UPDATE: Sessions not disclosing contacts w/Russians because it would invade his "personal privacy" https://t.co/AOWJU8xn2R
— Judd Legum (@JuddLegum) July 13, 2017
… The Thursday morning “disclosure” comes in response to a lawsuit from an ethics watchdog group.
According to NPR, a “recently-launched ethics watchdog group called American Oversight filed a Freedom of Information Act request in March for sections of the Standard Form 86 [i.e., security clearance] relating to Sessions’ contacts ‘with any official of the Russian government.’” On June 12, a judge ordered the DOJ to comply with the request within 30 days…
On Thursday morning, the DOJ finally made an attempt to comply with the court order by disclosing a single page document that is almost totally redacted. The one exception is a box checked ‘No,’ indicating Sessions has not had contact with a foreign government in the last seven years.
Citing a DOJ spokesman, Natasha Bertrand of Business Insider reports that the former senator from Alabama is intentionally omitting meetings he had with Russian officials, including Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak…
But it is not clear Sessions was acting in his official capacity when he met with Kislyak during the campaign. As the Wall Street Journal has reported, one of Sessions’ meetings with Kislyak happened at the Republican National Convention — an event Sessions traveled to and from using campaign funds. What’s more, a person who was at the RNC told the Journal that Sessions and Kislyak discussed the Trump campaign…
The Attorney General is defying a court order. Also, a reminder Sessions committed perjury during his confirmation hearings. https://t.co/eD4BVSJVls
— Steven Santos (@stevensantos) July 13, 2017
Sessions abruptly settled a massive Russian fraud case involving …wait for it… the lawyer who met with Trump Jr. https://t.co/iSRyu5lo91
— Robbie Gramer (@RobbieGramer) July 13, 2017
Democratic congressmen on the House Judiciary Committee want to know why Attorney General Jeff Sessions abruptly settled a money laundering case in May involving the same Russian attorney who met with Donald Trump Jr. during the presidential election to offer “dirt” on Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton.
The civil forfeiture case was filed in 2013 by Preet Bharara, the former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York — who was fired by Trump in March. The case alleged that 11 companies were involved in a tax fraud in Russia and then laundered a portion of the $230 million they got into Manhattan real estate.
The forfeiture case was heralded at the time as “a significant step towards uncovering and unwinding a complex money laundering scheme arising from a notorious foreign fraud,” Bharara said. “As alleged, a Russian criminal enterprise sought to launder some of its billions in ill-gotten rubles through the purchase of pricey Manhattan real estate.”
But Instead of proceeding with the trial as scheduled, the Trump Justice Department settled the case two days before it was due to begin. By then, Bharara had already been axed by the president. Bharara’s assistant did not immediately respond to request for comment…
The Russian attorney who uncovered the tax fraud scheme, Sergei Magnitsky, mysteriously died in prison. As a result, U.S. lawmakers passed the Magnitsky Act, which levied sanctions on Russian officials—sanctions that Natalia Veselnitskaya, a Russian attorney, worked to reverse.
Also the attorney representing the Russian companies in the DOJ case, Veselnitskaya, is the same one who organized a meeting with Donald Trump, Jr. and top Trump campaign officials in June 2016 to offer material that could “incriminate” Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. “Love it,” responded Trump, Jr. to an intermediary.
Sessions just abruptly dismissed a Russian money laundering case. Guess who the lawyer was – Veselnitskaya! https://t.co/1CaxdaPEQL
— Amy Siskind (@Amy_Siskind) July 12, 2017
Be sure thy sins will find thee out, Mr. Sessions.
Give the Russians this much credit: When it comes to soliciting corruption, they are nothing if not thorough.
Gin & Tonic
Bullshit. He was tortured to death. No mystery about it.
efgoldman
If they croak the right people for the wrong or ancillary reasons (i.e. Evil Leprechaun’s racism won’t enter into it) that’s fine with me, as long as they’ve got orange coveralls and shackles that fit.
ETA: The pure, conceited arrogance of these RWNJ assholes!
Omnes Omnibus
Screaming.
Yarrow
It would be much easier to count the members of the Trump administration, Trump family, and GOP leadership who don’t have close ties to Russia. So many traitors.
Jeffro
I believe Adam’s phrase, applicable here, is “penetration at all levels”. It’s somehow even more galling that the fucking Russians were able to install their pet AG than their pet POTUS. One is a figurehead representing a coalition of interests; one actually has the ability on a daily basis to do great harm to actual citizens of this country.
Apparently Sessions was penetrated more deeply than most of the rest of them. No, I’m not sorry for that image.
Brachiator
WTF?
Is there anyone in this administration who was not bought off by the Russians?
E
Why is it so hard for people to understand how innocent and well intentioned all of this was, that the Russians just want to make America great again?
Yarrow
@Brachiator: Pretty much no. Plus a good chunk of the GOP.
GxB
@Omnes Omnibus: I got that far too, before “Oh fuck this bullshit!” came out reflexively. I wonder what the LD50 on bullshit is, cuz surely we’re going to have an OD soon.
TriassicSands
I really want to know what Sessions looks like in orange. Or whatever is in fashion at the federal prison he needs to inhabit for a few years.
Yarrow
@Omnes Omnibus: Remember how he didn’t want Kamala Harris asking him too many questions too quickly because it made him nervous. He’s quite the delicate flower.
tobie
I don’t get this. Wasn’t Sessions an advisor to the campaign? It was in the context of the campaign that he met Kisylak. It’s not like the two just happened to run into each other at the local beekeeper’s association meeting.
Yarrow
@TriassicSands: I want to see him do a perp walk.
Yarrow
@tobie:
Not just an adviser, he chaired Trump’s foreign policy advisory committee. So it makes total sense he’d meet with Kislyak since they needed Russia to sign off on their foreign policy.
efgoldman
@Brachiator:
Maybe the new WH chef.
Maybe not.
lamh36
FUQN U.P.S.!!!
Was waiting all day for them to deliver my package. Tracking system said was out for delivery since 7:45AM!!
