"Game of Thrones" creators announce new show set in a world where slavery still exists https://t.co/qDPuHC2osE
— Washington Post (@washingtonpost) July 19, 2017
Me, a writing teacher: There are no bad ideas, just bad execution–
HBO's Confederate: *exists*
Me: *opens mouth, shakes head, walks away*— Shana Mlawski (@ShanaMlawski) July 19, 2017
Dear @HBO, if you want to spend millions on a show about slavery, pick up @UndergroundWGN. Not this #Confederate shit. Signed,ALL the Blacks
— Kellee Terrell (@kelleent) July 19, 2017
Yeah, as the CBC phrases it: “‘Sounds stupid as hell'”.
I am not and probably never will be an HBO subscriber (I explicitly subscribed to Netflix, back when it was just a disc-rental service, to watch cable shows without having to deal with cable companies), so the HBO suits won’t care what I think, but still. Yeah, the pseudo-historical intersection between “But what if the monster… isn’t actually dead?” and “Our chivalric dream shall never die!” can always start an argument, but how many people want to pay money to watch a cosplay version of the one we’re living all too vividly right now?
My prediction is that a Confederate “win,” 150 years after the original arguments, would’ve resulted in a continuing breakdown of the United States — bad ideas have consequences, too, and if one region “escapes” than a lot more states get fractious. Most of New England would’ve departed by the 1870s, possibly ending up as a Canadian province. The breadbasket area from Minnesota to the Rockies would be a bunch of possibly-allied semi-Calvinist networks (immigrant Scandinavian Protestant & Russian Orthodox farmers, Mormons, and versions of all the other fringe cults of the Second Great Awakening). Mexico would’ve successfully reclaimed parts of Aztlan, including most of Texas. Big chunks of the Rockies-adjacent areas would be just as underpopulated as they are today, but there would be more Native American tribal units, not to mention feral refugees from all the adjacent regions. Goddess only knows what northern California/Oregon/Washington would’ve come to, but I suspect the lingua franca would be either Russian or Mandarin. New Orleans would be the center of an ever-fluid “Black Free State”, probably doing better financially than its ‘Confederate’ neighbors. There would be dozens of tiny “free” baronies dotting the Appalachians, with more scattered in the adjacent fringes, wherever a handful of ‘Scots-Irish’ hillbillies or other malcontents felt called to resist the big gubmint encroachment of war-depleted, tax-starved state authorities. And the Mason-Dixon DMZ between the remaining United States (Connecticut through Indiana, approximately) and the Confederation would make the one now separating the Koreas look like a holiday resort.
***********
Stupid popcult ideas or otherwise, what’s on the agenda for the evening?
Iowa Old Lady
This is a terrible idea.
Spanky
Cue Rikyrah storming in in 3 … 2 … 1 …
hueyplong
God, I hate this shit. Why is HBO catering to that demographic? I’m not leaving all the disgust to Rikyrah.
Count me out of Game of Thrones.
Baud
I’m curious whether, in this telling, the Confederacy would be the only country in the world where slavery was legally permitted.
Baud
I hope there are dragons.
Grand dragons.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
I’d guess there was a pitch meeting, and someone noted the success of Man in the High Castle… imitation is the highest form of flattery (or mediocrity).
Spanky
… And since it’s a Open Thread, and since the rotating tag up top said “Yes we did”, I’d just like to point out that this is the anniversary of the first landing of men on the moon. Done by Americans, back when that thing was seen as hard, but not impossible, and worth the expenditure of time, money, and yes, blood.
I remember a few years later, driving home to Pittsburgh a few months after starting work at GSFC, and seeing dads point out my NASA parking sticker to their boys. That was a great feeling. Hope I’m still around when American technology and the kids who’ll be driving it are seen as heroes again.
clay
I have no opinion on the show itself, seeing as how it doesn’t exist yet, but the reactions to it have been embarrassing.
lamh36
This periscope from one of my fav online entertainment blogger…sums up exactly how many folks feel about this project:
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
It’s been done before, only second to Nazis winning ww2. If the Confedrates had won, they likely would have collapsed within a generation, followed by military dictatorship by the CS Army before being reabsorbed into the Union. Slavery would not have persisted into the present day sorry.
I’d rather the show be set near the collapse of a CSA like described above
Seth Owen
Actually, Anne, your version sounds interesting for a work of fiction.
lamh36
twitter.com/MrSpradley/status/887819747634663428
lamh36
@lamh36:
twitter.com/MrSpradley/status/887819747634663428
CZanne
I don’t trust DB and DW to pull this off.
I don’t hate the idea. I found Ben Winters’ Underground Airlines fascinating and horrifying. I think there are times that only counterfactual history/alternate history can portray an idea well enough to get through thick skulls. This can be handled, but it has to be handled the same way Ben Winters handled it — no sympathy for the oppressors. And I don’t trust DB/DW to handle that, and the reason I don’t trust them is because they have to be beaten about the head and shoulders to expand their white, male, wealthy horizons.
lamh36
Here’s a more “we’ll see” tone from Very Smart Brothas blog…even though like many of us, they still expect the worse from the guys who barely find a way to diversity Game of Thrones
A Ghost to Most
If this show airs, HBO loses my subscription. No need to give my relatives more bad ideas.
Baud
I’d like to see an alternative history of Western Civilization if Jesus escaped and spent the rest of his life on the lam.
debbie
This is something else white guys shouldn’t do.
Mr Stagger Lee
Netflix had a mocumentary called The Confederate States of America. The premise was about life in a modern Confederate society. With a “tragic” story of an up an coming politician a Southern version of a Kennedy. The commercials in it were based on real products that racist names like Coon Chicken In, among others.
jl
” Goddess only knows what northern California/Oregon/Washington would’ve come to, but I suspect the lingua franca would be either Russian or Mandarin. ”
A real California Republic, baby!
And President Brown would be extremely popular and respected around the world.
We’d be set to elect Obama soon, unless he decided to stay in the Republic of Hawaii.
Spanky
@Baud: Without looking it up online, I seem to recall that there’s a legend(?) of Jesus in India, post-crucifixion. Where’d I see that?
Not a made-for-TV alt-history, you understand. An actual story/legend.
m0nty
@Baud: Only if he is handcuffed to Barabbas.
