Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

No one could have predicted…

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

The willow is too close to the house.

This fight is for everything.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

The GOP is a fucking disgrace.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

Ah, the different things are different argument.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Late Night Open Thread: Head-to-Head, Tip-to-Tip

Late Night Open Thread: Head-to-Head, Tip-to-Tip

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Be afraid, Alaska! Be very afraid!

Julia Ioffe, ex-Russian emigre, reminds us:

Reader Interactions

86Comments

  1. 1.

    Adam L Silverman

    Putin likes to keep these bilateral meetings small. This way if there is a leak before he decides to selectively leak he has a better chance of identifying it. By limiting the meeting to Principals plus 3, which is what this is it means that the US has already made the first concession: number of participants in the meeting. That being said the US plus 3 tomorrow should be LTG McMaster, his Senior Director for Russia and Eurasian Affairs Dr. Fiona Hill (I know Fiona, not well, but we’ve met – she’s very, very sharp. The right person for this billet regardless of who is president and regardless of the president’s party), and Secretary Tillerson. I would expect on the Russian side that one of the plus 3 will be Foreign Minister Lavrov. I have no idea who the other two will be.

  2. 2.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Forty-nine states, here we come.

    And completely OT: Yes, I am watching The Princess Bride for the second time tonight. Because I can. Don’t judge me.

  3. 3.

    trollhattan

    What’s this Late Night Widnes, Sun’s up for more than an hour yet and it’s too damn hot to be out until then.

  8. 8.

    Mike in NC

    Since wingnuts have demonized Nancy Pelosi since forever, Trump might gift Putin with the Golden Gate bridge, and maybe even offer to have it moved to Moscow free of charge.

  10. 10.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @MomSense: I looked at the list of posts, saw no new post, and wrote mine. Anne Laurie is a whiz at this and completed hers before I knew what happened. I’ve rescheduled mine for later, although there is significant overlap with this one.

  11. 11.

    efgoldman

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I would expect on the Russian side that one of the plus 3 will be Foreign Minister Lavrov. I have no idea who the other two will be.

    Does that include translators? Wasn’t that part if the idiocy last time, that the only translators were Russians?

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I am watching The Princess Bride for the second time tonight.

    Only two?

  13. 13.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @efgoldman: AMC is only showing it twice. I could always pop in the DVD if I need more.

    @Cheryl Rofer: I live in hope for the day that a FPer suggests that the commenter was hallucinating and that no such post ever existed. Ergot and/or mushroom related remarks would be a bonus.

  15. 15.

    Major Major Major Major

    Rare Gray Wolf Pups Born in California

    A rare gray wolf couple new to California have mated, producing at least three pups this year, officials say, and establishing the second pack of the endangered species in the state.

    State biologists made the discovery after capturing the female gray wolf in Lassen County in late June and fitting a tracking collar on her.

    (w/ pictures)

  16. 16.

    Anne Laurie

    @Cheryl Rofer: You’re much more expert at this, so please never hesitate to push one of my posts down!

    On the other hand, this way everybody can wander as far off-topic as they like here, and then go be serious & constructive in your post…

  18. 18.

    Another Scott

    @Cheryl Rofer: That’s the way I read it, and it would fit with Donnie’s (and Tillerson’s) behavior in the past. The “professionals” and the “experts” are “a bunch of idiots” who “gave away” everything because they were “terrible negotiators”. Donnie will come home with so many “wins” that we’ll be “sick” of all the “winning”.

    Remember?

    (sigh)

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (Who wouldn’t be at all surprised if Kim has another present in store for Donnie in the next day or so.)

  20. 20.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Cheryl Rofer: All the reporting I’ve seen has indicated principals plus 3. Hill is fluent in Russian, so she can always do double duty as the interpreter. If it is as you think rather than what I understand we are in even bigger trouble.

  21. 21.

    Mnemosyne

    I have a mosquito bite on my knee that’s driving me crazy. Fucking Southern California mosquitoes. I hope I don’t catch West Nile.

  22. 22.

    efgoldman

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    AMC is only showing it twice.

