Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

The frogs are rarely mistaken.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

Israel is using food as a weapon of war. Unforgivable.

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

They are lying in pursuit of an agenda.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

If you voted for Trump, you don’t get to speak about ethics, morals, or rule of law.

T R E 4 5 O N

Every one of the “Roberts Six” lied to get on the court.

This really is a full service blog.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

This country desperately needs a functioning Fourth Estate.

Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

Let’s show the world that autocracy can be defeated.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

Marge, god is saying you’re stupid.

When do the post office & the dmv weigh in on the wuhan virus?

Elections aren’t won by handwringing, cowering, and/or bashing your own candidates.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Sunday Evening Open Thread: Pictures from An Exhibition(ist)

Sunday Evening Open Thread: Pictures from An Exhibition(ist)

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What’s on the agenda — preferably upbeat — as we wrap up this thoroughly dispiriting weekend?


Peter Savodnik, not a person whose politics I would normally trust, seems to have predicted quite accurately for Vanity Fair:

… The Russian president, who has reason to think big, will know exactly what he wants to get out of this meeting, and he will have thought through the best way to do that. He will have been briefed extensively on Trump’s personality, whims, foibles, outrages, excesses. He will know what Trump craves. What wounds him. What flatters him. What he wants. He will have probably watched a few episodes of The Apprentice, and he will know the tweets. In fact, one expects he will have memorized his favorites—the tweets that offend liberal pieties and members of Congress; the tweets, like winks or nods, that signal a shared belief system—and he will recite those back to the American president. Like Pushkin. He will tell him that if he were president of America he would fire Mika and Joe because she’s old (50!), and they will laugh together. Who wants old? Then he will flatter Melania, which will flatter Trump, who expects heads of state to lavish praise on his many properties, and the Russian president will lean close and say, We make them very nice here, yes? And Trump will nod and chuckle and think, You get me.…

When Putin pivots to business it will not feel like a pivot. It will feel like a continuation of a conversation that Trump is enjoying a great deal. But the Russian president will know what he wants. He will know what is in his best interest. He will want Trump to convey his support for an expanded Russian role abroad, in the Middle East, in central Asia, anywhere but Afghanistan. He would love to make a deal, any deal, anything that communicates to our NATO allies, China, the South Koreans, the Israelis, the Saudis, that America will sleep with anyone these days. And he will want to commiserate with Trump about all the people they both hate: journalists, protesters, Islamic radicals. If one of the Americans brings up the election, he will swat it away, deny everything, make a face that says, How could you jeopardize all this for the sake of some “election” you already won? After the meeting, the Russian president will issue a statement expressing his hope for better relations with the United States, and he will say he looks forward to crushing ISIS together. ISIS is mostly a sideshow, and everyone but Trump knows it, and Putin will exploit that magnificently…

Of course, this is not how the American president will see things. He will tell us he had a marvelous chat with Putin. He will tweet with his usual brio and ineptitude. He will think he is making America safer or richer or greater, and he will be wrong. He will have no idea what he is doing or what is being done—to him, to us—and he will never learn, because this is not a man who learns. He lurches. He proclaims. Anything that displeases him is “fake.” But the Russians will learn. They will fine-tune their approach. They will become even better at orchestrating Trump and his base. They will appear to be our friends, but they will not be, because they are unchanged. The only thing that has changed is our president, who knows not what he does.

Reader Interactions

260Comments

  1. 1.

    aimai

    The look on Putin’s face during the photo op with Trump just said it all. It was like looking at a smug pedophile who knows he is in complete control of his prey.

  3. 3.

    trollhattan

    Now that our Kenyan in Chief is retired Frau Merkel may be my favorite world leader. Confess, however, that I could listen to Nicola Sturgeon all day long. Could read the Dundee phone book for all I care.

  4. 4.

    gene108

    But the Russians will learn. They will fine-tune their approach. They will become even better at orchestrating Trump and his base.

    In all honesty, it is not Trump’s base that is the issue. They are lost causes.

    It is the bullshit that sticks with liberals, who should be strongly backing Democrats as their best hope for change, but would just as happily shiv a Dem, if they were provided with a reason, as a Republican, which concerns me.

    Russians drove a lot of the anti-Democratic bullshit used by the Left, during the 2016 election.

    The release of the DNC emails did not inluence Trump’s base, but it sure as hell insighted Bernie delegates to boo the hell out of Democratic speakers at the DNC convention.

  6. 6.

    bystander

    Of course, this is not how the American president will see things. He will tell us he had a marvelous chat with Putin.

    I’m guessing Trump is going to be noticing the terrible coverage in the States, the marginalization, if not outright rejection, he just experienced at the G20, and that sinking feeling that he’s in hock up to his eyeballs to a ruthless shark. I’m predicting some major lashing out and measures he thinks are punitive against the press and liberals in general.

    The only thing that has changed is our president, who knows not what he does.

    How is this a change?

  7. 7.

    Yarrow

    @gene108:

    Russians drove a lot of the anti-Democratic bullshit used by the Left, during the 2016 election.

    Saw this today and it fits with what some of us have been saying for months. Tad Devine worked in Ukraine with Manafort. Don’t trust him–never did.

    Devine supplied Mueller with records of all Bernie's illegal foreign donations- mostly Russian/Ukrainian- using fake addresses. About $10M— Puesto Loco™ (@PuestoLoco) July 9, 2017

    Don’t know if that claim is actually true but it’s certainly known that Russia played both sides during the election.

  8. 8.

    Bobby Thomson

    @trollhattan: just chatted with a bunch of Scots staying near us and yes, that accent is honey.

    ETA: but of course, as the Staten Island Scot I’m a wee bit biased.

  14. 14.

    Yarrow

    @MisterForkbeard: My take is that the main goal was disruption of our society, country, and elections. They’ve accomplished that. Further to that goal was to damage Hillary and make it difficult for her to govern–hence the hacking of downticket Dem candidates’ emails to disrupt those races. If Hillary had won but was faced with two Republican dominated houses of Congress, it would be harder for her to push forward her agenda. So prop up Trump and attack Hillary and prop up Bernie.

    @Baud: Yeah, its some guy who claims to have insider knowledge. Take with salt. I’ve had a lot of questions about Tad Devine’s role, though, so it wouldn’t surprise me if it were true. We’ll have to see how it turns out going forward.

  15. 15.

    dexwood

    Love the picture at top. Across from him are clusters of people in conversation while Trairor Trump seems isolated and out of his element. He is not used to being ignored.

  16. 16.

    Yarrow

    Finally looked at the gif on the first tweet. Christ, Putin is an insecure fuckwad. The pointing finger, the shifting his weight back and forth, the talking sideways at Merkel. No wonder she rolled her eyes.

  18. 18.

    Mnemosyne

    Double dose of family today — we spent the morning/early afternoon with my mom and brother, and now we’re getting ready to go hang out with G’s family. And I’m getting nervous that the incipient thunderstorm is going to trigger a migraine. Gah.

  20. 20.

    stinger

    I have not loved all Merkel’s policies, but I deeply admire her style around bozo men.

  21. 21.

    stinger

    At least now Princess Snowbilly will be telling the truth when she says she can see Russia from her window.

  23. 23.

    MomSense

    @Yarrow:

    Has the Sanders campaign provided all the documentation requested by the FEC? Several of their campaign filings had thousands of problems with possible foreign contributions and individuals who have in excess of the maximum allowable.

