Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Giving in to doom is how we fail to fight for ourselves & one another.

Everybody saw this coming.

The only way through is to slog through the muck one step at at time.

Let me file that under fuck it.

Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

We still have time to mess this up!

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

How any woman could possibly vote for this smug smarmy piece of misogynistic crap is beyond understanding.

Fundamental belief of white supremacy: white people are presumed innocent, minorities are presumed guilty.

This country desperately needs a functioning fourth estate.

If you voted for Trump, you don’t get to speak about ethics, morals, or rule of law.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

If you cannot answer whether trump lost the 2020 election, you are unfit for office.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

There are no moderate republicans – only extremists and cowards.

“In this country American means white. everybody else has to hyphenate.”

Every one of the “Roberts Six” lied to get on the court.

Never give a known liar the benefit of the doubt.

He wakes up lying, and he lies all day.

Republicans: “Abortion is murder but you can take a bus to get one.” Easy peasy.

Republican also-rans: four mules fighting over a turnip.

Beware of advice from anyone for whom Democrats are “they” and not “we.”

You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Thursday Evening Open Thread: The Gang That Couldn’t Grift Straight

Thursday Evening Open Thread: The Gang That Couldn’t Grift Straight

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Forty-odd years of being carefully nursed by right-wing billionairs has really ruined the GOP grifters’ criminal stamina. Sure, Tricky Dick’s CREEPsters and St. Ronnie’s Iran-contra thugs were dumb and impulsive, but they didn’t break down like wet toilet paper at the first sign of exposure!

Apart from always wearing rubber gloves while dealing with Repubs, what’s on the agenda for the evening?
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Reader Interactions

260Comments

  2. 2.

    West of the Cascades

    What sort of a world are we living in where “President Hatch” actually sounds good, compared to the other three alternatives? Of course, circa July 2019, “President Pelosi” sounds even better …

  5. 5.

    Jeffro

    People don’t forget – there is likely to be some lag time and so if Trump goes and pence is sworn in he will have a little bit of time to name his own VP.

    THAT person is much more likely to be president a year from now than Paul Ryan.

    Regardless of how it plays out, each and everyone of these folks who are guilty need to be indicted, tried, and convicted. No need to game it out too far – just push for absolutely complete investigations into every aspect of this mess.

    And no more “looking forward not back”, either

  7. 7.

    Roger Moore

    @Jeffro:

    People don’t forget – there is likely to be some lag time and so if Trump goes and pence is sworn in he will have a little bit of time to name his own VP.

    THAT person is much more likely to be president a year from now than Paul Ryan.

    You sure about that? Remember, the replacement VP has to be confirmed by both Houses of Congress. If it looks as if Pence is in trouble, do you think Ryan is going to schedule a confirmation vote?

  9. 9.

    Uncle Omar

    You know, I believe that I would come out of retirement for the opportunity to cross-examine any of these dopes under oath in front of a jury.

  10. 10.

    MisterForkbeard

    @debbie: Superdelegates are such a crock. Absent evidence like this coming out during the primary, they would never reverse the public decision. And even then it’d be a tough lift.

    We kept saying as much to the Bernie supporters in 2016 after Bernie was mostly eliminated, and it was right then. It’s right now.

  11. 11.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    One thing’s for sure: the next few years are going to be turbulent and I can’t see Trump making it to 2020, in any capacity.

  13. 13.

    rikyrah

    We were talking about this at work. I brought up Pence.

    You all do realize that all these ‘leaks’ to the press is information that The Spooks have had.

    No wonder they went crazy after the election. They had given this info to the FBI- who didn’t do their phucking job.

  14. 14.

    Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA

    On the agenda for tonight is more Broadway: 1984. Two blocks from the hotel, and it looks like it might be something I’ll love, so why not.

    Yeah, I’m purposely paying money on my vacation to be left freaked out and depressed.

  17. 17.

    Brachiator

    In related news concerning the GOP v America, the Republican Congress declines to take away Kushner’s security clearance. Again, the Republicans are going all the way to back Trump. He probably has assured the leadership that there is nothing behind all this, and the Republicans are stupid enough to believe him.

    Collateral damage so far? The “liberal fake news media,” of course, and the intelligence agencies, which in nutjob land need to be purged of all the “deep state” traitors.

    This crap is unbelievable. Just unbelievable. Trump is not only a traitor, but he is pulling the entire country into his bizarro conspiracy world.

  18. 18.

    StringOnAStick

    @rikyrah: I can imagine how some IC people are at the Hair on Fire stage and have been for months now. I know these are puzzle masters, but I suspect they are working fast to figure out the connections and what they can safely leak, and that’s from people who are predisposed to not wanting to be in the spot light for any reason. At this point I figure it is a race between the anti-Russia IC and the pro-Russian, pro-tRump (the NYC office that Guilianni colluded with). There isn’t much we can do except keep holding the elected R’s feet to the fire and make them as nervous as possible, then tie them to tRump with unbreakable rope once that lying bastard is revealed to the the Russian stooge we all know he is.

  19. 19.

    bemused

    Busy so only hearing bits from msnbc in background but man, I hope there is confirmed evidence Trump was fully informed on Jr’s meeting. Better yet would be that Trump made an appearance too. A girl can dream…

  20. 20.

    TaMara (HFG)

    @Tom Levenson: I have been saying this for months now. Just paralyze the current crew with investigations and subpoenas, then it’s up to us to vote these traitors out of office…THEN impeach, with alacrity.