Spanky
@debbie: Pretty much the most succinct summary I’ve seen to date. Seconded.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Don’t give Dan Brown any ideas.
lollipopguild
It took the second world war to bring the south into the 20th century(sorta). If the south had won the war or had left peacefully it would have been the poorest most backward country any of us can imagine.
lamh36
Anyway, how’s about some more interesting less eyerolling entertainment news.
Today is the first day of San Diego Comic Con, the big daddy of the ComicCons. I actually had a chance to get a set of badges for ComicCon this year. I signed up like 2 years ago and still get the emails, but I didn’t do it…
I shoulda tried to get me some badges…
Best thing about ComicCon…all the newest trailer for Sci-Fi, Comic & Niche market films!
Like this new Will Smith film…I’m not sure what this is, but color me intrigued..
Bright | Official Trailer [HD] | Netflix youtu.be/6EZCBSsBxko
TenguPhule
@Baud:
Judas was framed by the other traitorous apostles who were determined to use Jesus as the means to seize power and control people through organized religion forever. They betrayed and murdered their savior because he wouldn’t go along with it.
jl
@Mr Stagger Lee: OK, thanks for info, somebody already tried that very dubious idea. From info you gave, sounds like no good reason to try it again.
These guys want to be daring, how about an update of Sinclair Lewis’ ‘It Can’t Happen Here”.
Could mix it up with Twain’s ‘The Gilded Age’ if they want to go ‘action-comedy’.
TenguPhule
@jl:
Kingdom. Kingdom of Hawaii.
Bobby Thomson
Not to mention the Western Hemisphere axis power(s) during the 1930s.
TenguPhule
@Bobby Thomson:
Wouldn’t have come up, the Central Powers would have won WW I.
Immanentize
@Baud: Kazantzokis, “‘Last Temptation of Christ.”
A fabulous book. Really.
lamh36
Day 1, and two big trailer drops were new extended Red band trailer for Kingsman: Golden Circle.
My first reaction, same as my first reaction to the original movie: THEY HAD ME AT COLIN FIRTH!!!!!!
Added bonus: #TBT to That Time Archer Met Kingsman youtu.be/sFZkoNJ3DxE
Betty Cracker
@Seth Owen: Agreed! I’d watch that!
Regarding the HBO thing, I’m confused about the reaction to it, TBH. Maybe because I don’t know enough about the named producers to understand the objections — perhaps they have some awful track record I don’t know about.
A lot of people seem to assume they’d portray the modern-day CSA in a positive light somehow. That seems wildly unlikely. My guess is it would be akin to the way “Handmaid’s Tale” portrays a sexist dystopia.
Anyhoo, I’m reserving judgment until I know more about it.
jl
@Baud:
” I’d like to see an alternative history of Western Civilization if Jesus escaped and spent the rest of his life on the lam. ”
An alternative history of life under the Baud administration would make a unique campaign book for 2020.
Need to be general audience version, in addition to unexpurgated adults only text with companion CD set with the p * r _ oh clips.
jl
@TenguPhule: Republic. We are doing alternative history.
Or since Obama wouldn’t be able to do PPACA (they would already have universal health care) he would turn it from a Kingdom into a Republic.
Viva BrisVegas
If a couple of white guys want to go down this road they’d do far better to dramatise “Bring the Jubilee” than make up their own shit about slavery.
You’ve got to feel the subject. I don’t see that happening here.
As an aside, the first thing that an independent Confederacy would have done would have been to annex Cuba and most of the Spanish Caribbean and reintroduce slavery.
That was the aim of the filibusters of the 1840s and 50s. I think they would have seen Mexico as pretty indigestible, just as in 1848.
Anne Laurie
@Spanky:
From 40-year-old memories of my parochial-school education, there’s a very old pocket of Catholics around what is now Goa in India. The “legend” was that its founder was St. Thomas the Apostle, the original ‘Doubting Thomas’, fleeing Roman persecution after Jesus’ death & resurrection. And Thomas may or may not have been Jesus’ cousin or half-brother, depending on which obscure medieval text you chose to believe, so “Our Lord’s sacred bloodline” might sorta-kinda have been carried down via Thomas…
Very thin gruel, you might say, but I knew a couple Indian-American Catholic kids who swore that made them ‘more Catholic’ than the rest of us Yurpeen immigrants. Let’s just say, Dinesh D’Souza is not the only ex-Goan with exaggerate ideas of his own importance.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@jl:
Hate to burst your bubble, but the butterfly effect would likely make Obama’s birth unlikely
TenguPhule
@jl: Kingdom. A weakened US would not have been able to overthrow the established monarchy and the royal family had established enough diplomatic connections to prevent being simply gobbled up by other colonizing powers. Given its location in the middle of the Pacific, lots of interests would want to see it as a neutral power since nobody would want any of their rivals to have it.
lamh36
New movies opening this weekend… Valerian… Dunkirk, and Girls Trip.
I’m sure some folks may see Valerian (it was a book or something right?), and Dunkirk has it’s niche audience, but my money is on Girls Trip taking the weekend…with only 2 niche films coming out, and other summer blockbusters already 2-4 weeks old, I’m thinking Girls Trip is the one to beat. Plus is has been getting alot of buzz online and screenings have bee positive.
currently sitting at 86% fresh on RT…
me and my sisters, will be seeing Girls Trip on Sunday. From what I’ve heard, Tiffany Haddish, RUNS AWAY with the funny in Girls Trip. She is the breakout star of the film. if there is a “entertainment” God, Tiffany Haddish will get the breakout star treatment, like Melissa McCarthy kinda did after Bridesmaids!
twitter.com/jimmykimmel/status/888009864412250112
Splitting Image
Allow me to suggest a simpler counterfactual:
The Confederacy was a monetary union without being a real political one, much like today’s European Union. The rich populous states would have pursued a monetary policy that benefited themselves to the detriment of the smaller, poorer frontier states and the whole edifice would have collapsed. I give it 10 years at the most.
Europe only holds together as well as it does because enough Europeans are afraid of nationalism that they are committed to making it happen. Confederates would have begun their experiment with a strong commitment to “states’ rights”.
