Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

Whatever happens next week, the fight doesn’t end.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

Come on, man.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

The GOP couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

Don’t expect peaches from an apple tree.

Joe Lieberman disappointingly reemerged to remind us that he’s still alive.

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

You cannot shame the shameless.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Hot air and ill-informed banter

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.

You are here: Home / Politics / America / We Have EMAILS!!!!!

We Have EMAILS!!!!!

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Bozhe Moi!

From The NY Times:

Before arranging a meeting with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer he believed would offer him compromising information about Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump Jr. was informed in an email that the material was part of a Russian government effort to aid his father’s candidacy, according to three people with knowledge of the email.

Here’s what I think are the outstanding questions pertaining to what occurred in regard to the Trump campaign in Trump Tower on 9 June 2016.

1) On June 2016 there was a meeting of the Trump campaign finance folks at Trump Tower. News reporting documented Reince Priebus, among others, as being in Trump Tower that day.
2) Where exactly in Trump Tower did the meeting with the Russian lawyer take place?
3) At what time?
4) Who else did she have access to? The finance folks?
5) That afternoon, at 4:40 PM, the (now) President issued his first tweet about Secretary Clinton’s emails.

This leaves a very important final pair of questions:

 

Reader Interactions

151Comments

  3. 3.

    trollhattan

    I’m going into Mulder mode: “I want to believe.”

    But I’ll believe it when it bloody well happens and not a second before. Slippery bastard has escaped punishment for every meaningful bad deed for half a century, how is 2017 any different?

  4. 4.

    Garbo

    The change in the Republican Platform on Ukraine. Magic 8 ball says “It is decidedly so.”

  7. 7.

    efgoldman

    Honest question for late-night attorneys: Does seeking “dirt” from a foreign country on a political opponent by itself constitute a crime?
    Assume, for the sake of the question, that there’s no quid pro quo or financial consideration.

  14. 14.

    BBA

    Yeah but anything that hurts Hillary is legal. That was part of the Contract With America wasn’t it?

  15. 15.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Bozhe Moi!

    I don’t know why, but for some reason I adore that expression! I say it with some frequency, and think I probably first heard it in “Lobachevsky” from the original Tom Lehrer album.

  17. 17.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @GregB: Fredogate
    ETA: As someone was tweeting the other night, from I believe All the President’s Men, The simple truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

  22. 22.

    dmsilev

    @efgoldman: It’s a blatant violation of electoral law (you’re not allowed to solicit contributions, either financial or in-kind) from foreign nationals, never mind foreign nationals who are agents of their government. And apparently from what I’ve read, a case can be made that it’s not just a “toothless FEC might get around to fining you at about the same time as the sun turns into a red giant and consumes the Earth” issue but rather a “federal prosecutors might well come knocking on your door Real Soon Now” offense.

  25. 25.

    Yarrow

    They’re all traitors. I am enjoying seeing just how willing Trump is to throw his kids under the bus to save himself. Eric and Ivanka, you’re next.

  26. 26.

    Roger Moore

    @efgoldman:
    As I understand it, soliciting any kind of campaign benefit from a non-US person is illegal. That could be asking for money from foreign nationals, or it could be asking for assistance in kind. It doesn’t matter if you’re soliciting a private citizen or a government entity: asking for campaign help is illegal.

  28. 28.

    West of the Rockies (been a while)

    I’ve been impatient for significantly damaging leaks to further deflate the flatulent Don Trumpovani… this may be the real beginning of a four-alarm fire for this administration.

  29. 29.

    efgoldman

    @dmsilev:

    It’s a blatant violation of electoral law (you’re not allowed to solicit contributions, either financial or in-kind) from foreign nationals, never mind foreign nationals who are agents of their government.

    But they’d have to make the case that oppo research is an in-kind contribution, right? Suppose the Russians whispered in some random American’s ear, and that person then took a meeting with Fredo?
    I want these assholes to go down SO badly; I’d hate like hell for the prosecutors to find themselves in some kind of Traitor Ollie North situation.

  30. 30.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    but, but… Matt Taibbi has repeatedly told me there was no collusion and he must know as he’s a “true progressive”

  35. 35.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Jared Yates Sexton‏Verified account @JYSexton 2h2 hours ago

    Last summer, right as DNC emails were released, members of Trump’s campaign started expressing concern about a shift regarding Russia 1/

    They told me it was a result of power struggle between Lewandowski and Manafort, who was a foreign agent in Russia’s pocket. 2/

    There were deals, they said, regarding sanctions and US stance and relations with Russia. Those deals were under Manafort’s direction 3/

    It was understood that Clinton’s and DNC’s emails would be part of the deal, only the DNC emails were readily available. 4/

    There were other factors, including bots, fake news, and other reality warping measures. Manafort brought the deal home. 5/

    He didn’t survive the revelation of cash payouts from Moscow, but the spirit of the deal remained after his ouster. 6/

    They told me how this would play out. These meetings were part of that explanation. Manafort’s story developing is what’s next. 7/7

    20 replies 215 retweets 348 likes

  38. 38.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: There’s definitely a knee jerk reaction among some on the left against perceived McCarthyism. Has been for several years among the anti-authority left. Understandable, given what happened to several innocents during the 50s. But all of this shit is far more substantial then what HUAC eventually degenerated into.