  22. 22.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Brachiator:

    Again, the Republicans are going all the way to back Trump. He probably has assured the leadership that there is nothing behind all this, and the Republicans are stupid enough to believe him.

    Or the leadership is involved somehow

    Collateral damage so far? The “liberal fake news media,” of course, and the intelligence agencies, which in nutjob land need to be purged of all the “deep state” traitors.

    I think the country needs to be purged of RWNJs

  24. 24.

    MisterForkbeard

    @rikyrah: According to CNN, Mueller’s team was not aware of the meeting with Veselnitskaya, but they’re looking into it now. It looks like the whole thing might have been sparked by the SF86 refiling, in which Kushner had to amend his filing to include all the Russian contacts he conveniently “forgot” about.

  25. 25.

    Mike in DC

    1. Wait until 2019. Dems take House.
    2. Impeach both Trump and Pence simultaneously.
    3. Immediately after removal, Pelosi steps down. House Dems elect Hillary Clinton as Speaker (you dont have to be a member of the Congress to be speaker. )
    4. Clinton gives her inaugural address, later referred to as the “suck it, wingnuts” speech.

  26. 26.

    Brachiator

    Apart from trying to avoid getting sucked into the morass of Trump stupidity, I am counting down the days until the premiere of this season of Game of Thrones.

    Torture porn, gratuitous sex and violence? Bring it on.

    And this weekend, the charming comedy film, “The Big Sick” opens in wide release, and I plan to see it again. Avoid spoilers, go see it. Very heart warming.

  27. 27.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Brachiator: This shouldn’t even be a call by Congress. The Admin/IC people in charge of clearance are supposed to revoke it in cases like this. Adam’s detailed this in the past.

    Realistically speaking, at that point Trump would overrule the revocation, and then you’d be in a world of shit. Because it’d be really obvious to basically everyone but Trump loyalists what was going on, but “Trump Loyalists” includes most of the GOP. So you’d have an obvious major issue and no way to resolve it.

    But then, “Obvious major problem and no way to resolve it” has basically been the MO of the entire Trump Administration.

  29. 29.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Jeffro:

    People don’t forget – there is likely to be some lag time and so if Trump goes and pence is sworn in he will have a little bit of time to name his own VP.

    That’s why it’s so crucial for Bobby Three-Sticks to nail Mikey Dense to the Treason Wall first. (I would not be surprised if that’s why he’s moving deliberately – you don’t want to shitcan a traitor only to hand the job over to another traitor.)

    Unfortunately whatever supreme Being there might be can’t possibly love us enough for there to be more mundane indictable offenses enough in Dense’s closet to compel his resignation a la Agnew.

  31. 31.

    stinger

    @Tom Levenson: That would get my vote. Or, the Dems gain the majority, they select Hillary as their ML, she becomes President, and Nancy becomes ML. THAT would be thoroughly satisfying.

    I may have read it somewhere in BJ comments once.

    ETA: Might have been Mike in DC!

  33. 33.

    West of the Rockies (been a while)

    How has 36 year old Kushner outfoxed everybody so far? He’s NOT that bright. And why isn’t Ivanka mentioned as colluding? She has a position there, she’s in on this shit and is bedding (gross) Kushner. She’s dirty, too.

  35. 35.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Maybe. He’s not a healthy man. If he watches a lot of TV, I can easily see him having a blood clot or an aneurysm. Unfortunately he has access to the best medical care in the world as president.

  36. 36.

    efgoldman

    @Jeffro:

    he will have a little bit of time to name his own VP.
    THAT person is much more likely to be president a year from now than Paul Ryan.

    True, but that person also needs to be confirmed by both houses. If it comes to that, I can see the RWNJs being all fractious.
    Ford was a known quantity, not a nutcase, and everyone’s favorite second banana.

  38. 38.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    Possibly the finest projection by a spokesman on a lawyer headed for a major career crash, ever.

    Kasowitz gets whiskey bent and hellbound, because that’s the only excuse for this…

    Since the story was published, his spokesman issued a statement disputing several parts of the story: “Marc Kasowitz has not struggled with alcoholism,” Sitrick wrote. “He has not come into the office intoxicated, attorneys have not had to go across the street to the restaurant during the workday to consult Kasowitz on work matters.”

    The spokesman clearly has experience with old time drunk lawyers that embrace their alcoholism and make it work for them. Kasowitz clearly doesn’t struggle with it – he goes with it. And no, they don’t have to drag him out of the bar to get work done – he’s desk drinking…

  40. 40.

    jl

    I guess since total incompetent fools is the topic of the post, this isn’t off topic. I can’t help reposting it until FPer highlights it.

    The funding for the Cruz improved Senate tax cut pretending to be a health care bill is a total fraud. Cruz amendment uses the same pot of money over and over again to pay for the various supposed and purported improvements and sops to the moderate GOPer Senators.

    Good excuse to contact Senators again, with aghast and concerned questions about what the hell is going on up there.

    Uh Oh: O’Care Repeal Bill Counts The Same Pot Of Money Multiple Times
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/senate-republicans-double-dip-obamacare-repeal

    Edit: Might want to comment that if YOU couldn’t do addition, you’d probably lose your job.

  41. 41.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @MisterForkbeard:

    This shouldn’t even be a call by Congress.

    True, it shouldn’t.

    The Admin/IC people in charge of clearance are supposed to revoke it in cases like this. Adam’s detailed this in the past.

    But Adam has also pointed out that the President* can grant a clearance over their objections.

  42. 42.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Major Major Major Major: I always feel petty at moments like that, until I remember that I won’t have to deal with said person again.

