Trump is supposed to make a statement about the Alexandria shooting shortly. I won’t be watching, but I’ll update this space with a transcript as soon as possible.
As far as national crises go, this would appear to be a minor one. No died in this incident,* thank FSM. But a political shooting is always traumatic, and now there’s some evidence emerging that the alleged shooter was an alt-left nutbar.
So, knowing what we know about Trump, what are the chances he handles this situation with the grace and humility befitting the office? Just about zero, I’d say. We’ll see.
*Update: the shooter has died.
ETA: Okay, I ended up watching it after all and was pleasantly surprised. It wasn’t a well-written or expertly delivered statement by any means, and it’s an embarrassment, as always, to see that clown looming over the presidential seal.
But it was a pretty innocuous statement — thoughts and prayers, yada yada. If Trump is going to use the incident as a political cudgel, he’ll do it on Twitter later. Will post transcript when available.
Tom
Try less than zero.
Tom
And by the way, did Scalise vote for the Republican bill to let the mentally ill have guns?
Iowa Old Lady
I’ll be shocked if Trump doesn’t say this proves we need a travel ban.
mai naem mobile
Did I ever tell you God don’t like ugly?
Thoroughly Pizzled
Speaking as a man, I condemn the shooter and all forms of male violence.
Boatboy_srq
@Iowa Old Lady: An INTERSTATE travel ban, at that.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
sherparick
The Telegraph is reporting that he is a “Bernie Bro” from southern Illinois. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/14/baseball-shooting-james-t-hodgkinson-gunman-opened-fire-congressional/
Somehow by the end of the day I expect that Fox News and the Republican cavalcade will be demanding indictments of Senator Harris, Nancy Pelosi, and Hillary Clinton for inspiring this nut job to do something both evil and stupid.
Ian G.
Yeah, this Berniebro has the potential to be the next Herschel Grynszpan, depending on how Shitgibbon handles this.
JPL
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Wow!
The gunman died..
germy
So an armed wilmerite.
I thought they only sprayed bullshit, not bullets.
Patricia Kayden
@Iowa Old Lady: Now you have me snorting. Who knows what he’ll do? We don’t know him like that.
Thank goodness no one was killed. I read on CNN that over 50 shots were fired. What a way to start Hump Day.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Jane2
Another day, another shooting in America. Trump could use a macro…”Shocked and appalled”….”thoughts and prayers”….”victims family”, etc.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Gravenstone
Already seeing the calls about “Leftist violence”. Starting the pushback by raising the reality of eliminationist rhetoric from the right over the last few decades. Expect this is going to get really ugly, really fast.
hovercraft
@Boatboy_srq:
Well we all know that Chicago is in Illinois, so he could use that as his excuse. There are too many violent extremists in Chicago and we need to keep them out of the rest of the nation until we have extreme vetting in place, right?
schrodingers_cat
The probability =1 that T uses this to discredit the Democrats.
OGliberal
Fucking Bernie bro. This will get pinned on anybody to the left of Mitt Romney. Doesn’t matter that this asshole hated Clinton and is a self proclaimed Democratic Socialist. I worry what Trump will use this for.
Expect the disaster of a healthcare bill to sail through in the wake of this…McConnell will not let this opportunity pass. He was probably going to do it anyway but this helps him even more.
Idiot independents/undecideds will swing right because of this because they’re idiots.
Fuckity fuck…at least nobody died.
trollhattan
@Jane2:
Yeah, a day ending in “y”
amk
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: rethugs hoisted on their own petards. I have zero sympathy.
AliceBlue
I suspect a Karen Handel ad blaming this on Jon Ossoff and Nancy Pelosi is already in the works.
mouse tolliver
He stuck to the script. Eyes glued to the teleprompter. You could tell he was reading. We have a president who can’t speak thoughtfully off the cuff. Sad.
Bruuuuce
@sherparick: And Obama. It’s always all his fault, don’t’cha know :-(
trollhattan
My takeaway: Trump has commanded the entire world to pray for Scalise.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@OGliberal: It’s gonna pass anyway.
trollhattan
@AliceBlue:
Add Planned Parenthood for the trifecta.
schrodingers_cat
@OGliberal: Get a hold of yourself. Panic achieves nothing.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@trollhattan: Lots of Twitter traffic blaming this on the recent Julius Caesar kerfuffle.
Major Major Major Major
@Tom: that was actually not an objectively bad bill, for example the ACLU supported it. ETA: and the particular way that disability was determined prior to that bill included needing somebody else’s help with your paperwork, which was dumb.
scav
Wouldn’t at least a day or so of cops stopping and frisking all chubby white men potentially from the Middle West be indicated as a common sense assertation of basic rights being returned, etc?
Bruce K
Do we have confirmation that the shooter died? Because honestly, the cheeto could assert that water was wet and I wouldn’t trust that without independent verification.
Sab
@mai naem mobile: What does God have to do with this? Nuts people.
Thoroughly Pizzled
Sadly, I am not surprised that when violence came from a man on the left, it was from a Bernie supporter.
Mnemosyne
@sherparick:
As someone who was born and bred in Illinois, I think the odds that a 66-year-old downstater was a flaming liberal are … very low.
The Republicans have been undergoing a series of internal civil wars between the Teabaggers and the Paulites. I suspect this guy started off as a Paulite before he latched onto Bernie.
trollhattan
@scav:
Only after airline pilots report taking fire from flyover country. That’s the real ‘murica donchano? Huckabee told me.
cain
Goddam shooter, he’s killing it for the rest of us. :(
trollhattan
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
If the shooter’s nickname is Brutus then they’re on to something!
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@hovercraft: I suspect you’re joking, but I’ll take a moment to take it seriously.
He can’t do that. The people in Chicago have rights guaranteed under the Constitution. If he were to do that, there would be a rebellion
sherparick
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Apparently Mr. Hodgkinson took Senator Paul and President Trump to heart.
Mnemosyne
Also, I’ll start taking bets now: how long before our resident Bernie trolls blame this on Hillary? An hour? Three hours? Step up and place your bets now!
EBT
If you vote to take away people’s healthcare, don’t be surprised when they try to take away your life.
Emma
Can we stop with the doomsday scenarios, please? Arseholes are going to be arseholes. We don’t need to take them as harbingers of existential terror and dissolution.
Cheryl Rofer
Here’s the video.
mouse tolliver
Worth noting Virginia Democrats just nominated a candidate who explicitly ran as a gun control advocate.
Served
@Mnemosyne: Bellevile could have some of the crunchy granola Greens of Carbondale in it, so it wouldn’t be completely impossible.
The Moar You Know
The fucking wingers in my office are so happy right now. Besides themselves with joy. They got their goddamn Reichstag fire and they know it. Complete with a Marinus van der Lubbe. And it’s already cemented as a “Democrat shooter”.
“He’s a Bernie supporter”
“Well, Bernie was a Democrat, right? That’s what he ran on, right?”
Got no answer to that one! Perhaps someone from the goddamn idiot’s brigade who greenlighted Bernie running as a Dem would like to come down here and help me out?
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@sherparick: For 8 fucking years the Republicans told everyone to water the tree of Liberty with the blood of tyrants. Now they don’t like it when apparently someone took that advice to heart. Trump actually said during the campaign that maybe there was a way for 2nd Amendment people to deal with Hillary. He also said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave. and no one would bat an eye. Now the right is very concerned about political rhetoric and violence. They’ll get away with this schtick like they always do.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: some of the people in this thread are blaming it on BernieBro-dom already, which seems… unfair.
Barbara
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: When I read these statements — and there are lots and lots of them — I have the sense that the assumption underlying the triumphal embrace of “anti-government” violence is that such violence will always come from the right, and that it will always target people like Gabby Giffords, that it will never be taken up from the left side of the political spectrum. No one wants to live in fear of political violence but one side assumes that it will never have to pay the price for enabling such violence by making powerful weaponry freely available to every paranoid and marginally functional adult. Which is not trying to find a silver lining to what happened. It makes my stomach churn anytime I learn of this kind of random violence directed at innocent people, but especially to make some kind of statement, any kind of statement. I hate all of it.
different-church-lady
More dumbshit angles than a billiards table on this one. How will idiots* sort out where to aim their hot takes?
Oh, wait… they’ll just go back to clubbing whomever they were already clubbing…
(*Update in light of #48: even the non-idiots will partake…)
sharl
Sweet Jeebus I HATE this reflexive connecting of everything to someone’s politics – at least what they self-declare as their politics – before facts are in. I didn’t like it when applied to the white nationalist Portland OR knife-wielding murderer (“Berniebro”), I didn’t like it when applied to the nut job from Baltimore went up to NYC and murdered a couple of cops (“Black Lives Matter supporter”), I didn’t like it when applied to the guy who mass-murdered a bunch of people at the Orlando gay nightclub (“Hillary supporter”), etc., etc.
Please, please, please, I know how hard it is to avoid the temptation – I feel its pull as well – but try to avoid the seductive call of confirmation bias. Passion has been a hallmark of a number of movements, political and otherwise, and – bearing in mind that I’m not a behavioral or mental health specialist (nor expert of any kind in that area for that matter) – AFAICT passion-fueled movements seem to attract troubled people like moths to a light in the darkness.
Also – bearing in mind the precaution from the On The Media folks about early reports – this dude may have had other issues that had a bearing on his decision-making:
ETA: maybe this guy decided to take Rand Paul’s June 2016 tweet as an action item:.@Judgenap: Why do we have a Second Amendment? It’s not to shoot deer. It’s to shoot at the government when it becomes tyrannical!
scav
@trollhattan: Well, after closing down all the rural Middle American airports, what’s an economically anxious chubby white guy to do to flag down a passing United flight? Pursed-lip whistles don’t carry that high, so 2nd amendment whiskles zipping by might catch their attention. The guy needs his business-class birthright!
Emma
@The Moar You Know: Read them a list of the right wing shooters. “I’ll apologize for him when you apologize for…..” Yes, it won’t matter to them, except the embarrassment, but it is worth it.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@sharl: He’s got an assault charge from 2006 as well.
rikyrah
@Mnemosyne:
THIS…
sherparick
@Bruuuuce: yea, you’re right. how could I forgotten – https://giphy.com/gifs/slap-slapping-s5zXKfeXaa6ZO
hitchhiker
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
Guessing that Rand doesn’t favor individual interpretation of what it looks like for a government to “become tyrannical.” That’s not for lowly citizens … but the guns are.
This bullshit is why we can never have nice things. This bullshit should have collapsed of its own internal contradictions a long time ago.
scav
This is white-on-white, male-on-male violence and when are we going to see them doing anything about it?
rikyrah
@sharl:
Because White men are ALWAYS allowed CONTEXT for WHY THEY SHOOT/KILL.
Barbara
@Emma: Jared Loughner. Dylann Roof. Timothy McVeigh. Put a name on it.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: I thought that was odd too, particularly since he was a small business owner, which is usually another reliable conservative marker. On the other hand, I run my own business in a deep red area and am of the hue and age that would make folks assume I’m a GOPer, and I’m not. You never know.
PS — not aimed at you, Mnem, just a general comment: It’s wrongheaded to lay this at Bernie’s feet. I hate his trolls as much as the next target of their constant whining and vitriol, but the shooter was a fucking whack-job. The Republicans will be smearing everyone to the left of Sarah Palin because of this shooting. It won’t be fair. Neither will blaming Sanders or even his most obnoxious online champions, IMO.
? Martin
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Actually, it’s to shoot slaves when they rebel because the army could only respond in the case of an invasion, not an armed rebellion from within.
On that point, the Southern Baptists spent most of yesterday standing on their own dick.
I’m not feeling sufficiently charitable today to say something polite.
aimai
@Mnemosyne: This is my suspicion as well. There’s a lot of shifting back and forth between new saviors of that kind: Ron Paul, Larouche, now sanders, and and back again.
Jeffro
@rikyrah: You’re sure not kidding. My mom’s side of the family is from around Harrisburg, and I haven’t heard anything further ‘left’ than “compassionate conservatism” from them, ever.
Southern Illinois is pretty much the far western edge of Appalachia in my experience, with all that entails. Pretty area though.
Patricia Kayden
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: What Julius Caesar kerfuffle? When the exact same play was done with President Obama as Caesar, Conservatives were fine with that. Hope our side isn’t playing along with this silly game.
The Moar You Know
@Emma: There is no embarrassment. One of them claims all those were Democrats too. And since all blacks are Democrats as well, when are Dems going to start taking anti-white racism seriously? People are dying every day!
I have lived in fear of something like this happening for years, but was pretty confident that it wouldn’t happen because libs are generally not shooters. But all it takes is one guy, and in a nation of three hundred million people, I guess it was pretty stupid of me to assume this wouldn’t happen.
Patricia Kayden
@cain: Why? Rightwing shooters have popped up from time to time and don’t appear to have killed it for Republicans who now completely control Congress.
sharl
@rikyrah: Yep, that’s a given, and likely something his lawyer will use in jury selection, assuming they don’t immediately go with the “not-guilty-by-reason-of-diminished-mental-capacity” or whatever.
Betty Cracker
@Patricia Kayden: Uday or Qusay (can’t keep them straight) have been shrieking like a scalded weasel about it.
scav
@Betty Cracker: Based on my Reverand Aunt, who managed a Bernie-Trump-Bernie-Trump conversion in Iowa over the course of the primaries+election, the exact flavor of I hate the establishment tantrum was remarkably flexible.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Raw Story has a punch of this guy’s alleged social media posts.
sherparick
I do want to say something that the two capital police, apparently one an African American and another a woman, who both immediately took on the shooter and despite both being shot apparently took him down. They prevented a more serious incident and deadly incident are true heroes and deserve our praise and gratitude and hopes for a speedy recovery.
Major Major Major Major
@different-church-lady: err, did I say something wrong?
dogwood
@Mnemosyne:
As someone who actually lives in a very red state, there are flaming liberals among us. Republicans don’t get 100% of the vote in the reddest states or reddest counties in America.
hitchhiker
@The Moar You Know:
Make a video of the joyful celebration. Important to document this stuff, and you never know when it might come in handy.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major: I agree and I’m certainly no fan of Wilmer or his acolytes.
It’s a just really a bad look for us because of the actions of this one asshole.
I think it’s important for both Sanders and the Democratic Party to get ahead of this mess and state in no uncertain terms that they do not condone what the gunman did.
Also too, throw the right’s rhetoric about guns right back in their faces to highlight their hypocrisy at every opportunity it comes up. As I think Mnem mentioned, the rightwing has a much more prolific history of violence than the left does in this country. It’s been a slowly growing fire for decades and is now turning into full blown forest fire
TomatoQueen
As of time of posting, only Yamboy has claimed the shooter has died. Has anyone seen any other source for this claim?
clay
@sharl: So he was economically insecure, for real?
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
As I’ve said many times before, I’ve suspected for a long time that the most virulent dead-ender Berniebros are actually former Paulistas who switched teams when they saw Bernie as their new Great White Hope.
This attack is only cementing that notion in my mind.
ETA: Though I should probably admit I was 100 percent wrong about the motives of the Tsarnaevs, so I could well be wrong here and this guy could be a crunchy-granola lifelong hippie.
Sab
Having lived through the 1960s once, I would be very happy not to experience the riots and assasinations again. But that’s just me.
Patricia Kayden
@Betty Cracker: And Ivanka has been whining about how mean D.C. is. Someone needs to get them some pearls and fainting couches tout de suite.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: it’s certainly no secret that some hardcore Bernie supporters were Paultards, as has been noted here by others.
different-church-lady
@Major Major Major Major: I was agreeing with your view, but it appears I did it badly.
