Atrios has a good take on the Tories’ semi-defeat yesterday, which is consistent with this Guardian analysis:
The “youthquake” was a key component of Corbyn’s 10-point advance in Labour’s share of the vote – exceeding even Blair’s nine-point gain in his first 1997 landslide. No official data exists for the scale of the youth vote but an NME-led exit poll suggests turnout among under-35s rose by 12 points compared with 2015, to 56%. The survey said nearly two-thirds of younger voters backed Labour, with Brexit being their main concern.
The youngs are getting fucked over here, too, and if Democrats can turn them out in larger-than-average numbers, we will take back the House and have a shot at the Senate. If we do win the House, we ought to pass different versions of free tuition, and Medicaid/Medicare for all, until hell won’t have it anymore. Finance both of those with tax increases on the Trumps of the world.
Our definition of “young” needs to change, too. 55 year-olds are “young” for the purposes of fighting Republicans. Hell, even 65 is young when the Republicans are going to raise the Medicare eligibility age to 67. Lots of people put off major elective procedures until they are 65 – the thought of two more years of pain with a bad hip or bad knee prior to replacement should get a few people hobbling to the polls to cast their ballot for a party that clearly wants to push Medicare eligibility to 60 or 50 or, why not, birth. And as I assume 40 commenters will tell me, “Medicare for all” may not work in detail, but we can work out the details once we have the House, Senate and White House.
Calouste
So the Tory talking point today is how they are going to bring “stability” to Britain. Maybe not calling referenda and elections just to settle internal party disputes will do that, fuckheads. All the instability is the Tories own making.
hovercraft
Beyonce And Jay Z “Forever Young” “Halo”Paris Stade de France On The Run Tour.【HD】.
The real yutes will appreciated it ; )
Starfish
I do not agree with your definition of “young” at all. If the Democrats are going to be propping up nothing but white dudes of a certain age saying they are the better alternative to Republicans, I am not going to be enthusiastic about that. All the kids who have been saddled with a ton of college debt and thrown into a terrible job market are going to come out and have very different political expectations, and I do not blame them for that.
hovercraft
@Calouste:
That tweet from last night was spot on, the Tories hubris has brought about all of their problems.
Chris
Isn’t it looking like the Tories won after all? May says they came to an agreement with the DUP.
Leave them behind
thats just what we need more Bernie backing idiots messing things up for us. The only way to turn out the youth is to raise the voting age again. They’ll start caring then. Maybe.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Starfish:
Two parties centering the demands of white males who want free stuff is not the future of anything.
Betty Cracker
If the lawless, incompetent and embarrassing Trump regime can’t get people off their asses to vote, nothing ever will. I’m hopeful about a wave election in 2018 — I’ve never seen so many people who didn’t give a shit about politics getting off the sidelines. But one thing we need to stay focused on is countering suppression efforts. That’s huge with voters of all ages but especially young folks, women and POC.
HinTN
If you missed rickyrah’s link last night, you must go find the dscc ad regarding healthcare. It’s simple and powerful. I called both Corker’s and Alexander’s offices and got pleasant young men willing to take the time to listen to me.
Joe Falco
@Starfish: As a 30-something with said debt and working in public service, my political expectations tend to run towards keeping the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program in place for the next decade. But since Republicans decided we can’t have nice things, I’m not holding my breath for DeVos Umbridge to keep that program around.
Nicole
Except the GOP won’t raise the eligibility on everyone at once. They’ll raise it for people who are 40 or 45 and younger, and everyone above that will still get Medicare at 65, so they won’t give a fuck because it’s not their problem and those 40 or 45 are still feeling pretty good and won’t think about what that will mean when they’re 60 and still facing 7 more years of having to pay for health care. I remember when the Social Security full benefit retirement age was pushed up to 67- I was a child and didn’t think twice about it because 67 was forever away, anyway. Even in my 20s, when it started to phase in, it didn’t mean much to me.
People really don’t think about how one day their body is going to give out on them. I was at the eye doctor yesterday and the doc started to gently talk to me about the aging process of the eye, and I said, “Of course I’m getting farsighted. I’m 45.” He laughed in relief and told me that the eye center has a lot, a lot, of middle-aged patients who get very, very angry at the staff when they are told they need bifocals. Screaming, shouting, a lot of rage. Americans don’t like to think about getting old.
Don’t get me wrong; I don’t like that I’m getting older, either, but my mom died from cancer at 35, so I’m well aware that getting older beats the alternative. And I’ll wear the damn bifocals. I like being able to see.
Calouste
@Chris: Even with the DUP, May’s majority is smaller than it was before the election. It will probably be 2-3 years before she has lost enough seats in by-elections that she will lose a vote of no confidence. At least she doesn’t have to worry any more that MPs will defect to UKIP.
JMG
The first question in politics is “What’s in it for me?” What a surprise that young people respond to that same imperative as much as everybody else.
daveNYC
@Calouste: I think any calls by the Tories for stability are May trying to head off any attempts to replace her. She should be toast, but I’m not sure there’s anyone out there who wants the job and isn’t complete clown shoes.
Chris
@Calouste:
Oh yeah, no doubt about it. But, it looks like we’re still getting a Conservative government after all.
hovercraft
@Chris:
Yes, as she said they won the most seats, but, she lost her majority, weakened her hand, and will have to scrap the “dementia tax”. Given their weakness there will probably have to be another round of elections fairly soon, someone this morning pointed out that they are in danger of becoming Italy or Belgium, no party strong enough to win an outright majority. So yes they “won”, but she lost a lot more than she won, the election was a bid to get a strong mandate to go full steam on Brexit. The Tory losses were driven in large part by the anti Brexit losses. The only reason she’ll probably survive would be the same reason Boehner survived as long as he did, who wants to eat the shit sandwich they’ve just made. Boris may want it, but do the Tories want to have him be their face?
tobie
Universal healthcare has been a Democratic theme for some time. There are three ways of getting there–single payer, Bismarck plan (Germany, Switzerland), or nationalized healthcare (UK, Veterans Admin). It seems like most Dems are okay with route 1 or 2. The problem has been getting people to listen. The threat of losing healthcare has finally woken some people up but I don’t think the danger has sunk in yet.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Betty Cracker:
Well Wilmer has done a heckuva job convincing his low info cult of gullible idiots that the Democrats are more or as evil as Republicans, so they’re going to remain a problem because they refuse to be allies in the Resistance.
By the way, anyone of Wilmer’s cultists who hasn’t seen this clip of Claire McCaskill laying wood on Hatch over the lack of hearings on Trumpcare needs to watch it, then ask themselves where their loudmouth scoldy leader of the “single payer is the only way” purity brigade is in all this. Oh never mind, he’s out grandstanding while Jane’s starting a new grift.
Ryan
“Finance both of those with tax increases on the Trumps of the world.”
You can only raise taxes on tanning booths so high.
Gretchen
I didn’t hear that they’re trying to raise Medicare to 67. I’m counting the weeks until I turn 65 in March so I can retire and stop walking on this bad hip 8 hours a day.
smintheus
One of Labour’s excellent ideas this campaign was to have people pledge on line to take election day off to help get out the vote. Those who pledged were directed to nearby swing districts. Campaigners all over the UK yesterday reported that their districts were absolutely flooded with mostly young people knocking on doors.
Gretchen
And yes, Wilmer has done more harm than good, getting his folks all enthusiastic and then bitter and disillusioned. At least if they were just checked out they’d be available to get fired up.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Joe Falco:
My daughter’s economic future is tied very closely to that loan forgiveness as a public school teacher. In Massachusetts, teachers are required to have a Master’s degree, and then they get paid shit, relative to other professions that require advanced degrees. Hillary would have preserved it, but both parties are the same or something I’m told.
Major Major Major Major
@Betty Cracker: I read an article at Slate I think about the new voter
IDsuppression law in NH and wow, they’ve really ratcheted up.GregB
Oh listening CNN, to the good folks in West Virginia hoping that Big Daddy Trump will come and use government money to expand their infrastructure so that they can get jobs.
Government spending creates jobs now people.
amk
@Betty Cracker:
Yup.
Joe Falco
@JMG: We did have a JFK for our generation exhorting us to ask what we can do for our country. But that was then. Now we’re in the Tricky Dick phase who isn’t nearly as tricky but is just as big of a Dick as the first one was.
Mike in DC
Has anyone ever studied whether talking about vote suppression has, itself, an impact upon the vote, for good or ill?
Major Major Major Major
@amk: we said that about Bush, too, and it took people six years to notice.
Then again, he did have the greatest homeland security fuckup in American history helping him.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@GregB:
Anyone who thinks white people don’t love big government socialism, and have always loved big government socialism hasn’t paid any attention. It’s when big government socialism means “those people” get jobs or free stuff too is why we have a racist con man as president.
D58826
@GregB: Only when it is spent by a Republican
different-church-lady
Soooo… that’s great. How do we do that?
Goblue72
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I’m actually enjoying the degree to which Sanders has driven you PUMAs completely barmy. Do you listen to yourselves?
No matter. We’re gonna run you over next election.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Goblue72:
And here’s Exhibit A.
raven
@different-church-lady: Where ya been moron?
rikyrah
@Joe Falco:
Man, I despise her.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Goblue72: Hiya Dwight!! How’s the “Let’s you and them take it to the streets” Revolution going?
