trump before. But I also don’t know of too many times in history where a good portion of the citizens were so eager to throw aside all the checks and balances of American democracy.
Who is this formal government? Democrats oppose Trump, but have relatively little power. The Republicans who currently make up the majority are happy to run interference for Trump, because it suits their purposes. Trump has appointed one Supreme Court justice, and may get to appoint at least two others. And he has 120 federal judgeships to fill, a good chunk of these the blessing of Republican obstructionism.
Again, I don’t know if we have ever had it this bad at the federal level. I also think it useful for folks to read about Pappy O’Daniel, an empty sack radio showman who ran for governor of Texas in 1938.
Sound familiar? When he won, Pappy appointed his sad sack kids to lucrative government positions.
Pappy was incompetent and had problems getting his policies adopted, but was easily re-elected. Later, he even ran for the Senate and won, beating a young upstart named Lyndon Johnson.
I think we may survive Trump, but it may be a hard fought thing. He is a petty, vindictive schemer, and brings out the worst in his supporters who actually want to see people hurt and deprived of rights. These supporters also foolishly believe, for now, that they are immune to the follies that Trump may wreak on this nation.
The big problem is that it is not just Trump who hates democracy. The Republicans truly believe that they are the only legitimate party. And their money men, the Koch Brothers and others, think that democracy is defective precisely because it encourages diversity and a belief in the common good.
Seth Owen
@Elizabelle: This.
I’ve sent money. I’ve gone to two mass marches (for the first time in my 62-year-old life). Next week I’ll be protesting Trump when he arrives in New London to address the Coast Guard Academy. The fascists may win, but it will be over my dead body.
clay
@TenguPhule:
No. The Republic is long dead.
We are never going to recover as a nation from 4/12/1861.
No matter how this one turns out, the aftermath is going to be really really bad.
Millions of Democrats support treason, corruption, mass murder of their fellow citizens and a huge middle finger to decency and rule of law. And they took up arms against their own government.
…
Look, I’m not saying it’s not bad. But it has been worse, and it will get better.
Chris
@Brachiator:
This.
Yes, Trump is crazier than anyone we’ve had since before the Civil War, but then the rest of the government is more compliant than they’ve been at any point since… I can’t even remember when. So it evens out. And possibly then some.
Jeffro
@jacy:
“[Trump’s] going to die in jail” – pissed-off IC member.
“I first began taking large amounts of cash from Russian financiers back in 2002. I was broke and had nothing and nobody would loan to me. The idea was that they would buy my apartments for a lot of money, dirty money, and then eventually re-sell them for clean cash…” – DJT to DOJ investigators, July 2017
Corner Stone
Can someone please, for the love of God, prevent Neera Tanden from ever being on air or in front of a microphone ever again.
Jeffro
Hey mods, I think my comment just disappeared?
anyway, here’s why we’ll be fine…this is all coming out to the general public, very soon…
Archon
@Kay: Our system was setup to prevent people like Trump from becoming President so his election represents a MASSIVE social, political, and moral failing by the American people and it’s institutions. If there is any good to come out of this however is that it seems that people are finally woke to the negative forces and dark hearts in this country that we MUST fight against.
schrodingers_cat
@Corner Stone: What did she do?
Kay
@Archon:
I’m happy that he’s really unpopular. Republicans don’t talk about him. I went to Kiwanis for lunch and they carefully avoid Trumpster topics :)
There’s a NOTABLE lack of crowing around this President. It would be exhausting supporting him. He’s too much.
Chris
@Archon:
I love the fact that the electoral college system was set up precisely, in part, because the founding fathers thought a populist asshole appealing to people’s baser instincts could get elected if there wasn’t a check like that on the electoral system…
… and yet, twice in my lifetime now, precisely that kind of asshole has emerged; the people (i.e. the popular vote) weren’t fooled by him; the safeguard (i.e. the electoral college) was.
Time for that shit to go.
Elizabelle
Whoa. Going for a Friedman unit here.
? ?? Goku ? ?
@ChrisB: Trump first. Putin next
Kay
I’m looking forward to the next media cycle of “Trump hired someone high quality” and then the dashed hopes as the new FBI Director is revealed to be a horrible, crazy misfit he found under some rock.
Hope springs anew! THIS ONE is normal! Oh, well. Maybe the next one!
He’s bad at hiring. Just accept that. He’s also bad at firing. Hiring/firing he can’t do well.
? ?? Goku ? ?