Karen
@schrodingers_cat: https://theintellectualist.co/republican-lawmaker-links-outrageous-rhetoric-by-democrats-to-todays-shooting/
Bruuuuce
@Patricia Kayden: IOKIYAR. Say it three times and click your heels together…
Jeffro
Wilmer just posted a statement condemning the shooter and violence. Good and appropriate. No need for Dems to rush out, apologize, or take any heat on this.
Also, Trumpov’s clearly going to step on his own wang in about 10 more minutes…probably tweet something stupid like “If I weren’t tied down with Russia collusion #fakenews, I could have been working to prevent tragedies like this”
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
To be clear, I’m not saying “This is Bernie’s fault!” or anything close to it.
But, given his age and where he lives, he’s more likely to be a Paulista-turned-Berniebro than a lifelong Democrat.
schrodingers_cat
@Jeffro:That’s good.
Jeffro
@Karen: I’ll tone it down just as soon as Rep Collins can show us one instance of an elected Dem calling for violence of any kind.
The first example of a politician calling for a “second amendment solution” that comes to MY mind is of course our current president*
D58826
even a stopped clock get’s it right every so often
Timurid
Watching anti-Trump conservatives on Twitter today is scary. Pretty clear it wouldn’t take much more of this to make them run home to Daddy…
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@Karen: What about all that talk about 2nd amendment solutions? Oh wait, that only applies to their enemies. Nevermind.
Corner Stone
@Timurid: Who?
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@Jeffro: Good on him. Credit where credit is due
Corner Stone
This was the moment Speaker Ryan became President.
raven
@Major Major Major Major: Really? Should I post the screen grabs from his Facebook?
Major Major Major Major
@raven: In order to demonstrate what, exactly?
Timurid
…aaaaaand now there’s an active shooter in San Francisco.
Timurid
@Corner Stone: Pretty much every one of them in my feed.
raven
@Major Major Major Major: Well what did your post say?
Chris
@? Martin:
I love the fact that it’s completely fair to blame Democrats as a party for slavery, but the same principle doesn’t apply to Southern Baptists as a church.
Major Major Major Major
@raven: That some folks are saying these actions were the result of or otherwise directly linked to being a Bernie fan. (edited)
Patricia Kayden
@The Moar You Know: Why does our side have to justify/explain a Bernie Bro (or even Secretary Clinton) supporter who has engaged in a crime? We’re not responsible for what everyone who is progressive/liberal does or doesn’t do.
How many Rightwingers have engaged in violent shootings? They certainly don’t take any responsibility when Rightwingers engage in horrid misconduct, including assaulting members of the press.
raven
@Major Major Major Major: Well if it quacks. . .
Emma
@The Moar You Know: Yes, but… you need to push back on accepting guilt. If someone says “all those people were Democrats” just laugh. Don’t say anything. Just laugh. And walk away. Don’t give them the time or the brain space.
It’s one of the things that makes me nuts about some commenters. Their immediate reaction is to say “you know what the right wingers will say?” We do know. WE SHOULDN’T CARE. We have biggest fish to fry.
Citizen Alan
On a purely personal note, I have to say that I am disturbed and a little bit frightened by how little I actually care about someone like Steve Scalise getting shot.
Tazj
I’ve seen this reaction (blaming Liberals) in the comment sections and on Twitter from people who are Republicans or conservatives. This is the first time I’ve heard it from a Republican member of our government(only a matter of time sadly) and of course it had to be my Congressman and Trump defender, Collins. Their opinion is the Democrats have gotten “hysterical” over the healthcare bill and Russia and this was the result. I guess they think this horrible event will make us all sit down and shut up.
I’ve read that this man worked for Bernie’s campaign for a time. I certainly don’t blame Bernie or his supporters. This person probably had many problems that will come to light in the future.
I’m glad everyone who was injured in the shooting will recover. I only wish that the Republican response would include efforts to increase gun control and greater access and money for mental healthcare instead of just demonizing Democrats. I’m dreaming, I know.
Patricia Kayden
@Timurid: How anyone with a brain could go from not supporting Trump to supporting him because of today’s shooting is beyond my comprehension level. Shootings like these should be used to demand sensible gun control legislation. Virginia is an open carry, lax gun control state.
LurkerNoLonger
@Jeffro: As you know, it’s always projection with these fucks.
D58826
@Karen: Ah seems to me that that kind of statement just adds to the polarization. It was a Gooper who gave us the phrase ‘2nd amendment solutions’ . And it has been the GOOPERS who have been quoting Jefferson on the watering the tree of liberty with blood. And last week it was a GOOPER pol in Ga who hired a bike gang for security. And it was any number of Trump rallies where the chant alternated between lock her up and hang her. Not sure if the T-shirt was sold at the rally but have seen a Trumper with a t-shirt saying ‘rope, tree, good start’ or words to that effect. But IOKIYAR
Chris
@Timurid:
What, they haven’t done it yet? Most of the #NeverTrump types I know rallied to him the very morning after he won the election and they no longer had to worry about loser-stink being all over them.
StringOnAStick
In just tried yet again to get through to Senator Gardner’s office, and as usual it goes to voicemail, after which I always go write an email to him through his website. Gardner knows his act is quite unpopular in the Denver area, which is why he has held no town halls here other than last minute, special invitation ones to supporters.
I called our Democratic Senator (Bennet) and our Democratic House member (Perlmutter) to thank the former for standing up for the first amendment over that attempt to ban reporters from the Senate halls and for pledging obstruction to all Senate actions in order to force the AHCA contents into the public view. I called the latter to thank him for his consistently positive actions, and to give the staffers an “attaboy”, which both offices deeply appreciated. Keep calling, don’t let this shooting provide the attention diversion they need to pass the crap that is the AHCA!
delk
And a letter in the Chicago Tribune lays the blame on Reverend Wright.
TomatoQueen
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lawmaker-steve-scalise-injured-in-gop-baseball-shooting-suspect-james-t-hodgkinson-dies-after-shootout/ar-BBCFi8H?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp
Just posted on msn from WaPo; with remarks from The Putzhead’s Putzhead Steve King of Iowa, whose most recent opposition has withdrawn because of death threats.
Timurid
All kinds of people will come home to Daddy if this violence keeps up, including… HOLY SHIT.
D58826
Over on Huffington –
And as Imentioned in a previous thread the GOP had no problem in 2012 when the same play used an image of Obama in the lead
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-jr-tweets-julius-caesar-capitol-shooting_us_59413b0ee4b0d31854864391?qo&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
Barbara
@Patricia Kayden: Are they willing to take responsibility for the guy who opened fire in a pizza shop based on the incendiary rhetoric of Alex Jones? He is being sentenced today, by the way. As the government says, it’s only by sheer luck that he did not kill someone (he shot at a closed door without knowing what was behind it). People ran for their lives.
Major Major Major Major
@raven: We don’t say “I knew those Muslims were up to no good!” when some nutjob uses his Islamic faith as an excuse to shoot up his coworkers in Southern California. We shouldn’t be tarring BernieBros with this either.
These are things Republicans do, and we’re better than Republicans.
debit
@Timurid: I’m reading this as a successful presidency means a successful country. Do we really want our leadership to say that we want him to fail? I mean, weren’t we all outraged when McTurtle said that about Obama?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo fka Edmund Dantes
Thank you Bernie, for creating the sort of fans that give Paul Ryan the ability to seem leaderly and demand “unity”.
Thank you SOOOOOOOO very much….
D58826
@Barbara: And he has not commented on the events in Portland or Quebec a few months ago.
Corner Stone
@Timurid: Oh, well that clears that up. Thanks
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@Tazj:
Oh they will. For themselves.
quakerinabasement
@EBT: That is not how it’s done. Assassination is not a valid tool of democracy.
? Martin
@rikyrah:
Let me just repeat that for those who might have missed it upthread.
D58826
@Major Major Major Major: I agree. I’m no fan of Bernie’s but I don’t remember him ever using violent rhetoric about either the GOP or Hillary. Sure he has called for ‘revolutionary changes’ but that is in the most generic sense of the word. Just like the micro chip has lead to revolutionary changes in our society. He wasn’t talking about taking pot shots at people.
rikyrah
@The Moar You Know:
Homeless man in New York City
Young man about to graduate from college and be a commissioned officer.
Man minding his own business and shot for being a Muslim in Kansas (he was not Muslim)
Two men killed in Portland for defending young Muslim women being attacked
Yet, WE aren’t supposed to connect the dots?
That these were just ‘ lone wolfs’, instead of Domestic Terrorists.
I DO NOT accept responsibility for some guy shooting at a White Supremacist and his cohorts, who DO plan on killing hundreds of thousands of people in order to give millionaires and billionaires tax cuts.
I’ll ask again…was the guy’s weapon(s) legal?
If so, it’s just another day in America.
rikyrah
@D58826:
Hasn’t said shyt about the young man who was killed in Maryland by an Alt-right follower.
Good reminder on his silence about Quebec.
Yoda Dog
@Emma: Yes. This, exactly. Who gives a shit, let them crow like the toddlers they are today because he’s a berner. Nothing has changed. This whole story will be swept up in the shitstorm like everything else in no time.
quakerinabasement
@Citizen Alan: I hear you. How much did you care when it was Gabby Gifford? Our reaction now should be the same
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
In the past I’ve said some violent things here regarding GOP pols and other right wing nuts. Given what just happened, I think I’ll refrain from it in the future. Glad no one was killed
Raven Onthill
My tweet to Rand Paul:
Emma
@rikyrah: Do we have two Emmas posting in the thread?
SenyorDave
I do have a bone to pick with Trump on his statement that the entire nation is praying for Scalise. I’m not. He’s a POS white supremacist who is reaping what he sowed.
raven
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: I tried to tell you.
Amir Khalid
@Timurid:
Oh, come on. There’s nothing wrong with praying for the health and safety of a person (and even of their family) you detest.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@quakerinabasement: When they talk about 2nd amendment solutions and watering the tree of liberty with blood its pretty hard to care about them. They helped create this world. Giffords, to my knowledge, never did any of those things
jl
I hope disturbing and dangerous incidents like this make people think twice before venting violent political revenge fantasies in public, and on this here blog. That is just my opinion, since it is a free country and Cole’s blog.
.
And, yeah, I did notice the seemingly automatic statement, for a middle age white assailant, that there must be emotional or mental disturbance issues, while vile generalizations to whole groups seems automatic in other cases. How about public figures and reporters just say nothing until they learn something?
Corner Stone
@quakerinabasement: Umm, why?
debit
@SenyorDave: Yeah. I’m glad he’s not dead, but as far as I’m concerned, he voted for this to happen. So no, no prayers or even especially good thoughts.
Raoul
1) Chuck Todd in full centrist Broder here:
2) CNN says there’s an active shooter in SF, near bayshore freeway, from 9:40am PDT.
3) I just asked Chuckie if we can talk about the SF shooter, since it probably doesn’t involve a GOP politician. I’m sure he’ll bother to answer me on the twitt-box.
germy
(rawstory)
hovercraft
@delk:
Wait what? I had assumed he and Bill Ayers could go back to living their lives now that their love child was out of office. Let me guess his “God Damn America” radicalized the left?
MomSense
Can we all agree that the actual problem this tragedy highlights is that we need to limit access to firearms and high capacity magazines? Can we agree that there are people who should not be able to access firearms (for some this is a temporary situation)?
jl
@Amir Khalid: I agree. Always helpful to try to separate political and ideological disputes and differences from common human decency. But, hey, maybe that is just me?
debit
@germy: I guess Donnie Jr doesn’t follow Chuckles on Twitter.
Timurid
@Amir Khalid:
Praying for his safety is fine. Somebody harming him would be a nightmare.
Praying for his success? No sale.
Hal
So what were the reactions after Gabby Giffords was shot? I’m sure there are a ton of tweets from the many conservatives we will know doubt be hearing from in the coming days and weeks speaking of loan shooters in no way encouraged by conservative propaganda and paranoia.
And seriously folks. Some of you need to calm the fuck down. Acting like any agenda is shit now because of some nut is stupid and self defeating. If strident conservatives are thrilled because this proves some point of theirs about how mean everyone is being to Trump, that’s a message only they and their ilk will buy in to.
jl
@hovercraft: It’s a reflex reaction among the bigots among us.
rikyrah
Brevard student says he was threatened with noose
by Kimberly King
BREVARD, N.C. (WLOS) —
Quenton Sample-French, a 17-year-old African-American Brevard High School student, has decided to go public with his allegations of racism and hate at the school.
“I want this to stop,” Sample-French said Friday. “This is not OK. It’s getting unbearable to stay at that school.”
On May 18, he sid, a classmate threatened to hang him with a noose and referred to him with a racial slur.
“It was after school and I was walking home and he called me over to his truck. He called me the n-word. I started walking home, and he said, ‘I have a noose for you right now.’”
Court records confirm the altercation his mother said she saw in surveillance video from the back parking lot of Brevard High.
“You see the defendant get out of his truck, and the next thing you see is him swinging the noose,” Rose Sample said.
Sample said she then saw the 16-year-old male student start swinging the noose, and then jut his hand out and swing it toward her son.
Her son said the suspect, who is charged with three misdemeanors, simple assault, communicating threats and ethnic intimidation, also pulled a pocket knife on him.
debit
@Timurid: Hey, I know! We should totally primary her.
catclub
@? Martin:
I wonder if it was something like “We are against white supremacy but wish to retain the right to fly the stars and bars (only to celebrate our culture) and call it the war of northern aggression.”
quakerinabasement
@EBT: That is not how it’s done. Assassination is not a valid tool of democracy.@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: Are you saying Scalise *deserved* it? I don’t think you are, but you can speak for yourself.
ThresherK
I have already read some Wilmerites saying “Well, we know what the Democrats are gonna do with this (information about the shooter)”.
They’re not worried about the pukefunnel: The GOA, the NRA, all of Fox News, one third of the “respectable” media, or whatever crawls out from under the rocks of AM radio, 4chan and the Neo-Nazis. Their political worries are synaptically wired to immediately blurt out “Democrats are gonna lambaste Bernie about this and stop our progressive revolution.”
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@rikyrah: Hope they throw the book at that jerk with the noose. Who the fuck does that?
Barbara
@Raoul: According to local press, it’s a UPS employee going after fellow employees.
quakerinabasement
@MomSense: Those are reasonable ideas.
Mike in DC
In America, there’s a special term for this two mass shootings in one day phenomenon. We call it “Wednesday”.
debit
@quakerinabasement: I think he’s saying that Scalise voted for it.
ETA: or more correctly, voted again and again for laws and an environment were such a thing could happen. That it happened to him was simply karma.
EBT
@quakerinabasement: It’s all well and good to demand people adhere to decorum and rules, but when people feel like their lives are on the line all the bullshit trappings people have created go out the window. I am not condoning it, I am merely commenting that it exists.
That said I wouldn’t be shedding tears if Scalese picks up MRSI in the hospital.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@quakerinabasement: Do I think he morally deserved it? Depends on his voting record and other actions he has taken throughout his life. Legally, no.
However, I’ve come to realize that, until they go the full jackboot, proactive physical violence isn’t the answer and will only invite retaliations. A Reichstag fire, if you will. An excuse.
rikyrah
THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O’DONNELL 6/13/17
Exclusive: Sen. Franken says Sessions violated his recusal
In an exclusive interview with Lawrence O’Donnell, Sen. Al Franken responds to what Jeff Sessions said today about his now-infamous answer to Sen. Franken that he “did not have communications with the Russians.”