The only question is whether Texas or South Carolina would have been the first to secede from the Confederacy. I put four quatloos on South Carolina.
Jeffro
Could we get an HBO series exploring an alternate reality where all the votes are counted, the country is governed responsibly and well by experts in their fields, and where every family gets health care? Where the kids go to schools that look like palaces and nobody shoots up a pizza parlor because of something they heard on the internet?
Hell, I’d watch that 24/7. Take me away, Matrix.
jl
@Betty Cracker: I didn’t think they would paint a flattering portrait of modern day chattel slavery. I just think that that setting for commentary on inequality and racism is by now too tired and stereotypical to make good drama or good social commentary.
But, I could be wrong. Whether it happens depends on what the writers come up with. I’m willing to be surprises.
The way i watch TV, I’d only see it a five years it was over on CD or downloaded, anyway.
Jeffro
Annnnnd breaking news: Trumpov’s lawyers are looking at ways to use his pardon powers to get him out of trouble (re: Russia)
Should be interesting, as once they’re pardoned, they have no fifth amendment rights…right?
TenguPhule
@Splitting Image: Between the witch burnings and the slave raiding, they’d both become lawless hellholes in short order.
A Ghost to Most
WaPo
TenguPhule
@Jeffro:
Since all the other Constitutional norms have already been suspended, why not one more?
He can pardon all he wants and we still try, convict and execute the whole bunch anyway and call it a mulligan.
raven
TenguPhule
@A Ghost to Most:
This is not the behavior of an innocent man.
Just saying.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
What are the odds of an independent CSA transforming into a military dictatorship?
jl
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: @TenguPhule:
You people are real killjoys with the downer alternative histories.
No Obama? No way! Bidens and Obamas exist in all fun and worthy alternative histories that will bring in some cash. And they raise some hell in all alternative histories that go up to now.
Hawaii would be a Constitutional Monarchy.
Unless Obama forces the change in Hawaii through a wonderful velvet revolution with magic unicorns, rock candy mountains, gum drop clouds and rainbows, which would make a better book.
Quit yelling at me to get off my lawn, dammit!
lamh36
More from SDCC…
Oooh… I am ready…are you?
Starting the end of January, through early March, one 5 week period, will be like the best 5 weeks of 2018 for diversity in films: Proud Mary (Taraji P Henson plays a femme fatale assassin!!!), Black Panther, Pacific Rim: Uprising, and Wrinkle in Time.”
WaterGirl
never mind
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@jl:
On Alternatehistory.net, realism is considered a must. Obama surviving no matter how big and far-reaching the POD (point of divergence) is considered a cliche there.
jl
@A Ghost to Most: Trump can pardon all he wants. Seems he is a little late to stop the investigation, including looking into his history of sketchy finance. Seems like Mueller is not standing in the way of public disclosure, since he has OK’d the requests for Congressional hearings and testimony so far.
Jeffro
Worth a full read: Trumpov team seeks to control, block Mueller’s Russia investigation.
The GOP is going nowhere fast and Trumpov is disintegrating before our eyes. Mueller is going for broke. There is no way this doesn’t blow up within a week, two tops.
A Ghost to Most
@TenguPhule:
Probably won’t change the minds of many rethugs
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Poor, they lacked the discipline and trained people needed to maintain that kind of regime. Not to mention the terrain wouldn’t favor that level of enforced order. Smuggling would be rampant and corruption would result in a leadership too weak and poorly funded to keep a strong military.
schrodingers_cat
@Anne Laurie: You have got Goa and Madras mixed up, also St. Thomas and St Francis Xavier. I don’t think that Indian Catholics believe that Jesus was in India, this is the first time I have heard that.
lamh36
@Betty Cracker: please check out the link I posted from Film Fatale on why many are having the reaction they are. She’s a consistent critic on diversity in entertainment media, and she an avid film, tv fan as well, including Game of Thrones…
She articulated it very well, many of the points to why the reaction that you didn’t understand, happened
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@TenguPhule: The object is to stay in power and out of jail. They don’t care what it looks like.
TenguPhule
@jl:
Whatever changes you make must still reflect all the other actual things going on at the time.
The kingdom of Hawaii was allied to the US and Great Britain and had friendly relations with Russia, China and Japan at the time.
Kristine
@Seth Owen: I think so, too. The baronies bring to mind the AMC series The Badlands, a post-disaster feudal world.
TenguPhule
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: My object is they fail at all of it. I’m not picky about how its done either.
lamh36
@Betty Cracker: Handmaids Tail is a fantasy, they could have happened, but didn’t. It’s NOT historical fact.
Slavery in America as we know, WASN’T a fantasy, and it wasn’t REALLY that long ago in the history of this nation.
jl
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: OK. I’ll go my own way with the alternative history. I don’t care.
Obama and Baud are in all time streams, the POD can go eat some shit.
Obama does great works, followed by the glorious Baudist era free beer, sex and endless flows of lotto money for all.
@TenguPhule: I fart in the general direction of all you people’s alternative history rules.
Iowa Old Lady
@lamh36: The movie that literalized the metaphor of making people’s heads explode
lamh36
schrodingers_cat
@lamh36: I get the outrage, its as if some Brit were to make a series that Britain still had an Empire and India was the crown jewel. This is even worse because the British are no longer in India. But United States just elected a white nationalist as the President.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat:
Hasn’t that already happened?
A Ghost to Most
@TenguPhule:
The traitors were out-supplied by the north. The US could replace their losses, the traitors couldn’t. It wasn’t if, it was when, if the will existed, which it did.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
My thinking was that the central government would have been too weak (like the US under the Articles) and the Army would have decided to take control after the civilian government collapsed to ensure continued supplies for the military
TenguPhule
@lamh36:
Sorry, gotta call you out on this one.
It was historical fact for women until universal sufferage.
They were chattel.
Handmaid merely showed an updated version of prior historical norms.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: I would be a lot more comfortable with the idea of something like this if it weren’t two white guys. No matter how well-intentioned they may be, I fully expect that they will cock it up.
WaterGirl
@lamh36: I agree that she is completely innocent and her death is a terrible tragedy and a travesty. More innocent than a boy holding skittles in his hand? More innocent than someone who got sassy with the police for not using a turn signal? What about that kid who was riding a bicycle while black?