“barmy”– someone’s been reading tweets from the UK
JGabriel
mistermix @ top:
I agree. Also, let’s make it really Medicare for All, by giving everyone the same options for Medigap plans, Medicare Part D, and/or Medicare Advantage that seniors have, plus Medicaid to help the poor, indigent, and those who need catastrophically expensive care (for hemophilia, regular dialysis, etc.), for whatever they’ll still need help with.
I don’t think that’ll be ideal either – and I hope David explores and critiques that option at some point – but it would give us a much stronger base to work and build from once we finally have the means to do it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
The Rise of Cubicles is coming
D58826
so according to Allen Dershowitz says that if Trump swerves the car into the cross walk and hits Comey it’s ok because Trump has the right to drive the car. And that Trump has the right to tell the FBI stop stop any investigation, even one into his own campaign. because he is the head of thew exec. branch. All of which sound like POTUS can literally get away with murder. He is above the law.
Bill E Pilgrim
Off topic but then what is these days:
Oops.
different-church-lady
@Goblue72: Sure. Just as soon as you look up from your smartphone and stop Tweeting long enough to get in a car.
rikyrah
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
They love WHITE Socialism.
Felonius Monk
Great Britain might have be better off if Lord Buckethead or Mr. Fishfinger had garnered more votes than Theresa May.
chopper
@Goblue72:
HAHAHAHAHAHA (wipes tear)
rikyrah
They REALLY don’t understand the position they’re in.
They think Comey is one of the contractors that they can just sue until they give up.
This is his personal attorney, and this has been his MO.
They REALLY do think that they can do this.
They don’t understand that this is a whole other ballgame.
Comey’s not some subcontractor.
And, he’s not playing with you.
Mnemosyne
@Goblue72:
Awww, izzoo still butthurt that the Wilmerite in the CA Democratic Party election lost and is now embarrassing herself by insisting that it was all fraudulent with zero evidence?
Nice pick there, Wilmerites. Delusional is as delusional does, and you guys sure picked a crazy person as your standard-bearer.
Mnemosyne
@chopper:
Dwight is butthurt because the Wilmerites lost the internal Democratic Party elections here in California. That’s why he keeps promising, Wait till next year!
Tom
@Ryan: The highest tax bracket was 90% in the 1950s, the Golden Era according to the Republican mythos. But for starters I’ll settle for returning them to what they were when Bill Clinton was president, which (not coincidentally) was the last time we had a balanced budget.
Chris
@Mnemosyne:
How many of his pet candidates have won anywhere?
SatanicPanic
What’s a good term here? Active people? Working people is too loaded.
patroclus
Unfortunately, while the results and the comeback were impressive, the Tories and DUP won the election last night, coming in with 318 + 10 seats, which will be enough to govern. There won’t be a formal coalition, but rather an informal arrangement whereby the DUP will, for now, vote with the Tories on confidence motions, the Queen’s Speech and the budget. The DUP doesn’t want Corbyn at all and refused to work with Labour as long as he’s the Leader. They support a “soft” Brexit, they’ve usually voted against austerity when the measures are voted on, they want to maintain agreements with the Republic of Ireland regarding border controls and other things. Several of their MP’s (like Ian Paisley Jr.) often aren’t there, but they’ll probably be a little more meticulous now if needed. Their margin is putatively 6, but Sinn Fein (who won 7 seats) is abstentionist, so the real margin is about 13, which is strong enough to withstand minor defections and a few by-election losses.
If it foreshadows anything in the U.S., it projects 2018 as a close loss for the Dems in the House; despite perhaps, initial optimism. Only if Labour dumps Corbyn, who the DUP regard as pro-IRA, would there be a chance of a change. Kind of disappointing after early hopes. The DUP has often been very anti-gay in their pronouncements although they have usually limited that to only in Northern Ireland rather than attempting to roll back the clock throughout the U.K.
hovercraft
@D58826:
Lawrence Tribe smacked that shit down last night, he pointed out that by that logic, the president is a monarch, and we fought the revolutionary to get away from that. No one is above the law.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Chris:
The only thing that matters is that he’s stayed away from Ossoff and keeps staying away from Ossoff.
D58826
And while all of this is going on:
1. the GOP continues to pass legislation or revoke regulations to make America great for polluters/wall street again
2. pass legislation to enact Allen Grayson’s health plan ‘if yuou get sick die quick’ and
3. nothing is being done to prevent Putin from high jacking the next election. If anyone thinks that the Russians won’t try to change vote totals next time, I have a herd of pink unicorns that want to cross that bridge I’m trying to sell you.
JMG
@patroclus: It doesn’t foreshadow anything in the US, no more than our 2016 election foreshadowed the British one yesterday or Macron’s win in France foreshadows anything here either.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@patroclus:
It also seems like if Jeremy Corbyn weren’t Jeremy Corbyn Labor could have done better.
Bill E Pilgrim
@rikyrah: MSNBC interviewing Trump voters in Arizona and they’ve all been convinced that Comey leaked conversations while he was still FBI Director.
Then for a demonstration of where these people get that idea, they had some Republican member on who said “If he leaked once then the concern is when else did he?” and the interviewer pressed “But if it was after he was fired, how was it even a leak in the sense you’re saying?” and his response was “Well the concern is if he did it once, then when else…”
It really doesn’t matter what happens in reality for these voters if the only way they hear it described is through the FOX Escher Funnel.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Good god, MSNBC is apparently giving a whole hour over to some idiot babbling about Loretta Lynch and… .TravelGate
Robert Ray, who investigate “Travelgate” twenty-plus fucking years ago
the sound track to this should be “Macarena’
Camembert
@different-church-lady: As your comment above notes, the young-people-over-fucking will continue in a bipartisan fashion until morale improves.
chopper
@patroclus:
that’s a pretty shitty coalition. combined with the fact that may can’t govern her way out of a wet sack, we’ll have to see how much gets done. looks like brexit negotiations will still be happening tho.
O. Felix Culpa
@Camembert: Cheese!
Major Major Major Major
@Goblue72:
That doesn’t make any sense, it’s… not even wrong.
amk
@patroclus: wow, way to read the poll results totally wrong. First, May has to worry about her own party before we give the dup all the god like powers they will never have. Another round of elections is coming soon.
O. Felix Culpa
@Major Major Major Major: So you’re saying, he’s John McCain?
amk
May was a failure as a cabinet member and now is a failure as a PM.
hovercraft
@rikyrah:
Kasowitz, I don’t know or care what the spelling is, is know as the DT of lawyers, full of shit, and that’s saying something considering he’s a lawyer. No offense ; ) This is the moron who sued one of Twitlers biographers because he said that Twitler was only worth a couple of billion. He said the author had “defamed” his client by saying he wasn’t as rich as he claimed he was. So the author said all you have to do to prove defamation is produce evidence of your clients wealth and you’ll win, and I’ll make the correction. Suddenly they remembered that they had to wash their hair and the lawsuit evaporated.
Filing frivolous lawsuits does not look good on a president, and siccing the Justice Department on Comey would backfire big time, they think they have a leak problem right now?
different-church-lady
@Camembert: Personally I find the inter-generational blamefest to be tedious at best and destructive at worst. I view boomer whinging and millennial winging with equal distaste and frequently wish both groups would just shut their pie holes and grab a mop.
Bill E Pilgrim
@chopper: It’s far from certain that this weak coalition of conservatives and extreme right wingers will be able to hold onto power, and even less so that May will be there very long. This is one of those times when you really can’t predict what will happen (sign of the times) but that includes any predictions about her coalition actually working being as iffy as anything else.
O. Felix Culpa
@hovercraft: Both incompetent AND stupid. So much winning!
Quinerly
@rikyrah:
And the FBI and IC aren’t fucking playing with you, Trump et al.
Yoda Dog
@O. Felix Culpa: McCain speaks more sensibly than this dipshit..
Chyron HR
@Goblue72:
Will you bother running for any Republican-held seats as well, or is the True Progressives’ master plan to create a new, more progressive Congressional minority?
Bill E Pilgrim
@hovercraft: Best take of the day so far for me is W Bush’s chief White House ethics lawyer, saying that actually, trying or even threatening to send the DOJ after Comey now is just more obstruction of justice.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
Not a single Dem vote for Trumpcare either, but Nancy Pelosi is the devil according to Wilmer’s idiot cult.
Where is scoldy Wilmer anyway? Shouldn’t the loudmouth be out in front of all this Resistance? Oh right, yesterday he finally admitted that there might be something to this whole Russia thing. What a fucking fraud.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Cheesy has a subscription to Jacobin magazine, which this month features 15,000 words on the history of the mop as a tool of capitalist hierarchy. And a humor piece by Matt Stoller.
TenguPhule
Its a beautiful morning!
SatanicPanic
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Nancy has been so good, but apparently messaging is more important than actually being good at her job?
patroclus
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Yeah, but somewhat perversely, Labour’s better-than-expected showing will strengthen Corbyn in the Labour party. And given the DUP’s hatred of Corbyn, unless and until he leaves, this governing arrangement is likely to last. Brexit negotiations will go forward; but with the weakening of May, the EU is likely to play out the entire 2-year string with a lot of focus on process rather than substance for about 23 months. That is, nothing is likely to be agreed until the deadline looms and the U.K. is offered a “take-it-or-leave-it” deal. This enhances the Northern Irish’s Unionist power to the greatest its been since roughly 1910.
chopper
@Bill E Pilgrim:
brexit really is going to stay the 800lb gorilla in the room, cause it cuts right down the middle of the uk’s political structure. since may has zero skills as a politician this is not going to work very well.
