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“Squeaker” McCarthy

You are here: Home / Politics / Trumpery / Dolt 45 / Phony! Phoni! Phoné!

Phony! Phoni! Phoné!

by | 285 Comments

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Someone is not taking the Washington Post’s reporting about Mueller investigating obstruction of justice charges very well.

Reader Interactions

285Comments

  1. 1.

    Mustang Bobby

    That sardonic chuckle you hear is from the ghost of Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy (R-WI), who adds “You don’t know nothing about witch hunts, comrade.”

  2. 2.

    Trentrunner

    What a petty, whiny, egotistical, fragile, self-absorbed, ignorant, ranting, envious, small, jerkish, douchy, dishonest, corrupting, corrupt, and corrupted fuckhole he is.

    (And I’ve nothing against fuckholes, per se.)

  3. 3.

    Rico

    “It feels good, yeah
    It feels good
    Ooohh it feels good
    It feels good
    It sure feels good to me”

  4. 4.

    dmsilev

    A witch hunt, huh? Let’s just cut to the chase and see whether Trump weighs the same amount as a duck.

  9. 9.

    dmsilev

    Oh, and Donald? If there truly wasn’t anything to the Russian story, why did you fire James Comey and then tell the world it was because he wouldn’t drop the Russian story even after you grunted menacingly at him?

  10. 10.

    Punchy

    This ability to just label stuff as “phony” is, to me, a much more serious issue than some seem to be saying…this seems to imply that he wont accept the findings of the investigation; he will either fire those involved just prior to the release of the report and then burn it, or let it be announced and simply DARE the House to begin impeachment proceedings. Which they obviously will not do.

    Basically, he knows that he can both convince his base that he’s being framed and simply ignore the heat being applied to House leaders when it’s shown he’s broken the law. He’s Teflon, and knows it.

  13. 13.

    Gravenstone

    When they finally come to take him away, it won’t be in handcuffs, but a strait jacket. He’s losing what little is left of his mind, live and on stage.

  15. 15.

    dmsilev

    @Villago Delenda Est: (Looks at Trump, estimates mass). Well, we have a scale at work that will read up to 1000 pounds; I’m willing to donate some time on that.

    And there are some ducks in a nearby pond; I could probably manage to snag one temporarily.

  16. 16.

    dmsilev

    @jeffreyw: If Trump got turned into a Newt and then back again, I’m not really sure at which point “I got better” would apply.

  19. 19.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    While you are at it Donny, were is your long from birth certificate? since you seem to just lie about everything.

  20. 20.

    MattF

    It’s been noted before, but Trump gets the Oscar for ‘acting guilty’. Seriously, what could he possibly do that would be more suspicion-inducing than what he’s doing right now?

  21. 21.

    Another Scott

    @Punchy: (Hey. Longtime no see. Don’t be a stranger.)

    Dunno.

    It’s still very, very early. Watergate took months of public hearings.

    Trump is very vulnerable. He’s getting weaker by the day and it’s not at all clear how much “Teflon” he actually has. The courts have slapped him down left and right. The Senate is not willing to be bullied by him. Leaks from the IC and elsewhere have not stopped – if anything, they’ve increased. Even in the House, he doesn’t seem to have much influence on what goes on there.

    I agree that things are still dangerous for the Republic. But I’m not willing to go doom-and-gloom yet.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  27. 27.

    MJS

    @Another Scott: Not only did Watergate take months of public hearings, it was about a year and 4 months between the break-in and the Saturday Night Massacre. Compared to Watergate, this is moving at warp speed.

  29. 29.

    hueyplong

    I really like his “mean bill” comment. Once Trump establishes for realz his willingness to throw GOP legislators under the bus at a random moment, he loses his usefulness to them and becomes a threat. And they are Trump’s last line of defense.

    Anyone know who planted the “mean” concept in Trump’s head? That person is our in-house friend.kl

  30. 30.

    hovercraft

    @dmsilev:

    A witch hunt, huh? Let’s just cut to the chase and see whether Trump weighs the same amount as a duck.

    My first thought was of Salem……… but hey we’re all supposed to be in a “can’t we all just get along” moment, so I won’t go there. Be positive, be positive, could I just mention how slimming cement boots are, and how they aid buoyancy? Too soon? Okay I’ll stop and just add my voice to that of Malcolm Turnbull, “The Donald and I, we are winning and winning in the polls. We are winning so much, we are winning, we are winning like we have never won before,”
    Are you tired yet America?

  31. 31.

    Another Scott

    Meanwhile…:

    White House budget director Mick Mulvaney on Thursday said the administration hasn’t settled on a strategy for how to raise the debt ceiling a little more than three months before a possible deadline.

    “We haven’t settled on a final way to address the debt ceiling any more than the Hill has,” Mulvaney told reporters.

    Mulvaney appeared to highlight differences of opinion on how to move forward with lifting the nation’s borrowing limit, saying at one point that Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin would remain the point person on the debt issue “once we settle on our policy, if we do.”

    Mulvaney and Mnuchin have offered different public views on how to handle the debt hike, creating an unusual policy rift between the budget director and Treasury secretary.

    Mnuchin wants a clean hike to the debt ceiling, and has vowed to preside over a drama-free process.

    Mulvaney, a member of the conservative House Freedom Caucus until joining the Trump administration this year, wants to tie spending cuts or other budgetary reforms to the debt hike.

    […]

    Democrats have warned that they will oppose tying spending cuts or other budgetary reforms to the debt ceiling. Republicans have often needed Democratic votes on debt hike bills in the House, and in the Senate they would need at least eight Democratic votes to clear a filibuster.

    Mulvaney said he believes that there may be a workaround, however.

    He said instructions for raising the debt ceiling could be included in the upcoming budget resolution. The measure would move through the Senate under special budgetary rules that prevent a Democratic filibuster — though the rules are strict and it could be tough to add the debt language.

    One of the ideas being floated as a policy rider, Mulvaney said, was reform over the budgetary process, which has not functioned as designed for many years.

    As for the budget, Mulvaney said that he expected serious changes from the president’s proposal.

    He said Congress may not agree to the $54 billion in proposed cuts to discretionary domestic spending, which are intended to pay for increased defense spending.

    “Maybe we don’t give you all $54 billion, we may give you half of that,” Mulvaney said.

    While the administration remains open to Congress working out the strategy and form of passing a budget, he added, there was one clear line: no continuing resolutions. A continuing resolution would keep 2017 spending levels intact and prevent funding for promises such as funding the president’s border wall.

    “We’d be against a continuing resolution because that wouldn’t allow us to find those priorities,” Mulvaney said.

    Emphasis added.

    Hmmm…. :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (“It’s not an election year, so a shut-down is a real possibility…”)

  32. 32.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @MattF: He’s a cornered wild animal. He’s my cat after being caught on the kitchen table. He’s a three-year old with his hand in the cookie jar.

  35. 35.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Another Scott:

    Trump is very vulnerable. He’s getting weaker by the day and it’s not at all clear how much “Teflon” he actually has. The courts have slapped him down left and right. The Senate is not willing to be bullied by him. Leaks from the IC and elsewhere have not stopped – if anything, they’ve increased. Even in the House, he doesn’t seem to have much influence on what goes on there.

    Yes, it really feels like Trump more has intertia and it takes more that six months for the public to digest something this big protecting him more than anything else right now. If the trend keeps on going this way Trump will be at 27% approval by the end of the year (of course that 27% of the public will be 90% of the remaning Republicans so the GoP will still do nothing)

  36. 36.

    Iowa Old Lady

    @MJS: The speed suggests that in addition to being criminal, Trump is inept. One unfortunate thing about it, though, is that it hasn’t given the country time to decide Trump has to go. As I recall with Nixon, it took a while to change the minds of the people who’d voted for him. He was re-elected in a landslide over McGovern, so that’s a lot of people, and it needed to happen for the overturning of that election to be accepted.

  43. 43.

    hovercraft

    @schrodingers_cat:
    I guess I misunderstood, I though we were checking to see if he’d sink or swim ;( hence the cement floatation devices.
    I’m frazzled, the plumbers have removed most of the ceiling in my garage and basement, there’s water and dust everywhere and it stinks, but still they say they haven’t cleared the blockage. Fun!

  47. 47.

    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot

    @MJS:

    Prelude to a firing

    Exactly what I see, too.

    What’s worse for Trump and his cronies: letting Mueller & Co. find all the shit that Trump and the cronies know is there to be found and then bringing it to light, or firing Mueller before that can happen and then facing the pretty much impotent (for now, anyway) even if very loud criticism that would of course follow that firing?

    The answer seems obvious to me.

  48. 48.

    Jeffro

    @Gravenstone:”When they finally come to take him away, it won’t be in handcuffs, but a strait jacket. He’s losing what little is left of his mind, live and on stage.”

    Claw marks on the Oval Office door frame, I’m tellin’ you…

  53. 53.

    Mike in DC

    How long before Bobby Three Sticks serves him with the grand jury subpoena? I think that’s the day Trump tries to fire him. Because he’d be looking at potential perjury in addition to obstruction (and maybe witness tampering too).
    “Sure, he’s going to prison for the rest of his life, but you never got him on collusion. Suck it, libtards!”

  54. 54.

    hovercraft

    @Jeffro:
    “”When they finally come to take him away, it won’t be in handcuffs, but a strait jacket. He’s losing what little is left of his mind, live and on stage.”

    Claw marks on the Oval Office door frame, I’m tellin’ you…”

    I’m thinking a tranquilizer gun will be involved, elephant dosage. He’ll wake up in a padded room with Ivanka talking to him through plexiglass glass.

