So, Chuck Schumer wrote a NYT op-ed that’s drawing a lot of fire: “A Better Deal for American Workers.” Here are a few excerpts:
Americans are clamoring for bold changes to our politics and our economy. They feel, rightfully, that both systems are rigged against them, and they made that clear in last year’s election. American families deserve a better deal so that this country works for everyone again, not just the elites and special interests. Today, Democrats will start presenting that better deal to the American people…
And for far too long, government has gone along, tilting the economic playing field in favor of the wealthy and powerful while putting new burdens on the backs of hard-working Americans.
Democrats have too often hesitated from taking on those misguided policies directly and unflinchingly — so much so that many Americans don’t know what we stand for. Not after today. Democrats will show the country that we’re the party on the side of working people — and that we stand for three simple things.
First, we’re going to increase people’s pay. Second, we’re going to reduce their everyday expenses. And third, we’re going to provide workers with the tools they need for the 21st-century economy.
Americans from every corner of this country know that the economy isn’t working for them the way that it should, and they wonder if it ever will again. One party says the answer is that special interests should continue to write the rules and that government ought to make things easier for an already-favored few.
Democrats will offer a better deal.
The reactions I’ve seen fall into two groups: Pissed off Democrats who say Schumer validates Trump talking points and unfairly maligns his own party and, implicitly, Hillary Clinton, by claiming that the Dems didn’t put forth a progressive platform in 2016. I think there’s some truth to that. But there’s also some truth to the notion that certain Democrats seem captured by special interests themselves; until recently, I would have put Schumer into that category.
Left of center Democrats and non-affiliateds are adding to the jeers, criticizing Schumer for proposing yet another business tax cut-funded jobs training band-aid instead of more directly addressing wealth inequality by calling for massive tax hikes on the rich. I think there’s some truth in that too.
I’m trying not to read too much into this op-ed. It’s not necessarily a harbinger of Democratic Party strategy going forward. But I will note that it fails to mention Trump, and only mentions Republicans once. I think that’s a mistake. What say you?
Trentrunner
Old white male senators are not going to lead us out of this morass.
Mustang Bobby
Well, it’s better than the trial balloon of a couple of weeks ago: “I mean, have you seen the other guys?”
I prefer to go with Bruno Gianelli’s exhortation in The West Wing.
TenguPhule
I’d say you have a gift for understatement.
Old Chuck needs to be taken out back and horsewhipped until his behavior improves.
kindness
I thought the 2016 Democratic platform was pretty damn progressive. But then again I paid attention.
David Fud
I have already seen folks in my feed talking about how it is the Dems co-opting Bernie’s message and not doing the sufficient purging that will be required.
For my part, if this is the message that puts Democrats in and Republicans out in 2018, so be it. Winning against the crew that is now in control of most everything is more important than almost any other consideration for me.
woodrowfan
@kindness: but I was told it was all corporate!!!!!
Smiling Mortician
Nancy Pelosi’s version of Chuck Schumer’s op-ed is in the WaPo.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Trentrunner:
Increasingly, I feel that the only way this is going to end is in chaotic violence.
As for the op-ed, it was nice that he acknowledged, in a round about way, that the economy isn’t where it could and should be for many people and like Betty, I do think there is some truth to what a lot of parties are saying. I think the shift away from mentioning Trump is in response to some criticism that the Dems are focusing too much on him and Russia to the exclusion of policy.
Chuck was trying to thread the needle in terms of rhetoric. Rightly or wrongly, he didn’t want to appear too “far left” to win more conservative races in the future.
I truly think judgement should be reserved until more of the Democrats’ agenda is unveiled
Mnemosyne
I think Schumer is trying to make the Sanders bros happy without pissing off the rest of the coalition, but as usually happens with a compromise, nobody’s happy with it.
And we already know that the Sanders bros will refuse to take “yes” for an answer, because that’s the kind of assholes they are.
MattF
I think it’s OK that Schumer (fwiw, auto-correct wanted me to type ‘Schemer’) writes about what policies he wants, rather than about Republicans or Trump. It’s important to bring policy into the policy debate. Seriously. Sigh.
gene108
Don’t mind politicians sticking up for special interests, as long as the politician has a valid reason to be for the special interest.
Pharma is a big chunk of New Jersey’s economy. I expect NJ politicians to do what pharma thinks will help the industry.
I have the same attitude towards an Iowa politician sticking up for corn growing.
cervantes
There’s plenty of time to mention the orange baboon, this particular op-ed doesn’t have to be about that. And it’s not true that he proposes a job training band aid. He explicitly calls for $1 trillion in infrastructure spending; paid family and medical leave; a $15 an hour minimum wage, and more. He doesn’t say how it will be financed but certainly doesn’t say they won’t raise taxes on the wealthy. So I would say that these critics failed to do one essential thing: read it.
Tim C.
@David Fud: Amen!
Major Major Major Major
@David Fud:
Ah yes, Butthurt’s Law in action (which is a WIP). There is a sizable portion of the left for which disapproval from centrists and liberals is necessary for their political self-identification; any leftist ideas espoused by said centrists or liberals is a co-option, or done in bad faith, or insincere; any leftist idea sincerely held by centrists or liberals is, upon further examination, not a leftist idea at all.
I think that Dems need a positive message. Voters, in polls, think that Dems are the party of not-Trump, which is necessary but not sufficient. This is a positive message. Is it the one I would have picked? Parts of it, sure. And it uses small words.
Not the small words I would have picked, maybe, but we’re on the right track.
Mnemosyne
@David Fud:
Yep. The Berniebros don’t want to be listened to and have their ideas incorporated into the existing coalition. They want to rule and make everyone else “bend the knee” to them as undisputed lords of the party.
Fuck those guys.
dedc79
Read somewhere (wish I could remember where) that based on interviews/polling, the most effective way to get Trump’s base to jump ship is to link him to Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. That seems like a good strategy to me. Go after Trump for betraying his promises (however obvious it was to the rest of us from the start that they were empty promises). Link Big Business/Wall Street to Trump (that won’t be hard), Trump to the Republicans, and the Republicans to Trump. Then we’ve still got an effective message even if we are able to force Trump out of office.
TriassicSands
I was just reading an article in the WaPo about Trump appointing people with no relevant experience for their positions.
Trump and his fellow incompetents may be guilty of a lot of things, up to and including crimes and treason, but one thing they can’t be accused of is knowing what they’re doing. A complete list of incompetents would be even longer if Trump weren’t so incompetent that he’s failed to appoint people to fill many open positions.
I guess it’s hard finding that many incompetent people.
Roger Moore
@kindness:
This sounds about right to me. The Democrats already have a good platform. Nobody is 100% satisfied with it, but that’s inherent to the demands of writing policy for a diverse coalition; it’s full of compromises that make everyone OK with it but very few people thrilled. The big thing the Democrats need to do now is to do a better job selling the policies they’re already behind.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: My predictions from earlier months have not changed. As I’ve said repeatedly, our system was never designed for this, because voluntary compliance with the law was the bedrock of our Republic.
Amir Khalid
@kindness:
I thought so too. The party could do a lot worse than by accepting much or even most of Hillary’s 2016 action agenda. It can sell that agenda however it thinks fit, including this “Better Deal” rebranding. (Branding has always struck me as so much MBA hot air; but if the party reckons it will work, who am I to argue?)
gene108
One thing in the Better Deal that is important, but will get little attention is blocking M&A activity.
M&A really is what hollowed out the middle class and radically changed corporate culture in America.
Barbara
@Major Major Major Major: The permanently aggrieved get mad when you don’t do what they want and even madder when you do. My brother is like this. He doesn’t return your calls and then, when you stop calling, he yells at you for not calling. You are meant to fail. He wants you to fail because what he really wants is an excuse for his anger. People like this either need a dose of self-enlightenment or they need to be ignored.
Chyron HR
Even the sexy green M&A?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
I thought it was on the right track too. A little vague and I kinda see where some might think it was more “jobs re-training” and other stuff like that. Still too early to tell and vagueness makes some sense at this stage
Keith G
Taken as a whole, the American electorate are not the brightest group of people on the planet. I would think such a statement is painfully obvious given the last nine months.
Many very important and worthwhile Democratic ideas flew over the heads of the American electorate in last several years or were just targeted incorrectly. Like it or not, many American voters were in a visceral mood while they were being communicated to by others in an intellectual methodology.
I applaud what Schumer et al are trying. The change in tactics shows promise. I do think though that they are still a little bit off in their messaging.
Yutsano
@Smiling Mortician: It’s good that they’re in sync with each other, but honestly Nancy worded it better. Also nothing in there about student loan debt, which is a HUGE issue that needs to be addressed before The Witch who is Secretary gets done destroying all of it.
CTVoter
It’s a colossal mistake, and completely ignores the lesson of 2006.
Betty Cracker
@TriassicSands: Speaking of incompetents, did anyone see Kushner’s statement after his closed door, not-under-oath session with the congressional committee? Good gravy, what a brainless, clueless, arrogant fuckstick.
