Most coverage of Comey’s testimony last week focused on the former director repeatedly calling the president a liar and the liar-in-chief’s subsequent efforts to retaliate and obfuscate. But we shouldn’t forget Comey’s remarks about Russian interference in the U.S. election:
HEINRICH: The president has repeatedly talked about the Russian investigation into the U.S. — or Russia’s involvement in the U.S. Election cycle as a hoax and fake news. Can you talk a little bit about what you saw as FBI director and, obviously, only the parts that you can share in this setting that demonstrate how serious this action actually was and why there was an investigation in the first place?
COMEY: Yes, sir. There should be no fuzz on this whatsoever. The Russians interfered in our election during the 2016 cycle. They did with purpose. They did it with sophistication. They did it with overwhelming technical efforts. It was an active measures campaign driven from the top of that government. There is no fuzz on that. It is a high confidence judgment of the entire intelligence community and the members of this committee have seen the intelligence. It’s not a close call. That happened. That’s about as unfake as you can possibly get. It is very, very serious, which is why it’s so refreshing to see a bipartisan focus on that. This is about America, not about a particular party.
I don’t share Comey’s optimism about a “bipartisan focus” on this issue. Trump refuses to believe the Russians had anything to do with his election because he perceives it would diminish his glorious Electoral College victory.
Most Republicans in congress aren’t outright denying that Russia interfered yet, but they are downplaying it, even the so-called Russia hawks like Lil’ Marco. If the evolving view on Fox News and elected Republicans’ own spineless behavior in the past are leading indicators, the party will soon officially join Trump on De Nile river cruise.
That’s why the appointment of a special counselor, while a good first step, isn’t sufficient. We need an independent commission that is accountable to the public to explore the interference issue and develop a set of conclusions and an action plan for preventing future activities that undermine our democracy.
Link to Comey’s testimony here.
trollhattan
I recall Comey then went on to reference Reagan’s shining city on the hill. If that isn’t basically yelling at Republicans to wake the fvck up I don’t know what is.
Another Scott
What undercuts Comey’s statement you quote above, though, is he put his fingers on the scale to make it much more likely that Russia’s actions would succeed via his July and October, 2016 public pronouncements. And his (apparent) inability to reign-in the NYC office that (apparently) saw its mission as to bring down the Democratic candidate.
Even if Trump ends up leaving office early with Comey’s help, it will not erase the fact that Comey’s actions helped sway the election and put Trump in office in the first place…
Grrr…
Cheers,
Scott.
PsiFighter37
Surprised we haven’t had a thread yet on Saint Wilmer’s megachurch-style townhall yesterday. That asshole needs to shut the fuck up and go away.
Mike Furlan
Mentioning Reagan, who conspired with the Iranians to win the 1980 election, is supposed to make Republicans repudiate Trump for conspiring with the Russians to win the 2016 election? How does that work?
Also too, Oliver North was, as Trump would say, completely exonerated for his drug and weapons dealing “with terrorists.” Reagan, like Trump used the “I’m too stupid to know what the hell is going on” defense in that one.
Baud
@PsiFighter37: For some reason, none of the liberal blogs on my RSS feed are covering it. I hope that’s a good sign. But I also don’t know what happened.
Jim Bales
Betty,
Thank you for the Comey quote! Do you have a link to the source that you could post?
Best,
Jim Bales
J R in WV
Reposted from lower thread, more appropriate here:
I have no doubt that Mr Eric Garner is right that Russia/Republicans worked on their election twisting plan for years, and that it unfolded to their advantage.
I don’t know enough about the voting procedures in PA, OH, WI, MI etc to agree that actual voting totals were hacked, although as a 30 year IT software professional I AM sure that some facets of polling and election management could be hacked, even if actual voting machines or tabulating machines (totally different devices with varying technology and connectivity) were not all hacked.
Really, tabulating machines would be the preferable target, and you only need a small percentage of those to turn enough votes in a close election. Until late in the cycle I was expecting a wave election for Hillary, but the Comey e-mail nonsense gave me an unpleasant start.
The phoning I was doing into Ohio for Hillary also didn’t go that well, many people I called had been called already, repeatedly, which the software is supposed to prevent, but did not. That would be an easy hack, and productive – piss off her best voters? Oh, yeah, boss, that’s a great idea!
One person I called was actually an employee of the campaign… how does that happen??? It shouldn’t EVER!!! So I think DNC’s software tools were hacked badly. Hard to win under those circumstances.
So by election day, after we voted, I was surfing the web and running the Broadcast TV application on my laptop, how we watch TV here, and by 10 pm I was done, went to bed depressed and certain the Trumpstain was on the verge of winning a slim majority. Turned out he didn’t, but was elected president of the Electoral College. Damm!
WarMunchkin
@Another Scott: This was the moment James Comey became President.
Corner Stone
As was said on AMJoy show this morning, D’s aren’t really interested in pushing too hard on this matter (in the open) because it will cast shade on the previous administration. And R’s see any progress on this as delegitimizing their party and platform.
So, in a way Comey is right that there is a bipartisan focus.
Feebog
In my view, the appointment of a special counsel is far more important than a Commission. There will be prosecutions, and I think that will draw more attention than an independent commission. We can accomplish much of a commission’s work if Democrats take back the House in 2018 and Adam Schaffer becomes the Chair of the House Intelligence Committee.
trollhattan
@PsiFighter37:
Our media all descended on the suburban mall where the anti-Muslimmers shouted at clouds yesterday. Wilmer’s off the radar, so maybe an aluminium foil hat would help.
Tenar Arha
@J R in WV: Prove there was interference with the registration databases and you have the orange one’s voting majority in the electoral college right there.
ETA That NSA leak to the Intercept is really damning. He won, but the game was hacked.
ETA2 of course we were hacked too
trollhattan
@J R in WV:
This had never occurred to me before but yeah, attacking the GOTV machinery would seem like a brilliant and not necessarily even illegal strategy. Dayumn….
ruemara
I see Trump as undermining it because he knows it’s true and he knows it’s collusion. Just like his fellow republicans. They’re all treasonous bastards. They just had differing motives and levels of collusion.
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
Saw the repeated calls in 2008 for Obama as well as 2016 for Clinton. We had lists and they were updated on the fly but it didn’t seem to make any difference. In 2008 though the vast majority of people that I talked to who had gotten several calls were happy to talk. Not so much in 2016.
I’d bet that if hacking was taking place phone call software used by Clinton would have been a great place to put some negative influence. As well as waste a lot of time and effort.
Patricia Kayden
Who would be responsible for setting up the independent commission? Perhaps enough pressure on Republicans on a whole could see that happen.
Betty Cracker
@Jim Bales: Link added at bottom of the post.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PsiFighter37: apparently by unspoken agreement we’re not talking about it, to avoid the infestation. But Yamiche Alcindor and Dave Weigel are among those covering and tweeting and… hoo boy.
Ruckus
@ruemara:
Don’t think the motives are all that different, they want the power of money above all else.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: I’m not interested in posting about it because it’s counterproductive. Can’t speak for anyone else, but the way I look at it, what possible good can come from endlessly rehashing the fucking primary pie fight?
Enough people will either get over it, join the only party that has a chance of stopping the corrupt fascist pricks, or they won’t. Judging by the people I know IRL rather than Internet trolling volume, I think they will.
Baud
@Betty Cracker: I agree with everything you said. But I’m surprised that, apparently, other blogs feel the same way. Still, the news vacuum from my usual sources is kind of eerie.
Adam L Silverman
@J R in WV: It’s Garland. Eric Garner was one of the African American man extra judicially and illegally killed by police.
Garland’s very long twitter storms are interesting. And have a logical consistency, but he seems to have not existed on social media prior to the election and his massive “time for some game theory” introductory post.
I don’t have the connections in the IC to know if he is who he claims to be. Or if he is even correct.
nycmt
@trollhattan: uh, there is Voting Rights act caselaw establishing felony interference with voter turnout as recently as 2008 in New Hampshire. I can do an hypothetical charge-sheet right now on these facts – conspiracy to violate VRA, criminal hacking, seditious conspiracy, etc
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: Fifty quatloos says Hayes has at least two segments on it next week. Joy Reid’s not gonna bother, and the rest of the MSNBC weekend crew is probably desperate to get Hugh Hewitt into a remote studio somewhere.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
Apparently the new Hillary crime that the Broflakes are all up in arms about are some out-of-context passages from her 1996 book talking about how the governor’s mansion in Arkansas used prison labor while she was First Lady of Arkansas.
Funny how every time Trump puts his foot in it, the online Sanders dead-enders just happen to find something new to attack Hillary about, isn’t it? Almost like they’re desperate to distract people on the left from Trump’s traitorous collusion with Russia … ?
But I’m sure they’re only running interference for Trump because they’re so economically anxious.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Funny cuz it’s true.
