Sessions discussed Trump campaign-related matters with Russian ambassador, intelligence intercepts show https://t.co/dNcX3DeY9q
— The Washington Post (@washingtonpost) July 22, 2017
The Washington Post reports:
Russia’s ambassador to Washington told his superiors in Moscow that he discussed campaign-related matters, including policy issues important to Moscow, with Jeff Sessions during the 2016 presidential race, contrary to public assertions by the embattled attorney general, according to current and former U.S. officials.
Ambassador Sergey Kislyak’s accounts of two conversations with Sessions — then a top foreign policy adviser to Republican candidate Donald Trump — were intercepted by U.S. spy agencies, which monitor the communications of senior Russian officials both in the United States and in Russia. Sessions initially failed to disclose his contacts with Kislyak and then said that the meetings were not about the Trump campaign.
One U.S. official said that Sessions — who testified that he has no recollection of an April encounter — has provided “misleading” statements that are “contradicted by other evidence.” A former official said that the intelligence indicates that Sessions and Kislyak had “substantive” discussions on matters including Trump’s positions on Russia-related issues and prospects for U.S.-Russia relations in a Trump administration.
Sessions has said repeatedly that he never discussed campaign-related issues with Russian officials and that it was only in his capacity as a U.S. senator that he met with Kislyak.
Like the original leak that led to Attorney General Sessions recusal from the counterintelligence and criminal investigations into Russian active measure, cyberwar interference in the 2016 elections, the leak reported today is another warning shot. The former was meant to signal to AG Sessions that it would not end well if he messed with, or allowed others to mess with, the ongoing investigations. Today’s is a reminder. But it is also meant as a warning to others as well: “we have the intercepts of Ambassador Kislyak’s communications back to Moscow. We know what he told Putin and Lavrov. And if you interfere in Special Counsel Mueller’s work that information will find its way out.” Hence this from WaPo’s report:
But U.S. officials with regular access to Russian intelligence reports say Kislyak — whose tenure as ambassador to the United States ended recently — has a reputation for accurately relaying details about his interactions with officials in Washington.
Ambassador Kislyak’s tenure at the Russian Embassy in DC is coming to a close, but he remains both the gift that keeps on giving and the man no one from the 2016 campaign can seem to remember. Ambassador Kislyak is Mearn’s man who wasn’t there.
Yesterday, upon the stair, I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today I wish, I wish he’d go away…
When I came home last night at three
The man was waiting there for me
But when I looked around the hall I couldn’t see him there at all!
Go away, go away, don’t you come back any more!
Go away, go away, and please don’t slam the door… (slam!)
Last night I saw upon the stair
A little man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
Oh, how I wish he’d go away…
And right now AG Sessions wishes he’d just go away already. What remains to be seen is whether AG Sessions, or anyone else, has gotten the message.
Cheryl Rofer
I was working on a post of my own on this subject, in response to a request on Anne’s thread, but Adam got his post up first. So here’s the substance of mine.
We knew already that Jefferson Beauregard Sessions had a couple of meetings with Sergey Kislyak that he didn’t bother to tell the Senate about in his confirmation hearing. He has assured us that they were not about the campaign. Tonight we are told that Kislyak reported back to the Kremlin that yes indeedy they were about the campaign, fitting into a developing narrative that the Trump campaign was sharing information with the Russians.
I’ve been saying that the most important thing about some of these stories is the sources. That is particularly the case tonight.
The sources are “current and former US officials.” There seem to be two, but there could be more, and good journalistic practice would suggest that there are more. The Post seems not to have seen the transcripts of Kislyak’s conversations but rather has descriptions of them from the sources. The material is from intelligence intercepts.
Some commentary on Twitter suggests that this revelation has burned one avenue (most likely signals intelligence) of information. But there are reasons to think this is not the case. Kislyak has been recalled to Moscow, so anything specific to him is likely no longer operative. If the messages were sent to the Kremlin from one of the “vacation houses” that the US seized, that channel is gone too. So it’s possible that the sources are from the intelligence community, or someone with connections to the IC, which could be many officials.
Another question is whether this is piling on by the Trump administration to remove or weaken Sessions. I think that Trump’s grousing about Sessions to the New York Times yesterday was just more Trump; he has to blame someone for the Russia investigation, and Sessions is as good as anyone. Further, the leak indicates that the campaign in the person of Sessions was communicating with Kislyak. Since Trump’s stand is that nobody talked to Russia, never, about anything dicey, it seems like a poor idea to release this kind of thing. Seems doubtful that someone else in the administration immediately around Trump would want that out.
So it looks like this is coming, directly or indirectly, from the IC.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: What’s more if this is, as reported, based on US SIGINT of Kislyak’s communications back to the home office, then based on what we know everyone else does the Brits, the Germans, the Estonians, the Latvians, the Finns, etc all have the same intercepts.
jl
Thanks,. I look forward to the Friday TrumpDump news. Funny how beloved popular traditions can get started so quickly. The hints of rumblings on Wednesday, some random weasel floats up in chit chat. I little tease on Thursday. We all wait patiently all Friday! Whee!
But this is a little unsettling. No, not because Sessions is damned knowing liar, and thoroughly corrupt. We’ve known that for years.
I guess it sets the stage for a Sessions departure, and an even worse AG, hard as that is to imagine.
How confident are Adam or Cheryl that this is from US IC, not Trumpsters or Russian connected sources?
Edit: OK, not from Russian connected people, but maybe from Trumpsters? I guess ‘former’ US officials would point to career people?
Cheryl Rofer
Another whole layer to this is that Kislyak may have been giving his bosses a sunnier report of what he learned than was justified. In other words, what he said may not be true.
So many liars.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: The WaPo reporting makes it clear this is from US SIGINT.
Adam L Silverman
And Clapper piles on!
TenguPhule
As lovely as all of this is happening now, it would have been MUCH MORE FUCKING USEFUL LAST FUCKING YEAR.