8:00pm dude come knocking on my door like the fuqn popo and then just sticking out his arm to hand me the damn thing one handed. then mumbled “have a good evening” like i inconvenienced him??????
like excuse me bish?? not my fault it seems like my area always the last on the fuqn route.
Anyway, at least i for my package and didn’t have to pick the shit up after work tmrw. fuqn package is heavy.
Got myself a lil 32′ flat screen for the lil bedroom. Perfect fit for the distance from top of my bed to the screen
Omnes Omnibus
@GxB: If you want the job, then fucking comply with the requirements of getting it. If your privacy is more important than the job, then don’t take the job. I have walked away from job offers because I was unwilling or unable, for different reasons at different times, to comply with some rule or requirement. I wasn’t a sitting senator with a virtual seat for life when I did it. Sessions walked into this with his eyes wide closed. Fuck him.
TriassicSands
@Yarrow:
That’s why he’s going to need to have a 350 pound roommate, preferably a person of color, to watch out for him in prison. I’d even be willing to start a GoFundMe for a case of EZ-Lube just to make his stay in prison go more smoothly. So to speak.
albertZ
There isn’t really a loyalty test so much as an “I’m as fucked as you are if any of this gets out test” when it comes to this administration. Am I getting that right?
TriassicSands
@Yarrow:
Sign off? They needed Russia to formulate it. None of those bozos know anything about foreign policy. Trump thinks foreign policy is getting governments to let him screw over locals so he can build another golf course.
Wag
@Yarrow:
I think we’re left with Tiffany and Bannon.
Yarrow
@albertZ: Yes, that is correct. One goes down they all go down.
lamh36
Have we talked about Michelle O on the Espys last night!!!
Michelle Obama Returns to Our Lives in Cushnie et Ochs at the 2017 ESPY Awards
Yarrow
@Wag: Yes, Tiffany and Barron are supposedly not involved. Notably, they’re also not involved in his administration.
Omnes Omnibus
@TriassicSands: Not funny. Please don’t do rape jokes of any kind.
Redshift
How is this in any way relevant to the question “List any contacts with officials of a foreign government in the last seven years”?
It’s a security clearance form, not a campaign disclosure form. There’s no “only doing it as a senator” exception.
Another Scott
Today Drum talks about something other than the horrible Senate bill and Russia buying Trump. But it’s probably related, somehow… DryShips weirdness:
A bunch of people need to go to jail for this or the US stock market is going end up being little more than another bitcoin fraud.
Cheers,
Scott.
(“You mean you think it isn’t already??”)
randy khan
Federal courts don’t generally take kindly to people not complying with their orders.
Wag
@Yarrow:
Nor is daddy involved in either of their lives.
gratuitous
@Redshift: I wonder which word, “any” or “contacts” has the Attorney General so baffled?
Omnes Omnibus
@TriassicSands: Mattis and McMaster do. I am not sure anymore that they are a brake on dipshtery, but they do know foreign policy.
Yarrow
@lamh36: She’s gorgeous. I miss the Obamas so much.
efgoldman
@albertZ:
My mind keeps going back ~40 years.
~60 people indicted, almost 50 guilty pleas or convictions.
President
VP
Two attorneys general
Two FBI heads
Top two WH aides
And a cast of dozens.
This one’s going to be worse when it’s over
It’s going to include “the president’s” family, and members of congress/senate, too.
Maybe fewer people, but worse institutional rot.
Watergate was also a truly bipartisan investigation, with congressional/senate leaders from both parties. No way we’re seeing that, this time. It’s all going to have to come from Mueller/DOJ.
Anne Laurie
@tobie:
If he was meeting the Russian ambassador as part of his official Senate duties, then he gets to redact the paperwork. If he was just another GOP campaign thug looking to ratfvck the Democrats, his “personal life” becomes a matter of public record.
I remember this distinction being discussed exhaustively during his confirmation hearings. The other GOP Senators were shocked, shocked that that mean Kamala Harris kept acting like a prosecutor, instead of understanding that (white male) Senators are privileged individuals.
westyny
If you could look up “little pri*k” in the dictionary I swear his picture would be the illustration.
Yarrow
@efgoldman:
Way worse because this one involves treason. I think the GOP as an entity is going to be in trouble. Priebus’s name hasn’t really come up yet but it will. He knew what was happening and he ran the RNC. It’s going to get a lot worse before it’s over.
efgoldman
@Anne Laurie:
That’s white, male RWNJ senators, of course. They wouldn’t give a shit if Harris was rude to, say, Al Franken or Sheldon Whitehouse.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
If the attorney general is refusing to comply with a court order, why should I obey the law?
Mike in NC
Per the front page of USA Today, Fat Bastard’s supporters along the Tennessee/Alabama won’t desert him under any circumstances at all. They smoke a lot and have serious health problems, but Trump hates the same people they do (Mexicans, Muslims, etc.), so those rednecks are with him to the bitter end.
Another Scott
@albertZ: As others have reminded us today… WaPo:
(Emphasis added.)
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. They all knew. They didn’t care except to the extent that it might get leaked to the press. It was and is all about protecting their Little Boys Club. Who cares about rules and norms and the Constitution and the USA?
Grr…
Cheers,
Scott.
Anne Laurie
@efgoldman:
I’ll share a secret: My personal here-it-comes test will be when we hear Melania and Barron have taken a surprise trip to a foreign country… that doesn’t have extradition arrangements with U.S. authorities.
Mnemosyne
Imagine for a minute if Loretta Lynch had refused to comply with a court order about anything.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Anne Laurie:
My memory is fuzzy, but wasn’t that excuse that he was meeting with that Russian ambassador as apart of his senatorial duties debunked?
Mnemosyne
@Anne Laurie:
Melania has spousal immunity against testifying. Ivanka does not.
Yarrow
@Anne Laurie: Would we hear about such a trip? Why would they go? What role do you think Melania has? Is she his handler?
Felonius Monk
As if we needed anymore evidence that the Garden KKKnome of Injustice is a Shithead.
Anne Laurie
@Yarrow:
It’s being widely reported that Jared & Ivanka want Reince fired, cuz that will totally end all this vulgar attention to their very private affairs.