  24. 24.

    trollhattan

    @Bobby Thomson: @BC in Illinois:
    Have some difficulty not wallowing in wondering how the world would have handled Sturgeon, Merkel and Clinton at the helm simultaneously (Too bad about South Korea, but there you go.)

    ETA Leaving out May because reasons.

  25. 25.

    mai naem mobile

    Anybody see the picture of Obama with the adorable baby with the big Sunday chutch hat,at the Anchorage Airport? I miss my old president and am just going to pretend he’s still my president. He told the dad he was going to steal his baby girl. Can you imagine what Trey Gowdy would have done with a statement like that if O was president? They would have had the impeachment papers printed and ready to go.

  26. 26.

    Roger Moore

    @Yarrow:
    We know the Russians have a network set up to send illegal campaign contributions. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they were what kept Bernie afloat after he had no realistic chance of winning the nomination and his donations realistically should have dried up. I don’t think he was actively collaborating with the Russians, but they sure as hell took advantage of his ego for their ends.

  27. 27.

    Baud

    @trollhattan: While I would give anything to have Hillary be president, all the pathologies that led to her defeat would have gone into overdrive if she were president.

    I’m not even all that confident that BJ would not have become a very different place under President Clinton.

  28. 28.

    mai naem mobile

    @debbie: he probably gave Putty Poo a full blow job during the 2 hr meeting. Somebody should have ‘I Only Have Eyes For You’ playing along to the little presser post 2 hour meeting. Disgusting.

  29. 29.

    efgoldman

    @debbie:

    I half-expected Trump to bend over and kiss Putin’s hand.

    Not his hand.

    @MomSense:

    Several of their campaign filings had thousands of problems with possible foreign contributions and individuals who have in excess of the maximum allowable.

    When’s the last time the FEC took serious action against anybody?

  31. 31.

    Millard Filmore

    LGM has a posting about Trump Jr’s meeting with the Russian lawyer last year.

    “Donald Trump Jr. was promised damaging information about Hillary Clinton before agreeing to meet with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer during the 2016 campaign”

    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/07/it-was-you-fredo-2
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/us/politics/trump-russia-kushner-manafort.html?action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=65549760&pgtype=Homepage&_r=0

  34. 34.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    It’s Czar Manbaby’s corruption that will most likely bring him down, but the corruption isn’t what’s doing the most harm to us all, it’s the incompetence and stupidity and psychological defects that are wounding us the worst. This guy can’t go soon enough for me. Pence would be a godsend at this point.

  35. 35.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @MomSense:

    Several of their campaign filings had thousands of problems with possible foreign contributions and individuals who have in excess of the maximum allowable.

    That can’t possibly be true, all their donations were $27 from the grassroots.

  37. 37.

    Yarrow

    @MomSense: I don’t know. I haven’t kept up with it. Wouldn’t surprise me if not, though.

    @Roger Moore: Wouldn’t surprise me if he wasn’t actively colluding with Russia but found out his campaign was involved and then couldn’t get out of it. His massive ego was a godsend for Russia. Easy to manipulate, just like Trump.

  40. 40.

    Tuna

    Assad needs to be sure he got lots of loyal Syrians watching his back. Putin may have given away his oil in exchange for the removal of sanctions.

  44. 44.

    Kathleen

    @Yarrow: I read blogger Joseph Cannon who has followed Republican dirty trickster Roger Stone throughout the years.

    Joseph offered one of Stone’s favorite tactics from a summary of Stone’s unpublished autobiography

    This last is used very, very often by Stone. The fourth, and one of the most effective, is through fragmentation of the vote. There is, say, overwhelming support for candidate A, who will raise the minimum wage, versus candidate B, who won’t. You split this overwhelming vote by funding another candidate, who wants to raise the minimum wage even higher, and who chastises candidate A for compromising their principles and being beholden to business interests for not asking for a higher wage. Through a vote split, candidate B, the one who says he believes the condition of workers must be improved, but not through easy sounding solutions like a higher minimum wage, scores a victory. At the same time, you make great efforts to keep the votes for your own candidate or issue from being fragmented.

    His entire post dated 6-26 and titled Election Fraud (Plus a Personal Note to my Readers) can be viewed at:

    http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2017_06_25_archive.html

  45. 45.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    It would serve Palin right to end up in Russian territory.

    Trump might throw in Hawaii too.

    It would return the USA to its 1950s borders *and* validate Trump’s claim that Obama wasn’t born here.

    If Trump could pull a damnatio memoriae on Obama, he would

  47. 47.

    Roger Moore

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    It’s Czar Manbaby’s corruption that will most likely bring him down, but the corruption isn’t what’s doing the most harm to us all, it’s the incompetence and stupidity and psychological defects that are wounding us the worst.

    I disagree. The thing that’s doing us the most damage is that he’s letting the Republican machine have its way. The destruction of any part of our government that makes any attempt to help the common citizen is far more destructive in the long run, and it’s something we’d get no matter which Republican was in charge.

  48. 48.

    Kathleen

    @efgoldman: I was getting caught up on today’s posts and saw a few threads down that you had to go to the ER the other morning. So sorry to hear that and hope you are feeling better. At least you feel well enough to post here, which I’m very glad to see!

  49. 49.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Roger Moore: How far they’ve fallen since Lincoln and the Radical Republicans. Though to fair, I don’t think I would have fit in much anywhere on the spectrum back in those days. Didn’t 19th century Republicans support laissez faire and Democrats protectionism? Or was it state capitalism?

  50. 50.

    Juice Box

    @bystander: No, he’s confused, he’s bored, he’s exhausted, and he wants to go home. He doesn’t have enough personal insight to realize that he’s in over his head.

  52. 52.

    Frankensteinbeck

    While I understand the need to note the failures of every action Trump takes, I do not understand why this meeting is being treated as a Big Thing. It changes nothing at all. Putin already owned Trump. In person or through intermediaries, he already was telling Trump what to do. I’m sure this meeting felt super-important to Trump, from inside the private fantasy world of a narcissist, but to everyone else it’s just business as usual.

    That business being our president is a corrupt traitor working for a hostile foreign power.

  54. 54.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Baud: it’s an old story that this tweeter is probably conflating.

    For months, the Federal Election Commission has been writing to the Sanders campaign with warnings that hundreds of his donors have exceeded the $2,700 contribution limit and that hundreds more may be foreign nationals illegally giving Sanders money. The most recent, and by far the longest, letter came on Tuesday and flagged more than 1,500 questionable donors.

    The FEC has notified the campaign that thousands of its 2.4 million contributors may be violating federal limits.

    I don’t think Sanders or Devine would openly accept money from the russians. But that doesn’t mean the russians weren’t trying to independently help (for which Muller is investigating russia’s actions). The more important issue is the Sanders campaign as repeatedly notified by the FEC that basic rules on contributions (amounts, citizenship) were violated and Mr Clean Money didn’t care. Which is just further evidence of him being a fraud.

  55. 55.

    WaterGirl

    I had family visiting this weekend. I had been certain that both my sisters had voted for Trump, but even my brother-in-law who voted for Obama voted for Trump. He brought up politics – which I have been staying away from with family in order to keep cordial relations – and he said something that made me wonder if he, too had voted for Trump. I said “you didn’t not for Trump, did you>?”. He replied, “well I certainly wasn’t going to vote for the lying bitch!”.