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@debit: Pretty much this is what I meant
manyakitty
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: And that will be my answer to all comments. “He took YOUR advice. What’s your problem?”
Chris
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:
Indeed.
It can never be said enough, but: the NRA bans weapons at its conventions.
quakerinabasement
@Corner Stone: Why? Because this is how unstable, broken states conduct politics. If we only care about politically-motivated violence when the victim is on our side, we should not be surprised to see that violence become normalized.
On the other hand, if attempted assassination is sometimes justifiable, I need to be convinced.
Quinerly
Probably beating this to death but he was definitely a HRC hater: http://heavy.com/news/2017/06/james-hodgkinson-alexandria-gop-baseball-shooter-shooting-gunman-identified-illinois/
MomSense
The alleged shooter has a history of domestic abuse. This is why so many states do not allow people who commit domestic assault to have firearms and why we need to close the secondary sale loopholes so that they cannot get firearms.
BretH
5 shot in San Francisco UPS facility
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/Active-Shooter-San-Francisco-Police-428441423.html
Just another day in Paradise.
jl
@MomSense: Yes. Just heard that in a news report. That is a very common thread connecting people who commit attacks like this.
D58826
@Hal: Well just prior to the shooting, the Wonder of Wasilla had put out an election map with bulls eye targets on a number of democratic districts. One of the districts was Gabby’s.
The Gov. of Texas recently bragged about carrying a paper target that he could use when dealing with reporters.
IT should go w/o saying that this type of violent rhetoric is unacceptable in a free society but obviously it has to be repeated. The blood isn’t even dry and we have a host of GOOPPERS blaming the democrats. Yet when the news broke, the democratic ball teams, practicing on another field, stopped and prayed for their injured colleagues. I would hope that the GOP would do the same thing if the situation was reversed. On the other hand I would have been totally surprised if the democrats hadn’t said a prayer.
Chris
@D58826:
But they’re all atheists. Atheists who hate Jesus. And want to ban prayer.
/wingnut
Quinerly
@rikyrah:
Very good segment last night.
EBT
@MomSense: Not that easy any more. It’s illegal to regulate the 80% finished receivers that companies sell (it has been tried in court and lost repeatedly), and it only takes a moderately skilled person to drill a couple holes and turn that 80% receiver into a fully functional receiver. All the other parts of the gun you can buy or fashion far easier, and are also not subject to regulation.
But if that wasn’t scary enough there is a range of purpose made CiC machines that only make gun receivers, making a functional semi or full auto garage gun has never been easier to do, or harder to regulate.
Cermet
@MomSense: Yet those shot or shot at want to relax such laws; funny …not.
D58826
@Amir Khalid: As a Christian I believe it is called turning the other cheek
rikyrah
Important point here from Greg: Republicans are angry that Trump revealed that they KNOWINGLY voted for a bill that would hurt people. 1/ https://t.co/kZHbNKJNMz
— Joy Reid (@JoyAnnReid) June 14, 2017
Rs are reportedly angry at Trump for calling heath bill “mean.”
All he really did is unmask *their* scam:https://t.co/XDgIIrS7a4
— Greg Sargent (@ThePlumLineGS) June 14, 2017
And now they and their Senate colleagues want to jam through a slightly less cruel bill (it kills Medicaid coverage more slowly) in SECRET.
— Joy Reid (@JoyAnnReid) June 14, 2017
rikyrah
they were going to have a meeting today on the Hill to discuss making obtaining gun silencers EASIER.
because, that’s who they are.
Corner Stone
@quakerinabasement: This is the trap we have fallen for at least 30 years now. Always a ratchet downward. Always up to us to compromise, to give our best effort, to clean up the mess. To turn the other cheek when their rhetoric becomes legislation, or political violence.
I see zero reason why I should expend any effort or energy whatsoever in giving one damn about ginning up the same level of concern for Scalise that I may have had for Giffords.
Because you know what’s going to happen? They are going to put on a great show of unity, play this charity baseball game. The next day the R Senate is going to move legislation the public is strongly against and no one on our side has seen. It will do all the awful things we know it is intended to, including actually killing people. That is not hyperbole. Nor is it rhetoric. It’s going to take the lives of some, the wealth and well being of others and shave years off the life span of millions of people.
Booger
When are chubby middle aged white men going to start taking responsibility for the actions of their communities? This white on white crime is inexcusable.
manyakitty
@Jeffro: Appropriate and reasonable. Good.
pamelabrown53
@Quinerly: @168.
Fantastic link, Quinerly. Thank you so much. You and rikyrah are both top notch linkers!
rikyrah
A Few Thoughts on the Sessions’ Hearing
By JOSH MARSHALL
Published JUNE 13, 2017 5:52 PM
Let me share a few quick thoughts on today’s Sessions hearing.
The big and overriding takeaway from this hearing is that Sessions declined to answer almost all the pertinent questions – in most cases because they involved his discussions with President Trump and in at least one case (or this was what I understood him to be saying) discussions with other leaders at the Department of Justice. There’s an important back and forth about what basis he had for this refusal. That is important in itself. But the gist, as Sessions eventually seemed to concede, was that he was refusing to answer because he did not want to preclude or render moot the President’s ability to assert executive privilege.
Sessions himself eventually seemed to jettison this idea about longstanding DOJ policy and come back to what we might call this deferred executive privilege. Again, whole conversation about what the White House is up to sending people up to the Hill where they know they’ll get these questions and not making a decision in advance. But big picture, Sessions declined to answer most or all of the critical questions on the basis of executive privilege.
One more point on this front, Sessions appeared willing to answer some questions about what the President said in specific conversations and not others. I’d be curious to hear from lawyers whether this puts the asserted privilege on weaker ground.
We leave this hearing a bit murky on what I think was the main point: just what James Comey was referring to when he talked about Session’s role in any Russia related investigation being ‘problematic’. It certainly seems like Comey was referring to a third meeting at the Mayflower Hotel. That appeared to be what he mentioned in the subsequent closed session. Sessions categorically denied anything more than perhaps a handshake and pleasantries that he forgot.
D58826
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: Agreed. But the grumping on this blog is vastly different than statements made by public officals on nation TV.
I voted for Bill Clinton twice. When the story about Monica broke, I said to my wife that if he showed up on my door step I would beat him upside the head with a two by four. And as the scandal unfolded I said I would be more than happy to buy rotten veggies to throw at him when he was in the stocks on Penna.. Ave. Would never have done it and was purely private venting. Way different than a Congress critter on TV. I bet there where more than a few times that the Kenyan usurper stuck large pins in his Kenyan mojo magic evil doll after dealing with the GOP. But in public he always behaved like an adult and a professional.
Barbara
@jl: They see violence as a way of getting what they want. Sometimes they are incapable of seeing anything but violence as a solution.
TenguPhule
@Bruce K:
Water technically isn’t wet. It makes things wet.
rikyrah
@MomSense:
But, but but…all he did was beat up on a woman…
how dare you say that he shouldn’t have access to firearms [/snark]
Oh man, how do I loathe the NRA.
Patricia Kayden
@Barbara: There are so many instances of Rightwingers shooting up people but that’s a good example. At least people on our side are advocating for gun control. Less guns = less shootings.
Frankensteinbeck
I actually don’t think this will affect anything. The sad truth is that right-wing or left-wing, violence like this disappears in our cultural consciousness. In a couple of days, 99% of the population will have moved on. It will provide a week of extra motivation for Republicans, then Trump will embarrass them again.
My one caveat: Republicans are extreme cowards. Republican congressmen will not forget this. They won’t be angry, they’ll be terrified. How that motivates them, I don’t know.
Barbara
@D58826: I have willfully forgotten the person’s identity, but didn’t someone as a campaign stunt auction off the right to shoot at a target of his opponent? It’s all laughs and giggles until you are the target. Do they not get why these incidents are so dangerous?
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
Bernie Sanders was an Independent who decided to enter the Democratic primary.
The Democrats rejected him at the primary in favor of Hillary Clinton.
But I suspect facts will not convince them.
TenguPhule
@sharl:
A voice of sanity at Balloon Juice?
We can’t have that, now can we?
scav
@rikyrah: Oh, my gut take was that the Trumpster doesn’t and never did care how “mean” the bill was is or will be — and probably never bothered with the details of same. What their secrecy about contents allowed him is an opportunity to jump in and take the white hat as hisHisHis-all-his: whatever rolls out of the sausage will be judged as improved by his magnanimous, beneficent care and all the unpopular bits will be those of his nasty nasty but still fawning subordinates.
TenguPhule
@Frankensteinbeck:
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate. Hate leads to Fascism.
Mike in NC
I thought any statement coming from Trump had to start with the words, “Only I am capable of [fill in the blank]”.
Bruce K
@TenguPhule: It’s stuff like that which really crosses up my Cromwells. Next you’re going to tell me the sky isn’t blue.
:P
Jeffro
@Frankensteinbeck:
Unfortunately I think you’re right. If Sandy Hook didn’t turn things 180 degrees around in this country…or even 5 degrees…I don’t know what will.
This. And at least one GOP Congressman has already said he’s going to be packing at his next (and presumably, all future) town hall(s). Great idea, Rep Collins. What could possible go wrong? Actually let me help you with those scenarios, my good man:
– angry constituent reaches into his pocket…you plug him…he’s found with a cough drop in that pocket
– same scenario, only you miss and plug a kid that someone brought to the town hall
– prankster sets off firecrackers outside the town hall…you draw your gun…cop draws his gun to stop you…you both shoot?
– crowd really gets agitated about millions dying if AHCA passes…and you’ve just about had enough of these dang agitators…
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone:
Even as jest, those words should never be in the same sentence.
TenguPhule
@Bruce K:
You better sit down for this one.
Mike J
Rep Chris Collins from NY says today’s shooting is just like last week when protesters left notes at his office.
ruemara
@Citizen Alan: I’m not. A guy who positions himself as being similar to Davis Duke is no friend of mine.
TenguPhule
@Frankensteinbeck:
Its all fun and games until an actual Republican gets attacked. Then it becomes personal to them.
If Trump and Sessions are not already illegally burrowing into Democratic and free media organizations for information, they will now.
trollhattan
It turns out Hodgkinson was also Steincurious and hated Hillary as much as Trump.
sharl
While I don’t think it will be much of a problem among the folks who post/comment here, particularly on days like this it’s worth remembering the big picture, and keeping our eyes on the prize, so to speak. Here’s a piece worth reading that was posted some months ago by a very smart young freelance journalist who covers the Texas state legislature, a place where some of the nation’s worst political sausage-making takes place on a regular basis (at least if you are a poor child).
TenguPhule
@D58826:
The GOP would have popped champagne so fast you’d think it was raining corks if it had been the other way around.
Major Major Major Major
@scav: I think that even this gives him too much credit. Probably just that whoever he last talked to before he made that statement convinced him it was mean.
TenguPhule
@trollhattan:
So his political sense was as bad as his aiming skills.
Frankensteinbeck
@TenguPhule:
They already have hate. They’re not going to get any more of it. The physical fear is new.
TenguPhule
@quakerinabasement:
Unfortunately, its traditional in banana republics.
TenguPhule
@Frankensteinbeck: Never think they can’t have more hate. Hate is an unlimited reservoir.
debit
@TenguPhule: Sorry, but after St Ronnie was shot and nothing really changed it was clear to me that the battle for gun control was lost.
D58826
From the Twitter universe
Maxine Waters
See that’s not hard
Sen. Bernie Sanders condemns shooting at congressional baseball practice http://huffp.st/AWPGvG0
from twitter
‘If Scalise’s Cap Police security detail was not there today, lawmakers said they would have had no protection and been “sitting ducks. ‘ Well since it’s the people’s House maybe they should join the rest of us in the duck pond (snark)
there is a tweet that I can’t get to copy reminding us that Der Fuhrer said it may be ok to shot Hillary to prevent her from appoint liberal judges.
msnbc is reporting 2 killed and 3 others wounded in shooting at San Francisco UPS facility http://on.msnbc.com/2sb6P5m plus the 6 dead last week in the Fla workplace shooting
but the gop runs true to form – Rep. Barry Loudermilk, who was on the field this morning, tells reporters Congress should look into letting members carry guns in DC
Pelosi: “On days like today, there are no Democrats or Republicans, only Americans united in our hopes and prayers for the wounded
UPDATE: Republican whose opponent left race because of death threats blames violence from ‘the left’ for shooting https://thinkprogress.org/an-online-rush-to-blame-liberal-rhetoric-for-virginia-mass-shooting-c85e80125b16 …
Christian Activist: My Prayers Made “Witch” Hillary Sick (And Jerry Brown Should Hang From A Rope) [VIDEO] – http://www.joemygod.com/2017/06/14/christian-activist-prayers-made-witch-hillary-sick-jerry-brown-hang-rope-video/
and finally, it has rolled off twitter but Obama called a couple of GOP members of Congress this am to express his concern over the shooting. CLASS with very large letters
Barbara
@Mike J: Notes and plays are how dissent is supposed to be expressed. Guns are not. The two can never be the same.
hovercraft
@Mike J:
Well someone did say that the pen is mightier than the sword, so perhaps he thinks it was meant literally?
Barbara
@debit: No kidding. Even Reagan didn’t care about it.
sherparick
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: Of course they don’t condone it. Nothing Bernie or Hillary and 99% of their supporters have done the last few years have been outside the norms of democratic politics. We find this a horror and why we want to keep the mentally unstable away from semi-automactic weapons. However, consider Limbaugh, Ingraham, Gingrich, the various Trump family members and what they will say and do. They will blast the Democrats for inspiring the weak minded with their harsh rhetoric about Trump and Russia, Trump and his self-business, Republicans and Trump about taking away access to health care to about 1/4 of the population, etc. They will say Obama, Hillary, Sanders, et al. should all apologize and then should just all shut up after acknowledging Trump’s greatness and wonder of Trump and Ryan’s dystopia.
These guys and gals will do thie30 minutes of hate.
There is no appeasing these folks. And even if we liberals and democrats did disappear, the Right would need us to serve the role of Goldstein in 1984. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Goldstein
I suspect, liberal or socialists leanings are not, Mr. Hodgkinson chose a spectacular suicide by cop as a way out of his life predicaments. I would not be surprised at depression and unexplained health issues.
TenguPhule
@debit: Its not gun control that’s going to be the problem.
Its going to be security/police/federal officers who start getting more trigger happy against people of color, people who look muslim, DFH and any kind of non-fascist protestor.
Its going to be the illegal spying that Trump and Sessions are both going to authorize for “security”.
Its going to be the GOP fuckwits who will try to make political hay out of this, never mind that nothing happened when schoolchildren were murdered, they obviously weren’t people of importance like Republicans are.
EBT
@TenguPhule: It’s pretty goddamn traditional here.
Oh wait…
D58826
On a totally different topic and would have probably been the lead this AM is the fire in London. 12 dead and an unknown number missing. I was looking at some of the video and have never seen an apt. tower that totally engulfed in fire. The image today is of a 27 story building totally gutted.
I have seen video of old abandoned warehouse fires that engulf the entire building but they usually have lots of open space. You would think there would be fire walls in an apt. building that would slow the progress of a fire. The building apparently had lots of code violations so I guess not.