Brachiator
@Tom:
I keep seeing this mentioned here in Balloon Juice time and time again, and it is largely wrong. The effective tax rate was not 90 per cent, not with all the various deductions and exemptions, nor was the 1950s a magical time with respect to funding for government programs or income redistribution.
This is pretty much true, even though conservatives either ignore this or lie about it, or try to conflate a balanced budget with national debt, which did not disappear. And the Democrats often cannot get this point across.
hovercraft
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I saw him on msnbc last night, he loathes Twitler and his merry band of morons, but he seems to loath what he’s reduced the GOP to even more. He’s not mincing words with this lot, he’s called the TRussia stuff treason and he says the case for obstruction of justice at the very least is a slam dunk, he’s called the family shenanigans corrupt and a clear violation of the emoluments clause, in short he hates the present occupant of the WH.
chopper
@Chyron HR:
silly, the true progressive master plan (patent pending!) involves waiting for someone else to do the work while you sit on your couch and bitch on the internet.
patroclus
@amk: Hopefully, you’re right – narrow governing arrangements like this usually don’t last long. The question will be whether it lasts 2 years because that’s the Article 50 negotiating window. Arlene Foster, the DUP leader, has said that “nobody wants a hard Brexit” so she and the DUP will presumably align with the Tory wets on that and May will have to preside over a very divided Tory coalition with only a 13-seat (effective) majority. And it’s always possible that the DUP will insist on Northern Irish carve-outs on various policies with which the Conservatives won’t go along with. So the length of this government is iffy, but under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, it would take a Vote of No Confidence (on a majority) or a 2/3rd’s vote to call for a new election and with the DUP in the Tory’s lap, that’ll be difficult for the opposition parties to trigger.
different-church-lady
@chopper:
THERE! I’M A CULTURE WARRIOR!!!
Brachiator
Yep. A lot of good analysis on the importance of younger voters in the Financial Times.
Obviously, you can’t translate this directly to US politics, but some of the same political forces are at work here.
nightranger
Lol. Also, Bernie Sanders is our saviour. Isn’t that right Markymux?
Every election everyone hopes younger people will turn out because….reasons. Every election it NEVER happens. I don’t care how crazy and unhinged Oompa Loompa gets. They still won’t turn out.
D58826
@Brachiator: I’d be happy to go back to the morning in America Reagan top rate of 50%
And as far as the 90% not being what people actually paid due to deductions/etc, does any one really think that if they cut the top rate to 28% the deductions/tax dodges won’t still be there in one form or another? The only loopholes eliminated will be the one affecting the other 99% never the 1%
randy khan
@rikyrah:
Yeah, filing a complaint against Comey is remarkably stupid. It will only stiffen his already-stiff spine.
NorthLeft12
I am beginning to really wonder what kind of grandparents you have in the US. As a relatively new grandparent myself, some of the decisions I make [including voting] is with my two grandsons [and the rest of their generation] in mind. Before that I voted and budgeted with my two daughters [and their generation too] in mind. I hope like hell that is not unusual.
What the bleeping hell is wrong with your olds that they don’t give a damn about their children or grandchildren? Have the politics of greed and fear become so all consuming among this group that all they care about is themselves and their comfort and “safety”?
West of the Cascades
It’ll be a great day when President Gillibrand appoints David Anderson to be Secretary of Health and Human Services.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
MSNBC on mute: The Orange Ape is playing with some big thick books, I’m guessing to make some point about over-regulation
ETA: Chyron says: “Trump talks infrastructure after basting Comey”. So… more witness intimidation and voiding any claim of executive privilege, I suppose
Unknown known
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: That is fundamentally unknowable.
Corbyn’s image started out the campaign as a major drag on Labour’s prospects, but as the election started giving him direct exposure to the public (rather than just dismissive reports about him), people started coming round. As of now he’s still not widely POPULAR, but he’s not so quite widely unpopular either. Voters were expecting him to be a head-in-the-clouds ineffectual unreconstructed marxist. However much that might have been true of him at different times, he managed to come across as a genuine outsider, pushing popular non-crazy left wing policies.
Could a different labour leader have done better? Maybe. But their alternatives weren’t exactly Obama or Trudeau here. And, as I said in a prior thread, he has been the first person to actually get the anti-austerity message to start resonating at all in the wider UK public. .
Also something I’m not seeing talked about here much is that he had some Sanderites come over and train his people on how to activate enthusiastic young people into a ground game. By all accounts that produced an awful lot of activity ferrying people to polls, and may explain a chunk of the boost in youth voting that arguably carried labour as far as it did.
So would labour have done better with another leader? Maybe, but he did a lot better than the last guy, so it’s no slam dunk case to make there.
msdc
40 commenters and one fellow front-pager who’s an expert in the field, but who’s counting?
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: ‘atta boy.
SiubhanDuinne
@HinTN:
In case nobody else has provided the link:
rikyrah
New polling shows Trump’s standing slipping to new lows
06/09/17 11:20 AM
By Steve Benen
Given some of the fundamentals of domestic current events – most notably the lowest unemployment rate in over a decade – it’s tempting to assume a new president would enjoy reasonably strong public support right now.
That’s clearly not the case with this new president.
patroclus
@JMG: I agree that the U.K. doesn’t really foreshadow anything in the U.S. given the different systems and the different parties and the different issues. But many often claim that they do (Thatcher-to-Reagan; Clinton-to-Blair), so if they do, it’d be a close Dem loss. But really, the results were so close (some by very slim margins like 2 votes) that what it really forecasts (if anything) is that 2018 in the U.S. will also be very close and could go either way. Labour’s comeback and their better-than-expected showing is actually a good sign. In my view, Atrios is right.
Camembert
I’m always fascinated by the anger in these discussions. They generally go as:
Dem Over 45: Why can’t we get The Youngs to vote for us? They are all in their basements and with the iPhones and the sexting.
Millenial around age 35: Well, there were a lot of ways in which the Obama Administration made decisions that specifically didn’t help us. Not sending anyone to jail for the biggest financial fraud in history made us cynical and also trashed the economy. We need jobs. The sequester was anti-Keynesian and we need jobs; meanwhile, Fed monetary policy drove land prices up, so now we have to pay higher rents on our lack of jobs. We’re the ones that get sent overseas when the latest Thing happens in Afghanistan or Libya or Iraq. And it’s not like cops have gotten any nicer to us, despite the spotlight we’ve shone on the abuse. A bunch of us have friends who are afraid day-to-day of getting deported since Obama stepped up ICE and now Trump has a whole database of DREAMers to work with. And don’t get me started on my student loans.
And it’s not a coincidence that the areas where we were most affected are ones where Obama hired Republicans — the economy, the military, law enforcement.
Dem Over 45: You ingrateful sacks of shit! Didn’t you get the fundraising email? The world will absolutely end if you don’t empty your bank accounts and refuse to provide any oversight right now! I curse you! For a thousand generations, I curse you to rising seas, underemployment, nasty landlords, and cops all up in your biz. I curse you to fight in foreign wars for college money, and I curse you to live in daily fear of the Out Of Network doctor at the ER!
(pause to straighten clothing)
…seriously, kids these days. Why don’t they love us? They must be deranged.
Yoda Dog
@West of the Cascades: Exactly. Someone’s getting overexcited earlier than usual today..
NorthLeft12
@NorthLeft12: BTW maybe I’m wrong in thinking this, but I would like to believe that my kids consider my interests when they vote, and not just their own interests.
Their Mom and I raised them to have consideration for others, and I think it mostly stuck.
Major Major Major Major
@NorthLeft12: they care about their grandchildren. They just hate black people/immigrants’ grandchildren more.
geg6
@Chris:
Zero. Zilch. None.
The Dems are better off doing everything they can to get single women and women of color to come out. That’s who will be the key to winning the House.
Corner Stone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
My God. He skipped the lawsuit and had him sent directly to the ovens?!
Major Major Major Major
@Camembert: I’m a millennial and I’m rather offended by your charicature of “Dems over 45.”
Scotius
The official dance of the 1996 Republican National Convention.
Chris
@NorthLeft12:
Well, when my grandmother died a couple of years ago at the age of 92, she was still more liberal than most of the country – heck, liberal enough to make me uncomfortable sometimes. So, y’know, not everyone sucks. #notallgrandparents
schrodingers_cat
I see a sudden explosion of purity progressive trolls claiming to speak for everyone under 45. Putin must be sweating after hearing Comey’s testimony. His troll bots are in full attack mode.
Chyron HR
@Camembert:
Did giving control of the government to the Republican party make the problems of the “Age 35 Millenials”:
A) Better
B) Worse
Chris
@Camembert:
How old are you? I’m curious now.
Miss Bianca
@Brachiator:
As I had a rich guy – who actually would be in this tax bracket – point out to me recently. It was actually the only informative thing I came away with from that conversation, which was mostly appalling and surreal considering that he was a Trump supporter.
schrodingers_cat
@Chris: 65 pretending to be 25.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
just a dewy-eyed child of 35, are you?
Telling that this is the first thing you mention. Presidents don’t “send people to jail”.
Served in all three areas, did you?
Do you have an off button?
Fifty bucks says the name on this one’s driver’s license is Jason, Justin, Ryan or Trey, and he was an accomplished hackeysacker and somewhere in his closet in his mom’s house are a few DMB concert t-shirts.