A fucking member of Congress was fucking compromised AND WE ONLY FIND OUT AFTER HE’S THE AG.
Sorry for the shouting Adam, but our IC do have a lot to answer for if they didn’t tell anyone about this earlier.
ETA: And how long was this going on? Somehow I don’t think this came from Sessions out of the blue. What other things did he sell to Russia?
jl
OK read Cheryl’s comment. I suppose less than 50/50 from Trumpsters.
Epicurus
While I rarely watch CNN, Anderson Cooper has been killing this story for the last hour or so. He’s interviewing one of the WaPo reporters and this looks very, very bad for Sessions, not to mention Trump. The popcorn is almost ready…and Manafort and Don Jr. will testify to Congressional committees next week. Wonder how that might turn out…
Ladyraxterinok
Who are some of the worst possible choices you can think of for AG?? Those people are probably under consideration.
Cheryl Rofer
@jl: It’s hard for me to see why administration-connected sources would leak that Kislyak had reported contacts with the campaign. It undermines Sessions, to be sure, but it also undermines the administration’s line that all contacts with Russians were totally innocuous.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
Cheryl, the whole Trump regime is built on poor ideas.
Trump Jr. I rest my case.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: All part of the maskirovka!
TenguPhule
@Ladyraxterinok: Bill Oreilly, AG.
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: From what I’ve been seeing of tweets from the Aspen Forum, Clapper piled on in a big way. “I’m glad to be former,” he said. Should be video or something written coming out of that, although I didn’t see much new, just said more firmly.
Mike J
From WSJ:
Why didn’t Spicer send a top aide to Office Warehouse or Walmart if he wanted a fridge? Why was his answer to getting a fridge, “take it away from the junior researchers”?
And good for them for telling him to fuck off.
jl
Another bit of interesting bit, also about compromised memebers of Congress: I heard on radio news that Sen Burr (R-NC) flatly asserted as fact that Nunes fabricated the unmaskennennennninnggiinnghazi fake scandal.
Another a thing anyone with sense would strongly suspect, but now confirmed and it’s out there.
Seems like Nunes should completely step away from the House investigation, for reals, if he hasn’t already.
Jeffro
@Cheryl Rofer:
Wait, what? No way!
/snark
Seriously, these days, I default to assuming that EVERYTHING damaging to Trumpov & Co (i.e., any little bit of the truth) is coming from the IC. And good on them for making sure it gets out there. I just want to know, 20-30 years from now, who has been directing the leaks and gradually ramping up the public awareness/private intensity on this whole this – it’s been amazing.
And on another note: not that they will game it out this far, but…what would make any of Trumpov’s advisers, lawyers, or other boot-lickers think that by firing Sessions, firing Mueller, etc is going to stop the investigation? I mean, how much of the good stuff does one have to smoke to think, “we’ll wrap this up in 3-6 months, everything will settle down, we’ll get back to (LOL) governing, and pull out of this death spiral”? Firing Sessions, firing Mueller, all of these are admissions of guilt to enough to shift both the public’s and Congress’ opinion and make the effort to uncover what happened even stronger. Not to mention what’ll continue to come out from the IC, only in stronger doses and larger amounts. It’s nuts.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule:
They did tell people.
They didn’t tell you.
The people they told couldn’t or wouldn’t or at any rate didn’t escalate publicly.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: Fudge stripes. Pecan sandies. They’re favorites in Murmansk!
Cheryl Rofer
@TenguPhule: That is one weakness I recognized in my argument.
TenguPhule
@Mike J:
Seriously fucking petty assholes. All of them.
Suzanne
I seriously expect Trump to start having people killed to avoid testifying any moment now.
Are car bombs too unsubtle?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
They would obviously have been better off telling me instead.
jl
@Cheryl Rofer:
” It undermines Sessions, to be sure, but it also undermines the administration’s line that all contacts with Russians were totally innocuous. ”
But who the hell believes that anymore? Right now, people are just agreeing to go along with BS to avoid things become too awkward politically and constitutionally right now.
dmsilev
@Ladyraxterinok:
Clearly, Donald Trump will appoint himself as AG.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: I’ve got the video link. I’ll post it up tomorrow.
TenguPhule
@Suzanne:
Too technically sophisticated for his bodyguards/thugs.
Random muggings gone wrong are more their style.
Gvg
@Cheryl Rofer: I don’t think Trump is smart enough to plan nor does he have sources that could tell him what the Ambassador reported, however he is butt hurt and blaming Sessions. I could see him using this report to fire Sessions because he wants to. I wonder what Sessions could then tell about Trump without implicating himself further?
Even without a firing, I think Sessions actually has friends in Congress who might not appreciate the way Trump has turned on an early supporter. I am not sure of that.
I have not predicted Trump that well so far. I actually thought he would attack the GOP congress a lot more. He is not a good party man. Not trustworthy by anyone. I still expect him to end up fighting everyone eventually.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Adam L Silverman: Why would IC reveal this? Wouldn’t they want Sessions to remain in office. If he resigns then a new AG would say he has no reason to recuse himself from the investigation and therefore he would relieve Mueller.
TenguPhule
@Suzanne:
Was it only yesterday or the day before that some of the other jackals were asserting that Trump was too much of a coward to order murder done on his behalf?
TenguPhule
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
And kick off a firestorm.
I think that’s the general idea. Sure as hell we’re not getting this crisis solved by the book.
rikyrah
Ok, who dimed out Attorney General White Citizens Council?
I think it’s Team Dolt45.
Since the KKKeebler Elf wouldn’t resign…They are trying to push him out.
Gin & Tonic
@Epicurus: I’ll bet my house that Manafort takes the 5th on anything remotely interesting. He doesn’t give anything away for free.
TenguPhule
@Gvg:
Let me stop you right there.
Baud
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: The recusal had nothing to do with Mueller. Mueller was appointed because Rosenstein was implicated in the Comey firing.