  39. 39.

    Anne Laurie

    @efgoldman:

    Honest question for late-night attorneys: Does seeking “dirt” from a foreign country on a political opponent by itself constitute a crime?

    Well, I remember that HRC’s campaign wasn’t allowed to sell campaign swag to foreigners — Canadian reporters who wanted “I’m with her” tees or pinbacks had to find an American to buy it for them.

    There’s also the side-issue that Young Prince Jared “forgot” to mention this meeting on his security clearance form. It may be not-technically-criminal since it was during the campaign, but it does add another dot on what I believe prosecutors call “a pattern of criminal behavior“…

  40. 40.

    Another Scott

    Drum points us to Corn who has much more:

    […]

    Given [Rob] Goldstone’s ties to the Agalarovs and Trump—and the friendship between Trump and Emin—it is not so odd that this talent manager had influence with Donald Trump Jr. and could set up this curious session with Trump’s most intimate advisers. The bigger mystery now is the precise role the pop-star son of a Russian oligarch associated with Putin played in trying to pass derogatory Clinton information to the Trump campaign—and whether this effort extended beyond this one meeting.

    UPDATE: On Monday afternoon, Goldstone issued this statement: “I was asked by my client in Moscow—Emin Agalarov—to help facilitate a meeting between a Russian attorney (Natalia Veselnitzkaya) and Donald Trump Jr. The lawyer had apparently stated she had some information regarding illegal campaign contributions to the DNC which she believed Mr. Trump Jr. might find important. I reached out to Donald Trump Jr. and he agreed to squeeze us into a very tight meeting schedule. At the meeting, the Russian attorney presented a few very general remarks regarding campaign funding and then quickly turned the topic to that of the Magnitzky Act and the banned US adoption of Russian children—at which point the meeting was halted by Don Jr. and we left. Nothing came of that meeting and there was no follow up between the parties.”

    (Emphasis added.)

    Not that I believe this is the full story, but it’s always projection.

    IIRC, the book “Citizen Hughes” claimed that the Watergate break-in was to find dirt on the Democrats to indicate they were taking bribes just as bad as the ones Nixon was getting…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  42. 42.

    moops

    I’ll quote myself, sorry

    Trump has been laundering money for Russian oligarchs. That is what Mueller has on him, along with Jared. That is what they are going to indict him on, since that is the only thing that is bipartisan. It doesn’t sully the GOP brand, so Mueller will be allowed to carry it to term. It will also leave Pence in place. Heard it here first. Note the time and day. Think about it. Trump loses money on every business, and yet is actually a billionaire. He lost money with a casino, somehow. His only asset is his brand, but a brand maxes out at $100M in value, and he peed a bunch of that away several times. His “brand” is no bigger than Michael Jordan. Arnold actually has a brand AND is good at real estate in LA AND was governor, and he *might* be as wealthy. So, Trump’s businesses fail, and he has huge tax right-offs on the books, but he’s rich. He’s a front. The Russian oligarchs are dumping rubles and buying laundered Trump assets for a pretty good deal through Trump. That’s why the FBI was bugging Trump Tower.

    The IC is *really* trying to steer things back to treason, but Mueller won’t go after treason, since Congress and Senate won’t back him. Treason will poison the GOP. It will scoop up Sessions, and Ryan, and other GOP party big hitters. Not going to happen. Mueller knows the GOP is a mess of compromised politicians, and he also knows he can’t go after them. His only angle to to burn Trump for real Mafia-style money laundering and hope follow-on investigations chip away at flipped Congress and Senate members.

    He could literally have tapes of him colluding with the KGB and nothing will happen to Trump, too many of GOP are trapped the same goo, and it will never pass the political hurdles.

  43. 43.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Another Scott: Not to mention, Goldstone is now on record as lying about it. If Mueller (or others) go after him for it, we’re going to start getting HIS details of the whole affair as well.

  48. 48.

    Anne Laurie

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    At one time, it mattered. And some of us care. The same with The New Republic.

    The Nation was always my mother’s little magazine (I never had much faith in my mother’s political instincts), but I’m sad about TNR too. Had a subscription for years during the 1980s, when a print sub was a much bigger bite out of my disposable income; cancelled during the Sullivan/Kelley RWNJ years. Resubscribed when Jeet Heer was made editor… but I’m reading it less and less, and almost never online. Will probably get around to formally cancelling once the Russiagate story ramps up and the “dirtbag leftists”, or whatever the red-rose-in-their-avatars #HeightenTheContradiction boyz are calling themselves by then, start parroting the same lies as Jeffrey Lord or Sean Hannity in its once-august pages.

  49. 49.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @MisterForkbeard: That Trump’s advisors like Flynn and Manafort and Carter Page all had ties to russia speaks volume. He could have hired anyone, but somehow they all had ties to russia. It happened too often to just be a coincidence.