    I went into the bedroom to talk to mrs efg – and she has Princess Bride on. A kid’s movie that sort of wasn’t really a kid’s movie.

  23. 23.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Another Scott: Yes. There was something of an uproar in NatSec Twitter this morning to urge that Fiona Hill be included, but then the “only Trump and Tillerson” tweets started appearing. Trump makes the best deals. And Hill is female.

    I have other friends who keep saying there’s going to be a North Korean nuke test, or at least anticipating the possibility thereof. The longer we go, the more I suspect they’ve got a design they like, and there won’t be more tests. Their quantities of fissile material are quite limited, and every test uses some up irretrievably.

  24. 24.

    eclare

    @Timurid: Best comment, I guess that is why he is not allowed to be alone with any woman except for Mother….

    :::shudder:::

  26. 26.

    Gin & Tonic

    Pedantic point, but a “translator” is someone who reads and rewrites a book, taking his/her sweet time to get it right. The people who do the real-time stuff are “interpreters.”

  28. 28.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Adam L Silverman: Can you give a link? I have not seen that at all.

    And having a principal interpret is a BAD idea. I’ve been in situations like that. Interpreting takes every brain cell and then some. Better to have someone who does it all the time.

  29. 29.

    ? Martin

    I’m betting on Alaska. Trump doesn’t want to have to concede that NK can now hit the US with an ICBM, so by giving Alaska back he solves two problems at once. See, NK can’t reach us now. Problem solved…

  31. 31.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Gin & Tonic: Thanks! I was just thinking of pointing that out. I don’t think it’s pedantic at all. Translation is very different from interpretation. I can do translation, but I am always in awe of interpreters.

  33. 33.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Cheryl Rofer: It was from an interview I saw with Ambassador McFaul earlier this evening. It may be that he was wrong as to what was going to happen tomorrow. Hill isn’t a principal, so having her translate wouldn’t be that big a deal. I’ve been in those situations as well. Someone forgot to make sure the interpreter was on any of the MRAPS or HUMVEES. As a result I was the only person who spoke any Arabic (and I was still nowhere near fluent even after months in Iraq) from the US side at the engagement between the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and the Iraq general who we were meeting with. Good times!

  35. 35.

    ? Martin

    @Cheryl Rofer: That’s my understanding as well. One of my French instructors was a former UN interpreter and would frequently talk about working there. He said there’s really to levels of work being done – one, knowing the language so fluently that you grasp nuance in its use, and knowing it so broadly that when diplomacy is being conducted sometimes with technical or obscure jargon that you can communicate the intent properly. He always commented that the job wouldn’t be so hard if diplomats spoke plainly and directly, but being diplomats, that was pretty much a foreign concept to them. He said it was important to remember everything being said up to that point as the back context could easily influence what was currently being expressed. So yeah, translating and considering policy simultaneously is not going to happen very well. That’s one reason why many leaders that speak foreign languages stick to their native language – it frees them up to think. Putin does speak fluent English after all.

  39. 39.

    SiubhanDuinne

    NBCNews confirms likely only 6 people in room for Friday’s Trump-Putin meeting: Tillerson, Lavrov & translators, per official.

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen information on this one way or the other, but I would venture a strong guess that Putin knows at least enough English to follow a rudimentary conversation. He may not be fluent, but I’ll bet he has basic vocabulary at least. Whereas I doubt that Trump knows any Russian apart from a grateful, dick-tugging “Spasibo.”

  40. 40.

    trollhattan

    @Kraux Pas:
    Probably typed “bidnez” and Samsung took over from there, but you taught me something so it’s all for the better.

  41. 41.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Adam L Silverman: True; Hill is not a principal in the sense of Secretary of State or President. But the point of having her in the meeting, if that is the case, is that she is an expert on Russia. She simply cannot supply that expertise if she is interpreting. There is going to be a lot of subtle jousting going on; it would be hard enough with interpreters. I’ve been in informal meetings where a variety of people worked through a variety of languages, but we were more or less friendly.

    I hope McFaul is right, but I’ve seen him get things wrong on Twitter because he assumes that things will be as they were when he was Ambassador to Russia. That’s not an unreasonable assumption in most of the alternative worlds.