Yarrow
Traitor. Traitor, traitor, traitor, traitor. TRAITOR.
In the common usage of the word, just to be clear.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@TenguPhule:
No, that’s Hillary’s MO, at least that’s what I’ve been told.
WaterGirl
So do we think all these leaks are kind of a game of cat-and-mouse by the intelligence community to help send Trump over the edge? Or are they just making sure, leak by leak, that our cowardly politicians can’t hide from this problem forever?
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
Reason enough to bomb them.
Cheryl Rofer
It’s not clear to me that the Trumpies think this far ahead, but removing Sessions makes Rod Rosenstein the acting AG. Rosenstein seems to have been playing both sides. He appointed Mueller. It may be that in Trump’s dim brain that if Rosenstein appointed him, he could remove him. It’s getting harder to recruit people into lawyering up and potentially going to jail, so there may be no AG candidates, although Anthony Scaramucci’s appointment today shows that power is an aphrodisiac for some. Plus would the Senate approve a candidate?
TenguPhule
@Gin & Tonic:
How nice a house are we talking about here?
jl
@Baud: It’s pointless to try to figure out why Trump says what he does. Trump can’t parse reasons why Sessions had to recuse himself, and has no interest.
Edit: Trump wanted to trash talk Sessions, and that idea was first thing to come to Trump’s sad excuse for a mind.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
Recess Appointment in August.
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
Obama hired some world class trolls ; )
Just sayin
Major Major Major Major
@?BillinGlendaleCA: lol.
Adam L Silverman
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: This is a second warning shot. They don’t want him gone. They want him and others both scared and to back off.
Moreover, given how the Senate is functioning, the legislative and confirmations calendars, and the nominations already in the pipeline, it will take months to get a new AG confirmed.
Kay
So this is a fight between Sessions and Trump? Wow. Trump is really desperate to stop that investigation.
I can’t even imagine what’s in the Trump Family business records. I mean, even if it’s a bad business- worth less than they claim, loaded up with huge debt coming due, hooked up with sleazy characters (which it probably is) it would have to be worse than that to go so nuts. WTF is IN there that they are so desperate to hide?
TenguPhule
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Well played, sir.
Adam L Silverman
@Baud: And because of the President’s statements to Lester Holt in his interview with Holt.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
Trump is broke, in debt and reliant on Russian loans to finance his lifestyle.
Why else wouldn’t he want his taxes revealed?
Adam L Silverman
@hovercraft: I’ve never met LTG (ret) Clapper. One of the people that trained and mentored me knew him well and they had a long, professional feud. I don’t know the roots of it. But my understanding is that Clapper doesn’t take prisoners.
Luthe
@?BillinGlendaleCA: No, Hillary sets up fake “suicides.” Remember Vince Foster?
Adam L Silverman
Ooopsie!
jl
@TenguPhule: I wouldn’t have seriously suggested this a few months ago, but maybe down payments from Russian oligarchs and mobsters close to Vlad. Russian cash money for services to be rendered at a date TBD.
Edit: maybe I am talking about ‘earnest money’? Whatever it is called.
TS
So listening to Rachel – next week the Senate will be investigating the democrats input to the report on Trump. They’ve cancelled the Manafort/Trump hearing
This congress will do ANYTHING to help trump stay in power.
WTF
Geoduck
@Ladyraxterinok: One not-terribly-trustworthy source claimed that Ted Cruz was being considered. Probably not true, but if it was, the rest of the Senate might actually go along with it, to be rid of him.
kilo50
If Hair Fuhrer is going to fire Mueller he better be getting his act in gear. Not much time left until it is apparent to every Republican outside the South who hopes to keep their phony baloney jobs the AG is blatantly compromised. Or they can maintain their ostrich like crouch and hope it all goes away with an even worse new AG.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Luthe: That was 25 years ago, she’s moved on. Anyway personally blowing a guy’s brains out is messy.
hovercraft
@Mike J:
It tastes better if it’s taken off of someone else’s plate. Duh!
TenguPhule
@Geoduck:
ETA: Yeah, that would suck.
Felonius Monk
@Epicurus:
No they won’t. Those hearings have been cancelled. Instead the Judiciary Com. has subpoenaed the funders of the Steele Dossier. Grassley wants to prove the Dems are behind all this stuff.
jl
@hovercraft: Trump has germophobia, so probably a quirk among his flunkies.
Baud
@Felonius Monk: The Dems will eat Grassley’s lunch.
Luthe
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
That’s what the help is for.
jl
@TenguPhule: First nominee to need a security detail at his Senate confirmation hearing?
Adam L Silverman
@TS: They cancelled Manafort and Jr because Manafort and Jr hadn’t confirmed they were going to testify. Grassley is threatening subpoenas.
TenguPhule
@kilo50:
Talk about unwarranted optimism.
Adam L Silverman
This is not going to end well:
Jeffro
Could I please get a little mod help retrieving my comment? I’m pretty sure it didn’t have any bad words in it or anything…
Gvg
@TenguPhule: in the past, when they told people, things got done, at least as far as we the ordinary know. And when they leaked, it was prosecuted, they didn’t get our sympathy, and probably sources died. Basically up until now, history and experience said keep secrets. Now, things have changed.
Really I never pictured a world where we demanded and needed our own spies to leak all over the place, for most of the country to be mad they hadn’t already fixed this mess. It’s all flipped on its head from the way it was my whole life before. Do you realize it’s kind of expecting a good guy praetorian guard situation? This is not a secure set up and it’s really new and odd. What are the new rules? How can we get back to reliable elections?
Because of the nukes and the nut President I have actually wondered if someone would shoot him if he wanted to use them for a tantrum? Isn’t that crazy? It used to be.
schrodingers_cat
@Ladyraxterinok: Jared Kushner.
kilo50
@Suzanne: Not if you blame the Mooslims for it. Terror alert Red. He is your Commander in Chief. Don’t talk back. Obey!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Geoduck: The only jobs Ted would take over being the least liked Senator is the Presidency or Associate Justice on the Supreme Court(I’m sure he’d take the Chief Justice job too).