D58826
help in moderation. I guess to many links
Mnemosyne
@sherparick:
I suspected that about the cop-killer in Dallas as well — he wanted to go down in a blaze of glory by killing some cops first. Unfortunately, he was ex-military and a good shot.
Mnemosyne
@D58826:
“Massive code violations” was exactly my thought when I saw a photo from London. Modern buildings that are up to code don’t go up like a tinderbox.
? Martin
Every black and muslim person in America: “Welcome to the party, pal!”
Mike J
House cancelled hearing about making it easier to buy silencers.
sharl
@? Martin: UR POLITICIZIN’ A TRAGEDY!!!11!! {/sad-snark}
trollhattan
@D58826:
Those very thoughts crossed as I watched the videos last night. That a modern high-rise can become engulfed so thoroughly should simply not occur. BBC has noted the council building (i.e., public housing) had its management turned over to a private company, which received lots of complaints about non-functioning alarms and the like. Final death toll is likely to be very high, given it happened at night when most are home. Thatcher’s Britain lives on.
Major Major Major Major
@Mike J: How quaint.
Mnemosyne
I’m getting an ad from Billy Graham
IndustriesMinistries saying I should sign a petition saying “I am not ashamed.”I’m tempted to click through to tell them they damn well ought to be ashamed of what they’ve turned this country into.
Jeffro
@hovercraft: that’s pitiful.
But not as pitiful as this:
Seriously!
He should try doing ‘active shooter’ drills a couple times a year in any given public school in America, and see how he likes it…
Patricia Kayden
@debit: After those poor children were shot at Sandy Hook and nothing changed, that made it clear that Republicans were in the pocket of the NRA and would do absolutely nothing about gun control reform. Polls at that time showed that around 90% of Americans wanted something to be done but nothing happened.
Patricia Kayden
@Mike J: Hmmm mmm.
Jeffro
@? Martin: Exactly. Maybe some of them will ‘get it’, and think about the multiple ways we could all be working together on this issue, instead of always defaulting to “MOAR GUNZ!!1!”
Corner Stone
@trollhattan:
And when that private company is found to be a shell, inside a shell, and everyone involved shrugs their shoulder and says, “meh”?
Just sayin’
scav
@Major Major Major Major: Well, I admit I’m assuming enough coodinated reflex on his part to be phototropic toward the spotlight. Note that I said phototropic, not in any way photogenic.
trollhattan
@Jeffro:
My little one had not one but two active shooter events while in elementary school. One proved to be a false alarm but the first was very real and ended with the gunman dead and a cop dog shot, close by. Hellova country we’ve got here.
Mnemosyne
@Patricia Kayden:
And we now know that Russian money is funding the NRA. Hmmmm … ?
Shalimar
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: When you tell people to water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants, you don’t get to control who they see as a tyrant. In this case, it was apparently Steve Scalise.
My Truth Hurts
There’s is no such thing as an “alt-left”. It is a made up boogeyman of the very real alt-right. Please cut that nonsense out.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Shalimar: Yes, and I also note, that if you go over to TPM they have a story up about the reactions of the R’s that were there. They are all very upset and in fact one of their colleagues is recommending PTSD counseling etc. In fact some of them were near tears, remember when Obama cried with the Sandy Hook parents he was a big p****y.
hovercraft
@Jeffro:
Like all bullies they are cowards. That’s why they like Twitler, he’s a bullies bully, he bullies the people who’ve been bullying them. Forcing them to pretend that men and women are equal, forcing them to pretend that the darkies are equal, well no ore of that shit, Twitler tells it like it is and doesn’t care when the lame stream media reaches for the fainting couches, he’s a mans man! They are all wanna be tough guys, who when push comes to shove would cower in the corner crying for their mommies.
These are the same people terrified of “terrorism” even though thy live in bumfuck nowhere where they will never be attacked except by the dumbass anti-government assholes who believe much of the same shit they do, while we godless liberal cowards go about our lives knowing that they risk of terrorism is less than my chances of dying in my bathroom.
Pathetic, the lot of them.
quakerinabasement
@TenguPhule: It is traditional in countries with broken governments, yes. When I posted originally, my first thought was also “banana republic,” but the same politically-driven violence exists in places other than Central America or small, tropical nations. (And Costa Rica is all that and not a “banana republic” in the pernorative sense.”
Anyway, exactly right. This was an attempted political assassination. That can’t be justified in any way.
Chyron HR
@My Truth Hurts:
There is no such thing as an “alt-right”. They’re just good honest white working class people who’ve been abandoned by the Democratic party. The longest-serving independent in Congress said so.
Mnemosyne
@My Truth Hurts:
All right, whoever had 2 hours and 45 minutes in the betting pool wins. 2 hours and 45 minutes, claim your bragging rights.
Karen
@D58826: I didn’t say anything cause this whole blame someone and not taking responsibility has pissed me off; the wingnuts who are owned by NRA and gun makers can’t seem to get it through their heads that they are responsible for the level of white, male terrorism.
debit
@Patricia Kayden: I used to do payroll for a pawn shop. The owner was positively gleeful any time there was a high profile shooting because people would rush in to buy guns, sure that THIS time the evil libruls were going to snatch away their guns. I would guess that there’s a line at every gun shop in the US today.
BretH
@hovercraft:
Well someone did say that the penis mightier than the sword, so perhaps he thinks it was meant literally?
FIFY
debit
@Shalimar: Something something something, leopards, faces, etc.
hovercraft
@My Truth Hurts:
As someone earlier said, this guy seems to be part of the libertarian ethos, fans of the Paul’s and BS, because like the others, he wants to take apart the establishment, they are so dumb they don’t get that one side wants to create a wild west, while the other wants to break up the institutions and create new ones, more egalitarian ones.
Mnemosyne
@quakerinabasement:
Sadly, it’s quite traditional in the US as well and seems to run in about 30-year cycles. You can draw a line from Huey Long to Robert Kennedy to Gabby Giffords.
Aleta
About the fire in London
EL4C @EL4JC·8h
David Collins of #GrenfellTower residents association gives a shocking account of the local councils refusal to heed residents safety fears.
https://mobile.twitter.com/EL4JC/status/874931655148023809
TenguPhule
@quakerinabasement: Sadly, I think we can expect a continuing trend.
Its not going to take the full wingnuts long to figure out that “Hey, we can get rid of those pesky judges and elected Democrats faster and cheaper then having to donate to campaigns and its okay now because the other side started it!”
I would love to proven wrong about this.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Senate Judiciary committee to have hearings on Comey firing.
Karen
I hate the fact that because the guy was white male he won’t be called what he is a terrorist; politicians are blaming everyone other than those who refused to back gun controls because they are owned by the NRA. Seems like every time I turn around another state is getting rid of any and all gun controls; more and more there is conceal carry without needing permits.
As I told someone on Facebook, I don’t expect members of Congress to do anything until a number of them have been killed and their own lives placed in jeopardy
Mnemosyne
@Aleta:
There’s a reason for the old saying Safety regulations are written in blood.
I hope that at least a few people from that management company go to jail, but I doubt that they will.
Major Major Major Major
@Karen:
He was a ‘liberal’, prominent Republicans will be calling him a terrorist by sundown.
debit
@Mnemosyne: Never forget that Sinclair Lewis wrote The Jungle to raise awareness of labor abuses and immigrant exploitation, but what people took from it was that their food was full of rat feces and spiced with floor sweepings.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Ayn Rand Acolytes are in no way, shape or form “liberals”. They’re the people we’re supposed to be reaching out towards (so say the consultants), though for the life of me I can’t understand why we’d want to.
sharl
More info keeps rolling in on the shooter. He appears to have been a genuine leftie, at least for quite a few years, who very recently appears to have gone into some kind of tailspin in his personal life:
rikyrah
@Jeffro:
the lack of self-awareness
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: One, do we know he was a Randian? All I’ve seen is the sort of Sanders/Stein/Lock Her Up! stuff I associate with the deluded far left. Two, since he posted said stuff, the rest doesn’t matter, he’s enough of a “liberal” to be a “Democrat terrorist”.
Edit: see #256 above
TenguPhule
@rikyrah: Its only about them. The rest of us can just F off.
trollhattan
@rikyrah:
Cripes, I wonder if he’s set foot in a Safeway since Gabby Giffords?
Mothra
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Thank you for stepping up to apologize for the atrocities committed by your gender. / Sarcasm
sharl
Oof:
Timurid
Charleston, Lafayette, Colorado Springs, San Bernardino, Orlando, Dallas, Baton Rouge, Portland…. blah, blah, blah, blah, platitudes, thoughts and prayers, blah, blah… and now, suddenly, elected officials are showing real emotion. Because this one threatened people who really matter.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
Maybe he should ask these parents in Ohio how they feel about baseball fields now. Fortunately, in Ohio, no one was hurt.
JPL
Scalise and another victim are in critical condition. Hopefully, they are both okay.
MomSense
@rikyrah:
Wonder if he has ever considered how we feel when we tell our kids we love them before sending them off to school.
Mothra
@rikyrah: Like there’s a safe place from mass shooters in America (malls schools universities doctor’s offices parking lots movies…)
rikyrah
@sharl:
once again..
pointing out..
WHITE SHOOTER BEING GIVEN CONTEXT
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Downstate Illinois is kind of like Kern County. It’s possible that a white man in his 60s is a lifelong liberal, but it’s unlikely.
Jeffro
@trollhattan:
I’m so sorry. I hope you and your little one are able to move on okay from that.
I’m in kind of an odd position, having seen this from multiple angles. My high school was taken over by a distraught student with a rifle several decades ago, with all 4,000 of us ‘sheltering in place’ well before that was a thing. (Actually it was more like “bored out of our fucking minds” as this was before smartphones!) Fortunately the kid surrendered without a single shot fired…almost makes one nostalgic for the good ol’ days…
I’ve also seen how this has developed in the schools, first as a teacher and then as a principal. Schools have become more and more secure, which has been good to an extent, but there’s quite the ‘bunker mentality’ out there at this point. I’ve dealt with nuts from my (former) district office who not only want the schools completely locked down all day every day, but also want individual classrooms to have the doors shut and locked at all times. (Um, hell no) And the constant lock-down drilling helps reinforce fears and ramp up anxieties about these very improbable events when kids – unfortunately – have other things out there that are a lot more likely to hurt them. Like looking at their flippin’ phones while they’re driving.
It’s very similar to the war on terror in my opinion: let’s spare no expense, let’s bend/twist our principles almost out of recognition, and then let’s go do everything but the obvious.
It would take a very brave leader or leaders indeed to continue to pound the facts and data home to America: we lose a ridiculous number of citizens to gunfire each year, especially compared to other countries. And all this while the violent crime rate has been going down for three decades.
I’m not optimistic that they’ll change, but let’s see if any Rs come around on this. It’s a problem with multiple moving parts, and we can work on many fronts to start bringing down the body count.
Mike in DC
@JPL:
You mean, you hope they will be okay. Critical condition is definitely not okay.
JPL
@MomSense: My adult son always reminds me, if I forget to tell him I love him.
Mnemosyne
@Timurid:
I’m guessing that what will come out of this is legislation to increase the penalties for trying to kill politicians. And nothing else.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: See point two.
trollhattan
@JPL:
Seconded. Nobody needs this.
Cacti
I said it all along.
There’s a thimble’s worth of difference between Bernie Bros and deplorables.
sharl
@Timurid:
While it isn’t totally unique to conservative elites (as well as a lot of “just regular” conservative folks), I’ve noticed that conservative compassion only seems to exhibit itself when there is a personal connection between the conservative and whomever the afflicted party is (health crisis, crime victim…whatever).
The long departed compassionate conservative Jack Kemp – who was sincere about it, as far as I could ever tell – was the rare exception, so rare as to be a freak of US politics.
It seems to be one of those fundamental markers that distinguishes conservatives and people on the left, IMO.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
No, I get that we’re going to get tarred with his brush, just like Black Lives Matter got tarred by the actions of the Dallas killer even though he was explicitly and vocally anti-BLM.
But I do think that this is an interesting sign of the ongoing but rarely talked-about civil war inside the Republican Party. In 2012, my late dad was very vocal that he was going to write in Ron Paul rather than vote for Romney, and he was a lifelong Republican.
Trump is currently papering over some of the divisions in the Republican Party, but they’re still there. The fact that some Paulistas jumped ship to Bernie doesn’t erase the existing Republican divisions that Trump is only exacerbating.
Barbara
@sharl: I read that he was shot “in the hip area,” and was in surgery. A bullet can do a lot of damage that isn’t immediately obvious. There could be internal bleeding or holes in vital organs, some of which can spill their contents and cause sepsis. Let’s hope his critical condition is mostly precautionary.
I actually went to that old Rand Paul tweet and saw that people were starting to respond to it again, so I did too, asking who gets to define tyranny. There is such smug self-assurance from people like Paul that it will be somebody else who is perceived as the tyrant. The lack of self-awareness of people in power is always a stunning thing to behold.
sharl
@rikyrah: And again, I agree. But that’s a reason to provide context for all** such situations, regardless of pigmentation level of the shooter, or his/her (usually his) religion, economic status, citizenship status, etc.
**Also, I’m asking for a gold-shitting unicorn this Christmas.
Corner Stone
@sharl:
Do not kid yourself about Jack Kemp. The man was a fucking monster.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@sharl: Starting to sound like cop assisted suicide now. Damn irritating that someone who did give a shit tried to help him too and it didn’t work.
Mnemosyne
@sharl:
Poor Jack Kemp got fired as the head of Housing and Urban Development because he foolishly thought he was supposed to use that office to help make the lives of poor people better.
Villago Delenda Est
Well, the shooter has died.
How convenient for the right wing rhetoric machine.
Timurid
@rikyrah:
Given who his victims are, I doubt that will last.
There’s white privilege and then there’s privilege privilege.
Villago Delenda Est
@Barbara: Rand Paul and the rest of the libertarians want to destroy every advance in government since the Middle Ages. They want to return to feudalism.
Fuck them.
JPL
Four people were murdered in a workplace violence incident that happened in a UPS center in San Francisco today. I’m sorry if this has been mentioned, but they have families suffering the horror of gun tragedies today, also.
Barbara
@Mnemosyne: Of course those divisions are still there. Look at the Virginia Republican primary for governor. The Washington Post has a map of each county and Gillespie only won Northern Virginia inside the beltway by small margins, did not win outside the Beltway (where Stewart is admittedly very well known) and won in urban and military and a few other areas. My assumption is that there will be vastly reduced Republican turnout for Gillespie this November, and probably more than a few people writing in Stewart’s name, and it is not beyond possibility that Stewart will run third party. I like that possibility the least, because overall lower turnout would be good for turning a few Assembly seats from R to D. To understand what happened, you need to look at counties that routinely vote ruby red. In one of those very rural and small counties that I know well, the difference in the number of D and R voters was less than 30 (380 to 410) and in a normal year, the Republican margin of victory is huge. Last November it was 57% R to 40% D, with 2100 to 1500 voters. It might not be the same story this November, but it’s a big story for right now.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Well, do we know that he was a former Paultard? I know a number of, shall we say, unsophisticated Norcal types who are proud gun-toting system-hating GMO-hating chemtrail-hating Stein-voting LOCK HER UP! pro-single-payer types.
Chris
@sharl:
Yep. Reagan started caring about AIDS when someone he knew was affected.
Karen
@sharl: you have a better chance of getting that unicorn
Barbara
@JPL: I had not heard the death toll when I first looked at it. It is so frustrating, so very infuriating. Nothing makes me understand the concept of learned helplessness more than the level of gun violence in our country.