  43. 43.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    AMC is only showing it twice. I could always pop in the DVD if I need more.

    I’ve never seen The Princess Bride [shame!] but will remedy that this fall when TCM shows it in cinemas as part of their Classic Movies Big Screen series.

  44. 44.

    Another Scott

    @SiubhanDuinne: You sure you want to wait that long? I don’t think you should. (There’s a lot of great stuff in there, so seeing it earlier won’t spoil it on the big screen (I don’t think).)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  46. 46.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Putin has been learning English. I saw a comment today that he is almost fluent. That is a great advantage in a conversation like tomorrow’s, as ? Martin said. When I was a kid, I used to go to the UN. Anyone could sit in the galleries back then. I don’t remember what the meetings were about, but I loved the headphones with the dial for the languages and watching the interpreters in the booth. Like I said, I am in awe of what they do.

  47. 47.

    lamh36

    End of the day musings:

    1) Those 5 days off for 4th, really is still affecting me. I’m not “sleepy” but I def didn’t catch up on as much sleep as I wanted.

    2) During those 5 days, I tried to minimize my online presence on social media…at least 2 of the 5 days I tried to stay off/not post on my social media accounts for at least 24hours. Now that I’m back at routine, I’m finding that I barely go back to review posts I’ve missed…

    3)Hit the ground running with planning the DC trip in October. I think they are coming along nicely. My sisters aren’t used to trips like this, so they are aggravating me with this mad rush they have to book a hotel…but since we will likely be using a sight that requires some deposit, I keep telling them ya want to do your due diligence and make sure you review the hotel before clicking sign me up!

    Anyway, I’m too tried now… So I’ll leave ya with my #TBT (look it up ole people :-) for today. Was clearing out my email cache and found some old pics in my saved emails from 2011.

    Check it out: #TBT April 2011

    ??? Godbaby Maddie

  52. 52.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Another Scott:

    It probably won’t, but the way TCM does their Fathom Events, you can see a film on Sunday afternoon, Sunday evening, the following Wednesday afternoon, and Wednesday evening. My plan for TPB is to go to the Sunday matinee, and then if I feel the need for a rewatch, I’ll still have three additional options.

    The following month (November) the film is Casablanca, and I love it so much I have actually already put aside money for tickets for all four screenings. Have seen it on TV and VHS/DVD probably 40-50 times over the years, but only once on the big screen, and that was a good 15-20 years ago. Every time I see it I get something new.

  53. 53.

    Betty Cracker

    Here’s what CBS News says about who will be in the room for the Trump-Putin meeting:

    President Trump is slated to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin at the G-20 summit Friday in Hamburg, Germany, marking the first time the two leaders will see each other face-to-face since Mr. Trump took office in January.

    But there won’t be many witnesses to the encounter. In addition to Mr. Trump and Putin, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov will also be present, the White House confirmed to CBS News. Lavrov speaks fluent English, but both sides will have their respective translators present.

    They’ll get rolled so hard.

  54. 54.

    Another Scott

    @Cheryl Rofer: That reminds me of this:

    […]

    Slang and metaphors are common travails of translators. Van Reigersberg, who is an interpreter herself, remembered a metaphor change that had nations snarling at each other.

    “At the U.N., an interpreter changed a metaphor in Russian to ‘Something is rotten in the state of Denmark,’ and the Danish delegate asked for right of reply and said he resented the Soviet Union taking his country’s name in vain. The Dane didn’t realize this was a quote from Hamlet. Someone finally explained it to him and he said, ‘I’m sorry. I didn’t know.’ ”

    Because of incidents like this one, Van Reigersberg advises her interpreters to explain metaphors, not change them. If Reagan should talk about punting, the interpreter should say, ” ‘It’s time to kick’ and explain very quickly this is a football term that means ‘Get rid of the ball before it gets taken away from you.’ ” Interpreters, she said, learn to “put the cart before the horse in six languages.”

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  55. 55.

    kindness

    How is it that they didn’t make Pence & co put on clean room garments if they are going to go into a clean room for a look see. It isn’t much of a clean room after a bunch of men in suites walk through and touch everything. I can just imagine the freak out the building management people had seeing they are going to have to sterilize the room from top to bottom now.