Tim C.
I’m getting more and more the sense that kinves are out in the “deep state.” But by fear is it that it doesn’t matter. The same thing that makes a person a Republican at this point also make them a moral coward and complete sociopath. I’m not talking about the GOP politicians, it’s the 62 million fascists I fear the most.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman:
The what now?
Jeffro
@Adam L Silverman: Once again, if Obama did it, Trumpov must overturn it…hey GOP, what do you think? Had enough yet?
TenguPhule
@Felonius Monk:
The one originally commissioned by the Republicans?
TenguPhule
@Baud:
The gang that couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with automatic weapons while inside of it.
jl
@Baud:
” The Dems will eat Grassley’s lunch. ”
Unless hungry Trumpster administration aides steal it first.
How long is the GOP going to cling onto this loser Trump? i guess until Trump’s polling ratings are lower than GOP? That might take a while.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: Right, there is no “A-Team” in this White House.
ETA: See that Baud got there first.
Kay Eye
@Ladyraxterinok: What, is there someone worse than Sessions? Oh, wait. Gov. Abbott or Lt. Gov. Patrick. Texas has an almost limitless supply.
germy
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
FSM preserve us, this is the one he spent FIFTY FIVE MINUTES OUT OF AN HOUR MEETING with his national security advisers railing against.
Yarrow
@Suzanne:
I don’t know if this was Trump, but I’ve been wanting to find a good place to post this:
The banister gave way. Uh huh.
What was his most recent story?
Here is that article. Excerpt:
So…did someone want to silence a reporter? Or just a coincidence?
Adam L Silverman
@Jeffro: It is free.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike J:
Because fuck you, that’s why!
Adam L Silverman
@Baud: Gorka, Bannon, Anton, Cohen-Watnick. Really more of a J team.
kilo50
@TenguPhule: @TenguPhule: I don’t know. I can see it getting rancid enough for a few to peel away. That small crack in the dam could lead to a deluge. Even more so given a moribund economy, natural disaster a la Katrina……
TenguPhule
@Omnes Omnibus:
The 2018 Democratic Slogan.
You have to admit, its catchy and better then the other suggestions.
Wapiti
@Kay:
Well, assuming Trump is crooked and a fool… he didn’t share his real financials with his Russian loan sharks. If Mueller’s evidence shows that Trump was grifting the Russians…
Yarrow
@Kay:
Money laundering Russian mob money.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Is it just me or does Kushner look like a extra in American Psycho? Or maybe Wolf of Wall Street?
TenguPhule
@Kay Eye:
What do you mean almost?
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: Mystery man Rex Tillerson is once again at the center of the Iran thing. Trump says he couldn’t give a reason to support the Iran deal, which is all too credible. OTOH, someone at Aspen today was saying that Trump’s daily briefings are difficult because it’s hard to keep Trump on track. So Tillerson might have made a case and Trump missed it.
The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, a hard-right group, have been pressing hard to get out of the JCPOA. David Albright of ISIS has also been claiming that Iran is cheating. They will probably be glad to help out the White House group.
lamh36
@jl: 2020.
Honestly, I don’t think anything but the actual “pee tape” would make the GOP drop Cheeto, and to be fair, I even doubt they’d drop him then.
I actually can’t even imagine the defense of a “pee tape”…smh
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: He has a distinctive facial affect.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
Is that a typo or just an unfortunate naming?
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman: There’s a White House A-Team? Seems like they start with the C-Team and go down from there.
Kristine
@Epicurus:
Currently watching Rachel. According to her, Grassley has cancelled Manafort and Jr’s public testimony and has instead issued a subpoena to the head of the company that commissioned the T***p dossier.
TenguPhule
@lamh36:
“Its not illegal in Russia.”
Gravenstone
@Epicurus: Manafort and Trump Jr.will not be testifying next week. Instead Grassley is going to start laying the defense for Trump by attacking the organization that compiled the dossier featuring piss hookers. Seditious pricks, top to bottom.
TenguPhule
@Yarrow:
You never watched the A-Team before? Classic campy fun.
Major Major Major Major
@lamh36: they’d drop him as soon as he became more trouble to keep than to drop.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@lamh36:
“At least they were female hookers…”
You asked.
jl
@TenguPhule: Institute for Science and International Security
Edit: founded and named long before the bad ISIS, of course.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: If, by distinctive, you mean creepy, I agree.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Yarrow: No, they start with the “P-Team”.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: I was one of FDD’s initial recruits for a post-doctoral fellowship back when they were first starting up. I turned them down once I figured out what it was. I was very polite about it, explaining that I had serious scheduling conflicts at my primary position that precluded me from going on the fact finding trip to Israel and the other events they had scheduled for the next 6 to 12 months. They offered three time to reschedule everything if I’d say yes.
Yarrow
@kilo50:
It is hurricane season and August is right around the corner. That’s when things begin to pick up.
Omnes Omnibus
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Any hard evidence of that?
TenguPhule
@jl: Ah, unfortunate naming it is.
japa21
@lamh36: That was before he became President or started running for President. He is a changed man since he accepted Christ as his savior and all prior sins are now forgiven.
Gvg
@TenguPhule: the reason I said Sessions has friends in Congress is this time he got confirmed whereas back in Reagans time his fellow Congressmen wouldn’t for something, I can’t remember the details now. 2 points being back then they trout he was too racist and then he wasn’t that liked. Maybe he learned from that sort of. Anyway he got confirmed. I haven’t heard he is hated like Cruz or even Rubio, so I think he is more connected now. Pity that.
I could be wrong, it’s not like I am a real expert. If you know different, explain. I’d like to know and I would prefer he was friendless and alone.
smintheus
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: As I recall, Mueller’s appointment cannot be terminated except for cause.