TenguPhule
@Villago Delenda Est:
They dream of being warlords.
Pity they don’t remember that few of those ever died of old age.
Barbara
@TenguPhule: They need to go back and take Winston Churchill to heart: Democracy is the worst form of government except for every other form of government.
sharl
@Corner Stone:
{Le Sigh…} You’re just gonna destroy even my lessor positive illusions on my journey to the grave, aren’t ya?
trollhattan
@JPL: Story here.
I first read of this in a story that said it was a USPS office and there were three wounded. It’s hard to learn to not take early reports at face value.
Karen
@Chris: I didn’t remember Reagan even caring when Rock Hudson got AIDs; I remember this as standard response, lived near San Fransisco and had family friends come down with AIDS .http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ronald-reagan-aids-crisis_us_565e002ae4b08e945fecef1dI
JPL
@Barbara: The number four might be including the gunman. The story is still not clear, but I know that two others are injured.
The chronicle is reporting 3 killed and the gunman is dead also.
trollhattan
Shut the fvck up, Barry. Predictable Republican is predictable.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Which one of us grew up in Illinois? Downstate IL is not Northern California. It’s West Indiana, or North Missouri.
TenguPhule
@Barbara: Except its not true. Democracy’s sole virtue is that it has the best chance of stable continuity due to a broader decision making base. Prior forms of government depended heavily on the people who ended up ruling over it and all it took was one bad ruler to bring it all crashing down.
Democracy requires a lot of bad people to bring it all crashing down.
Chris
@Karen:
Well. As Sharl just said on a similar topic, you just destroyed one of the few semi-positive-ish ideas I had about Ronny Ray Gun.
TenguPhule
@trollhattan:
I can forsee hilarity ensuing in the future should this go where I suspect they’re going.
Mnemosyne
@trollhattan:
Hey, maybe this jackass knows how these parents in his state felt when some asshole showed up with a gun to their kids’ baseball game.
And yes, this is a different story and different state than the one I posted earlier. Because this fucking happens all the time, and this jackass only cares when it happens to HIM.
TenguPhule
@Chris: Reagan was Trump with a kinder, gentler PR program.
His bones should be dumped out at sea, he does not deserve to rest in American soil.
Corner Stone
@sharl: Another regular recently accused me of doing that very thing.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: I will ask again, is there any evidence, other than geography, that he was a former Paultard? Because all the social media postings I’ve seen look like the kind of lefty I described.
trollhattan
In the meantime, this happened.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
I haven’t seen anything definitive either way. My point is that the type of gun nut lefty that’s common in NorCal is a rare bird in rural IL. It’s certainly possible, but not common.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Fair enough.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@trollhattan: More Goods Guys with guns is the solution. Should have seen that coming
Corner Stone
Ok, so I have seen how this is going to go.
AN ACT IN ONE SCENE, TWO PARTS:
Democrats: Now that Scalise is in a tough spot we need to come together. We’ll do anything you ask.
Repubs: Pass these bills!
D’s: But…but, these will destroy the environment, crush investment and steal healthcare from millions of people!
R’s: Pass these bills or we will call you traitors!
D’s: Oh. Ok, for the good of the country then. Let’s pass these.
48 HOURS PASS
R’s: The traitor Demonrats are doing everything they can to obstruct our agenda to protect you! Kill them all!
D’s: But…but…
MOB ENTERS
And….scene!
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone:
Sorry, I just can’t see this happening even as satire.
Whatever they may say in public, the GOP have behaved too badly for the Democrats not to notice the irony.
JPL
@Corner Stone: Once again history repeats itself.
Jeffro
@Mnemosyne: Or north Alabama. Or central West Virginia.
(my mom’s side of the family is from there ;)
Immanentize
@trollhattan: This is clearly a product of whatever closed session evidence Admiral Rogers gave. Sounds like Trumpian trouble and a return trip to the Hill for AG Sessions.
Aleta
Tillerson testifying on how Trump told Muslim Arab leaders that they must take responsibility for extremism”
live: http://www.cnn.com/specials/live-video-1?adkey=bn&utm_content=buffera999f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Jeffro
@Corner Stone: It was a little depressing to see everyone jump on the love train today. I mean, I’m all for unity in time of crisis, but this was not a 9/11. (Right, Ms. Pelosi?)
Still looking around for a Dem who can say “Thoughts and prayers for the wounded, of course…and by the way, whenever the GOP’s ready for sensible gun control and a full & open Russia investigation, those are great ways to bring the country together too.” I won’t hold my breath.
Yutsano
Huh. Apparently the easiest way to Tbogg around here is to not get a thread for awhile.
hovercraft
@Corner Stone:
Yeah like they came together after Gabby Giffords, or Sandy Hook? Fuck em, the legislation they want to pass will harm more people. They were supposed to have a hearing about silencers or some such today. Why the fuck would anyone need silencers? No they democrats should all do the thoughts and prayers for those who are hurt and their families, they can talk about the need for mental health screening and such, but under no circumstances should they cooperate on anything other than a resolution condemning political violence if that’s what this is proven to be.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@Corner Stone: Very funny. But those times are past. Or at least I hope.
Praying for Scalise is one thing. Rolling over and passing the GOP agenda “for the good of the country” is another. What’s the upside? The GOP controls Congress. They don’t need D votes to pass anything. It’s their own internal divisions that have screwed them over. Helping them is only going to anger the Democratic base
sharl
The shooter had been voicing liberal/leftist economic/political views since at least 2008, according to his hometown southern Illinois newspaper, the Belleville News-Democrat.
Also, his Congressional representative, Mike Bost (R, IL-12) reported that his office received 14 messages (e-mail and telephone) from the shooter over some time, all of them angry, but none of which “crossed the line”.
Like Betty Cracker and a number of other folks here and elsewhere, there are lefties who live in deep red parts of the country, just as there are right-wingers who live in NYC and SF.
Lots of people let loose with angry political rants – hell, some do that here – but it would be wonderful if we could anticipate when those rare few are gonna cross that line, though government or corporate mind-reading is an extremely chilling concept (existing social and visual profiling methods are bad enough, and not just because they are so often wrong).
trollhattan
@Immanentize:
I didn’t know it was a possibility, so confused am I with all the investigations and committees and players and paths being followed. It’s like parsing a giant bug splatter on the windshield.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@sharl:
Kind of like Minority Report?
Arclite
Fuck. This will only garner sympathy for the GOP, which is the last thing we need.
different-church-lady
@Villago Delenda Est: Oh, I dunno, I doubt having him babbling nonsense “on behalf” of the left was going to be better.
hovercraft
@Aleta:
Yes I’m sure that’s going to end terrorism tomorrow, a stern talking to from a man baby that everyone knows is such a coward he’s afraid to show his face anywhere dissenters outnumber supporters.
@Jeffro:
They have to do the dog and pony, thoughts and prayers, remember democrats are responsible for what any democrat does. Because we are the party of minorities, the party has taken the on the burdens of POC. Just as all Muslims must denounce every terrorist, and all black people must prove that we aren’t gangbangers or criminals, or ladies must prove that we weren’t asking for it, democrats must prove that we didn’t instigate this. Never mind that no party official or elected officeholder has advocated violence, unlike a certain orange shitstain, the fact that some commenters on some blog said kill them all, means we are all responsible.
sharl
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: I knew there was a movie on this very concept, but I could not recall what it was.
Cowgirl in the Sandi
@Mnemosyne:
Downstate Illinois is kind of like Kern County.
It depends how you define ‘downstate’. I am from Belleville and when I lived there we considered it a suburb of St. Louis rater than downstate. St. Clair County tends to be democratic and I knew many people there who were Democrats and fairly liberal (including me). Further south and more inland from the river folks do tend to be more conservative, but I wouldn’t describe Belleville or St. Clair county as like Kern county.
TenguPhule
@hovercraft:
To avoid being caught.
SATSQ.
hovercraft
@Yutsano:
It’s like the grown ups all assume someone else is minding us, or did they just forget they have kids :(
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@Arclite: People will forget about this by this time tommorow or at least by the end of the week. Don’t worry about what Rs will say or do. It wasn’t right what happened this morning, but they had a hand in creating this mess by allowing anyone to have access to firearms.
They’re also trying to pass legislation in secret that would deprive millions of healthcare insurance. Always tell people this, if they ever try to be equivocal or express sympathy for GOP
Mnemosyne
@sharl:
Well, sort of:
We rarely talk about them here, but there really is a contingent of right-leaning people who are anti-corporate and anti-big bank. Right now, those people have no political place to go, which is why they latched onto Bernie as their Great White Hope.
I realize one of the reasons we’re even having this discussion is that the guy is not easily categorized, but I really think that saying that he leaned liberal or left because he was anti-bank and anti-corporate is vastly oversimplifying matters.
ETA: I would want to see letters from him in support of gay marriage or Black Lives Matter before declaring him a liberal or left-leaning guy.
HRA
@Major Major Major Major:
That is my conclusion as well. He voted for Obama in 2012. He ranted about Scalise. This was on CNN online at one of the writings.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@sharl: Yup. Based on a PKD short story I believe
Mike in DC
Sanctions against Russia pass the Senate 97-2. Fate in House uncertain. Expect the WH to push to undermine the bill in various ways.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@TenguPhule: Truth
hovercraft
@TenguPhule:
I get that for criminals, but what is the official bullshit reason? do they claim that when I’m defending mu castle from scary black and brown dudes, I’m going to grab my gun with the silencer on and creep around the house eliminating them one by one before any of them are the wiser? Or is it that lousy shots out shooting animals have more of an advantage? What’s the point, I know it will be bullshit, but what is it?
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:
I’m afraid you’re wrong on this.
The FOX machine is going to run on and amplify this into the GOP mythos. We’re facing weeks of FYNYT “both sides do it” as they emulate in order to attract a few of the FOX base to their click ads.
Perpetual Victim Republicans. Always and forever.
Mnemosyne
@sharl:
Also, as other people have pointed out above, domestic violence charges seem to be a pretty good indicator of which of these guys snap and which ones don’t.
Mike J
@Mnemosyne:
So now Bernie’s not left?
Mnemosyne
That’s weird. My new reply to sharl (about identifying potential shooters before they happen) just vanished. Can a front-pager check the trash, please?
TenguPhule
@hovercraft:
Gun rights.
No, I’m serious, that’s the whole reason. The NRA believes that ANY restriction to any form of addition or modification to a gun should be overturned. No matter how odious and criminal/brownshirt friendly it may be.
Mnemosyne
@Mike J:
Bernie supported both, but downplayed their importance.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@TenguPhule: It has to be pushed back on, starting with all of us on the individual level as citizens and then our elected leaders. It’s a bullshit narrative and I won’t stand for it
Chris
@hovercraft:
Yeah, that’s a great way to put it. There is absolutely a double standard between Republican and Democrat, that I think is basically an aggregation of all the double standards in American society – between white and nonwhite, male and female, Christian and non-Christian, etc.
Karen
@Chris: not sorry, since I had him for governor. this was an actor who was will to inform on other actors to McCarthy so he could keep working. some of those he informed on were never able to find work in film ever again. Dad always claimed it was only way he got half way decent roles
Mnemosyne
@hovercraft:
The official bullshit reason is so people at gun ranges don’t have to wear ear protection.
No, I’m serious, that’s what the stated reason is. Stop laughing.
trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
Front pagers? Forget it Jake, this is Jackaltown.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: Its a Morton’s fork.
Push back: Republicans play the victim and blame Democrats for making it “partisan”. Cue extensive media coverage.
Don’t Push Back: Republicans play the victim and blame Democrats for silently endorsing the shooter. Cue extensive media coverage.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@Mnemosyne: Seriously? That’s what they make ear protectors for! What snowflakes
Chris
@Mike in DC:
Good news for a change!
sharl
@Mnemosyne:
This is a good point, afaict especially applicable among the younger alt-right and keyboard nazi crowd, who were/are at least Trump-friendly, if not outright tangible (voting) supporters. In fact, on a few occasions I’ve seen that some of them support single payer, for whatever that’s worth* (*maybe not much, if it doesn’t drive their political activities as much as their beloved white nationalism shit).
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: That makes even less sense then my explanation.
Chris
@Karen:
Never seen one of his movies and don’t really care to – I think the fact that it’s Reagan would ruin it for me. I believe it; his public persona to me seemed pompous and overacting. I have no trouble believing he wasn’t a great actor in Hollywood, either.
hovercraft
@TenguPhule: @? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:
can you say “knock out game”? It’s still a thing over at FOX, incidentally a major reason I will never ever watch Megan Kelly. Today virgin Ben had a whiny column about how it’s not Twitler who’s destroying the media with all his talk about fake news, it was Obama who broke it. How you ask, well by so enthralling them that they refuse to cover his very real scandals, Louis Learner and the IRS, the Fast and the Furious gunwalking scandal, by pretending those scandals never happened they destroyed their own credibility so now on one takes the Twitler so called scandals seriously.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
I think you misspelled DOA.
hovercraft
@Mnemosyne:
We’re home alone, no adult supervision, time to trash the joint!
Mnemosyne
@Cowgirl in the Sandi:
I was born and raised in Lake County. Everything is downstate to me. ?
I’m not saying there are no liberals downstate, because IL wouldn’t have a Democratic majority in the legislature if there weren’t. But I am assuming that a white guy in his mid-60s who lives in Belleville is probably not a liberal, even if he does complain about Wall Street.
I’m also assuming he voted for Obama at least three times (US Senator + President). He seems to have been right-leaning/libertarian, not stupid.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Come again?
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@TenguPhule: I’ll take being accused of being “partisan” to just sitting back and being lied about. I condemn this shooter but I won’t let them off the hook for their violent rhetoric. They’re the ones who actually own this shit, not us. No elected Ds to my wits have ever advocated violence. Accusing Trump of treason does not = advocating murder
liberal
@Mnemosyne: Depends on what “tax reform” means.
One urgently-needed tax reform: abolish the privileged status of capital gains and tax it just like ordinary income.
TenguPhule
@hovercraft: Now you know why I’ve taken up drinking.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@hovercraft: Polls about public trust in the media vs Trump indicate otherwise, Ben.
It’s Shapiro I take it?
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: where are you getting right-leaning/libertarian from? Seriously asking. All the stuff I’ve read is bog-standard left.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: The problem is that either way you get the whole LBJ “pigfucker” problem. Its a fatal flaw in our current media environment. It worked to great effect with Comey and Sessions, but its a weapon that is sharp on both edges.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
And yet it’s the excuse they’re using. I guess none of them want to have to take off their baseball caps and expose their bald spots in order to protect their hearing.
liberal
@Mnemosyne: I’m “anti-corporate” in some sense. OTOH, I also understand that the small business-owning class is typically as far right as any other, certainly further than the people who run big corporations.
liberal
@Mnemosyne: Anything to increase the profits of the guns and ammo manufacturers.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
It’s the anti-bank stuff. And, yes, I’ve heard libertarians in AZ and other places complain that our tax code favors the rich and screws them. It’s not the exclusive domain of the left.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: But they’d still have to use the ear muffs, the silencer would make it sound less like a gunshot but the noise level would still be potentially dangerous to hearing.
It doesn’t work like in the movies.