  58. 58.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Another Scott: I was giving the welcome speech to a meeting and planned to do a small part of it in Estonian, so I went to the interpreters beforehand and told them what I planned to do, so it wouldn’t confuse them too badly, particularly since my Estonian pronounciation was not up to native standards. It worked out fine.

  59. 59.

    Another Scott

    @kindness: They didn’t go in a clean room. See the photos here (warning, sneaky autoplay video). You can see the clean room in the back of some of the pictures. Even if they were mockups/test versions, it clearly said “Don’t Touch”.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (Who wonders if Rubio touched it, too.)

  60. 60.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Cheryl Rofer: International protocol gets really weird. Interpreters, who sits where, how one refers to someone else (Herr Schmidt/Herr Doktor Schmidt/Herr Doktor Oberst-leutnant Schmidt) – people seem to care.

    ETA: Oddly, Hans just doesn’t work.

  61. 61.

    opiejeanne

    Did I hear correctly that someone forgot to book a hotel for Trump?

    Off Topic, sorry.
    Today is day 4 of our trip through several red states and the angry energy is oppressive. People in these places have lost their damned minds and we feel as if we have targets on our backs. Deadwood was like a punch in the gut. T-shirts with vile messages and Trump’s face were out in plain sight. The hotel in Sheridan WY, a nice Hilton property, has the local blood-red rag as their free newspaper instead of USA Today.
    We don’t have bumper stickers on our car, no political message clothing and we have avoided interacting with anyone unless we know what their politics are first, and what they’ve said is heartbreaking. The worst was a ranger at a Montana state park who teaches HS history during the school year and has a constant battle with RW parents who don’t want him to teach facts.

  62. 62.

    Vhh

    @efgoldman: The US does not have a lot of Russian translators who are not of Russian background (important for sensitive meetings) and fewer still with the highly technical backgrounds that are sometimes needed. The Russians have heaps of talent, as their scientists and engineers all learn English. I learned about this imbalance back in the 1980s when I got asked to interpret for US-Soviet meetings concerning my physics specialty area. Since that time, enrollment in Russian programs in US universities has declined sharply, and many have closed altogether, leaving the US less prepared to deal with a resurgent Russia. POTUS is playing without a full deck in more than one way.

  63. 63.

    Vhh

    @efgoldman: The US does not have a lot of Russian translators who are not of Russian background (important for sensitive meetings) and fewer still with the highly technical backgrounds that are sometimes needed. The Russians have heaps of talent, as their scientists and engineers all learn English. I learned about this imbalance back in the 1980s when I got asked to interpret for US-Soviet meetings concerning my physics specialty area. Since that time, enrollment in Russian programs in US universities has declined sharply, and many have closed altogether, leaving the US less prepared to deal with a resurgent Russia. POTUS is playing without a full deck in more than one [email protected]Cheryl Rofer: You are right. To do simultaneous translation, you have to turn yourself into a machine. And ordinary interpreters often run into trouble with specialized vocabulary. So team members with both language and content knowledge are very important.

  68. 68.

    Yarrow

    @SiubhanDuinne: The Princess Bride is so good. It’s such a quotable movie you might want to be prepared that people could be talking to the screen in the theater showings when their favorite lines come along. That might be an issue for you since you haven’t seen it before. I could be wrong and no one will do that since it’s a TCM screening but it isn’t inconceivable.

  70. 70.

    Mnemosyne

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Like everyone else said, you’re going to see it and wonder why you waited so long.

    I’m so old I saw it in first run at a theater near the University of Illinois (Shampoo-Urinal, of course).