  55. 55.

    Aleta

    href=”#comment-6428545″>John Cole: Taking your excellence for granted isn’t the same as ignoring.

  58. 58.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo fka Edmund Dantes

    OT – Louisville got hammered. Wins with “ineligible players” vacated from 2010 forward to 2014 IIRC. Tournament money for about 4 strategy get years clawed back.

    I wonder if they’ll just give it to North Carolina?

  59. 59.

    Karen

    @Mustang Bobby: I often thought that man must have been reincarnation of some the past witch hunters, but frustrated that he wasn’t allowed to torture

  61. 61.

    SatanicPanic

    @hueyplong: We learned two things in the last couple weeks- Paul Ryan thinks Donald Trump is unprepared and ignorant. Donald Trump thinks the House healthcare bill is mean. We should repeat these things every chance we get, from now until we die.

  62. 62.

    chopper

    @hueyplong:

    somebody in drumpf’s inner circle finally got through to him the point that congressional republicans are using the guy to take the fall for the horrible nasty shit they’ve wanted to push through for the last 50 years. this is his feeble attempt to fight back, but it’s too late, he’s slapped his name all over this shit bill. it’s his all over.

  63. 63.

    JPL

    @John Cole: Not bad, but you’re not Doug.

    I just returned from errands, and the news is telling me Trump is going to make a statement. Does this mean Mueller is gone?

  65. 65.

    Kay

    So all of Trump’s yelling and threats are nice, but if this turns into a criminal investigation all the executive privilege and “I’ll fire the prosecutor!” just goes out the window, right?

    If it’s criminal they just take it to a grand jury like with anyone else, right? President or no President, executive privilege or not, the President can’t be committing crimes in there. We have a process for that.

  66. 66.

    The Moar You Know

    Support for Trump among the GOP has fallen from somewhere around 81 percent to 75 percent.

    The GOP won’t move on him until that number gets closer to 50 percent.

  68. 68.

    hovercraft

    @Aleta:
    That’s some really circular logic there. I’m sure Hillary and Loretta Lynch are just quacking in their boots at the thought of an investigation into their conspiracy to use the word “matter” instead of “investigation”, I’m sure that their legal exposure is keeping them up at night.

  70. 70.

    rikyrah

    I’m on google chrome right now, and the before and after arrows have disappeared. I can’t use them to go from one post to the next.

    Is it just me?

  72. 72.

    manyakitty

    @John Cole: I was merely blinded by your brilliance. It took a second to regain enough sight to type my extreme appreciation of such incisive wit and humor.

  73. 73.

    hitchhiker

    Trump’s got all those psychos whispering in his ear all the time.

    The Mercers. That lunatic who runs Newsmax. Rudy. Newt. Hannity. Dog knows who the f$ck else.

    It’s a troubling group, all around. Untethered to the actual world, but with the only credential that Trump respects, which is of course plenty of dough. These are the voices pushing his flabby old soul into dark corners, and he is NOT able to resist them … because they’re saying what he needs to hear.

    “They’re all out to get you. You must defeat them.”

  75. 75.

    The Moar You Know

    I’m on google chrome right now, and the before and after arrows have disappeared. I can’t use them to go from one post to the next.

    Is it just me?

    @rikyrah: Nope. Also gone are formatting buttons, ability to edit after posting (so I better not screw this up!).

  79. 79.

    Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire

    Tony Toni Tone also had a song called “No Loot,” which is fitting for Dolt 45’s broke ass.

  81. 81.

    Amir Khalid

    @hovercraft:

    I’m sure Hillary and Loretta Lynch are just quacking in their boots …

    For some reason, I find this mental image quite delightful.

  82. 82.

    Immanentize

    @Another Scott: Is he saying Trump would veto a continuing resolution? I doubt it because the whole shut down would be on Trump and Trump alone. Mulvaney is very crazy.

  84. 84.

    sherparick

    @Another Scott: Well, I guess Trump, Mulvaney, and Ryan may be trying to find out how unpopuluar they can make the Republican Party. Right now, the Republican donor class is stupid and still looking forward to the tax cuts. After, all for the 5,000 or so families that form the heart of the Kochtupus, these cuts (estate tax elimination, capital gains cuts or elimination, and reduction in the marginal rate) means hundreds of millions, and some cases of billions of dollars, over the the next 10 years. However, a Government shutdown and debt celing crisis could mean hundreds of millions and billions lost overnight and as the stock market, real estate market, and bond market crash and the economy goes from slow growth to recession overnight.

  85. 85.

    Another Scott

    @Immanentize: That seems to be what he’s saying. Donnie wants his bigly wall, so he’s going to throw a fit until he gets it!!11

    Of course, we know how Donnie and his people “negotiate” and how absolutely horrible they are at it (politics isn’t real estate), so nobody really knows what will happen… :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  87. 87.

    West of the Rockies (been a while)

    @hitchhiker:

    I hope Hannity is ruined by his constant fanboy defense and fellating of Trump. Newt is sort of reaching an age where he’s less relevant, but I hope he gets ousted from interview spots, too.

  88. 88.

    Immanentize

    @Another Scott: I just don’t think Mulvaney has the stroke in the White House to actually speak for what Trump would do — he is talking for himself. Maybe to himself also for all we know.

  94. 94.

    ChrisS

    So I assume Trump will release his financial dealings for public scrutiny to clear the air and testify under oath that he hasn’t done anything illegal.

  97. 97.

    Immanentize

    @manyakitty: Hey there — I saw your note on this morning’s thread — Holding up, but this cycle was hard. Next cycle starts tomorrow with a full day in the poison room…. I do appreciate you checking in and I’ll try to keep you posted. I am going to show up to add something to GreenNotGreen’s post tomorrow at noon to thank her….

  98. 98.

    Immanentize

    @randy khan: Loretta Lynch. Strikes a bell. Isn’t she both a she and also a black she?

    It’s funny how they hate her even more than they hated Holder (Fast and Furious!!)

  100. 100.

    lollipopguild

    @Immanentize: I just hope Sen. Harris is ready for the wall of hate that will descend on her because of her verbal frisking of the Confederate Elf.

  101. 101.

    randy khan

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Pushing for the wall is a base play for Trump. As a tactic, though, it’s kind of stupid to push it in the context of a CR or an increase in the debt ceiling because it’s unlikely he’ll get it, and that will make him look bad with the base.

  102. 102.

    Brachiator

    You are witnessing the single greatest WITCH HUNT in American political history – led by some very bad and conflicted people! #MAGA

    The man does not know how to shut up. And the childish reductionism: if you like him you’re “good.” Otherwise you’re a bad person.

    Has there ever been another president or major political figure like this in American history?

    Also, this kind of crap has got to be a smokescreen, a public fronting for the chumps. Surely he has got to have lawyers working for him building a possible defense.

    The other consistently infantile thing is that even if he were as innocent of anything as a babe in swaddling clothes, he dismisses any possibility of bad action by a staffer or the Russians because it would diminish his fantasy of himself as the Glorious Dear Leader who must shine for all like new money.

    I ain’t no dockta doing a diagnosee frum a diskance, but this Trump muthafukka is insane.

    You’re a bad man. You’re a very bad man, and you keep thinking bad thoughts about me.

    –Little Anthony the monster, age 6, Twilight Zone episode, “It’s A Good Life.”

    ETA: Don’t call me Shirley.

  104. 104.

    Gravenstone

    @Kay: As was pointed out on Maddow last night, if it is a criminal investigation then the controlling precedent is Nixon. Trump won’t win that one.

  105. 105.

    bemused

    If I was an inner WH staffer with knowledge or participation in anything Mueller is investigating, I’d be freaking out and lawyering up right now. They know Trump has no loyalty to anyone but himself and would throw any of them under the bus in a second.

  106. 106.

    Gravenstone

    @rikyrah: No, I was looking for a good spot to mention I’d lost next/previous post arrows as well. Also on Chrome.

  107. 107.

    Aleta

    Good witches don’t moan and whine, Donnie.

    1. Sarah Kendzior‏ @sarahkendzior 31m31 minutes ago
    Good article on lack of broadband internet access in much of Missouri.
    HRC wanted to fix this; elite coastal journos mocked her for it.
    Sarah Kendzior Retweeted Shalini Ramachandran
    Shalini [email protected]
    Rural America Is Stranded in the Dial-Up Age https://www.wsj.com/articles/rural america-is-stranded-in-the-dial-up-age-1497535841

    2. The HRC quote is:
    ” If you drive around in some of the places that beat the heck out of me, you cannot get cell coverage for miles. And so, even in towns — so, the president was in Harrisburg. I was in Harrisburg during the campaign, and I met with people afterward. One of the things they said to me is that there are places in central Pennsylvania where we don’t have access to affordable high-speed Internet.”

    3. Responses in the media to a rural problem she identified
    —“You cannot get cell coverage for mile,” Clinton says of the places that voted against her. (from Time mag, by Phil Elliott)

    —Clinton NOW talking about Pennsylvania, rural cell service. Uhhh.
    (from CNN, by Zach Wolf)

    —Is @HillaryClinton adding cell coverage to “List of reasons not including myself why I lost” list? (from regional National Republican Senatorial Committee director Clinton Soffer)

    —This anti-rural snootiness doesn’t help Dems. I’m from deep-red, no-cell-coverage MO; Clinton fans there (my folks) wouldn’t appreciate. (a Silicon Valley start-up, by Jess McCuan)

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/02/this-one-clinton-quote-shows-why-her-supporters-hate-the-media/?utm_term=.79ab54ddff63

  108. 108.

    randy khan

    @Immanentize:

    I’m not sure they hate her much more than Holder; that’s a pretty high standard.