ETA: @schrodingers_cat: one time Dwight described himself as a millennial and then gave his age as mid-forties in the same thread.
patroclus
@Unknown known: That’s a good point. Most thought of Corbyn as an ineffectual leader prior to about a week ago, but he’s actually a good campaigner and was able to put together a manifesto which actually appealed to a lot of voters; especially younger people. He’s earned a new lease on life and should withstand any potential challenge. It would be bad form and bad politics if Labour were to even try to dump him at this stage notwithstanding that that could be the path to power by de-coupling the DUP from the Tories. Time and new policies will undoubtedly do that on its own. I’m much more favorable to Corbyn now (although he still doesn’t do PMQT very well).
Yoda Dog
@Camembert: Millenials don’t blame Obama for the recession, en masse, like you descibe there. That’s pretty stupid actually. Sorry.
O. Felix Culpa
@Camembert: Fromage!
Peale
@patroclus: Yep. Fair is fair. He’s had an election now and they won back some voters. He gets to keep his job. I would not make much out of the fact that North Irish party that is giving May her job won’t “ever, never, ever” work with Labor because of Corbyn. In order to form a government, Corbyn would have needed them and almost every other party to back him. Was the SNP onboard ith that coalition? Were the Lib Dems? That one Green?
Ruckus
@SatanicPanic:
How can one be good at their job if the overlords are not making tons of money off your suffering?
amk
@Camembert: So, who exactly do you lurve ? There are smart millenials. Unlike you.
Mike in DC
Contra Kasowitz, Mueller is assembling the legal team equivalent of the 2017 Golden State Warriors. Though it seems like Alan Dershowitz and Jonathan Turley are auditioning for Team Trump.
smintheus
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Labour made massive gains on the Tories, largely because it was led by Corbyn. He dumped Blairism good and hard and went back to old Labour policies that people (especially non-older voters) responded to very favorably. Even most of Corbyn’s critics in the Blair wing of Labour have conceded that he led the party well.
Camembert
@Yoda Dog: Enh, they know it was a bipartisan commitment to shitshow. They just also know that Obama wasn’t on their side on this one. Neoliberalism as an ideology is so pervasive that there’s no understanding of what a good economy might look like, just an understanding that this one sucks.
Don’t get me wrong — we all love us some ACA Medicaid expansion and are looking forward to it morphing into #SinglePayerNow over time. As a GenXer who hangs with Millenials, I can attest. But the absolute spittle-flecked rage that comes out of the establishment backers every time someone mentions that there were real policy failures during the Obama years based on Obama policy that affected young folks more and harder is baffling to me.
gvg
Wasn’t the reason May ended up PM after Brexit was she was the only one of the leaders in her party who didn’t run around with her hair on fire because Brexit wasn’t expected to win? I sort of get the impression it’s kind of like with Broehner, nobody else wants the job because the various factions are too stubborn and want everything but not the same things. They said she would resign if she lost seats, she lost seats and then didn’t resign almost seemed like again nobody else was willing to try.
The GOP through most of my life was an alliance of various groups, most notably business and evangelicals, which did not have much in common and were often predicted to be about to break up but didn’t for awhile. Now it’s hard to define the interests but they are fighting and demanding the whole pie no sharesies. I don’t know enough about British politics but I have heard things like 1/3 of labor was pro Brexit or Tories etc. so it sounds to me like a shakeup event is happening and the parties may end up redefined. Nobody seems to have a good plan. the bad economy and austerity probably helped cause Brexit. The big economies of Germany and France are making the EU do austerity which is bad for the economy but brexit is going to cause more problems. There may be no leadership because no one sees a good plan and that may be because there isn’t one.
Camembert
@amk: Hey wow a neg I’m astonished the Establishment Dems are borrowing PUA tactics based on entitlement and privilege.
Unknown known
@patroclus: Oh Corbyn has been on a steep learning curve, that’s for sure. When he started PMQ’s he was an absolute train wreck. He’s still not great at them, but he’s getting better. I suspect it’s been a good training ground for him – regular sparring sessions with a high stakes feel, that almost no voters are really aware of, or care about.
Similarly, his first attempt at putting together a cabinet was kind of a shit show. They were just announcing people as they went along, and didn’t notice that they didn’t have any women in top jobs until people started screaming about it in public. This is the kind of thing he’s slowly been wrapping his head around. It’s his first big leadership job, not at all surprised that he’s been taking some lumps along the way. His manifesto was an excellent example of making your compromises, and having an eye for things that will be popular, while sidestepping a lot of your more unpopular impulses.
In a sense a properly hung parliament with a labour minority government would probably have been a near optimal outcome, because governing by consensus would probably work relatively better for him than by decree. Not till he gets further along that learning curve.
I was struck watching the Beeb coverage last night, after the exit poll came out, and the meaning of it started sinking in, how all the labour heavyweights they interviewed were pretty much giving mea culpas on doubting Corbyn, and sounding pretty constructive about getting behind him. I very much doubt you are going to see a leadership challenge any time soon.
hovercraft
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Patting himself on the back for helping Corbyn “win”?
Via the Guardian
You see when Corbyn comes 65 seats short of the majority and with 800K fewer votes, that’s a ‘win’, unlike that terrible campaign she who shall not be mentioned or seen ran.
Camembert
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Thanks for the 100% support on my meme.
geg6
@Camembert:
Funny. Unless they are Trumpist white boys, all the youngs that I hang around with every day love, love, love Obama. In a big way.
I hang with hundreds of them every day. How about you?
schrodingers_cat
Russian bot has language trouble.
Huh?
Mnemosyne
@Camembert:
Shut up, troll.
Corner Stone
@Camembert:
Is this another style of soft spreadable cheese? Sounds kind of French.
Camembert
@schrodingers_cat:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=neg
Camembert
@Corner Stone:
“Neoliberalism (neo-liberalism)[1] refers primarily to the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism.[2]:7 These include extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society.[10] These market-based ideas and the policies they inspired constitute a paradigm shift away from the post-war Keynesian consensus which lasted from 1945 to 1980.[11][12]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
FlipYrWhig
@Camembert: The number of people who offer the critiques of Obama you catalog and treat as typical of a generation is probably about 3% of Democrats and ~1% of the country. And as usual the noisiest bleat of the leftier-than-thous is “I just don’t understand why the views of a tiny minority of people, many of whom think voting is a scam by The Establishment, aren’t catered to more often.” Sigh.
Also, GoBlue was at LGM recently scoffing about how nobody cares about Brexit, notwithstanding that his vaunted Young People in the UK polled that they cared quite a lot about it. That boy ain’t right.
Ruckus
@Nicole:
It’s not one day, it’s every day.
Some days are worse than others of course and while it’s not all that rare to have big events, mostly it’s bit by bit, pain by pain, day by day. And while the big events can sometimes be delayed or even fixed, the little ones keep on coming. Getting past a certain age is like having the Energizer Bunny of medical issues working against you.
hovercraft
@Yoda Dog:
Here’s some ammo for you:
Amy Walter, February 24, 2017
Divided States of America
…. I looked specifically at the early February poll which tested Trump’s approval ratings (the first of his presidency) and the early January poll which was their final poll on Obama’s presidency. ….
There’s been a small increase in the divide on age. In January, Obama’s approval rating among millennials was 15 points higher than it was among Boomers. Trump’s approval ratings among boomers is 20 points higher than it was among millennials.
different-church-lady
@NorthLeft12: Selfishness is the dominate note in American society. It cuts across all generations, but we still linger under the mistaken impression that people naturally grow out of it as they age.
patroclus
@Peale: The one Green said she’d have done anything to keep the Tories out, so she would have supported Labour without any question. But the SNP and the Lib Dems had “ruled it out” so those were both more iffy. Given adequate concessions (i.e., stopping Brexit, a Scottish independence referendum), they were both possible coalition members but it would have taken some hard bargaining and the outcome was unclear. Plaid would have followed the SNP and Sinn Fein wouldn’t have shown up. Labour + all other parties (not named DUP) is on 322, but 7 of those are Sinn Fein abstentionists so it’s really 315, which just isn’t enough. It’s close, but no cigar.
FlipYrWhig
@Camembert: MY SMALL GROUP OF ANGRY LEFTIST FRIENDS ALL AGREE WITH ME ON ANGER AND LEFTISM. ALSO EVERYONE IN BOSTON LIKES THE RED SOX ERGO EVERYONE EVERYWHERE LIKES THE RED SOX IM TOTES SURE
Unknown known
@gvg: You’re missing a lot of the nuances I’m afraid.
May seems to have been a very soft remainer before the Brexit vote, and kept a fairly low profile about it. Whenthe vote obligated them to take Brexit seriously, that eliminated the strong pro-remain voices from contention, so she was competing against a reduced field, but all of the hard core leavers were still in contention.
Brexit is a weird issue in British politics, because it fissures heavily across party lines. The conservatives have always been heavily divided about it (strong exit and remain sides at war for decades). Labour has traditionally skewed more pro-europe, but with the perma-recession and austerity, brexit became an outlet for lots of margianlized labour votes. It was easy to blame the strain on health care, schools, etc on the funny looking people that were suddenly making old blightly not seem so English, than it was on the Tories starving them of cash. Life was pretty clearly sucking, and a handy scapegoat was on hand to channel all that anger. So now, Brexit cuts across party lines pretty strongly.