Mr Stagger Lee
Another controversial product was toothpaste called Darki which was a big seller in Asia. They was still selling it two decades ago
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: I think debbie got it right when she said:
rikyrah
HELL, MUTHAPHUCKIN’ NO.
I can’t get UNDERGROUND to be picked up by anyone, but, we’re going to have two WHITE people, do a show about the SOUTH WINNING THE CIVIL WAR?
Hell muthaphuckin’ no.
No. I’m not going to ‘give it a chance’.
These folks have done nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING to qualify them being given ‘ a doubt’.
And PHUCK HBO for Ok’ing this bullshyt.
If it were Ava DuVernay announcing this, I wouldn’t be upset.
If it were Spike Lee, I wouldn’t be upset.
If it were Kasi Lemmons, I wouldn’t be upset.
If it were the Production team from UNDERGROUND, I wouldn’t be upset.
There is NOTHING in the work product of these two that makes me, as a Black person, believe that they, IN ANY WAY, should be doing this show.
This will not end well.
And, No, I don’t have to ‘ give it a chance’.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Omnes Omnibus:
Confederate will either be a great social commentary, if not a realistic alt history (chattel slavery in 2017 on the level of 1860? Get real) or a cringy clusterfuck
rikyrah
@lamh36:
That video was on point
jl
An interesting alternative current history would a world where Trump did what he promised in interviews during the campaign.
Fulfill his populist campaign promises, including protection of social insurance, and public infrastructure program.
And to ditch all the bigot campaign BS, and adopt something resembling a presidential sense of dignity and responsibility.
And learn about all that crap he didn’t know.
As for this precious ‘point of departure’ and realistic time stream garbage people are hectoring about, that is simple. In my alternative history, a Just God exists, and He sends an angel who needs to earn his wings down to earth, named Clarence. Who throws Trump in the river and kicks his ass until Trump has a conversion.
Which makes me think a ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’ adapted to the first six months of 2017 might do some good, if it could be produced quickly enough and Trump forced to watch it. Or better, a mix of ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’ and ‘A Christmas Carol’
Now, who should play the Bobby Three Sticks of Prosecutions Future? Ho ho ho!
Edit: Christie would make a good Tiny Tim.
Edit2: in my alternative history, Christie would be merely misguided and in need of redemption. Also alternatived from the POD through divine intervention.
The Thin Black Duke
I’m not looking forward to the awkward interviews with the black actors appearing in this piece of shit.
Anne Laurie
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Getting a bright young Kenyan grad student with political ambitions transferred to someplace in a fractured North America where he can meet up with an aspiring Kansan girl would stretch the creativity muscles, that’s fer damshur.
No Civil War, no 1960s “American Empire” trying to spread its version of democracy by paying overseas students to come study in the heartland. And from the other side, a fractured America almost certainly changes the outcome of WWI, which would change the trajectory of the British Empire, which would result in a Kenya and a Kenyan population where the elder Obama would be living a very different life…
debbie
I watched all the interviews on the DVDs when I binged all six seasons. I’m really quite surprised they are this tone deaf. They seemed smarter.
nightranger
I hope it gets made just for the shit show spectacle. I have a feeling HBO is having second thoughts after all the negative press.
Anne Laurie
@schrodingers_cat:
Quite probably, my very old memories are obviously not a citable source! But the kids I knew didn’t say Jesus had ever been in India, just that his blood relative had left descendents there. And of course religious “science” is a very chancy field, especially in the hands of middle schoolers repeating what they thought they’d heard from their parents & grandparents.
Betty Cracker
@lamh36: Actually, every single form of oppression depicted in Handmaid’s Tale — including the concept of a “handmaid” — is based on historical fact. Atwood’s primary inspiration for the book was the treatment of women after the Iranian revolution.
I read the Smart Brotha’s piece you linked, and I agree 100% with their assessment. They’re skeptical. They note that white men’s ideas often get funded even if they’re shitty ideas. But they aren’t dismissing the HBO series sight unseen; they’re waiting to learn more before passing judgment.
jl
@Anne Laurie: If history could get Muslim refugees from North Africa to form a thriving community in Charleston SC in the early republic, and a slave holding aristocrat named Pinkney to defend their rights, then we can do anything in our BJ alternative histories
I throw off all alternative history chains!
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
John Boyega is young enough to be my son, and yet I still want to snuggle him.
Yes, I’m a little ashamed of myself.
schrodingers_cat
@Anne Laurie: I have known Goan Catholics who were quite proud of their Saraswat Brahmin roots and I have also met others, who thought they were more Portuguese than Indian. Dinesh D’Souza is by far not the only one as you put it.
ETA: Many of these upper caste converts would call their lower caste Catholic/Orthodox (in Kerala) brethren bread/rice Christians.
jl
Confederacy was so poorly designed, the confederate states retained so much sovereignty, had so much power to foil national unity and instruments of national power, the damned thing would have fallen apart. Union would have slowly absorbed them back. Probably Tennessee first. A small rump state in deep South now of die-hards would be all that is left.
Mnemosyne
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I can tell you now: it will be a cringy clusterfuck.
Frankly, I doubt it’s ever going to get to the air at all, and the creators will whinily blame “PC culture” when in fact it was a crap idea that they couldn’t execute in a coherent way.
The Thin Black Duke
Yeah, I know the show hasn’t happened yet, but you want to bet they’ll be a sympathetic slave owner we’re supposed to feel sorry for?
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Anybody read “Lovecraft Country” by Matt Ruff? HBO is developing that with Jordan Peele. Fantastic book.
jl
@Anne Laurie: There is a goofy theory been around for a while that Jesus went to India and studied Buddhism in his 20s. That is probably what you are thinking about.
schrodingers_cat
@Anne Laurie: World War I was really the beginning of the end of British rule in India.
lamh36
@Betty Cracker: Ok so did you watch the video link I posted as well as the VSB blog post? Because while I get that VSB blog post is more attractive to those inclined to always give the benefit of the doubt to folks who have shown no record of being good at diversity, but I actually lean towards Film Fatale’s side more, and it seems like a majority of Black folks who know and watch GoT and know the work that this guys have done on GoT.