Mnemosyne
@Baud:
Since I’ve suspected for a long time that the Sanders dead-enders are actually right-wing Paulistas, I suspect that their contacts are all on the libertarian right, not the left. The blogs you usually read are probably barely aware the convention is even happening because they’re not in the loop.
Baud
@Mnemosyne: This is the thing in Chicago, right? It’s been marketed for a while now. I doubt people don’t know about it.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: The only NBC/MSNBC people interested in getting Hewitt into a studio are Andrew Lack, Chuck Todd, and Hewitt.
Also, why does he always look like he’s stoned out of his gourd when they have him on?
D58826
also more appropriate here so reposting The GOP is in full cover up mode. Sen. Lee on TV this morning said he has seen nothing criminal therefore time to move on.
The entire thing is just exhausting. So many scandals, so many tweets. Don jr saying that the old man did say to Comey he hoped he would drop the investigation. While the old man is claiming the conversation never happened.
I said this yesterday and will repeat it again. Comey in a way is a side show. It is a minor thread in the larger Russia story. Therefore the D’s should offer the R’s a trade – the D’s and Mueller will drop the investigations into Der Fuhrer’s personal conduct in exchange for a full no hold bared investigation/independent commission into what the Russia did in 2016 and how to prevent it from happen in 2018 and the future. you would have to build some GOP upfront deliverables into the process. Legislation would make Mueller dropping (or maybe not releasing) his investigation contingent upon independent commission being set up and real honest/Independent folks named to it, a multi-year budget and staff.
Otherwise the he-said vs he-said and what really is a leak drama will continue and the real threat to our system, i.e. Russian hacking, will simply fade away. Now maybe if the Russian hack the 2020 election and get a D elected to WH then the GOP will get religion on the topic.
In reality with free and fair elections Trump will pass. If the elections are not free and fair due to Russian meddling there is no way to know whether any of our elected officials are working for the US or the Russians. And that strikes at the heart of our democracy.
Mnemosyne
@Baud:
But it was invitation-only. That means that the usual blog suspects on the left aren’t there to write about it, because they probably weren’t invited.
Weigel is there as a journalist, plus he still has a ton of libertarian connections.
sphex
@Adam L Silverman:
Thank you for that.
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman: He seems a little Mensch-y to me.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: @Baud: Apparently he was his usual charming self:
cmorenc
@Another Scott:
Yeah, but we have to take where we are, not what should have been – and where we are is that Comey is a key asset toward exposing, containing, and curtailing Trump, and toward building the political momentum to force Trump’s undoing. There’s nothing Comey himself could do, nor that we could do, at this point to unring the July and October bells he rung on Clinton but didn’t timely do so on Trump pre-election. That’s sadly a done deal. It’s in Trump’s interest, not ours at this point to discredit Comey, and pissing on Comey won’t help our cause one bit in the scheme of regaining political advantage toward 2018 and 2020. The one valuable thing to gain from Comey is a cautionary example to any future Democratic President to be wary of giving such key assignments as FBI director to a supposedly “fair-minded” less ideological Republican in the supposed interests of adding bipartisanship to their Administration.
Baud
@Mnemosyne: Oh, that’s funny. But whatever. I agree with Betty. It sucks that this is out there, but we just have to add it to the list of things we have to deal with.
Mnemosyne
@Baud:
If you’re really curious, you can probably find a few people on Kos posting from the convention since they’re infiltrated by the Paulistas. But, like I said, I think the usual suspects aren’t talking about it because none of them are there.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
Well…… they are. They aren’t/won’t be reaping the benefits that conservatives will be with all the law repeals and changes that they want. Tinkle down works, as long as one is will to take a golden shower. And until the 1% have everything, at which point they will quit paying congress and lobbyists to steal it for them.
Baud
@Mnemosyne: Definitely not that curious.
sdhays
@Adam L Silverman: Because that’s the only way he can mimic coherence?
TriassicSands
Which, it must be noted, was the greatest in EC history, since it is nearly impossible for a Republican to win in the EC (so sayeth Donald the Trump). Why, since 1980 we have had six presidents and only four of those have been Republicans — proof positive of the near impossibility of a Republican winning in th Electoral College. And in two elections the Republican lost the popular vote, again demonstrating how much harder it is for a Republican to win the EC.
@Feebog:
Schiff, not Schaffer — or is that an autocorrection error?
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: So you are saying that both sides do it. I disagree.
Adam L Silverman
@D58826: No. Because in a bipartisan appointed independent commission under Congress’s imprimatur, there is no way to compel testimony from the President. Remember for the 9-11 Commission they had to negotiate the interview with President Bush and VP Cheney. In this situation/dynamic the President has significant power to set the terms. And he did. No official transcription service. No audio and/or video of the interview. One classified note taker from the 9-11 Commission side. One classified note taker from the White House staff. The interview was classified. And President Bush and VP Cheney were interviewed together.
sdhays
@Ruckus:
I haven’t seen this before, but I am stealing it.
dogwood
@Mnemosyne:
When I saw this thread I moseyed on over to Kos and the gloriouness of Bernie’s shindig is being discussed.
Mnemosyne
@schrodingers_cat:
Nah, I think she’s just saying she doesn’t want to scatter troll bait all over our nice blog today.
BrianM
@Mnemosyne:
Um, if they waited for a time when Trump hadn’t just put his foot in it, they’d never have a chance to speak. … expresses no opinion about the desirability of such a result …
Mnemosyne
@dogwood:
Best case scenario is that the dead-enders break off into their own party and stop infesting ours. Sadly, it probably won’t happen, because the primary drivers are libertarians and libertarians have no clue how to build anything. They only know how to take an existing infrastructure and run it into the ground.
Adam L Silverman
@sphex: You’re welcome. I’m not saying what he tweets doesn’t make some sense. And his most recent rah rah, buck up troopers storm from yesterday was nice in the rah rah, buck up troopers sort of way. There are just people who are better sourced. Schindler, Clint Watts, McMullin, Jack Rice, Malcolm Nance, Rick Wilson (from when he was on the Air Force staff and his political work), etc.
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: But she did imply that both sides want to rehash the primaries. I disagree with that opinion. Its not the primaries that need rehashing but the malign propaganda that BS keeps mouthing about “corrupt Dems” that will cost us again in 2018 if that nonsense is not nipped in the bud, right now.
Baud
@BrianM: Good point.
@Mnemosyne: Wasn’t Cornell West starting a new party?
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: I’m sure he’s a good guy.
schrodingers_cat
@Adam L Silverman: The whole tweet storm about Game Theory was a load of BS. I guess Game Theory is the new Quantum Mechanics!@Corner Stone: The Game theory stuff was gibberish, mostly.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
How would you do that?
Mnemosyne
@BrianM:
True, but suddenly becoming indignant about passages you just found in a book that Hillary wrote over 20 years ago seems a little suspicious to me. If this was all so horrible and upsetting and should have disqualified her as the nominee, why not bring it up during the primary last year? Why wait until the Russia investigation is heating up? ?
Ruckus
@sdhays:
That’s been around since raygun. People who understood what was trickling down on them made it up. IOW I stole it from someone else fair and square, please feel absolutely free to do the same.
Barbara
@Baud: Re: The holy man from Vermont — Read The Guardian. Still a sanctimonious scold who sounds like he woke up from a 50 year deep sleep. The only good thing is that there seem to be some people running for local seats as Democrats. For the record, I don’t hate him but think his perspective is mostly dated and very narrow. I also resent his determination to stay above the fray and poke those with legitimate disagreements in the eye.
pamelabrown53
@Baud:
Daily Kos: Wreck List.
Mnemosyne
@schrodingers_cat:
Well, some of us (myself included) have a bad habit of getting into poo-flinging fights here. Another one happened yesterday. So I think she’s just trying to avoid having those happen two days in a row.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: The least the Democratic party can do is stop giving BS a platform from which he can bash them. The whole Perez-BS shit show for example, was counterproductive. If BS criticizes Dems, he should get a push back. Not saying anything let’s his nonsense stand.
Baud
@Barbara: The Guardian is outside my safe space when it comes to Wilmer news.
@pamelabrown53: I have daily Kos front pagers on my RSS feed, but I don’t follow their wreck list. The front pagers are silent.
dogwood
@Mnemosyne:
If Bernie really cared about healthcare in America right now, he’d at least take a break from his campaign events and go full tilt boogie on the Senate bill and all the shenanigans surrounding it. He won’t vote for the bill, but he wants it to pass because it’s another rallying cry against Democrats. He’s a lot like Bannon and the alt right. He believes chaos is the path to power for him.
Adam L Silverman
@sdhays: I have no idea. He can’t get through 3 paragraphs without contradicting himself. I get he was a staffer in the Reagan Administration before he went on to be a pundit, but he seems to have a tenuous understanding of how government actually works/the process. He seems largely to be there for sort of a bland, largely congenial tribalism.
I have no problem with conservative, or perhaps better giving what we’re seeing with conservatism, center right and right of center voices being represented. But to do that NBC/MSNBC already has a solid stable of folks. Nicole Devenish Wallace, Michael Steele (the former RNC head, not Boehner’s former chief of staff – though he’s on occasionally), Elise Jordan (who is Michael Hastings’ widow), another young conservative political consultant, Scarborough even.