    When our company was acquired last year, it was generally a letdown but I was positively ecstatic that they removed my own personal nemesis and reassigned him to some shithole somewhere. Considering that I’d came this close to trying get him fired a few months earlier (at some risk to my own career) it was a very welcome development.

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Yep, pointed out that Trump can overrule the revocation in my 2nd paragraph. It’d be a huge problem for most presidents, but the Republicans have already demonstrated that they just don’t give a shit.

  43. 43.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    Apart from always wearing rubber gloves while dealing with Repubs, what’s on the agenda for the evening?

    Trying to keep my blood pressure down. I survived my third sleep study in six weeks last night, and I’m having a lot of trouble convincing myself that there’s not a grift involved somewhere.

    This should have been a straightforward prescription renewal.

  44. 44.

    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap

    Jr. admitted to being a traitor. He is still free and not under arrest. Kushner has now modified is SF-86 multiple times, which would land any one of us in court. They are getting away with this everyday. Trump will still be POTUS 4 years from now. There are no magic fixes to this, only the ballot box.

  52. 52.

    Shalimar

    @Jeffro: Per 25th Amendment, a new VP has to be approved by both the House and Senate. Ryan isn’t going to let that happen if it is obvious Pence is going down too.

  54. 54.

    NotMax

    @Mike in DC

    Fantasy is nice, in its way. But fantasy nonetheless.

    #2 (simultaneity) is a non-starter
    #3 requires trial and conviction in the Senate
    In the case of #4 (as proposed), the president pro tem of the Senate immediately becomes President if the Speaker position is vacant during succession.

  55. 55.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @jl:

    The funding for the Cruz improved Senate tax cut pretending to be a health care bill is a total fraud. Crus amendment uses the same pot of money over and over again to pay for the supposed and purported improvements and sops to the moderate GOPer Senators.

    They always say Cruz is a good debater and lawyer, they never said he was good at math.

  56. 56.

    jl

    And forgot that rikyrah highlighted a piece that said McConnell is trying to order his troops to knowingly vote for a dishonest bill. He’s promising the ‘moderates’ that the GOP really don’t mean the slashes in Medicaid, they will be changed later so it’s all good.

    That deserves another call to GOP Seantors to tell them you don’t pay their salaries to be McConnell’s crummy little lying punks.
    https://balloon-juice.com/2017/07/13/nos-are-piling-up/#comment-6465860

    Edit: need to keep calling. This dopes are on the ropes. Keep them off balance, and scare the political hell out of the ‘moderates’ (politely). Do it for the fun of it.

  61. 61.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Baud: One of the first statements my roommate of 3 years in college made as a freshman made was that he never had to take math again*, he’s a lawyer now.

    *I believe he made that statement when he saw my oversized Calculus textbook.

  62. 62.

    Keith P.

    I’ve been wondering something – do Trump staffers not realize how much leverage they have over Trump (quitting would lead to a bad news cycle…multiple resigns would be another “Worst Week Ever”) or are they just that loyal to the cause that they let the boss get crazier and crazier. All this talk over “Why does X or Yvanka not talk to Trump to make him stop?” should be replaced with “Why does X not just tell Sr. that if he doesn’t cut they shit, they’re outta here?”

  65. 65.

    NotMax

    @Yarrow

    Should it ever come to that (extremely, extremely unlikely) a damn sight better than President Tillerson, the next in line.

  66. 66.

    jl

    @Baud: Dammit Baud, when I think you could be the one running this shit show, I just weep for what could have been.
    ‘We still have time to mess this up’.
    You coulda been a contender….

    It would be so much more fun creating this mess with cheery care free beer bashes and lotto for all in the WH instead of anger, subversion and liars with bad attitude.

  67. 67.

    Yarrow

    @NotMax: It is indeed. If the rest of them go down, Tillerson will go down too. He’s in tight with the Russians.

  68. 68.

    Jeffro

    @Roger Moore:

    You sure about that? Remember, the replacement VP has to be confirmed by both Houses of Congress. If it looks as if Pence is in trouble, do you think Ryan is going to schedule a confirmation vote?

    Um, I think the second part of my comment was, ‘no point in trying to game this out’. =)

  72. 72.

    TenguPhule

    @Baud:

    I should have partnered with a foreign adversary.

    Baud/Canada: Because we already blame him for everything!

  78. 78.

    Roger Moore

    @Brachiator:

    He probably has assured the leadership that there is nothing behind all this, and the Republicans are stupid enough to believe him.

    He has probably assured the leadership that they’re all in this together and he’ll take them down with him if he falls.

  79. 79.

    WaterGirl

    @Percysowner: Wow, if he admitted to that, I think there’s a really good chance that it will be proven that he was actually at the meeting. Apparently he was in Trump Tower that day.

  81. 81.

    TenguPhule

    @Yarrow: Hatch is involved too. He’s already dismissed the Trump Jr email as “Kids will be kids.”

    He’s filthy with Russian blood money somewhere.

  82. 82.

    Laura

    Going out tonight to see Earth Wind and Fire and Nile Rogers and Chic! Le Freak!
    Because when Nile Rogers comes to your town, you’d be foolish to not see Nile Rogers!

  83. 83.

    Jeffro

    @Shalimar: Pence won’t be out before the 2018 elections, but Trumpov might just be. The pressure on Ryan to not risk President Pelosi in 2019 or 2020 would be immense. And there’s always Koch money to help soften the “coulda, woulda” for Paulie Blue Eyes.

  86. 86.