    I said “so let’s just say for a moment that Hillary is a lying bitch, you thought it was better to vote for the lying sociopathic narcissist who is unstable and sexually assaults women? You thought he would be a better president than the lying bitch?” He said yes, that he thought she was a bigger liar than Trump.

    Doesn’t it bother you that they want to take your medicare away from you? Doesn’t it bother you that they want to take health care away from 23 million people? He said, well, it has passed the house, lets see what the senate does. I said “Trump colluded with the Russians” and he said they haven’t proven that. I said the intelligence community has come out and said they have proof and he said he doesn’t trust the intelligence community. So frustrating, beyond belief.

  59. 59.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: Thanks, Baud. This is someone I have known since I was 13 and have been quite close with over the years. It’s mind-boggling and so utterly disappointing.

  62. 62.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @WaterGirl: No offense, but your brother in law represents everything that is wrong with America. Based on your descriptions, he sounds like an idiot who can’t critically think and can’t connect the dots. Did he seem emotionally invested in Trump?

  64. 64.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: @debbie: How is it possible to have voted for Trump and have no regrets? It’s the Democrat’s fault, you know, for nominating the lying bitch – so there was no better alternative than Trump. He actually said that. This is an intelligent man who pays attention to what is going on in the world – god help us all.

  65. 65.

    WaterGirl

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I posted at 64 before I saw your comment. No, he is otherwise intelligent and engaged. Unlike my sister who is not at all engaged and never even heard the “Grab ’em by the pussy” stuff. She thought the “Pussies against Trump magnet on my fridge was cute and the conversation that ensued made it clear that she thought “Pussies against Trump” was just a cute way of saying “Women against Trump”. Honest to god.

  66. 66.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @WaterGirl: You should have told him he’s ultimately responsible for the people Trump kills, including the Deathcare bill by voting for him. I’m sure that would have went over well.

    Sorry about your family. Mine are luckily anti-Trump, if not super liberal

  69. 69.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Baud: I wouldn’t care either, but he constantly attacked everyone – everyone – for not being clean like him, yet there he was repeatedly violating finance laws.

  70. 70.

    Suzanne

    @WaterGirl: That’s the sort of horrible thing one says when feeling guilty and knows one got caught. NOT MY FAULT, SOME OTHER PEOPLE’S FAULT!

    These are the people I hope get rejected from future polite society.

  71. 71.

    Yarrow

    @WaterGirl:

    It’s the Democrat’s fault, you know, for nominating the lying bitch – so there was no better alternative than Trump. He actually said that.

    That’s straight up misogyny. No question.

  73. 73.

    dmsilev

    Josh Marshall brought up an interesting point, that the NYT story was sourced to five people inside the White House. So, either Trump’s own staff is knifing him in the back (possible but unlikely), or this is the version of the story that they regard as damage control. And if the latter is true, just how bad is the full story that they’re trying to preempt?

  78. 78.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @WaterGirl: I just realized. You should have asked him why Trump fired the FBI Director if he had done nothing wrong

  79. 79.

    p.a.

    from josh marshall

    1. What I suspect is the most important detail in this story is the sources. The Times reports that they got the information from “three advisers to the White House briefed on the meeting and two others with knowledge of it.” They apparently talked after the release of the first story. This is highly, highly significant. Needless to say, advisors to the White House are not in the business of taking highly damaging stories and volunteering new information which makes them catastrophically damaging. The only reason a President’s allies ever do something like that is either to get ahead of something much more damaging or get a first crack at shaping the public understanding of something much more damaging. There’s really no other explanation. We don’t know yet what drove them to volunteer such highly damaging information. Five of them did it. It wasn’t a matter of one person going rogue.

  80. 80.

    Roger Moore

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
    Really, the issues were very different. The Republicans were more pro-industry and to some extent pro-labor, while the Democrats were more laissez faire. In particular, the Democrats represented Southern interests who depended heavily on exports to Europe but also imported a lot of manufactured goods, so they were strongly anti-tariff. The Republicans represented industries that wanted protectionism. But the Republicans were also in favor of more government involvement generally, especially in ways that would lead to western expansion.

    This actually led to one of the less discussed aspects of the Civil War. The Republicans had a whole bunch of legislation they had been eager to pass but had been blocked from acting on by the Democrats both in Congress and the White House. When the South seceded, they finally had full control of the government and were able to put those policies into effect. The result was that they not only managed to run the war but also to pass a huge backlog of stalled legislation: the Homestead Act, the Railroad Act, National Banking Act, Morrill Land Grant Act, set up the Department of Agriculture, etc. The 37th Congress was probably the most productive in history in terms of producing important legislation.

  81. 81.

    Yarrow

    @dmsilev: If the WH folks have any sense they will have lawyered up and are following their advice of counsel. I think the full story is so bad it can hardly be believed.

  84. 84.

    Raoul

    This guy re-did Shel Silverstein’s The Giving Tree as a series of tweets, all based on the execrable pic of Don Jr sitting on that stump in the woods!

    Worth a few mins, IMHO.

    Once there was a Russian tree and she loved a little boy and everyday the boy would come and beg the tree for dirt on Hillary Clinton pic.twitter.com/JLD56c4SNs— thom dunn (@thomdunn) July 9, 2017

  85. 85.

    Yarrow

    @Major Major Major Major: Pence is a traitor and if he becomes president it won’t be for long. What’s hiding in his redacted emails anyway? He was in the room when treason was happening. He knew. The Flynn stuff. He knew. How did he end up as the VP? Manafort recommended and pushed for him. Isn’t that interesting.

  86. 86.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @WaterGirl:

    Doesn’t it bother you that they want to take health care away from 23 million people? He said, well, it has passed the house, lets see what the senate does. I said “Trump colluded with the Russians” and he said they haven’t proven that. I said the intelligence community has come out and said they have proof and he said he doesn’t trust the intelligence community. So frustrating, beyond belief.

    These are the exact rationalizations made by the Bern-Bros. The Susan Sarandons, the RoseAnn DeMoros, the Cornell Wests, the types who get their news from Griftwald. Every day a Bern-Bro on my twitter feed shrieks the Deep State is framing Trump.

  89. 89.

    Roger Moore

    @Baud:
    Yep. I hope the Democrats have a whole shit-ton of legislation they want lined up and ready to pass the next time they control both Houses and the Presidency. The list of things I’d like them to pass is very long. No reason not to work on it in the background now so they’ll have it ready if/when they’re given a chance.

  91. 91.

    schrodingers_cat

    @WaterGirl: Did you counter his BS? RWNJs count on being the loudest and most obnoxious to get their point across and most people let it slide even if they don’t agree. That just makes the RWNJ in question even more obnoxious. They need either a push back or a social boycott. Like most bullies they do back down when someone stands up to them.

  92. 92.

    Baud

    @Roger Moore:

    No reason not to work on it in the background now so they’ll have it ready if/when they’re given a chance.

    Yes there is. Lack of unity.

  93. 93.

    debbie

    @WaterGirl:

    I would bet most of my family members are starting to feel regret, but owing to bullheadedness, wouldn’t fess up.

  94. 94.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Baud: When the Dems have complete control, take advantage and ram through New Deal 2.0?

  96. 96.

    Millard Filmore

    @dmsilev:

    or this is the version of the story that they regard as damage control.

    Either way, its unlikely to fool the IC investigators.