Kay
@TenguPhule:
I don’t think that being revealed would scare him this much. It’s Trump. He’d lie about the assets and debt – he’s always done that, this would be no different- and they’d all fan out and say reliance on Russia for loans is a good thing.
I think it has to be worse than that. It can’t just be bad- my assumption is it’s bad or we would have seen the taxes long ago- it has to be worse than “bad”- illegal or will lead to a investigation into something illegal in the business.
Because Trump is right in a way- he says the Trump business records aren’t connected to the Trump campaign- that’s his story. Okay. Even if I give him that then why won’t he reveal them? If they’re completely unrelated to collusion or the campaign then why not reveal them? His defense doesn’t make any sense.
Cheryl Rofer
@TenguPhule: Institute for Science and International Security. They had the acronym first, but they never got to be as well known as the other guys.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Omnes Omnibus: Nope.
Tim C.
@Yarrow: That’s my most likely scenario too.
Yarrow
@TenguPhule: Oh, sure. But not in this White House.
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: McMaster, Powell, Hill.
kilo50
@Adam L Silverman: Working toward teh Fuhrer. That is some scary policy. I guess becuz it has Obama’s name attached it must be undone. Again it is isolating ourselves, but a win for Trump if no new “renegotiation” and if he does manage to get something signed his base is just slightly less pleased. I don’t see him leaving office even if his numbers drop to 27%.
TenguPhule
@Gvg:
Because the Republicans would have confirmed a Nazi Teddybear if it had an R labeled on it.
I dispute your notion that he actually has any friends in Congress as nobody in his confirmation hearings indicated anything of the sort beyond the normal “old boys club” routine. Certainly nothing else has come along to disprove this theory yet.
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: The FDD guys definitely had their own pov when we were working on the JCPOA, but what I’ve seen of them lately is positively nuts.
jl
@TenguPhule: I just checked ‘How many of me’. There are 20 people in the US with the first name Donald and the last name Trump. History can come at you randomly pretty damn fast.
Iowa Old Lady
It would make me very happy to see the Marshals dragging Kushner into congress to testify.
Yarrow
@Kay: Because he laundered Russian mob money through his ca$inos and hotels for years. If it becomes public either the US will toss him and his family in jail or the Russian mob will make them pay in very unpleasant ways. Or both.
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
He has an A-Team?
PPCLI
For everyone who is asking “why would Trump do something like this?” Track down on the web the economist Cipolla’s classic “The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity” and note the distinction between a bandit and a stupid person.
And really, if you haven’t read that classic essay, essay I urge you to do so in any event quite independent of the insight it gives into Trump and the Trumpkins.
Major Major Major Major
@Kay:
Why, it’s almost as though he has something to hide!
Bill Arnold
Since it’s an open thread, completely off topic, found this a good if long read, and the strongest argument against campus speech codes I’ve seen anywhere:
The Neurodiversity Case for Free Speech
Plenty of interesting links from the piece as well. As a definitely-not-neurotypical (Probably not Asperger’s though: can do empathy/mind sync very well, to telepathic levels, but am often blindsided by reactions otherwise, ’cause you’re all so weird. :-), it was interesting to read the stories.
frosty
@hovercraft: The mob phrase I read was “Food always tastes better on a muldoon*”
* stolen credit card
TenguPhule
@Kay:
It would render his entire self built world of belief a lie to the world. He’s invested his entire life into feeding that lie.
And that’s not even getting into all the bad people who he owes money to and what they’d do to him to collect.
I suspect that Donnie has discovered in the past he has a very low tolerance for pain.
Kay
@TenguPhule:
I mean the sort of elephant in the room is money laundering, right? That would be the most likely unlawful thing in those records. No one would ever say it at this point because it’s an accusation and they’d be crazy to start flinging those around, but it has to be something. And all “laundering” means is the money going thru the business came from something illegal. There’s a reason to launder money. If they were legit receipts it’s just accounting.
I guess I don’t buy the other theory- that he’s hiding a failing or teetering business- they wouldn’t care about that. They’d just lie and say it’s “terrific” no matter what the records show.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: I’ve known Walid Phares for years from when he was a professor at Florida Atlantic University. Of course, now, he’s been credibly accused of being one of the planners of the Sabra and Shatilla massacres. My understanding from other mutual friends/acquaintances is that as long as FDD and the other deep pockets that fund/around FDD keep paying him lots of money, he’ll say anything. I had to do an assessment of one of their other folks who was brought in to do some Army training. Guy was terrible. But they paid him to do a PhD in IR and now he’s important.
Lizzy L
I’ve got no opinion about who leaked the Sessions story, but it would not surprise me at all if this story turns out to be the last straw. Sessions has become a liability. As for who will replace him — I am sure a suitable monster can be found, but it will take a while, and Rosenstein is not a loyalist as Trump defines it, and I think there are limits to how he will allow himself to be used. He is not going to fire Mueller.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
I suspect he also dipped his finger in the till.
Stealing from the Russian mob is the kind of stupidity I’d expect from Trump.
And he still doesn’t have enough money to break even. Which means no chance of ever repaying them.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: Child prostitution ring like in the Eastern Promises.?
jl
@TenguPhule: I now think quite possible down payment money from Russia.for services to be rendered.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
/extremely Russian mobster/oligarch/F.O.VLad voice/
Let him wet beak in water we spill. We keep receipts, let Americans throw him in prison when we don’t need him no more
kilo50
@TenguPhule: I have always told myself it is the money issue and its tie in to the Russians which makes Trump act so irrationally, but my intuitive side is it must be so much more sexual-psychotic than mere money even if his ego is so heavily measured by it. That his sense of self worth was so dependent on it. Now I am more inclined to something that would make the Evangelicals, his strongest support since they can rationalize away anything except sexual sleaze and hard evidence of it, draw back in revulsion.
Gravenstone
@TenguPhule: Maybe he works with Archer.