    TenguPhule

    @Brachiator:

    This crap is unbelievable. Just unbelievable. Trump is not only a traitor, but he is pulling the entire country into his bizarro conspiracy world.

    You know we’re in trouble when I’m the one starting to sound sane and reasonable.

  87. 87.

    jl

    @Baud: Practice in the mirror for the debates:
    “My name is Baud, James Baud, of His Majesty’s Secret Service, of Monaco. I can promise this country baccarat in every den and hot babes in every bedroom.”
    After Trump, you’ll be able to say anything.

  89. 89.

    Brachiator

    @Roger Moore:

    He has probably assured the leadership that they’re all in this together and he’ll take them down with him if he falls

    I think the vile GOP leadership would drop Trump like a cold turd and walk away without a year if it serves their purposes.

  91. 91.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    Kasowitz sure sounds like a piece of work. I was reading earlier today about some spittle-flecked, vulgar, threatening emails he sent to someone last night. Apparently he “apologized” today for his intemperate tone, but, you know, he’d had a long day.

    ETA, if I had clicked on your link before writing my comment, I wouldn’t have written it. Or would have written something different. I assumed, wrongly, that it was to a different article published before the email threats.

  95. 95.

    TenguPhule

    @Brachiator:

    I think the vile GOP leadership would drop Trump like a cold turd and walk away without a year if it serves their purposes.

    Its far too late for that.

    Between what they’ve already signed off on and the Russians holding whatever the hell it is they stole from the RNC servers, the GOP is wedded to Trump to the bitter end. They literally have no other chance for survival.

  98. 98.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @TenguPhule: I’d give a left nut just to see Trump and his kids (adults) being hunted by the Predator. Trump would die first because I can’t see him running

  100. 100.

    TenguPhule

    @jl:

    Cruz amendment uses the same pot of money over and over again to pay for the various supposed and purported improvements and sops to the moderate GOPer Senators.

    Not a surprise. They did it in the House Bill too.

  101. 101.

    jl

    @Baud: Go for it. You will be running again in the post Trump era. Go for broke. Every man a king. Pussy Galore can be your veep. And Dr. Goldfinger your Secretary of Treasury. The country will throw itself at your feet.

  104. 104.

    bupalos

    @Percysowner: SETTLE for Pelosi? Sorry, at the risk of inciting the WILMER/HITLERY wars, Pelosi is just objectively at least 2x the progressive that Ms. Clinton ever wanted to be. And still not progressive enough. But seriously, would folks here really prefer Hillary to Pelosi?

  106. 106.

    Baud

    @bupalos:

    But seriously, would folks here really prefer Hillary to Pelosi?

    Pelosi is more progressive, but Hillary is more presidential across all the areas a president needs to deal with. So in this fantasy, I would choose Hillary.

  109. 109.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @bupalos: I’d prefer her to either Trump or Wilmer. Wilmer I’d definitely take over Trump, but he’s too much of a flake for me

  111. 111.

    Mnemosyne

    @bupalos:

    Hillary would know how to calm all of our international allies down after all of the damage Trump has done. So, yeah, I prefer Hillary’s ability to fix the shit that Trump has broken over something abstract like “who’s more progressive?”

  113. 113.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @jl:

    It would be so much more fun creating this mess with cheery care free beer bashes and lotto for all in the WH instead of anger, subversion and liars with bad attitude.

    Plus, Baud would never embarrass us by appraising the French President’s wife as if she were a side of beef.

    Okay, yeah, Poco would for sure. But not Baud.

  115. 115.

    bupalos

    @Baud: talk to me about these ways she’s more “presidential.”

    I find this utterly fascinating. This shouldn’t be a question, but I guess it is.

  121. 121.

    bupalos

    @Mnemosyne: gotta admit, I’m shocked at these responses. She could “calm our allies” better? What does this mean. I feel like you guys are showing where on the doll Trump touched you.

  122. 122.

    Patricia Kayden

    @bupalos: Given what we have now, I’d prefer either Secretary Clinton or Pelosi in the White House. Doesn’t matter which one. Any Democratic politician except Manchin would be better than Trump.

  123. 123.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Mueller has had his job for two months. This is an investigation that could bring down an administration. They are going to make sure every i is dotted and and every t crossed before moving. Don’t expect anything to move fast.

  125. 125.

    Gvg

    @Roger Moore: if it’s obvious enough high crimes that the GOP Congress thinks Trump needs to be removed finally and then Ryan won’t schedule a vote on a new VP, the rest of his caucus will know he is doing it so he can be President. I am assuming Pence is also dirty as his behavior seems to me to strongly suggest. I think at that point Ryan may lose the speakership. Some others think they would make a better President, others will be angered by the underhandedness and he barely controls them anyway and hasn’t been good at keeping them together. To be fair, there are such significant differences that I don’t see how they can keep together.
    Back when trump picked Pence I thought they would fall out pretty fast. Hasn’t worked that way, and to me it looks like Russians everywhere. Really upsetting.
    Trumps speech defending Jr in Paris, shows he doesn’t have any clue of why help from the Russians is different from some American informant telling him something about Hillary. He is older than I am, how can he be so unaware of basic civics and cultural norms? He is so embarrassing yet again.

  126. 126.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @bupalos: Well, for one, she wouldn’t be a total embarrassment to the rest of the world on a daily basis

  127. 127.

    bupalos

    @Baud: That’s disappointing. It’s not a game, I’m just giving my real reaction, and honestly can’t understand on what dimension Clinton is preferable to Pelosi in the though experiment where we don’t actually live in a country so infested with racial hatred and resentment that Triumph of the Trump is actually going to come to an early end.