  97. 97.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @dmsilev: Another point, the garbage times has been the go to place for Trump to leak their side of the story.

    For example, when WaPo reported Prince Jared wanted to use russian codes and russian code machines at the russian embassy, they went to nyt to say it wasn’t true.

    at this point, nyt is part of the Trump legal defense team.

  98. 98.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Baud: The disruptive BS faction is not that large in number, they however are quite noisy. Dems in congress and senate have displayed a pretty strong united front against the tsunami of R crap since November.

  100. 100.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Baud: Allowing a failed state to exist on our borders is dangerous. Besides I live in a hater state, Ohellno

  101. 101.

    Baud

    @schrodingers_cat:

    The disruptive BS faction is not that large in number, they however are quite noisy.

    They also have the media and the GOP on their side when they attack Dems. And unfortunately people like Warren may join in to prove her bona fides. Through in the both siders who are always looking to justify their indifference, and it’s a problem that can’t be ignored.

    Dems in congress and senate have displayed a pretty strong united front against the tsunami of R crap since November.

    I agree. We continue to weaken ourselves by underappreciating them.

  102. 102.

    WaterGirl

    Thanks, everybody, for your replies to my frustrations about my BIL. With basically all but one person in my family having either voted for Trump or voted 3rd party or stayed home, there’s really no one I can even talk about this with.

    I did write the whole family this letter a week or two after the election. One of the things my BIL said in the car as we were talking about Trump is that I had “gone off the deep end there at the end”. I’m sure he said that in reference to my letter.

    To my family,

    I am sending you this in writing because it is very difficult for me to talk through these things right now.

    I am beyond upset. I am shocked, profoundly sad, frustrated, angry, and just plain confused about how our country could choose a man like that to be our leader. His campaign was full of words of hate, bigotry, fear-mongering, intolerance, bullying, and lies. He has certainly made it clear by his actions and words just how much he respects women. As the results began to emerge on TV Tuesday evening, at first I thought it was too early to be concerned. Then it started to sink in. By morning, it was reality.

    I feel like someone very close to me has died. I have been having trouble sleeping. I cry and shake and I feel sick to my stomach.

    This is really not about Republican vs. Democrat. After 8 years of a Democratic presidency, a swing to the right is the normal course of things. I would be unhappy if a Republican had been elected. I know, because I lived through Reagan twice and George W. Bush twice. I didn’t like it, but sometimes your guy wins and sometimes your guy loses, that’s the way it goes. You pick yourself up and move on.

    This is not about Hillary losing, either.

    This is about what we say as a nation about what we believe. Immigrants pull this nation down? Well, the only real Americans on this continent are the Native-American Indians. All the rest of us came from someplace else. What has been awakened here is hate: hate of others, hate of women, hate of Islam. His mockery of people with disabilities is abominable! I guess we should just return the Statue of Liberty to France, with her message, “Give me your tired, your poor….”

    Since Donald Trump’s election, his tweet that anti-Trump demonstrators are “paid professionals incited by the media” reminds me of the kinds of thing I would hear from a third world dictator. Is this what leadership in a democracy looks like? The president- elect publicly issuing unfounded accusations of a conspiracy between citizens and the media? Really?

    You may believe that Democrats in general are big spenders, or you may believe in government overreach, those are normal political differences. You may believe that universal health care is a mistake, although I confess that my mind boggles at that one.

    Child one gets leukemia but they live in a nice house and have good insurance so that child gets to live, but child two gets leukemia and maybe they were born into poverty or maybe their Dad lost his job through no fault of his own, so that child doesn’t get to live because they can’t afford health insurance?

    If indeed we were very poor Americans, or a person who lost a job and hit a rough spot, we might be relieved that our government could come to our assistance. In fact, far more white rural Americans receive assistance than black Americans who live in cities. It’s ironic that most red states receive more in benefits from the federal government than they send to the federal government in taxes, etc. Still, I don’t begrudge the people who are getting help from the government even as they try to take benefits away from other people who need help. I don’t begrudge that in normal times, anyway. That is part of the split in our country. But what is happening with Trump is not normal.

    In America, who we choose to govern is a way for us to show the world what our priorities are as a people; we have been a symbol of democracy. I know Democracy is messy, but this is different.

    What we are seeing from Donald Trump is not normal from a president-elect. Threats of legal action against a sitting senator for strongly expressing his concerns about a president- elect? This is not normal.

    The president-elect has named someone very prominent in the racist right to a leadership position in his administration. This is not normal.

    The president-elect has named to his administration a person who is on record saying he “doesn’t like the Jews” and didn’t want his kids to have to go to school with them. This is not normal.

    The president-elect has named to his administration someone who has a very strong past record of voter suppression. This is not right, and it certainly shouldn’t be normal. The people get to decide, and everyone who is eligible should get to vote.

    We have a president-elect whose staff has close ties to Russia and there is proof that Russia interfered in our elections, and the president-elect welcomed it. This is not normal.

    Donald Trump repeatedly encouraged violence in his rallies. THIS IS NOT NORMAL.

    Donald Trump repeatedly talked about locking up his political opponent if he got elected. This is not normal.

    A representative for the president-elect went on national TV after the election and said that Donald Trump is keeping a list of people who didn’t support him or disrespected him and that there will be payback. Let me repeat that. The president-elect has said he is keeping an enemies list and that there will be payback. THIS IS NOT NORMAL.

    Newt Gingrich has just promised to bring back the House Un-American Activities Committee. If you don’t know what that is, look it up, it is a big stain on our democracy. This, too, is not normal.

    Most of these things have happened since the election last Tuesday, so they cannot be dismissed as “campaign rhetoric”.

    When I was a senior in high school, Mom was horrified that I had signed a petition. I scoffed at her, not knowing about blacklisting and all the shameful things that were happening around the time I was born. Sadly, I now understand.
    I am truly frightened that I could be arrested for speaking out against Trump or that I could be beaten in the streets if I attend a rally or demonstration. This is not normal. This is America; I am not supposed to have to worry about that.
    I will say again, this is not about Republican vs. Democrat. This is not me being a sore loser. This is about our democracy, which I now fear for, and about millions of real people who are about to be hurt. At the end of this message, I am including something that was written this week by a good friend of mine. Perhaps her story will put a real face on things for you.

    I will say again: real people are going to get hurt. Innocent people are going to get hurt. Hate crimes have increased across the country since the election, and the president-elect is not speaking out against them. He has selected a blatant racist as a key advisor. I don’t care that much about the haters who elected Donald Trump because of his hate: his hate, bigotry, fear-mongering, intolerance, bullying, and lies.

    What I am most upset about are the otherwise good people who voted for him in spite of those things. People who voted for Trump may not be racists, but they did not find racism disqualifying. To me, that is appalling. How can you justify a vote for a blatantly racist presidential candidate who has repeatedly displayed authoritarian tendencies and an unstable personality?

    I fear that the otherwise good people who voted for Donald Trump or who stayed home have no idea what they have unleashed. People thought it was okay for this man to be president in spite of his actions and behavior. It boggles my mind.

    In any case, I cannot speak calmly about these things. I am too angry and confused right now to even make the attempt. Yes, I am very emotional about this.

    When am I going to “get over it” and “move on?” I do not know. Not very soon. I hope and pray that this man raises himself far above my pitiful expectations as a leader, because I have very little faith in him. His actions in the last five days have frightened me; seeing the people he is choosing to surround himself with for his time in office, my fears have only grown stronger.