@Chris:
The EC is stacked with partisan assholes in the first place. Any elector who wasn’t a fascist or an idiot should have voted against T. He is blantantly unfit for office. It was clear then and it’s clear now
Brachiator
Over 400 comments. Ho Lee Sheet…
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
I think you and jacy are talking past each other a bit. Trump likes the ego boost of the rallies and the fawning subordinates and the fact that he can make a hand gesture and have a can of Coke magically appear, but he hates the mockery and the protests and the questions from the press.
He wanted the fun parts of being president but can’t do any of the hard parts. He’s a pampered rich boy so he’s never had to do anything difficult in his whole life. He is going to have a major meltdown when he runs up against something that he can’t bargain or bully or threaten away.
His staff and family is going to insulate him as best they can because they know even better than the rest of us that he’s not going to be able to handle the truth that he’s in over his head, but when that day comes, watch out. A narcissist will do literally anything to escape responsibility for his actions.
I honestly can’t predict what Trump will do, except that it will be something that would never even occur to a normal person as an option, because that’s how narcissists operate.
clay
@Chris:
It’s a bitter irony that reforms that were intended to make the EC (somewhat) more democratic have resulted in it becoming perhaps worse. The move to elect the slate of electors by popular vote (within each state) was a good idea; certainly better than the “smokey back room” method. It just needs to be taken to the next logical progression, and have the electors be granted to the national popular vote winner.
Hoodie
@Cacti: Lately I’ve wondered whether Vlad and his stooges may have miscalculated. The French vote was a big goose egg for him and makes you think that nationalism based on the old boundaries may be supplanted by a new European nationalism anchored by France and Germany. They now have a young leader who is making some of the right noises, and brexit and Trump could strengthen his hand. The U.K. Is making itself irrelevant, and the next natural home for European finance is France who, by chance, now has an investment banker as its president. With Trump, Europe can no longer assume US protection and commonality of interests, and France and Germany are certainly capable of upping their defense posture. I’m not sure that’s what Vlad had in mind.
Mike in DC
Not to be a broken record, but indictments change the whole political landscape on this. Once you start charging and arresting people, the politics of obstruction lose all viability, and people start jumping on the bandwagon to avoid the giant wave that drowns all others.
schrodingers_cat
@? ?? Goku ? ?: Didn’t some BS bros on EC votefor Colin Powell? Not one R defected.
Mnemosyne
@Archon:
The Founders pictured a French Revolution-like uprising and Terror by the mob and put cool, conservative men in charge of the levers of power to prevent the mob from taking control. The whole thing with John Adams and the Alien & Sedition Act was Adams looking at then-current events in France and saying, Holy fuck, we can’t let that happen here!
They never pictured what would happen if a gang of Robespierres grabbed the levers of power without needing a mob to clear the way for them first.
schrodingers_cat
@clay: If United States under T reneges its NATO responsibilities its not like Germany and France are going to invite Putin to walk all over them.
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: Adam S has said this many times but I think a parliamentary democracy is more robust. Even if we get rid of T we are still left with Pence, Ryan as the next in the line of succession. What we need really is for fresh elections to be called, unfortunately the Constitution does not have that safety valve.
Archon
@clay: An interesting question I deal with is if Trump had won the national vote, would I feel better or worse about our current situation?
Chris
@Hoodie:
Doesn’t even need to be a new European nationalism. Old-fashioned French, German, et al nationalism, directed against a foreign power hostile to their values and trying to fuck around in their elections, and a recognition that that makes them the enemy much more than each other, is plenty.
Chris
@Mnemosyne:
Yep.
As much as I’m known to vent about problems ranging from stupidity to racism in the American public, I’m also a firm believer that there’s no such thing as an “elite” that doesn’t suffer from all of the exact same problems. Case in point.
Mnemosyne
@schrodingers_cat:
I’m not even sure if it’s parliamentary vs non-parliamentary, but we definitely lack the escape hatches built into most parliamentary systems. Some US states don’t even have a process to recall House or US Senate members who are pissing their constituents off.
SFAW
@Elizabelle:
TBogg unit.
A Friedman unit is the “six months longer” increment of time to keep our armed forces in the latest quagmire.
dogwood
@Kay:
Yep. Rinse and repeat. Most of the media insist on treating Trump as if he is a normal human being. He is anything but. I don’t have cable , but a couple of times a month I go online and check out a few cable discussions. The news talkers are consistently giving Trump advise on how he can turn this around, as if they haven’t been watching him for decades. They’re in a bind now because there aren’t any democratic bad guys to balance their coverage. That’s why they latched on to Obama’s speaking fees. But stories like that just don’t have a long shelf life.