Captain C
@Ladyraxterinok: Alex Jones
NMgal
@Wapiti:
QFT. This rings true to me, anyhow. Der Trumpenfurer isn’t terribly afraid of Americans, but he *is* afraid of his Russian “friends.”
PPCLI
@Geoduck: that would be tricky, I imagine -giving up a confirmation vote (Cruz’s) especially with McCain sick, would really not leave much room for error.
Also, Cruz, like Sal Tessio, is smart, and leaping onto the decks of this burning ship isn’t a smart move. He will stick with Barzzini.
And it is hard to imagine Trump and the Trumpkins trusting him enough to hand him a sharpened axe. Not only was he a dogged opponent, but Trump insulted his wife, and suggested his father was involved with the Kennedy assassination. Among other things.
SWMBO
@Kay: Human trafficking? He wants to bring in more foreign workers. And not just Melania replacements it seems. That would be worse.
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
I just don’t think it makes any sense for this family to hide what they say are assets. They brag about these businesses constantly. They never shut up about how successful they are. All of a sudden they become intensely private people who are worried about the specific nature of their (allegedly) vast wealth being revealed?
It’s this family. If those records were at all favorable or brag-worthy they would have bound them in a coffee table book and sold it at the Mar A Lago gift shop. All of a sudden Donald Trump doesn’t want anyone revealing his family business? To the extent that he threatens law enforcement in the NYTimes and leaks things about his own AG?
clay
This may be a dumb question, but why would Trump leak stuff to get Sessions to resign when he could just demand his resignation or fire him outright?
PPCLI
@Felonius Monk: The Steele dossier was originally commissioned by Jeb Bush. And it was McCain who finally let the cat out of the bag.
Gin & Tonic
@clay: Fewer fingerprints.
Captain C
@Kay: Just speculation, but maybe serious money laundering with the Russian mob and/or intelligence services. Major fraud or other business malfeasance. Maybe other involvement in Russian intelligence ops (after all, those apartments may well work nicely as safehouses).
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Kay: That’s because the business success is a lie, it’s the emperor with no clothes.
clay
@Gin & Tonic: That doesn’t make sense. By definition, more people would be involved in the ‘Trump’s team leaks classified intel to reporters to get Sessions to resign’ scenario than the ‘Trump asks Sessions to resign one-on-one’ scenario.
Captain C
@lamh36: A pee tape is laughable, but some things may be beyond the pale (at least in public) for all but his staunchest congressional supporters, and some of those things overlap with his reasonably suspected proclivities.
Sab
@Kay: My guess is that their books are fucked up beyond belief and beyond auditing. There is nothing tidy or organized or professionally competent about the Trump’s lives.
WaterGirl
@Captain C: I think his proclivity for underage girls is something he would want to hide.
Adria McDowell (formerly LurkerExtraordinaire)
If Dolt 45 fires Sessions, don’t be surprised to hear the words “Attorney General Rudy Giuliani.”
Adam L Silverman
Cannot be unseen!
kilo50
@Captain C: I agree completely. There has to be more to Trump’s fervent denials, ( No puppet, No puppet, You’re the puppet ), than just being beholden to the Russians for finance. It has to be something he is deeply embarrassed by and that can’t be petty misdemeanors like stealing or money laundering becuz those things are just doing business. 80% of Evangelicals voted for him. Skim off half of that and his support implodes. His political strength evaporates and the old line Republicans can ditch him. It has to be something so revolting that the Evangelicals will swear they never supported him. They will say it three times at least.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Stop doing this.
J R in WV
@Cheryl Rofer:
Guys, some of us aren’t in your line of work. Who is “FDD” please? Helps understand if we know what the intitials stand for. Like ISIS has multiple meanings…
jl
@Adam L Silverman: I thought Ellie May was the young chic. That’s granma.
Edit: and also granma slander!
jl
@J R in WV: Foundation for Defense of Democracy. A rightwing nutcase foreign policy thunkidrunk (IMHO).
I vaguely remember these outfits from when I was a stats grunt in the biz.
WaterGirl
@J R in WV: I had the same problem and had to follow the replies back to comment #95 in order to find this: Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.
I do wish people wouldn’t use so many acronyms here without adding the explanation.
divF
@Omnes Omnibus: At least it’s not clowns.
PPCLI
@jl: that’s the point-Granny wants to talk about Jed, Jethro, and Ellie May.
kilo50
@clay: The out of the closet fascists would howl in anger not to mention all the good ‘ol boys in the rural wasteland screaming in pain that the coloreds are going back to getting Cadillacs and steaks. Overturning the Civil Rights Acts is personified in the figure of AG Beauregard Sessions.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@J R in WV:
Foundation for Defense of Democracies
jl
@WaterGirl: In that biz, acronyms are high class. Show you;’re in the know. Always use acronyms.
jl
@PPCLI: Oh, I get it now. I can be slow. And also sadly horndog. I saw ‘Ellie May’ and my mind fixated. Sad!
WaterGirl
@jl: Yeah, but when you really know your stuff, like these guys do, you don’t need to use acronyms to impress people.
kilo50
@Adam L Silverman: Hey Granny was cool. She was onto Mr. Drysdale’s shit way before the others and was into herbs like sassafras tea. Way before her time and never got the credit for it.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: The answer was that granny (both left and right in the picture) would be talking about Jed, Jethro, and Ellie May.
Omnes Omnibus
@divF: Don’t you start.
Adam L Silverman
@J R in WV: Foundation for the Defense of Democracy. Run by Cliff May. Funded out of the same orbit as Frank Gaffney’s smaller think tank, as well as other Islamophobia outlets.
Ruckus
@Kay:
Does anything he does or says? I didn’t think so. But that’s not why I think he’s totally compromised. I think that because he’s lied for decades about money, his having anywhere near the amount he claims and how he made it. One bank will loan him money and that bank has been on the burner for a long time as being a Russian money laundering institution. He lies about the crap he used to sell, about the crap his family sells, his “holdings,” he’s lied about every part of his life. He’s a thin skinned con man and it shows. The only thing he’s ever gotten right is his timing to run for president.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman:
Thanks a bunch Silverman.