People have speculated about realignment based on Brexit, but it seems that’s not going to happen, because its pretty much an isolated issue. The pro-brexit tories and labour don’t agree on anything else, and have too much mutual in-baked cultural antipathy to really climb into bed together.
France and Germany are forcing austerity on Spain/Greece etc, but that is because spain/greece etc owe a lot of money to french/german banks (and they are in the Euro, so they can’t devalue their currency to salvage their economy, or use inflation to reduce their debt load). The UK is doing austerity becomes the conservatives are true believers, and the English media establishment have pretty much bought into this as sensible non-partisan budget analysis (even the non-crazy right wing parts of it). This is part of why they are all so shaken that Corbyn could possibly have succeeded – a lot of what he is saying was simply outside their acceptable zone of reality. Even the guardian was somewhat incredulous about him until a week or two ago.
Betty Cracker
I like the cut of Senator Gillibrand’s jib:
different-church-lady
@patroclus:
Assuming that everything stays the same between now and Nov. 2018. And that’s a lock, right?
different-church-lady
@Betty Cracker: UNLEASH THE SCOLDS!!!
FlipYrWhig
@hovercraft: His argument is even dumber than that because it’s not “Millennials are skeptical about Obama” it’s “Millennials are skeptical about Obama FROM THE LEFT.” Huge portions of the Obama-skeptical millennial crowd are on the _right_, e.g. Reddit alt-righters.
different-church-lady
@Camembert:
CART. HORSE. FUCKIN’ ORDER, HOW DOES IT WORK?
smintheus
@hovercraft: May called the election because she thought Labour was so weak she could vastly increase the Tory majority. Instead, she lost her majority and has to cobble together a bare majority with an Irish party. Also, her party wants to dump her after she has demonstrated conclusively that she’s political poison. Restoring the Tories’ reputation for toxicity and in-fighting is definitely a win…especially when Labour gained about 10% of the vote over its 2015 showing, which is virtually unprecedented.
You seem to be unaware that Corbyn did in fact consult with Sanders people on how to energize and harness populist enthusiasm.
hovercraft
@hovercraft: Since I don’t have permission to edit #135
Approval among millennials – 66 %
Approval among boomers – 51 %
Mnemosyne
@Camembert:
You think you’re an intellectual, don’t you, ape?
HinTN
@Betty Cracker: Now I am really delighted with her.
NR
Mistermix: Democrats should try to turn out young voters by pursuing policies that will benefit them and pointing out that Republican policies are and will continue to fuck them over.
BJ Commenters: Fuck you. I hate white guys who want free stuff. Also, Bernie Sanders is a meanine poopyhead.
Me: facepalms
Chyron HR
@Camembert:
Wow, that sure is a comprehensive list of things that no elected Democrat has actually done.
ThresherK
@Betty Cracker: Looks like a three-way tie (David Brooks, Chris Matthews, George Will) in the race to see who will hit the fainting couch first.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@
: am beginning to really wonder what kind of grandparents you have in the US
Like Trump – constant indocturnation from Right Wing Media like Fox news to point these elders can’t think straight.
NR
@FlipYrWhig:
But 98% of who the BJ commentariat talks about when they bring up “the left.”
different-church-lady
@smintheus:
You gotta admit, Sanders is good at that. Now Labour should hope Corbyn is better than him at the actual mechanics of policy.
Unknown known
@patroclus: Lib Dems are so scarred from their last coalition, that there was no way they were going for one again. Not for another generation.
The labour plan, such as it was, was to govern as a minority party – no formal alliances, no deals. They would just put their bills up to vote on, and allies could choose to vote with them or not. If might have worked for a little bit, but all governments have to pass some stuff that’s not wildly popular, and then they would have gotten into trouble. It’s not a very stable state of affairs.
Still, if they could have held it together long enough, they would have taken over the Brexit negotiations.
That would likely have meant a much better outcome, but also that they would have been blamed by voters for all the crappy stuff it WILL do. The current arrangement means that things will be worse, but at least the right people will get the blame. That’s a silver lining I suppose.
hovercraft
@smintheus:
Yeah I saw that, the Tories were fantasizing about having triple digit majorities!
I saw something about the fact that the marginal seats she personally campaigned in did worse overall, the Tories won only 16 of the, ( I think), 50 seats she put her personal touch on. As I said earlier, I think the only thing that may save her now, is no one other than Boris Johnson wants to deal with the shit sandwich she’s made. If she survives, it won’t be for long.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
The Left =/= Democrats. I didn’t realize that you were still ignorant of this basic fact after all this time.
smintheus
@different-church-lady: Corbyn would find it hard to fail on policy, now that May has set a threshold so low that virtually any Labour policy will look brilliant by comparison. Promising to take away her own elderly voters’ homes if they get sick?! That’s not policy, that’s a toxic stew of arrogance and stupidity.
Chyron HR
@NR:
So wait, are you “White working class lives are what REALLY matter” Berniecrats an irrelevant 3% minority or the most powerful political force in history?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Camembert:
Seriously dumbass, what kind of alternative fact world do you live in that somehow Obama ordered the Sequestor? And the Berni kids were Gen Xs, not Millennials you ignorant twat.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Huh?
How does that have anything to do with what I said?
You are right though, Democrats have very little to do with the left these days, by their own wishes. And they’ve been losing consistently for eight years. Hmm. I wonder if those two things could be related.
hovercraft
@ThresherK:
Bobo – This is a sign of the coarsening of our society, if only people had faith.
Tweety – She’s such a good looking attractive woman, why does she have to twaalk like that, it’s not attractive!
George Will – who the fuck cares what he says, he’s full of shit!
NR
@Chyron HR: Dishonest caricatures you make up aren’t relevant anywhere except in your own head.
Immanentize
I love living in the middle of the Palliser novels.
different-church-lady
Forget it folks. It’s not a Russian Troll, it’s merely a Perpetual Dogma Machine.
DCF
@NR:
Bernie Sanders could have won. That’s the Corbyn lesson for America
Bernie, like Corbyn, offered hope that another world was possible. He’s exactly the kind of candidate the Democrats must rally behind in the future
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/09/bernie-sanders-jeremy-corbyn-lesson-for-america
Peale
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: And the sequester wasn’t the fucking stimulous. And its kind of difficult to argue that what people were really demanding in 2009 was jobs. It seemed like they were, but then in a lot of democratic strongholds in 2010 they showed up and voted for Republican governors who were running against any kind of stimulus measures, any new infrastructure, and any national healthcare. You might complain that the stimulous wasn’t enough, but starting already in VA and NJ governors runs, voters had decided that they had had enough stimulus thank you very much.
Unknown known
@hovercraft: You are right that she was a terrible campaigner, and a charisma-free speaker. To be fair (why?) she did a lot of campaigning in labour turf. Sort of like Clinton, she thought she was winning big, so she was trying to run up the score. Given that the anticipated wave of support didn’t materialize nationally, you would expect the seats she visited to end up being mostly losers for her.
patroclus
.@different-church-lady: It wouldn’t even be a “lock” if the mid-terms were tomorrow. And they’re 17 months away and a LOT can happen between now and then. The U.K. and the U.S., by and large, move similarly, but there are too many differences to be able to project anything with any certainty. But like Corbyn, it would vastly help if we could, in the American sense, “put together an effective manifesto” and “campaign well.” We should at least try to do that. And, even though it took Corbyn a looong time to do it, he has effectively unified Labour at present – it would be helpful if we learned that lesson too. We need to eventually move beyond the Hillary v. Bernie divide, the sooner the better.
different-church-lady
@Ruckus: ME: [winces from pain du jour]
FRIEND/COLLEAGUE/ASSOCIATE: What’s wrong?
ME: I made the mistake of living past 40.
different-church-lady
@DCF: Corbyn didn’t even win.
Miss Bianca
@different-church-lady: Yeah, right. That’s what Bernie Sanders and Corbyn have in common – neither one of them can demonstrably win a national election. So, naturally, that makes them darlings of the Left.
Back about 30 years ago, when I was indexing it during the Thatcher era, The Guardian was a hell of a paper. Now it’s almost as much of an embarrassment as The Nation (which also used to be a hell of magazine).
Haroldo
@different-church-lady: I would say that in the main selfishness and fear is getting worse the older a person gets these. I am a boomer by age (65), but do not share that world view with my age cohort. Has it always been the case that the [Change/Time] ratio throws most of us for loop, but in the past that ratio was low enough to manage? Or is it the case the second derivative of that ratio is increasing (i.e., the amount of change over time is increasing) and most of us just revert to the lizard brain I-got-mine-Jack-fuck off in the face of what we can’t understand completely?
Mnemosyne
@NR:
You mean you didn’t even bother to read what Flip actually said before you replied? Yeah, that sounds like you:
I’ve helpfully bolded your error for you. You’re welcome.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Oh my god, that’s hilarious. Is cheesy just the latest costume Dwight is trying on?
Can a US citizen be an MP, much less Prime Minister? I’m not steeped in British election law I admit.
Yoda Dog
`Wilmer’s real full name used in #125. NR shows up at #149. Right on time.
Chris
@different-church-lady:
I know, right?
Those fucking people. Corbyn pulled off exactly what Hillary Clinton did, a “moral” victory that showed that a lot more people liked him than the media believed, but an actual loss, with the conservative party (now in hock to a bunch of tribalist cranks, even by their standards) remaining in charge of government for the foreseeable future.