    Don’t you have an office to run for anyway?

  129. 129.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @bupalos: She is younger. And is the person who won the most votes last election. Nevermind the EC if this is a fantasy

  130. 130.

    Mnemosyne

    @bupalos:

    I feel like you guys are showing where on the doll Trump touched you.

    He grabbed us by the pu$$y like he does every woman he meets. You realize that joke isn’t funny when you apply it to an admitted rapist, right?

  133. 133.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Timurid: So when do we get the satisfaction of seeing Donny Jr. perp walked to a federal prison? Along with all the rest of the sleazy White House occupants.

  137. 137.

    jl

    Millions of ordinary citizens of the US are more qualified to be president of the US than Trump. And everyone with any sense knows that, even most of the repugnant GOPers on Congress.

    Millions of US citizens would have the wit and focus to figure out what the hell is in the Senate bogus health care bill, just as one, just one, example.

  139. 139.

    bupalos

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: When confronted with the idea that a pipeline company wants to build a compressor station on top of a currently living nun:

    Pelosi: “aw hell no, what the fuck are you talking about? Compress this!!!”
    Clinton: “I’m sure we can find a more appropriate place for the compressor station.”

    That would be a kind of off-the-cuff-measure for my progressive expectations

  140. 140.

    Mnemosyne

    @bupalos:

    No, we get it — you don’t understand why we would rather have a qualified person with a lot of international experience as president rather than a “progressive” figurehead you can point to as someone who’s not Hillary Clinton.

    The primary is long over. You don’t have to bitterly cling to your Anyone But Hillary stance anymore, which is what got us here in the first place, jackass.

  142. 142.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @bupalos:

    Pelosi is just objectively at least 2x the progressive that Ms. Clinton ever wanted to be. And still not progressive enough. But seriously, would folks here really prefer Hillary to Pelosi?

    Yes, actually, I would. Not that I don’t love Nancy SMASH!!, but her skill set is totally suited to being in Congressional leadership. She is the best as either Speaker or Minority Leader.

    But Hillary has a breadth of experience that would make her a much better POTUS than Pelosi. Of course, either one of them could and would run rings around Trump, Pence, Ryan, Hatch, and anyone else in the current order of presidential succession.

  153. 153.

    efgoldman

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    …up to and including even Manchin would be better than Trump.

    Considering the state he represents, and how quickly his electorate had devolved, Manchin is doing a hell of a job.

  156. 156.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Every time I see “SJW,” I have to take several minutes to remind myself that the acronym now stands for “Social Justice Warrioir” and not “Single Jewish Woman.”

  158. 158.

    jl

    Right now, Paul and Collins say they are firm ‘No’ on Senate tax cut pretending to be a health care bill.
    Heller, Capito, Murkowski, and other bogus spineless moderates, need to be informed non stop that their constituents are tired of their bullshit.

    Medicaid still slashed. Major insurers opposed to bill Cruz amendment funding is fraudulent. We all know McConnell is asking them to dishonestly vote for a dishonest bill, because McConnell told his whole rotten scheme to whole country: vote to slash Medicaid, but we’ll cook something up to cover for you later. Who is McConnell lying to, the reactionaries or the Moderates? Cruz amendment is another cave to the reactionaries and more punking of moderates. Disgusting display.

    Senate Republicans one vote away from Obamacare repeal failure
    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/13/senate-republicans-health-care-bill-cruz-lee-240498?platform=hootsuite

    Edit: don’t call them to try to get a commitment out of them. Call to politically scare the political crap out of them, so that these punks are too scared to do anything. Too scared to commit to anything, to murmur even a meek ‘maybe’ to Senate whip.

  161. 161.

    Mike in NC

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: A few years ago my wife talked me into seeing a so-called sleep specialist, who scheduled me for an overnight sleep study. It was very unpleasant because I lay away for hours and they lied about my symptoms on the report, so this doctor wanted me to undergo a follow-up study. The first one cost me about $700 out of pocket and I refused to submit to another.

    Later I went to my regular urgent care doctor and he gave me a prescription for sleeping pills with no questions asked. Ironically I never needed them and get by now with an over-the-counter medication. Long story short: don’t get ripped off by quacks.

  162. 162.

    bupalos

    @SiubhanDuinne: Talk to me about this “breadth of experience.”

    Jesus goddam it. What the fuck. Hillary is a good politician in her realm. So is Nancy in hers. But where in the FUCK would someone get the preference for the “Iraq war hellz yeah, super-predator politician over the California safe-seat politician?” I know these are now defined as Wilmer talking points but drop that and think about what we’re saying if we actually PREFER triangulating Clinton to out-and-proud Nancy.

    If you’ve stood on a corner collecting signatures for 10 hours you’ll know Pelosi is more your functional friend than Clinton. Not Clinton’s fault, but come on!

    I guess I’m open to it on some kind of long term strategic grounds of trying not to upset Republicans as much or something.

  163. 163.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @bupalos:
    I understand your hypothetical is hyperbole but you needed a more realistic scenario to convince me. In your childish exercise, Hillary and Pelosi would be in firm agreement: No to murdering a nun.

    Oh and by the by, the link in your name goes nowhere

  165. 165.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @efgoldman:

    Considering the state he represents, and how quickly his electorate had devolved, Manchin is doing a hell of a job.

    He’s godawful, but he’s our godawful.