Kay
@Smiling Mortician:
But is “training” the problem? They would hire people at a “good wage” but they don’t because they can’t find anyone to train?
I’m having trouble coming up with a lot of small businesses that would “advance” people but for training. Which businesses are these and where are the employees advancing to after training? There are really a bunch of open slots a couple of tiers up in small businesses? That middle section is empty?
It assumes that the problem is a “skills gap” and that’s really not a given.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
Yes. He’s really digging his own grave here.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Roger Moore:
Largely this. They need to do a better job of selling themselves and their policies. A task not made easy by RW media and disappointingly the internet
Kirk
@Mnemosyne: They remind me of the people who talk of bands saying, “probably nobody you ever heard,” followed by “sellouts” when the band becomes well known enough they can buy a couple of meals a day.
TPHerald
It’s a good step towards ending neo-liberalism in the current Democratic party.
This is meant to outline the Dem platform going forward, so not mentioning Trump makes sense. That name will be front-and-center in the next 2 elections, no need to make him part of the formal party platform.
Major Major Major Major
@Barbara:
This is abusive behavior. They are abusive. (Not trying to call your brother abusive, I’m referring to this in the context of voters where they have actual power over you.)
Fuck them, I don’t care any more.
What caused me to not want to talk about politics yesterday was having brunch with a group that included one such person. He was mad at Hillary for being ‘inauthentic’ and Dems for not promoting leftist policies, then got mad at me when I pointed out that they do promote leftist policies because everybody knows they’re just being inauthentic like Hillary. Everybody believed Old Man Shouty when he said it though, even though he’s never actually done anything. So Dems need to do what Dems are doing, they just need to be somebody else while doing it.
@CTVoter:
What lesson is that, let things get truly horrendous and the votes come to you?
Kay
@Smiling Mortician:
The jobs they can’t fill here are fast food and “production”- the lowest tier manufacturing employees. They would fill them if they promised training? Training in what? They’re all gonna be managers? Those jobs don’t go begging.
VincentN
Wasn’t there a recent poll that said that most people think the Democrats don’t stand for anything besides opposing Trump? I think Schumer’s article was a response to that so it kinda makes sense that he wants to focus on showing that we have a positive vision that is separate from resisting Trump. There are plenty of articles about how horrible Trump is. There’s room for articles that talk about what we want to do to improve the country without making it about the opposition.
Jeffro
It’s a perfectly fine policy statement about trying to listen better and then be responsive to working families’ needs. Not a big deal either way.
I’m also fine with the statement barely mentioning Trumpov and the Republicans – they are making themselves pretty toxic to everyone but the 27%, so that part hardly needs to be a major focus.
Next topic…
Yarrow
It’s fine. I don’t see it as anti-Hillary since it’s about Democrats as a whole, not one specific Democrat. The Democrats are generally not as good at being relentlessly on message as the Republicans so if this puts everyone on the same message, and the message is jobs, jobs, jobs, that seems fine too.
I don’t see not mentioning Republicans or Trump as a problem in a message about defining what Democrats are and are for. “Not the other guys” isn’t really a great message.
I do think health care, health care, health care needs to be another talking point. Democrats bring you health care; Republicans take it away. Healthcare polls well.
Villago Delenda Est
Schumer’s problem is that he is, by the nature of the state he represents, beholden to vampires to some extent.
So was Hillary.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
Its because they don’t want to pay more for people with the skills they need. They just want to pay their workers less.
That’s it.
And Fuck any Democrat that wants to help these “employers” who are gonna fuck over their employees.
JMG
Schumer’s op-ed (Pelosi wrote one for the Post and this applies there too) is solely for the Beltway media, who will wail for hours a day that “the Democrats don’t have a positive message” if they don’t put out stuff like this from time to time. It’s just part of the standard Beltway media concept that the Democrats must play by the rules of golf while the Republicans can use UFC rules, and if they want, break those too..
Fair Economist
This is pretty much the 2016 party platform, which was already the most progressive platform in at least 30 years. It’s slightly more progressive, because it’s calling for a $15 minimum wage, which is a raise from the 2016 platform. These aren’t sops; these are big policy changes and they’d have a big positive effect on working Americans.
I think talking about policy is great, because attacking Trump and the Republicans wasn’t enough in 2016. Making the election about real policy is good for us and bad for the Republicans because generally the American publics agrees with our policies and *hates* Republican ones.
Betty Cracker
@Smiling Mortician: I thought Pelosi’s was far more effective. She made the same points and kept the focus on the Democrats’ agenda, but she also thwacked Trump and the GOP. That can’t be our sole focus, but it’s malpractice not to bring it up at all, IMO.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Kay:
I think I live around you (NE Ohio) and I’ve heard rumors that businesses can’t get trained welders and the such, either because the ones who are move to a bigger city with better pay or young people, myself included, decide to go to college instead of a trade school. Or they can’t afford it and work a couple min wage jobs to survive.
Bottom line is, most young people do not want to work those jobs or have been directed not to
TenguPhule
@JMG:
Following the rules of conventional beltway wisdom has never worked out well for our side.
Need to stop playing the enemy’s game.
Yutsano
@Betty Cracker: Throw up a thread about it?
Patricia Kayden
@TenguPhule: I sent him an email to express my anger at him throwing Secretary Clinton under the bus and giving Trump talking points about the Russian interference investigation. Shame on him!
gratuitous
Democrats did do a lousy job of messaging in 2016, viz., the number of voters who didn’t know that “Obamacare” was the Affordable Care Act. Democrats should mention Republicans and their skidmark of a President very prominently, and if there’s only one mention of Republicans and none of Trump in Schumer’s op-ed, that’s inadequate.
That being said, remember who the audience is for the slogan: I’m voting for the Democrats anyway, I’m not the target. We snickered last year at the people who fell for “Make America great again,” but damn if you don’t keep hearing it bleated out by the die-hard Trump supporters. Let’s find out if it was economic insecurity that got all those rural and exurban voters jumping on the Trump train. If Democrats win over 3-5% of those Trump voters, we could see a real wave election in 2018, and a simple, easy-to-grasp message like “a better deal” might be efficacious.
Major Major Major Major
@VincentN:
Very recent, yes, so this couldn’t be a reaction to that in particular. I imagine Dems have some internal polls saying the same.
@Yarrow:
Me neither. More than one headline talked about Schumer ‘ripping’ or ‘slamming’ Hillary for not ‘blaming herself’, but… well, he didn’t say that, it’s just what people are saying he said, because of course they are.
Mnemosyne
@Kay:
Right, but that’s not the only, or even the main, thing that’s being proposed. Should the very idea of retraining be left out altogether?
Raven Onthill
@David Fud: Sanders probably helped write it. Sanders understands compromise. Some of his crank followers, not so much.
“I saw how effective Bernie actually was. He was tenacious. He kept getting changes, amendments, and very large pieces of legislation … he did hold out for amendments and for changes that almost, in every case – virtually in every case – helped working people, and helped the poor, and I saw it again and again and again.” – Rob Reich
TenguPhule
@VincentN:
The problem is he’s using bullshit Republican style concepts to do it with.
How much do you want to bet that the GOP not only use his bad suggestions as their own, but blame the Democrats for the inevitable fallout from them?
Fair Economist
@Kay:
This is copying the German and Scandinavian training systems, which work very well. There’s good money in mid-wage manufacturing, but in a “free market” nobody trains their employees because the employees will normally move on in a few years and so some other company gets the benefit of the training. So you only get companies that use unskilled labor. An aggressive government-driven training program will create a pool of skilled workers, which will in turn drive new businesses with higher value-added production.
Thoroughly Pizzled
I think the specifics of messaging are vastly overemphasized, so as long as it’s not actively harmful I don’t care. I’m done with people always pointing to THIS ad or THIS slogan that cost Dems the election.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Fair Economist:
Unfortunately they either still vote for the R because single issue, or they buy into the zombie lie that both sides same thing no point
Citizen_X
@Kay: Training is partly the problem. Businesses used to say they “hire for ability, and train for skill,” but they don’t believe in training anymore. They expect employees to come to them ready-trained (from where, if everyone is doing the same thing, I do not know), and they leave positions open forever because “We can’t find anybody with the right skills!” Well, of course not, they’re already employed.
NotMax
Seems mostly boilerplate.
Which is all well and good if one is trying to sell boilers.
Which is not the function of a political party.
Rich Webb
Trump is the elephant in the room; he doesn’t really need mentioning, everyone gets that he’s a horrible buffoon. Just running as the We’re Not Trump party or the Russian Meddling is Bad party is too thin to do more than touch your already committed voters.
People need work and there’s plenty of work that needs doing. The infrastructure that needs “fixin’ up” is more than just road and bridges; there’s the medical infrastructure (how accessible (distance/capacity/cost) is the nearest urgent care facility?); IT infrastructure (how about a TVA-style project for rural broadband?); financial (free checkings/savings and low-cost loans at the local post office instead of the title loan and payday lenders); lots more. A modern WPA/CCC to do more than build trails in national parks (although that’s a good thing, too).