Lizzy L
@Adria McDowell (formerly LurkerExtraordinaire): That might be too much for the Senate. I’m not saying it would be — just raising the possibility.
Bill Arnold
Probably somebody already linked it, but jaw dropped at this piece
These Americans Hated the Health Law. Until the Idea of Repeal Sank In.
Is Patrick Murphy of Doylestown, PA really that not-self-aware?
Shalimar
@Cheryl Rofer: Most of Trump’s twitter feed consists of rants that step on his own administration’s carefully crafted bullshit. He does not seem like the person to refrain from slandering someone just because it makes him look like an idiot too.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
and an artisan home craft distiller (her rheumatism medicine) and folk musician
tom
@Suzanne: Polonium
jl
@Adam L Silverman: I was already informed, don’t rub it in.
@WaterGirl: “Yeah, but when you really know your stuff, like these guys do, you don’t need to use acronyms to impress people. ‘
But after a while, it becomes second nature. It just seems barbaric not to use the acronym. Savage and uncouth. Just very very wrong, somehow. Depraved.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@jl:
…and this is why jl is jl.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
You should have heard him on Bush cutting taxes while putting two wars not the national credit card
Ruckus
@clay:
Are you saying that whatever drumpf does has to make sense?
Cause you realize that is way, way, way out on the fringes of reality. Like in the center of the sun out there fringes.
jl
@?BillinGlendaleCA: i was going to use my real name for the handel, jg for Jiminy Glick, but fat fingers.
kilo50
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yasss, forgot about the rheumatism elixirs. Oh to be joyfull.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus:
There lies madness.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: You still have keys here. Why don’t you post any of your observations on the fucking front page? You really frustrate me with this. You show up in comments and say things that would be good front page posts. You just seem to refuse to do it. How can you complain about what anyone else does when you decline to use the tools that you have at hand? Sorry that I seem harsh, but I don’t have front page keys and you do.
Bill Arnold
@Adam L Silverman:
Also (perhaps?) Five Eyes, so etc includes Canada, New Zealand, Australia, yes (or not)?
Ruckus
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Which is why I HAD to ask.
kilo50
@Bill ArnoldIt seems economic anxiety could be masking itself as dementia or dumbassedness. Or maybe the subject has a problem with color differentiation.
BBA
@Ruckus: He can’t even think half a step ahead, but what he does usually makes sense in the moment.
Leaking this as a ploy to give himself room to fire Sessions? That’s too clever for him. Taking advantage of someone else’s leak to fire Sessions, that’s right up his alley.
Adam L Silverman
@Bill Arnold: The Brits are part of Five Eyes. So potentially yes.
Bill Arnold
@Bill Arnold:
That is, the Post piece does not explicitly say (at least on a skim) that US intercepts were involved, though that’s the way to bet for sure.
randy khan
@TenguPhule:
This jackal said Trump wouldn’t do it himself, but that he might make it clear how great it would be if someone wasn’t around anymore. I don’t recall if I took a position on whether he’d actually direct someone to do it.
frosty
@Omnes Omnibus: @Omnes Omnibus: Sorry, but I agree Kay. You’ve got such good insight into voter intimidation, for example. If you can’t because if job issues ir something else, well ok. In any case I really look forward to your comments.
grandpa john
@Cheryl Rofer:
And that is the question isn’t it, how long would it take to get a new AG appointed, and approved by the senate and the investigation would continue along digging out new facts
randy khan
@Adam L Silverman:
So when Trump goes to his “A” team, who exactly is on it besides Kushner?
Cheryl Rofer
@J R in WV: FDD is the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. I wrote it out once, but you are right – all those initials can get confusing. But it’s easy to forget. So keep reminding us.
Omnes Omnibus
@frosty: Huh?
catclub
@Kay:
Won’t it be amusing when Trump is brought down due to an illegal land deal in Arkansas.
frosty
@Omnes Omnibus: I agree with your comment. The “sorry” was directed to Kay if she just doesn’t want to. Clumsy all around. Sorry ’bout that chief.
Omnes Omnibus
@randy khan: Kay can talk about things because she knows them. She could front page them. She chooses not to.
Shalimar
As to the substance, turning on Sessions does not seem to be a smart decision but Trump’s NY Times interview makes it clear that is what is happening. If Sessions talked with Kisylak it is because Donald Trump told him to. There is no reason for Sessions to remain loyal if his dream job is taken away from him, and he potentially knows a lot about the conspiracy.
Ruckus
@BBA:
Makes sense to fucking who?
Nothing drumpf does or says makes any sense at any time. Trying to find some sense in it is a waste of time. Thinking you’ve found some is a fools game.
Gelfling 545
@TenguPhule: Of course he is. It would have to be more like “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?”.
sukabi
@Mike J: oh for fucks sake, cheap bastard couldn’t send an aid to the local Sears or Costco with $150.00 to buy a mini fridge?
What an asshole.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: This upsets me. If you give a fuck enough to comment and have keys…. Why don’t you post about it ?
Adam L Silverman
@randy khan: From the article:
Tom Levenson
@Adam L Silverman: That would be Victoria Coates, art historian, weighing in on Iran and the threat of nuclear holocaust.
sukabi
@Adam L Silverman: sooooo, at what point do they stop giving lying assholes “do overs”?
Villago Delenda Est
@sukabi: This is exactly how one sets oneself up to be ratted out by pissed off subordinates.
Adam L Silverman
@Tom Levenson: Pretty much. All of these folks are Flynnstones – holdovers put on the NSC by Flynn, plus Bannon and Gorka. How Gorka can work on this without a clearance is beyond me.