Which means either Priebus is another semi-innocent victim, or else he’s a lot subtler than he’s ever allowed the rest of us to know.
GregB
Make Eastasia great again!
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Yarrow:
Worse, as in (attempting) canceling the 2018 and 2020 elections?
Yarrow
@Anne Laurie: No, it means they have dirt on him and they want to make it public and blame him. They think they can pin it on him and take the attention off themselves. Isn’t going to work that way.
Omnes Omnibus
@Anne Laurie: This anti-Wisconsin bias shall not stand. Prosecute him with the others.
efgoldman
@Mnemosyne:
Hell, even Tricksie Dicksie, after appealing all the way up to SCOTUS, complied.
At the time, there was some trepidatious speculation that he might not, and an “omigod what if” vibe running around.
But for all his many faults, ultimately he was a smart enough lawyer and politician to give in.
Orange Julius is neither smart nor a lawyer. and has the attention span shorter than a toddler.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Anne Laurie:
What has Rinse Pubics done lately? He’s dropped off the face of the Earth the past six months. Javanka deserves all the press attention in the world. You know they appeared in a tv show once? For no real reason
Anne Laurie
@Mnemosyne:
Imagine if Lynch had even suggested she had the right to refuse to comply. The GOP would’ve tried to convene a retroactive impeachment trial no later than the next business day.
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Pssht, “debunked”. A lot of low Dem-symp legal scholars said it was the equivalent of the best organic fertilizer, but they didn’t understand IOKIYAR.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@GregB:
Make Oceania Great Again!
We have always been at war with Islam
tobie
@Anne Laurie:
Thanks…now I get the point of the article. The man who never met with ambassadors during his senate career suddenly claims he had several meetings with the Russian ambassador in 2016 exclusively as part of his senate duties. Go figure.
Yarrow
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Worse in that the president, the administration, his family, and the top GOP leadership along with some lesser GOP members and some Dems are guilty of treason. The GOP as an entity will be involved. There will be so many people involved that it has the potential upend our political system. What happens I don’t know.
Will the 2016 elections be invalidated by the Supreme Court? No facility for that in the Constitution, but perhaps states that have done that with some elections can be used as precedent. Will the 2018 elections be held under close scrutiny? Will nothing be done and we devolve into a non-democratic state? I just don’t know how it’s going to work out. We have never had something like this happen. Uncharted waters.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Yarrow: I want UN election observers. If we devolve into a sham democracy, my first impulse is to get the hell out and emigrate somewhere else: Maybe Australia or Canada. But then I always feel inevitably guilty for wanting to run away and leave those who can’t leave behind. Does that make me a coward?
Yarrow
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Remember when Reince Priebus went on that Middle East trip and then unexpectedly came back after one or two days. Weird, right? What was that about? He’s been pretty much MIA since then. Did he have to come back? Perhaps for a date with the FBI?
Sloegin
There might be a technicality on charging Sessions with treason, does anybody know if his great x? … grand pappy ever got around to taking the loyalty oath after the war?
efgoldman
@tobie:
Evil Leprechaun hired his own lawyer, right? So he doesn’t listen any better than the rest of them, or his attorney’s incompetent.
Yarrow
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I’d be for that. Bonus if they sent observers from African countries to the white areas in the traitor states.
efgoldman
@Yarrow:
Nope. Even a genuinely neutral court (which this one certainly isn’t) would say it’s a political, not judicial, issue to be decided by the political branches.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Yarrow: He’s heading for the exits I’m sure. Has he lawyered up yet?
Omnes Omnibus
@Sloegin: This would have what effect on Jeffy’s status, how?
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@lamh36: That sounds like a sweet plan.
As for the delivery: that shit is fucked up an’ shit.
Yarrow
@efgoldman: Apparently some states have invalidated election results due to some problems with elections. I don’t know the specifics but read a discussion about it. When there is no federal law or precedent the Supreme Court can look at state law for guidance, so this was the issue I saw the legal types discussing.
We are in an unprecedented situation. We may get to a point where the best choice is to have another election. If that’s the case then how does that happen. That could be the discussion.
Redshift
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I think the last significant thing he was involved in was when the asshole in chief ritually humiliated him by not letting him meet the Pope. Then he went home early and there were rumors (probably instigated by Jared’s camp) that he was about to be fired. That didn’t happen, and I’m guessing ever since he’s been allowed to retain his title as long as he doesn’t try to do his job.
Vhh
@efgoldman: There were over 100 indictments of Reagan admin officials and abt 60 convictions. A record. And the GOP likes to tout its law and order policies.
rikyrah
@lamh36:
Glad you got your tv, lamh ?
rikyrah
@lamh36:
Forever FLOTUS ?? ?
mouse tolliver
@Another Scott: What do you think would happen if Nancy Pelosi was caught on tape saying she thought Hillary’s email server threatened national security? I think Republicans would be on TV all day every day attacking Nancy Pelosi for colluding with “Crooked Hillary.”
Why haven’t Democrats exploited this bombshell? They should be on TV all day every day reminding all of America that even Republican leadership thinks Donald Trump is working for Vladimir Putin. This is political malpractice! How could Democrats allow this story to evaporate?
That’s not even a real a question. I know Democrats suck at messaging. So I guess the real question is What can we do to make this story go viral?
Anne Laurie
@Yarrow:
I’m prepared to be wrong, but I still think of Melania in medieval-history terms: She’s the aging baron’s last concubine-turned-wife, and this whole “run for President and win” stunt came as an unpleasant surprise. She was clearly miserable all during the campaign, and she’s done her best to stay away from the old man and keep her kid out of his court’s reach ever since the fateful day.
Did she know how deeply Trump and his “adult” children had gotten themselves under Putin’s thumb? Does it matter? Trump’s always insisted he married her for her “business savvy”, and after a dozen years sharing his bed, she must know a lot more dirt about his day-to-day business affairs than even the tabloids. (And, after all, she grew up as the child of a mid-level bureaucrat in a Russian satellite state.) One way or another, it was gonna end badly, and poor Barron isn’t old enough to protect himself from his half-siblings much less his father’s (other) enemies.