Corner Stone
@schrodingers_cat: String Theory. My thesis:
Unintended Chaos
Can the Universe Push on a String
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: Fair point. I think it’s hard for Dems to deal with the situation without getting distracted from the fight against Trump and the GOP.
Adam L Silverman
@BrianM: Also the DPRK launches a missile or does a nuclear test.
Corner Stone
***SWOONS***
Brachiator
@PsiFighter37:
CNN reports that Sanders spoke to 4,000 people at the second annual People’s Suumit in Chicago. No mention on how many people attended last year.
I got no problem with Sanders speaking. I wish he would attack Trump more than he attacks the Democrats.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodingers_cat: I wasn’t endorsing it. I was just noting that was when Mr. Garland appeared on the scene.
Barbara
@Baud: Yes, it just became the same for me, but I was reading for the vicarious schadenfreude regarding the UK election fallout.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
Are you trying to say that BS is not the savior some think he is? Why that’s……. that’s, no it isn’t blasphemy, it’s…… no it isn’t bullshit, is it true? Could it possibly be that BS isn’t who he says he is and for sure isn’t who morons think he is? Why yes, yes he is.
schrodingers_cat
@Corner Stone: That’s a great start. It needs a momentum and an optics somewhere, oh and entropy!
Political punditry: Using physics jargon that you are clueless about it.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: If I thought there was something worth discussing coming out of that circle jerk in Chicago, i.e., something that would lead to myself and the readers and commenters here learning something, taking action or even deriving entertainment, I’d do a post on it, and troll onslaught be damned. But there’s not, IMO. It’s a fart in the whirlwind, and a boring, stale, pointless fart at that.
HRA
The title I saw on the BS piece at FB was Take down Trump, Takeover the Democrat Party.
No, I did not read the article. It’s irritating, annoying , etc. to have to add to my many months of personal distress about the election and the results.
dogwood
@Brachiator:
If he attacked Trump more than Democrats, his following would be significantly reduced. So wishing for the impossible is kinda a waste of time.
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
Yes it is exactly a boring, stale, pointless fart, perpetuated by a boring, stale, pointless old fart.
I’m just wondering if the smell that lingers will go away without some windows being opened and some fresh air being let in.
Baud
@HRA: That title isn’t offensive to me. Factions have a right to compete within the party system. The pertinent questions are (l) how much effort are you really putting into taking down Trump and (2) how do you respond if you can’t achieve the takeover? Judging by history, the answers to those questions aren’t positive.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: Bernie Sanders is Trump Lite, long on rhetoric and short on policy. His goal is to destroy the Democratic Party and remake it in his own image just like T did with the Republican Party. He is always shitting on Democrats and pooh poohing their achievements, while making excuses for T and his base. Ignoring him is a mistake as is making nice with him.
sphex
@Adam L Silverman:
Thank you. I may be in need of some rah rah these days- and I know I’m not alone. But thank you especially for the list of more credible sources, some of which are new to me.
And since I generally just lurk, I’ll also take advantage of this opportunity to thank you for everything you contribute to this blog and the conversations on it. I value your opinion and insights immensely (and was secretly hoping I’d get *your* input, specifically, on that rant.)
WaterGirl
OT, but I am skimming some recent BJ threads trying to see what I have missed, and holy cow-ski, that rambling video of McCain… yikes! That explains why people were suddenly speculating about McCain possibly retiring immediately and Cyndi taking his place.
Oh, and Adam, thanks so much for the Dogs in Bags thread. So much fun!
Oh, and germy, loved your Dorothy Parker quote. Had to send it to my niece who just wrote a book.
Ruckus
@Baud:
Answers
1. Nothing.
2. By doing the same thing as #1.
Rinse, repeat.
I’ve wondered for the last few months, the same thing as mems seems to be saying, if you can be invited inside the tent and still throw shit, and be invited back still having ulterior motives, be they outside and/or personal motives, wouldn’t you?
D58826
three addition observations:
1.
When the Nazis Come Marching In
I never feared the First Amendment until white supremacists came to my hometown.
on slate by Dahlia Lithwick
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/06/fear-of-the-first-amendment-in-time-of-violent-protests.html
2. there is a tweet referencing a comment made by Der Fuhrer’s lawyer that Trump firing Mueller is a possibilty
One of President Donald Trump’s attorneys on Sunday wouldn’t rule out the possibility the president would fire the special counsel appointed to look into his campaign’s potential ties to Russia.
Robert Mueller was appointed by the Justice Department last month to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 presidential election. And on Sunday, ABC’s George Stephanopoulos asked Trump attorney Jay Sekulow whether the president would pledge not to interfere or order the attorney general to fire Mueller..
“Look, the president of the United States, as we all know, is a unitary executive,” Sekulow said on ABC’s “This Week.” “But the president is going to seek the advice of his counsel and inside the government as well as outside. And I’m not going to speculate on what he will, or will not, do.”
Sekulow said he “can’t imagine” the issue would arise, but “that, again, is an issue that the president with his advisers would discuss if there was a basis.”
http://www.politico.com/story/…..sel-239396
3. Totally flying under the radar because of Trump/Comey is the ME and the situation involving KSA. Qatar, and the Daesh attack in Tehran. Der Fuhrer keeps defending KSA which is actually the home base of the Wahhabi inspired jihadists and the major funder of terrorism in the world today. Not to mention the home of 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers. But try and find any extended discussion of this. I’m not saying Trump/Comey/Russia isn’t important but so is the ME and we all are suffering from information overload
Brachiator
Yep. Comey did not leave any room for misinterpretation. No fuzz, indeed.
This is not going away, no matter how hard the Republicans try to sweep it under the rug and cover Trump’s ass.
Unfortunately, the public seems bored and confused, and Fox News is amping up their fake news propaganda.
D58826
OK I tried posting this as one comment but it has disappeared into the either so i’ll do them one at a time
When the Nazis Come Marching In
I never feared the First Amendment until white supremacists came to my hometown.
on slate by Dahlia Lithwick
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/06/fear-of-the-first-amendment-in-time-of-violent-protests.html
D58826
2. there is a tweet referencing a comment made by Der Fuhrer’s lawyer that Trump firing Mueller is a possibilty
One of President Donald Trump’s attorneys on Sunday wouldn’t rule out the possibility the president would fire the special counsel appointed to look into his campaign’s potential ties to Russia.
Robert Mueller was appointed by the Justice Department last month to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 presidential election. And on Sunday, ABC’s George Stephanopoulos asked Trump attorney Jay Sekulow whether the president would pledge not to interfere or order the attorney general to fire Mueller..
“Look, the president of the United States, as we all know, is a unitary executive,” Sekulow said on ABC’s “This Week.” “But the president is going to seek the advice of his counsel and inside the government as well as outside. And I’m not going to speculate on what he will, or will not, do.”
Sekulow said he “can’t imagine” the issue would arise, but “that, again, is an issue that the president with his advisers would discuss if there was a basis.”
http://www.politico.com/story/…..sel-239396
Baud
@Ruckus: No argument here. Regardless, our main task is to cobble together a majority (or even a supermajority) and win elections. If the Wilmerites can’t work with us, I’m open to triangulating if there were some group to triangulate with. I don’t know how it will all play out in 2018 and 2020.
D58826
and 3. Totally flying under the radar because of Trump/Comey is the ME and the situation involving KSA. Qatar, and the Daesh attack in Tehran. Der Fuhrer keeps defending KSA which is actually the home base of the Wahhabi inspired jihadists and the major funder of terrorism in the world today. Not to mention the home of 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers. But try and find any extended discussion of this. I’m not saying Trump/Comey/Russia isn’t important but so is the ME and we all are suffering from information
Adam L Silverman
@sphex: You’re quite welcome. Feel free to comment as much as you’re comfortable with. BettyC’s post above is spot on. I’ve been thinking my way through a similar post, which I’ve teased a bit in some comments over the past week, about why it is important to get to the bottom of this, but I’m not done doing the thinking yet.
Adam L Silverman
@D58826: Here you go:
It is unclear who Sekulow is representing here. He actually runs Pat Robertson’s legal shop:
Adam L Silverman
@D58826: No it isn’t.
Iowa Old Lady
@Brachiator: The Russia story has less impact than it should because it’s complicated and many branched, with the administration creating new branches every day. The public needs a clear through line to a story. I hope Mueller is able to lay one out for them eventually. Maybe dealing with the side stories first will help clear the way to see the main one.
NR
@PsiFighter37:
Bernie Sanders yesterday:
Yeah, what an asshole! He should just shut the fuck up and go away!