  166. 166.

    jl

    Need a front post run down of the amazing BS on display re Senate tax cut pretending to be a health care bill. And state of play on vote count.

  169. 169.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @SiubhanDuinne: GODDAMNIT S.D. I WAS JUST ABOUT TO POST THAT!!!

    Do you people have some sort of rotating duty schedule for detecting my brain waves & then jumping into a thread before I can get there??? Who the hell is in charge of the Interociter????

    (ETA: Grrrrrrr……)

  170. 170.

    Jeffro

    @Baud:

    I can’t believe we’re inventing a fake primary war.

    Um, we’re Democrats, this is what we do…?

    No circular firing squad handy? NO PROBLEM! We’ll make one up.

    I think I’ll check back later…how much later, I’m not sure yet…

  171. 171.

    Jeffro

    @efgoldman:

    Considering the state he represents, and how quickly his electorate had devolved, Manchin is doing a hell of a job.

    True, but then again the pressure’s off: there’s a Caucasian back in the WH again. His constituents are largely content now.

  173. 173.

    Mary G

    @Tom Levenson: President Pelosi is my ideal karma for the Republican party, and because she has no fear, I would expect another wave of progressive legislation and hope that their killing the filibuster comes back to bite them in the ass big time/hang in there, Judge Kennedy.

  174. 174.

    TenguPhule

    @Keith P.:

    do Trump staffers not realize how much leverage they have over Trump (quitting would lead to a bad news cycle…multiple resigns would be another “Worst Week Ever”) or are they just that loyal to the cause that they let the boss get crazier and crazier.

    I would place bets on 1) Threats of Violence and 2) Threats of Financial Ruin. But threats against them definitely is a factor.

  177. 177.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @bupalos:

    You’re acting as though I’m slagging on Pelosi. I’m not; I greatly admire her, and if through some (pretty goddamn unlikely) chain of well-timed events she ended up in the Oval Office, sitting behind the Resolute, I would be the first to applaud and support her. Doesn’t change my point that her particular skills and gifts are better suited to being in a Congressional leadership role than to being POTUS.

    You are a silly person to frame what is a very unlikely chain of events as an ideological struggle between NP/HRC factions.

  178. 178.

    TenguPhule

    @Baud:

    I can’t believe we’re inventing a fake primary war.

    I can’t believe Trump hasn’t been arrested yet.

  179. 179.

    Patricia Kayden

    @jl: I can’t see things going well for Republicans if they pass Trump Care. It’s one thing to lie about something that is theoretical. It’s a whole other thing to take away something tangible.

    And they can’t find a way to blame the negative impacts of Trump Care on President Black Muslim Kenyan.

  180. 180.

    bupalos

    @SiubhanDuinne: skill set. Is the legislation you would or would’t sign now referred to as a “skill set?”

    I won’t be baited into running down Clinton, she’s a particular politician with a particular outlook and sensibility and god knows I wouldn’t have had to come face to face with how bad this country sucks if she had squeaked it out with her lame commercials about job training.

    But I’ll drop everything else and just ask again, why, in this mental exercise (that completely abstracts from the almost-certain fact that a president-that-already-would-have-been-impeached-if-he-was-going-to-be is going to continue to shout at us from his overton window for AT LEAST 4 years) is PREFERABLE to Pelosi? She’ll “calm people?” She’s “more qualified?” or “more stable?” Good god. Just step back and look at what that concedes.

  182. 182.

    TenguPhule

    @Major Major Major Major:

    let’s also not forget that they agreed to work for Trump so we know their brains do not function correctly.

    Trump is the kind of person who can only get dogs to follow him by holding raw bloody meat in both hands.

    And even then, he still has to wear a mask to hide his face for them to get anywhere near him.

  183. 183.

    TenguPhule

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    Do you people have some sort of rotating duty schedule for detecting my brain waves & then jumping into a thread before I can get there???

    It depends.

  184. 184.

    TenguPhule

    @Baud:

    To be fair, if it were any of us, it would be our only crime.

    To be fair, none of us would be stupid enough to try it.

  185. 185.

    efgoldman

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    I have to take several minutes to remind myself that the acronym now stands for “Social Justice Warrioir” and not “Single Jewish Woman.”

    I don’t remind myself of anything. It’s just one more useless (pejorative?) name. like “neoliberal.” It has no real meaning, nor should it. All bullshit. I’m really, really tired of bullshit.

  186. 186.

    bupalos

    @TenguPhule: word.

    And if the world worked the way it should, and that this board both denies and tries to assume it still does…. he would have been. Not that I’m throwing in with you and your stupid guns.

  187. 187.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Major Major Major Major: LOL!! I have two and they’d definitely be more empathetic and decent than the Sleazy White House Occupant. And possibly smarter as well. At the very least there would be no rage tweets.

  188. 188.

    Major Major Major Major

    @bupalos:

    Bubba’s mama baked pie, and her mama before her baked pie, and her mama before her mama baked pie, too.

    Well, there you go, Hillary’s husband would at least be bringing some excellent pie recipes to the White House. Does that count?

  190. 190.

    TenguPhule

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:

    Trump will still be POTUS 4 years from now. There are no magic fixes to this, only the ballot box.

    If our CIA doesn’t eventually step up to the plate and fix this, what the hell are we black budgeting them for?

  191. 191.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @bupalos:

    I have absolutely no idea what that venomous froth-mouthed spittle-flecked rant was meant to convey, and as of now I am going to follow only your recipes for lemon meringue pie.

  192. 192.