But we’re not, IMO, quite in Game of Thrones territory yet. If she’s actually a Putin-affiliated handler, she and her son end up quietly retired to some mid-level European ‘playground’ where she can keep up a reasonable imitation of her 2015 lifestyle, knowing she’s always within reach of retaliation should she get too talky. If she’s been “turned” by the US intelligence community, she & Barron end up — possibly through Witness Protection — someplace like Brazil or Costa Rica, ditto. In any case, I assume (sincerely hope) she’s stashed away whatever she can in secret accounts, just in case Donald fell afoul of his older kids or the many less-than-ethical people he’s borrowed so much “development”money from.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Redshift: Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.
Anne Laurie
@Omnes Omnibus:
Don’t let me stop you, certainly!
Wag
@Mnemosyne:
Now I can’t quite put my finger on it, but that would have been, somehow, different… I wish I could remember why.
Shalimar
@efgoldman: It’s going to include far more people than Watergate. It is becoming very clear that Russia was helping with dozens if not hundreds of individual Senate and House races. People in all of those campaigns were illegally accepting foreign aid too.
NickM
The only “personal privacy” excuse for not answering these questions is the 5th Amendment.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
Yarrow’s comment at 57 has also got me thinking about the effects on the global economy if the US political system imploded from this. So many corporations are headquarter and based here in the States that ant instability here could really fuck up the world as we know it
Yarrow
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Everyone in that administration should be lawyered up at this point. Haven’t heard anything about Priebus doing so. Doesn’t mean he hasn’t.
Anne Laurie
@Sloegin:
I’ve seen speculation that Session’s “personal life” involves a Strom Thurmond-style embarrassment — either a “colored” offspring, or a dalliance with a young man whose grandparents might’ve failed the brown paper bag test ifyouknowwhatImean. But I suspect it’s much more likely pure old-fashioned financial corruption, fueled by or in the service of his very public aversion to nigras ‘n hippies. Taking money from private prisons to legislate virtual slavery, for instance, or from pharmaceutical companies willing to support his stance against legalizing the Demon Weed. C.R.E.A.M.!
JWR
Good Lord, a’mighty! This administration… I simply have nothing left to say. Well, unless this big Medicare or whatever sort of medical fraud case that was just announced is somehow related to Sessions doing the old CYA routine. (Probably not, but who knows?)
Yarrow
@Anne Laurie: Rumor has it Melania and Donald had divorce papers signed and ready to go for after the election. And then he totally messed it all up by winning. You are right that she’s miserable and stays as far away from him as she can.
She does seem to adore Barron and I’d guess she’d do whatever it took to keep him safe. I think she’s smart enough to look at the three older kids and also what Marla did with Tiffany and figure out she needs to keep Barron as far as possible from Donald.
It wouldn’t surprise me if she was a Russian handler. It also wouldn’t surprise me if she had turned and was working with the FBI. Pretty much nothing would surprise me at this point.
randy khan
@NickM:
I don’t think the 5th Amendment works for a government form that you’ve already submitted.
Seth Owen
@Omnes Omnibus: I do not see how either privacy or official capacity has to do with answering the question on the security clearance forms. It’s any contacts. Period.
Villago Delenda Est
This asshole not only needs to be removed from office, at a MINIMUM he needs to go to prison. I would prefer that he be flayed alive.
efgoldman
@Anne Laurie:
Once the rocks and rotten logs start being turned over, who knows what slimy things crawl out from underneath.
Forgetting all the possible… umm… “peccadilloes”… the pure graft, grift, fraud and thievery will be mind boggling.
PatrickG
@TriassicSands: I’m sure others have weighed in by now, but this lurker paused everything to tell you that prison rape is a date best reserved for… No one. Ever.
Please consider that state sanctioned sexual violence might be bad.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@PatrickG: That was in real bad taste
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Omnes Omnibus: It wouldn’t since he himself have been sworn in as a US Attorney(I think), US Senator, and US Attorney General.
(Yes, I realize your question was rhetorical in nature.)
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
Good question. It of course will be a much shorter list.
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: I have always wondered about that – does it mean they CANNOT testify against a spouse or they can’t be made to testify against a spouse?
PatrickG
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: This is the kind of talk that could sink Baud’s chances.
(Also, the wish is just legitimately horrible. I can’t even try to snark without caveating.)
efgoldman
@Brachiator:
All those empty chairs. desks, offices and positions for which Donnie Dumpster never submitted appointments.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Any body interested in a discussion of reasonable term limits for national office?
This is why I think we should discuss them. People with a dramatic amount of power over our lives and they seem to be beholding only to a hostile foreign government or people that pay them. They affect the lives of 300+ million people and most of us never would vote for them because they don’t represent us. Or even the people that voted for them. They build up too much power and fuck us royally.
efgoldman
@Ruckus:
Unfortunately, can only be done by constitutional amendment (for federal elections).
Legislation was tried at the state level. SCOTUS said any state can limit its own state officers/elections in line with their own constitutions, but not federal elections (congress, senate, president/VP).
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus: Based on our experience here in CA, I think term limits make things worse. Anyway, there’s always term limits, either the voters or the pine box.
dww44
@Ruckus: I don’t think term limits would have saved us from this crew, given they’ve largely got no elected governing experience. What would have saved us was voters who understood whatTrump was. Or they understood, and still had to cast that vote for the candidate with the R after his name. It certainly had nothing to do with his morals, ethics, or truth telling abilities.
H.E.Wolf
@Villago Delenda Est:
“Flayed alive”? It’s true that urging violence is the shtick of various posters on this blog… but I can remember reading, with horror, about the “medical experiments” performed on concentration-camp inmates by Dr. Mengele and his ilk.
The one which still gives me nightmares was their practice of immersing the genitalia of men in boiling water, then in ice water, then back and forth again and again until the skin peeled off.
Emulating Nazi torturers is just… No. Full stop.
Villago Delenda Est
@H.E.Wolf: Yes, it’s over the top. WAY over the top.