Ruckus
@schrodingers_cat:
At this point he has been accepted too much to call out. His tone and behavior hasn’t changed at all so how could he be accepted 2 yrs ago and rejected now without a pretty big cost to the party? Yes it was a mistake then but let’s make it better, not worse. OTOH trying to bring him in to placate his fans won’t work because his bullshit has become their bullshit. Letting him fade away seems to me to be making the best of the situation. His fans will diminish over time, especially if he gets little attention. And fading away is probably the best we can expect. The silent treatment works.
Baud
Don’t do it, Mnemosyne.
D58826
@Adam L Silverman: Take your point but the weaknesses of the 9/11 commission would have to be corrected. I’m looking at it as the lesser of two evils. If protecting the electoral system gets lost in the he said – he said back and forth between Trump and Comey it won’t much matter if Trump is deposed under oath.
WarMunchkin
I will burn a goat effigy and lovingly swallow broken glass if it means we stop talking about The Primary
Brachiator
@D58826:
People have mentioned this for years, to imply that Saudi Arabia was behind bin Laden and the attacks.
Got any proof of that?
schrodingers_cat
@Ruckus: I think Democrats need to stand up for their own achievements, not wilt under criticism whether it be from BS or from T.Hey if you won”t stand up for yourself, how do I know that you will stand up for me.
D58826
@Corner Stone: She has chopped up a few GOP talking heads into very very small pieces in the past week or so
rikyrah
The Worst Thing That Happened to Donald Trump this Week
June 9, 2017, 4:33 PM
What’s the worst thing that happened to Donald Trump this week? It was NOT Director Comey’s testimony. Rather, it must be the late Friday news that Robert Mueller has hired Michael Dreeben, on a part-time basis, to help with his investigation.
Dreeben, a deputy in the Office of the Solicitor General, has argued more than 100 cases before the Supreme Court. His specialty has, for the last 20 years, been criminal matters and he has an encyclopedic knowledge of criminal law. I once saw him argue a Supreme Court matter without a single note. In short, he is quite possibly the best criminal appellate lawyer in America (at least on the government’s side). That Mueller has sought his assistance attests both to the seriousness of his effort and the depth of the intellectual bench he is building.
https://lawfareblog.com/worst-thing-happened-donald-trump-week?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=sendto_newslettertest&stream=top-stories
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
A critically important point.
Baud
@rikyrah: Oh wow.
Ruckus
@D58826:
But if dumpf’s team is able to sweep it under the table by controlling the commission, which he could do, as shrub did, then it will matter less. None of this is good, not for anyone, but you have to look for the better, not the best. An electoral system can be rebuilt, quite possibly even far better, but a country with no steerage, no government, no rule of law? Much, much harder to recover from, if it is possible at all.
Jim Bales
@Betty Cracker: Thank you!
sphex
@Adam L Silverman:
Just to clarify: Ive been lurking for over a decade, so I am extraordinarily grateful for *many* of the front pagers here, for different reasons. Betty C’s snarky and spot-on analyses among them (although this particular post was less snarky and more spot-on-y.) :)
Adam L Silverman
@Brachiator: Documented funding streams, exposed during Britain’s prosecution of BAE Systems for issuing bribes around the world in support of their business operations, between a number of Saudi princes and al Qaeda. Including that of Prince Bandar’s wife.
Felonius Monk
In case this hasn’t been mentioned yet:
(Source)
Be sure you checkout the source for amusing pix.
Brachiator
@Iowa Old Lady:
Actually, I think a lot of it is pretty simple. But some people (and not just his base), don’t want to accept a possible Trump connection. And the Republicans have quietly, but definitely decided to put defense of their party and the president over defense of the country. But I agree that the Trump administration is doing everything they can to add to the confusion.
ETA. I see from another post that you saw and enjoyed Wonder Woman. Very cool.
dogwood
@Iowa Old Lady:
I don’t think the general public is necessarily up in arms about the Russian interference yet, but Trump’s 57% disapproval rating and huge majorities who think he fired Comey to impede the investigation, suggest that many are open to becoming up in arms when and if investigators start building a case that can go public. And Americans will stand in supermarket lines this week viewing the screaming cover of Time – LIAR IN CHIEF. The drip, drip , drip of this stuff has an effect. There were Republicans who stuck with Nixon; there were Americans who never paid attention to or gave a damn about Watergate. Those people have always been with us. But we have to remember that the people who didn’t know much or care much about Watergate, also didn’t give a damn that he resigned either.
rikyrah
John HarwoodVerified account @JohnJHarwood
like Comey, Bharara had investigative power over Trump
like Comey, Bharara says Trump tried to cultivate him
like Comey, Bharara was fired
Brachiator
@Felonius Monk: Saw a news story suggesting that Trump wants to delay his UK trip if there are massive protests. Of course, this may be fake news.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: So by mathematical induction, T is going to fire Mueller or at least try to.
D58826
@Ruckus: I don’t disagree with what you and Adam are saying but there seems to be absolutely no interest in the how to prevent the Russians from hacking future elections. I’m not sure that falls into Mueller’s purview. What ever happens it is going to take legislative action, laws, funding at the federal and state levels to build a fire wall around the electoral system.
And what happens if Mueller’s investigation turns up a lot of smoke but no fire. No one is indicted and the report is buried by a GOP controlled Congress/WH.
divF
@schrodingers_cat:
Since John Von Neumann invented the mathematics for both, who knows ?
NR
Oh and by the way, you all who think everything is absolutely fine and dandy with the Democratic party, have a look at this poll. 67% of Americans think the Democratic party is out of touch with their concerns, including:
– 60% of non-white Americans
– 59% of women
– 75% of independents, and
– even 44% of Democrats.
You don’t like Bernie Sanders? Fine. Put him out of your mind and work on fixing the problems with the Democratic party.
Ruckus
@schrodingers_cat:
I agree 100%. Blow your own horn, everyday!
But I was not saying “Don’t blow your own horn!”, I am saying just let the old fart dissipate into the wind. Ignore him. Shut him out. He is going away, sooner than later and giving BS no notice is quite possibly the worst thing you can do to him. Give him no value publicly. We tried bringing him in and that was obviously a failure. He doesn’t want to be brought in, he’s made that abundantly clear. So don’t bring him in, just shut him out.
schrodingers_cat
@divF: But, was he ever a political pundit?
Adam L Silverman
@Felonius Monk: It was reported this morning that the visit has been indefinitely postponed. Apparently the folks in the White House are concerned the trip will not go smoothly now because of snap parliamentary election results. On Friday the Speaker of the House of Commons stated unequivocally that the President would not be allowed to address Parliament.
Betty Cracker
@D58826: Exactly. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but Mueller’s remit is relatively narrow and focused on the Trump campaign. Russian interference is broad — we know it affected House races.
Omnes Omnibus
@D58826:
How do you come to this conclusion? The first step in figuring out how to prevent it in the future is to determine exactly what was done and how.
schrodingers_cat
@Ruckus: I agree, shut him out but when he attacks Dems on ACA or Dodd Frank don’t let those attacks go unanswered. Ignoring a problem does not make it go away.
HRC ignored BS attacks and that didn’t exactly help her.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman: I’m happy for the U.K.
Brachiator
@Adam L Silverman:
Thanks. Stuff like this reinforces a view that the West tolerates Al Qaeda and ISIL and deliberately throws away lives and money to protect a status quo and the interests of the elites.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: So if we plan a protest everyday, will he go away? To Russia may be…
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: It’s tempting.
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: Well the “West” has tolerated the Saudis since the time they rose against Ottomans roughly a 100 years ago.
Cheryl Rofer
@D58826:
It’s been done before, so there’s a precedent.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: Actually Mueller’s remit is quite broad.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/special-prosecutor-mueller-trump/527130/
Corner Stone
@Brachiator:
Are you disagreeing that that is not true?
divF
@schrodingers_cat: No, but he was quite political, as a member of the Atomic Energy Commission, as well on serving on lots of Cold-War MIC panels.
(You undoubtedly know this.)
ETA: Think Edward Teller, but with *much* better scientific credentials. Edward was also Hungarian: as another distinguished scientist put it, “Blood is thicker than heavy water”.
Another Scott
@Betty Cracker: Horse’s mouth:
“Related matters” might be pretty broad.
Click through to the actual PDF for the full legalese.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: @Adam L Silverman: I agree with Adam that Mueller has pretty broad authority – if he chooses to use it.
D58826
@NR: you and Bernie are right.
The D’s and Obama
1. didn’t save the world economy
2. didn’t save the auto industry
3. didn’t preside over 75 months of job growth
4. didn’t provide medical coverage for 20+ million Americans
5. didn’t pass legislation to bring wall street/big banks under control
6. didn’t do anything to protect consumers from financial fraud, like the recent wells Fargo scandal
7. didn’t propose rules to protect people from wage theft
8. didn’t propose rules that would require financial advisers to act in the interest of the client, i.e. fiduciary rules
9. didn’t propose rules to clean up the air and water and
10. did nothing to start moving the economy to a non-carbon based energy supply.