Give people a reason to be for your party, not just against the other guys.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
Democrats lose the white demographic consistently, yet white people never seem to be able to get around to telling other white people to wake up to the fact that they’re responsible for their own problems by ignoring class in favor of race.
gene108
@Roger Moore:
To effectively sell their policies, Dems and their supporters need a level of message discipline they do not possess.
If Republicans had rolled a major framework for policy, right-wing media would be out rallying support for it.
And from the comments here, seems like would-be Democratic supporters first reaction is to figure how this framework fails us.
Self introspection is important, but it isn’t what sells products or policies.
TenguPhule
@Fair Economist:
From what new pool of demand? Or do you think that these businesses will be hiring out of the good of their corporate hearts?
Supply side economics hasn’t worked, ever.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
I agree with others who state the Bros will never be happy with anything that doesn’t put them in charge. Given that most of he-who-shall-not-be-named (BS) supporters actually voted for Clinton, I don’t think that stupid attitude represents most of them. On most policy goals, BS and Clinton were aligned. His younger and less loony supporters, for some reason, were not getting that message. I do think the Dems need to reach out and beat people over the head with a simple message until it is actually heard over all the right-wing and alt-left garbage. We had a lot of defections in the last election that should not have happened.
Cheryl Rofer
@Thoroughly Pizzled: THIS
Kay
I’m having trouble figuring out how giving an employer a tax credit for training new employees “empowers” workers.
I understand employer tax credits. I’m not clear on the “empowering workers” part of this plan. Doesn’t it just tie them to the employer until they complete the subsidized “training”? I see how it benefits employers.
Wages are inching up here BECAUSE they need employees. They’re desperate. Democrats are gonna jump in an provide subsidized employees?
I just think this is very misguided and to pick it as the central focus of your economic plan is just very disappointing to me.
They have one chance to do the big launch and they lead with employer tax credits?
TenguPhule
@Rich Webb:
“Come with us if you want to live”
Can’t be much clearer then that.
Fair Economist
@TenguPhule:
Care to provide links where Republicans have said anything like this recently:
These are New Deal concepts, not Republican ones.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
That’s all on Sanders and his egomaniacal need to cultivate resentment up to and through the convention. He knew what he was doing, and didn’t care, because he’s a fucking asshole.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Rich Webb:
Hillary tried to sell that. Nobody gave a shit
Kay
@Citizen_X:
Well, they’re hiring them and training them because they couldn’t find the extra-special Goldilocks employees they wanted- they’re also raising wages. The minute markets start to go pro-employee we’re ready to jump in? They’re raising wages. That’s because they have to.
germy
I remember reading the “help wanted” ads in the late ’70s/early ’80s and seeing so many “No Experience Necessary; Will Train” ads.
And jobs I had during that time, I remember training all sorts of new hires: “This is how you operate this computer” “This is how this machine works” etc. I was expected to train my replacement when I was promoted or when I gave notice.
Do employers want the government to train workers now? Then they’d better accept higher taxes (on their companies and their personal wealth)
kindness
@gratuitous: Can anyone force anyone to actually learn or pay attention? If we are going to use citizens who didn’t know ObamaCare and the ACA are the same thing as a metric I’m going to suggest ‘As a Metric for what?’ Really, people who go out of their way to be completely ignorant isn’t Democrats fault. Those people are the way they are because they CHOSE TO BE. Stop blaming Democrats for these cretins. These are not the people anyone should use to evaluate whether or not the Democratic message is getting out there. For anyone who wants to listen it is. For those who don’t it doesn’t. Shocking, I know.
TenguPhule
@gratuitous:
Oh fuck that tired old bullshit.
The message went out for YEARS, ever since the fucking ACA was proposed and passed.
Anyone who hasn’t figured it out by now either DIDN’T FUCKING CARE or was never listening in the first place.
That’s not a messaging problem, that’s a “people too stupid and dangerous to be allowed to vote” problem.
AliceBlue
@Mnemosyne:
Mr. AliceBlue likes to say that Bernie created the left-wing version of the tea party.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: Right, see, that probably isn’t enough.
And people are already as aware as they’re gonna get that Trump is not a Democrat.
They need positive, simply-worded policies that sound like good things. The specifics, while important to actual implementation, don’t matter so much during a general election.
Fair Economist
@Kay:
For the duration of the training program – maybe 2 years – the employer gets a subsidized employee – and the employee is getting at least as much pay as they would have otherwise. For the rest of their working life – 20, 30 years – the employee has a new skill and a greatly improved bargaining situation, because now the employer can’t just replace them with somebody off the street.
Who’s got the better part of this deal?
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
What Democrats need to do is get ourselves a fucking story. That’s what we haven’t had now for years. Clinton never had a story. Kerry never had a story. Obama never had much of a story, either, but he overcame that because things were such a mess in 2008. Republicans understand how to tell a story. They’re good at it. Trump was a master. Everybody knew what the story was, and what he was going to do about it. The last Democrat who had a story that everybody could understand was John Edwards in 2004 and 2008.
We need to find some way to get our story across. We don’t need candidates who can list off all the things on the platform, or explain who this or that policy is going to affect this or that constituency. Well, we do need that, but that isn’t enough. We need a story. The New Deal. The Great Society. Democrats used to be so good at this. Everybody knew what Democrats stood for. Everybody knew what our overall beliefs were. Somewhere along the way, we lost that knack, and in its place, the Republicans have been telling their story, and they’ve been telling our story, too. We’ve let them tell voters what we believe, and when we do answer it, it’s defensively. We need to take the initiative. Ticking off policy proposals isn’t good enough.
We really let ourselves get knocked around needlessly over the last 20 years. Democrats seem to make the mistake over and over again of thinking that we don’t need a good story. Our policies should speak for themselves, right? When Republicans began going around talking about pulling the plug on Grandma, Democrats just let it all hang out there. It’s easy enough to understand, after all. It was such an idiotic claim nobody would ever believe it, right? Wrong, as we learned. Republicans told the story. They told what we were doing and why, and what it would mean, Democrats left it all unanswered, and all too many people bought it.
It’s up to Democrats to figure out what the hell we stand for and why. What do we believe? What do we want for American society? What do we want to do, and why? I happen to think the Two Americas still works. It’s a beginning, but it isn’t enough. It defines the problem, but we need a pithy, short sentence or two to tell what we want instead. What’ll it be?
Mary
I see a lot of people here saying that this is not quite the right message. Then what is? What the heck are Dems supposed to say other than you’re going to make more money and things won’t cost as much? We’re already treading into Trump-level bullshit with this message. The only thing left to do is find some enemy to vilify. Is that what we want? I’m honestly asking and not trying to be overly argumentative.
Major Major Major Major
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
This is… not true.
mai naem mobile
Too many big words. People don’t read much anymore. They text which means simple words. Use third grade level educalion level language .
Kay
I don’t mean to be a wet blanket but the Obama Administration ran on this- they ran on apprenticeships and job training.
Democrats could have joined in around 2010. Now it’s basically full employment and they’re ready to subsidize new employees? They’ll hire them anyway, subsidy or no subsidy. They don’t have any choice. The Goldilocks employees they wanted are already working.
germy
@TenguPhule: I saw Schumer on one of the Sunday morning TV shows. They asked him what the democrats “did wrong”. I wanted him to remind them about their showing trump’s empty podium and ignoring Hillary’s policy speech, but unfortunately that didn’t come up.
TenguPhule
@Fair Economist: As I recall, Trump was promising all of that and more at every fucking campaign rally. Every fucking Republican that gets interviewed preaches the same bullshit talking points.
Its to the point that the words themselves lose all meaning.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Democrats stand for securing the rights of women, POC, gays and immigrants as first class citizens. Everything else flows from that since by every metric whites/males are better of than minorities in every way. The GOP stands for keeping all of the above-mentioned as second class citizens. It’s as simple as that.
Frank Wilhoit
“…only mentions Republicans once. I think that’s a mistake….”
It is a mistake; but the opportunity to correct it came and went in 1979-80, and will never come again. So it is not useful, at this late date, to call it a mistake. Like it or not, “the house is on fire” and “if the house hadn’t caught on fire, this would have been the year to re-do the kitchen” are now two entirely separate tracks.
TenguPhule
@Fair Economist:
And if you believe that, I have a nice bridge to sell you, cheap.
Barbara
@Major Major Major Major: Oh he’s abusive, mostly to my mother, but he is also probably mentally ill. At any rate, I read Schumer’s op-ed and I thought it was fine. I don’t like the fact that he claimed that the 2016 platform didn’t address a lot of what he talked about, but I understand why he did that. He wants to look forward. I do too.