Somehow, in Corbyn’s case this proves that he’s a brilliant campaigner, the future of the party, and the voice of the people, while in Hillary’s case is proves that she’s a corrupt neoliberal corporatist Wall Street whore that we should never have nominated in the first place because she’s a terrible candidate and nobody likes her. Because reasons.
Archon
@NR: I don’t think anyone has a problem with trying to appeal to young voters. The point of contention is conjuring up some governing coalition by trying to appeal to the huge cohort of voters that would be right as rain with voting Bernie style socialism as long as Dems stop worrying about issues that don’t primarily effect white males.
Personally, even as a black man I’m open to the argument (although I’m very skeptical) that once we take care of the “economic anxiety” issues of working people through socialism, America’s second order effects would be one of a country less racist, and more tolerant and compassionate. The Bernie crowd though needs to make the argument on how and why that would happen instead of making assumptions or treating everyone that doesn’t agree with them as “neoliberal” or ad hoc to a party based on identity politics.
Mnemosyne
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
I am constantly embarrassed by my own generation. Many of my cohort caught the Reagan bug as children/young adults and have never gotten over it. Sad!
NR
@Mnemosyne: You really need to work on your reading comprehension skills. The comment I was responding to made the point that so-called “Obama haters” are a small number of people; mentioning Democrats was only part of that.
I replied by saying that for such a small number of people, you guys sure talk about them a lot.
So it was a relevant response to what was said. You were confused, but I’ve helped you out now. You’re welcome!
hovercraft
@different-church-lady:
The columnist linked to was a Bernie Bro, so the fact that Corbyn embraced hi and his policies, and came close to winning means that he would have too?
Hey I’m gloating over the Tories losses as much as the next person, but they still emerged with the most seats and are going to form the next government, the turnout for this election was the largest in decades, but Corbyn still came out over 60 seats short, so what makes him think that Bernie wouldn’t have too? If Hillary could have gotten the black vote out in the same numbers as Obama in three states, she’d be president. What makes anyone think that black voters would have turned out at Hillary levels, never mind Obama levels if he was the nominee? Forget this nonsense and focus on making sure that we have measures in place to combat the even tighter restrictions voters will face next year and get out the fucking vote, and tell Steve Thrasher and Co. that voting third party out of spite is stupid and destructive. We have to combat between the GOP, gerrymandering, voter suppression, apathy, and the media, with out self sabotaging.
Miss Bianca
@Chris: This. What could the factor be, I wonder, what could it be, that accounts for the difference in the reactions here? Other than The Woman’s *obvious* neoeoiberal shilldom…what could it be…
Mnemosyne
@NR:
No, dumbass, the “Democrats” part was the central part. It was specifically discussed in several previous comments before you replied.
The fact that you didn’t read or comprehend the previous part of the discussion is the problem here.
Aleta
OT Dog tribute by Tom Hardy (found on a freeway while shooting Lawless, often went on location with him)
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
You’d think that someone writing for a U.K. newspaper would be able to get that little detail right, wouldn’t you?
chopper
@different-church-lady:
yeah, but the fact that corbyn lost by less than people expected means he would have won if you would have spotted labour a million or so votes which means wilmer would have won if you would have spotted him a few million votes which means he totes could have won. it’s science.
Amir Khalid
@DCF:
And Bernistas complain that it’s Hillary and her supporters who won’t shut up about 2016. I’m not in the least impressed by unsupported claims that a candidate who didn’t win the nomination of his temporarily adopted party could have beaten Trump. Trump wouldn’t have been any easier on Bernie than he was on Hillary. And it’s hard to believe that Bernie would have done any better than Hillary in the rural, mostly white Republican states that handed Trump his electoral-college win.
And I don’t believe for one minute that a candidate as unaware as Bernie is of the scope of the president’s job, and of what it takes to get things done from the Oval Office, would have been up to to doing it.
Chris
@Miss Bianca:
To be fair, it’s not just them; I’ve seen a few people make the argument “we wouldn’t won more if Corbyn hadn’t been in charge!” and those people are, IMO, just as wrong as the Hillary-bashers. At best, it’s unknowable and thus not very useful.
But, yeah – this doesn’t actually make the “Corbyn brilliant successful populist Hillary terrible neolib failure!” dichotomy any smarter.
chopper
@Chris:
even though clinton actually won more votes than the other guy, unlike labour.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Chyron HR: well, since the House voted to gut Dodd-Frank, and the Senate will almost certainly follow suit, I’m sure Mitch McConnell is terrified at the imminent manifestation of mill-youngs and mill-youngs of young people who are about to gather there to stop him, in an answer to the clarion call of BERNIE! and middle-aged blog posters who think they’re the voice of a new and rising generation. Cause they’re all about “Wall Street”
Miss Bianca
@Amir Khalid: This, too. Altho’ to be scrupulously fair to The Senator from Vermont, there couldn’t be anyone *less* qualified to get things done in the Oval Office than its current occupant, so by comparison he would TOTALLY have sucked less at the president’s job.
NR
@Archon:
Which is dishonest framing. The policies Bernie Sanders advocates (as well as many other liberals, let’s not make it all about him) would benefit everyone, not just white males.
Respectfully, you have this backwards. Of course a better economy doesn’t solve racism or social injustice. The issue is that a worse economy for the people destroys your power to address racism and social injustice. We just finished a 40 year proof of this.
You can address economic injustice and social injustice at the same time. In fact, you have to, and a lot of major civil rights leaders came to the same conclusion over the years.
Case in point: The 1963 march on Washington was called the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. It’s not an either-or.
Betty Cracker
New thread upstairs for anyone who finds the present conversation tedious.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Sigh.
The previous comments were talking about people who vote for Democrats–which is not limited to people who call themselves Democrats.
Comprehension is key.
Omnes Omnibus
@NR:
Congratulations on finally realizing this.
different-church-lady
@Archon:
Appealing to young voters is a great idea. Pandering to them has problems, both immediate and long-term, that ought to be glaring, but instead are invisible to some, apparently.
I am not a black man, and you are far more charitable on this item than I will ever be.
NR
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ve known it for a long time. It’s people here who seem to be having trouble grasping the concept.
different-church-lady
@Miss Bianca: Two pounds of baking lard duct-taped together would have sucked less at the job.
different-church-lady
@Betty Cracker: Wonderful. We can all go find that one tedious!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Archon
@NR: Making social justice part of the Dems agenda will inherently make it divisive and turn off a lot of voters. We can bring in some voters talking about socialism but as soon as that agenda is tied to, say black lives matters those very same voters will vote for the economic agenda of a banana republic before aligning their vote for our version of social justice. It seems to me that a lot of Bernie supporters don’t understand that or their ideology won’t let them accept class consciousness and economics doesn’t drive voters as much as racial and cultural issues in America.
different-church-lady
@different-church-lady: Wait… rancor-free? Forget it, then.
goblue72
@Mnemosyne: We took the majority of ADEMs seat earlier this year. We will keep chipping away.
different-church-lady
@NR:
Is Sanders aware of this?
different-church-lady
@goblue72: Chip away, or run us over? Which is it?
Camembert
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
See, this is the kind of thing that baffles me. Of course the Obama Administration proposed the sequester. That’s just something that happened. I understand the folks who say that it was a policy error based in desperation. I don’t understand the folks who say it never happened.
@Peale: Republicans never, ever, ever vote on policy. They vote on hate. Democrats either show up or stay home based on policy. That’s the difference between the two constituencies. The rage comes from the folks who want to deliver mediocre policy and then expect the same numbers to show up as if they delivered on good policy. That’s not the game as it is currently played.
Miss Bianca
@Archon:
Bingo. That describes all the (white) Sanders supporters I know, (I have yet to meet any POC who are/were Sanders supporters, tho’ I am assured that they are out there). These folks get very, very tetchy when you point this troublesome fact out to them. Fact is, there are studies out there showing that the reason we can’t have nice socialist things in this country is primarily because of racism – too many white people don’t want their “hard-earned money” going to any services they see benefitting Those People. Till you address that little problem, ain’t none of us going anywhere. But whenever you try to address this troublesome fact with these folks, they basically just stick their fingers in their ears and go “la la la I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”
This thread being a case in point.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Jim, Foolish Literalist
From cubicle 13, row F, the voice of the Revolution roars!
NR
@Archon:
Sure. It absolutely will. We saw this when the Democrats lost the south after passing the Civil Rights Act.
But they held on to vast swaths of the rest of the country. It was only more recently, when they embraced neoliberal economics, that they lost the Rust Belt. The Democratic party’s neglect of economic issues has left them in a shitty position to play defense on social issues.
Economic issues are critically important. Dr. King realized this half a century ago, when he devoted the last three years of his life to working on both issues in tandem.
It’s not an either-or.
Chris
@Miss Bianca:
This is also why when Democrats win in red states, they tend to be Blue Dogs rather than the True Progressive Vanguard Of The Revolution that the Sandersites would prefer. True Economic Progressivism automatically means a big influx of money going to Those People, and the red state white populations simply don’t want that.
There’s a reason socialism never took off in the South.
Monala
@NR:
So why exactly would the Rust Belt voters, upset with Democratic neglect of economic issues, turn to Republicans who are even worse?