    In this case, I think it’s just a convenient hook for a stupid argument.

  110. 110.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @rikyrah:

    Not just you. The up-down arrows remain, but the previous/next post arrows are gone.

    As, I just noticed, are all the formatting buttons for italics, blockquoteblockquote, bold, etc. Alain must be committing alchemy back in his laboratory.

    (I use the desktop formatting on iPad/Safari.)

  111. 111.

    Jeffro

    Several witty folks on Twitter pointing out that perhaps the Russia investigation is only the second-biggest witch hunt in history…

    …the first being the hunt for Obama’s official, long-form, double-secret birth certificate.

    Irony is dead, buried, and has turned to dust.

  112. 112.

    Another Scott

    @Gravenstone: Now that you mention it, they’re gone here on Chrome on Winders too. I just did a forced refresh and it didn’t help. Coulda sworn they were working earlier this AM.

    Gremlins…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  114. 114.

    tobie

    @Brachiator:
    “The other consistently infantile thing is that even if he were as innocent of anything as a babe in swaddling clothes, he dismisses any possibility of bad action by a staffer or the Russians because it would diminish his fantasy of himself as the Glorious Dear Leader who must shine for all like new money.”

    Bingo. He’s so stupid he may not have been involved in the collusion efforts. (I’m not convinced of this but I’ll accept it as a possibility.) What he can’t accept is the role the Russians played –with the aid of his staff — in this electoral college victory. This is a wound too great for his fragile ego.

  115. 115.

    Immanentize

    @bemused: But Trump’s personal lawyer told them they don’t need to! I wonder if he can get sued for that (quite possibly yes i fit proves not to be true).

    But to your central point — You are right, if any staffer had anything to do with the finance side of the campaign, I would have a lawyer on retainer and speed dial.

  119. 119.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Immanentize: “Holding up, but this cycle was hard. Next cycle starts tomorrow with a full day in the poison room.” (quote buttons missing)

    Speaking as a former primary caretaker for a cancer patient, unfortunately the side effects of each cycle are cumulatively worse. So sorry she has to go through that. We’re pulling for you and Ms. Imm!

  120. 120.

    zhena gogolia

    Here’s a bit of advice for everyone: don’t read the comments under any YouTube videos of Putin. Projectile vomiting will immediately ensue.

  123. 123.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Aleta: “If you drive around in some of the places that beat the heck out of me, you cannot get cell coverage for miles.”

    This is true in rural New Mexico, where I live. I had to get a landline for basic safety because my cell phone is practically useless at home. WRT internet, we just got broadband last year (thank you, Senator Udall!), so we can finally stream Netflix etc., but upload is still not fast enough for serious business use.

  124. 124.

    Another Scott

    @O. Felix Culpa: We didn’t appreciate the lack of even basic phone cell coverage years ago when we took a vacation in the Black Hills of SD. Of course, it was almost impossible to get a signal. Even now, if you look carefully at the “look at how many people we cover!!1” maps, there are still areas in SD (and other western states) that have nothing (and likely will never get decent service unless the government mandates it).

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  125. 125.

    Kay

    @Gravenstone:

    Right. Because he can’t “win that one”. Then we really would be saying the President is above the law.

    That would be kind of wild. The Trump grand jury. I would like it because it would become so..ordinary in a way. He’d have to be treated like any other defendant. I was listening to Sessions stonewall and thinking “you can rely on this for now but it’s a whole different game if they find criminal behavior”.

  126. 126.

    Shalimar

    @John Cole: This headline is about the 100th variation of that joke I have seen over the years, funny but not your best effort. For what it’s worth though, I like your headlines better than Doug’s, which is a huge compliment.

  127. 127.

    dmsilev

    @zhena gogolia: Reading YouTube comments on just about anything is a bad idea. It’s not quite the bottom of the Internet barrel, but it’s pretty close.

  129. 129.

    Kay

    So this is what I ask conservative lawyers now. “Do you think he’s innocent?” :)

    It’s a truly horrible question for them, but I deserve to get some licks in.

  130. 130.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Aleta: “I lived in rural N Mexico for awhile; still miss it so much.”

    I moved to NM two years ago after spending my entire adult life in big cities and am thankful for every day here.

  135. 135.

    d58826

    I really feel sorry for Jeff Sessions. It’s just so hard to get good help these days in cover up perjury. First he has to deal with a Russian Amb. who blabs on a monitored line to his bosses in Moscow.

    Then an American who lobbies for Russia didn’t get the memo about Jeff never talking to lobbies for Russia. ‘An American lobbyist for Russian interests who helped craft an important foreign policy speech for Donald Trump has confirmed that he attended two dinners hosted by Jeff Sessions during the 2016 campaign, apparently contradicting the attorney general’s sworn testimony given this week.
    Sessions testified under oath on Tuesday that he did not believe he had any contacts with lobbyists working for Russian interests over the course of Trump’s campaign. But Richard Burt, a former ambassador to Germany during the Reagan administration, who has represented Russian interests in Washington, told the Guardian that he could confirm previous media reports that stated he had contacts with Sessions at the time.
    “I did attend two dinners with groups of former Republican foreign policy officials and Senator Sessions,” Burt said.
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/15/lobbyist-russian-interests-jeff-sessions-testimony?CMP=share_btn_tw

  136. 136.

    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot

    @Kay: Your questions regarding whether or not a sitting President can be brought up on criminal charges like anyone else are crucial to this enormous issue (whether we’re talking obstruction of justice or — seems farfetched to me — actual criminal collusion with Russians by Trump himself or — more likely, I think — something criminal in Trump’s financial dealings).

    They have, however, never been decided one way or another. Watergate was the closest we came to deciding, with Nixon’s lawyers arguing that, according to the Constitution, only Congress — through the process of impeachment — can prosecute a President for anything. Nixon’s resignation (and then Ford’s prophylactic pardon) obviated any need for our country’s constituted powers to wrangle over that and decide which view pertained.

    So, still very much an open question, and you can bet which side Republicans are on.

    As with so many things Trump (“Hey, look, there’s an emolument clause!” “Yeah, so?”) we are in uncharted, practically “through the looking glass”, constitutional-crisis waters here. Now, try to imagine which law enforcement agency would actually serve president Trump with an arrest warrant for, I don’t know, some tax evasion scheme involving one of Putin’s pet oligarchs or somesuch, or (less exotically) the plain old obstruction of justice with Comey that was pretty obvious to the entire fucking world. How would that actually happen? Who — exactly — would even make the attempt when the question of whether anyone outside Congress even has the legal authority to do that to a president is unresolved?

    Only Congress can touch Trump, and the Republicans who have all the power in that institution right now aren’t going to do shit to him no matter what. I don’t understand why anyone thinks otherwise about these fucking fascists who rule over us. They’ve shown us all exactly who they are and what they are willing to do, political “norms” and institutions be damned.

  137. 137.

    Mike in DC

    Fun parlor game: how many articles of impeachment can we come up with against Trump? Please specify “assuming collusion” or “no collusion proven” in your responses.
    I can think of 3 related to the Comey firing:
    1. Obstruction of justice
    2. Witness tampering
    3. Perjury (when he’s deposed under oath about it)
    The 4th is violation of the emoluments Claude
    5th is “abuse of power”, a nice catch all.

    This all assumes no collusion. If there is collusion, he’ll have more articles of impeachment than Nixon (5 proposed, 3 approved), Clinton (4 proposed, 2 approved), and Andrew Johnson(11!) combined.

    ETA: Almost forgot blabbing to the Russians about Israel hacking ISIS. That’s #6!

  138. 138.

    Immanentize

    @d58826: That is a pretty sweet find. Of course, there are probably way too many folks like Burt out there for Session’s story to hold up. I think being in the Senate all those years ed him to believe he could do anything and get away with it.

  139. 139.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Aleta: Same for me; also the side buttons to navigate to next/previous thread are gone. Not bitching, just reporting.

  141. 141.

    D58826

    @Aleta: same here. And when I was logged on earlier the thread died at 11:30am ET but did not show any oft he newer posts.

  143. 143.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Mike in DC: ” If there is collusion, he’ll have more articles of impeachment than Nixon (5 proposed, 3 approved), Clinton (4 proposed, 2 approved), and Andrew Johnson(11!) combined.”

    So much winning! I won’t ever get tired of that kind of winning.

  144. 144.

    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot

    @Gravenstone: “As was pointed out on Maddow last night, if it is a criminal investigation then the controlling precedent is Nixon. Trump won’t win that one.”

    This is wrong. There is no “controlling precedent” with Nixon on the question of whether or not a sitting President can be brought up on criminal charges outside of Congress. That incredibly-important question remains unresolved.

  145. 145.

    hovercraft

    @Mike in DC:
    Criminal Stupidity
    Criminal Narcissism
    Crimes against Hair Follicles and the Epidermis
    Illegal mutilation of the English Language
    Sacrilege against cattle who’ve sacrificed their lives to provide human nourishment

    Someone call RuPaul quick.

  146. 146.

    Kay

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    “(whether we’re talking obstruction of justice or — seems farfetched to me — actual criminal collusion with Russians by Trump himself or — more likely, I think — something criminal in Trump’s financial dealings).’

    I know it’s not been done but I disagree that it’s a “question”.

    It can’t be a question or the President is, in fact, above the law. Criminal is the bright line. Just because no one crossed it doesn’t mean it’s up for debate. If they really want to discredit everything we supposedly stand for they’ll get squishy on this, but they shouldn’t.