    I don’t get angry very often, but I am beyond angry. I look at people who voted for Trump and I feel like I don’t know who they are anymore. That saddens me more than I can say. This election has shaken the very foundation of all that I hold dear as an American. It has been a seismic shock to my psyche. I need time.

    Love, [WaterGirl]

  108. 108.

    Ohio Mom

    @WaterGirl: I live in an Ohio suburb, I have had conversations like yours with your BIL with my neighbors, acquaintances, colleagues, and the occasional friend, for many years now. It is gob-smacking when you hit that wall of denial.

    I can remember for example, trying to explain that “No, Social Security is not a Ponzi Scheme” to a friend and watching the look on her face. She was with me until she wasn’t, I could see her mind snap shut.

    I had many similar conversations with her, and it was always one piece of easily disproveable right wing BS after another, always with the same result. Snap Shut! I eventually told her I couldn’t be her friend anymore.

    It’s not just the part that is personally insulting, that this person can’t find enough respect for you to hear you out. It’s seeing that they are ultimately unable to stretch themselves to meet you halfway.

    You realize that if you can’t trust them to talk about the world in a fair manner with you, how can you ever trust them with your most personal feelings and vulnerabilities?

    Like everyone else in the world, I have plenty of arm’s length relationships, you know, all the acquaintances in one’s life from the nice lady behind the dry cleaner’s counter on up.

    I don’t need any more of those, particularly when it is someone I used to consider an important part of my life. If I seem angry, it’s because really, my feelings are very, very hurt.

  110. 110.

    germy

    @p.a.:

    We don’t know yet what drove them to volunteer such highly damaging information.

    the shitzgibbon and his family are terrible people who treat their staff like crap, and therefore get no loyalty?

  111. 111.

    Baud

    @Ohio Mom: I know what you mean. I’ve always wondered how people who were not evangelicals could be married to one given that they sincerely believe people who aren’t saved are going to hell.

  112. 112.

    WaterGirl

    @debbie: That’s what I thought, too, until this weekend. Anyone who is still taking a “wait and see” attitude about Donald Trump’s presidency has lost their way.

  117. 117.

    magurakurin

    @Baud: I would say that they most certainly are Russian bots. same for the pinheads who come around here.

  118. 118.

    Ohio Mom

    @Baud: Josh Marshall’s middle name is “speculative.” He is always carefully considered, and he builds his case on accepted facts, and he knows when to hedge his bets, so I would never say he is a conspiracy monger. But he does like to theorize.

  120. 120.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: I am wondering that, too. Then I posted something and WP told me it was SPAM. How rude!

  121. 121.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @bystander:

    I’m predicting some major lashing out and measures he thinks are punitive against the press and liberals in general.

    Good point, Trump is coming across as weak and silly at G20 and that’s something Trump will be frantic to distract from.

  124. 124.

    magurakurin

    @Ohio Mom: very well said. this is where I am,too. The people close to me who voted Trump broke my heart.not sure it will ever heal.

  126. 126.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @schrodingers_cat: Well, if taken to extremes it can be. We have to be careful. We may be right about extensive Russian meddling, but we don’t want to look like the McCarthyites either

  131. 131.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Baud: Oh I get that. Watergirl’s comment about her family is proof of that. Just something to keep in mind

  133. 133.

    WaterGirl

    @Ohio Mom: @magurakurin: I was heartbroken at first, but I don’t want to lose my entire family. I mostly I feel a coldness and a distance from family members who either voted for Trump, voted 3rd party or didn’t vote, and that’s almost the whole extended family, except for one niece.

    That’s very weird for me, because feeling a distance like that is something that is very unusual for me. Oh well, it is what it is. For the first few months I really couldn’t even talk with them – what is there to say to someone who has dashed your view of someone you have known for decades? Now with them I completely avoid talk of politics, except for this weekend. sigh.

  134. 134.

    trollhattan

    @WaterGirl:
    You just summed up all but [pauses for extreme digital vetting a.k.a. fingers AND toes] three of my inlaws, and I have enough inlaws to populate a large town. A bigly portion are on public assistance at any given time.

  137. 137.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    Trump might throw in Hawaii too.

    It would return the USA to its 1950s borders *and* validate Trump’s claim that Obama wasn’t born here.

    Actually, try like 1850s. Alaska and Hawaii were at least US territories pre-50s

  139. 139.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @WaterGirl: Sorry if I insulted you by insulting your brother-in-law. I looked back at my previous comment to yours and it was kind of in poor taste

  140. 140.

    dmsilev

    @schrodingers_cat:

    The last guy here, who I suspected of being a Russian troll said suspecting people of being Russian bots is like citing Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

    Considering the long history of Russian ant-Semitism in general and the PotEoZ in particular, I think that just blew the fuse on my irony meter.

  142. 142.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Ohio Mom:
    I learned about this phenomenon in an utterly different context, decades ago. In college, I took an Ecology class. I was taking a lot of biology classes for my Entomology major, Ecology sounded fun, and it was. We got assignments to argue pro- or con- major ecological issues of the time. I got assigned to argue against protecting the Northern Spotted Owl, quite a hot button then. Needless to say, I thought this would be impossible, but I knew the point wasn’t to win, just to show the teacher my competence, so I went to study the topic.

    What I found was jaw-dropping. There is no Northern Spotted Owl. It’s a taxonomic shell game. Spotted Owls are incredibly numerous all over North America, but the ‘Northern Spotted Owl’ was defined by its location, not any genetic difference. If you turned the old growth forests it lived in into lumbered forests, you would wipe out the Northern Spotted Owl – but the actual physical owls themselves wouldn’t die, they’d just be renamed California Spotted Owls and keep on living successfully like California Spotted Owls do in lumbering forests all over the West Coast.

    I was overjoyed. I’d uncovered a bombshell. There might be great reasons to preserve those forests, but the Northern Spotted Owl wasn’t one of them. I presented this to the class… and watched as it bounced right off of them. It wasn’t what they were expecting to hear, so they ignored it and went back to what they expected to do, voting that obviously they should save the Northern Spotted Owl. Even the teacher didn’t acknowledge it.

    Psychology classes confirmed for me that this is no accident. This is what humans are like. It is very difficult for us to listen to what we don’t want to hear. Most people don’t put in that effort. They brush inconvenient truths aside and keep going with whatever they wanted to believe already.

  149. 149.

    Applejinx

    @Ohio Mom: You’re not the only one with such feelings. I tend to hang with the dirtbag left these days, and it sure ain’t because I think Trump is dandy. Some of them think I’m completely mad for believing that solar, automation, AI and robots can bring on a new form of society: I tell ’em I’m an accelerationist, which means ‘let things become so intolerable that the world HAS to change radically’.

    This is because I see society absolutely collapsing from the bottom up. Rich people are sheltered and clinging to their picture of a world, but it’s already gone.

    ALL the people who ran for President in the last election were rich people with issues, including my Vermont Senator. If I can find someone who plausibly rages against millionaires and billionaires like he did/does, but is younger and ideally a black woman for ‘fuck you republicans’ value, I will absolutely go support her instead. My Senator was completely believable making those arguments, because he is not a billionaire and he hates OTHER millionaires and is probably twisted with guilt from being in Washington and probably getting very wealthy at the behest of Jane. One is never so strident as when one is railing against faults one shares.