Fair Economist
@TenguPhule:
Well, first, the Dem messaging was often wobbly because it often was “yes, the ACA has problems and I’ll work to improve it.” Then there’s the problem that the media won’t report the Dem messaging. The CBO scores are the first thing to get out to the public that the ACA was a HUGE improvement, getting insurance for 25 million, saving thousands of lives, and preventing hundreds of thousands of bankruptcies.
This message is good and while it doesn’t fix the media bias, at least we’ve got a talking point the next time some pundit spews nonsense about “no positive message”.
smintheus
Just got a backdated form letter in the mail from Pat Toomey responding to my long ago call(s) to his office. There isn’t a single sentence in it that does not contain at least one falsehood and often several. That includes the second sentence:
Bard the Grim
@Major Major Major Major:
I strongly agree. Anyone who doesn’t recognize Trump is a Bad Thing at this point isn’t going to vote for Dems because we remind them one or a thousand more times. People want to vote for something, too, if they can.
I’d love to see the Dems push to remove or at least raise the Social Security payroll tax limit, which is hugely regressive. Currently, every dollar of wages below $127,200 is taxed at 6.20%, but everything above that limit is tax-free. Paper-pushing overpaid financial industry leeches making $1 million a year therefore pay an overall rate of less than 1%. I can’t find a reference at the moment, but the CBO or maybe SSA did a study (probably regularly) where they figured that removing the limit would fill about 90% of the Social Security funding gap. (The 1.45% Medicare rate has no limit, in contrast.) In my dreams, I’d like to see the first, say, $10k of wages be tax free.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
If our voting public really is that stupid, we’re in more trouble then I thought.
Shlemazel
@Trentrunner:
If they don’t then it isn’t going to happen. Too many will always favor voting for the white guy, too many of the entrenched power dynamic are old white guys. If this is to be done within my lifetime old white guys have to do some leading. They just can’t think and act like old white guys.
germy
@Citizen_X:
My favorite is when employers ask for “five years experience” on a computer program that has only been around for two years.
Shlemazel
@Trentrunner:
If they don’t then it isn’t going to happen. Too many will always favor voting for the white guy, too many of the entrenched power dynamic are old white guys. If this is to be done within my lifetime old white guys have to do some leading. They just can’t think and act like old white guys.
Kay
@Fair Economist:
That’s really best case. The best apprenticeships are like that- a portable skill. They vary WILDLY. The Obama Administration did some- some were a good deal and some were a terrible deal. The whole thing was left up to the employer. The reason apprenticeships work is there are standards- the employer gets an employee who can do X and has X numbers of years. That mitigates their risk with a new hire.
They use this in labor union apprenticeships. Contractors say someone has a “good card” or a “bad card”- they’re basing that on the quality of the training. So if you come out of Local X training you’re a good bet but if you come out of Local Y training you’re not. Apprenticeships are hundreds of years old. They know how they work.
catclub
To the 99+% of Americans with income under $200k/yr:
If you think the party of the plutocrats, whose only goal is cutting taxes for those plutocrats, is going to go to bat for you, ever, dream on.
get with the party that works for your interests.
Yarrow
@AliceBlue: Putin couldn’t be more pleased.
Frank Wilhoit
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: You are perfectly right to point out that conservatism is all and only about first- and second-class citizenship; but it’s still not quite as simple as that. What Democrats ought to be standing for is equality under/before the law. Everything that we call “identity politics” flows from that, one victim [group] at a time. The result is the appearance of minoritarianism, which is obviously incoherent. I am not sure how (or why) the original message got lost (or was thrown away), but the only possible message going forward is accountability (for all actors, at all times), because every Republican proposal is about unaccountability.
Shlemazel
@kindness:
And there it is. People paying attention will know that the Dem positions are progressive. But the media and too many voters are not interested in the hard work of paying attention.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
If Schumer thinks he’s going to get Berniebros to pat him on the back, he’s sadly mistaken. The cult wants their fraud Sanders, and no one else will do. Wake up, white guys, or step aside.
Fair Economist
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
“A Better Deal for American Workers” is pretty pithy and clear.
TenguPhule
@Mary:
Yes. Because we do have an actual enemy and they really are going to try and kill us all.
Negative campaigning works. That’s why the Republicans deployed it against us to great effect.
We need to return in kind, with interest.
Positive campaigning is an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
Mary
@Bard the Grim: As someone who benefits financially from the limit, I 100% agree with you. It makes no sense.
tobie
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I hear a lot that it’s tough to get people with the proper training to work certain manufacturing jobs, especially those involving servicing and programming the equipment used to make parts. If I recall there were some pretty surprising statistics about manufacturing jobs in the US that could not be filled for want of skills but I need to look that up. I don’t entirely trust the hearsay I’m relying on.
Kay
@Fair Economist:
The danger of over-selling apprenticeships or job training is discrediting those things. It has to be done really well.
You think they’re mad now wait until they sink 5 years into 30 dollars an hour and don’t get it at the end.
ruemara
@Raven Onthill: You believe Robert Reich? Look, he’s a Bernie fanboy too and he was a Clintonite neoliberal before that. Sanders is very effective at promoting Sanders.
Mary
@TenguPhule: OK, but people are also saying that we can’t just be “not Republicans,” and that we have to offer something. So is the idea that we have to say both things every single time rather than splitting the message?
TenguPhule
@Kay:
Yep.
Its the “go to college if you want a good job!” all over again.
Destroy the very quality that made it pay well in the first place by oversupply.
geg6
Very, very weak tea.
As for not mentioning Trump, I have no problem with that. This is supposed to be about what Dems are going to do for the American people, so I don’t really think Trump is all that relevant in this context. But I have a major problem with the implied diss against Hillary. STFU, Chuck. Just STFU about that. You were no help to her when she was trying her best to get her policies out there. Just fuck off with this shit. If this is how they plan to go ahead, by criticizing Hillary for the fact that no one but her was talking about her economic ideas, I’m out. I have no use for this.
Major Major Major Major
@germy:
So much of this industry has things completely backwards. It’s better to find a programmer who’s interested in and good at learning and then train them, than it is to find a bootcamp grad who ‘knows’ the exact framework you use.
(Coding, interestingly enough, is an example of an industry where training with specific tools really can help.)
Fair Economist
@Kay:
I agree implementation matters. You can have training programs that don’t help (for the wrong jobs, for overly specific jobs, and training too many for particular jobs.) But, it’s a necessity if you want good work. Free/subsidized college works because to a large extent it’s also job training in writing, analyzing, math, etc. But not all skills are intellectual and if we want to play with the big boys and not just compete with international sweatshops we have to have government-sponsored training in blue-collar and pink-collar skills.
Jeffro
Schumer, schmoomer…here’s something just waiting, DYING, to be batted about by our National Snooze Media (preferably by Morning Joe!):
Paul Ryan: Bob Mueller is not a ‘biased partisan’
WHOA NELLIE!
I think that deep down in their hearts, in places Republicans don’t want to talk about, they Want Mueller On That Wall, they NEED Mueller on that wall…in order to take Trumpov out, get Pence in, and try to save themselves from going down on the Orangetanic. Good luck, cowards!
TenguPhule
@Mary:
We do offer them something, a scapegoat for every single misery in their lives that has the advantage of being the true culprit.
Got a problem? “Republican’s fault”
Lost a loved one? “Republican’s fault”
Out of work? “Republicans Fault”
Water is undrinkable? “Republican’s fault”
A single clear unbroken message.
“Its the Republican’s fault.”
Major Major Major Major
I still think they should have called it The Real Deal.
Kay
@TenguPhule:
Obama tried this. He went to Cleveland to sell it.
It’s fine but I think they have to address people who are already working, which with 5% unemployment is the vast majority of people. This has been the Democrats’ “plan” forever- “upskill” and that creates some cycle of prosperity. It’s fine but they have been literally running on this since 1992.
smintheus
Great idea. Let’s train everybody to be a welder, give them their welding tools, and then send them out to weld shut all the entrances to the country’s gated communities. Then we can move on to Step 2, whatever that is.
NorthLeft12
@Fair Economist:
The above is completely wrong.
First off in our [I am including Canada in this] societies, businesses have almost completely downloaded the critical job of training onto governments and schools. Training is an expense that they absolutely do not want to be responsible for.
Secondly, employees do not run off to other jobs unless they have a very good reason. ie. much higher pay, better benefits, a better future, and improved working environment. In general, employees will stay put unless they can make a significant improvement in most or all of those areas.
There are companies that train their employees. They are successful, forward thinking, fair, and generally inspire loyalty from their employees precisely because of those qualities.
TenguPhule
@Mary:
These are the same people with their beltway wisdom who shit on Democrats, more often then not
catclub
@TenguPhule:
Yep, And how people not in the 1% would lap it up and decide that ‘in the favor of of the wealthy and powerful’ meant Democrats and people of color,
… I got nothing.