    Criminal is a high bar to prove and a low bar to hold him to. If they waver there, this experiment is over- it failed. That means all bets are off as far as what the President may or may not do and that can’t happen. The whole discussion about impeachment and executive privilege is interesting as far as misdeeds and high crimes and allegations but if they have enough to indict he can’t be held to a lower standard than the tens of thousands of criminal defendants who are shuffling thru courtrooms as we speak. They’ll have to decide if they;re too scared to do the right thing. If they are then the President can (and will) do anything.

  147. 147.

    Immanentize

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot: wwaaaah! I just lost a long comment on this.

    Quickie repeat without anything fun. My understanding of the law of the moment:
    1) President can be sued and required to do court stuff as long as it does not interfere with his duties (deposition OK, but trial maybe not) — Clinton
    2) Presidents can certainly be indicted for what they did before they were President (like during the campaign) but may be able to avoid prosecution until after their term is over. Nixon, Agnew, etc. This particularly applies to State prosecutions because the States cannot be allowed to interfere with the functioning of a duly elected federal President….
    3) Disputed area — Can a President be indicted for what s/he does while President. Some say no, that the only remedy is Impeachment (a political question) Others say: of course — if a crime is committed, it can be the basis of an indictment. There is a third option which is: If the crime is related to an act the President took as President, then no, but if it is an act outside the duties of the President (like shooting someone on 5th Avenue) then yes. The issue with this last one is Justice Rehnquist’s oft-repeated concept in other contexts that if you commit a crime then it is never within the duties of your office or subject to the rules we create for law abiding citizens.

    Believe me, my first comment was way more interesting

  148. 148.

    TenguPhule

    Its as if Trump and the Republicans completely forgot about the witch hunts against Bill and Hillary Clinton.

    Projection. It is always 100% projection from the fuckers.

  149. 149.

    Brachiator

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    Only Congress can touch Trump, and the Republicans who have all the power in that institution right now aren’t going to do shit to him no matter what. I don’t understand why anyone thinks otherwise about these fucking fascists who rule over us. They’ve shown us all exactly who they are and what they are willing to do, political “norms” and institutions be damned.

    Yep. The Republicans made a deal with Trump once it was apparent that he was winning all the primaries. He’s their man. They are stuck with him, no matter what.

    The Republicans are also cynically delusional. They have convinced themselves that they are the only legitimate political party in America, and that they deserve to govern even if they have to destroy democracy in order to save it.

    And that’s just one layer of the political onion. The pseudo-libertarian Koch Brothers and others are plutocrats who are also happy with Trump because for them, democracy is an inconvenience.

    And then you have people like Glenn Greenwald and other supposed progressives whose fetish is to punish insufficiently pure liberals even if it means capitulating to conservatives.

    I will throw in the unexpected counter-reaction of fear and loathing to Obama’s presidency by racists who simply could not and cannot imagine that a black man might actually love America as much as anyone else. This sickness was compounded in the reaction of those who hated Hillary Clinton and gave into their hatred in the presidential election.

    And then you have Putin, who is less powerful than people imagine, who is reaping huge benefits from the stupidity of Trump and the Republicans. I don’t think he is pulling strings as much as he is greatly benefitting from fools who have no idea how dangerous the game they are playing can be for the future of the country.

  152. 152.

    catclub

    @Another Scott: “The Senate is not willing to be bullied by him. ”

    I would say that McConnell pushing through a terrible healthcare bill is so TRUMP will have a win.

  153. 153.

    Kay

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    “The state representative indicted on violations of state ethics laws appeared in court for a bond hearing Thursday morning.
    Rep. Jim Merrill and his attorney, fellow state Rep. Leon Stavrinakis, formally heard the 30 charges against him at the hearing. The judge in this case granted bond at $146,000 personal recognizance.
    Merrill was indicted last week by First Circuit Solicitor David Pascoe as a result of Pascoe’s probe of alleged corruption in the State House. Pascoe was selected to run the probe by Attorney General Alan Wilson. ”

    This happens to federal lawmakers too. Whatever happens to him in the legislature is immaterial to the criminal prosecution. This is “state of SC versus representative” – he committed a crime. The End. They can expel him or do whatever they do with crooked reps in SC but he was indicted just like anyone else in the criminal system and they do their thing.

  154. 154.

    scav

    Poor dear. Well, if he wants a widdle bwake, maybe he can tweet about the 12$bn worth of F-15 jets the US is now selling to Qatar after Qatar just this Friday being called a funder of terrorism by his widdle self. Are the jets just being perfidiously leaked by a part of his government treasonously not marching to his every tweet or maybe just the return on being an upstream-supplier of terrorism was too attractive to pass up, or, well, I’m sure something will emerge that only a fake media Comey Clintin Obama Nasty Sad HashtagMean Cjhvgufdnn would fail to see the genius logic shining out from the set of all actions.

  155. 155.

    TenguPhule

    @Punchy:

    He’s Teflon, and knows it.

    Teflon doesn’t mean invulnerable. Or even bulletproof for that matter. It simply means that most liquids slide off without leaving any residue.

    But scratch the surface just a little and all its properties come undone.

    /Why yes, I was talking about the physical properties of the material, why do you ask?

  157. 157.

    TenguPhule

    @MattF:

    Seriously, what could he possibly do that would be more suspicion-inducing than what he’s doing right now?

    Trump: “HOLD MY FUCKING BEER!”

    You forget, its not Friday yet.

  158. 158.

    TenguPhule

    @scav: WTH, I thought we discontinued making that model. Iran was one of the few countries still using them IIRC.

  160. 160.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @catclub:
    McConnell doesn’t care jack shit about what Trump wants. Nobody on Capitol Hill does. McConnell laughed at Trump’s budget demands, and passed a continuing resolution slightly weighed towards Democrat interests. If McConnell destroys Obamacare, it will be because he personally chokes on bile every morning remembering a black man was his boss.

  162. 162.

    catclub

    @bemused: “They know Trump has no loyalty to anyone but himself and would throw any of them under the bus in a second.”

    Well, you would think they know this. But if they actually knew this they would never have taken the job in the first place.

  164. 164.

    Amir Khalid

    @TenguPhule:
    The F-15 is still a pretty damn good fighter plane, and was probably the US’ most recently successful air superiority fighter project (compared to the overpriced lemons, the F-22 and F-35). I still have fond memories of playing Strike Eagle III on the PC.

  165. 165.

    No Drought No More

    Isn’t “conflicted” a strange word for Trump to include in this recent panic attack of his? I suspect it’s telling, though just what it tells beats me. Assuming it’s Trump once again projecting, the answer could be as simple him being conflicted whether or not Putin will uphold his end of the bargain and grant him the promised opulent (albeit disgraced) exile in a grateful Russian motherland, orr whether the SOB will double-cross him, and abandon him to rot in a federal prison somewhere…

  166. 166.

    Kay

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    I insist he be treated like crap like any other poor soul who ends up the criminal system. Maybe no belly chains, but just because he’s old and probably not dangerous :)

    I am serious about it though. They can have any lawyerly discussions they want but if they start exempting the president from criminal prosecutions they may as well just hang up the ‘ol equal justice under the law theory. It doesn’t mean anything.

  167. 167.

    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot

    Here’s the point: only Congress can do jack-shit to Trump. Whether collusion with Russia, tax evasion, money laundering, obstruction of justice, whatever-the-fuck-else could be found. Via impeachment, that’s it. There is no other duly recognized legal authority. And a Republican-controlled House is never drawing up articles, nor are there 67 Senators who would convict. So he’s not Teflon, he’s bullet-proof (metaphorically speaking, of course).

    Trump’s cronies? Different story. Some few of them may go down, but only if Mueller’s investigation goes forward (and only if Mueller himself actually plays it straight; he’s a Republican so I have my doubts even about that). And there’s the pardon parachute available in any event (if Trump’s feels like it, that is — I figure only Kushner would be a “for sure” pardon if actually convicted of anything).

  168. 168.

    FlyingToaster

    @JPL@John Cole: :

    Not bad, but you’re not Doug. </blockquote.

    For which we can all be eternally grateful.

    I think it’s funny, but I am married to a linguist.

  169. 169.

    germy

    If James Comey faces persecution for giving the media a memo detailing his interactions with President Trump, Vladimir Putin would happily grant the former FBI director asylum in Moscow, the Russian president and unrepentant troll said Thursday.

    Speaking at his annual question-and-answer session in Moscow, Putin compared Comey to Edward Snowden and called him a “civil activist” before making his offer of asylum.

    Putin addressed other topics related to the U.S. during the Q&A, which largely touched on local issues and fishing stories (Putin’s biggest fish was 44 pounds). While Putin said the U.S. is not the enemy of Russia, he also came as close as he ever has to admitting the country’s attempts to meddle in the 2016 U.S. elections, reportedly saying, “They meddle in all other countries affairs, what did they expect?”

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/06/master-troll-vladimir-putin-offers-comey-political-asylum.html

  170. 170.

    FlyingToaster

    @FlyingToaster: Okay, WTF happened to my blockquote? And where did the buttons go?

    [grumbling as I switch to a browser that isn’t broken)

  171. 171.

    TenguPhule

    @Amir Khalid: I thought we were selling F-16s to our allies. As I recall, Iran’s whole airforce was F-15s that we’d originally sold them, so after the revolution they had a bastard of a time trying to maintain them because the parts became so hard to get.

  172. 172.

    Immanentize

    @Kay: Bryan Stevenson of the Equal Justice Initiative in Alabama filed a “Motion to Treat My 14 Year-Old Client As a 75 year Old, White, Privileged Corporate Executive”

  173. 173.