    The question now is did Trump hire these people or did Putin tell Trump to hire them.

  51. 51.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Omnes Omnibus: there was a long profile of Peretz from IIRC that last years of the Bush administration. It seemed that a combination of 9/11 and the Iraq War pushed him over the edge from supporter of Israel to stone blood-thirsty racist of Krauthammerian madness

  52. 52.

    danielx

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Why, the arch-villain her very own self, HRC! The very word email therefore implies guilt all by itself. Is there no end to her wickedness, entangling poor DJT Jr in her webs?

  53. 53.

    Mike J

    How do you know for sure this is damaging? Hannity says it was a set up. It doesn’t make any sense to set up somebody for something that isn’t a crime.

  54. 54.

    Adam L Silverman

    @moops: I think you are correct on the “follow the money”. I’ve been writing that here for months. But I think you are underestimating just who Mueller is and, as a result, what he is likely to do. There won’t be treason charges because of how treason is defined in the Constitution, but that doesn’t mean he is simply going to leave significant parts of the enterprise in place.

  55. 55.

    Anne Laurie

    @GregB:

    Is it time to name this scandal: Moron-Gate?

    Too broad; that describes everything every single Republican has done since at least 2008.

  57. 57.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Adam L Silverman: I guess if he couldn’t confirm any of it, then maybe he shouldn’t have reported on it.

    But then I compare this with the fucking massive amount of AP/NYT misinformation stories about Hillary and I sigh. It’s clearly a double standard.

  60. 60.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Adam L Silverman: That’a a good question. I have a feeling he couldn’t get enough on the record sources and/or enough support from his editors.

    Woodward says the first time Deep Throat contacted him was in 1972 to tell him Spiro Agnew was under investigation for taking bribes. Woodward said he tried hard to find sources that would go on the record (directly or indirectly) and no one would. So he couldn’t report a bombshell that would result in a conviction only a year later..

  61. 61.

    Another Scott

    @moops: Interesting theory, and maybe it’ll play out that way, but that doesn’t sound like the Mueller we’ve been told the man is like:

    He earned a reputation as a no-nonsense, straight-laced attorney and investigator, as well as the nickname “Bobby Three Sticks”—a nod to his suffix.[2][3][4] Lauded for his non-partisan and non-political approach, he has been credited with transforming the FBI from an agency primarily focused on law enforcement into one of the world’s top organizations handling counterespionage and counterterrorism.[5]
    […]

    Mueller, along with deputy attorney general James Comey, threatened to resign from office, in March 2004, if the White House overruled a Department of Justice finding that domestic wiretapping without a court warrant was unconstitutional.[25] Attorney General John Ashcroft denied his consent to attempts by White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card and White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales to waive the Justice Department ruling and permit the domestic warrantless eavesdropping program to proceed. On March 12, 2004, George W. Bush gave his support to changes in the program sufficient to satisfy the concerns of Mueller, Ashcroft and Comey.[25]

    I assume his team will follow every lead no matter where they lead. The actual charges that result are anyone’s guess at this point.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  64. 64.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Adam L Silverman: I wouldn’t trust anything that person said. It drops Bernie things everywhere, He is anti, but he brings him up all the time. I do not think that s/he is a honest commenter. I back distrusting, but not rejecting.

  65. 65.

    Yarrow

    @GregB:

    Is it time to name this scandal: Moron-Gate?

    It’s too big a scandal to be a ‘gate.’ It needs its own name. Trump Treason scandal. Trump Russia scandal. Something.

  66. 66.

    moops

    @Omnes Omnibus: Mueller beefed up his team with financial experts over the July 4 break. McConnell and Ryan will let Mueller run his game on money laundering, since they are not guilty of that specific crime themselves. Mueller isn’t a partisan angler like Starr with his Party backing any dumb thing he finds. He won’t try for treason. Comey was shut down because of Russia, but not treason or elections.

  68. 68.

    moops

    the traitor meme would be something based on Trump’s own TwitterBarfs.

    perhaps @realTreason

  70. 70.

    efgoldman

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I say that you are wrong.

    In what way? That Mueller won’t go that far, or that he’ll take it wherever, and to whoever, it goes?
    There’s a lefty conspiracy theorist commenter elsewhere who posts about twice a week that the fix is in, because Mueller’s a Republiklown. That ignores all the real pros he’s hired, mostly at reductions in pay, for his team. If he’s not serious, we’ll see a lot of public resignations. I think he is serious, and I think we’ll see nothing of the kind.

  72. 72.

    Yarrow

    @MisterForkbeard:

    The whole team would go down, including Trump and likely Pence.

    Yes. Exactly. They’re all guilty. Pence was brought into the campaign by Manafort. Sessions pushed for Carter Page. They’re all guilty. They’ll all go down.

    Ryan and McConnell will go down as well. They knew and are also traitors. There are reasons they’re not pushing Trump out. They can’t because their traitors actions will be revealed if they do.

  73. 73.