But Obama did wear a tan suit and put mustard on his burger. Sins which I’m sure Bernie will not repeat
Snark aside, yes that study is disturbing that the D’s are not getting the message out about what they accomplished. I doubt that Bernie will be the solution however. Remember for the 8 years that Obama was failing to do all of the above you would probable be hard pressed to find 3 people outside of VT who had ever heard of Bernie Sanders. Who is still NOT a registered democrat and I don’t think has turned his mailing list over to the party that he claims he wants to lead.
Adam L Silverman
@Brachiator: It is not evidence that Saudi’s Foreign Intel shop formally assisted them in any way. Rather there is a lot of documentation, significant amounts that are open source, that the Saudis are talking out of both sides of their mouth on this stuff. Which makes the current games they’re playing with Qatar not just stupid, but also hypocritical. What they’re counting on is that their very well funded PR efforts in the US will continue to pay off, as will those of the UAE. Every GCC country does the same thing, which is also the same thing that Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, and Egypt do. They’re working both sides of the street on violent extremism at all times for their own domestic and foreign interests.
Ruckus
@D58826:
You of course have a valid point but like everything else timing is critical. It won’t matter if we have fair elections if we don’t have a fair government to elect people to because the real winners will never win.
Priorities.
At this point if it weren’t for our military power and it’s quite possible misuse we’d be the laughing stock of the entire world. We may be in spite of that. We elected a moron, to replace possibly one of the top five presidents of all time, for sure top in my lifetime. Doesn’t matter how we did this, it happened. Our part of the world is going critical mass as we write and that is far more important than elections. We’ve proven that we can fuck up an election, let’s not prove we can fuck up the world.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: Based on who he’s been hiring, he’s planning on using it.
sukabi
@Adam L Silverman: interviewed together so Cheney could keep his ventriloquist act going.
Also so W wouldn’t accident say something damming.
Cheryl Rofer
@Iowa Old Lady:
And also a cast of thousands, with each having their own agenda. There are a lot of missing pieces in the publicly available information. It looks like the intelligence agencies have more of the pieces, but I suspect they are missing quite a few. Mueller is hiring experts in fraud, presumably to track down the money trails, which are going to be quite complex, although eventually I think they will boil down to a simple story: Trump’s stupidity and greed entangled him and his family in Russian money laundering and possibly other aspects of Russian organized crime. Then they couldn’t find a way out. Flynn and others fed off that.
NotMax
Profiles in rank idiocy.
Rep. Dana Rohrbacher (R-Braindead) states ISIL attack a good thing and suggests it’s a coordinated part of “Trump strategy.”
(Head/desk; repeat ad infinitum</em.)
HeleninEire
@Corner Stone: Mensch-y needs to be a new word.
Doug R
@Brachiator: Well, there’s this.
smintheus
The 9/11 Commission was independent, and we’d have been better off without it. It had no teeth, no mandate (it said) to hold anybody responsible, and it inevitably ended up as a smokescreen obscuring the failure of the Bush administration to do its duty.
We don’t need an independent commission to investigate the Trumplings. We need an independent prosecutor who can help to imprison them and remove them from power.
hovercraft
@PsiFighter37:
It’s a been a beautiful weekend here in Jersey, so I’ve barely paid attention, but from my brief perusals, there hasn’t been a lot of attention paid to it. In fact your comment is the first I’ve heard about it, so maybe it’s being ignored as it should be. If so I suspect it’s only because of the Twitler, Comey, Sessions circus rather than a trend, but a girl can hope. I have noticed that the media is finally catching on to the fact that BS is just as polarizing as Hitlery, when they talk about him it’s no longer as the one true voice of the base, it’s as the head of a wing of the party.
Anyhoo, fuck BS he refuses to deign to join the party, so why should I care what he has to say?
D58826
@Omnes Omnibus: maybe should have said the GOP. THey seem to be defending Trump and his Russia fake news tweets.@Another Scott: @Omnes Omnibus: I don’t dispute that he has a wide remit but it seems mostly aimed at possible criminal conduct by Americans.@Omnes Omnibus: I agree that you have to find out what happened but you also have to figure out how to prevent it in the future. They are parallel tracks that can happen at the same time. Even if it take Mueller a year to find criminal culpability we should be trying to figure out a way to harden our election systems (and maybe even the internet in general) from hacking. If the Russians can hack the DNC why can’t they hack Duke power and turn off the lights.
dogwood
@Ruckus:
I don’t fault Perez and the Democrats for inviting Bernie in. It was an act of good faith that wasn’t returned in kind. At that stage of the game I’m not sure it did any harm either. Best now to leave him on his own to speak to the lock her uppers who aren’t republicans. It’s increasingly becoming performance art anyway. And I have long maintained that protesting or confronting performance artists like Ann Coulter is counterproductive. If she showed up on some college campus and no one but her ardent fans attended, she would be out of business.
Ruckus
@schrodingers_cat:
Did I miss her kicking his ass in the primary?
Did I miss her winning the popular vote?
Sure it wasn’t enough but how were you going to change that, then?
The problem was bringing in the loser after those contests and allowing him to say shit on our dime. And doing it over and over. I don’t recall that happening before. Losers put on their happy face and back the party. He’s not in our party so he didn’t do that. And we gave him the microphone to do that with. That was the own goal.
sukabi
@D58826: and if he does fire Mueller that’s another instance of obstruction of justice…for them to even float the idea of firing him seems to be bordering on intimidation if not obstruction.
Also makes them seem more guilty not less.
eclare
@rikyrah: Thanks for posting, we all need every little bit of good news we can get these days.
NotMax
@D58826
Because any power company worth its salt recognizes the potential for threat/intrusion and has detection protocols and safeguards (of varying degree, obviously) in place.
Doesn’t mean they’re invulnerable but does make them a tougher nut to crack.
D58826
@Ruckus: May be putting words in somebody’s mouth but I think he was talking about Hillary did not use any of the op research that she had during the primary and that the GOP most certainly would have used in the general. He has said and done things over the years that would take a lot of explaining.t
germy
@hovercraft:
Maybe that means he’s “making nice” with the Democratic party.
I suspect if he drops the attacks, the villagers will have less and less use for him, and he’ll suddenly find himself with no invites to their talk shows.
Yellowdog
@schrodingers_cat: I’d say it’s even money that Trump will do just that before the Fourth of July. Technically, IIRC, he can’t fire Meuller but he can direct Rosenstein to fire him and fire Rosenstein if he refuses. Why is nobody talking about this? I see it as a fairly likely outcome.
D58826
@NotMax: True but Putin has all the time in the world and doesn’t have to worry about a budget. Duke can’t even keep it’s slurry ponds from over flowing so I would not count on their cyber defenses. The medical carer for my employer was hacked not so long ago and that may well have been by a 400 lb kid in the basement. And ask Target about cyber security
schrodingers_cat
@Ruckus: I admire HRC, but attacks by BS largely went unanswered. What she did was enough to win the primary and the popular vote but not the Presidency. Even now we have BS supporters spouting about how no one went to jail of 2008 crash and how we don’t have single payer. While Democrats get zero credit for Dodd-Frank and ACA, and this from what we consider “our side”.
D58826
@Yellowdog: The Nixon protocol
Bex
@Brachiator: If you’re gonna sweep it under the rug and cover Trump’s ass you’re gonna need a bigger rug.
NR
@D58826: I’ve never said Obama didn’t do some good things while in office. In fact, I praised him on this very blog when he did good things, like the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell repeal for example.
But what he and the Democrats did were clearly not enough for many people in America. And you can’t blame racism and sexism (the popular go-to around here) when even large majorities of non-white people and women say that the Democratic party is out of touch. The party needs to figure out how to address the concerns that affect these voters’ lives. Shit like this is a step in the wrong direction.
Immanentize
@Cheryl Rofer:
I dropped this at the end of the last thread, but it’s an important fact in this firing Mueller talk:
It is not at all like firing Bahara, Yates or Comey who were all appointees who serve at the pleasure of the President. But I am certain Trump will never understand this distinction.
dogwood
@germy:
The news of the past few weeks has been about Comey, Russia, and the disastrous foreign trip. No of these things interest Bernie, and they don’t lend themselves to Democratic bashing. Once there is a shift to the Obamacare repeal which looks increasingly like a done deal, then Sanders will be useful to the media again.
NotMax
Sans further comment.
schrodingers_cat
@Yellowdog: Not going to speculate about what T or his minions will do. That is an exercise in futility.
JPL
@Ruckus: omg Tinkle down economics.
Immanentize
@Adam L Silverman: Historically, the Saudis have been geniuses at getting the British and Americans to fight their wars for them. Yemen, now Qatar. Just the latest.
germy
@dogwood:
Good point.
Brachiator
@Adam L Silverman:
Or business as usual, especially if they don’t have a to fear any consequences for their actions.
And I accept that other nations look after their own interests. It’s the stupidity of the West in often believing that we are getting anything out of the deal that rankles.