Fair Economist
@Kay:
Yes, we can get in trouble by overselling. At this point, though, the working class is so beat up we don’t have to. I was watching a documentary on the end of coal and part of it was about retraining the workers who are never going to work in Appalachian coal mines because the mines will never re-open. After a couple years of unemployment, they were grateful to get retrained for $10 an hour farming jobs.
bystander
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Absolutely. Schumer was positive and upbeat. As for referencing Trump, he does so regularly and vocally.
Today on some MSNBC segment, Hallie Jackson was clutching her pearls because Adam Schiff responded on Twitter to Trump calling him “sleazy”. I do not see the downside of responding. Schiff didn’t engage in namecalling but called Trump out on watching too much tv and behaving in a manner beneath the office.
smintheus
@Kay: And somebody who invests the time and goes through a job training program, and then finds little or no work as a result, is not likely ever to try it a second time.
There are many areas where you need to create jobs of any kind before talking about job training.
catclub
@smintheus:
welding pitchforks heads onto metal bars.
Kay
@Fair Economist:
When they went to Cleveland to announce machinist training at 10 dollars an hour every machinist is like “great! a whole bunch of new unskilled employees who come in lower than I do, and I’ll be training them” :)
Do you see what I mean? Offering this aspirational “if this plan works just right then THIS will happen, in the great wheel o commerce” doesn’t really speak to people who are working now.
Yarrow
@Jeffro: Heh. Maybe Ryan has been brought in for a little chat with Mueller’s team and doesn’t want to piss off the guy who knows he’s a traitor
Fair Economist
@NorthLeft12:
Um, how is this disagreeing with me? I said in a free-market economy employers don’t have the incentives to train their employees, and so they don’t, and the government needs to. You say I’m wrong because employers don’t, and it’s basically done by governments and schools?
namekarB
My father said a lifetime ago “The difference between Republicans and Democrats is that you know the Republicans are out to screw the little guy. The Democrats however, lie and tell the little guy that they are on his side.”
geg6
@Raven Onthill:
Boy, he’s turned into an utter shill. I don’t read him anymore because he’s as worthless as Bernie and his invisible amendments.
smintheus
@smintheus: As you said just above.
Yutsano
@TenguPhule:
Maybe. Positive campaigning also appeals to the need for people to vote FOR something as well. As we saw, it’s not enough to get someone to vote against something “bad”. There has to be some positive substance there as well.
It’s a balance.
catclub
@TenguPhule: Don Blankenship is a loyal Republican who endangered and killed his employees for profit.
He is typical of the type.
Find me a business owner who endangers his employees and I will show you a Republican.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Well, that’s all right as far as it goes. But we have to find a way to tell it in a way that people can grasp without a lot of thought, and can identify with. Otherwise, we let the Republicans define us.
I guess what I’m saying is, why was Clinton running last year? We all knew why Trump was running. The system was dirty and he was going to clean it up. “Elites” didn’t respect good, hard working Americans, and he was going to slap them around and show them who was boss. It was all horseshit, but that didn’t matter. People could understand it and people could identify it. And people bought it. Not a whole lot, not a majority, but enough to squeak into office.
Why was Clinton running? She had 46,000 proposals, and she could talk at length about any and all of them. But she had no story. There was no one obvious, easily identified and understood reason for her running. I think that hurt her. Obama, for all his skills, didn’t have that, either, but the circumstances of his election–a disaster left by Bush, a McCain campaign which had no real theme or story itself–let him overcome that.
And the shame of it all is that we could have the best stories. We have the best themes. We’re on the right side here. The facts are on our side and morality is on our side, and if we went to the trouble of doing something about it, we’d have the best story, too. Most voters aren’t like us. We follow the news. We post on blogs about it. We know everything Trump does and why, and we can tell you why it’s so poisonous to our country, to democracy. We don’t need any stories. We’re going to vote for Clinton, or whoever the Democrats nominate.
But most Americans don’t follow this shit the same way. They aren’t listening to political news until the election is at hand, and then, they don’t know much about policy, or care much about it. They look for broad themes. They look for a story. If both sides have one, they’ll look at them both and choose the one they like better. If one side has one and the other doesn’t, well, sometimes the storyless side can overcome that, as we did in 2008. But look at 2004. By all rights, Kerry should have won. People already knew how disastrous Bush was. But he had a story: We’ll keep you safe. It was horseshit, but it was something everybody could understand. And against him, we ran a guy who couldn’t really tell you why he was running. He had no story. And Bush won.
It’s a kind of political malpractice not to come up with our own story.
Fair Economist
@Kay:
In my experience, the trainers like training and often get raises themselves. We do need to make sure training programs aren’t used to supplant existing workers (another important implementation detail.)
Kay
@Fair Economist:
They have trouble finding workers for poultry farms here. That’s because the jobs are a nightmare and they don’t pay very much. Literally a nightmare- dangerous, long hours, you can’t do it past 40 or 50. There are no older people working there.
That’s not the “skills gap” and I’m not sure chicken can get any cheaper unless they start giving it away.
NR
I think this is good as a starting point. I’m not sure Chuck Schumer is the best messenger for it, but his admission that Democrats haven’t been as good on these issues that they could have and should have been is nice to see. The first two principles are ones I can get behind. The third won’t work for everyone but will be good for some people.
However, I’m going to reserve judgment until I see specifics.
rikyrah
This is it. It’s time to act to #SaveOurCare—send a free fax to your Senator to tell them to vote NO on #Trumpcare: https://t.co/ZFC1NOa2LX pic.twitter.com/6NWta0av9Z
— NARAL (@NARAL) July 24, 2017
Major Major Major Major
@geg6: Yeah, Reich really lost me during the late primary, I don’t really care what he says any more.
Many authors lost me during the late primary.
TenguPhule
@Fair Economist:
And this is not a good thing.
Privatize the profits, socialize the costs.
Kay
@Fair Economist:
The only reason they apprentice system works at is because it’s highly regulated. If it wasn’t they’d just plug a revolving set of apprentices in-they’d have a newer, cheaper workforce every 4 years. Tax credits are the opposite of “regulated”.
TenguPhule
@NR:
And we now have the BalloonJuice kiss of death as to whether or not this was a good idea.
If NR agrees with it, you know they fucked up.
Hungry Joe
I’m at wit’s end (not that far, I know) with what to do about a Berniebro family member who keeps posting (on Facebook) about how Hillary stole the nomination, and deleted e-mails, and there’s enough evidence to indict her for … whatever. This, to me, is like being in a car that’s gone off a bridge and into a river, and, with the water rising around you, screaming about how the goddam mechanic overcharged you for that oil change. Well, okay, maybe he did, but …
Karen
I have to give credit where credit is due; never before have politicians made me feel like the 70’s when I was pg and nearly everything made me sick
rikyrah
@Kay:
did you see my post in the Morning open thread from the Rev. Al show?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
White Americans come up with their own story, and seek out reinforcement for it, hence the success of Fox – blacks are lazy moochers, Muslims are terrorists, immigrants take our jobs and rape our women, women belong in service to men. Whites left the Democrats over integration of workplaces, unions, schools, neighborhoods to become Reagan Democrats, now Republicans. Democrats represent people who want what whites have, and whites feel like if they don’t get their unearned privilege reinforced, it feels oppressive. Berniebros are the example on the left. The system of oppression everyone wants ameliorated is white male supremacy, except white males can’t see it.
TenguPhule
@Yutsano:
Millions of thick as shit people voted “against that bitch”. That was what it boiled down to.
People will sure as hell come out to vote against something bad. You just have to be the one who defines what is bad.
In fact, we’ve just seen that a positive campaign DIDN’T WORK.
Major Major Major Major
@Hungry Joe: Unfollow them.
Kay
@Fair Economist:
I like the rest of the plan but you are never going to convince me that Democrats saying “job training” is new. They have been saying this for 30 years. The only difference here is they’re giving the subsidy to employers instead of the employee.
geg6
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
I’m so sick of all this pandering to white people (like me!). Dems aren’t going to get any white people that they don’t already have. They have to quit with this shit. No one here in Western PA or West Virginia or Eastern OH who voted for Trump are going to vote for a Dem. They are lost causes and whatever crumbs might fall off and decide to join our side aren’t numerous enough to make even writing these op-eds worth the time and effort.
We have to start concentrating on our base. This is what the GOP does, to their detriment admittedly, but it seems to work for them. They have a dedicated phalanx of crazed supporters who will walk over coals to support their people. Instead of that same kind of time and attention being lavished on their base, the Dems are always chasing the fucking disgusting Death Eaters disguised as unicorns, the white male working class. Who we lost forty years ago and who we will never be able to bring back into the fold. How about we go after real, live unicorns, like all the people of color and single women who don’t vote? If we could capture those unicorns, we’ll win and we won’t have to pander to stupid, uneducated white (mostly male) people. I won’t do it anymore and I suggest the Dems stop it, too. Or they’ll be losing a lot of enthusiasm and worker bees like me along the way. And good luck to them getting these lazy, angry and stupid white men to do the work people like me and my friends of color have been doing all these years.