    As for the plans of the Democrats, run somebody whom I don’t think is going to pull a Macron and declare themselves King (or Queen). Run someone who is not going to tell everyone the economy is great, you just HAVE to move to a big city and get hustling as an independent unlicensed contractor on call to a giant Wall Street darling technocrat company that is revolutionizing the world by being ‘disruptive’.

    People who think there is any future in that world are STUPID, and I have no patience for pollyanna stupidity when most of my friends are subject to ‘disruption’. The world Hillary wanted, will not work. She might have been sincere, she might simply have stood to benefit from the largest US companies becoming incalculably wealthy through global realpolitik: I do honestly believe she would have made the USA richer than it has ever been, but she did not figure out that this dynamic (that dated back to when Bill was breaking unions and the welfare state) will kill countless Americans who really have nowhere else to turn at this point.

    Find me someone who hates billionaires, it can’t be just my old codger from Vermont. They can’t have literally bought off EVERYONE in government. There’s got to be somebody out there who’s not literally in the pay of the billionaires. And if you think Russia is some kind of way to go against American billionaires and globalists: HA! Why do you think Russia was able to buy out the US Government? They come with their own billionaires, which are just as bad because they’re ALL the same. These people have no loyalties to anything but money and they’re absolutely in charge. NOTHING else can get traction until that’s dealt with.

    Feh. Back to Chapo Trap House and the company of tankies. (most of you probably have more sympathy for tankies than you’d expect to have, you just want capitalist idpol tankies. Pink tanks. That say ‘persist THIS’.

  157. 157.

    dmsilev

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Why do food bloggers have to add long cutesy stories about their toddlers before they give you the recipe?

    I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy Child well Nursed is at a year Old, a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome Food, whether Stewed, Roasted, Baked, or Boyled, and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a Fricasie, or Ragoust.

  158. 158.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Applejinx:

    I do honestly believe she would have made the USA richer than it has ever been, but she did not figure out that this dynamic (that dated back to when Bill was breaking unions and the welfare state) will kill countless Americans who really have nowhere else to turn at this point.

    If they happened to be Trump supporters it would be no great loss.

    And honestly? You vote for the candidate you have not the candidate you want. Hillary was the best of all the available options. Practically everyone besides her was either an idiot or a flake.

    And tell me: how do you realistically get to that utopia?
    Listen: I generally agree with your premise that the current system the way it’s set up is unsustainable. How do you fix it? And AI? That’s a crapshoot

  159. 159.

    tobie

    @p.a.:”The only reason a President’s allies ever do something like that is either to get ahead of something much more damaging or get a first crack at shaping the public understanding…Five of them did it. It wasn’t a matter of one person going rogue.”

    What I really hate is just how plausible Josh Marshall’s take sounds to me. The country is run by a bunch of conspirators and hence we need to think like conspiracy theorists. Five people chiming in with the same addendum to the Donny J/Russian lawyer story does sound like a media strategy. Yes, this is pure speculation but it wouldn’t surprise me in the least. John Le Carre has a new spy novel coming out in September. I wonder if it will all seem just so humdrum after everything we’ve witnessed since Jan 20.

  160. 160.

    mai naem mobile

    @Yarrow: how bad can the whole story be at this point ? It would have to involve literal proveable rape, murder, pedophilia or/and human trafficking. I hope it’s not some complicated money laundering operation ease that will go over the heads of Trumpkins and a lot of Americans.

  161. 161.

    Applejinx

    @Baud: You guys will never win an election again unless you cease running campaigns like Jon Ossoff’s. I’m serious. You cannot throw multiple millions of corporate money into mealymouthed horrible TV advertisements in order to support a class of consultants and lanyards. It’s not joke time.

  163. 163.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Applejinx: If the GOP have their way, with Russian support, we’ll never win anyway.

    Look, GA-6 was a Republican stronghold. Had been since the 70s. Special elections are hard to flip. The fact that Ossoff came so close was impressive. It was always a long shot. I think things are looking positive for 2018. Newsflash: a socialist wouldn’t have won there, dude. Don’t relitigate the primarys.

    Come back to us when you win some elections

  165. 165.

    WaterGirl

    @trollhattan: At some point I can only conclude that it is willful ignorance. I hate Obamacare, but don’t take away the ACA. I hate government assistance, but don’t take away my medicare. I hate the federal government, but I work for TSA. What the fuck is wrong with these people?

  169. 169.

    Applejinx

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:

    If they happened to be Trump supporters it would be no great loss.

    I really, truly, do not agree. I’ve got a bunch of dirtbag left friends, but I’ve also got friends who were/are clearly Trump supporters. I was a Hillary voter though with every Jon Ossoff campaign I increasingly regret that and don’t want to repeat it. The election was completely rigged every which way and was a sick joke, and Hillary being the best of the worst was part of that sick joke.

    I don’t fix it: I’m more likely to die from it. And ‘realistically’ means ‘through a political system that is completely captured by (a) billionaires, (b) Russia, and (c) Russian billionaires’ so there IS no ‘realistically’ to be had. We are going to die.

    Or, we rise up and seize something resembling a welfare state/Star Trek AI/robot future, because we have no choice but to do so. This is Hillary’s greatest and most unforgivable sin: picking out Americans who are brainwashed and left behind and treated like crap, and basically saying ‘they should just die, that or move to cities and train to be programmers’ (a horribly impractical notion when PROGRAMMERS are being automated and AI-ed just as fast as everything else).

    The country is already ruined, the bad guys (and I’m saying that constitutes both ‘Russian’ and ‘American’ oligarchs) are already in total control, there is no ‘realistic’ and we are all going to die. We have NOTHING to lose anymore. If I got sick I would have to start thinking of what sort of target I could take out since I’d know there was no hope for me anyhow. Let’s not talk about ‘realistic political tactics’.

    Feh, I give up again. I hope if I do explode somewhere, I don’t blow any of you up. That’s the extent of my remaining sympathy for Balloon Juice. I hope you die comfortably, unlike most of MY friends.

  170. 170.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @WaterGirl: As I noted a few years ago talking to a Republican friend and the kid’s Republican boyfriend(now former bf), the folk most against government are the one’s that depend on it for their income. The Republican friend works for a defense contractor.

  176. 176.

    Baud

    @Applejinx: You and Trump share an obsession with the fake Hillary that lives in your brains. Unless and until enough people like you say no to that culture — Trump’s culture — things will continue to go downhill.

  178. 178.

    p.a.

    @tobie: the filter we must use for the current republican party requires the realization that no one- not one person- has any desire or impulse to public service for the benefit of the general population. on our side you can’t say that even sbout the Anthony Weiners or Rahm Emmanuels.

  182. 182.

    p.a.

    Is he talking about outside the trump admin?

    Alex Jones warns of pig/gorilla/human hybrids who can talk

    won’t include link. atrios does.

  183. 183.

    magurakurin

    @Baud: apparently a fake Macron, too. Macron just signed a law banning gasoline and diseal cars in France from 2040, and he had previously just ended drilling rights in French controlled territories. But, somethin, something, neo liberals…

  184. 184.

    Chyron HR

    @Applejinx:

    I have no patience for pollyanna stupidity when most of my friends are subject to ‘disruption’.

    Friendly reminder: You and your friends demanded “Bernie or Bust”. Congratulations on your victory.