But such arrogance (on the part of Sessions…”private matters” my ass….if you want a security clearance, get bent) demands a proportional response. Like being boiled in oil. Or staked out over a fire ant mound. Covered in honey.
PatrickG
@H.E.Wolf: if I stop lurking here, it will be because of the revenge porn. I get the impulse (oh, I do), but some commenters are a bit too, um, ardent for my taste.
I try to restrict myself to fantasies of penury and universal ridicule. As they say, mileages vary.
efgoldman
@Villago Delenda Est:
Maybe it’s because I’m a (literally) sick and tired old man, but I really don’t wish this violent bullshit on anybody.
I will be very satisfied turning on the teevee and seeing each of them in orange coveralls and shackles, being marched in and out of arraignment.
Then, convicted or not, being forced to spend all their money on legal defense, and losing whatever bar or other credentials they have.
That’s enough. Gettem the fuck our of office, gettem the fuck out of money, gettem the fuck out of power over anybody else.
Fuckem.
TriassicSands
@Yarrow:
The current SCOTUS majority is never going to invalidate a presidential election won by a Republican — even Trump.
Until they passed the 25th Amendment, we had no way to replace a vice president or have the VP take over for an incapacitated president. In this case, we have no constitutional means to invalidate an election, or more to the point, order a new one. Since presidential succession is all Republicans, I just don’t believe the SCOTUS will do anything to upset that.
One problem would be Gorsuch. If the presidential winner were ruled to be invalid, would all of his appointments be invalid? If so, then Gorsuch would be voting to remove himself from the bench. If he recused himself, then we’d probably have a 4-4 Court and that couldn’t decide anything. I’m afraid that hoping for Trump’s election to be ruled invalid and then, we hold another election, for which there is no constitutional provision, is beyond a stretch. In the event, someone proposed an amendment to fix that, it would have to be approved by 3/4 of the states (assuming it could get a 2/3 majority in the Congress). I don’t see that having any chance at all, since the state legislatures are dominated by Republicans.
Ruckus
@efgoldman:
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Didn’t say or think it will/would be easy. But if this crap we discuss daily blows up as big as I think is possible, it will change our country for ever. If we are going to change and hopefully grow up as a nation maybe we need to think of what got us here, what can we do to fix it so that this kind of crap is a lot harder to pull off, and what are the problems that, as Omnes stated, allow virtual political office for life. Personally I see positive effects for Reasonable term limits. A lot of governors are 2 term limited, such as CA and that is not my intent. However that said, having reasonable term limits may allow for a larger political class, and build up a larger pool of people who can run our government rather than line their own bank accounts. Yes it removes the good with the bad but not doing it allows the bad to be reelected and firm up political power far in excess of what it should be.
I also think that we should do away with the electoral college at the same time. It does do exactly as was intended by the people that gave it to us, favors property over population. It wasn’t good then, it’s far worse now.
JWR
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Yeah, pretty much. In fact, about the only thing I ever agreed with Ronald Reagan about was his issue with term limits. He said something like ‘we already have term limits. It’s called a ballot box.’
TriassicSands
@PatrickG:
You’re right. It was inappropriate and not something I would normally write. I won’t attempt to justify it.
Yarrow
@efgoldman: Watching them do a perp walk would be a joy to behold. Watching them sentenced for their crimes would be a day of great rejoicing.
@TriassicSands: We are in an unprecedented situation and as it goes forward many options may be discussed. I’d be all for invalidating Trump’s entire presidency. Let’s just start over. Gorsuch gets taken off the Court, we have a new election and the winner gets to appoint someone. I realize this sounds like crazy talk and maybe it is, but so was thinking this many members of our government were owned by the Russians. I see the complications and problems, but I think as it goes forward we might find ourselves discussing various options we never imagined even considering. Like I said, I have seen one such discussion already and how it might work. All hypothetical. Until it isn’t.
Ruckus
@efgoldman:
I think that most of us in reality want justice and reasonable payment for committing crimes. However there are those times when our better angels are taking a nap and the totality of what is happening to us by the people supposedly representing us, with their actions deadly to millions and some may see a perp walk and a club fed vacation might not be quite enough.
jl
@?BillinGlendaleCA: From my experience in CA, terms limits have been bad, And people should recall that the idea of term limits was pushed by a bunch of reactionary GOP thugs down in Southern California. I think their idea was to keep office holders off balance, and force them to become interested in getting on the corruption take from big donors and corporations as soon as they entered office. A new office holder knew that he would be looking for a new job after the next election. So politics is an endless money raising and ass kissing contest for the next big job move. I think their planned worked.
I also think term limits should be unconstitutional. I think Alex Hamilton agreed but will have to look it up.
I think Schwarzenegger had good intentions for his reforms. Think the independent redistricting commission worked well. Not sure about the jungle primary system. I think it so far has produced results to my liking in CA: a few races with a Democratic lock in the general, and none where the GOPer has a prayer to win statewide office, but that might have been the case anyway in CA. I have no clue if it is a good idea in other places.
efgoldman
@Ruckus:
The problem, of course, is it can only be changed by amending the constitution – a process that would require low-population states to voluntarily give up their own disproportionate power, regardless of what party controls each state house.
Is you can figure out a way to get them to do THAT, you’re the greatest political thinker that ever lived.
jl
@efgoldman: I’ll just note that there is a movement to effectively get rid of the electoral college by states passing laws to split their electoral college vote by popular vote or Congressional district. If I can remember the name of it, I’ll post a comment.
Edit: I think half a dozen states have passed it. The law will kick in for all those states that have passed it when a threshold is reached for electors who are bound by such state laws. California has passed it.
In the meantime efgoldman can put some grouchy counsels of despair on ever being able to do anytting about it.
Ruckus
@JWR:
Did you vote for Mitch McConnell? Or Ryan? Or Jeff Sessions? Or? Do they keep getting elected?
These people are fucking up your life and you didn’t vote for them. Of course RR didn’t like term limits. The people who build that much power never like to not be able to continue.