Aleta
London fire
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: you’re assuming he’s a libertarian because his expressed standard-leftist views (bring income taxes back to Eisenhower levels, single-payer, Bush/Cheney are war criminals) overlap with some libertarian views (doesn’t like big banks)?
germy
rawstory
schrodingers_cat
Is it me or is anyone else getting tired of the pantswetting contest every thread seems to degenerate into these days? We are all going to die, Democrats are going to surrender. WASF and on and on.
Chris
@liberal:
All the elitism of the people running big corporations, combined with bitter resentment that they aren’t at the level of the people running big corporations.
liberal
@schrodingers_cat: Actually, we are all going to die.
Barbara
@schrodingers_cat: Yes. That’s when I usually tune out and wait for the next thread.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat:
Mind how you go.
Major Major Major Major
@liberal: speak for yourself, I’m going to be a robot.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@TenguPhule: That’s why you don’t just deny their bs accusations. You forcefully accuse and prove that they’re the ones who are responsible. GOP pols made it possible for this guy to get access to dangerous weapons. If we had proper controls in this nation, what happened to Scalise and others would never have happened.
The mainstream left has never advocated political violence and never will, unless Republicans go the full Reich.
schrodingers_cat
@liberal: Indeed, obsessing about death is not going to change that fact.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat: I am getting a little tired of you wanting it both ways. You want us all to drop everything over your pet issues while scoffing at issues others feel are important. Was your post really necessary?
Barbara
@Aleta: I predict people heading for the exits after zealously checking their mobile and non-mobile devices for incriminating emails along the lines of those found in the Flint disaster, like, “I am not sure these people are worth going the extra mile for.”
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@germy: I can see some red state passing a Stand Your Ground law and using that as an excuse to waste Democratic legislators. They feared for their lives! The Demonrat was reaching for a pen!
liberal
@Chris: Small business people seem to often be far right in most places, in most times. I’d be interested in explanations. The only one I can think of is that small business is often relatively labor-intensive, or requires cheap labor, and left-wing policies lead to more expensive labor.
There’s also the “no one’s gonna be my boss!!1!” type of personality issue.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:
That would require a better media that can take a hint. “But her emails!” remember.
liberal
@Major Major Major Major: Like that dumb fuck Ray Kurzweil.
Chris
@schrodingers_cat:
Consider it a counterpoint to the “mainstream” forums of respectable opinion in which people who have perfectly justified fears for their lives and well-being personally, for that of millions of their fellow citizens, and for the continued survival of the democratic system are patronizingly and condescendingly patted on the head and assured that come now, it’s not so bad, you’re just imagining things.
TenguPhule
@germy: If the odds are kind to us, he will accidentally shoot himself at some point.
Barbara
@Mnemosyne: There are lots of people — not the majority, but many — who do not conform to stereotype. My parents, for instance, were way more liberal than their education or background would have predicted, and way more liberal than most of their siblings.
TenguPhule
@Chris: “But those green cards!”
Shalimar
@germy: Next week’s story:
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
I’m basing it on his hatred of Hillary Clinton and refusal to vote for her once Bernie lost the nomination.
D58826
@trollhattan: Actually they can, depending on the code. In 1991 the Meridian Bank building in Philly caught fire. It was a Sat. night and some oily rags in a janitors closet on the 22nd floor spontaneously combusted. The first problem was the standpipe pumps failed so the firemen on the 22nd floor had very little water to work with. The fire then spread upward to the 23 and then the 24th,. etc. Three firemen died when they were casught above the fire as they tried to ventilate the building. As the fire spread from floor to floor the firemen noticed that the curtain wall was beginning to separate, so fearing collapse, they were pulled off the fire line. The fire continue d to spead up the building from floor to floor until it hit the 29th, where it stopped. The magic – the 30th had sprinklers which kicked in and stopped the fire in its tracks. IF the buiulding had had spinkers on the 22nd tghe only thing would have been a ruined closet and some wet furniture. The building never did collapse but it was ultimately torn down. After much opposition from the real estate industry, the city modified it’s codes so that new building had to have sprinklers. I don’t remember if they required existing building to be retrofitted. At the end of the day, it would have cost less to install the sprinklers when the building was built than the insurance losses from the fire and the deaths of the firemen. But the builder/owner didn’t have to pay it was the insurance company. I wasn’t really surprised the the first tower fell on 9/11 because I remembered what happened in 1991.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
If the media, as a whole, still wants to carry their water, then they have be gone around. How, I don’t know. Social media is a start
rikyrah
How and when did he move to Virginia?
schrodingers_cat
@Chris: True. But every single thread seems to go the same way these days.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:
Welcome to my world!
D58826
@Barbara: As the family liberal my sister wonders why I went ‘over to the dark side’. Base on fb postings some of my cousins would be much happier in the 9th century.
Mnemosyne
@Barbara:
See my reply at #393 — it’s the guy’s intense Hillary hatred that’s making me throw him out of the “liberal” club.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat: That sort of thing tends to happen when bad people endanger the lives and wellbeing of other people and look to be able to continue to do so.
ruckus
@D58826:
The word revolutionary has context in most political systems. It certainly does in this country, founded by violent revolution. That the vast majority of citizens might not take it that way does not mean that a politician should feel free to use the words without precaution, given our ability to place even very limited gun control laws in our laws. IOW, BS does have some level of responsibility here. He for sure would not be alone, or even at a high level of responsibility but he can not be blameless.
Chris
@schrodingers_cat:
What Tengu said at 401.
Laura
@Mnemosyne: Congratulations on being there to hit the TBogg Unit Mnemosyne!
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@ruckus: No Sanders defender, but that’s stretching. I think Sanders made it perfectly clear that it was a political revolution meant to work within the bounds of the democratic system
Calouste
@Aleta: As housing for the poor in what is probably the richest borough in the UK that has been run by the Tories for more than 50 years, it got the attention you would expect, i.e. not much.
I’m pretty sure British journalists have already started looking into connections between Kensington & Chelsea council, KCTMO, and the contractor who did the renovation on Grenfell tower.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@Laura: TBogg is 500 comments. But only 100 off ?
TenguPhule
@Laura: Tboggs are 500.
Mnemosyne
@Laura:
Good thing my boss is on vacation this week! ?
Major Major Major Major
@ruckus: @? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: Agree with Goku. Why, he even made sure to prepend the word ‘revolution’ with ‘political’ half the time.
Seriously, though, no new post? Yikes.
Mnemosyne
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:
D’oh! Don’t feel bad, Laura, I always get confused about TBogg units, too.
D58826
@ruckus: Oh I agree on the violent aspect of the word, but anyone listening to Bernie would not reach a conclusion that he was talking about a violent revolution. You could argue that there was a revolution in civil rights in the 1960’s and it was mostly peaceful. It is the gun humping miltias that seem to yearn for the bloody formulation.
TenguPhule
@D58826:
Point of order!
It was anything but peaceful.
The Civil Rights movement relied mainly on non-violent methods.
Their opposition on the other hand…..
Mnemosyne
@D58826:
I would say that any normal person listening to Bernie would know he was talking about a peaceful, political revolution, but I think we’re discussing abnormal people by definition here. A well-adjusted person doesn’t try to shoot a group of legislators at their baseball practice.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
Very, very tired. I think some regulars have decamped because of it.
Speaking of which, what ever happened to BGinChi?
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
For now.
AHCA becomes law of the land and all bets are off.
Mnemosyne
@zhena gogolia:
We can all escape to SC’s blog this weekend and talk about Some Like It Hot. ? I’m hoping to get my essay written this week and post it Friday night or Saturday morning.
Major Major Major Major
@zhena gogolia: Hell, even I’m getting sick of it.
The Moar You Know
@Mnemosyne: And to be clear, that reason is bullshit on steroids. Dropping a gunshot from 170db to 120db still places it square in “instant hearing damage” territory. What a silencer does is changes what a gunshot sounds like and where the ear perceives it is coming from. Why you would want to do that I leave as an exercise for the reader.
Chris
@liberal:
There was a thread here from a few years back in which a commenter went off on a long, but not exactly wrong, righteous rant about right-wing small business owners and what was wrong with them. (It’s three comments right after each other – the second and third especially about SBEs).
Haroldo
What is Mr. Boggioni up to these days? (Outside of being a unit of measurement – which is no mean feat to be sure.)
D58826
@TenguPhule: I think we splitting hairs on the word peaceful vs non-violent, but I agree non-violent would be a better description. Outside of the Black Panthers and one or two other groups you did not see civil rights marches lead by people in camo gear and armed to the teeth with ar15s.
And yes the state did use violence to try and shut down the movement in places like Selma but it certainly wasn’t a replay of 1776 or the French revolution. The civil rights marchers were not looking to 2nd amendment solutions. They had their eye firmly set on the protections of the first amendment
Yoda Dog
@ruckus: I don’t know about that. I can’t stand the guy at this point, but I can’t hold him to the coals for this. Countless times, I have heard the guy insist and clarify he means an exclusively democratic, non-violent revolution.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: I will probably join them soon, I think.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne: Well…
TenguPhule
@D58826: We had a better government back then. Warts and all. Now, its just warts on top of warts.
Barbara
@Yoda Dog: Bernie Sanders has never said anything like what Rand Paul tweeted about the Second Amendment existing for the purpose of shooting government representatives. He is so unself-aware that he doesn’t even consider that the obvious rejoinder is, “you mean, like you?”
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@schrodingers_cat: Don’t sweat some who always engage in doom and gloom. It’s part of human nature, in dark times, to get like that. BJ is still a place worth having discussions
bupalos
@TenguPhule: All you clowns that talk about violence all the time, wise up. If you want to be that, you should find different causes to support. There are very very basic reasons why you can’t shoot and punch and fight your way to liberal results, very basic reasons why the other side is rational to root for the violence and flood the country with guns and fear. Basic reasons why every time someone is picking up a gun on their side or (ostensibly) on our side, the retrograde politics of hate (current address, Republican Party USA) wins.
Laura
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: @TenguPhule:
How is it possible that I did not get the Memo!?!
Anywhoos, it looks like this thread persists, and 500 is just a shout away.
D58826
@TenguPhule: An entry on twitter from an NPR report that she has never seen Congress folks so upset. They breakdown in tears to even talk about it.
But being the brave representatives of democracy that the are, they will collect themselves and go back to the difficult task of kicking 24 million people off of their medical plan. Presumably they will do this in secret because they don’t want the public to see their lack of tears.
jeannedalbret
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Yes, that is sad.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
Sorry, but fuck Peter Beinart and his “both sides do it” bullshit:
He admits in the following paragraph that she was factually correct, but she shouldn’t have said it because Both Sides!
Quinerly
@rikyrah:
A pretty good background piece: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/us/politics/virginia-shooting-suspect-james-hodgkinson.html?referer=
Major Major Major Major
@D58826:
Even after Giffords, who had a considerably worse injury? Or was she not on the beat? Or do only Republican feelings count?
D58826
also on twitter – fbi is saying it is not an assassination attempt and dismissed the account that the shooter asked about party identity. Which still doesn’t mean that it wasn’t aimed at the GOP specifically. IF he scoped out the activities of the congressmen practicing for the ball game and recognized a few faces he might well have known that they were the GOP w/o asking.
Quinerly
@rikyrah:
Another background piece on the shooter if you haven’t seen: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/2017/live-updates/public-safety/updates-shooting-at-congressional-baseball-practice-in-virginia/gunman-was-living-out-of-the-gym-bag-former-alexandria-mayor-says/?utm_term=.2eef85977185
debit
@TenguPhule: Was it really necessary to descend to a personal attack? That was pretty shitty of you. I mean, since we’re being all personal about stuff.
TenguPhule
@bupalos: When millions lose essential healthcare, inevitably the law of averages suggests that at least one of them is not going to react in a calm reasonable manner to being condemned to a slow agonizing death.
It’s not a fantasy, its a bloody prediction..
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
I think this is the correct guess.
Haroldo
@Major Major Major Major: Possibly a combination of Republican exceptionalism coupled with the shooting being very close to home.
The Moar You Know
@liberal: I can tell you why. They get the short end of the stick every time from the government.
For all the talk we have about the US being small-business friendly, it really isn’t. For starters, there’s the double-dip on taxes that the business owner faces: first, he’s gotta pay corporate income tax, and then he’s got to pay personal income tax on his earnings. Fine if you’re employing a thousand people. Lot less fine if it’s just you, or you and a helper. And then there’s the reporting and regulatory stuff, which is frankly more than one human being can deal with and at least once a year is going to have you calling a lawyer – not because you did something wrong, but because they’re the only people who can guide you to a correct course of action. And you have to do all of it at least twice – once for the Feds and once for the state. Here we have to do it three times: Feds, State, city.
You’re already seeing how this goes bad real quick. The rage is building.
So you do all that, beat the one-year odds (about 80% fail first year out) and then you’re making enough to feed the family and then the psycho employee or client you fired two years ago hits you with a lawsuit. Courts are plaintiff friendly. The ex-employee has Legal Aid covering his bills and you don’t.
At this point you’re Googling “sovereign citizen law” and thinking those Bundy guys maybe weren’t on the wrong track. The Republicans are talking their usual line of shit about cutting lawsuits, regulations and taxes and that, to you at this point, is a no-brainer. You’re on board. Dems talk about looking out for employees and paying them more and taxing businesses more. What the fuck? They don’t care about you at all!
No one has ever explained or told you that big businesses are the ones that get all the breaks, and you get none because that’s how they fund those tax breaks, and if you hear that Apple or GE didn’t pay any taxes last year, you’re thinking “thank God at least somebody’s figured out a way to fuck these assholes over”.
With all that, seriously, how are you going to vote? They way they all, in fact, vote.
The US is small-business friendly in only one real way: we give people credit after bankruptcies. Most other countries won’t.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TenguPhule:
They’re in Simi Valley, so it’s pretty much the same.
Chris
@Major Major Major Major:
The opinion a somewhat dickish version of myself would take away from that is that when Giffords was shot, the Democrats were horrified, while Republicans just shrugged or sniggered or equivocated. Whereas with this attack, the Democrats are still horrified, because it happened to a person, and the Republicans are horrified, because it happened to them.
I am, of course, not that dickish person. No indeed.
TenguPhule
@debit: The only difference between my post and hers was I was using a rifle, she was using a shotgun.
TenguPhule
@?BillinGlendaleCA: I’d rather not wait the 50 years it takes for the sea to catch up.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne: No, what’s he’s saying is that violent rhetoric will set people off, no matter where it comes from, and that includes Bernie’s ‘revolution’. It also means that when you’re in a country with >1 firearm per person, that the person who responds to that violent rhetoric is likely to be able to take action.
We have a bad mix of inflamed rhetoric and means for violence.
And Clinton shouldn’t have said it. There are lots of things that we can say that are accurate that don’t need to be said because it’s not productive to say them. I could walk down the street and call out every overweight person I see. Accurate, but not productive. Granted, Clinton’s statements pale in comparison to what was said not just by Trump but by countless others in Trumps circle and those certainly deserve a stronger condemnation, but it doesn’t absolve Clinton.
D58826
@Major Major Major Major: Not sure where she was with Gifford. And since the shooting was in AZ the focus of the story was there not Washington. And she did get a long standing ovation from everyone in the Chamber when she returned. Unfortunately given events of the past few years, the comments made by some of the GOP today, and JR’;s comments, your
TenguPhule
@Chris:
We don’t judge dicks here.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
How is “basket of deplorables” violent rhetoric? Please explain in detail what is violent about it.