And I hear you about being careful around your son. I take a few days off every once in awhile and just blackout all news, which is easy because I’m retired. Told my sister yesterday morning I was taking the rest of the week off, and she should text me if there was something urgent happening beyond the daily nonsense. That hiatus didn’t last long.
TenguPhule
@Archon:
Worse. I’d definitely be feeling worse. We might as well have requested NATO airstrikes to give us a fighting chance in that case.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
I believe that’s because the founders figured their constituents would simply lynch any exceptional cases who were dumb enough to do so.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic:
FOX took its time and was more subtle about it. It wormed its way in by appearing on the surface to be reasonable at first glance, then very quietly began to slip little sips of poison into each broadcast…each hour, 24 hours a day. And a little more with Talk shows that masquerade as news, and of course always making sure only true believers reported and hosted, with a token “liberal” there for appearance. And a narrative begins to build in viewers minds, nothing so crass as being spoonfed completely from above but allowed to organically develop in their minds and then when they spout their angry theories they receive positive reinforcement from FOX, which establishes a bond of trust and keeps the narrative ever fresh and changing, adapting to the collective bias as fast as it changes.
Chile was minor leagues. This is world series.
Gex
@dogwood: Agreed. I just think that the liberals who call for the “bully pulpit” style from Dems seem not to realize that the rules don’t work the same for Dems as Reps. No one tone polices better than conservatives and the media that, no matter how “liberal” they are, have never failed to faint when the GOP instructs them to over something a Dem said.
Rob Lll
@Ian G.:
Thanks for this comment. My best friend from high school is Chilean and I stayed with him and his family in Santiago for several months in 1986 — while Pinochet was still in power. It was a grim experience in many ways, but I’m grateful for the way it opened my eyes to a lot of things.
I came back for a return visit in 2009. In many ways it was a completely different country — as my friend says “we’re now a *normal* country”. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but the Chileans had it a lot worse then we do now, pushed back, and won. Nothing is a given, but things *can* change for the better.
TenguPhule
@satby:
Yes, but can we afford to wait 10,000 years for that to happen?
Elizabelle
@SFAW: TBogg unit. Yes. Thank you, sir.
schrodingers_cat
All is lost, we are the worst country in the history of forever and things are going to get worse than post W Iraq and such apocalyptic scenarios are the purity pony, leftier than thou version of American exceptionalism. That’s why it so appeals to the same people BS appealed to.
Miss Bianca
@Mnemosyne: I think you malign Robespierre. Unlike the EC electors, he and the Jacobins were actually passing useful, socially progressive legislation at the same time as they were sending “enemies of the Revolution” to the guillotines. The EC electors can’t be said to be doing the same thing.
SgrAstar
@Elizabelle: Hey, Elizabelle- thanks for the bracing call to arms.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
Remember who’s in charge of the departments supposed to be doing the arresting and convicting.
And who holds the pardon power.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: Agreed. I’m sure Trump loves the trappings of power — the Marines at the door, the magic Coke button, summoning lawmakers to kiss his ass, etc. But being POTUS is one of the hardest jobs in the world. He’s not up to the task mentally or physically, and the people he hires aren’t worth a shit either, so it’s been nonstop chaos. It honestly would not surprise me if he strokes out. (Always got some bubbly chilled just in case.)
dogwood
@Gex:
That’s true. But it’s even more than media expectations. All that hair on fire stuff is a turn off to a lot of casual voters. I’m a partisan democrat, but I have always tuned out the Grayson and Weiner types on my side of the aisle. I don’t like those kind of people in my real world, so they don’t appeal to me as politicians. Grandstanding is phony.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat:
Ha ha, no.
But its going to hurt. A lot. Nobody is looking forward to the pain.
Applejinx
Turns out he also has a magic Henry Kissinger button. When we storm the castle, first thing we must do is DESTROY THAT FUCKIN’ BUTTON…
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
And this is when everything is relatively stable.
Keep in mind, we just entered hurricane season.
First major disaster, we get to see just how broken the system has become.
Gex
@The Moar You Know: And that doesn’t count all the people who will *literally* be harmed by this administration: Muslims, immigrants, black people, LGBT people, etc. People who will be harmed by both the administration and the rejuvenation of unvarnished public hostility towards us others that will continue long after Trump has self destructed.