    Another Scott

    @catclub: I think Mitch has his own agenda. Keeping Donnie in office via an occasion “win” is probably part of Mitch’s plans. But Mitch is going to do his best to do things on his own terms. E.g. the filibuster.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (“Who knows that Donnie wants – more than just about anything – to get rid of the AMT – will Mitch and the Teabaggers give him that?”)

  174. 174.

    Kay

    @No Drought No More:

    They seem to be arguing “partisan hack”. Because as we all know (far Right Republican partisan) Jeff Sessions just calls balls and strikes.

    It’s ridiculous. Trump chose a GOP Senator as AG- a far Right GOP Senator who campaigned for him and stood there like a lawn ornament (the gnome, obviously) when they were all bellowing “lock her up”. He’s partisan. A political actor. Yet he’s the AG. I’m not screaming bloody murder about that.

  176. 176.

    TenguPhule

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    Now, try to imagine which law enforcement agency would actually serve Trump with an arrest warrant for, I don’t know, some tax evasion scheme involving one of Putin’s pet oligarchs or somesuch, or (less exotically) the plain old obstruction of justice with Comey that was pretty obvious to the entire fucking world. How would that actually happen? Who — exactly — would even make the attempt when the question of whether anyone outside Congress even has the legal authority to do that to a president is unresolved?

    But think of the children! And their delicate minds!

    /why no, I’m not bitter or anything. //

  178. 178.

    Kay

    @Immanentize:

    I don’t think a major corporation would hire Trump as CEO without finding out HIS BUSINESS DEALINGS. They would want to make sure he wouldn’t be INDICTED.

    Yet. He’s President of the United States. And no one looked. He told them to fuck off when they asked and they all said “okay, Mr. Trump!”

    We don’t know the first thing about this guy. There was already a money laundering case against Trump. It’s not like there weren’t clues!

  180. 180.

    Amir Khalid

    @TenguPhule:
    I’ve kind of wondered myself, what kind of black market operator would be able to find F-15 parts to sell to Iran.

  181. 181.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    I’m aching to hear that they found evidence of collusion, money laundering, misuse of public office, violation of various laws involving the citizenry and hostile foreign nations, AND obstruction of justice.

    Because they keep saying “OH, they’re looking at ANOTHER crime which means there’s NO EVIDENCE of the previously mentioned ones”, and oh, dear lord, I hate to gloat over legal troubles, but this isn’t some loser with a large bag of weed or even “intent to distribute” quantities of heroin/cocaine/etc., and it sure wasn’t trying to Trump up charges against a woman everyone knew was innocent of wrongdoing.

    This was deliberate, brazen, illegal behavior, by people who were sure the fix was in.

  182. 182.

    Mnemosyne

    @randy khan:

    It’s amazing how much of the document is devoted to Loretta Lynch.

    Economic insecurity raises its ugly head again. So weird how economic insecurity demands taking their anxiety out exclusively on women and minorities, innit?

    And the poor. Can’t forget shitting on the poor.

  183. 183.

    TenguPhule

    @Another Scott: Manchin is already making noises about taking measures to keep from default.

    And Treasury does have options.

    Its just that none of those theories has ever been tried or tested before.

    So what could possibly go wrong?

  184. 184.

    catclub

    @Kay: “They seem to be arguing “partisan hack”. Because as we all know (far Right Republican partisan) Jeff Sessions just calls balls and strikes.

    I was thinking about Ken Starr and his legal team. Never mind that he was put in specifically because the previous guy was not enough of a partisan hack.

  185. 185.

    Kay

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    So Trump can murder someone in the Oval Office and we have to seat a law review article team? The law enforcement agency in that jurisdiction arrests him or he hires a fancy lawyer and they make arrangements to turn himself in. I don’t see it as so complicated. What takes him OUT of the criminal system? He’s IN, presumptively, until he’s OUT. That we haven’t arrested a President yet? That’s why we can’t arrest this one?

  186. 186.

    TenguPhule

    @Amir Khalid: I always figured it came from parts we’d sold to other allies for their fighters. But as I said before, I thought we’d discontinued the F-15 series already once everybody started buying F-16s.

  187. 187.

    catclub

    @TenguPhule: It will be amusing when Trump mints the $1tr coin to fix the debt ceiling problem.

    I would actually approve of that.
    I would also approve if the Treasury started issuing 100 year bonds.

  188. 188.

    Brachiator

    @Kay:

    That we haven’t arrested a President yet? That’s why we can’t arrest this one?

    Yep.

  190. 190.

    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot

    @Kay: I believe a President should be subject to criminal prosecution like any ordinary schmoe, but that’s not how it works.

    This really is a completely unresolved question involving the Constitution and the office of President. Only two presidents (A. Johnson and Clinton) have ever been brought up on any charges, and those of course were through the impeachment process, and even Nixon was told (by Republican Senators, back when at least a few of them weren’t total party-before-country fascists) that he would be impeached and most likely convicted over Watergate if he didn’t resign.

    We’ve simply never resolved whether or not a President is subject to prosecution outside the impeachment process (mostly because it’s actually never got that far) so impeachment is it. At this point there is no other institution other than Congress that is recognized as having prosecutorial power over the President. Period, full stop. It isn’t just a “lawyerly discussion”, it’s how the power of any law enforcement against the President himself actually exists.

  191. 191.

    TenguPhule

    @Kay:

    The law enforcement agency in that jurisdiction arrests him or he hires a fancy lawyer and they make arrangements to turn himself in. I don’t see it as so complicated. What takes him OUT of the criminal system? He’s IN, presumptively, until he’s OUT. That we haven’t arrested a President yet? That’s why we can’t arrest this one?

    Secret Service and private bodyguards. And precedent. Which federal or state officer is going to stick their neck out to venture into unknown legal waters?

    They would literally be risking their career and life, perhaps even the lives of their families. When you come at the King, you better not miss.

  192. 192.

    chopper

    @TenguPhule:

    we’re already 3 months deep into ‘extraordinary measures’. and the trump guys couldn’t pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

  194. 194.

    Aleta

    @Mike in DC:
    No legal knowledge but:

    Destruction of evidence (after being instructed to preserve emails related to Comey firing)
    Made false or misleading statements to employees of the United States
    Tried to misuse the FBI and NSA (by directing their head officers to make false statements to the press)
    Interference with operations of the FBI and Justice Dept.

    (Probably has illegally provided information to help Jared, Ivanka, Flynn avoid being charged)
    (Probably failed to act when his subordinates committed crimes.)

  196. 196.

    Kay

    @catclub:

    Remember “Judge Starr”? Conservatives loved that. Judge Starr.

    I had to drop out during Lewinsky. I couldn’t stand it anymore. I planted a ridiculously huge vegetable garden so I had to farm it like 4 hours a day. We had two kids and I was growing enough to feed an army. Hard physical labor was the only cure for that shit show.

  197. 197.

    TenguPhule

    @catclub: But you have to rememeber, these boobs will screw anything up.

    I have zero confidence they would be able to do any of the possible options in a professional fashion that doesn’t threaten the trust in the full faith and credit of the US government.

  198. 198.

    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot

    @Immanentize: I have read this entire thread. I am dead certain.

    It’s beyond sad to think about in regards to Trump and the Republican-controlled Congress, but that’s the way it is.

  199. 199.

    D58826

    @catclub: a much easier solution – just repeal the debt limit law. But the down side would be that all of the folks up in the nose bleed section would be deprived of the periodic kabuki dance of raising the limit. Just think of the elaborate costumes, the dancing on the head of a pin, the beautiful gymnastics to explain what was the crime of the century when the other guy was in the WH is now an act that deserves sainthood when your guy is in 1600 Pa. Ave.
    And this is one of the few things in DC where both sides really DO DO IT. :-)

  201. 201.

    TenguPhule

    @chopper: Those are the ordinary extraordinary measures that Treasury got very experienced with in the Obama Administration.

    The ones Manchin is contemplating are a completely different animal. They’ve been discussed here and there but never actually done before, because every time before Congress managed to stop being stupidly insane and cough up the money.

  203. 203.

    Mnemosyne

    @germy:

    While Putin said the U.S. is not the enemy of Russia, he also came as close as he ever has to admitting the country’s attempts to meddle in the 2016 U.S. elections, reportedly saying, “They meddle in all other countries affairs, what did they expect?”

    I can’t help remembering that one of our unlamented banned trolls with a head stuffed full of Russian propaganda insisted that the CIA had staged the coup in Ukraine in concert with neo-Nazis.

    If that’s what Putin actually believes, then he probably considers his actions of the last couple of years to be payback for what he thinks the US did.

    I can’t really be mad at Putin, though — it’s not his responsibility to prop up our democracy.

  204. 204.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @sherparick: Worth noting that Donald Trump is a sicon of this same social class, so that showes us their level of stragic thinking.

  205. 205.

    jonas

    @Mustang Bobby: Well, one of the Shitgibbon’s old buddies back in the day was Roy Cohn, so he knows from witchhunts. He can dish out all the “lock her up” bullshit, but he can’t take it. And the chances of him being the one locked up before all this is over just went up.

  208. 208.

    Kay

    @catclub:

    I feel bad about Lewinsky because I didn’t consider her at all during that. It seemed like a frenzy and so gross and fake and I somehow forgot there was this REALLY young woman caught in it. I cannot imagine how horrible that must have been for her and I’m ashamed I didn’t see it- didn’t see HER. If I ever met her I would apologize. I had no sympathy for Bill Clinton but I should have had sympathy for Lewinsky. It was horrible what we did to her, all of us, the whole country.