    Adam L Silverman

    @moops: McConnell and Ryan have no say in what Mueller does. Nor any ability to control him or his investigation.

  75. 75.

    Anne Laurie

    @Jay Noble:

    Wasn’t that one of O’Keefe’s little sting operations?

    Too lazy to google, but I think you’re right. IIRC, yet another O’Keefe #fail — his proudboys tried to get the vile Hillary staffers to sell swag to a self-professed foreigner, and the staffers turned them down. And then they tried to be helpful, told the ‘trickster’ they could ask an American to buy the goods for them, which Jimmy the Rat failed to make sound nearly as dark and dirty as he needed. Especially (again, IIRC) when a third-party American journalist actually bought some button or bumper sticker and gave it to the “Canadian”, which — again — is not only legal, but more indicative of innocence than vile intent.

  78. 78.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Yarrow: It’d be difficult to prove anything about Ryan and McConnell with what we know now, even if this reporter’s claims are proven. It’s obvious in retrospect that they just didn’t care, but trying to shut down public warnings and ignoring Trump’s actions for partisan reasons isn’t strictly speaking a crime.

    If they had any morals at all, they’d resign. If their caucuses had any morals, they’d kick them out of leadership. But we know those aren’t going to happen.

  79. 79.

    moops

    It sort of needs that “real” in front of Treason to get through to the Fake News crowd that this isn’t some dumb biased sources BS. This stuff is real, actual, treason. Collaborating with agents of a foreign hostile government in an actual election that JUST HAPPENED. This isn’t “oh, Nixon colluded with foreign agents way back then, let’s move on”

    I hate hashtagging things, as the space is a mess, but Trumpf uses that media, and it is a big part of his undoing. Like Nixon’s Tapes, Twitter is Donald’s guilty perversion. Nixon was paranoid, hence the Tapes. Donald is a narcissist, and hence Twitter. Their technology choice for sabotaging themselves reflects their own character flaws.

  80. 80.

    Yarrow

    @moops: Don’t forget NY AG Schneiderman. State charges are also coming. They’ll include money laundering and other financial crimes.

  81. 81.

    patrick II

    Is there any reason to prosecute these guys before Jan 21, 2021? As long as there is a republican president there will be pardons. Can we hold off that long? make a deal with republicans?

    Can we still find a jury that will convict Trump and his clan for anything, including murder in front of Trump Tower?

  82. 82.

    PJ

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Masha Gessen, who is no fan of Putin, has also pooh-poohed talk of collusion as a fantasy and a distraction from the reality that a huge number of Americans wanted Trump to be President. I think this is completely wrong (all of the evidence we’ve seen indicates, if not direct collusion between Trump and the Russians, at least collusion between his people (and members of the Republican Party) and the Russians, and an obvious willingness to use whatever the Russians give them, and to refuse to call the Russians on any of their violations), but there is a strong tendency to believe fanciful conspiracy theories in Eastern Europe, and Gessen (and maybe Taibbi, who spent close to a decade in Russia) may be so inculcated to dismissing these theories that they have a knee-jerk reaction to it applied to events here.

    ETA: Some of this skepticism about pursuing the trail of collusion may also be because, for several generations, Eastern Europeans could never expect their Ministries of Justice to prosecute anything that would harm those in power.

  83. 83.

    Adam L Silverman

    @BBA: Congress is not going to defund either the DOJ or the FBI over this. Deputy AG Rosenstein has already signed the memorandum of understanding providing Mueller with the resources he needs for as long as he needs them. At the rate they’re going McConnell and Ryan are going to be lucky to get a Continuing Resolution and debt ceiling increase in place before everything shuts down and the wheels fall off in October.

  84. 84.

    Yarrow

    @MisterForkbeard: I like that. I still think it needs its own name. Iran Contra has its own name. Wasn’t a “gate.” Or a “dome.” it’s certainly too big to be a “gate.” Watergate is tiny and insignificant by comparison.

  85. 85.

    moops

    @Adam L Silverman: If you think Mueller is going to indict Trump without first having him impeached then you are out there for free thinking. You think Trump can be indicted as a sitting President?

    impeachment is a political act, so Ryan and McConnell have all the levers in their hands.

  86. 86.

    BBA

    @moops:

    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

    I don’t think this meets the standard. Putin is a snake but he’s not actually at war with us.

  87. 87.

    H.E.Wolf

    Adam, thank you for this excellent, informative post! Much appreciated.

    Regarding the date “June 9, 2017”, which shows up immediately before your list of questions – is it possible that 2016 was meant, as stated in the first item in your list?

    If so, could that reference please be updated? I think we’ll be linking back to this post in future, and it would be nice to have the timeline as clear as possible….

  88. 88.

    jl

    @Adam L Silverman:

    ” And he didn’t think it was important to report this until a year later? ”

    I don’t remember hearing about Jared Yates Sexton before. But in his twitter feed he claims he reported on it at the time. I can’t find in his twitter feed where he reported it or exactly what he reported.

  89. 89.

    efgoldman

    @patrick II:

    As long as there is a republican president there will be pardons.