I’m not overly pessimistic about America’s long term prospects and I share the general sentiment here that we need to hang on to hope and fight to avoid the worst case scenario no matter how much things are starting to resemble the worst case scenario, but I chafe at the flippant “we’ll be okay” tack that many have taken. I’m not pointing fingers at anyone here. I’m thinking in particular of a Garrison Keillor piece post election where he said that liberals can just sit back and let Trump and the GOP run things for shit because we don’t own any of it. And I thought, “well not ALL of us can afford to watch this for sport. but then we aren’t all rich straight white Christian dudes.”
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Someone in the SS may have to make a very hard choice that determines whether or not we start a nuclear war.
SatanicPanic
@TenguPhule: Chile could recover from mass murders, but we can’t recover from what we’re facing because our TeeVee iz moar cleverer. OK dood, I give up. I don’t want to have to rescue you from the bottom of the hole you’re digging.
TenguPhule
@Gex: We can get rid of Trump and the GOP in Congress.
How do we get rid of the assholes who vote for them?
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic: People’s attitudes are different here. They had it forced on them. The Republicans lay back and spread their legs wide with anticipation. Then got back up and decided to help Trump rape everyone else by holding them down.
If we do recover from this, it will require the complete and total destruction of the Republican party.
And FOX news being burned to the ground.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
It’s 2001 all over again.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
Trump also loves power and knows how to use it. He hates the mockery of the press and has abused the power of the presidency to beat the press down, to banish media he doesn’t like, and to push vile pseudo-media. And he knows how to whip his base into a frenzy of media hating to match his own disdain. His surrogates, including the GOP leadership willingly bow to his will and play his media games. And again, the main thing is this. He has always battled the media. Now, he can use official power to give himself a tremendous advantage over his enemies, including the media.
Trump is a Bridge and Tunnel rich boy whose father may have been controlling, cruel, and taunting. Trump, as a New Yorker, is not as pampered as people want to believe. But yeah, he is absolutely a bully. But a resilient one. People like to bring up his bankruptcies as evidence of failure. But he has always managed to restructure his way out of a financial jam. And now he has the presidency to use as collateral for his family business deals. This is vile and despicable, but he is able to operate in plain sight. His dumb ass supporters think it cool that Trump uses his office to enrich himself. Like the dopes who sign up for some “how to make riches” scam, they believe that if he gets rich, they will, too.
I don’t fully buy the long distance profiling on offer. It’s not that I don’t think that a lot of it is correct. I don’t think it sufficient and has not really helped to predict what Trump will do next except in the loosest of terms.
Also, Trump likes to play as if he believes in the divine right of presidents. He thinks he can force people to accept his lies. And again, he can use the power of the presidency in some way to enforce his will about trivial shit. That’s while he still goes on about crowd size and the size of his victory. Size, size, size. He is really hung up on size, and measuring up. Daddy issues. Maybe somebody should slip him a copy of “Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol 2” to screen at the White House.
But I’m only interested in Trump as a political animal. Look at how he dropped the pretense that he was going to work to make a repeal of Obamacare better for everyone. He just wanted a win. And even though he had previously slapped Ryan and the Tea Party fools around, ultimately they were eager to give him a win. This is where Trump is dangerous. He is not a pampered narcissist operating alone, or in a vacuum. He has put himself in the center of power, based on his will, his racist insecurities, and hIs bullying ignorance, which appeal not only to his base, but to the Republican leadership. They all reinforce one another.
And sadly, while the Brits kicked Farage to the curb, and the French dismissed Le Pen, Americans insisted on showing the world who was white boss and elected (with some help) this blustering autocratic fool. And Trump will take full advantage of the opportunity for all he’s worth.
El Caganer
@TenguPhule: Sort of a problem, yes? I think Charles Pierce is right when he identifies the bigger problem as modern Republicanism rather than Trumpism. Would President Cruz or Kasich or Walker or Ryan pursue policies that were substantially different than what the Trumpsters propose?
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone:
Am I getting overtime for this?
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
This. This is what I’ve been getting at that you summed up so brilliantly.
Its a feedback loop that’s building and building.