Fuckem
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus: The problem is, as we’ve seen in the CA Legislature, that the lobbyists have more power in the system with term limits. Legislators don’t have time to really learn the job before they’re off to run for another.
jl
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
” The problem is, as we’ve seen in the CA Legislature, that the lobbyists have more power in the system with term limits. ”
I agree.
” Legislators don’t have time to really learn the job before they’re off to run for another. ”
Thanks. That is another problem with it.
I think it was an intentional plot by CA GOP to mess up the state government. It worked for a while but the CA GOP became so toxic and thuggish they lost power anyway, and most everyone here hates them now.
Mike G
Sessions not disclosing contacts w/Russians because it would invade his “personal privacy”
Potential treason should be overlooked because of Klanmaster Sessions’ delicate fee-fees, but the whole world had to hear every detail about Bill Clinton’s wiener because he had a girlfriend in the White House. Republican Calvinball.
jl
As for Sessions, kind of shocking on general principles. But am I really surprised? Did I ever think he had any principles, general or otherwise?
No, I didn’t. But the specific outrage that occurs is always a surprise, and a little shocking to see one’s very low expectations realized in the event, even if something like that was expected.
Gosh, another reason to contact DiFi and now, Harris. Tell them DOJ don’t get to do squat until this little problem of a crook running it is resolved.
Edit: Note to self: remember to tell DiFi and Harris this is a good reason to shut down Session’s part of the Trump voter suppression scheme. And that merits shutting down Senate if necessary, and they need to be very serious and relentless in resolving the Sessions unpleasantness.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: I tend to mostly agree, I’m a bit less ambivalent about the jungle primary, I hate it with the passion of a thousand suns. It can lead to really perverse results, in one case I think because so many Dems were running in a Dem district there ended up with two Reps on the general ballot.
scav
Well, lawzey me, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions personal privacy is just so precious and, I mean, that little old trial would just interfere with his personal vacation time, otherwise he’d just be so charmed to oblige.
Ruckus
@efgoldman:
Well, that I ain’t.
But really everyone I hear knocking term limits has seen them done wrong, making them way too limiting. I agree that isn’t necessary or good. It’s the sinecure for life concept that needs to change. Come up with a better way. We do have term limits for the presidency and even after the last president, (I think one of the all time top 5 at the very least. And I didn’t agree with everything he did. But he wasn’t in there to only benefit himself, he did some very good things, and is a very good man.) I think it was a good idea, over all.
jl
@Ruckus: I’d just take the complement and thank efg.
I know I will when my turn comes!
Jerzy Russian
@Ruckus: Either do away with the Electoral College, or redo Congress so that the number of electoral votes each state gets is proportional to the population. If the least populous state gets one member of Congress, then California should get about 80 or 90 Congress members.
Term limits would be less of an issue if the congressional districts were not so gerrymandered. However, given the gerrymandering, I am beginning to come around to the idea of term limits.
Also, I have always wondered if there is a way for all of the voters to decide who the Speaker of the House is or who the Senate Majority Leader is. What Bitch McConnell is doing is affecting us all, not just the good people of Kentucky.
TriassicSands
@Yarrow:
I’m afraid that in order for that to happen — across the political spectrum, which is what would be necessary — we’d have to see a radical change in Republicans and I really can’t see that happening. It’s possible that the difference in our viewpoints is that I don’t expect the kind of evidence to surface that we all want to see and that would cause Republicans to rethink virtually everything they currently believe. The problem is that what they currently believe is nonsense and not the product of intelligent, rational thought. I don’t see them changing the way they think — stupid people can’t will themselves to be smart. The question of what is stupid is not a simple one. I’m a firm believer in the existence stupid, intelligent people and I think those Republicans who can qualify as intelligent also qualify as stupid, intelligent people. Louis Gomert doesn’t enter the picture here — he’s a stupid, stupid person. Ben Carson is definitely a stupid — massively so — intelligent person. His brand of religion may be one of his debilitating influences.
The essence of the modern Republican is denial of reality, wishful thinking, and inability to change in the face of inconvenient facts. (Oh, and they tend to be really nasty people.)
JWR
@Ruckus:
Being in and from CA, of course I didn’t. But the voters of their respective states did, and hopefully, when those same voters begin to feel the wrath of their politicians policies, they’ll, (begin to, hopefully?), lose their tribal identity and change their tune.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus: St. Ronnie didn’t run for a 3rd term as CA Governor, he was not bound by term limits. Term limits are a really bad idea.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus: Term limits at the Presidential level was rat fucking by Republicans after FDR.
Ruckus
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Once again I’m saying that any term limits have to be reasonable. You are correct about CA’s limits. But saying that the lobbyists have too much power because of term limits, we have no term limits in congress and are there lobbyists who exert too much power? Lobbyists exert power over people who want the job, not to govern but for power. They don’t have to work and they get to build power and money by just following the lobbyists. They are intertwined issues but the people being elected are the bigger problem. One doesn’t have to listen to lobbyists, they are not all, or maybe even any of your constituents.
Prop 13 was a lobbyists dream and that was before term limits and even term limits would not have changed that.
No Drought No More
Now we can all look forward to watching Sessions do his best Foghorn Leghorn impersonation in response to “the scurrilous, I say scurrilous, sir” accusations of criminal impropriety that will soon soon be hurled at his racist southern ass by yankee scallawags, I say scallawags, sir..
Still, Sessions will be hard pressed to surpass the mock outrage of Lynne Cheney during the campaign of 2004. Remember? John Edwards had casually mentioned during the VP debate that one of Cheney’s daughters- currently employed by Coors beer as that company’s top liaison to beer swilling gay Americans- was herself as gay as a goose (Edwards might have added she also earned a six figure salary as Coors gay outreach generalissimo). To hear Mama Cheney proceed to vent her groundless and inexplicable outrage, however, and you might have thought Edwards had mistakenly referred to her daughter that night as a convicted child molester, practicing necrophiliac, and 9/11 conspirator. It was an absolutely surreal political performance by a 24 karat, bona fide, American fascist loon AND old hag, and yet even so, the pathetic Kerry-Edwards campaign let it slide, and never defended themselves- much less their party- by denouncing her in no uncertain terms for spewing such unadulterated bullshit.