Anyway, let’s just bookmark this post to be added later to the “Black folk tried to tell ya this was a bad idea” folder…that folder is alot thicker than the “let’s see how it goes” folder…
BCHS Class of 1980
I have far fewer problems with the GoT adaptations than many in the fandom, though more effort to diversify from GRRM’s largely white bread world would have been appreciated. As for this idea though, not only NO! but HELL NO! given that two white dudes proposed it. I’m surprised HBO didn’t say, “Cool idea dudes. Why don’t we bring in a PoC to act as showrunner for stupidity insurance.” To me that is the only way to even attempt this incredibly not-good idea.
schrodingers_cat
@jl: Where do you guys hear these theories? I have never heard this one either.
Mnemosyne
@The Thin Black Duke:
HBO is the channel that made a Mafia don into a sympathetic character, so of course they will.
If HBO really wanted to do some edgy alternative history, they should have optioned Django Unchained as a weekly series and had Django traveling all around the South during the war kicking ass and slaughtering slave owners. Now that would be some alternative history worth watching!
WaterGirl
@The Thin Black Duke: “He treated his slaves so well!”
jl
@schrodingers_cat: I have an interest in early Christian history and late antiquity, so have come across a number of odd theories about what went on. Lot’s of very obscure stuff in every subject.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne:
It’s a shame. A collapsing CSA 20-30 years after the Civil War is something I haven’t seen before and could work if the main character was an African American.
That’s my idea anyway
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne:
Nucky Thompson?
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: He will be “conflicted” about slavery – like Tommy J.
jl
@WaterGirl: Best way to ‘treat slaves well’ is to give them their freedom.
Actually, several planters did that, including the historical figure that I read Mohammad Ali’s was named after, Cassius Clay.
They tended to be ornery rabblerousers, who could not be sympathetic slave holders since they put themselves out of business as soon as they realized the evil they were doing.
schrodingers_cat
@jl: I thought you were pulling our leg.
The Thin Black Duke
@Mnemosyne: If HBO had the guts, they would resurrect Lorraine Hansberry’s The Drinking Gourd.
Mnemosyne
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I certainly think it’s possible to make a really interesting alternative history show about the Confederacy winning the war (or at least fighting the North to a standstill). I just doubt this is the show to do it.
One thing that would probably be required to make the story work: eliminating/neutralizing Lincoln as a factor, either by assassinating him in his first term or by having him lose the election in 1864 and having the (presumably) Copperhead Republican sue for peace.
lamh36
@The Thin Black Duke: for real…though…what in the what 7 seasons of GoT…where this two have been show runners leads ANYONE to believe that the guys who can barely write diverse stories for give the few diverse character on GoT the past seasons, will miraculously be better at a show that likely to have EVEN more P.O.C. to write for?
Add to this the fact that these same show runners who have been dinged for their lack of diverse storytelling for their characters of color, THIS idea just came up in their heads….
Sure…ok
Mnemosyne
@The Thin Black Duke:
Never heard of it, but it sounds fascinating. I’m not surprised the TV executives of 1960 chickened out — there was a reason why Rod Serling had to write his stuff as parables and metaphors.
lamh36
@BCHS Class of 1980: they actually mentioned 2 writers of color who are also attached…but let’s be real here…the power is in the hand of the showrunners, and unless they give the 2 writers REAL power in shaping stories, even then, it’s STILL the showrunners who have the last word power…
and i’m sorry, I just don’t trust these two showrunners based on their previous work
schrodingers_cat
@TenguPhule: Are you talking about the The Jewel in the Crown? That show had its moments. I find these Raj nostalgia shows unwatchable, the Indian Summers was awful. The younger Indian characters didn’t seem remotely plausible and tropical Malaysia was a stand in for temperate Shimla.
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
Hmmm. This is making me wonder if the actual idea came from those two writers, and the showrunners are proposing to be the showrunners. It’s a fairly common thing to have happen in Hollywood — basically, the writers agree to co-creator credit with better-known showrunners so they can get their project made.
But I would need to read the actual story to be sure, I suppose.
Anne Laurie
@schrodingers_cat:
Yup — in this timeline.
In a world without a continent-spanning United States, who knows? IMO, without America assistance (however grudging & belated) probably some portion of the British aristocracy would’ve come to an agreement with the Kaiser (since they were, genuinely, cousins). Under such a scenario, does the expanded German Empire take over from the Regency on the subcontinent?
Or do the various Indian subkingdoms take the opportunity to unite and kick the European invaders out entirely?
Or does the semi-independent British-Indian Company decide to declare itself an independent nation in imitation of America’s Confederates?
Anne Laurie
@jl:
Nah, that particular ‘New Age’ theory is a lot younger IIRC — 1970s/early 80s. What my baby sister called ‘crystal-bunny woo-woo’.
Amaranthine RBG
The reflexive, unthinking hostility towards the HBO series is baffling.
Let’s just set aside the racist notion that this is a story that should not be told by teh WHITES for a minute.
There is the possibility, you know, that a series that deals with slavery will actually have a point of view that is not pro-slavery. People who think otherwise probably assume that the Sopranos was an endorsement of the mafia and the Wire was an endorsement of street corner drug dealing.
Come on you ignorant twats, think just a little.
Anne Laurie
@jl:
Yeah, those guys and the Republic-of-Jones folks were the ones who convince me the Confederacy would be dotted with “free baronies”. The so-called Scots-Irish are my people, and we can’t get along with anyone in a group larger than a handful of families continually under siege by outside forces.
Uncle Cosmo
@Mr Stagger Lee: I remember on my first trip to Prague (summer 1989) my head was on a swivel – every third shop in the Old Town had a sign that read Darký. Which, as it happens, is only the Czech word for “Gifts”.
(Analogous experience in Dresden the next summer – place was plastered with posters for a carnival that was going to set up in Fučíkplatz. The font used was a variation on Playbill, all caps, which is very tall & narrow; the “i” blended into the foreleg of the “k”, the hacek atop the “c” was tiny, & once again my head was on a swivel as I saw FUCKPLATZ everywhere in the corner of an eye…)
jl
@Anne Laurie: Below is a link to interesting article on blacks fighting for Confederacy. Spolier alert: it happened mostly early in the Civil War when planters forced their slaves to fight, before the Union troops had authority to free all slaves captured or fleeing from Confederate territory.