    Maybe, maybe not. Their lawyers all understand, even if the crime family does not, that pardons are a double-edged sword.

    Can we still find a jury that will convict Trump and his clan for anything

    In NYC? Probably harder to find one that would acquit.

  90. 90.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @moops: Its gonna look real bad for McConnell and Ryan if Mueller uncovers solid evidence of treason by Trump and the campaign. The pressure to impeach will be tremendous and if they don’t 2018 and 2020 will be when they are destroyed electorally

  91. 91.

    MisterForkbeard

    @BBA: If I were to play a not-a-lawyer Devil’s Advocate, I’d say assisting Putin in committing an act of war (attacking our election) might serve as a treason even if a war was not previously declared.

  92. 92.

    Yarrow

    @MisterForkbeard: There’s more there. I’ll mention again how ashen-faced and shaken McConnell looked in December when he abruptly changed his tune from “no investigations” to “okay, I’ll allow limited investigations.” He looked like he was in a hostage video. There’s something big on him and he got a hint of it and decided he would be better off allowing investigations in hopes of controlling them to protect himself or perhaps his family. I don’t think it’ll work for him but whatever he’s hiding, it’s big.

  93. 93.

    PJ

    @moops: Schneiderman can certainly indict Trump. And Trump will almost certainly refuse to acknowledge it. I guess that’s one for Neil Gorsuch to weigh.

  95. 95.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @BBA: Its treason by any rational standard. Anyway, Trump’s gross incompetence is an impeachable offense. The Republicans are mainly protecting him because they fear backlash (perhaps violent) from Trump’s supporters. It’s also possible, that if Trump goes down then so does much of the GOP and related rightwing orgs

  96. 96.

    Adam L Silverman

    @moops: I don’t think that, nor did I indicate that. It doesn’t mean that Mueller doesn’t build and then make the case. Moreover, it is not settled law, Constitutional or statutory, that a President cannot be indicted for a Federal crime. The legal scholarship is all over the map. All we do know is that it has never been done and that the lawyers working for the prosecutors during the Watergate investigation that argued for Nixon to be indicted while still in office were overruled at that time. Do I expect Mueller will do something that’s never been done before? No. Do I expect he’ll build the best case he can after he and his team review everything they can given that they’ll need to find unclassified corroboration for every piece of classified material they’ll have access to as a result of the counterintelligence investigation and then make the case and let the system play out? Yes I do. Simply stating he’s going to constrain himself just as he’s getting started is silly. Moreover, this isn’t going to be quick. CI investigations take a lot of time. CI investigations that lead to criminal charges take even longer as you have to match unclassified corroborating evidence to each piece of classified intel to make the legal case. I honestly have no idea how it will all play out. But nothing in Mueller’s record leads me to believe he’s simply going to shrug his shoulders and go “meh”.

  97. 97.

    moops

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:

    The GOP rolled and let the prosecutors take Agnew, then Nixon, and the GOP was MURDERED in the following election. They learned their lesson. Never give it up. Party first. Show weakness and they gut you at the election booth anyways. The electorate does not reward patriots that take down their own corrupt fellows. They assume, rightly, that the bastards knew all along and only acted as desperate fools. Obstruction is the Rule. The fire has to die down eventually and maybe it won’t take me with it.

  98. 98.

    Barbara

    @efgoldman: According to the people who appeared on the 11th Hour with Brian Williams it does, because it is illegal to solicit anything of value, which would include services (e.g., the service of digging up and providing opposition research). There is a “willfulness” component (mens rea — which Williams admitted he didn’t really understand). So not ipso facto illegal, but illegal if done knowingly. You might not know that something or someone was foreign, or that someone foreign would show up and donate to you (which is what happened to Al Gore in 2000).

  99. 99.

    Yarrow

    @PJ: I would love it if Gorsuch’s nomination to the court was deemed invalid because the entire election was compromised.

  102. 102.

    BBA

    @Adam L Silverman: I mean conditional defunding. Just stick a “provided, that no moneys shall be appropriated for any investigation performed by [whatever Mueller’s title is]” into the bill. Nobody reads those things.

    Or they could gut civil service protections. Or do lots of other things. If they’re more afraid of being primaried than losing their majorities (probably accurate) and the base still loves Trump, they can find some way to make this disappear.

  104. 104.

    Barbara

    @dmsilev: Republicans went bananas when it was discovered that Gore’s campaign unwittingly accepted donations that were (I believe) from Chinese nationals. The donors didn’t understand the law, and the donee didn’t realize the donations were from a foreign source.

  105. 105.

    moops

    @Adam L Silverman: I don’t see Mueller starting an investigation he can’t bring to a close. If “Take Time” spans several administrations, then it pretty much is not going to happen. Do I see Mueller attempting what hasn’t been done before? not really. nothing in his record indicates he gambles like that.

  106. 106.

    Yarrow

    @BBA:

    If they’re more afraid of being primaried than losing their majorities (probably accurate) and the base still loves Trump, they can find some way to make this disappear.

    Ultimately they may be more afraid of going to prison than anything else.