TriassicSands
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
It’s easier to dislike them when we like the president.
Reagan’s dementia would have ended his political career, but he might well have won a third term — and then, Nancy and the astrologers would have been running things.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus: The problem is with term limit is that the lobbyists become the experts that the new legislators end up relying on.
Prop 13 was a voter initiative(it was on the first ballot I could vote on, I voted NO), so it had nothing to do with the Legislature(term limits or not).
Ruckus
@JWR:
Yeah, I see that happening real soon now. In fact I’m holding my breath. What a beautiful shade of blu…….
John Elias
@TriassicSands:
That’s a problem with Democracy, not term limits. We’d be better off with the astrologers right now.
different-church-lady
Mark Slackmeyer? Paging Mark Slackmeyer…
Ruckus
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Yes it was.
However I’d bet that if you were to ask President Obama if he’d like to be president for life he’d decline. It’s a tough gig, just look at any of the people who’ve done the job in the last 60 yrs, before and after and tell me it’s wise to even give someone the chance. Also remember that FDR was the only person to have more than 2 terms.
Remember too another great man said this is supposed to be a government of the people, by the people, for the people. It isn’t that if there isn’t a change, a handing over of the job of governing. We are supposed to elect people to govern us, not whatever it is that is happening now. It sure ain’t governing.
joel hanes
@TriassicSands:
Even from you, prison rape jokes never considered funny.
TriassicSands
@JWR:
I don’t want to pile on, but the failure of disappointed voters to change their alignments is one of the great failings of the two party system.
If something happened in CA to make it impossible for you to support Boxer or Harris for re-election, would you vote for a Republican instead. I wouldn’t. I couldn’t. It’s the same on both sides of the spectrum — the difference might be that on the left voters would be more likely to opt out entirely, whereas on the right they keep plugging away with the same people who screw them year after year — because a Democrat is not an option.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus:
Yes, and Ms. Obama would proceed to kill me.
Ruckus
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Didn’t say it had anything to do with the legislature, said it was a lobbyists dream.
Bill I think you will find that I actually agree with you quite a bit. Term limits as written in CA are bad. That’s not necessarily the fault of term limits, but shitty writing. I have always maintained that for term limits to work properly they have to be reasonable. What we have in CA isn’t reasonable. People do have to be able to have a career in politics if that is what they want. A career, not a lifetime sinecure. They are supposed to be there to serve us, not the inverse.
Ruckus
@Jerzy Russian:
A convert?
Damn, I am good.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TriassicSands: Unfortunately, Boxer retired, but we still have DiFi.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus: I oppose the concept of term limits. If you want to get rid of a officehoder, just get someone to oppose them and win the election.
Aleta
Here’s to all the guys who refuse to live in the same world as TrumpPruittPenceSessions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bVMW2XVNI
What a man, what a man, what a man
What a mighty good man
Say it again now
Let me put it on your mind
Let me put it on your mind
He thrills me, kills me
He’s a lovin’ kind
piratedan
the problem isn’t with term limits in and of itself, its with lobbyists access to the legislators. That’s where the restriction needs to be. Not saying that business interests or professional associations shouldn’t have a voice but many times, its the only other entity in the room when the laws get drafted and the language gets crafted.
Villago Delenda Est
@Yarrow: There’s just no process for doing any of this. Due to the ex-post-facto clause in the Constitution, we can’t just nullify this instance. An amendment is needed to address this situation, which is unprecedented…and only for future illegitimate Presidents. Gorsuch of course has no honor, so he won’t step down voluntarily. Nor does any other Rethuglican.
TriassicSands
@joel hanes:
See comment 106.
TriassicSands
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I just used Boxer as an example rather than DiFi, since DiFi might be someone some lefties would have a harder time supporting. She was also kind of on my mind because I heard a long interview with her the other day. I was sorry it was she who retired and not Feinstein. That said, Feinstein is better than any Republican and there is no Republican I can currently imagine voting for.
Steeplejack
@Redshift:
Supposedly it was Sean Spicer, who was sent home early along with Priebus, who ardently wanted to meet the Pope.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@TriassicSands:
Wrong. If Gorsuch recused himself, we’d have an 8-0 Court rather than 9-0. There is nothing whatsoever in the Constitution about redoing an election, and you wouldn’t get a single justice to say that it has a basis in law.
sukabi
@Redshift: no, that was Sean Spicer that was cut out of meeting the Pope.
TriassicSands
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym:
Two words: activist judges
(or justices, if you prefer).
Ironically, if you go back to Marbury v. Madison, there was nothing in the Constitution that said that the SCOTUS was the final arbiter of what is and isn’t constitutional. That was something the Court made up for itself. While not as extreme, they were in that general area with Bush v. Gore — they made up the law on the pretext that we faced a constitutional crisis and then had the chutzpah to say their decision wasn’t to be used as a precedent.
I agree that if the Court were made up of 9 (or 8) people of integrity who had no political agenda your outcome would be guaranteed. As things stand, you might be right, but I would bet a penny I couldn’t afford to lose that you are.
Note: Marbury was a good decision that was necessary, at least in the absence of a constitutional amendment to fix the oversight. The framers had overlooked a few things when they wrote the Constitution. Bush v. Gore was not.
TriassicSands
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym:
If I didn’t make it clear, I’m not saying the Court would rule to overturn an election or call a new one. I have already pointed out that there is no constitutional mechanism to do that. But I don’t have any confidence in the integrity of the five conservative members of the Court. If Trump gets another opening, the Court will move further to the right and it seems likely that the new justice will be cut from the same cloth as Gorsuch and Alito — agenda driven with a heavy reliance on religion.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TriassicSands: I think this often lost in discussions about the Court, the number of justices are a matter of statute not the Constitution. A Democratic administration and Congress could change that number. I’m a traditionalist, but after what Yertle the Turtle pulled last year with the vacancy, fuck traditionalism.