  189. 189.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Applejinx: Omnes was right. You are a loony.

    Are trying to suggest Clinton rigged the election in some way? As in the primaries? That’s a pretty serious charge. I hope you have some sources for that claim.

    If it comes to violence to sort this thing out then so be it. That time hasn’t come yet. Defeatism and despair never helped anyone. A Star Trek like existence would be wonderful, but it was a TV show. Not real life.

    People are really stupid. Trump supporters, Bernie diehards, etc. Something more needs to be done to help those who have been left behind. But all of that can’t happen overnight. You have to work for it in a political party. Forging connections with others. It’s how it works. Having a stiffer spine and being loud and proud about our party affiliation (for pols) is something we could learn from the GOP

  191. 191.

    joel hanes

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    It’s the ultimate success of the Arkansas Project.

    Bing.

    And all its bullyin hardball dirty-tricks ratfucking pranking cheating bigot-enabling norm-defying reality-denying disenfranchising ilk.

    The damnable thing about the damnable Republicans is that being brazenly damnable has worked so very well for them.

    Watching the last few decades as a politcally-engaged liberal has given me a bit of sympathy for Denethor:
    compelled to gaze into a palantir fixed on images of Mordor triumphant.

  192. 192.

    WaterGirl

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Huh. That makes no sense unless you realize that the person you are speaking with is a deserving person and all the other people who need assistance are lazy moochers. THEN it makes sense.

    My other sister’s husband hates Obama and goes without healthcare – until he can get medicare in a few years. He refuses to take the subsidies with Obamacare because he hates Obama and hates the government, so he goes without health care. Yes, he hates that same government that will be giving him Medicare in just a few years. It’s mind boggling. PhD and very bright, but also fundamental christian who believes all the ridiculous stuff he reads in right wing emails.

  195. 195.

    Applejinx

    @Baud: Run somebody who is going to step away from the corporations and the billionaires who have ruined this country. Hillary is but a symptom, just a woman smart enough to understand how to prosper within that system. The system has to go or it will simply collapse whether you like it or not.

    The way you guys are handling things is making it WORSE, not better. I don’t know what’s going to happen, but I stay away from here because the more I see of the political arguments here, the less faith I have in the Democratic Party: and there is no other option, and you know the Democratic Party cannot function without a passably sane Republican Party to interact with, and that ship sailed years ago, never to return.

    Just… just don’t talk like you have anything resembling realistic plans, tactics, strategies, any of it. You lose everything, and in such a way that it’s like winning would be the amazing ‘winning’ the centrists did in France. Yay, no Le Pen. Instead, le Etat, c’est moi? Talk about out of the frying pan into the fire. I have NO faith that the Democratic party isn’t poised for a similar tactic, your rhetoric is TOTALLY freeped-out and has been since before the election, and the Republicans have already crossed their version of that threshold.

  198. 198.

    Baud

    @Applejinx: Stay or go. I don’t care. You don’t have the credibility to tell us what we should or should not be doing. The reality is, no one knows. If you can’t handle being with us on the journey we will have to take to figure it out, then I wish you well on whatever the future holds for you.

  203. 203.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: You could switch for a minute and verify that the pie filter is there on the desktop version on your iPad mini, then switch back. If you could let me know either way, i will add it to Alain’s list of stuff to fix.

  204. 204.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Applejinx:

    Run somebody who is going to step away from the corporations and the billionaires who have ruined this country.

    Why don’t you (not you personaly) try to run somebody like that? If they can win in conservative or at least swing districts/states, then the Dems will follow

  205. 205.

    joel hanes

    @Applejinx:

    The way you guys are handling things is making it WORSE

    Thanks for your input.

    I stay away from here

    That’s probably best for everyone.

  207. 207.

    WaterGirl

    @Mike J: All we need now is for Baud to weigh in on whether he sees it on the desktop version on his mini.

  208. 208.

    Chet Murthy

    I’m not even going to do Applejinx the courtesy of “replying” to them. What idiocy. Rank idiocy. This fool thinks that you change the system by pulling it down? Has he never studied any history? Economics? The billionaires -will- employ armies of thugs (cops, troops, whatever) to stomp you into the dirt. Oh, and suppose you pull off your revolution? Do you have ANY IDEA how fragile human economies are? Know anybody who’s a diabetic? They’ll die, come your revolution. Every AIDS patient? Dead. Idiot. We all depend on supply chains that stretch around the world, and for sure there’s not much stock buffered in warehouses nearby. B/c that was the “efficient” thing to do.

    Wanna change this system? Either do it incrementally, or look for a die-off like when the Western Roman Empire collapsed.

    ETA: And he talks about some Star Trek/AI utopia. With no idea of how much *investment* that takes. You don’t coordinate that investment in the middle of a revolution. And I”m not talking money. I’m talking about machinery, distribution systems, research in things we don’t even know how to do yet. And all of it will need to be coordinated. Go ahead, imagine that you’re going to do this while declaring war on the wealthy. Really, go ahead.

    At least the Dems had a plan – incrementally improve the lot of the poorest of us. You’re just looking to start the next Russian Revolution. Or French Revolution.

  210. 210.

    WaterGirl

    @Omnes Omnibus: I never make it past a line or two of Applejinx comments, but I did go back and read the one that Major x4 said was “variously very sad and very disgusting”.

    I’m not much of a ‘fuck off’ kind of person, but I have to go with that on this one. That comment was truly hateful and awful.

  211. 211.

    Applejinx

    @Baud: Yeah… I wish you well also. I’m so very with you when you said, upthread:

    While I would give anything to have Hillary be president, all the pathologies that led to her defeat would have gone into overdrive if she were president.

    I think you meant ‘outside’ pathologies, but I think it’s just as applicable to ‘inside’ pathologies, the horrible choices and self-owns that cost us what should have been a very easy waltz into the White House. They went into overdrive anyway and it’s been nonstop witch hunts ever since (easy to notice when it’s your Senator playing the role of the witch).

    Something is going to happen. I don’t know what either, but the system we thought we had to work within is already dead. There will be no putting it back, so think big. Playing ‘realistic politics of centrism’ really offends me under President Trump.

  213. 213.

    Applejinx

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Hope so. I honestly do. It’s not like the Republicans aren’t busy poisoning their brand. It SHOULD be not so impossible to flip even deep red districts after this clusterfuck (hell, even Ossoff came surprisingly close, and he was campaigning like a bozo). It SHOULD be possible to pull off an upset.

    I’d like to see younger people, blacker people, female-er people, campaigning like human beings and talking sense.

    Not neoliberal ‘realistic centrist politics’, because we know that is death. Sense.

  222. 222.

    Applejinx

    @Omnes Omnibus: Third Way classic Clintonian politics with an emphasis on increasing the wealth of the USA through globalist trade agreements and outsourcing: actually quite effective at boosting the GDP, except that it’s done by massively generating corporate profits through selling out the workers who cannot hope to compete with sweatshops and foreign slave labor. Can lead to improving the lot of that same foreign labor, which isn’t much help for the consumer class HERE. Can be hawkish, but is more closely aligned with supporting the economic interests of multinational corporations in the belief that free-market principles are the primary governing force of the world and lead to the best outcomes: thus, not outright imperialist in the traditional sense.