  107. 107.

    GregB

    The GOP leadership is having their Grand Moff Tarkin moment regarding Trump, their electoral victory, their plans and their hubris.

    In our moment of triumph?

  108. 108.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @moops: The fire will not die down over this. The ICs, foreign allied ICs, and we, the Resistance, will not let this thing die. I firmly believe that is this continues on the way it is, with the GOP retaining complete control over the governmet through voter supression aided by Russia, there will come violence. Mercer money won’t save them then

  109. 109.

    Adam L Silverman

    @BBA: Not going to happen. They’re going to have enough trouble keeping the lights on as it is.

  110. 110.

    Adam L Silverman

    @moops: Nothing at all. Just running into heavy enemy fire to rescue a bunch of wounded American service members.

    It is his job to investigate and make a case. Some of that case will be made in criminal prosecutions. Some may be made in referring to Congress a report that would drive impeachment. I expect he’ll do both.

  112. 112.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @BBA: There will be an outcry if that happens. They can’t brazen that out. It would look like their hiding something.

  113. 113.

    efgoldman

    @moops:

    You think Trump can be indicted as a sitting President?

    We might find out in NY state court. Agnew would be the precedent. It’s never been tried.
    Anyway, when he’s left in the WH all by himself, with his whole crime family and hangers-on in orange jumpsuits (by the best designers, made in Bangladesh) his position becomes untenable, even for an old, dementia-ridden pure narcissist. He’d say his job is done, and a huge success, and back to the tower with him.
    Anyway, regardless of the legal hassles, I still think he’s leaving the WH on a gurney.

  114. 114.

    Barbara

    @Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): Matt Taibbi gave up even trying to find a way forward in favor of a permanent home spewing insults — witty, acerbic and often accurate insults, but it’s like there is some journalistic equivalent to Paul’s epistle to the Corinthians on truth and wisdom without love being nothing more than clanging gibberish. Taibbi hasn’t found it and it makes his work increasingly unreadable.

  115. 115.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @efgoldman:

    Anyway, regardless of the legal hassles, I still think he’s leaving the WH on a gurney.

    Hopefully from a massive stroke or heart attack

  116. 116.

    jl

    Thinking about the lawyer talk above. Seems like Donald Jr. was pretty knowing. He decided to write a snarky tweet about of course he knew what the meeting was about, just gettin’ him some oppo for his pop’s campaign, and so what, you dummies? So he violated the law in knowingly soliciting aid from a foreign national.

    But, then, this is the Trump era. We have to worry about if a person is competent and really means it when they type out statements of fact on twitter. If reality is really real. We have become collective experts at the political and legal ‘non-denial denial’. I suspect we will become experts at the political and legal ‘non-admission admission’. Maybe we already have become collective suckers for it.

  119. 119.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @PJ: I wonder, if Trump has dementia, that he’ll become increasingly erratic to the point that even Putin is freaked out by him after Trump does something completely nuts/threatens Russia(Putin) itself?

  120. 120.

    efgoldman

    @moops:

    The GOP rolled and let the prosecutors take Agnew, then Nixon, and the GOP was MURDERED in the following election. They learned their lesson. Never give it up.

    Correlation is not causality.
    They got swamped in ’76 because Tricksie Dicksie and the whole crew were obviously guilty, Before they got around to him, the prosecutor’s office had indicted more than 60 people, including two attorneys general, an FBI head, and his top two WH advisors, and convicted or obtained guilty pleas from almost 50 of them. This was not a “roll” by the GOP; they didn’t “let” the prosecutors “take” anybody.

  121. 121.

    Yarrow

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: It seems that one of the roles of Ivanka and probably Jared is to keep Trump focused, prompt him when need be, get him out of situations when his dementia becomes too obvious–the usual things family members do for their older relatives who are showing signs of memory issues. If Ivanka and Jared are under investigation and perhaps even have to leave the WH, that will leave Trump much more vulnerable.

  124. 124.

    Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)

    @Barbara: You’re always worth reading.

    The punchline here is that Taibbi and objectively-a-fucking-monster Mark Ames ran their eXile publication while in Russia during the late-’90s to early -’00s, and until fairly recently (re: last year) Matt has historically been a strong critic of Putin’s rule. The punchline to the punchline, is that for all its muckraking aspirations the eXile was never all that effectual (as evidenced by the fact that they never seem to have been in real danger while the mag was running).

  125. 125.

    John Weiss

    Most folk here are outraged. I share that. But my overwhelming feeling about dis shit is heartbreak. I love my country and villains are doing their best to ruin it. If I were a young man, I’d break shit.

    jw

  128. 128.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Manyakitty: Gessen hasn’t really said it’s a fantasy and a distraction, just that it seems to her to be very unlikely and not worth betting the farm on, at least from what I’ve read. It’s unfair to put her and Taibbi in the same corner here.

  130. 130.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Manyakitty: I haven’t liked Taibbi ever since I realized his hat:cattle ratio was way off a few years ago… Ioffe would be the best I guess, but Gessen also brings a valuable point of view and good experience even if I disagree with her. Still, one of these people doesn’t really belong on this list.