Ruckus
@dogwood:
I do fault them for bringing him in after the convention. He proved there that he wasn’t playing ball and he has done nothing to change that in what, nearly a year? Maybe they thought it might bring back some people. It may have even worked. But it also seemed to harden a lot of “supporters” who would get far more of what they wanted with Clinton than they ever would have with him.
As a precision machinist I use a term all the time, “Perfect Enough.” No matter how tight you can hold tolerances, no matter how much effort put forth, no matter what amount of luck you have, nothing ends up perfect. The more people you put into the mix the less likely that is to happen. Too many cooks spoil the whatever. Politics is never PERFECT. And perfect enough is doesn’t satisfy a lot of people, but it is all that is available in any human endeavor.
schrodingers_cat
@Ruckus: Democrats need to do a better job of standing up for themselves and take pride in their achievements. The 20th century was the American century because of the ground work laid by FDR. Instead they let everyone from MSM Punditubbies to BS shit on their achievements, on a daily basis.
sukabi
@Omnes Omnibus: I would surmise, based in the heavy hitters he’s bringing on that he’s taking this extremely seriously. He’s got spy hunters, fraud and money laundering experts, and criminal prosecution experts…
Drumpf has his personal lawyer, who is making statements that could qualify as witness intimidation and defamation, and the toadies who tell him what he wants to hear…
J R in WV
@Feebog:
I don’t disagree, except that the member you are speaking of is the ranking member of the Select Committee on Intelligence – Congressman Adam Schiff of California. I don’t know who Adam Schaffer is, or if you did a typo.
schrodingers_cat
@Immanentize: Sweet oil money is sweet, worth a few tommies and GIs won’t you say.
D58826
Full court press to discredit Comey and the Mueller investigation.
Obviously newsmax is a piece of s**** but I have seen Newt say the same thing in other places. Ari Fleischer is singing the same song and Allen Deshowitz is laying the legal ground work that Trump has the constitutional authority to fire Comey and presumably Mueller. And said firing is not obstruction.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/James-Comey-Newt-Gingrich-Robert-Mueller-President-Donald-Trump/2017/06/10/id/795270/?utm_campaign=crowdfire&utm_content=crowdfire&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter#833232879324954624-tw1497144710517
Brachiator
@Bex:
I hear the Republicans have one on order from Amazon.
Ruckus
@D58826:
@schrodingers_cat: is a woman, not a he. Just for the record.
D58826
@J R in WV: Schiff is a smart guy but a democratic house can make recommendation and even pass a bill but it will die in the GOP Senate. On the off chance that the Senate would pass something, Trump would probably veto it. Unfortunately that would be the same fate of an independent commission.
D58826
@Ruckus: oops. that’s why I usually write he/she. Sorry
D58826
and a new country heard from
This is getting ugly fast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cP9C2Hqigo&feature=youtu.be
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
No. The Democrats need to do a better job of telling voters what they will do for them, today and tomorrow, and win elections. Politics is not a history lesson.
NotMax
@D58826
Internal economic priorities in play. Slurry ponds neither generate power nor particularly add much to the bottom line.
(Not offered as any defense of Duke, more an observation regarding motivations.)
D58826
Just to make my position clear – I would pay good money (and I am famous for having moths live in my wallet) for front row seats to see Der Fuhrer, Jared, Ivanka and the rest of them frog marched out of the WH in orange jump suits. But that is only part I. Part II is making sure the Russians are kept out of our elections. And I’m just not sure that anyone is putting the tools in place to accomplish Part II. Now maybe it is to early to talk about setting up Part II but given the GOP/Trumpist reaction to what little has happened so far in Part I I worry that we will never get to Part II.
Ruckus
@schrodingers_cat:
I consider some of what you claim to be sour grapes. (and yes I have them too)
How do you know she didn’t use oppo research?
I heard plenty of positive about the dem accomplishments. That they get drowned out by bullshit like Obamacare will kill you, you need the ACA type stuff. Lots and lots of voters are not just low info, they are no info types. Or bullshit info types. That isn’t the fault of the dems. It’s the fault of the MSM, the Grand Old Poop party, and it looks like the Russians. Yes we have enough own goals to last a lifetime but we shouldn’t blame ourselves for the bullshit of others.
I ask this question. How could Hillary Clinton won the electoral college? Especially given all that we think we currently know. I’m actually amazed that it was as close as it turned out. What, 80,000-100,000 votes in three states, out of 123,000,000 or more? Considering the bullshit thrown her way, I’d say that’s like landing on the moon within a foot of the target, given 1969 technology. Did she have own goals? Of course, we all do, every single one of us. Can we quit blaming her for doing a stellar job, even if it wasn’t finished the way we wanted it? First woman to get out of a primary and run for president and win the popular vote. After 25-30 yrs of bullshit thrown her way. In this country? Damn that’s impressive. If we survive think what we could do next time.
And you all call me negative and bitter. At least I’m only bitter and negative towards those that are trying to kill me and my friends.
NR
@dogwood:
You mean the Obamacare repeal that Bernie Sanders opposes, and has vocally spoken out against time and again, including a quote I provided in this very thread?
NR
@Ruckus:
Well for a start, she could have not wasted time campaigning in Arizona when it was obvious to everyone that the election was going to be decided in the Rust Belt (and that’s where Trump spent most of his time).
Betty Cracker
@Adam L Silverman & @Another Scott & @Omnes Omnibus: Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but it looks like Mueller’s remit is to investigate Russian interference related to Trump’s campaign. That’s broad in the sense that it can lead all sorts of places (I think lines of inquiry related to corruption will be especially fruitful).
But will he investigate Russian interference unrelated to the Trump campaign, like in the House races? Will he be accountable to the public to produce a report on exactly how extensive the interference was at all levels and a plan to thwart future incursions? My understanding is that’s more broad than Mueller’s assignment.
D58826
@NotMax: I understand. But corporate America’s decision making process is driven by the bottom line and the next quarterly report. The feds had to come in and clean up the S/L mess in the late 80’s and the collapse in 2008. We set up the entire super fund structure because corp. America walked away from the mess that they created. Heck even the most recent scandal at wells Fargo. Sure the CEO got canned and had to give back 100 million or so of his 200 million dollar parachute. The current leadership has given up some bonuses but are still racking in millions in other bonus and stock options.
D58826
@Ruckus:
Putting on my tinfoil hat here. If that margin was the result of some kind of hacking then you would not want a huge number of Trump votes in unexpected pl;aces. Might raise red flags. As far as the EC is concerned he could just as easily have one by 1 vote in each state.
Note the TIN FOIL HAT
Brachiator
The Guardian is getting around to covering Sanders’ tired bullshit. Talk about kissing up to him.
.
D58826
@Betty Cracker:
not to beat a dead Trump hairpiece but that is my Part II in all of this
D58826
@NR: Yes she should have skipped Az but given what the polls were saying she was trying to broaden the electoral map. You know the 50 state strategy. And maybe getting a few local D’s elected to Congress. As far as skipping WI, she could have attended all of the GB packers home games and I doubt it would have made a difference. remember Feingold lost and I’m sure he has seasons tickets to the Packers.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: That makes me happy! Off to read the article at the link…
Brachiator
@Ruckus:
Easy. By winning the Electoral College.
This shit does not matter except to provide tactical tips for 2018 and for whoever runs in 2020.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker : The second part of the remit clearly gives him power to look into state and lower level federal election interference should he uncover evidence that warrants it.
J R in WV
@Tenar Arha:
Why do I need or care to “prove there was interference” with anything? Registration databases would be the last place I would hack if I wanted to turn an election, they are too far upstream of the actual counting totals. If you planned to have people voting illegally, in a conspiracy of hundreds of thousands, then you might need to hack registration DBs, but the rest of that conspiracy would be stillborn of idiocy.
But taking control of a few hundred of servers tallying votes – or a few hundred polling places in reliably Democratic locations – either tactic could work to throw a few votes here and there to turn an election from close one way to close the other way.
Does your ETA2 mean you are a Republican?
JMG
According to the NYT, Trump’s personal lawyer, Kaskowitz is telling White House staffers not to worry, they don’t need their own lawyers yet. This is super unethical and very bad advice to boot.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
My point exactly. People are complaining that she didn’t do enough. And this is true. But she could have personally appealed to every voter and I’d bet it wouldn’t have made any difference. Because she wasn’t the problem.
sukabi
@Betty Cracker: but should individual races be separated out from the investigation of Drumpf / Russia? I don’t think they should be…it was more than likely a coordinated effort by the Russians and part of the same plan…interfere where ever and when ever they were able…my 2 cents…
Baud
@Baud: Thanks, Mnemosyne.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: Well, there wasn’t any further information at the link, but that’s still uplifting news!
Mnemosyne
@Baud:
Luckily for all of you, I was at my writer’s group. ? And we’re heading out to a movie in a few minutes, so I don’t have time to scatter any troll snacks.
sukabi
@JMG: well to be fair, drumpfs personal lawyer is looking out for Drumpf interests…it’s nice to have some lowly, unrepresented scapegoats to sacrifice when the time is right.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@N(R): Even if you’re right in this case, I still hate your obnoxious guts. Take your own advice:
Baud
@WaterGirl: No news is good news.