In the last few months of the war, the Confederacy offered freedom to slaves who would be willing to fight (edit: if their owners gave permission!). But the articles says that only around 100 men were known to have fought under that scheme. So, slavery was such a minor issue (snark alert!) to the rich supporters of the Confederacy, that the planters would rather hold on to their human property, rather than free them in a desperate last chance to save their new country. And the offer was only for the men who fought, not their families, so the planters would not have been put out of business by releasing some of their slaves.
And again, as I said before, with the extreme federalism of the Confederacy, and the attitude of the powerful slave owner planters, the contraption would have started to fall apart as soon as they had won the Civil War. I think that story would be an interesting and salutary alternative history.
Yes There Were Black Confederates. Here’s Why
theroot.com/yes-there-were-black-confederates-here-s-why-1790858546
PJ
@Uncle Cosmo: Julius Fučík was a Czech Communist journalist who was executed by the Nazis during WWII. Presumably, this is whom the East Germans named the square after. But there was also an earlier Julius Fučík who was a famous composer.
jl
If the Confederacy had won, we have examples of the kind of vicious self-righteous hypocritical and incompetent twerps who would have run it who walk among us this very day. One of them is the current US Attorney General. Yeebus. With a ruling class crew like that, the thing wouldn’t last more than a few months.
momus
Found — one Lost Cause to claim call HBO.
carcin
Which is the rational position for any critic to take, making it better than 99% of the hot take dumbfuckery instant reaction floating around.
And the idea that white dudes _couldn’t possibly_ write anything worthwhile examining slavery is an odd position to take, given that, well, it was sort of white dudes that were the whole problem – to say nothing of the very existence of people like David Blight.
carcin
@momus: Are we really playing with the idea that this is anything but a dystopian portrayal?
divF
@Amaranthine RBG: And *you* get a pie…
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amaranthine RBG:
Yet you have no compunctions against using “twat”. Classy. Pie for you
Omnes Omnibus
@carcin: And yet we are skeptical.
Omnes Omnibus
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Longtime 2d Amendment advocate and contrarian. Not sure about the sincerity of the contrarian pose. The gun shit seems to be heartfelt.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@carcin:
This makes no fucking sense. Could they write something worthwhile on the subject? Sure, they could. It just looks like bad unrealistic alt-history at this point. Who better to write about oppression than those who experience it nearly every day of their lives? Probably not the two white guys
However, I will wait and see if I’m proven wrong
Amaranthine RBG
@carcin:
The level of stupid is staggering.
Uh. Slavery bad. Slavery on teevee bad. Slavery hurt black people. Teevee hurt black people.
Jesus fucking christ.
Facebones
@Betty Cracker: Yeah, that’s my take. Mystified by those who think this will be pro-slavery. This exists as a pitch right now, with no script or footage to judge it if on. I’m quite willing to give the GOT team the benefit of the doubt and wait to see an actual episode before I call this the most racist show ever.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’ve seen them around occasionally. Contrarian is right
Mnemosyne
@carcin:
You seem to have missed the point. It’s not that there are no white dudes who could tell a good, compelling, compassionate story about slavery. I guarantee you that there are at least a few white dudes involved in the making of the abovementioned current show, “Underground.”
What people are doubting based on their track record to date is that these specific white dudes are going to be able to make an alt-history show about the Confederacy that’s anything but exploitative, neo-racist crap.
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Also a misogynist, frequently demonstrated.
Amaranthine RBG
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
“It just looks like bad unrealistic alt-history at this point.”
Oh, have you seen a trailer? A script?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Facebones:
I don’t think it will be pro-slavery and might not be racist. The premise has been done to death in alt-history and would need to have a unique twist to make it good.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Sorry, I wasn’t meaning to be all inclusive.
carcin
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Here, I’ll quote you again. Maybe you can see the problem:
There is nothing to _look_ at!
Mnemosyne
@Facebones:
I had to stop watching GoT because the torture porn and exploitative treatment of women finally got to me. My breaking point was when they had rats eating people alive from the inside.
So, no, I really don’t want to see a show about the horrors of chattel slavery from that creative team, thank you anyway.
carcin
@Mnemosyne: So the same gentleman (Benioff) who has had his work filmed by Spike Lee is now a neoconfederate? You’re trying too hard to be outraged (at this point).
carcin
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
One presumes it won’t make it to series unless it indeed does the above. Right now it sounds like pretty vanilla alt-history, but, c’mon, it’s sole description lives in a press release…
Mnemosyne
@carcin:
See my comment above — I had to stop watching GoT because the torture porn was too persistent and lovingly detailed for me.
So, no, I really don’t want to see that same sensibility brought to the subject of American slavery. Thanks anyway, no sale.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@carcin:
What I said:
I was under the assumption that there was a trailer or script or at least a summary.
Amaranthine RBG
@carcin:
Well, she is the one above who actually posted above that HBO made a mafia Don into a sympathetic character so her understanding of cinema/art/storytelling is, shall we say a bit stunted.
She probably thinks that Richard III is fan fiction about tyrants.
Too dumb for words.
(Thanks for catching the typo Omnes, you have a bright future as a proofreader or maybe a paralegal ahead of you!)
Omnes Omnibus
@carcin: Why are you so vested is defending it?
Omnes Omnibus
@Amaranthine RBG: “Too” Just saying.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amaranthine RBG: You are aware that Mnem has a film degree, correct?
Mnemosyne
@Amaranthine RBG:
Yep, only a moron would think that Tony Soprano was an “attractive, appealing murderer.”
Remind me, what year did you get your degree from Oxford, again?
carcin
To dive down a tangent, something that has always irked me:
“Lovingly detailed” torture portrayals….what exactly does unlovingly detailed torture look like on film? (Other than the latest DC universe movie or House of Cards)
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@carcin:
Then one presumes wrong. Just look at Captain Planet and how that turned out. Plenty of published and green lit stuff has turned out bad. Execs aren’t any better than anyone else at picking what will be good and what will suck
Mnemosyne
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Two of them, actually. ? Cinema-Television Critical Studies from USC and an MFA in Screenwriting from Loyola Marymount. Plus I’m a former freelance film critic.