So, so, so sick of this shit. Beyond sick of it.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
Haven’t you ever heard of stopped clocks being right at least once a day?
Kay
@rikyrah:
I did. That sec of state is just digging his own grave with this. He needed to get off that commission yesterday.
CTVoter
@Major Major Major Major: Run against Bush and Bush policies.
Major Major Major Major
@CTVoter: worked great in 2004.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Whatever truth this may hold, it’s not a great campaign message
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: NR isn’t a stopped clock, the position always moves to ensure that NR is always wrong.
NR
@TenguPhule: Hey, if you’d rather shut out people with different ideas and keep listening to the people who lost the entire country to the Republicans, that’s your choice. Just don’t come crying to me when you lose again.
Mnemosyne
@Villago Delenda Est:
And today’s hero Adam Schiff will be unacceptable to the dudebros because he’s beholden to Big Entertainment and supported the really bad copyright law extension.
There is NO Democratic politician who doesn’t support something crappy. Even St. Bernie is opposed to gun control.
rikyrah
@gratuitous:
Democrats don’t need to win over any of those voters.
They just need to make sure that DEMOCRATIC voters aren’t voter suppressed.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
Yes, because TenguPhule will single-handedly keep the Dems losing elections because he refused to listen to you. Your stopped clock moment is over
TenguPhule
@NR:
No, we need you as the canary in the coal mine. It helps us spot when Democrats do something stupid.
Kay
@Fair Economist:
1992:
We used to joke that Bill Clinton wanted everyone to be a nurse :)
I could find one of these every year going back to 1986 I bet. It’s fine but it isn’t “bold” and it isn’t “new”.
geg6
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Bullshit. This is complete and utter bullshit. You are seriously arguing that a better slogan will win the game?
No, we need to quite chasing voters we’re never going to get. Let’s actually treat the base like it’s important. How about that? No, instead we get all this stupid shit meant to attract white men (and their stupid women).
TenguPhule
@gratuitous:
Or just make sure at least 10% of the Trump supporter base doesn’t want to vote again.
Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@rikyrah:
This too, but not mutually exclusive methinks
rikyrah
What do Democrats stand for?
We stand for NOT committing TREASON and betraying this country.
And, YES, we need to be saying it..LOUDLY.
TenguPhule
@rikyrah:
Democrats stand for the United States of America.
Republicans stand for the Russian Federation.
Get that message across and we win.
NR
@TenguPhule:
If losing 1,000 legislative seats to the Republicans wasn’t enough to clue you in to the fact that the Democrats were already doing stupid things, nothing will be.
Kay
2006. I remember people liked the college plan:
PJ
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.): There seems to have been a serious decline in oratory and storytelling skills among politicians since the 1960s. I wonder if it is because, with the rise of the managerial class, politicians are used to speaking to other policy people, and referring to power point presentations and websites, rather than the fundamental task of breaking complex issues down into simple, powerful statements understandable by the slowest person in class. Trump is a terrible speaker, but he got his message across because he is only capable of thinking and speaking in simple statements.
Chyron HR
@NR:
The current Bernie-approved language is “BEND THE KNEE, YOU GODDAMNED (insert slur here)”. Please update your post accordingly.
ruemara
@namekarB: Your father wasn’t smart then and isn’t smart now.
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: YES IT IS. Jesus Christ. More of the actual base of POC are being disenfranchised than those ok with bigotry Trump voters. FUCK THEM, HELP US.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@geg6:
I hear ya sister. I’m so sick of white people I could scream – and being white, I know what I’m talking about. They’re the dumbest blindest species on earth, incapable of doing anything about their own miserable existence even though they have the key, because it’s like explaining water to fish.
TenguPhule
@NR: We’ve crushed the Republicans in our state into insignificance. I think we know more about this then you do.
Amaranthine RBG
I don’t know if this is the right approach but, clearly, Democrats do need to change something.
If you can’t beat Donald Fucking Trump in a national election, you have some real problems.
Kay
They should just run on Clinton’s whole platform. No one heard it over the email din, so no one will notice.
It was really pretty good. Just get the Clinton voters and 90k wishy washy Trumpsters over 4 states and they’re golden.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
The for profit ripoff colleges had a field day.
And that left a lot of very unhappy and much poorer voters.
AM in NC
Democrats want affordable healthcare for all Americans; Republicans want to protect the profits of the insurance companies.
Democrats want higher wages for the working and middle class; Republicans want more visas for foreign workers and tax cuts for billionaires.
Democrats want equal rights for all; Republicans want the government in your bedroom, your doctor’s office, and your uterus.
Democrats want to build roads, bridges, and broadband internet access to serve all areas of our country; Republicans want more toll roads and think the cable companies’ profits are more important than citizens’ access to the internet.
Democrats want the best public schools and universities in the world; Republicans cut education spending and allow for-profit diploma mills to rip off students AND taxpayers.
Democrats want us to own the future of green energy jobs AND let us live on a healthier planet; Republicans want China and Germany to eat our lunch in green jobs, and all of us to suffer from a polluted world.
Democrats want to end the costly and ineffective war on drugs; Republicans want to put more of us in prison for smoking a joint or becoming addicted to pain killers after an injury.
Democrats want big money out of politics; Republicans have fought EVERY attempt to stop billionaires from buying our elections.
Democrats want to protect our fundamental right to vote and help citizens participate in our representative democracy; Republicans suppress the vote and try to limit our freedoms.
Democrats are for us all; Republicans are for the aristocracy.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
NRese translated to English
rikyrah
@catclub:
And, he’s running for Senator, isn’t he?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amaranthine RBG:
Like voter suppression and a hostile foreign power aiding your opponent?
NR
@TenguPhule: Hey, that’s great.
Pity there are so many other states where the opposite has happened.
One state is very different from the whole country.
Mnemosyne
@Kay:
Kay, I realize that once you see the words “job training” you’re unable to focus on anything else, but THAT’S NOT THE WHOLE PLAN!
You are obsessing about a small part of a large plan like that’s the only thing being offered. It isn’t. Please stop.
Laura
How about a message guarantying a job for adults and youth. How about growing government big enough to address the unmet needs of regular folks? Jeebus, this country is falling apart and how about having American workers rebuild it?
That’s a simple message that is both true and inspiring. Be the party of working people by building stuff.
Major Major Major Major
@Kay:
Pretty much this. And it kind of looks like that’s what this new thing is. We may unfortunately have to wrap it up as “not what Hillary said” since nobody (including some otherwise intelligent political junkies I know) seems to have heard her say it, and the narrative is that she didn’t.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Yep, Citizens United and the gutting of the VRA never happened. The Republicans won all of those seats fair and square, amirite?
TenguPhule
@NR:
Yes, because they didn’t follow our example.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Poor establishment Democrats just can’t catch a break, through absolutely no fault of their own.
rikyrah
@geg6:
tell it.
TELL IT!!
Major Major Major Major
All this pie talk is making me hungry. I’m gonna get lunch.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne:
Be careful! NR might think you’re “hectoring” them!
Kent
I’m a 53 year old white guy progressive Democrat with 3 young daughters. Pretty much everything I care about deeply can be wrapped up into a single 1-sentence slogan:
“A better life for your kids”
Education (K-12 plus college)
Environment and climate change
Jobs
Health care
Civil Rights of all kinds
Housing
Etc.etc.etc.
Americans have ALWAYS been forward looking and Americans have always been willing to put up with all manner of deprivation if it was going to result in a better future for their kids. From farmers in the Great Depression and immigrants working shit jobs to soldiers during WWII. It was all about making life better for their children.
I think we have lost some of this recently and many Americans are no longer optimistic about their future of their kids future. I’d like to see the Democratic slogan recapture some of this kind of optimism and make it about the kids. That is how we get back the middle America and working families vote. Make it about their kids future. It should be an easy sell: Tax cuts for rich old white men vs education for your children. Tax cuts for rich old white men vs healthcare for your children. Tax cuts for rich old white men vs investment in infrastructure for the future.
rikyrah
@Kay:
He sounded so damn clueless.
Give it a chance?
PHUCK OUTTA HERE.
ruemara
You guys are seriously ignoring the problem if you think it’s about a slogan. This is why I think you’re going to be in a fascist, authoritarian rule era for 50 years. You can’t see the forest for the goddamned trees. Votes are being suppressed. You already have folks who agree. Enough in enough states to win completely. You need to counter each move to deny their vote. Instead you’re worried about bumpersticker slogans and reaching out to folks who gladly signed up with neonazis to destroy their country. Fuck. You cannot be this blind and deaf and succeed. You’re not going to win anything but shit internet brownie points with a “more progressive vision”. You want to win, help your goddamned allies get IDs and into voting booths.
the wesson
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Isn’t there this thing where people are more willing to work at jobs if they get more pay or more benefits?
NR
@TenguPhule: Then put your ideas out there. Add them to the mix. Unlike you, I’m not hostile to other people’s ideas and am willing to hear them out.