    My daughter is older now than she was then. Just the onslaught of all those people looking at her and making jokes and following her around. I don’t know how she survived.

  209. 209.

    Mnemosyne

    @Kay:

    One of G’s favorite relaxing TV shows is a reality show called “The Profit” where a billionaire goes around investing money into failing small businesses to try and revive them. It’s actually a pretty interesting show and the billionaire seems to be an ethical guy.

    On one of the shows, he found out that the owner of the business was under investigation by the Feds and hadn’t told him before they started negotiations. He could not jet out of that guy’s office fast enough. ? It was almost literally, Federal investigation? See ya!

  210. 210.

    Mike in DC

    Ken Starr contemplated indicting Clinton (after impeachment failed) and believed he could, based upon the Paula Jones precedent.
    The caveat is that you can’t hold the trial until after the President is out of office. But an indictment might be necessary to preserve the statute of limitations, for example.

  211. 211.

    D58826

    @Kay: OH yes I do remember the moral rectitude of (Hoping for a SCOTUS appointment) Judge Starr. Wonder what ever happened to him. OH that’s right he ended up covering up for the rapists in the Baylor football program. Well every one makes a little mistake now and then when it comes to sex.

    And lets not forget that one of the assistant prosecutors in the Starr Court Chamber was a tall guy, name of James Comey!!! What a small world. He was also involved in the investigation of the Mark Rich pardon by Clinton in 2001. Even people of impeccable integrity have blind spots and the Clintons are Comey’s. All other explanations aside I think that goes a long way to explaining what he did last July and then again in Oct. Three times he failed to get a Clinton in a criminal net but he sure could stab Hillary in the back and tilt the election. Just like he dropped a few comments last week about former AG Lynch which launched the GOP blood hounds on thee-mail trail again.

  212. 212.

    TenguPhule

    @Gravenstone:

    “As was pointed out on Maddow last night, if it is a criminal investigation then the controlling precedent is Nixon. Trump won’t win that one.”

    We have five justices on the SC who think precedent means whatever the hell they want it to mean.

  214. 214.

    germy

    @Mnemosyne:

    I can’t really be mad at Putin, though — it’s not his responsibility to prop up our democracy.

    True, but I watched the clip from the link I provided. The audience laughs when he offers asylum to Comey. He’s trolling us.

  215. 215.

    D58826

    @Kay: Yep. Even Paula Jones deserves a drop of sympathy. Whatever Bill did or didn’t do to her, the GOP paraded her around like the Stanley Cup. Face lift, best parties, open door to all of the GOOPER movers and shakers. And when the entire Jones piece of the ‘scandal’ was replaced by Monica, she was dropped in the mud like a month old rotten fish. Paula WHO!!!!!. never heard of her. Obviously Paula is a bit different than Monica because Paula seem to relish the whole thing as long as the grift was flowing. Monica was dragged into it by her ‘friend’ Linda Tripp. Now Linda Tripp and Lucianne Goldberg are two people I would pay good money to see tarred and feathered and then ridden out of town stark naked on a rail.

  216. 216.

    chopper

    @TenguPhule:

    my question is, why is manchin contemplating additional extraordinary measures for the treasury? isn’t that the treasury department’s job?

  218. 218.

    germy

    Monica Lewinsky, Linda Tripp Movie Goes to Amazon | Variety
    variety.com/2017/film/news/monica-lewinsky-linda-tripp-movie-amazon-1202454458/
    Jun 5, 2017 – Amazon Studios has landed “Linda and Monica” — a movie about the relationship between Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp.

  222. 222.

    trollhattan

    Nancy SMASH is having none of Mrs. Greenspan’s nonsense.

    House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) on Thursday suggested that Fox News contributor Newt Gingrich was no longer relevant after he attacked the credibility of Special Counsel Robert Mueller.

    Last month, Gingrich praised Mueller’s appointment, noting that the former FBI director had an “impeccable” reputation for “honesty and integrity.” But Gingrich changed his tune after the news broke that Mueller is interviewing witnesses for a possible obstruction of justice case against President Donald Trump.

    “So what? Who cares what he says?” Pelosi said on Thursday after MSNBC host Andrea Mitchell asked her for a reaction.

    “The fact is, what we really need is an outside independent commission,” she added. “Right now, we have Mueller who is highly respected. When you respect somebody for their objectivity in law enforcement it doesn’t change. Obviously, Newt is being the political Newt that he always is.”

  223. 223.

    D58826

    @chopper: What are the additional measures? I figured he would just use the same tools that Obama’s Treasury dept. used. Now this is one area where I think the D’s should be the ADULTS in the room. Provide the votes for a clean debt limit increase. Now if in a few quietly arranged backroom deals they can get a few concessions from the R’s then good for Schumer and Nancy but no 11th hour drama like 2011.

  224. 224.

    trollhattan

    @D58826: If you skip the stark naked (shudder) part I’m all in. Add Lucianne’s privileged asswipe of a son for the tarred trifecta.

  225. 225.

    Mnemosyne

    @D58826:

    I agree — I think the simplest explanation for Comey’s actions during the run-up to the election is that he hates the Clintons and didn’t bother to think through the consequences of his actions.

    Like so many Hillary haters, he’s only now realizing exactly what he enabled when he decided he wanted Anyone But Hillary to win the election.

  226. 226.

    Peale

    @trollhattan: “Obviously, Newt is being the political Newt that he always is.”

    I don’t think that second newt is supposed to be capitalized.

  228. 228.

    D58826

    @trollhattan: special counsel for the criminal aspects and independent commission to develop plans and policies to prevent the hacking from happening again. In the end the commission’s work would require legislative action at both the federal and state levels. Two closely parallel tracks in which the commission would have access to Mueller’s investigative data but not in the criminal investigation business.

  229. 229.

    Mnemosyne

    @germy:

    Monica Lewinsky trusted the wrong person and has spent the last 25 years paying for that mistake. IIRC, she moved to England in the early 2000s to get a graduate degree and has lived there ever since.

  230. 230.

    chopper

    @D58826:

    dunno. the standard ones i know of involve moving money around the budget to temporarily cover bonds and dipping into stuff like the G fund and the federal pension fund. i kinda don’t want to know what crazier shit guys like mnuchin have in mind.

  232. 232.

    TenguPhule

    @D58826: The $1 Trillion platinum coin, the 100 year bonds, the “fuck the debt ceiling, Congress already authorized the spending” and a few others.

    Again, what President Obama’s Treasury Dept did was accounting tricks to keep the bills paid on time until the rest of the money was authorized

    What Treasury might have to resort to this time is completely different. Basically, what all these new options do is infringe on the power of the purse, in theory at least. They’ve been considered academic exercises, but never ever tried before.

  233. 233.

    D58826

    @chopper: ‘know what crazier shit guys like mnuchin have in mind.’ I suspect Putin or the King of SA have a few trillions laying about in a vault. Surely Der Fuhrer could call in a few favors.

  234. 234.

    Kay

    @D58826:

    “Monica was dragged into it by her ‘friend’ Linda Tripp. Now Linda Tripp and Lucianne Goldberg are two people I would pay good money to see tarred and feathered and then ridden out of town stark naked on a rail.”

    I was driving around barefoot at Lewinsky’s age, doing ALL KINDS of dumb things. I don’t know why I didn’t think about her at all. I felt like “an adult” by then. I had little kids and was really busy and serious. Maybe I was too close to being that young and dumb so wasn’t comfortable sympathizing with her- not yet secure in my own “adulthood” enough to cut her some slack.

    I teared up when I heard part of her Ted talk. It just hit me all at once-what we did to her. It’s shameful.

  237. 237.

    germy

    On Friday, McConnell reportedly “delivered a private warning to his Senate Republicans: If they failed to pass legislation unwinding the Affordable Care Act, Democrats could regain power and establish a single-payer health-care system.”

    History may record a certain irony if this is the argument McConnell uses to successfully destroy Obamacare. In recent conversations with Democrats and industry observers, I’ve become convinced that just the opposite is true: If Republicans unwind Obamacare and pass their bill, then Democrats are much likelier to establish a single-payer health care system — or at least the beginnings of one — when they regain power.

    “I will tell you,” says Len Nichols, director of the Center for Health Policy Research and Ethics at George Mason University, “Democratic politicians I never thought would utter the words have mentioned single-payer to me in a non-joking way of late.”

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/15/15787626/mitch-mcconnell-single-payer-medicare-all

  238. 238.

    D58826

    @Kay: And a number of other people, mostly every day small business folks – accountants, real estate agents, etc – had their live turned upside down by the vultures on the Starr Chamber Court. Obviously not as public ally as Monica but still ruined in their local communities. The modern GOP gives the German SS a run for it’s money in being the most despicable people on earth. The GOP just doesn’t have the body count that the SS does.

  239. 239.

    Kay

    Carl Paladino sues Buffalo school board members trying to remove him, saying he was targeted for his racist comments

    I laughed out loud. Those black parents in Buffalo have to have a racist school board member or the racist’s rights are being violated.
    “What do you bring to the school board?” “Nothing. In fact, I’m a racist and most of these school kids are black. Tough luck,, kids. My rights are paramount. Stop bullying me”

  240. 240.

    Roger Moore

    @TenguPhule:
    A quick check on Wikipedia says that the F-15 is no longer being purchased by the USAF, but it’s still in production for sale to select foreign governments. FWIW, it was the F-14 we sold to Iran, not the F-15. It’s not obvious why we sold them the F-14 instead of the F-15, since the F-14 was designed for use off carriers, but they were apparently very effective in the Iran/Iraq War.