So, clearly, I’m underqualified to talk critically about film and television.
Amaranthine RBG
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
And Trump has an MBA. That make him, like a high-quality executive, right?
Mnemosyne
@carcin:
Honestly? I refer you again to the above blood-soaked Tarantino revenge epic, Django Unchained. The film never loses sight of how horrifying it is that the enslaved characters are being treated as playthings by their cruel masters.
carcin
@Omnes Omnibus: I like Benioff’s work, in particular, (25th Hour, City of Thieves, When the Nines Roll Over, ferex) and find instantly dialing the outrage meter to “neo-Nazi Lost Causer” incredibly distasteful, from people who should know (and know Benioff’s politics) better.
Not that any commenters here should necessarily, but like in all comment sections, the me-too-ism is apparent in this reaction (see: “I thought there was a trailer or script….”)
Amaranthine RBG
@Mnemosyne: @Mnemosyne:
1986.
And remind me again what it’s like to work as a secretary.
carcin
@Mnemosyne: Might be my favorite Tarantino. Good point, but I’d suggest many would tar Tarantino with the same “too-loving depictions of violence” brush…
Omnes Omnibus
@Amaranthine RBG: Trump has a Bachelors degree from Penn. Next?
Mnemosyne
@Amaranthine RBG:
Actually, he doesn’t:
But, please, keep digging.
@Amaranthine RBG:
Wow, you’re actually that much older than I am and you still act like a child on the internet? Christ, that’s sad.
carcin
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: True, but HBO has a (deserved, IMO) reputation for quality. (Don’t look too closely at True Detective Season 2)
Mnemosyne
@Amaranthine RBG:
It’s pretty awesome being a secretary, actually. I have a great boss, I make $60K a year because I belong to a union, and I get free admission to any Disney park except the one in Tokyo. And that’s leaving aside the top-notch health insurance and other bennies. How’s your corporate job?
Amaranthine RBG
@Omnes Omnibus:
Now you’re embarrassing yourself.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amaranthine RBG:
An MBA is a useless degree anyway just because of the curriculums that are taught at several top universities
Amaranthine RBG
@Mnemosyne:
Wait, someone who works for Disney is griping about portrayal of blacks?
You are outstanding.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amaranthine RBG: Asswipe. STEM isn’t for everyone and there’s no such thing as a useless degree aside from an MBA. Studying film is, I presume, what Mnem wanted to do in her life or use some facet of it in her career
Omnes Omnibus
@Amaranthine RBG: You are an idiot. How am I wrong? Please do offer proof of Trump’s MBA.
Mnemosyne
@carcin:
To be clear, for me at least it’s specifically the too-loving depictions of torture that are the problem with GoT, not just violence in general. And I would say that Tarantino really isn’t all that big on torture porn even though his movies are extremely violent.
Though I have to admit that I haven’t seen The Hateful 8 yet. The reviews turned me off. I’ll get caught up on it eventually.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@carcin:
I’ll give it the benefit of the doubt for now, but I have my reservations
Amaranthine RBG
@Omnes Omnibus:
Learn to use Google, Moran.
Mnemosyne
@Amaranthine RBG:
Yep. I take it you never bothered to see The Princess and the Frog. Or The Queen of Katwe. And you failed to notice which TV network Shonda Rimes works for, and who the current head of drama for ABC is. And you’re definitely going to skip Ava Duvernay’s adaptation of A Wrinkle in Time because there’s something you just don’t like about her, but you can’t quite articulate what it is.
But, sure, Disney made some racist movies 60 years ago, and obviously absolutely nothing in this country has changed since Song of the South came out in 1949. Good one.
Mnemosyne
@Amaranthine RBG:
As I showed above, even Wikipedia says that Trump only has a bachelor’s degree. Please link to an actual news source showing that he has an MBA. Hint: the Trump campaign website is not an actual news source.
Omnes Omnibus
@Amaranthine RBG: You are making a claim. Support it. Or fuck off.
Amaranthine RBG
@Mnemosyne:
Hey, how’s the Aladdin casting going? Keep cashing those massive paychecks, though.
Amaranthine RBG
@Omnes Omnibus:
B.S. You’ve got nothing an you know it. You sound like somebody who should be looking for Obama’s birth certificate or ducking black helicopters. Sad!
Omnes Omnibus
@Amaranthine RBG: Coward. Support your claim. You can, right?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amaranthine RBG: Burden of proof, how does it work?
Mnemosyne
@Amaranthine RBG:
Well, I realize that the actor playing Aladdin was merely born in Egypt to Egyptian parents, but I guess you think that doesn’t count because he was raised in Canada.
Omnes Omnibus
@Amaranthine RBG: Dude, you made a claim. I asked for support. Give it or don’t.
carcin
To any further interested commenters, I’d offer this link, and this quote. Perhaps it may calm some queasiness with the premise (or not): :
avclub.com/article/confederate-showrunners-respond-initial-backlash-258382
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
The funniest part is that I’ve already given him the quote from Wikipedia showing that Trump only has a bachelor’s degree, but he’s going to insist on riding that pony into the ground.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amaranthine RBG:
Read it and weep loser:
chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-donald-trump-myths-20160128-story.html
Omnes Omnibus
@carcin: Who are you?
Amaranthine RBG
@Mnemosyne:
Wikipedia?
Ha hahaha
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Anne Laurie: You’re wrong, Hawaii would have been part of the British Empire, Obama Sr. would have still gone to Hawaii. Ever see a Hawaiian flag?
Amaranthine RBG
@carcin:
Shhh… sentence first, trial later. We got a secretary and a legal assistant on da case!
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne:
Oh, but wikipedia isn’t good enough for this dumbass, even though it’s fairly reliable for everyday fact checking. I gave them a Chicago Tribune article.
carcin
@Omnes Omnibus: Not sure what you mean, chap. Long time BJ lurker?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amaranthine RBG:
Don’t forget a pissed off super-sayian flaying your ass intellectually
eemom
@Mnemosyne:
Why not the one in Tokyo?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Amaranthine RBG: Trump doesn’t have a MBA or any advanced degree, he has a BS.