Bill Arnold
Only slightly off topic, a moderately interesting analysis of Russian election interference:
What to expect when you’re expecting bears – Some thoughts on the long term effects of influence ops
sample:
dogwood
@NR:
You are full of it. The Rust Belt moved away from dems because of racial and social issues. You can pretend it’s all about policy and spout all your “neoliberal”, “establishment”, “corporatist” talking points if it makes you feel better, but it’s a gross oversimplification of the complexity of voting behavior.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dogwood: in fairness, one of Obama’s top guys, I think it was Mitch Stewart, said that Obama carried MI and OH in 2012 because people remembered that the neoliberal austerian Barack Obama neglected the working classes by single-handedly rescuing the auto industry in spite of Republican opposition.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@NR:
Dems didn’t lose the rust belt – whites ran away from the Democratic party over integration of unions, workplaces, schools, neighborhoods, cities. Dems haven’t won the white vote since 1965. Wilmerites just simply refuse to acknowledge this fact.
NR
@dogwood:
Okay, riddle me this: If they’re all just a bunch of dirty racists, why did they stick with the Democrats for so long after they passed the Civil Rights Act? The South moved away in a hurry, if they’re just as racist, why didn’t they?
dogwood
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Saving the auto industry didn’t hurt, but being a phenomenal candidate and campaigner was always the cornerstone of his success. Something the people who think everything is always about policy will never accept.
NR
@Monala: Because Republicans are very good at scapegoating people who aren’t at fault for economic problems. They’ve built an entire cottage industry around it.
Captain C
@chopper: Don’t forget taking credit for their successes and blaming them for your failures.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
How sheltered an existence do you have to live to think health insurance is not an economic issue? trust fund radicals are the worst.
dogwood
@NR:
Well, Ohio is part of the Rust belt, and Obama’s two wins there were not par for the course. Michigan is moving right due in part to the declining population of the Detroit metro area. Voter suppression laws coupled with an effective Russian disinformation campaign played very well in the Rust Belt which was a high value target for the Chris Kobach movement and the Ruskies.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
So you missed the whole Reagan era, or you’re just pretending it never happened?
NR
@dogwood: So…. It wasn’t racial and social issues, then?
Camembert
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Uh, I wasn’t the “Dem over 45” in that story either.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
So you missed what happened after that?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mnemosyne: also, Nixon and probably a dozen anti-labor, pro-free trade, pro-trickle-down Senators and Governors, and too many Congresscriters to count.
Captain C
@Corner Stone: No, that’s Classic Liberalism. Neoliberalism is any cheese you don’t like.
dogwood
@NR:
You are such a fool. Racial and social issues are always at the core of things. If you can stop POC from voting with draconian laws, and give theRussians access to voter registration files then the racial/culture warriors will win the day. Something you and your ilk don’t give a damn about.
Camembert
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: #SinglePayerNow
chopper
@NR:
whites in the rust belt sure as hell didn’t.
Camembert
@dogwood: There are three interlocking systems of oppression in the US: Patriarchy, white supremacy, and class. If you leave one out, you’re hosing over everybody, no matter how good you are on the other two.
The Bernie-ite focus on class is a reaction to the categorical refusal of the New Dems to acknowledge their fealty to the destructive rich. It’ll come around after a cycle or two in which the Dems promise improvements on wages and working conditions, then deliver. That seems to be starting now.
We live in a both/and world.
NR
@chopper: So, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin didn’t vote Democratic in every presidential election from 1992 to 2012? I just imagined that, it didn’t really happen?
NR
@dogwood:
Except when they’re not. Like, I don’t know, when Democrats keep winning elections even after they pass the Civil Rights Act?
different-church-lady
@Bill Arnold: I am skeptical: people with a taste for hatred and racism will always crave more, and they don’t care who the waiter is. The spooks on our side might be better able to combat it, and the news media will be able to see it for what it is, but the diners will just keep eating it anyway.
geg6
@Omnes Omnibus:
Now if only Wilmer would.
chopper
@NR:
oh, i forgot the civil rights act passed in 1992. my bad.
Captain C
@DCF: Once again, any two or three of the following
of attack ads would sink any Dem candidate. Likely, all would have been used, plus, I’m sure, other things I haven’t thought of:
1) Vox Tax Calculator: We would have been saturated with ads pointing out how working class families would pay $500 more/month (if honest, much more if not) so that those people could get free stuff.
2) “I don’t know”: Bernie’s Daily News interview answer to “how would you break up the banks? Plus every other time he gave that answer to a policy question.
3) “Bernie walks away”: Every time he walked away from a tough question. Probably put into a montage, and implied that he can’t take the heat and quickly leaves the kitchen.
4) Tax Returns: Lots of ads along the lines of “Bernie claims to want transparency in politics, but refuses to release his taxes and finances. What is he hiding? How can an honest politician afford 3 luxury houses and estates?”
5) Crooked wife: Ads along the lines of “Bernie claims to be against golden parachutes, but his wife got a $200K one for leaving a college which she ultimately bankrupted. And now she’s under investigation for fraud.”
6) Communist/America-hater: Ads pointing out his past criticisms of America from Cuba and Nicaragua (select demographics only) and his running as an elector for the SWP, “a party so extreme Lenin and Stalin rejected it.”
7) Freeloader: Ads about how he didn’t have a real job until his mid-30s, how he stole electricity from his neighbors, got kicked out of a commune for laziness, and how he ran a carpentry business while not knowing the first thing about carpentry and had to ask the hardware store how to do jobs he contracted for.
8) Pedo perv: Ads distorting his ’70s writings on child sex and rape fantasy to make him seem like a pedo rapist.
If I can think of these, I’m sure the Rethugs could have as well.
geg6
@Monala:
Oooo, oooo, I know!
They are fucking racist, misogynist idiots! I know, because I live in that very Rust Belt and have for 58 years.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@chopper: also, too, Ohio, Indiana and West Virginia are no longer part of the Rust Belt.
ETA: and Russ Feingold is apparently a neoliberal, or New Democrat, or whatever the Wilmerite Buzzword Bingo Word of the Day is.
ETA: And Nina Turner, who lost a statewide race in Ohio by almost 25 points. Must be all her neoliberalism and shit
NR
By the way, here’s something else to consider. Poll results show that 67% of Americans think the Democratic party is out of touch with their concerns. Two-thirds of Americans.
Oh, but that’s just racist white people, you’ll say. Of course they hate the Democratic party. Well, no, the poll results show that 60% of non-white Americans say that the Democratic party is out of touch with their concerns.
Oh, well it must just be misogynist men, you’ll say. Stands to reason they’d hate Democrats. Well, no, the poll results show that 59% of American women say the Democratic party is out of touch with their concerns.
And it’s not just Republicans. 75% of independents and even 44% of Democrats say that the Democratic party is out of touch with their concerns. Americans across income levels and levels of educational attainment say that the Democratic party is out of touch.
You’d think the fact that very nearly a majority of Democrats believe that their party is out of touch would be cause for some very serious soul-searching. But nope, around here, you guys have all the answers already. Move along, there’s nothing to see here.
dogwood
@NR:
White folks in the rust belt left long ago. Democrats could still win in that area because POC carried them over the top. It doesn’t work that way anymore. Have you heard of voter ID laws? Perhaps you haven’t, because Bernie.doesnt give a shit about voting rights. He doesn’t give a shit about Russian influence either because he, like Trump, was a beneficiary of all that hacking and disinformation.
Captain C
@Captain C: OK that was intended as lines of attack ads.
NR
@chopper:
Are you slow?
It passed before 1992. If voters were going to abandon the Democratic party because of the Civil Rights Act, they would have done it before 1992.
chopper
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
but that’s just, like, you’re opinion, man.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I keep thinking, he’s eleven fucking years old. Then I remember he’s been trolling like this for almost ten years.
NR
@dogwood:
Hmm.
Alabama: 67% non-Hispanic white.
Pennsylvania: 79.5% non-Hispanic white.
Seems like there’s a much higher percentage of white folks in the Rust Belt than there are in the South. So why wasn’t Pennsylvania voting like Alabama all this time?
Captain C
@Monala: Must have been those identity politics.
chopper
@NR:
i was being sarcastic, you halfwit.
from when the civil rights act was passed it took until about 1992 for michigan, wisconsin and pennsylvania to start voting for the democrat. ohio is of course still bouncing back and forth. the idea that people in those states ‘stuck with the democrats’ after 1965 is the opposite of what happened.
geg6
@NR:
You know nothing about the Rust Belt, obviously. PA voted for the Dem only because of Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. My own county used to be strictly run by Dems, but that started changing back in the late 60s. Our long-serving and staunchly Dem rep actually switched parties during the Reagan era. Now the place is mostly populated with Greatest/Silent Generation oldsters, who are as racist as they come and middle-aged middle and upper middle class Gen Xers, who pretend they aren’t racist fucks but, being that they all worship St. Ronnie, we know they are just as racist as their doddering bigot parents but make a better show of hiding it in public. We have less than 8% POC here, but to hear both cohorts talk about it, you’d think that their greatest fear is that Nat Turner is going to come and murder them in their sleep. Either that or the Skeery Mooslims! Youngs and Boomers, generally, get/got the hell out of there while the getting is good. And rarely come back. And when they do, they settle in Pittsburgh. Not that I blame them. You know nothing about these places or these people. Quit talking about them as if you do. You only embarrass yourself. Just quit it.
NR
@chopper:
Pennsylvania and Michigan both voted Democratic in 1968.
1972 was a nationwide Republican landslide.
And in 1976, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin both voted Democratic, and the Republican candidate was from Michigan so we can’t really count that.