    Jeffro

    Sort of a side note: if collusion is really just ‘collecting oppo’ perfectly normal, and all these secret meetings with the Russians were really just normal meetings that ‘anyone would take’…why leave them off the disclosure forms, hedge about them, hide them, lie about them? Iz any of our national media asking that?

    Why’d they lie about them when asked the first (ten) time(s)?

  195. 195.

    efgoldman

    @bupalos: WHAT THE EARTHLY FUCKING FUCK DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE NOW, YOU SHITHEAD.

    ETA: Pied, to save what little is left of my blood pressure and my sanity.

  196. 196.

    Patricia Kayden

    @bupalos: So if someone in Secretary Clinton’s mold is the Democratic Presidential candidate in 2020, you’ll vote for …?

  197. 197.

    Chyron HR

    @Baud:

    I can’t believe we’re inventing a fake primary war.

    You’re just mad that you’re so far behind in the hypothetical delegate count.

  199. 199.

    bupalos

    @SiubhanDuinne: I’m not doing that. Follow it back. I was just surprised, in this thing that I’ve identified as a very wishful exercise multiple times, that Clinton’s policy choices are preferable to Pelosi.

    If you want to flesh out how it’s not about policy but temperament or something, go ahead, that’s what I’d like to understand. What is so superior about HC’s “skill set” that would make her a preferable president to NP’s more robust support (now fully baked in) for a full liberal agenda.

  206. 206.

    trollhattan

    Public service announcement: Portland rush hour traffic is just like rush hour everywhere else. Just not a hundred degrees.

    /PSA

  207. 207.

    germy

    So Peter Smith killed himself. That’s news to me.

    This dystopian novel we’re being forced to live in belongs in the slush pile.

  211. 211.

    bupalos

    @SiubhanDuinne: Oh noes!!! You plugged your ears because that was just too TOO for this board to suggest there’s no liberal reason to prefer Hillary to Pelosi? Well, I’ll tell you the secret to great pies then. Cold. Keep the dough cold. If you have some kind of circulatory disorder, much the better. The secret to the flaky crust is to keep the fat in the dough from melting and seeping as a liquid further through the dry particulate than need be. Flakiness is accomplished by enlarging the boundaries of dry particulate to fat. Also, eliminate the liquid (milk?) entirely. melt an equivalent amount of butter, allow it to rise to room temperature, and then commence as if it was milk.

  215. 215.

    Chyron HR

    Just a few weeks ago we were being told that Pelosi is “toxic” and has to be purged from the Democratic party, and yet now she’s the ONLY possible choice for the next President. Go fucking figure.

  217. 217.

    lollipopguild

    @Patricia Kayden: Yes they can blame Obama and they will blame Obama. They have already cut the commercials and written the talking points blaming Obama. NOTHING is ever their fault. Maybe when every elected GOP critter has to have armed body guards to protect them they will wake up but I really doubt it. They have created an alternate universe and are living in it.

  218. 218.

    efgoldman

    @Gin & Tonic:

    How’s your minor surgery thing these days?

    Thanks for asking.
    Healing nicely, but another two weeks or so (i.e. after the kids come and go next weekend) before I can actually start dialysis.
    Kidney failure is no fun, no fun at all.

  219. 219.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @bupalos: The skill set that makes someone a good legislative leader is different than the skill set that makes someone a good president. Can you name a successful president who came from a background as a successful legislative leader? Also, people are more than a list of policy preferences.

  221. 221.

    Turgidson

    @Tom Levenson:

    Best part of that would be that the very prospect of “President Pelosi” actually happening would cause so many right wing knuckledraggers’ heads to spontaneously combust that even with massive voter suppression, the GOP would be a minority party pretty much everywhere for the indefinite future.

  223. 223.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Can you name a successful president who came from a background as a successful legislative leader?

    /Checking to see if raven’s around. No? OK.

    For at least domestic measures of “successful”, a case can be made for LBJ.

    Yes, I know. Still…

  224. 224.

    MomSense

    @Major Major Major Major:

    My dog would not be a better president. She’s constantly showing everyone her crotch. She steals things and holds them ransom for cheese. She never sleeps and sometimes she howls for no good reason. If she had thumbs I’m sure she would tweet offensive things about cats, squirrels, and birds.

  225. 225.

    germy

    @MomSense:

    She’s constantly showing everyone her crotch. She steals things and holds them ransom for cheese. She never sleeps and sometimes she howls for no good reason.

    And this would be different from our current situation how?

  227. 227.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: @?BillinGlendaleCA: It’s like my pup who makes his own fun if there’s not enough going on.

    If we want to argue, let’s argue about who we want to see perp-walked the most, or perp-walked first.

  228. 228.

    bupalos

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: They actually wouldn’t be in agreement. Pelosi would look to stop the pipeline, Hillary would look to “make it work for everyone, all of the above.” I’ll agree, that’s largely a function of where they are as politicians, but at least AT LEAST Pelosi comes from there and is that.

    It is past the election, and we all do agree that Hillary isn’t running and nancy isn’t running and it doesn’t matter, so this isn’t some Russian plant or whatever- how do people here get right with the “super predator” thing? That was straight out “it’s ok to pretend you think black people are animals to get elected, that will work out fine. It’s a huge fucking thing in my book, and yes, I did vote for her, canvas for her, GOTV for her even if I did it a little half ass because I truly didn’t believe America was the shitty country that it’s since proved to be by electing Herr Shitstain.

  232. 232.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @efgoldman:

    Kidney failure is no fun, no fun at all.