TenguPhule
@El Caganer:
And what horrible new levels of evil will they have to propose to attract their party’s base if they’re allowed to run next time?
dogwood
@Betty Cracker:
Both W and Obama had presidencies that were defined by real crises. Trump inherited a country in pretty good shape, yet creates crisis on a daily basis for shits and giggles. No President in my lifetime has ever stooped to that level with such regularity. And you’re right. He is not intellectually or physically fit to serve. I remember when Obama visited the WH after the election and when it came time for them to tour the residence Michelle said they looked around for a short time and then W steered Barack to the exercise room where they spent most of the rest of the time, while Laura showed her the actual living space. W and Obama did seem to have one thing in common and that was a shared understanding that you can’t do the job if you don’t exercise, sleep a reasonable amount and eat decently. And that’s especially true if you are 70 years old.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mustang Bobby:
I was there about a month ago, I have pictures.
El Caganer
@TenguPhule: “Horrible?” No, I prefer to think of “yuge,” and “classy” and “bigly.”
El Caganer
@dogwood: W should have waited 8 years before running those “Miss me yet?” ads.
Betty Cracker
@Gex: You’re so right — it’s not an abstraction. I know a couple of wonderful young women who will never get to see their mother again as a direct result of Trump’s election. Their mom, who lives abroad, is gravely ill. The girls want to see her so much, but if they leave the US, there’s a good chance they wouldn’t be allowed back in.
Their parents sacrificed a great deal to establish them here so they could have a better life. The mother forbids them to throw their chance away by coming to her side. But their hearts are breaking — the whole family. It’s an appalling situation, and it’s 100% down to the bigotry of Trump and his supporters, as well as the stupidity of people who wanted to send some idiotic message.
Real lives ruined, actual families torn apart. It makes me so goddamned sad and angry.
dogwood
@El Caganer:
Yep. But I don’t think he ran those billboard ads.
Betty Cracker
@dogwood: I hope Trump holds firm to the belief that sleep and exercise are for losers.
TenguPhule
@El Caganer: Whoever greenlit those ads needs to have their kneecaps broken. Repeatedly. That Bush still walks free is bad enough. Rubbing our faces in it that he skated is just adding insult to injury.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
Condolences.
I’d offer a hug, but I know I’m not on your favorite persons list.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Applejinx: I guess nobody told Trump that Henry the K was Clinton’s “mentor”. Then again nobody told Henry. Or Hillary.
El Caganer
@TenguPhule: He’s not one of my favorite guys, but frankly Trump makes him look more like Marcus Aurelius by the day.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
People throw the idea of Trump’s lack of fitness around a lot with good reason. Problem is, the Republicans are not going to push Trump’s cabinet to pull the 25th Amendment trigger.
And it’s not in the Constitution (not a small thing), but I don’t think that either party is ready to push for a mental evaluation as a pre-condition for running for president. And as much as I detest Trump, I would not be for the hard definition of “narcissism” as a disqualifying mental disorder.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: I’ve got no quarrel with you, so I’m not sure where that’s coming from, but I appreciate the kind sentiment nonetheless. ?
dww44
@Kay: I’d say the main pushback to that are Congressional Republicans themselves. They seem to be falling in line like the good little solders they are and General McConnell is not going to let them get off the reservation. Which is why we resisters have to do a bunch more very loud and persistent resisting.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker: Sorry, I know I have a tendency to grate on other people here. I honestly am trying my best to reign it in, but I’ve rubbed more then one commenter wrong.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Kay: Firing people was the ONE THING he was supposed to be good at.
Bill Arnold
@TenguPhule:
Think of it in terms of doing whatever you (and that’s a broad “you” including all who care) can to soften the landing.
Part of that includes strengthening local communities, including making friends with small-c conservatives, weaning them away from Fox/Alex Jones/Breitbart/whatever, and back onto what’s left of traditional conservatism, e.g. the kind of stuff written in The American Conservative.
I’m still seeing a soft landing as possible, though increasingly less likely.
No One You Know
@dm: Who are you to judge her at all? Pretending to apologise so that you again claim she’s not listening. YOU aren’t listening.
No One You Know
@FlipYrWhig: That’s my take. The only thing needed to create an autocrat is an organized police force and an indifferent public. The only thing that stops one is a public that resists.
It starts with one. Since we don’t know who the one will be, any of us could qualify (excepting only the quislings).
tybee
so close….
don’t make me post the next 17 comments ’cause i will if i have to.
TenguPhule
@Bill Arnold:
I’m already doing what I can, but not much can be done in an island out in the pacific that’s already thrown the Republicans out of all major positions of power and reduced them to a small band of Die Hard Trumpers.