Chris
@TenguPhule:
Not that I would have anything to be ashamed of if we did.
tobie
@Mnemosyne: What’s so annoying about this is that so many folks pretend that no other Democratic politician ever made a gaffe. Obama’s comment about folks clinging to guns and God is forgotten; Howard Dean’s statement, “I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pick up trucks,” or Bernie’s about about African-American youth having no hope and hanging around street corners are ignored, if not dismissed as inconsequential and taken out of context. Only HRC’s one inartful phrase in a campaign otherwise astonishingly free of gaffes is repeated ad nauseum. Don’t people like Beinart, Jeet Heer, etc see their double standard?
EDIT: Sorry, meant to add I don’t see how ‘basket of deplorables’ is an incitement to violence.
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
Let me just call bullshit on some of those points.
1) If you incorporate, odds are you are paying little or no state and federal income tax from the business because you report expenses that equal or exceed your revenue. And federal tax laws let you report a lot of things as business expenses.
2) Regulations are there for a reason. Most of them have to do with worker safety & product safety. When business owners cut corners here, people inevitably get hurt.
3) Complaining that you need a lawyer to handle 1 & 2 smacks of the smallest violin in the world.
Quinerly
@Mnemosyne:
I live in St. Louis. Belleville is considered a suburb. St. Clair County is considered a Democratic county. Judges are mostly Dem…Not a hotbed of Paulites. A lot of union folks.
sharl
@Mnemosyne: I followed* a LOT of hard left (e.g., socialist) shouty Millennials during the election campaigns, and their attitude about Hillary – or to state it more precisely, the type of politics they felt she represented – DID approach hatred, or at least unreserved contempt. They would agree with you that they shouldn’t be called liberals, a term they associate with a political/economic class of people Barbara Ehrenreich (the Nickled-&-Dimed author) has called the professional-managerial class – Hillary people, by and large. (I’m likely a member of that class, to be honest about it.)
This is the problem with a simplistic binary political view (e.g., right-vs-left): it overlooks so much key context, much of it based on economic considerations (military interventionism was also a big thing among a smaller subset of the Youngs). In the case of these young lefties, they already dismissed Trump, based on his well documented long history of lying and generally shitty behavior. A lot of them swallowed hard and with no small measure of regret voted for Hillary in November, knowing the likely consequences of a Trump win. But they stayed mad about stuff like her well compensated and long-undisclosed Goldman-Sachs speeches. On this score they agreed with a lot of right-wingers, but on fundamental issues they disagreed with the wingers on just about everything else. Very rarely did they move to Trump after Sanders dropped out, and of those rare birds who did, at least one kinda-sorta prominent Berner-to-Trump convert turned out to be more of a ditzy self-promoter than someone with any discernible core beliefs (yeah, Cassandra, lookin’ at you; I had your number back in the Occupy days). Those Youngs who didn’t vote for Hillary either left the box on the ballot for President unchecked in the general, or voted for the flaky Jill Stein.
I don’t believe in assigning collective guilt to entire generations, but if I did want to assign generational blame for the existence of a President Trump, I would point the finger at my fellow Boomers rather than at Millennials, who provided a huge number of votes for Hillary.
To return to the point – not that it matters much (though right-wingers will assert otherwise) – I could totally accept that the Alexandria killer was a leftie AND a Hillary hater. They exist. Making the bullshit case for a causal relationship between his politics and his violence will, unfortunately, become a major mission of various right-wing media types. And based on their past behavior, I’m not optimistic that “respectable” media types won’t propagate that crap.
*they were often also very funny, which was my main reason for following them.
D58826
@? Martin: I take your point but in a political campaign there are so many things that are said which could set off some one who is a few ants short of a picnic. The D’s include pro-choice language in the platform and some ultra-fundie is going to get set off and shot up a planned parenthood. Oh wait that has already happened repeatedly. So it really is going to be hard to have any kind of political discussion with out pushing somebody’s button.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: At some point in history the French once used them for something other then bread.
Mnemosyne
@tobie:
Here’s the actual “basket of deplorables” quote:
What, exactly, is “violent” about it? I honestly want to know.
TenguPhule
@tobie:
Of course not. Their jobs inevitably depend on that.
Major Major Major Major
@Chris: Very good point.
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: HRC said it. End of story. We have unfair standards for women and other minorities.
Mnemosyne
@sharl:
Right, but the guy in Alexandria wasn’t a Millennial. He was a Boomer — 66 years old. And white male Boomers lean to the right.
Quinerly
@Mnemosyne:
You are simply wrong about your generalizations about Belleville (St. Clair County)
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:
Discussions is 3 doors down to the left. This is Heated Arguments.
El Caganer
@D58826: Yeah, I’m tuning in to cable tonight just to catch Paul Ryan doing his cover of My Heart Will Go On.
Frankensteinbeck
@TenguPhule:
If Democrats voted for it in the Senate, they will in the House. If Republicans voted for it in the Senate, a big chunk will in the House. If Ryan brings it up for a vote, it will pass.
Of course, that describes a LOT of legislation, which is why Boehner brought in his new ‘only legislation that doesn’t need Democratic votes’ policy, and Ryan continues it.
TenguPhule
@El Caganer:
Thank you so much for that image. I’m going to have to go +3 tonight.
tobie
@Mnemosyne: I agree with you. I don’t see the statement as justifying violence in any way.
TenguPhule
@Frankensteinbeck:
That assumes 1) The FC doesn’t shoot it down because it doesn’t piss off liberals and 2)Ryan gives a shit about anything other then tax cuts
I think at least one of those assumptions is wrong.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne: Deplorable: disgraceful, shameful, dishonorable, unworthy, inexcusable, unpardonable, unforgivable. “they are irredeemable”
You are declaring these people outside of societal norms and dehumanizing them. It’s parallel to the strategy used by white supremacists to dehumanize blacks such that they didn’t have to call for violence against them, society would simply tolerate that violence when it happened. They are beyond redemption – all we can hope to do is somehow remove them from society.
Granted, it has a different effect when used against the majority, but simply put we should not dehumanize others – ever. That’s always used as a way to lower moral friction in order to spur violence to take place. It is not violence, but it is a necessary element to achieving violence, particularly when it comes from a position of authority (which both Clinton and Trump had).
Mnemosyne
@Quinerly:
How many 66-year-old white men in Belleville are liberal Democrats who also virulently hate Hillary Clinton?
I mean, I guess this guy could just happen to be that one rare bird, but it seems demographically unlikely.
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: There are plenty of supporters of the Senator from Vt who are older than 60.
TenguPhule
@? Martin:
If we can’t dehumanize Nazis, then we really are in trouble.
Steve in the ATL
@The Moar You Know:
Gonna have to disagree with you on these points!
sharl
@Mnemosyne: See that’s the same kind of generalization about age I don’t like, any more than I like the generalization about where people live as an explanation for how they are. That stuff is useful for pollsters and political strategists working with large groups of people. But when explaining the beliefs of individuals, it so often comes up short.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
You are seriously defining deviancy down. So any criticism of white supremacists, misogynists, and Islamophobes is now “violent rhetoric” that needs to be deplored? Saying that white supremacists have no place in a decent society is eliminationist and we need to welcome them with open arms? WTF?
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@? Martin: That’s not dehumanizing. That’s shaming and calling out. They can change their beliefs and behaviors. You can’t (without extensive surgery) change your skin color or gender
Mnemosyne
@sharl:
As I’ve said several times, it’s entirely possible that this guy is a lifelong liberal Democrat who just happens to also be a misogynist. It happens. I’m just saying that it’s unlikely.
The Moar You Know
@TenguPhule: You’re wrong about #1, or at least you will be after your first audit. Which you will have very quickly if you report more than one year of losses. The IRS has no patience for failure even if legit.
I know the mindset is bullshit. My point is, it’s not bullshit to them. And the GOP’s message is literally tailor-made for these folks. Pair it with the kind of hopeless incompetence that leads most people to leave steady work and “start their own business”, and it becomes completely logical.
? Martin
@schrodingers_cat: No, it’s not unfair. Had Tim Kaine said it it’d be just as bad. And mind you, nowhere am I saying that it’s remotely as bad as what Trump said, and nowhere am I saying that she deserved anything bad for momentarily stepping over the line in a situation that was truly getting out of hand from the right.
Put another way, does anyone think Clinton would have said that if not for the Trump campaign making such horrible calls for violence? If not, why do you think she said it? If you think it was a ‘response’ then you’re supporting my point – that people will respond in the manner in which they feel empowered to do so, that even the best person can be pushed to a point that causes them to leave their moral boundaries, even temporarily and regrettably.
Some of you seem to be thinking that I’m attacking Clinton here, but I’m actually trying to say that this person, this near-model example of restraint and measured speech who could be relied on to express compassion and dignity for people that usually aren’t granted it, could still be pushed in this way. That there are more than enough people in this world that only need to be called ‘deplorable’ once before they are ready to reach for their gun.
Quinerly
@Mnemosyne:
I don’t know. I just know your generalizations about Belleville, Illinois are incorrect. But you seem to be dug into a narrative starting back 200 comments ago. So Please proceed.
The Moar You Know
@Frankensteinbeck: Wasn’t Boehner. It was the child molester, Hastert. Was called the “Hastert Rule” until recently, must be some kind of weird backstory as to why it isn’t anymore.
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
Sorry, that’s a bullshit talking point. IRS and state governments are understaffed and overwhelmed. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning then being audited.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TenguPhule: They’re high on a hill, so that’s not an issue. Simi Valley really sucks was the point.
? Martin
@TenguPhule: Half of Trumps supporters were not nazis.
@? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:
Clinton was saying that they can’t:
That’s why I don’t call people ‘evil’. Evil ends the debate. There’s no coming back from evil. Evil is fundamentally, foundationally malicious. Once something is declared evil, there’s no point discussing it, all you can hope to do is snuff it out. Irredeemable is the same way – beyond redemption. Unfixable. Lock them up and throw away the key. Stick them in GITMO forever. Put a bullet in them.
It doesn’t matter if Clinton actually believes that or not, nor does it matter if it’s true or not. Maybe they are in fact beyond redemption. What’s the benefit of saying it? Does it help those people behave better, or worse? Given how quickly they embraced the title, I think we have to go with worse. That should be our first big clue that it was wrong to say it.
Emma
@? Martin: They dehumanize us.They kill us, and instead of murderers they get called “troubled.” They get bail and sympathy while black kids are mowed down to their applause. They are openly racist, Islamophobic, and misogynist. I do not want to embrace them. I will call them evil if they deserve it.
Sometimes it is possible to have such an open mind that your brains dribble out.
Major Major Major Major
@tobie:
It’s possible that they would be bigger deals if they’d been a) made during general elections, not primaries, and b) by somebody who went on to lose the general.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
Where people are disagreeing with you is in your (and Beinart’s) claim that saying that white supremacists have no place in a decent society is somehow morally wrong, and that Hillary was somehow driven to say something “morally wrong” by the right’s rhetoric.
? Martin
@The Moar You Know:
That’s not true. I’ve reported more than one year of losses. Per the IRS regs:
Nice to see the carve out for horse racing – critical infrastructure that it is. You can take losses, you just can’t take a pattern of losses. And in my experience with others, the IRS doesn’t generally pluck out individual small businesses for audits, rather they pick out tax preparers who have clients that show a similar pattern. Small business owners are generally not clever enough at tax law to be able to successfully cheat the IRS, so they typically hire someone who is, who is usually helping a bunch of other small businesses cheat the IRS. That’s who they’re after, and of course they’ll take a look at you for why you chose that individual.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
We are discussing white supremacism. If we are not allowed to say that white supremacism is evil and the belief system needs to be snuffed out, then why even pretend to have a moral society?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@The Moar You Know: If you’re a small business paying any corporate income taxes, you need to hire a new accountant.
different-church-lady
@liberal: That remains to be seen.
different-church-lady
So, once again it’s the hippies vs. the pragmatists, slugging it out on the same side.
Yutsano
C’mon Tbogg!!!
Steve in the ATL
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
QFT. And I say that as someone who just learned that the CPA he used at his old law practice in Atlanta is currently sitting in a Brazilian prison.
Mnemosyne
@Yutsano:
Yay?
Mnemosyne
@Yutsano:
Yay now?
ETA: Yay! TBogg unit!
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: @Mnemosyne: Oh, come on, that’s cheating.
Laura
@Mnemosyne: TBogg!?!
Asking for a friend . .
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: BOOM!!
Right before my next case.
Me happy now.
amk
@? Martin: Hillary had the guts to tell it as it is. Unlike the lying pos from the other side. It’s debatable that she lost because of it knowing what happened during the elections.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Yutsy couldn’t wait for it to happen naturally. And I should probably do some actual work today, too.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Laura: 500 comments == 1 TBogg unit.
? Martin
@Emma:
I’m not suggesting they get bail or sympathy. But if the recipe in response to bad acts on the right is to try and match them with bad acts on the left, then we’re all pretty fucked.
I’m not looking to give them sympathy, but if you tell them they are beyond hope, why should they even try to not be a horrible person? I’m sorry, but I don’t believe people are disposable. That approach has been all too effective against blacks, Jews, indigenous peoples, gays, the disabled, and so on. The solution isn’t to apply that approach equally to everyone, it’s to stop applying it to anyone.
scav
@Emma: Well, apparently, if enough White Christian Conservative Males believe it, it automatically has a place at the table of reasonable, to be considered acceptably normal, social behavior. Mustn’t further make them uncomfortable by implying they are more than a standard deviation from ideal — bad enough that they no longer personify by definition the ideal norm.
GOVCHRIS1988
@? Martin:
Oh fuck that silly ass shit. I’m sorry, if I call a muthafucka deplorable, and he or she reaches for that gun and shoots me dead, how the fuck was that person a “good person”? Oh, he was ok,a nice fellow, but my words hurt him so much, he wanted to kill me. Fuck that. I’m gonna tell the truth because all we have is truth. Truth isn’t kind, isn’t nice, and doesn’t mince words. And you can either deal with it or be fucked up about it, but I’m not gonna change just because some asshole with a stick up his ass can’t take my truth. I’d rather die than goddamn hold my tongue because some asshole that thinks he’s “good” is gonna snap when I tell the truth about him.
Mnemosyne
@amk:
A playlet:
WHITE SUPREMACISTS: “Black and brown people are inferior and should be wiped out. Jews, too.”
LIBERALS: “That’s horrible! People who say things like that shouldn’t have a place in decent society.”
PETER BEINART: “See? Both sides rely on eliminationist rhetoric!”
And … scene.
Kathleen
@Sab: This. I agree. While I have no sympathy for Scalise or any of the other traumatized Rethugs, nothing but bad outcomes result from violence regardless of who the target is. The first is being subject to media blathering about “both sides” being violent and denying that Rethuglicans are a crime syndicate comprised of bullies who constantly threatened the Obamas and who actively threaten and harm African Americans, Muslims, etc on an ongoing basis.. The second is blowlback from the Thugs and their minions in the form of repression and more harrassment. There is no positive outcome.
ETA: Like you, I remember the 60’s all too well.
john fremont
@StringOnAStick: Voice mail, that’s exactly what happened to me as well. I never talk to Gardner’s staff.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
Except that you’re equating bad acts on the right with mild criticism from the left.
Still waiting for you to explain why white supremacists should have a voice in how we run our society.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne:
I’m not talking about ideas, I’m talking about people. Clinton didn’t say that white supremacism was deplorable, she said that half of Trump voters were deplorable and that some were irredeemable. Of course ideas can be labeled as such – ideas don’t have free will, ideas don’t have consciences or loved ones. But once you extend that to a person, even a person that supports that idea, then you’ve lost all hope of ever getting them off of that idea – and that should be seen as a failure. The goal should be to end support for the idea, not galvanize them to it so that you have a convenient enemy to fight.