Bupalos
I have to say, the Confederate thing sounded interesting to me at first because I thought “oh good, that would be a great venue to show what an utter nightmare slavery was and would still be, how utterly debased every human being in the country would be.” And then I remembered who we are, and how this would be, and why they really wanted to make it, and just got sad and agree it’s about the worst idea I’ve ever heard.
Mnemosyne
@eemom:
It’s not actually owned by Disney, unlike the other parks. There’s some complicated legal reason having to do with land and corporation ownership laws in Japan that my tiny secretary brain just can’t understand. Maybe the self-described Oxford graduate can explain it for us.
Mnemosyne
@carcin:
Again, it’s not the premise that has me queasy. It’s the showrunners, who have made their name making high-budget torture porn. I don’t trust them.
Mnemosyne
@Bupalos:
In theory, it’s an interesting idea, and I would be much more intrigued if it was a different creative team behind it. I mean, nobody thought that Jordan Peele would be able to pull off a horror movie, and he blew everybody away with Get Out.
But I hear “Game of Thrones” and think “torture porn,” and unfortunately this kind of story would give waaaayyyy too many openings for a torture porn enthusiast to indulge his kink in the name of “education.”
Suzanne
Not comfortable judging art before I’ve seen it.
Not comfortable judging art, and its merits or meanings, based on the identities of its creators.
Not comfortable judging some important topics off limits for artists based on their identities.
There’s no work of art that I’ve ever seen, learned that the artist was different in some way from how I had previously assumed, and had it change my interpretation of the work itself.
The show may suck. The idea is no better or worse than many other ideas for movies or TV shows. While it is certainly evidence of hollywoodsowhite that white dudes often get lots of money to do shows when minority artists do not, I do not think it’s really open-minded to assume that the work will be without merit because its creators are white dudes.
Uncle Cosmo
@Amaranthine RBG:
This “ignorant twat” will think a few rings around an imbecile fuckhead like you.
Presuming this series even gets made, there are 3 eminently predictable reactions: Anything that portrays CSA society as anything short of pure evil will be vilified by progressives & PoC as a whitewash, to the screams of the alt-Reich & stars&bars-sporting knuckledraggers. Anything that portrays it as anything short of idyllic will be vilified by the latter, to the screams of the former.
And anything that manages to “thread the needle” between those two reactions will call up The “All In The Family” Effect. We old farts remember how that 1970s TV “brought us together” when the country was still riven by the antiwar & culture wars of the Sixties. How the whole family could laugh at narrowminded bigot Archie Bunker & his leftie son-in-law “The Meathead”.
Only it wasn’t that way. Bigot parents & hippy kids laughed at the same time but at different things. Whenever Archie said something outrageous we kids (I was in my 20s) would laugh & think, Listen to that asshole! while our parents were laughing & thinking You tell ’em, Arch!
That show didn’t “bring us together”–it drove us farther apart. Which is exactly what I forsee this “Confederacy” mishegoss accomplishing.
Mnemosyne
@Suzanne:
Depends on what you mean by “identities.” I’m pre-judging this based on the track record of the proposed creators, not their skin color.
Let me put it this way: if it was Michael Bay who had announced this, would you be saying that we couldn’t pre-judge what the final product would be like just because of his previous output and track record as an artist?
LesGS
@lamh36: Some years ago, mi esposo and I played “Shadow Run,” a role-playing game set in our time, but where magic had just returned, and latent genes in some folks “turned on,” changing some humans into orcs or elves or trolls or dwarfs, while most remained human. It was a melange of tech and magic.
“Bright” looks like that to me, and we’ll be watching.
AxelFoley
@Amaranthine RBG:
Fuck you.
AxelFoley
@carcin:
And fuck you, too.
columbusqueen
I had to stop watching GoT because the torture porn and exploitative treatment of women finally got to me.
The irony is that the TV show has actually toned the books down a fair amount. Martin seems a nice enough fellow in interviews, but the way he described sex and torture is nasty & hard to take.
jake the antisoshul soshulist
@TenguPhule:
Saul of Tarsus aka Paul the self-appointed Apostle coopted Rabbi Yeshua’s reformist form of Judaism
to institute his own form of authoritarian personality cult.
Suzanne
@Mnemosyne: I have no problem anticipating that future work by shitty artists will suck. I disagree that GoT sucks, though. It certainly can be gratuitous, but I think that, for the most part, the violence in the show is used pretty effectively to convey the brutality of the society and for world-building, and is pretty accurate to the time it’s based on.
I’m less comfortable with the “uh oh white people take on slavery OH HELL NO this idea SUCKS” reaction. It may very well suck, but it’s not a bad idea on its face—at least no worse than a lot of other ideas for successful shows—and I think we should judge it after seeing it, not before.
The social justice crowd very sensibly expects white people and dudes to do their own work on issues of race and sex. Art is one really important way to do that on a societal level. It seems self-defeating to pre-emptively freak out.
Mnemosyne
If anyone comes back to read this thread, there’s an on topic sci-fi book that’s a Kindle Daily Deal today(Friday 7/21) — Octavia Butler’s Kindred.
It’s the story of a post-Civil Rights Black woman who gets magically transported back to her white ancestor’s plantation and is enslaved, but also has to help her ancestor in order to save the future. Butler said she originally tried to write it with a male protagonist, but the post-Civil Rights men she knew would all have gotten themselves killed soon after they arrived. ?
And if you’re local to the Los Angeles area, the Huntington’s exhibition about Butler’s life and work closes soon, so go see it!
Mnemosyne
@Suzanne:
GoT is a very divisive show — the biggest fan I know is my 80-year-old aunt! — and the people who dislike it usually have issues with the racial and sexual politics of the show. I really do think that it’s the WHO in this case that’s causing the kerfuffle, not just the topic. If it was, say, a David Simon show, people would be super excited to see it even though he’s white, because he’s the guy who did “The Wire” and “Treme” with majority Black casts.
carcin
@AxelFoley: Aren’t you a cool dude…
carcin
@Mnemosyne:
I’d disagree, as 95% of the hot takes are attacking the (thin, PR release-described) premise, with a light salting from the “GoT isn’t diverse enough” crowd. I think your focus on the _violence_ in GoT is fairly unique.