@Mnemosyne: ?
Ruckus
@D58826:
Once again sort of makes my point. It doesn’t take a lot to throw an election in this country, that’s the not so well hidden premise behind the EC in the first place, how to control who wins. She is not the first person to win the popular vote and lose the election, someone posted here the other day it’s happened, I believe 4 other times. And our presidential elections have been rather close in the last few runs, so a few votes one way or another is all it takes. 100k votes out of 123 million is 8 tenths of a percent. Didn’t Al Gore win both the popular and EC tallies and I don’t recall him being sworn in? That was what one county in FL?
You are correct that our system is broken and needs to be updated but nearly half the country wins with this shitty system, they aren’t going down without a fight. Even if it really isn’t the will of the (majority of the) people. Don’t forget it was conservatives that wanted the premise of the EC in the first place.
D58826
@J R in WV: MY conspiracy theory is aimed right at the voter database. There are to many different methods of voting – paper, optical, maybe a few old punch cards still left – to make it feasible. On the other hand, in a tight race in PA, for example, delete a couple of tens of thousands of voters from reliably democratic areas. That will force them to use a provisional ballot in order to vote and then later go down to the board of election to re-register. a lot of folks, esp if they can’t take time off from a job, will not do step 2. Now maybe there will be enough provisional ballots not counted to flip the result and maybe not. Maybe election officials will notice the spike in provisional ballots. The goal is to undercut people’s faith in the system as much as getting a specific candidate elected. Did you come out of Fla. in 2000 with an increased faith in the electoral system? Putin is playing a long game so if it works then fine if not there is always the next election. .
J R in WV
@Adam L Silverman:
Thanks for the correction. I was responding to another comment in Mistermix’s thread and borked the name. My comments remain as valid despite borking up the name. I am solely responsible for the speling (sic) error in my post ;-)
And I’m not referring to a former SC nominee but the Swedish Chef with the verb borked.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
I thought it was only the Clintonistas who were still bringing up their grievances from the primary and all of the Sanders dead-enders were ready to move forward. ?
ETA: Sorry, Baud. I let you down. I’ll go in the box for my two minutes and feel shame.
Betty Cracker
@sukabi: I agree and was under the impression that Mueller’s inquiry won’t necessarily cover other instances of interference unless they stumble upon it while investigating the Trump campaign, which is why I’m in favor of an independent committee to look into the whole shebang. But people with actual legal credentials (Omnes, et al) seem to think otherwise. Hopefully, they are right and Mueller will get to the bottom of it — and clue us all in on what happened.
D58826
@Ruckus: Agreed. I was hoping, naively of course, that the GOP would put country ahead of party in this one instance. After all if Hillary had won we still would have had the problem of Russian hacking. And I suspect that the GOP would be beating down the doors to investigate. I hope the D’s would go along. And who knows in 2020 Putin might put his thumb on the scale for the democrat because of buyers remorse over Der Fuhrer not delivering the goods.
Redshift
@Betty Cracker: Mueller is charged with investigating “‘any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation’ and any other matters that fall under the scope of the Justice Department regulation covering special counsel appointments” per WaPo, so I wouldn’t be too quick to assume anything Russia-related is outside of those bounds.
J R in WV
@Mnemosyne:
I went to Google news to see what’s up with wilmer, and there was nothing. Good!!
So I entered his name and the word rally, and there were some headlines, but small beer in every case. Back pages of WaPo and FTFNYT, sites I never heard of. All better news than I expected. Probably few if any registered Dems present, including non-Dem BS.
D58826
@Betty Cracker: I’m confident that if left alone Mueller has the remit and the skill to drill down to the bottom of the legal case. I just don’t think he is authorized to look into how to fix the problem going forward. He might make some general recommendations but it still is going to take legislation/money at all levels of the government to fix this mess. And that would be true if Hillary had won or Der Fuhrer was as pure as new fallen snow.
Brachiator
@Ruckus:
Actually, I think she could have won, and I think that some of her decisions were part of the problem, along with external factors. But there is no way to test this, so speculation is futile.
eclare
@J R in WV: From what I recall, the Wilmer event had to “approve” your attendance, doubt there were any actual Democrats.
D58826
I had posted this on an earlier thread but will post again for all the techie types
I saw this article on twitter today entitled ‘the president’s secret air force’. All about what it takes to move Potus from point A to point B. AF 1 may not have a ramp for Harrison Ford to kick people off his airplane but it does have a few tricks that the average 747 doesn’t have.
‘he following is expanded and adapted from Raven Rock: The Story of the U.S. Government’s Secret Plan to Save Itself—While the Rest of Us Die (Simon & Schuster, 2017).’
http://www.politico.com/magazi…..rce-215091
Redshift
@Betty Cracker: I want an independent investigation because Mueller is only investigating legal matters, and there’s plenty that we need investigated that’s probably legal. I’m also willing to accept we aren’t getting one yet, but once Mueller starts putting Republicans under oath, more of them might start to see the value of separating themselves from the Trump debacle.
D58826
and just sent in my contribution for GA-06/Ossoff
NR
@Mnemosyne:
The poll I referenced had nothing to do with the primary.
Kay
@D58826:
This is bad politically for conservatives, though, I don’t care how much of a lock they have on Congress, they seem terrified to have Russian interference investigated.
Voters have a personal interest in this. It’s bigger than Donald Trump and the Republican Party. Something happened here and no one has told voters what that was. Why are conservatives so determined to keep them from finding out?
At some point someone will have to tell the public what happened. Donald Trump tried to say it was fake news. Then all of political media said it was Hillary Clinton’s sour grapes and nothing really happened.
But something did happen, and Senators describe it as profound and huge. So what was it? The Trump Administration have the facts. They were all briefed. Just tell us. If it’s not a big deal then no one will care and they can all go back to lying about building The Wall. Trump holds the keys to this prison he says he’s in in his own hands. Release the information and let the public decide.
Betty Cracker
@J R in WV: I see on the Twitters that Fox News is covering it. It’s helpful for their “Dems in Disarray” narrative, so unsurprising.
Meanwhile, in my local Dem organization, people who voted for Sanders and folks who voted for Clinton in the primary are working together to resist Trumpism and elect more Democrats in 2018. It’s happening all over the country. That’s the real story, IMO.
sdhays
@NotMax:
Neither does cyber security.
Kay
One of two things are true; this is a nothingburger and the Trump Administration are right and all of the intelligence agencies and most of Congress are wrong- not just “wrong” -actively and deliberately lying to the public, or … the people in the Trump Administration are lying.
I don’t know- which of those would you put money on? I think Donald Trump lied 4 times yesterday.
This seems like an easy call. We don’t know what it was but we know it happened and was big. At some point someone will have to tell us and then people can decide if Donald Trump, who was briefed on this and is aware of it, was lying to them about this too. They’ll find out. It’s just a matter of time.
Redshift
@Brachiator: Sure, she could have won, because it was so close that doing slightly better in any number of areas could have changed the outcome. But that’s basically a hindsight argument, and doesn’t prove there was any way for them to know what they should have done differently at the time.
It’s kind of like the Naderites who still insist Bush wasn’t their fault because Gore should have run s better campaign. It’s not entirely false, but it’s still wrong, like saying don’t blame me for handing you a ten pound weight, you would have won the race if you’d been a better runner.
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: I disagree, voters need to be reminded what made America the envy of other nations. Pointless swagger exhibited by recent R presidents was not it.
D58826
Newflash 1 – the sun will come up in the west tomorrow
twitter flash 1 – American leadership was better under Obama per John McCain. (they have a photo so it is the real John Mccain
newsflash 3 – Mccain will continue to vote the party line
newflash 4 – larry is staying on as the official 10 downing street cat
schrodingers_cat
@Ruckus: I am not blaming the Dems at all. I just want them to be more proud of their achievements and toot their horn more, because God know the R party propaganda arm that our prestige media (NPR, PBS, Vichy Times, Atlantic, etc) has become, certainly won’t.
Kay
I love how there’s a whole genre of articles now about how Donald Trump doesn’t “understand DC” so can’t function there.
He couldn’t function anywhere. There is no management job where cutting people off at the knees, accusing them of crimes, and just generally treating them like garbage “works”. This is a myth, that assholes make good managers. If you treat people like shit they do bad work and the leak and gossip and conspire and betray you. There weren’t as many leaks out of the Obama White House because they were an actual, functioning work team.
Obama was a better manager. It has nothing whatever to do with mysterious folkways of Washington DC. It has to do the fact that Trump sucks at this- he doesn’t inspire loyalty and team work because he’s an asshole and a lousy manager. It’s no more complicated than that.