    I am so sad for you. I doubt it will ever be fun, but I do hope it will become, at the very least, routine. And if a transplant is in your future, I want it to be successful in every possible way.

  233. 233.

    Shalimar

    @bupalos: “Skill set” means Pelosi is great at fundraising, organizing and keeping a diverse caucus in line on important votes. She is the most effective Congressional leader of the last 50 years. She is terrible at public relations and debating, which matter much more for a President.

  235. 235.

    bupalos

    @Omnes Omnibus: You’re talking about a VERY small sample set. Can you name a successful leader that was installed after impeachment instead of winning an election? It’s a very particular wishful exercise we’re doing here.

  236. 236.

    TenguPhule

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I know, but it should have been obvious by context. You were talking about the Predator and he used a capital A.

    I’ve poking fun at him. Also, I am a scifi nerd about proper names and classifications of killer xenos..

  237. 237.

    TenguPhule

    @bupalos:

    . Can you name a successful leader that was installed after impeachment instead of winning an election?

    There is always a first time for everything.

  238. 238.

    TenguPhule

    @WaterGirl:

    If we want to argue, let’s argue about who we want to see perp-walked the most, or perp-walked first.

    Walked, nothing.

    Dragged out by their feet, so their heads hit each and every concrete slab on the ground.

  239. 239.

    bupalos

    @Shalimar: I’ll disagree that she’s worse than HRC at PR. I think this was true 5 years ago but is especially true today. And her legislative skills and relations would serve her very well as potus, I’d argue better than hllary’s skills would serve her.

  240. 240.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @bupalos:

    It’s a very particular wishful exercise we’re doing here.

    Yes, and I would choose the person who I think would do the better job.

  241. 241.

    Dave

    @bupalos: Oh if we are doing that then I want Obama back. Maybe Michelle even if she is too smart to want a damned thing to do with the office.

  242. 242.

    a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)

    @bupalos: “policy choices” are not equal to “skill sets” Nancy Pelosi is God-empress of managing the House Democratic caucus, its factions and affiliates and of coordinating with the Senate. This is not a skill distributed evenly amongst humanity, or even among House Democrats, which is why all the attempts to replace her have ended up dead in the water. She would be wasted in the White House, and I am not sure we could quickly come up with anyone else who could, in the event of the hoped-for GOP collapse, hit the ground running to take full advantage of the situation even half as well as the Honorable Minority Leader. Again, this isn’t a question of policy choices; it’s a question of having the specific skills, abilities, and experience to Get Shit Done.

    Go study civics, starting with How A Bill Becomes Law, and well as, specifically, how the U.S. House of Representatives works before you post again. I’ll be looking at Key Lime pie recipes, although this is not Meringue Weather right now.

  244. 244.

    Iowa Old Lady

    My recollection is that there was an effort to remove Agnew before moving to impeach Nixon because Agnew was susceptible to more legal trouble. I may be misremembering that. It was a similar situation in that both men were horrifying.

  246. 246.

    trnc

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    They always say Cruz is a good debater and lawyer, they never said he was good at math.

    I’m still waiting for any evidence that he’s a good debater I have yet to hear a convincing argument of anything come out of his pie hole.

  250. 250.

    J R in WV

    @bupalos:

    @Baud: talk to me about these ways she’s more “presidential.”

    I find this utterly fascinating. This shouldn’t be a question, but I guess it is.

    Well, for starters, Secretary Clinton has four years as Secretary of State, meeting world leaders, something at which she has about 3 years and 9 months more experience than Congresswoman and Minority Leader Pelosi has.

  251. 251.

    mainmata

    @Mike in DC: I absolutely don’t get this business about Pelosi/Clinton becoming President. Hasn’t any of you looked at the actual order of Presidential succession?

  256. 256.

    No One You Know

    @TenguPhule: Yep. If I had to corrupt a nations’ electoral processes, I’d make sure I didn’t care which individual from the corrupt party took over. If I owned them all, I could even get plausible deniability out of it, playing off one against another while counting on party discipline to get me the votes I ‘paid for’ or the cover I need. And that’s true whether I’m named Putin, Koch, or Mercer.

  257. 257.

    Seth Owen

    @Jeffro: They have to be confirmed by the Senate, so it may not happen, depending upon who is picked. Is there anyone in the GOP today like Gerald Ford who can get uncontroversial support?

  258. 258.

    NotMax

    @Mike in DC

    Not really. In the case of succession, swearing in is traditional (and an expected nicety) but whomever it is IS the president the moment the high office is vacated. The oath (again, in the case of succession) can be sworn to hours or days later as a public affirmation but confers no office unto itself and is not a requirement under the 25th amendment..

  260. 260.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    My recollection is that there was an effort to remove Agnew before moving to impeach Nixon because Agnew was susceptible to more legal trouble.

    US Attorney for MD George Beall had Agnew dead to rights on felony charges of accepting bribes as Baltimore County Executive (1963-66), Governor (1967-9) & Veep. Beall, scion of the state’s most prominent Republican family, noted the storm clouds gathering over Nixon’s head & concluded that getting Agnew out of the line of succession to the Presidency ASAP was more important than an eventual conviction. With that in mind Agnew was allowed to plead nolo contendere (“no contest”) to the charges in exchange for resigning the Vice Presidency. (ETA: In October 1973. Gerry Ford was nominated & confirmed as VP under provisions of the 25th Amendment later that year, & succeeded to the Presidency when Tricky Dick resigned the next August.)

    Somewhere on my bookshelf I have a copy of Beall’s recounting of the process, ominously titled A Heartbeat Away.

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