  241. 241.

    rikyrah

    @TenguPhule:

    They would literally be risking their career and life, perhaps even the lives of their families. When you come at the King, you better not miss.

    You are right. Which is why Bobby Three Sticks has assembled the team that he has.

  243. 243.

    Kay

    @D58826:

    It was awful. It’s wild to think back on the Clinton years. They dusted for Hillary Clinton’s fingerprints on files. Remember that?

    This is clearly important and relevant evidence,” said Michael Chertoff, the counsel for the committee’s Republicans. “It clearly means she touched these records at some point in time.”

    “Clearly” is to me a red flag when lawyers say it. It’s intended to make you stop thinking but it’s such an obvious ruse. I always respect the people who use it less. I had a judge say once ‘if it’s ‘clear’ then you don’t have to tell me it’s clear- that’s what “clear” means” :)

  244. 244.

    D58826

    ‘
    new report from Bloomberg this week reveals that Russian cyberattackers were much more involved in the US presidential election than previously publicized. These findings suggest that Russian hackers tried to change electoral data at local and state levels. CNN reached out to Michael Sulmeyer, director of the Belfer Center’s Cyber Security Project at the Harvard Kennedy School, for his take on what the Bloomberg report reveals about the deeper vulnerabilities in the our electoral system. The conversation, conducted via email, has been lightly edited for flow.

    CNN: According to the recent Bloomberg report, Russian hackers tried — but failed — to alter data from the US election in 39 states.’

    Well 2018 is coming up so if at first you don’t succeed there is always another election. The key reason for that commission.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/15/politics/russia-hacking-election/

  245. 245.

    D58826

    @Kay: Yep. I had forgotten about Chertoff. He got his promotion in the 43 administration.
    If they could have gotten away with it they would have criminalized the simple act of having breakfast.

    And all three branches of government were corrupted. It was a three judge panel of conservative GOP Hillary haters who authorized every thing that Starr did. The rule of law was totally trashed just to get the Clintons by ant means necessary. And the sad thing about it is all of the branches within the overall Whitewater scandal – travelgate, filegate etc where nothing burgers in terms of any kind of wrong doing. Yes Hillary dumping the long serving WH travel office was a cheap move but it wasn’t a crime. They served at the pleasure of the President.

    Which doesn’t mean that if Bill had shown up on my door step after the Monica story broke I would have hit him several times upside the head with a 4×8. I would also have contributed to the collection of veggies if they had put him in the stocks on the WH lawn. A good old colonial punishment.

  246. 246.

    Mnemosyne

    @D58826:

    Probably the second most underreported story of 2016 (next to voter suppression) was that the DNC hack was used against Democrats in House races all across the country. There’s been some minor reporting on it, but the MSM doesn’t want to accept that the Republicans won because they cheated.

  247. 247.

    Roger Moore

    @chopper:

    i kinda don’t want to know what crazier shit guys like mnuchin have in mind.

    My guess is the first thing they’ll do is prioritizing some payments above others, i.e. selective default. Payments to things like the Social Security trust fund and federal pensions will be put off on the principle that they can be made up later and the feds won’t sue themselves over non-payment.

  250. 250.

    rikyrah

    @Mnemosyne:

    @D58826:

    Probably the second most underreported story of 2016 (next to voter suppression) was that the DNC hack was used against Democrats in House races all across the country. There’s been some minor reporting on it, but the MSM doesn’t want to accept that the Republicans won because they cheated.

    Kay keeps on bringing it up, and she’s absolutely right.

  251. 251.

    Mnemosyne

    @D58826:

    Yes Hillary dumping the long serving WH travel office was a cheap move but it wasn’t a crime.

    The long-serving head of the White House Travel Office was caught embezzling funds. I’m not kidding.

    The Clintons tried to fire the guy for cause and had to back down because Sam Donaldson freaked the fuck out. They eventually agreed to let the guy return the money he’d stolen and quietly retire rather than be fired and prosecuted.

    Seriously. Look it up.

  252. 252.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?

    @germy:

    Speaking at his annual question-and-answer session in Moscow, Putin compared Comey to Edward Snowden and called him a “civil activist” before making his offer of asylum.

    Well, I’d like to see Trump’s reaction to his buddy stabbing him in the back

  253. 253.

    randy khan

    @ruckus:

    Didn’t remember the old chestnut, “Never overestimate your enemies.”
    Did you?

    I thought my initial estimate was pretty low, but apparently not low enough.

  254. 254.

    randy khan

    @LongHairedWeirdo:

    One of the . . . interesting . . . things about the Republican talking points is that they argue that going after obstruction means there isn’t an underlying crime. In practice, though, obstruction charges are one of the ways in to finding out about the underlying crimes. If you have people for obstruction, it makes them more willing to try to deal on the other stuff.

  256. 256.

    trollhattan

    Area woman with communications job claims Tweets aren’t communication.

    White House Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said on Thursday that she was forbidden from discussing things that President Donald Trump has written on Twitter.

    In a tweet on Thursday morning, Trump accused Special Counsel Robert Mueller of conducting a “witch hunt” after news reports suggested that the president may be under investigation for obstruction of justice.

    The White House declined to provide an on-camera briefing to reporters, but Sanders took questions for 18 minutes off camera Thursday afternoon.

    When she was asked to discuss the president’s tweet, the deputy press secretary reportedly said that she couldn’t because “I’m not the president.”

    Sanders was also asked if the president had faith in Mueller. “I believe so,” she replied.

  257. 257.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?

    @Kay:

    “What do you bring to the school board?” “Nothing. In fact, I’m a racist and most of these school kids are black. Tough luck,, kids. My rights are paramount. Stop bullying me”

    I laughed out when I read this too. It sounds ridiculous on its face

  258. 258.

    Roger Moore

    @Peale:

    Why the hell does he even want to be on the board if he hates the kids?

    Because it’s not enough to hate the kids; he wants to be able to do awful things to them.

  259. 259.

    Peale

    @Mnemosyne: Yep. Because the guy actually booked press corp travel as well.

    The White House barber, on the other hand, well, he had been there for 50 years. I don’t think anyone ever accused him of embezzling hair. But all the press loved their barber, and decided that Bill had the wrong hair for Washington. That’s really why they made up the hairgate story. He had replaced that staff barber, so they just made up a story that his haircut caused LAX to shut down for two hours. Honestly, people with severe adjustment disorders handle change better than the insider press corps. I wonder if any of them had stable, nurturing parents.

  260. 260.

    D58826

    @Mnemosyne: I don’t remember that part. Having a normal life I didn’t keep track of every last OUTRAGOUS WORST CRIME SINCE CAIN AND ABLE detail. Can you imagine following that story with the Internet and blogs like we have today?

    Even w/o the embezzling dumping the staff was a petty thing to do. But they did serve at the pleasure of POTUS so it was legal. And Der Fuhrer has dumped a few long serve WH staff members all w/o any long term fan fair or calls to get Ken Starr out of moth balls. And I seriously doubt Mueller gives a rats rump about it

  261. 261.

    Mnemosyne

    @D58826:

    Even w/o the embezzling dumping the staff was a petty thing to do.

    The travel office staff enabled the embezzling. They were lucky that all that happened to them was getting fired and not prosecuted.

    If you haven’t read Al Franken’s book Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them, he goes over all this stuff in a fast and entertaining way. The Clintons were destroyed over completely made-up bullshit, and I’m retroactively even more angry about it now that they used the exact same debunked lies to bring down Hillary.

  262. 262.

    D58826

    I love the little twists in the news. The capitol police officer Crystal Griner risked her life to saved Steve Scalise. But if Scalise has his way her marriage will be invalidated. Ms Griner is a lesbian. But that didnot stop her from doing her duty.

  263. 263.

    trollhattan

    @D58826:
    When she was identified yesterday as one of the wounded officers who intervened in the shooting, I wondered how the Republicans and old school military brass trying to keep women out of combat processed the news. Guess I don’t actually wonder, just curious how quickly they waived it off.

  264. 264.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    @randy khan: I know. Or to sing like a canary.

    And I suspect Trump will find that any loyalty to him has vanished the instant he looks vulnerable.

    What’s even funnier is this: if Trump pardons anyone, to prevent them from rolling on him, they then could be compelled to provide truthful testimony. The 5th amendment doesn’t apply when you aren’t putting yourself in legal jeopardy.

  266. 266.

    D58826

    @Mnemosyne: I either totally missed that or forgot about it. What I remember was they were fired so that Hillary could hire her Hollywood TV producer friends. Now even at the time that was obvious nonsensical spin.

    One of the other twists in the ‘scandal’ was the biggest fish that Starr caught was the governor of Arkansas who replaced Bill. From what I remember BILL and Tucker hated each others guts so Starr could not even claim he got a Clinton confederate.

    Seems like there are a couple of Franken books worth reading. I would love to see Franken elected POTUS. He would have the nation in stitches even as he launched the nuclear missiles.

  267. 267.

    The Lodger

    @Kay: Lewinsky couldn’t appear on TV for a year because of a gag order imposed by Starr (or a captive judge, not sure which). As I recall, almost no one had any idea what her voice sounded like. She had a hard time defending herself, which I’m sure was the intent.

  268. 268.