    You should go to Reddit’s r/neoliberal subreddit. It’s not even ironic: it’s disingenuous to behave like neoliberalism hasn’t been the banner under which everyone from the Clintons to Tony Blair to Britain’s New Labor to Barack Obama marched, all while insisting ‘it’s not neoliberalism, it’s just how the world works!’.

    Neoliberalism increasingly is not ashamed of itself and gets more brazen the more it’s exposed as a horrible lie. You should be boasting of it rather than repudiating it. Are you suggesting your aspirational, free-market, trickle-down ways are WRONG, that you can’t even accept the word?

    Okay, enough playing/sparring/bitching. Dunno what got into me. All this time I’ve been figuring Balloon Juice and the Democrats they support were a lost cause, and should just be ignored, and here I am sparring away as if I think they will show some kind of inkling that they’re not literally a distorting mirror of what’s become of the Republicans, and what the heck was I thinking? Go on, ‘pie’ my vote. You had it once, ya fuckers, and I should have known better. Should’ve written in Bozo the Clown, or Baud.

  223. 223.

    WaterGirl

    Whatever happens going forward, I hope the Democratic Party does not waste its time by going after the votes of people of Applejinx’s persuasion. Total waste of time and energy.

    “Madam, a conversation with you would be like arguing with a dining room table.”
    – Barney Frank

  225. 225.

    Yoda Dog

    He kinda does that Paulian thing where he makes some good sense for a minute just before veering straight off of a cliff into madness.

  226. 226.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Applejinx: Okay, who was advocating neoliberal policies in the 2016 presidential election? Trick question – no one was. You are fucking delusional. From what I have seen of your “support: over the last year or so, we were, at best, only damaged slightly by your “Hillary is an evil monster, but she is our evil monster and she might not eat us in our sleep” electioneering. You are about as useful as tits on a boar.

  227. 227.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Applejinx:

    globalist trade agreements

    And we’re done. Globalist is a known anti-Semitic weasel word.

  230. 230.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Omnes Omnibus: A lot of alt-reichists and Trumpets online have used that term. I’ve come to associate it with anti-Jewish conspiracies

  231. 231.

    Applejinx

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: What? My aunt and uncle are Jewish. So’s fuckin’ Bernie.

    Whatever. I will return to exclusively lurking and watching you folks suffer. I didn’t used to want that before being accused of all manner of horrible crap, and I can’t do a thing to make you folks suffer, but your own choices and the ascendancy of the Republicans and Trumpism is doing it daily, and I only have to watch.

    I look forward to watching the Republicans suffer, even more. They’re worse. Ta.

  234. 234.

    dww44

    @WaterGirl: After all these months, I believe I’ve personally decided that the reason Trump is President and Hillary isn’t is that way too many otherwise sane folks, albeit Republican light, honestly believe that she was and is a liar. This is what 25 years or so of relentless and virulent attacks on the Clintons did to the country…..gave us DT as a President and abruptly signaled the end of American leadership in the world. I am more than sad;I am viscerally angry.

  239. 239.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Applejinx: perhaps I jumped the gun and should have been more charitable. I saw that term and immediately starting giving you the side-eye.

  240. 240.

    liberal

    @Omnes Omnibus: Hillary didn’t really advocate much at all in the way of policy…her campaign was marked by recent historical lows in terms of fraction of messaging devoted to policy.

  241. 241.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @liberal:
    I direct you here:

    A lot of alt-reichists and Trumpets online have used that term. I’ve come to associate it with anti-Jewish conspiracies

  244. 244.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @liberal: And I’m sure the guy wearing a snazy uniform throwing you out the back of a C-130 without a parachute over the Gulf of Mexico will love hearing you tell that story. Make sure you bring your rubber duck.

  245. 245.

    Yoda Dog

    @dww44: I just never understood how those types (I talked to a few in 2016 myself) could be so very concerned with Hillary’s honesty and then turn right around and support the single by-far most obvious and objectively mendacious campaign in U.S. history.

    I mean other than the obvious misogyny at play, of course…

  250. 250.

    Applejinx

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Well, that’s why I’d much rather see Republicans suffer: and by that, I mean the politicians, not the poor bastards equally stuck in bad-or-worse choices. May we all one day vote FOR. I did in the primaries and only in the primaries, and I was voting for a message not a man. That message can’t die so long as every shred of our political system highlights it.

    Fuck Trump,

    You people are sooo weird but eh, maybe you’ll sometimes do the good things you so want to identify with,

    laters. And you should definitely be listening to Chapo. You’ll be surprised at how real leftists are pissed with EVERYBODY and totally have no patience or tolerance for Trump. The enemy of your friend is not automatically the friend of your enemy. Bear that in mind more often. You might even make a dent in that half of the country who understandably doesn’t vote for any of these assholes, whatever letter is behind their name ;)

  251. 251.

    Sab

    @liberal: Seriously! Her campaign was phucking swamped with policy, because she cared deeply about policy and had spent decades of her life studying policy, including talking to real people out in the world, and not just DC apparatchiks.

    I know you are a a troll, but I don’t want your trollisms to sink into our minds as uncontested truth.

  254. 254.

    Chet Murthy

    @Sab:

    I know you are a a troll, but I don’t want your trollisms to sink into our minds as uncontested truth.

    I thought this the time-before-last that this swamp-dweller showed up, but somebody told me “liberal” was an old-timer. So I went easy this time. Thanks for confirming my suspicion!

    Pie for everyone!

  255. 255.

    Lurking Canadian

    @Chet Murthy: I always have a knee jerk impulse to defend the French Revolution. The goals of the Revolution, yes even the worst of the Jacobins, were to establish the equality of all citizens before the law, and to establish that the state had obligations to safeguard the well-being of the citizens. Radical notions at the time; plain common sense and the sine qua non, for most of us, of what civilization should be about.

    Somewhere there’s a timeline where the aristos and the crowned heads of Europe didn’t react like they were being mugged to the notion that they ought to pay some damned taxes, and maybe even, God forbid, go to jail if they broke the law. I imagine it’s nice there.

  257. 257.

    Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)

    @Omnes Omnibus: Douchebag, not asshole, and he’s far closer to trolldom than, say, Applejinx. EFGoldman’s an asshole and goblue72’s a douche, but I don’t get the feeling that they’re actively trying to piss people off.

    BTW, the OP’s point wasn’t that Larison is a poor FP columnist, but that BradD’s support of him is broadly anti-critical. Saying Larison’s reactionism isn’t directly relevant to his foreign-policy cred is fine, but intimating that it’s not a valid topic of discussion goes into “I refuse to care about that entirely because he says thing I like” – along with him only citing Mearsheimer after he got laughed out of here for defending Cohen – shows that his citations of Walt, Postol, etc. aren’t intellectual curiosity but transparent confirmation bias.

    ETA: Pie’s gone. I blame Obamam

    So true to his spirit.

  259. 259.

    Bupalos

    @Applejinx: tell you what dude, you scare me. There’s 4 or 5 personalities here that that I just think, man, that person has made themselves sick. It’s a scary time, I and probably most here deep down agree that simply voting D isn’t really enough, but to me you sound mostly like a cautionary tale, one more way that kindness and humanity and understanding can be drained from society, even via a conduit of good intentions.

    Please don’t hurt or kill anyone. I wish you the worst of all possible luck trying to “accelerate” things as if you could forsee the future. You should stop and recognize that you aren’t a god and don’t neccessarily really know.

    Great, another night of spoiled sleep because I checked out the comments here and leave disturbed.

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