Fair Economist
@Kay: Anything more recent that 1992? Something about ’90s policies was actually quite good, even if exactly what it is isn’t clear.
Major Major Major Major
@ruemara: what have Obama and Holder been up to lately? I know Obama was on a break but isn’t this a thing of theirs?
James Powell
@kindness:
You see, that’s you and it’s everybody else on this blog, but to paraphrase Adlai Stevenson, we need a majority.
Hard to believe that with all that’s at stake, with all the talent available to work on it, Democrats haven’t come up with any unifying narrative. My take is that they can’t because they won’t. They choose not to embrace & promote a narrative that explicitly includes ideas like promoting equal rights & a culture that values everyone, fighting economic inequality, etc. because a narrative like that would include black people and offend the suburban white people that the Democrats have been chasing after since 1980.
Of all the lessons we hope Democrats learned from 2016 the most important should be to stop chasing those voters. If they were are so wedded to the Republicans that they will support Trump, then they can’t be won by a campaign.
Ladyraxterinok
As a 77yo white woman, I just want to say: WHY do democrats have such a knack for saying stupid stuff. We need to be organizing vs Trump and all his supporters and enablers. I lnow we have to work out things together, but at 1st glance this sounds a bit like validating the claim of WWC’s ‘economic anxiety.’ (I haven’t read thru the comments and a – presumably – much more nuanced discussion.
PJ
@ruemara: People can do both things. Ending voter suppression won’t win elections if you don’t motivate enough people to vote.
TenguPhule
@the wesson:
That’s crazy talk right there. Only rich folks need positive reinforcement to work.
The not-rich must be punished to encourage them to work harder. Its the only way for them to get those lazy bastards to do their jobs! //
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
We have. They refuse to listen
TenguPhule
@Ladyraxterinok:
They think too much about the obvious. Sometimes simple really is best.
Ladyraxterinok
As a 77yo white woman, I just want to say: WHY do democrats have such a knack for saying stupid stuff. We need to be organizing vs Trump and all his supporters and enablers. I lnow we have to work out things together, but at 1st glance this sounds a bit like validating the claim of WWC’s ‘economic anxiety.’ (I haven’t read thru the comments and a – presumably – much more nuanced discussion.
@ruemara: YES YES YES
TenguPhule
@James Powell:
Hillary Clinton did run on this.
It didn’t end well.
rikyrah
@Amaranthine RBG:
We did beat him – by 3 million votes.
ruemara
@Major Major Major Major: There are several groups, but there’s work that needs to be done now. I am not ok with where’s Obama & Holder. Where’s the grass roots, blogosphere response to voter suppression? Oh, here and there arguing about slogans.
@PJ: Fuck off if you can’t handle the fact that people were motivated to vote and were dropped off rolls. You seem to think that suppression exists where people don’t want to vote.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Smartass, but true, Kay.
sharl
From Betty’s O.P.
I asked here last night whether Schumer was sincere in this effort, or was it more a matter of political expediency. I remain uncertain.
On the topic of getting monopolies and mergers under control, I have been surprised at the positive reception from normally skeptical people like Matt Stoller, who I know has few fans in these parts, and whose criticisms of Dems can sometimes enter the territory of hostile assholery (fwiw, I think he’s mellowed over where he was 10 years ago!). Stoller exited from straight electoral politics work a few years ago, and now specializes in the problems of corporate monopolies and corporate consolidation.
For people interested in getting into the weeds of this topic, Stoller collected links to articles by him and his colleagues at New America’s Open Markets program; that collection is here.
A (usually) kinder, gentler specialist in this general area is David Dayen, a freelancer who has written quite a bit for different media outlets. Dayen and Stoller don’t overlap completely, but there is quite a bit of similarity in what they cover.
mike in dc
1. Raising minimum wage–great, helps about a third of working Americans.
2. Lowering costs–ok
3. Skills training–fine as far as it goes
A couple further things that would really help:
4. (Re-)Strengthening unions
5. Massive federal/state job creation program ala New Deal
TenguPhule
@ruemara:
You forget who these fascists are getting to count the votes.
You’ve almost reached enlightenment, but you’re not quite all the way there yet.
rikyrah
@ruemara:
I need chocolate after reading that.
Bless you.
ruemara
@TenguPhule: Dude. I don’t need you telling me squat about enlightenment.
Major Major Major Major
@James Powell:
Were we watching different conventions last year?
Major Major Major Major
@ruemara:
That’s not what I was trying to say, I was asking because I wanted to know the information and thought you might know.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
No, I get it — Supreme Court decisions make no difference in our society. That’s why you didn’t give a shit that Trump was going to be able to appoint the Republican wet dream justices.
Don’t worry, I’m sure you’ll be here for years to come telling us that Goresuch’s decisions don’t really matter because the Supreme Court is meaningless and doesn’t affect anything in anyone’s daily life.
TenguPhule
@ruemara: If I were a Republican with no ethics and power, I wouldn’t stop at just interfering at the voter’s level. The whole voting chain is only as strong as its weakest link and its clear that the GOP is testing all of them to see which gives out first.
Gravenstone
@smintheus: I’d love subscription info on your newsletter…
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
I understand Trump looks and sounds like a woman after too much beer. Or so I’ve heard.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Laura:
Promising to lower the retirement age for full SS to 62.5 would free up a lot of jobs and maybe get old white people self-interested in Dems.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
I don’t think these guys watched the convention at all. The WHOLE GODDAMNED THING was about giving everyone a platform. Mothers of murdered children. Transgender people. And, yes, even white working-class dudes.
But the narrative was set by The Berniebros, so people didn’t bother to watch for themselves.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Mnemosyne:
I don’t think I saw one interview with a Clinton voter – the media covered the disgruntled attendees with taped mouths and Peter Pan hats at the convention, and interviewed Republicans on the talking heads panels, but Clinton didn’t have a message or some such shit.
toine
Broken Promises. Every Dem should run an add featuring a campaign promise Trump has broken. There are so many to choose from and most would reinforce Dem messaging…
rikyrah
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Also, lowering Medicare to age 55 would help too.
Bard the Grim
@Mary: Yeah, I get a thou or two benefit as well, an advantage I’d happily trade to see Social Security fixed for everyone.
Sebastian
“A Better Deal” is pretty good as a slogan. Hard to argue against.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@rikyrah:
Basically this is what the ACA would have provided if it weren’t for Joe Lieberman.
Amaranthine RBG
@rikyrah:
Great! Why don’t you focus on running up the popular vote in 2016 while the grown-ups worry about the electoral votes.
Ithink
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Hey bro! Fellow college student going to UT Arlington down in Texas (thought I was the only young’un in his 20’s around these parts but I lobe most all the peeps anyways regardless of age or any other immutable characteristic).
Love your commentary here too and was curious to ask what college you went to? I’m trying to get as many college-bound young Americans of the progressive/non-affiliated variety to get together vis-a-vis social media & whatever other means on how to get and become a political powerhouse of a voting coalition while the rest of life in Trump’s America rages on, but I’m having patchy luck this far ?!
TenguPhule
@rikyrah: A vote winner if we can get past the whole “deficits deficits deficits!” bullshit. You’d think after Bush II they’d shut up about that already.
AMinNC
Democrats want affordable healthcare for all Americans; Republicans want to protect the profits of the insurance companies.
Democrats want higher wages for the working and middle class; Republicans want more visas for foreign workers and tax cuts for billionaires.
Democrats want equal rights for all; Republicans want the government in your bedroom, your doctor’s office, and your uterus.
Democrats want to build roads, bridges, and broadband internet access to serve all areas of our country; Republicans want more toll roads and think the cable companies’ profits are more important than citizens’ access to the internet.
Democrats want the best public schools and universities in the world; Republicans cut education spending and allow for-profit diploma mills to rip off students AND taxpayers.
Democrats want us to own the future of green energy jobs AND let us live on a healthier planet; Republicans want China and Germany to eat our lunch in green jobs, and all of us to suffer from a polluted world.
Democrats want to end the costly and ineffective war on drugs; Republicans want to put more of us in prison for smoking a joint or becoming addicted to pain killers after an injury.
Democrats want big money out of politics; Republicans have fought EVERY attempt to stop billionaires from buying our elections.
Democrats want to protect our fundamental right to vote and help citizens participate in our representative democracy; Republicans suppress the vote and try to limit our freedoms.
Democrats are for us all; Republicans are for the aristocracy.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
Why am I not surprised to see yet another lie from you?
Amaranthine RBG
@AMinNC:
Sounds pretty coherent to me.
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: What ideas of yours have the Democratic party refused to listen to?
Major Major Major Major
God damn it people stop feeding the trolls
germy
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Kay:
There isn’t a training problem or a skills gap problem.
There’s a rentier problem, in that zombie labor (aka capital) is raking the entirety of the benefits (plus a bit) of all the increased productivity across all economic sectors, and is so busy chasing share value by merging and acquiring that none of the benefits are added to monetary velocity by way of dividends.