JWR
@TriassicSands: Not to worry. I don’t feel piled upon. And @Ruckus: Sorry, but given current circumstances, I have to agree with @BillinGlendaleCA. As things now stand, at least until the 2020 Census, I tend to disagree that term limits are the answer.
(Also, BillinGlendaleCA, my first voting opportunity was also against Proposition 13!)
TriassicSands
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
That didn’t go well for FDR, but I agree that it is almost impossible to deal fairly with someone like McConnell. Yes, the Democrats play games and mess with the rules to their advantage, but as an opinion piece by Mann and Orstein in the 2012 Washington Post so correctly pointed out — “Let’s Just Say It: The Republicans Are the Problem.” They argue, again correctly, that the Democrats have continued to play the game within the longstanding and generally agreed upon “rules.” The Republicans have not. They’ve jettisoned the rules and any sense of fair play in one raw power play after another.
Wingers, defending McConnell getting rid of the filibuster for SCOTUS nominees, point to Reid doing it for lower court judges. But if they were fair-minded and looked at the context, they would see that McConnell was obstructing appointments in an unheard of way. So, to allow at least some judges to get through Reid acted. McConnell junked the filibuster for SCOTUS nominees so he could put an illegitimate justice on the Court whose nomination had been made possible by the outrageous obstruction of McConnell. There seems to be a pattern.
As long as someone like McConnell is Majority Leader of the Senate, every move the Dems make to try to fix a broken or abused system will be countered by more abuse. The Dems increase the number of justices to 11 and the next time the Republicans get control it goes up to 13 or 15 or 49, whatever works for them.
What we need is to have the GOP reduced to permanent significant minority status. And there doesn’t seem to be any way to make that happen since it depends on the American electorate, which I don’t see improving, perhaps ever. (Where “ever” is the rest of my life, which won’t be all that long.)
Sab
@JWR: I live in Ohio, and term limits have destroyed our state government. The lobbyists run the place.
We used to have lontime serving experienced people who worked across the isle. Now we have short term idiots.
Only Republicans want to run for office. They want to get on to the Kochs funded gravy train. If they take an unpopular position and don’t get re-elected then they get a cushy job at sone right wing think tank.
Democrats don’t have that luxury. If they lose they have to go out in the real world and make a living.
Ruckus
@JWR:
Not saying they are the answer. But we have rarely if ever actually had a government made up of people who are not very long term political operatives. They have too much power. How else do you limit that?
We also need better operational rules in congress.
We also need more people to be involved in local politics.
We also need a lot of other things that I’m too tired to try to write down now. We’ve arrived at a point where half our country is pissed that life hasn’t treated them as good as the politicians who are screwing them. They can’t see/conceive of a way or a possibility of fixing that, their next best thing is to get their bigotry on and stop any progress so that at least they are even. We have politicians who are only in this for the money and it isn’t the money we pay them, it’s the money that they can make on the side and after a short stint in giving away the store. We have a political party called conservative which is a fucking joke. If they were conservative they would want to save at least the basics but all they want is to steal anything not bolted down and most of what isn’t. I think we are at a turning point in this experiment. We can either adjust that which isn’t working or we can watch it all fall apart. I’m offering some possible solutions, all I hear is no. Anyone got any other ideas, because this clearly isn’t working as any of us need it to. The status quo sucks donkey balls. What else you got?
TriassicSands
@Ruckus:
What we need most is a better electorate. And that isn’t in the cards, I’m afraid.
JWR
@TriassicSands:
This goes straight to my incessant argument that what this country really needs is some new variation of the Fairness Doctrine. I know I know. All we’d get is the watered down version we had in the 1980’s, with a bunch of lily-livered “Liberals” arguing from a defensive POV, but it might be a start. In other words, it just might be a way to begin to win over Hearts and Minds.
TriassicSands
@JWR:
I think a new Fairness Doctrine would be great.
Unfortunately, the Republicans don’t believe in fairness. And if a new Fairness Doctrine really was a way to “win over Hearts and Minds,” then Republicans would never go for it for obvious reasons.
A well-informed, rational electorate is not in the interests of anyone selling snake oil. That would be the GOP.
Aimai
@TriassicSands: ban worthy.
TriassicSands
@Aimai:
Please see comment 106.
I have to go to bed now – it’s 3:25 here.
JWR
@TriassicSands: All very true, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. (~sigh~ If only I were young and fit of body again…)
satby
@JWR: maybe an “accuracy doctrine”. A media source would need to fact check statements in real time or refuse to allow deliberate mistruths to be broadcast. Such as “there is no scientific controversy, global climate change is real” or some after a climate denier spiels bullshit.
Edited to add: or better, never give them a platform since they will say “inaccurate” things.
TriassicSands
@JWR:
One last comment in two parts:
1) I never believe in giving up.
2) Earlier tonight I wrote a comment I shouldn’t have. It was not characteristic of my comments here (or anywhere) and I’m sorry I wrote it. As I said earlier, I won’t attempt to justify it. The comment was offensive and I apologize for that. There is no “I’m sorry if I offended someone…” in this. The inappropriateness of the comment speaks for itself.
Now, I really do have to go to sleep.
Manyakitty
@Anne Laurie: My question is who will take care of Ivanka’s kids when their parents and entire family are in prison?
JWR
@satby:
Nope. Nothing short of a government mandated commission on media accuracy, (woo boy! I can just imagine how that’ll play out!), will satisfy me!
@TriassicSands:
That’s the ticket! And now I, too, must bid y’all adieu.
Neldob
No ones going to prison. Christy’s creep didn’t go to prison, only his minions did. Maybe they’ll get community service hours.
AnonPhenom
The conspirators should have told Prevezon’s lawyer to play it cool …
…whata’ bunch of amateurs
J R in WV
@Yarrow:
I can see why answering questions from a prosecutor would make a felon / traitor nervous, certainly. He should get used to it, perhaps.
YellowDog
@Wag: It may be just Tiffany. This whole thing is like Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. Bannon’s Bretibart operation was funded by the Mercer family, which funds Cambridge Analytica, which worked with the Trump campaign, whose data work was coordinated by Kushner, who was in the meeting with Junior.
It all stinks of Kompromat.