  74. 74.

    opiejeanne

    @Another Scott: Thanks.
    I was in Wyoming during the W administration and yes, I was aware that it was a red state but it wasn’t like this. A lot of people seem ready for a fight.
    Montana wasn’t too bad and we were impressed by their Symphony Orchestra’s performance before fireworks on the 4th. The orchestra and support staff are paid!. We were only in Idaho for about a minute, although we did see a grandmother driving a car with a bumper sticker offering body piercing by Glock. We know it was her car because of her plates.
    We still like Wyoming and everyone was nice but don’t think much of South Dakota. We visited Mt Rushmore, being tourists and doing touristy things, and thought it was sort of a big nothing; went to Deadwood for fun and visited the #10 Saloon. Tried to visit Wild Bill Hickock’s gravesite but they wanted to charge us for the privilege to enter a public cemetery that seems to still be in use. It was really hot and a long walk up, the hill and we decided it was too hot for us. No one else seemed eager to give them money either.

    Tomorrow Longmire Days begins in Buffalo and we’ll have fun there. On Monday we head to a cabin in Grand Teton and on Wednesday we have a cabin in Yellowstone for a couple of days, near Cody. After that we have no reservations and are trying to decide where we ought to go before heading home.

  77. 77.

    Another Scott

    @opiejeanne: We had a vacation in Yellowstone and Grand Teton a few years ago. Really beautiful and interesting countryside. I got sunburned my first day there. :-/ . We briefly saw a black female wolf trotting along the side of the road before she turned right, peed, and headed off into the trees. The Bison are huge and very interesting. We got caught in a very brief thunderstorm (with hail!) on one of our hikes up one of the Tetons. It’s just so beautiful there.

    We spent a day or two in Jackson Hole at a moderately priced place before we headed home. I don’t know if it was worth it though.

    We want to see Glacier NP before they’re all gone, but it’s kinda in the middle of nowhere.

    We enjoyed our trip to the Black Hills years before that. Not Mt. Rushmore so much as the Crazy Horse mountain, the Mammoth Site, and some time on the Pine Ridge reservation. We were uncomfortable there when we stopped in a small store for gas and a snack, but we thought it was important to see the place for ourselves. Wall Drug was interesting too, but mainly for the spectacle of the place. ;-)

    Gotta run.

    Enjoy!

    ‘night all.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  79. 79.

    Mnemosyne

    I should be packing for our trip to Chicago right now, but I’m being lazy. G much prefers that I’ve started packing several days ahead of time for a trip instead of staying up all night to pack like I used to.

  81. 81.

    Yarrow

    @opiejeanne: I really love Glacier National Park. It’s heartbreaking seeing the photos of the glaciers and how much they’ve receded just in the last few decades.

  82. 82.

    seaboogie

    @opiejeanne: I was talking to a customer today about T-ian backlash against Obama, and the trajectory of progress. We always move forward and higher in the overall arc, but it is also met with resistance and backlash.

    And what I shared with my customer is that how I feel about T now – the rejection and revulsion – is certainly very like what Obama haters felt. Our motivating animus is different (compassion/progress v. hate/fear/resentment), but the feelings re: our leader are very similar.

    There is a much deeper and longer argument to be had around this, but as you are traveling through red states, maybe this is a compassionate thought to keep in mind.

  83. 83.

    opiejeanne

    @seaboogie: Yes, I agree, but this is different from what I felt about W’s presidency. We smile and talk about our kids, our cat, our travels, how this trip is going (two hotels now that have been Not As Advertised) the good stuff we’ve done, We have spotted kindred spirits as well as people so far left (t-shirts) that we’ve avoided contact with them.

    We have no bumper stickers, like I said, but we do have Washington plates and we are driving a Subaru. :-)

  84. 84.

    opiejeanne

    @Yarrow: We took our two girls to Glacier on the train from LA when there were 5 and 9, when they were just talking about bringing wolves back to the park. Had a rental car for the park, an elk jumped over the hood at dusk, buffalo were just wandering around, marmots sat under cars eyeing the hoses for the coolant, mountain goats on the side of a sheer cliff face. It was an amazing trip.

  85. 85.

    SgrAstar

    @lamh36: oooh, that baby is the cutest thing ever! Also too, I use booking.com to arrange hotels- often you don’t need a deposit and you can cancel until a few days before you arrive. Worth checking out. :)

  86. 86.

    Origuy

    @Mnemosyne:

    I keep meaning to read Cary Elwes’ book about the making of the movie.

    Do this soon. The story about shooting the Miracle Max scene is the best part. And his memories of Andre the Giant are touching.

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