That’s another necessary component of political violence – always having some existential threat that is deserving of militarization. Are you trying to put an end to white supremacy, even though it might result in Democrats losing their near-monopoly of minority voters – or are you trying to institutionalize it in a way to better differentiate your ideology to keep them on board? Binding people to a label can cut both ways – sometimes it’s calling out and shaming, and sometimes it’s giving them an identity and a community to attach to. How you do it is what matters, and this was the wrong way to do it. They took it as a badge of pride, not of shame. It made things worse, not better.
D58826
Mark Giffurds was discussing security for the congress.
I don’t really want to be hard hearted but since so many of the members (and at the state level) have voted for legislation that has allowed the country to be flooded with guns then they should face the same risks as the rest of us. If John Q. Citizen has been turned into a sitting duck by these people then they should be sitting ducks also. What is good for the goose and all of that. Fla. for example just passed an amendment to it’s stand your ground law that would require the prosecutor to prove the state of mind of the shooter. IN other words they have to be a mind-reader.
And with all of the tears in DC, not a word about the three dead in SF. I guess they didn’t merit a security detail.
Kathleen
@catclub: I prefer this: “We are against being perceived as White Supremacists and in our hearts of hearts we want to bring back slavery.”
sharl
@Laura: While I’m not 100% certain, I think the origins of the TBogg Unit (= 500 comments) might be found in comment #4 in this old post (GG = Glenn Greenwald).
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
Yes, but it wasn’t Hillary’s comments that made things worse. It was the fact that they were empowered by Trump and the media stumbling over themselves to defend white supremacists and the other “deplorables” as not so bad, after all.
You can’t shame people who have societal support to keep acting badly, and our entire society is set up to make excuses for white supremacists who say and do bad things.
Hillary’s only mistake was in thinking that our society was capable of saying that white supremacy is bad and white supremacists are bad people. We aren’t. We still valorize and excuse white supremacy and white supremacists, which is why Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III is still our Attorney General.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne:
This is what I responded to from Emma: “They get bail and sympathy while black kids are mowed down to their applause”
This isn’t a call for black kids to be treated better, but for ‘them’ to be treated worse. Apparently we need less bail and less sympathy? I thought we did this whole mass incarceration exercise and determined that less bail and less sympathy produced worse outcomes.
Because like it or not they are voters and should have the same right to vote as everyone else. I thought the Democrats were in favor of removing barriers to vote, or does that only apply if you agree to vote for Democrats? Our job is to show that society is better if we don’t listen to those voices, not to adopt their tactics in response.
Kathleen
@quakerinabasement: Violence has been normalized in this country since its inception. Particularly if you are/were African American and Native American, or members of other targeted groups (Jews, Japanese, Irish, Italian, etc.). Note, I do not believe physical violence like we saw today is ever a good solution.
ruckus
@D58826:
And the others answering my comment.
I think I was pretty clear that most people would not take BS as asking for a revolution, especially a violent one. But it only takes one moron with access to guns and ammo these days to create havoc and death. Any politician SHOULD take a very close look at anything they say that could be taken out of context. Revolution is a very strong word for a segment of the population. Of any population. Not doing this risks responsibility.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne:
Why do you think it has to be an either/or? Of course Trump was empowering them, but Clinton gave them the thing they most wanted – a label from the enemy. Millions of people changed their twitter handles to include ‘deplorable’ as a badge of honor. You’re arguing that was helpful? Please, make the case to us how that helped matters.
Then why did Clinton try to shame them!
Absolutely. And just as the confederate flag is a signal to the community where a person stands, so is the label of ‘deplorable’ now. They took the ‘attack on one of us is an attack on all’ and rallied around the cause, and worse, Trump looks at that as a big part of why he won. White supremacy is what worked, and now he’s going to deliver on it. That’s not making things better. They didn’t need that shot of encouragement from Clinton.
Kathleen
@TenguPhule: They’re already fearful, hateful Fascists.
? Martin
@ruckus: Agreed 100%.
D58826
It is surprising the President (and I changed from my usual Der Fuhrer because he behaved like one) had a very measured reaction to the events in VA today.
I suspect that by this time tomorrow Der Fuhrer will be back. WAPO is reporting that Mueller has expanded his investigation to determine whether Trump has obstructed justice. That kind of answers the elephant question in the congressional hearing rooms for the past two weeks. Yes Der Fuhrer is now under investigation.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
They don’t have the same right to vote as everyone else — they have MORE voting rights than anyone else. Ask some Black voters in Wisconsin or North Carolina or Ohio or Michigan who has more of a right to vote: them, or white supremacists?
You’re equating a theoretical removal of rights to an actual, ongoing removal of rights. The question isn’t why do you want to prevent white supremacists from voting? It’s why are you okay with ignoring the fact that Black Americans are being prevented from voting while decrying theoretical discrimination against white supremacists?
Pointing that whites and blacks in this country are being treated unequally isn’t a call for whites to be treated just as unequally. It’s pointing out that, right now, this very minute, in the year 2017, White Americans and Black Americans are being treated unequally.
And if pointing that fact out by making a comparison counts as “violent rhetoric,” then we will never, ever move forward.
Kathleen
@hovercraft: Amen! Righteous Rant!
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
Really? We’re not even supposed to try to shame white supremacists anymore? Really?
Do you even realize the moral rabbit hole you’ve run down here? You are saying that we need to consider the tender feelings of white supremacists while our fellow Americans are being shot in the streets because they’re not white.
? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?
@? Martin: Those people still have agency though. They can choose not to be horrible people. If they weren’t deplorable, then they shouldn’t have self-identified as such.
Kathleen
@Timurid: White Republicans.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
So, by this stance, we should stop demanding that Confederate flags be removed from government property because it’s just going to unite the white supremacists and make them feel bad, yes?
If they unite because there’s a flag there and also unite when the flag is removed, it ain’t the flag that’s the problem, and leaving it in place won’t solve anything.
Kathleen
@Mnemosyne: Republican politicians. White.
Applejinx
Huh, happy TBogg.
The problem with ‘deplorables’ was never that it was untrue. Racism and sexism and islamophobia and all that, suck, full stop.
A problem with it was, it seemed like Clinton was making a case that the ONLY reason anyone could oppose her was that they were ‘deplorable’ and pretty much all of the above. And ever after, Democrats in power have been making that case: oppose us, and it can only be because you are the basket of deplorables, and there are no other things in the world anybody would think about.
You don’t have to justify the things in that basket to see a problem (but it makes it way more difficult to talk about remaining problems).
I’m glad my Vermont senator put out a good statement: you know, the funny thing is he’s always been dead set against corporations and privatizing everything and has had a very socilist agenda on some things. And just lately, a tower block in London burned down with horrific loss of life, because cladding around the outside had been added to pretty it up for the benefit of rich neighbors:
…and this politically inspired shooter, according to what accounts I’ve seen, was living out of a gym bag (we call that ‘homeless’) while using the YMCA to shower etc. after his small business collapsed.
I’d like to know how many thousands more people have to die before we acknowledge we have an economically based crisis AND ‘deplorables’. And just as Balloon Juice has said, ‘deplorables’ tend to be more economically secure. ‘deplorables’ are doing things like having a tower block of poor people put up flammable cladding because their building looks sooooo tacky. I’m not defending ‘deplorables’, I’m trying to highlight an alternate perspective on all this that might save lives. If only Euille, the black Democrat former mayor, had been able to get this white homeless gunman some kind of services and social support, the guy might have not turned murderer and then corpse.
Other lives could be saved by acknowledging we’re looking at a crisis. The Republicans aren’t going to do that, they’re doing the opposite.
drdavechemist
@TenguPhule: Just because it’s bullshit doesn’t mean they don’t believe it. My in-laws are strong Republican supporters even though my FIL is all over recycling and energy conservation because they hate that their small business (before they sold it) had to comply with all those democratic regulations and because they figured that anyone could be as successful as they were if they worked hard enough. We can’t talk politics with them because they seem to think that insurance is socialism. I would like to think that we could reason with them, but experience tells me otherwise.
Applejinx
A guy on r/chapotraphouse said this:
Yeah, that’s pretty much how I feel. It’s hard to feel very sorry for Republicans at this point, and if you want society not to disintegrate into this kind of violence, it’s necessary to get more money to desperate people of whatever ideology. I personally think Stein voters were dumb and not helping anything or anybody, but you STILL gotta feed ’em. When you’re about to die, all ideologies are the same.
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne: Did you prepare an acceptance speech for winning the thread?
Kathleen
@Chris: I can let my dickiss flag fly and I endorse your not message.
Mnemosyne
@Applejinx:
She made the comment in September of 2016, 6 weeks after the Democratic National Convention and well after the Democratic primary was over.
If the choice was between Hillary and Trump, and you still chose to oppose Hillary, then you chose to support every deplorable thing that Trump stood for. If you opposed Hillary and the Democrats in September of 2016, you actively supported white supremacy, homophobia, Islamophobia, misogyny, and everything else she called out in that speech.
So, yes, if you listened to Hillary call those things out by name in September of 2016 and decided to put yourself into that “basket of deplorables,” that means that you self-identified as a white supremacist, homophobe, xenophobe, and misogynist.
Full stop.
different-church-lady
@? Martin:
Still waiting for someone to explain to me how this is not true.
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
My spouse has been scolding me lately for wasting my best writing on long comment threads.
He may have a point. ?
different-church-lady
@sharl: You are correct, and don’t think I’m not damn proud.
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne: Your best writing is being wasted if it’s anywhere on the internet.
different-church-lady
@? Martin:
Which makes them what kind of person? Think here…. THINK….
different-church-lady
Before this thread I had no idea our biggest problem was being unable to find a nice, polite way of talking assholes out of being assholes.
CarolDuhart2
@Mnemosyne: This sort of thing aggravates the hatred by making it acceptable at large. Why are there Confederate monuments in places like public squares, anyway? Aren’t we now one country? No place else in the world would cater to this sort of thing by using public dollars. Public dollars that were used to tell the newly freed slaves that they weren’t really free-built on the reestablishment of Jim Crow.
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
Schrodinger’s Cat and I blog together sometimes. It’s not a large audience, but it’s better than a 500+ comment thread.
sharl
@different-church-lady:
As well you should be! You should in fact be immortalized along with Atrios for his introduction of the “Friedman Unit” (6_months).
different-church-lady
@? Martin:
AND IN DOING SO, THEY PROVED HER RIGHT. JESUS…
different-church-lady
@sharl: If that involves cryogenics, then forget it.
Shalimar
@? Martin: They took deplorables as a badge of honor because their definition of virtue has become “anything the liberals hate”. Nothing Clinton said was ever going to fix that. Calling half of them a basket of deplorables may have been a campaign mistake, since she was clearly trying to appeal to the Republicans who aren’t in that category and despised Trump, but it did not make racism and white supremacy in this country any worse. All of those people would have been just as horrible today if Hillary Clinton had never existed.
D58826
@Kathleen: (oops that was meant as a reply to Martin sorry) After reading your comments and some of the other reply I still think that the use of ‘deplorables’ was blown way out of proportion by the GOP and the VSP’s, esp. in contrast to what Der Fuhrer was saying.
And lets remember how we got to this point. First of all I’m not going to argue that the D’;s are perfect. And it is very true that politics is a contact sport and it ain’t bean ball.
And now the infamous BUT:
1. in 1983 250 Marines were killed in Beirut. There was a 6 month investigation, recommendations were made and that was the end of it. No D leader accused Saint Ronulus the unready of being personally responsible for their deaths. In contrast to the 5 year Benghazi and counting witch hunt.
2. Newt made a mountain out of a mole hill over a book that Speaker Jim Wright wrote and forced his resignation from Congress.
3. Many of the freshmen GOOPers who were elected in 1994 decided to sleep in their offices and return home on the weekend because they didn’t want to be tainted by the DC environment
4. All of the ‘scandals’ know as Whitewater.
5. Two time adulterer Gingrich and multi adulterer Bob Livingston lead the crusade to impeach Clinton over a consensual blow job.
6. Jeb used the power of his office to tilt the vote in favor of his brother and then used it again to impede the re-count
7. the mob of white guys in suits that stormed one of the election board recount sites
8. Triple Vietnam amputee Max Clelland slime for treason by a Vietnam era draft dodger
9. Tom Daschel defeated for re-election when the GOP ran ads showing him with Osama and Sadaam
10. The entire GOP obstruction campaign during the 8 years of the Obama administration
11. Birthism, Bill Ayers, Rev Wright, hating America, secret Muslim, etc pushed by Faux news and a stream of GHOOPERs.
12. and on and on.
But Hillary should be crucified, boiled in oil, tarred and feathered, her head on a pike and then driven out of the public square because she used the word deplorables.
Yea that all makes sense
Mnemosyne
@D58826:
To drag it aaaallllll the way back to Martin’s original point before he decided to disappear up Peter Beinart’s asshole:
Violent rhetoric is a problem. We already know that it can energize unstable people into taking action, and this study seems to indicate that even fairly anodyne words like “fight” can trigger them. We should probably be more careful even on this blog to not descend into violent and eliminationist rhetoric, because there are many more lurkers here than there are commenters and we don’t know everyone’s mental health status.
THAT SAID, Beinart’s desperation to find a “both sides do it!” moment by claiming that Hillary’s “basket of deplorables” was morally equivalent to Trump’s calling immigrants rapists and criminals is fucking laughable.
Citizen Alan
@? Martin:
Show me a white supremacist, a homophobic bigot, or someone who wants to expel refugees because they belong to a scary religion, and I will look them straight in the eye and call them a hell of a lot worse than “deplorable.” The people who gave us the Trump Administration are the absolute scum of the Earth. Can we please stop coddling their precious tender feelings?
Citizen Alan
@The Moar You Know:
You are out of your mind if you think legal aid spends it’s incredibly limited time and resources bringing frivolous claims on behalf of crazy ex employees and clients against for downtrodden small business owners. You’re doing good if legal aid can help you to stave off eviction for a month.
D58826
As I say I’m not claiming the D’s are perfect but to fracture a cliche the D’s are bring a knife to the fight while the GOP has been bringing a nuclear armed B-52.
Yet the VSP are obsessed with the knife and whiter it unfairly has a serrated edge
Citizen Alan
My only regret about the basket of deplorables comment was that I thought Hillary was giving them too much credit. After all deplorable is a respectable four letter word. She could have saved herself time and breath simply by saying basket of shit.
Citizen Alan
@? Martin:
There is nothing you could say to them that would persuade them to stop being a horrible person. We are talking about people who have divorced themselves from reality in their hatred of democrats. People who know that the lives of their children are dependent upon Obamacare and who still voted for Trump. I no longer believe that there is anything that can overcome the hatred they have for us and so our only option is to persuade non-voters to get engaged so that we outnumber them. Nothing else will save us from eventual extermination.
Bill Arnold
I genuinely am not trying to be crass, since this is genuinely horrifying, but one thing that forces itself to mind is the usual Republican/Second Amendment Fan line about how it wouldn’t have happened/wouldn’t have been so bad if somebody other than the shooter (or cops) had been armed. Has anybody spotted this argument in the right-wing media?
TenguPhule
@? Martin:
And this does not describe Trump and his Republican party, how?