  131. 131.

    jl

    @PJ:

    I think there is a danger of obsessing with possible Trump collusion with Russia as some kind of slam dunk gotcha that will solve things. That would be a mistake.
    But it is kind of important to know that the Trump inner circle doesn’t really care about the law.

    I think important to remember to also focus on Trump policy actions on Russia like attempt to unilaterally lift sanctions for nothing in return, very dangerous statements regarding NATO, attempts to undermine EU and UN, that are bad, regardless of whether there was a deal or not. Also GOP attempts to loot the country at the expense of health care for millions of people. And there is the threat of Russian meddling in upcoming elections, regardless of a Trump/Russian deal. I think that is a big issue in and of itself. To my mind, the fact that Trump is obstructing that is enough to throw him out of office for legitimate grounds through impeachment and conviction in Senate.

    Trump administration is so bad in so many ways, it’s hard to remember them all. But we have to confront them all. What is going on wrt to Trump and Putin/Russia is part of that. But if no big public indictments or referrals or findings come out of the investigations before 2018 or 2020, obsessing over Trump and Russia won’t produce some big gotcha for the GOP that will make a big dent in their Congressional power. So, there is a danger in depending too much on revelations of possible, or at this point, probable, Trump/Russia collusion to get us out of this jam.

    @Major Major Major Major: If that is what Gessen is saying, then I agree.

  132. 132.

    hitchhiker

    In a couple of years, assuming we’re all still here & allowed to talk in this way, we’re still going to be smacking our foreheads and asking one another if that all really happened.

    The dark outlook is that we’re the Germans in the late ’30s who just could not credit what they were witnessing enough to do anything about it. This morning’s news about that poll showing more than half of self-identified Republicans think colleges and universities are a negative influence on the country made me think of the contempt for intellectuals (Jewish, especially, but not only them) at that time.

    I never anticipated being in a hated group.

  133. 133.

    Brachiator

    The view from the ground. I hear Trump supporters on local radio say, “Trump was a businessman; of course he did not know about all these complex and silly laws about dealing with foreigners.”

    We’re about two steps away from, “Well, Trump is a tough, successful businessman who is used to breaking the law. It is stupid to expect him to be honest or ethical. But this just means that he is going to help rebuild America no matter what the laws say. Laws don’t matter. Only Trump matters.”

  134. 134.

    jl

    One possibility is that Putin and/or Russian oligarchs tried to collude but Trumpsters are such stumble bums, they were more the passive partner in the deal. I can imagine voters beginning to feel sorry for them. Or enough voters degraded and deranged enough to start feeling like Trump did pretty good, if he or his buddies, hypothetically, got a lot of cash wired to various slush funds hidden around the countryside, and all they really did was sit around and not do much of anything.

    A good collusion takes two competent parties. I guess would be interesting if when Manafort left, the possibility of the Trumpster being active partners in any kind of crime of commission evaporated. Maybe the Trumpsters thought, well we’ll throw Manafort overboard and enjoy the spoils, what he (not us! not us!) already got out of the Russians. They’d still be guilty of conspiracy and serious election law crimes, of course.

    So, there are important reasons to focus on real policy issues as well as the Trump collusion, whether that collusion was dastardly and fell, or daffy and pathetically incompetent and half-baked.

    But, any Trump/Russian collusion, either implicit or explicit, that might affect future election has to be top priority and news about that has to be blasted out at eleven.

  135. 135.

    p.a.

    If (I truly hope when) this gvt of corruptards crashes down, I’m worried some of the ‘2nd Amendment Solution’ fucks might not be all talk. Don’t care what happens to them, but innocent people could get hurt.

  138. 138.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @hitchhiker:
    I grew up in the South, so I knew from childhood how conservatives hate absolutely everyone who is not like them. John’s post about ‘they hate you’ was not at all hyperbolic. If you are not a white conservative male, a double-digit proportion of the American population actively wants you to suffer and die as The Enemy.

    @Brachiator:
    We’re already there. That reasoning is out and about, that laws do not matter, only Trump matters. (It’s worth noting that it’s not about Trump, but the asshole ignorant racism he represents.) With every revelation, the population thinking that way gets smaller, and everyone else gets more pissed off. Congress has never, ever, seen anything like the angry pushback since Trump was elected. Previous telephone complaint records were shattered, and it hasn’t stopped. This is a polarization process, and until now they have relied on being the only passionately angry side.

  139. 139.

    PJ

    @Major Major Major Major: At a talk I saw with her and Timothy Snyder, if she didn’t use those exact words, that was the implication – that there was probably nothing there, and if there was something there, an investigation was not going to solve, or resolve anything – it was just a big sideshow for liberals to get worked up about.

  140. 140.

    LosGatosCA

    @Yarrow:

    The Democrats should already be mapping out a counter-strategy on ‘The Trump Judges’ – I am assuming he gets to appoint 2 more before 2020.

    The election, Trump, the judges he appoints need to be discredited and those folks hounded out of public office. The drumbeat has to be constant and loud.