Adam L Silverman
@sukabi: Don’t look at me. If I’d messed up my SF 86 as badly as is the case here, including the financial information portions, I’d never work again.
Frankensteinbeck
@TenguPhule:
I said it, and I feel thoroughly vindicated. Trump is such a chickenshit, he had to bad talk Sessions behind Sessions’s back in the hope that when word got back, Sessions would quit.
I would not be surprised if Sessions completely ignores him, knowing that Trump is too much of a coward to fire him, and Sessions can do whatever he wants. I’m not sure if this part is true, but it’s plausible.
Trump is definitely not ordering anyone killed, and when he drops ‘Wouldn’t it be great’ hints, nobody is going to take him up on them. Who would stick their neck out for Trump like that? And it’s sticking their neck out FAR. There’s no guys in black with sniper rifles standing around going ‘Who would you like me to take out?’ Even with Executive Branch resources, they couldn’t do it without a significant trail and people all along the line going ‘I won’t do it, and I will tell everyone you tried.’
Chet Murthy
@Major Major Major Major: To add a little more to what M4 said: yeah, the IC folks could have decided to breach their oaths and leak it all to the public back then. But y’know, rules are rules, and if we’re going to have the IC all up in all our business, we might want them to understand chain of command, and rules, and not violating either. So don’t blame the IC. -Do- blame our tribunes. Which brings us back to “Obama shoulda gone public”. And maybe that might have helped. I doubt it, myself, b/c we all knew, and yet the mouth-breathers voted for him anyway.
It’s like Holocaust-denial amongst some Arabs: they know the Holocaust happened, but by denying it, they’re striking a political blow against Israel. It’s not about the Holocaust: it’s about opposing Israel. Similarly, I think the denial of Russian hacking and Trumpovich’s collusion is just their way of saying “fuck you liberals”. That’s all it is.
westyny
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s not just you. I commented on this over at GOS. But . . . yeah.
Chet Murthy
@Suzanne: There’s a part of me that is -praying- for that to start. I know that Putin is too smart for that: he knows that the -disarray- alone is worth the investment, even if he doesn’t get sanctions dropped. But [edit: at some level] I -so- wish Putin would start killing off the fuckers in-the-know. Man, that’d clarify things quickly. Get those Rs soilin’ their Union Suits in a hurry!
sigaba
14 Words: “I lied to America and sold my children’s birthright for a red baseball cap.”
Jeffro
@Chet Murthy: Cannot stress enough that from Obama on down, no one thought that Trumpov would win…(and thus, we would all be spared having to fight these battles, turn over these rocks, and get comfortable with the IC leaking all over the place). It’s a flaw with multiple points that need fixing.
NotMax
@Frankensteinbeck
While I mostly agree with you on this, one does also have to be mindful that he keeps his private “bodyguard*” and “security” on the premises.
*Guy who physically delivered the axe for Comey to the agency, IIRC.
danielx
Whole business with Sessions has likely has a secondary effect: reinforcement (particularly for Republican senators), if such was needed, of the fact that Trump will throw anybody over the side, including his AG and one of his strongest supporters. If it suits whatever purpose he has in mind for ten minutes after a cable broadcast he will get rid of anybody outside his family, and I wouldn’t bet my future on any assurances from pa-in-law if I was Kushner.
Loyalty is strictly one way for the head of House Trump.
Frankensteinbeck
@NotMax:
Even asshole macho mercenary gun-crazy security guards are not assassins, and know it.
Doug R
@Tim C.: Down to 36%, last I heard. Even Rasmussen only has him at 42%. His supporters are slowly sliding back into the bushes.
Frankensteinbeck
@danielx:
That’s a good point. Fits into the ‘Trump having someone killed’ topic, too. No one is going to stick their neck out for Trump anymore. They know that Trump will not protect them if they get into trouble doing Trump’s dirty work.
NotMax
@Frankensteinbeck
Never said they necessarily were. But the pool in which they swim is not unpolluted.
Strictly hypothetical: Plausible deniability requires a “The boss wants this taken care of, and I happen to know someone who knows someone who can arrange things” several degrees of separation scenario
mai naem mobile
@Doug R: pretty sure Sean Spicer I’d hiding in the bushes. Probably Reince too.
Feebog
If the senate is in recess next month there is nothing to prevent DOLT45 from firing Sessions and appointing a new AG. He could do it the same day.
GregB
Many media reports have said Lavrov is experienced and charming.
He may be experienced, but charming? To me he seems a prickly, lying, snide and bullying asshole.
Lizzy L
@Feebog: Excellent point. He’d do it, too. Wow, that could really piss the Senate off.
mai naem mobile
It’s money laundering. That’s all Dolt45 is scared about. I don’t think the success or lack of business success is that big a deal. The money laundering can land all of them in prison,not to mention the fines and other penalties. It may even leave him with only the annual $6M from daddy’s trust. Also, it appears the whole family is involved (except maybe Tiffany but she doesn’t count) so they can’t transfer assets to one clean person. Anybody else notice nobody ever talks about Ivana the first wife. I don’t actively follow any of the family.on twitter but I’ve never seen a pic of Ivanka’s kids with her mom. You would think there would be occasional pictures – birthdays,births etc.
Mnemosyne
@Doug R:
Also those times when Homer breaks something and he walks away whistling, pretending it wasn’t him.
@GregB:
Lavrov strikes me as a “kiss up, kick down” kind of guy. He’ll be nice and charismatic to the press while mistreating waiters (probably).
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
If this had been you, you’d be behind bars by now.
Cheryl Rofer
@GregB: I suspect Lavrov can be quite charming in person. But he does love to troll the US, and I will believe that’s what the “additional” meetings are until I see them confirmed by someone else.
And the bullying etc: that’s necessary in his job too.
Cheryl Rofer
Huh. Emptywheel says that the Post had this information since Sessions’s testimony and asks why they chose to publish it now. Good question.
Colleeniem
@PPCLI: I learn about the best stuff here.