Redshift
@Betty Cracker: In Virginia, we have the misfortune to have gubernatorial elections the year after the presidential election, and one of the candidates was endorsed by Wilmer, which has made it hard to get away from it completely. I’ll be very interested to see what happens after Tuesday’s primary. If Periello wins, I’m confident that everyone on Northam’s side will get on board. I’m still a little nervous about the reverse case, but hopefully other than a few dead enders, it will be fine. I was heartened by the fact that there was no endorsement from MoveOn, because the vote was only 60-40. Definitely closer than expected. I hope that’s because people have recognized there really isn’t a clear progressive-centrist divide between the two candidates’ positions and histories, despite Periello’s attempt to claim the True Progressive mantle.
sdhays
@Redshift: Who do you support? Last year, I just assumed that Northam would be the candidate; he’s been running for it since McAuliffe was elected (as well he should since we have the stupid single-term rule). But since Periello was endorsed by John Podesta, that became less than certain.
The governorship has to remain in the Democrats’ hands; that’s priority number one. I don’t have a feel for which one of these guys would be better at winning.
D58826
@Kay: What I found so frustrating about Comey’s testimony was ‘ i can’t discuss in open setting’. The session would have been half as long w/o all of the I can’t…..
At one level I understand there is a need for secrecy and a need not to destroy an innocent person’s reputation by disclosing an investigation prematurely (oh wait that doesn’t apply if your name is Clinton). But so much could not be discussed it is not totally unreasonable to say ‘where’s the beef’.
None of that stopped Comey from taking a dig at Loretta Lynch over the term ‘matter’ vs ‘ investigation’. I have no idea if that is some kind of legal distinction. He was concenred that the fix was in but never explained what resources were denied him during thee-mail investigation or whither he was told not to look at certain things. In the end he came to the conclusion that there was no crime. Yet he went on national TV and then before congress and laid out what sounded like a prima fasica case for an indictment. Both last July and last week he made accusations that Hillary/Lynch were not in a position to refute.
Brachiator
@Redshift:
At this point, all commentary about the election is a hindsight argument. I can’t magically get the Clinton campaign to ignore some of the polls that had her in the lead. However, this may help a future candidate, which is the only value in any of this stuff.
My reply to the Naderites or the Jill Stein Squad is that they should always support the Democrats in the general election and otherwise STFU. Their explanations and rationalizations are irrelevant. Of course, they will never change.
D58826
From a Nicole Wallace tweet. Betty think you can help her out:-):-)
Redshift
@sdhays: I’m voting for Northam, but I honestly won’t be unhappy either way. I might well have supported Periello if he hadn’t started out with the Wilmer endorsement and made statements that his winning the primary would be “a victory for the Resistance.” Either will be good, and they both have problematic things in their past that they’ve repudiated.
My general feeling has been that Northam would be a better governor, but Periello may be a better candidate. (He’s certainly run a better primary campaign.) My biggest concern with Northam was that he’s boring in person, but ironically in this year’s atmosphere I’m less concerned about needing a candidate who’s personally inspiring, rather than just good at the job.
NR
@Brachiator:
Maybe, and bear with me here because I know this might sound crazy, but just maybe “shut the fuck up and vote for our candidates” isn’t a very persuasive message.
Adam L Silverman
@Immanentize: Most likely he’s been hired as a Highly Qualified Executive under Title IV of the Federal code. This is an Intergovernmental Political Appointment at the SES level. If this is the case he can be terminated with 30 days notice.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@NR: Maybe “shut the fuck up and vote for our candidates or else the authoritarian party is going to rig elections forever and transform our country into a police state” is more persuasive. Fuckhead.
J R in WV
@Betty Cracker:
‘….a boring, stale, pointless [STINKY] fart at that.”
FTFY !! ;-)
J R in WV
@NR:
OH NO, He’s Back!!!
Go Away, Go Away!!!!!
sukabi
@D58826: wow, the villagers really need to bone up on the basics, don’t they?
Bill Arnold
@schrodingers_cat:
If you go to his web site shop you can find Quantum Mechanics too. Quantum Bankruptcy: How Europe Bails Out Its Failures
Reserving judgment though until I read a few days of tweets. Prolific, that one is.
Bill Arnold
@Adam L Silverman:
J R in WV
@D58826:
“in 2020 Putin might put his thumb on the scale for the democrat… ”
But which Democratic politician is in debt to Russian mobsters to the tune of both balls and his first born daughter? None, right? Thot so.
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: Okay, so mix in some scare tactics with the condescending attitude. I’m sure that’s the winning combination. Can’t possibly fail.
zhena gogolia
@J R in WV:
Oh, right, Putin’s going to support the Democrat. Dream on.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@NR: Its not scare tactics if it’s true asshole. Look around. It’s happening as we speak. The GOP is moving to put themselves in perpetual power. But don’t worry I’m sure you’ll be domestic libtard terrorist #33509 to be thrown from a helicopter instead of #33508 if you do an ostrich impression. Winning!
schrodingers_cat
@Bill Arnold: I am not paying $20 bucks for that rubbish. Catabolic Detroit? WTF is that? I would like to give him a quiz about the scientific jargon he throws around. Naseem Taleb is another one, his favorite is renormalization group theory.
Brachiator
@NR: Maybe, and bear with me here because I know this might sound crazy, but just maybe voting for Nader or Stein in the general election when they cannot win makes no fucking sense.
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: “The Republicans are fascists who are going to turn the country into a dictatorship! We have to do anything to stop them!”
“Okay, let’s move to the left on economic issues to bring in more voters.”
“Anything but that!”
Uncle Cosmo
@divF: There were a number of wickedsmaht Hungarians in the Manhattan Project (Eugen Wigner was another who comes to mind), who would often converse with one another in their native tongue. Their sheer brilliance & the utter alienness of Hungarian gave rise to the rumor (recounted in Richard Rhodes’ The Making of the Atomic Bomb) that they were actually Martians who’d come to Earth perfectly disguised as humans, who (whenever anyone wondered what language they were speaking) would say Hungarian, since no one who didn’t already know Hungarian would know the difference. (I myself have had a bit of tutoring in magyarul & frankly I wouldn’t recognize it if you crept up behind me & whacked me with a viszontlatatsra…)
NR
@Brachiator: I’m sure that most of the people who voted for Nader and/or Stein understood what their chances of winning were.
Regardless of that, telling people to shut the fuck up and fall in line isn’t going to win you much support. Just FYI.
J R in WV
@zhena gogolia:
Did you read my comment?
My whole point is that there are no Democratic politicians in dept to Russian mobsters, and therefore NO Democratic politician can be manipulated like Trump is owned by the Russians.
Do you know how to interpret what you read? Doesn’t look like it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Hurrah! his legacy is secure! we were all waiting for you to weigh in.
patrick II
@Adam L Silverman:
I have been wondering who would hold Donald’s hand if he testified before congress. I can’t believe they would let him up there alone.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@N(R): It seems to work well for the Grand Oligarchy Party.
Look my point is, those voters who refuse to vote for the Democratic candidate out of some form of purity are just as responsible for the innocents who are hurt or killed as those that vote for the GOP.
In a democratic society we are all ultimately responsible for the country we live in. Refusing to vote for the Democrats, the last hope for American democracy is, selfish and self-defeating.
If you want to change the party, get involved and run your own candidates. Put up or shut up
Tenar Arha
@J R in WV: Nope, nope, nope. I was apparently very very unclear. Sorry.
I was using the non-specific general “prove” I certainly did not mean “you prove.” My ETA2 “we were hacked too” I basically meant our society’s racism and sexism was used against us.
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:
The Democratic party is not entitled to anyone’s vote. If the party failed to run candidates who enough people wanted to vote for, the failure is the party’s, not the voters’.
“The customer is always wrong” is a sure recipe for failure in politics, just as it is in business.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@NR:
It is the voters’ faults, because they allowed evil to occur by effectively doing nothing. That is selfish and stupid. They’ll have to live with that for the rest of their lives. They’re just as responsible for the lives that will be destroyed and ended because of it. They deserve to die for it.
Also, I said to get involved in the party and run candidates you like. If they win, then you proved your strat/ideology is electable
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:
Again: the Democratic party is not entitled to anyone’s vote.
If you want people to vote for you, run candidates they want to vote for.
Running candidates they don’t want to vote for, and then berating people for not voting for those candidates, is not a path to winning elections.
People who don’t vote Democratic deserve to die? I strongly urge you to read what you just wrote again, and try to find some sense of perspective, because you’re sorely lacking it right now.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@NR:
Amir Khalid
@NR:
Enough already with the argument that Hillary was the wrong candidate. I know it’s a waste of time to point this out to you, but she did win a majority of votes. She lost to Trump in too many Republican stronghold states with a largely/mostly rural white nominally Christian population. Would Bernie, who lost to her in the primaries, have done better, whether in the election or (more importantly) in the Oval Office? I think not. Trump would have steamrolled him with petty personal insults in the campaign, and for all his pretty rhetoric Bernie showed himself to be politically naive and quite unprepared for the executive job of the Presidency.
KS in MA
@PsiFighter37: Too right.