  141. 141.

    jl

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    ” With every revelation, the population thinking that way gets smaller, and everyone else gets more pissed off. Congress has never, ever, seen anything like the angry pushback since Trump was elected. Previous telephone complaint records were shattered, and it hasn’t stopped. This is a polarization process, and until now they have relied on being the only passionately angry side. ”

    That is the important thing, to do whatever possible to keep the Trumpsters and fellow travelers in the minority. Looks like 40 percent is the new ceiling for Trump approval. We need to talk with any person willing to listen about how awful Trump and the GOP has been in every way, to get the ceiling down to 35 percent, and then lower, and firmly tie the GOP to Trump, which is exactly where it belongs.

  142. 142.

    Mike in DC

    In theory, you could indict the President, and defer the actual proceedings until such time as they have left office. Indeed, there could be valid reasons for issuing the indictment before departure–the statute of limitations on many federal crimes run 5 years, and if these are crimes committed in 2015 or 2016, its possible the statute could lapse while POTUS is in office.
    Further, even a veiled threat to indict could spur the Congress to act. Its a lose-lose scenario…run for office while the head of your party faces multiple criminal charges, or remove your own leader from office. But the former is certain doom, and the latter might be survivable.

  143. 143.

    Mike in DC

    In theory, you could indict the President, and defer the actual proceedings until such time as they have left office. Indeed, there could be valid reasons for issuing the indictment before departure–the statute of limitations on many federal crimes run 5 years, and if these are crimes committed in 2015 or 2016, its possible the statute could lapse while Trump is in office.
    Further, even a veiled threat to indict could spur the Congress to act. Its a lose-lose scenario…run for office while the head of your party faces multiple criminal charges, or remove your own leader from office. But the former is certain doom, and the latter might be survivable.

  144. 144.

    hitchhiker

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I grew up in the South, so I knew from childhood how conservatives hate absolutely everyone who is not like them. John’s post about ‘they hate you’ was not at all hyperbolic. If you are not a white conservative male, a double-digit proportion of the American population actively wants you to suffer and die as The Enemy.

    White girl here, raised in the 50s/60s upper peninsula of Michigan, at the time one of the most homogeneous white places in the country. I didn’t know a single Jewish, Asian, Black, Hispanic, Middle-Eastern person — I never even SAW anybody who wasn’t white until I was well into my teens. They weren’t hiding; they just weren’t there. I’ve slowly understood that the south is a foreign country to me, or, to be more accurate, I am a foreigner to the true believers there. For the longest time, it just didn’t compute. I missed John’s post — have to go find it.

    This one? https://balloon-juice.com/2012/02/05/they-fucking-hate-you/

  145. 145.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @hitchhiker:
    That one. John describes how they feel eloquently. If you accept this is true, Trump’s election is not weird at all, nor are the GOP’s insane policies. I lived among these people most of my life, and his description is completely accurate.

    There are a LOT of these people, but we outvoted them by 2.8 million, and those numbers only keep sliding our way. We can win this.

  146. 146.

    TenguPhule

    Were the Russians successful, did the Trump campaign reciprocate?

    Yes to all of the above, Katie.

  147. 147.

    TenguPhule

    @moops:

    The IC is *really* trying to steer things back to treason, but Mueller won’t go after treason, since Congress and Senate won’t back him. Treason will poison the GOP. It will scoop up Sessions, and Ryan, and other GOP party big hitters. Not going to happen. Mueller knows the GOP is a mess of compromised politicians, and he also knows he can’t go after them.

    Look, either we have nation where laws mean something, or we don’t.

    And if we don’t, It’s Civil War. That’s what its going to boil down to.

    The Republicans go down in flames or the Nation catches fire.

  148. 148.

    TenguPhule

    @Adam L Silverman:

    At the rate they’re going McConnell and Ryan are going to be lucky to get a Continuing Resolution and debt ceiling increase in place before everything shuts down and the wheels fall off in October.

    Behind the times, Adam. Wheels fall off and engine blows up end of THIS month because tax receipts are “unexpectedly lower then projected”.

  149. 149.

    debbie

    I don’t see anyone addressing the real issue: What the hell is he wearing? That looks like a woman’s collar.

  150. 150.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Frankensteinbeck: Only if they don’t keep us from voting. The special elections suggested that the effect on turnout hasn’t been that large, and the bogus fraud commission has Democrats actively trying to remove themselves from the voter rolls to protect their privacy, which I suspect was the actual purpose.

  151. 151.

    hitchhiker

    @Matt McIrvin:

    All the talking heads/insiders keep saying that the level of passion on our side is unprecedented. Massive efforts & $$ in a few special elections would seem to support those claims, tho’ losing them all might have taken some of the air out. What I think now is that we really will be talking about something like civil war if their voter suppression tactics manage to subvert the popular will in 2018. Some of us who counted on our neighbors in other states to hold a recognizable version of “the common good” have finally realized that we’re not in their version. They want us to suffer.

    I know it sounds naive, but I really did just figure that out.

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