    D58826

    @trollhattan: Since we have had female police officers since forever and some who have died in the line of duty, I suspect that they didn’t really notice it. Women in combat is still kind of new. Police Woman isn’t. Now the GAY part probably raised a few hackles. But it all still falls into the general category of hypocrisy:
    1. Scalise was saved by a married lesbian
    2. Scalise is getting the best medical care that the country can provide and paid for by many of the same taxpayers that he voted to take medical coverage away from
    3. Cong. Burton of Texas had his son at the game. Fortunately he wasn’t hurt but I suspect that if he suffers any emotional trauma he will get the best counseling available, unlike the kids who are about to be kicked off of their medical plans – Obamacare and employer based. and
    4. The Critters want to enhance their own security to protect them from the nuts with guns that they have voted to allow. I saw an article my a retired naval man on the issue of gun control. The bottom line was he believed that properly trained and vetted good people should have guns but the idea that a good man with a gun will stop a bad man with a gun is nuts. What is more likely to happen is the good man will accidentally shoot innocent bystanders and the bad man will get away.

  269. 269.

    The Moar You Know

    Because it’s not enough to hate the kids; he wants to be able to do awful things to them.

    @Roger Moore: We’ve got one of those on our school board, another who hates teachers but not kids, and one trying to get on to kick-start her failing career as a GOP politician – if you can’t get a nod from the GOP when your resume is 100% putting black kids in jail in Philly, you probably never will and are a failure at life to boot.

  270. 270.

    D58826

    @The Lodger: another Starr which hunt involved Kathleen Willey. I have no idea if Clinton groped her or not. She was shopping a book so that makes me a bit suspicious. Starr gave her an immunity deal to testify about what Clinton may have done. Prosecutors aren’t stupid – if I give you an immunity deal and I catch you lying your butt is mine. Well she got caught lying. Starr didn’t want to burn his main wetness so he gave her another deal. At some point her corroborating witness flipped and recanted her testimony. Again I have no idea why. Maybe the Clintons got to her, who knows. But the full weight of the federal government came down on this woman and she was charged with perjury and obstruction if I remember correctly. I think she was acquitted but she ran up huge legal fees. And that seemed like the pattern with the entire witch hunt. Little people on the edge of the entire thing were hounded to turn states evidence and when they could not produce any incriminating evidence they were charged with petty crimes or had a business licenses revoked. I realize that in these types of investigations you start with the small fish and work your way up to the big fish. But if the small fish do not have any evidence to give you don’t persecute (and that’s what it was) them just out of spite. .It was pure petty vengeance because Starr and Comey could not get the two people they were gunning for.

  271. 271.

    catclub

    @D58826: “The Critters want to enhance their own security to protect them from the nuts with guns that they have voted to allow.”
    I wonder why that did not come up after the shooting of Gabby Giffords. Whose ox is gored is all that moves them.

  272. 272.

    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot

    @Immanentize: This is probably getting to be a really dead thread, but I’ll throw one more comment in as a response to you because this is such an important topic.

    Sorry your “more interesting” comment got lost, but the one you replaced it with was certainly worthwhile and well thought-out.

    You are correct in your assessment of how various permutations of “bringing a president before a court of law” would work. It’s the “disputed area” as you put it (how a sitting president can be indicted for anything) that mostly pertains to the whole topic of Russian collusion and Mueller’s current investigation. The question is, can only Congress (via impeachment) prosecute a president, or can “some other (federal – can’t be state) court” bring him up on charges somehow?

    It’s in dispute because there’s never been a criminal case brought against a president outside impeachment, so the question’s still only theoretical.

    I maintain that impeachment will remain the only agreed-upon and duly recognized method of indicting and convicting Trump of anything while he is president for the simple reason that no actually-existing federal prosecutor would even think of attempting to bring charges. And should one really do so (laughably unlikely), who would actually enforce those charges since it’s in dispute that any federal prosecutor even has the authority to bring them?

    Put it this way: what G-Man from what office would believe he has the authority to arrest the president, and which Secret Service officers would accept that he does and let him? Not happening. It’s Congress or nothing, which means nothing.

  273. 273.

    ruckus

    @Another Scott
    Politics isn’t real estate.
    Think how well he’s done at real estate. Think how well his family has done at real estate. For dumpf, real estate isn’t real estate.

  274. 274.

    D58826

    @catclub: Has to be the right kind of ox. Just like the amendment in Trumpcare that will let the critters keep their Obamacare

  275. 275.

    Brachiator

    @Mnemosyne:

    They eventually agreed to let the guy return the money he’d stolen and quietly retire rather than be fired and prosecuted.

    Not quite:

    Former Travel Office Director Billy Dale was indicted by a federal grand jury on December 7, 1994, on two counts of embezzlement and criminal conversion, charged with wrongfully depositing into his own bank account $68,000 in checks from media organizations traveling with the president during the period between 1988 and 1991. He faced up to 20 years in prison if convicted….

    The jury acquitted Dale of both charges on November 16, 1995, following less than two hours of deliberations.

    You’re right that Sam Donaldson, and LA Times Washington Bureau Chief freaked out. They testified as character witnesses on Dale’s behalf.

    Looking back, it is interesting to see how this mess reveals what a strange, mean, petty little place the Village (the DC of the political class and media) really is. Reporters had a cozy relationship with the Travel Office and thought that the Clintons were hicks who had no right to come in and change the way things operated. On top of this, die hard Clinton enemies used this as an opportunity to pile on.

    @D58826:

    What I remember was they were fired so that Hillary could hire her Hollywood TV producer friends. Now even at the time that was obvious nonsensical spin.

    Actually, there was some truth to this, but it was blown out of proportion.

  276. 276.

    ? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot: If Trump committed a crime and won’t be brought to a court for it, then what’s the point of the rule of law? Why should I follow any laws if Trump can’t be held accountable when he breaks them? What a sham

  277. 277.

    ruckus

    @O. Felix Culpa: I lived in Topanga Canyon for a year, at a friend’s house in 12 and we could only get dsl and had no cell signal at all. It is a rather snooty place, between Encino and PCH/Malibu and no cable/internet/cell provider thought there was enough money to bother. It ain’t just the rural areas.

  278. 278.

    D58826

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    I maintain that impeachment will remain the only agreed-upon and duly recognized method of indicting and convicting Trump of anything while he is president for the simple reason that no actually-existing federal prosecutor would even think of attempting to bring charges.

    Will star by saing not a lawyer. But everything I have read says the impeachment is not meant to be a criminal proceeding. The constitution says .The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.. So bribery and treason are stand alone criminal acts. ‘High Crimes and Misdemeanors’ is an English common law hold over that is meant to meant to apply to abuse of political power or other non-specific abuses against the state. Upon conviction the individual shall be removed from office. it doesn’t say any thing about imprisonment. So the take during the Clinton impeachment was he could be convicted and remove from office for obstruction of justice. The standard of evidence was simply a majority in the house and 67 votes in the Senate. There was no mention of beyond a reasonable doubt as in a criminal case. I believe it was Jerry Ford who said an impeachable offense was what ever the majority of Congress said it was. Sort of like the Grand Jury that can indict a ham sandwich. Congress can impeach and vote to convict because they don’t like the Presidents choice of music. Now if they do impeach for bribery or treason or obstruction, a prosecutor can still bring criminal charges after the POTUS is removed from office. In that setting he would have to meet the beyond a reasonable doubt standard. Unless there is something specifically alleged in the impeachment there is no criminal or civil equivalent to High Crimes and Misdemeanors’

    Now that is my understanding from the Clinton days and more recent comments.

  279. 279.

    TenguPhule

    @? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?:

    If Trump committed a crime and won’t be brought to a court for it, then what’s the point of the rule of law?

    Shhh! You’re not supposed to be asking difficult to answer questions like that here! What are you, some kind of believer in Democracy?

  280. 280.

    ruckus

    @TenguPhule:
    Also China.
    The question you should be asking is, ” Who don’t we sell military equipment to?” The list may be shorter.

  281. 281.

    D58826

    @? ?? Goku (aka Junior G-Man) ? ?: Impeachment is a political act. Once Trump is removed from office either via impeachment, resignation or loss at the polls he is subject to the same criminal law that you and I are. Obviously there are the usual things like statute of limitations and proof beyond a reasonable doubt that have to be adhered to . Since there is no case law that I have seen referenced in the recent articles it seems like an open debate about when the statute of limits runs. So if there is a 5 year statute of limitation and Trump committed a crime in the first year of his eight year term, does the statute start to run when the crime is actually committed or when he leaves office and is a subject to the usual criminal laws as a private citizen. Obviously if he committed the crime in year 1 and was removed from office in year 2 the statute of limitations would not apply and he would be in, as they have been saying for the past few weeks, legal jeopardy.

  282. 282.

    D58826

    @ruckus: well no one ever offered to sell me a B52 and I so wanted real one, not some silly plastic one, as a kid.

  284. 284.

    Amir Khalid

    @TenguPhule:
    The F-16 wasn’t a replacement for the F-15. They occupy different niches in military aviation. The F-15 is a large (for a fighter) and expensive plane with all the air-superiority trimmings; the F-16 is a smaller, more basic plane that’s cheaper to build in quantity. Think of the difference between Strats and Teles, or (a more apt comparison) the intended difference between F-22s and F-35s.

  285. 285.

    Architeuthis

    @Peale:

    Why the hell does he even want to be on the board if he hates the kids?

    ‘Cause he’s a typical Republican grifter- he wants to privatize as much of the school system as he can, especially if public funds can be diverted into private hands. (See: charter schools.)

    He’s also a homophobe who owns the building containing Buffalo’s biggest gay nightclub. I seem to remember him suggesting the demolition of low-income housing to be replaced with a shiny new football stadium (doubtlessly at taxpayer expense). He’s a loathsome individual in general.

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