Wisconsin even voted Dem in 1988, when most of the country voted R.
So no, it didn’t take until 1992.
geg6
@NR:
It was. You are an idiot. Two cities kept it Dem. Two fucking cities.
NR
@geg6:
And what the hell does that have to do with the claim that “whites in the Rust Belt didn’t stick with the Democratic party?”
Pennsylvania is 79.5% non-Hispanic white. If whites there had voted the same way that whites in the South do, the state would have gone Republican by even bigger margins than Alabama since 1965.
And yet it didn’t. So maybe there’s more going on here than racial resentment, hmm?
Yoda Dog
@NR:
Funny that is exactly what I say to myself whenever you show up on this blog.
NR
@geg6: Oh, okay. So cities make the difference, not race.
Good to know.
Bill Arnold
@Captain C:
Thank you for that; nice and compact and helpful at driving home the reality of political tactics. Bookmarked.
dogwood
@NR:
Stop it.
NR
@dogwood: Stop what? Posting facts?
Pennsylvania is whiter than Alabama. That’s a fact. And yet until last year, it had a long record of voting more Democratic. That’s also a fact.
chopper
@NR:
from 68 to 92, michigan went dem once, in 1968. in that same time ohio only voted dem once, in 76. this is your fucking evidence that these guys ‘stuck with the dems’ after the civil rights act was passed? one out of six goddamn elections?
in that time penn did it twice, 68 and 76. wisconsin did it twice, in 76 and 88.
if at best 2 out of 6 elections is your definition of ‘sticking with the democrats’ then you really are a goddamn buffoon.
geg6
@NR:
You don’t know a thing about Pennsylvania. Yes, it’s mostly white. Everywhere except in the two cities. And the voting population of those two cities (and their environs) are larger than the population in the rest of the entire state. PA is a mostly rural state, filled with big empty spaces the population of which are white cracker assholes.
different-church-lady
@NR: AND FUCKIN’ TRUMP IS?
My point being: PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY HAVE A TRULY FUCKED UP SENSE OF WHAT THEIR CONCERNS ARE.
different-church-lady
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Math still works.
prostratedragon
@Ruckus: True.
From the late Mose Allen, “My Brain”
NR
@chopper:
1972 and 1984 were massive Republican landslides where the whole country voted R.
In 1976, the Republican candidate was from Michigan.
That leaves 1980 and 1988.Which, while not on the level of 1972 or 1984, were also significant Republican wins with big electoral margins.
But anyway, if your argument is that the Rust Belt got pissed at the Democrats for passing the Civil Rights Act and only got over it starting in 1992, I’ll simply ask, why didn’t the same thing happen in the South?
NR
@geg6:
Okay. And what does that have to do with the fact that Pennsylvania is whiter than Alabama, yet votes more Democratic? I’m talking about the whole state, not Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.
NR
@different-church-lady: Trump scored poorly on the poll as well, though not quite as bad as the Democratic party.
But anyway, if your slogan is gonna be “Vote for us, we understand what you need better than you do,” I think you’re gonna have a bad time.
chopper
@NR:
and? what’s your point, if they hadn’t voted R in 72 and 84 they would have voted D? well, duh.
this is all a big fucking squid cloud because you got called on saying something stupid.
after the civil rights act the rust belt by and large went GOP for almost 30 years. if they ‘stuck with’ anyone, it was the republicans, not the democrats. i mean, seriously, you said something wrong and stupid. stop trying to argue as if it was right.
because white people in the south are even more racist-ass than white people in the rust belt.
Major Major Major Major
@chopper: yeah, I gotta say, that from NR is the most egregious No True Scotsman I’ve seen in a while.
Yoda Dog
@chopper:
Doesn’t have to be any more complicated than that. But you can’t capture the varying enthusiasm for hating Others in a fucking poll, so this concept will be far beyond fuckface’s comprehension skills.
NR
@chopper:
After the Civil Rights Act, the whole country “by and large went GOP for almost 30 years.” The Rust Belt was not unique in that respect.
1968: 301 Republican Electoral votes (close election)
1972: 520 Republican EVs
1976: 240 Republican EVs (close election)
1980: 489 Republican EVs
1984: 525 Republican EVs
1988: 426 Republican EVs
But if you want to talk about saying something stupid, nothing compares to your claim that the Rust Belt went Republican until 1992 because they were mad at the Democrats over the Civil Rights Act, then got over it in 1992 and started voting Dem again. At least you attempted to address my question about that:
Wow, so it turns out that there are other concerns than race that motivate people! Even white people! Which is what I’ve been saying all along. I’m glad we’re in agreement here.
chopper
@Major Major Major Major:
it’s like the lameass argument these same guys have about how bernie totally would have won the general if he had won the primary. like hey, man, if you just spot the guy a couple million votes he totally could have done it.
chopper
@NR:
this doesn’t exactly help your argument that the rust belt ‘stuck with the democrats’ during that period of time.
seriously, you’re a dumbass.
Major Major Major Major
@chopper: “if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle,” my mom always put it.
chopper
@NR:
also:
i never said otherwise. after the civil rights acts of the 60s as well as the continuing eroding of segregationist policies by the federal courts white people everywhere lost their shit. hence why the whole country, including the rust belt, “stuck with the republicans” afterwards.
NR
@chopper: Except I wasn’t just talking about that period of time. I was talking about ever since the Civil Rights Act. Do try to keep up.
If you compare Alabama to Pennsylvania during all the elections since 1965, it’s indisputable which state was more Democratic.
NR
@chopper: And I’ve never denied that there was a lot of racial resentment and backlash as a result of those things.
All I’ve said is that there have been other factors at play as well.
chopper
@NR:
and now the goalposts move, almost as if on cue.
so the rust belt “stuck with the democrats” after the CRA even though the rust belt actually went republican for the better part of the next 30 years, because alabama was “more republican than pennsylvania”. that’s just…stupid.
NR
@chopper:
I’m not moving the goalposts, you fucking moron. I’m saying the same thing I said at the beginning.
You’re the one who moved the goalposts when you came in and said that only what happened before 1992 counts.
Camembert
This is the part where we note that the vast majority of those Establishment Dems who supposedly care more about voter suppression than Bernie voted to defund ACORN while Bernie didn’t, right?
chopper
@NR:
you’re totally moving the goalposts. just because a rust belt state was ‘less republican’ than fucking alabama during the time when both states were voting GOP doesn’t mean the former was ‘sticking with the democrats’. it means both were pretty solidly going with the GOP.
look, you’re the one who brought up 1992, saying that the rust belt stuck with the dems after the CRA because hey look, they voted dem 1992-2012. i pointed out that there was a long-ass time between the CRA and 1992 when the rust belt went GOP instead, which means no, they didn’t fucking ‘stick with the democrats after the CRA’. i mean, i guess if you just ignore the first almost thirty years then sure, but that’s like saying bill cosby isn’t a rapist right now cause let’s just ignore all the raping he did in the past.
voting GOP for almost 30 years isn’t ‘sticking with the democrats’, no matter how the fuck alabama feels about things.
is this starting to sink in? do you need a diagram?
NR
@chopper: Pennsylvania voted Dem in two of the six presidential elections from 1968 to 1992. Alabama voted Dem in none of them. So yes, there is a difference.
And even in the big Republican wins, there were other factors at play than racial resentment, like say the fact that we had double-digit inflation in 1980.
Oh, but I forgot. No one ever votes on economic issues, all they care about is skin color. How could I have been so wrong?
Pittsburgh Mike
Medicare for All is pretty easy to switch to: just drop the Medicare eligibility age by 3-5 years for every calendar year that goes by. A gradual phase in will ensure that any significant problem will get caught before it becomes catastrophic. A frankly, probably nothing will go wrong, anyway.
chopper
@NR:
so voting GOP in 4 out of 6 elections is ‘sticking with the democrats’ because alabama went 6 out of 6? that’s fucking daffy.
even if we completely ignore the reasons why, ignore racial issues or anything else entirely, your assertion is just butt-ass wrong on it’s face. voting GOP in 4 or 5 out of 6 straight elections after an event is not, by any reasonable definition, ‘sticking with the democrats’ after said event. your lame-ass reasoning like ‘well, a bunch of other states were voting republican back then!’ doesn’t change that. it just means that a bunch of other states weren’t ‘sticking with the democrats’ either.
chopper
@NR:
oh and by the way, you’re also butt-ass wrong about alabama. alabama voted democrat in 1976. so between 68 and 92, alabama voted dem as many times as ohio and michigan. i guess that means by your logic alabama really stuck with the democrats after the civil rights act, amirite?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@NR: @NR: stupid and dishonest. Your father was right to ignore you all those years.
Applejinx
@Camembert:
As another GenXer who hangs with Millenials, good lord, me too.
chopper
@Applejinx:
i’m a boomer what hangs out with millennials. they all say i’m “FR AF”. wait til i show them my 8 track tapes!
Groucho48
@NR:
Which is pretty much what they’ve been doing all along. Except for the whole charter school thing, the eight years under Obama and the policies proposed by Clinton were very beneficial to young folks. Heck, just keeping kids on their parent’s insurance until they are 26 is huge. Obamacare is very good for younger generations, as us old folks were lucky enough to grow up when most jobs came with good benefits. Minimum wage hikes? What age group benefits most from that? Hmmm. Student loan fixes? Most old folks don’t have student loans. The fight to save SS and Medicare and expand SCHIP?
Have you been paying any attention at all?