In this environment, the only Keynesian thought to the commons has been to sell them off for peanuts and/or make a fuckton of dodgy, bubble inflating loans available label to the proles. This should explain the rush to gut regs.
WASF
TenguPhule
@germy: Trump apparently thinks Goodfellas was an instruction manual.
TriassicSands
@Betty Cracker:
Betty, I’m going disconnect from the Internet for a few hours at least. I just read an article and saw part of a video that have me in shock and utter despair. A young woman live streams driving her car recklessly, while under the influence of alcohol, loses control, kills her sister and goes right back to live streaming. I’m afraid this is yet another example of what is happening in this country — the creation of a population much too stupid to support a free and open society. Sure, she’s only one person, but she’s got lots of company, as evidenced by our current president, and mountains of daily reminders.
So, no, I won’t be watching Kushner display his stupidity righr now. I need a break.
Yutsano
@NR: End voter suppression. Fight against this non-existent “voter fraud” everywhere. Make sure every eligible voter can vote. Start there. You can have every idea in the world but until people can actually use their voices it’s pointless.
Chris
Fuck it, I’m good with it. I don’t have a problem with Democrats saying that the party needs to go further left. By and large that was true even in the glory days of the New Deal coalition. I only mind when it’s being usef as a pretext to fuck the party, which isn’t the case here.
Stan
@Kay: Bingo! training matters ONLY to the extent that it leads to a good-paying job.
Brachiator
We are screwed. The Republicans are venal fools in love with a fantasy of free market capitalism. But this “left of center” outline is just as vacuous. I agree that job training might be little more than a band-aid, but I don’t see how massive tax hikes by themselves addresses wealth inequality. Are we talking about a universal basic income, or pet projects that do little for the majority of Americans (and I’m not even convinced that a UBI is the answer).
Mnemosyne
@NR:
You think that Supreme Court decisions are consequence free and make no difference. You’ve said over and over again that you don’t think Citizens United or the gutting of the VRA had any influence on any election since 2010. Where is the “lie,” exactly?
rikyrah
Was the Mayflower Hotel Event Really Jared Kushner’s Idea?
by Martin Longman
July 24, 2017 12:47 PM
I dutifully sat down this morning and read Jared Kushner’s prepared statement for Congress. I was impressed with the quality and clarity of his defense. He has some good lawyers and I believe he is following their advice unlike his father-in-law. However, there are still some troubling things to discuss.
One of them involves a now infamous speech that Donald Trump gave at the Mayflower Hotel in April 2016. From Kushner’s statement we learn the surprising fact that he’s taking full responsibility for the idea behind doing that speech, as well as much of the organizing work that went into it. Here’s the relevant part in its full context:
What makes this so interesting is that everyone in Washington DC who closely follows the Russians’ lobbying efforts assumed that the idea behind it came from Paul Manafort.
gratuitous
Looking over the responses, I guess I’ve been told: There’s no reason to reach any more voters, to raise their awareness even one iota, or even try. Our die is cast and there’s no use even thinking about changing it. A stupid person’s vote shouldn’t even count, but maybe we can discourage them from voting. If we have to. I guess.
And I had hopes. Not high ones, mind you, but hopes nonetheless.
rikyrah
Team Trump Uses Access Hollywood Tape as a Loyalty Test
by Martin Longman
July 24, 2017 1:50 PM
The Washington Examiner has a lengthy profile of House Freedom Caucus leader Rep. Mark Meadows of North Carolina. The piece is interesting on several levels, but there’s one thing in there that I’d like to highlight:
Now, that’s an interesting test.
Major Major Major Major
@gratuitous: I strongly advise you not to base your emotions on troll-filled balloon juice comment threads. Or troll free ones for that matter.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR: Was referring to Republicans and their voters not listening
Mnemosyne
@gratuitous:
I have no problem with anything in the op-ed, or in Pelosi’s that covers the same ground. I’m just skeptical that it’s going to make much difference since the Berniebros are already rushing out of the woodwork to piss on it.
TenguPhule
@rikyrah: Now what other regimes had loyalty tests?
Gravenstone
@Fair Economist: You perhaps noticed that she’s pulling examples from multiple decades to show the general argument has been around on the Dem side a LONG TIME?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@catclub:
And given his deep knowledge of and experience with OSHA proceedings, Trump will eventually name him to head that agency…
germy
@Mnemosyne: I wish Bernie would step up and take credit for it. Maybe that would stop some of the pissing?
Gravenstone
@TenguPhule: Fuck off, you condescending waste of skin.
Aleta
Some bros talk about ‘organizing labor’ but haven’t ever worked a blue collar job; think that summer housepainting gig, or old-fashioned carrying shingles up the ladder, sort of counted b/c they drank beer with lifers after. They felt liked, and that’s a qualification in their minds. The occasional blue collar worker in their family was thought of as the n’er do well because they weren’t “college material.”
Working the different jobs on a workroom floor takes a few years. You don’t actually learn the whole of it unless you work really hard.
Some bros aren’t even working hard at learning the lower jobs in politics. They think they don’t need to do all that stuff, because their special skill is standing in front for the people to listen.
Apology for harsh generalization. It’s not true about all by any means.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
You said “you didn’t give a shit that Trump was going to be able to appoint the Republican wet dream justices.” That was a lie.
Stop lying.
rikyrah
Powerful: “having washed the blood off of my fellow servicemen’s hands, they didn’t die for us to not take care of the ones that are left” https://t.co/ziFDVKHTGy
— Topher Spiro (@TopherSpiro) July 24, 2017
She served in the @USAirForce for 10 years and now is begging @SenDeanHeller to do his duty to protect the lives of her fellow Americans. pic.twitter.com/63zlhqgblO
— MoveOn.org (@MoveOn) July 24, 2017
germy
Sounds good to me.
NR
@Yutsano: I can and do support all of that.
But by itself, it will not be enough to win.
Sab
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I live in your Congressional district.
We have a pretty good welding school. You go through it, get certified, and then all the local employers want you to sign a non-compete for an entry level job. So if the job doesn’t work out you have to leave the area in order to use your new welding certification. That’s why they can’t find entry level people.
My sister lives in Massachusetts. They have laws there that prohibit employers from making low level employees sign non-compete agreements.
rikyrah
Our daily call scripts for AK, AR, AZ, CO, LA, ME, NV, OH, PA, WV are up. Use them for these critical Senators. https://t.co/3vSWdYoPlb
— Indivisible Guide (@IndivisibleTeam) July 24, 2017
catclub
That is a great name for a Potash company!
VeniceRiley
I wanted “Make government boring again.” for a slogan. Because I really, truly long for the day I can ignore all of this for spans longer than a week, month, or even a day.
rikyrah
in addition to call can text ‘resist’ to 504-09 to send a fax
It’s a bot that sets it all up
You can type what you want to say to ur senator
— Susan H PhD (@Sisterwriter) July 24, 2017
TenguPhule
@Gravenstone: Was any part of what I said about a Republican with no ethics and lots of power wrong?
rikyrah
ALL our #KillTheBill resources (scripts, explainers, and more) in one place. https://t.co/ZUnJWTVBWH
— Indivisible Guide (@IndivisibleTeam) July 24, 2017
Reply
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Well most of them won’t, it’s true. But even if 80% of their votes aren’t reachable, swinging the other 20% would result in a landslide victory.
TenguPhule
@VeniceRiley:
I could get behind that one.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR: It’s not a lie. It’s an assertion with at least some basis. All you really ever do here is bitch and never contribute any ideas
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@PJ: No, I’m not saying a better slogan will win voters we aren’t going to get. But a story, a theme, can get our own people to turn out more reliably. A lot of people need to be connected, to feel connected, before they get involved. People are busy. They have lots of things going on in their lives. Beyond that, Republicans have spent a lot of time and done a lot of work to convince people that system is irreparably rigged against them. To overcome that, Democrats have to connect with voters viscerally, emotionally.
Yes, it would be great if people didn’t need that, if an intellectual connection were enough. And for some people, it is. There are a lot of others who need more, though. A theme is more than a slogan. A theme, or what I’ve been calling a story, is a way to wrap up a whole slew of positions, policies and beliefs in one neat package. It’s a way to tie everything together. It’s an answer, for people who don’t follow politics too carefully, to the question, “What do these people believe? What do they want to do? Why should I vote for these guys? Republicans get this. We need to get it, too.
rikyrah
One NYT reader responds to Jared Kushner’s remarks https://t.co/alDFkmSzxp pic.twitter.com/oGfoLH3m5W
— The New York Times (@nytimes) July 24, 2017
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
Then somebody ought to run a campaign to prove it. Win an election and others will follow
ruemara
Jesu. Back to what’s comforting, i suppose. The Democratic party and funds need to be directed at voters who want to vote. That means more voices than just mine and just about 3 orgs focused on telling them to stop “messaging” and start working in concert to overtake voter suppression tactics. The ideas are already there. If people are sitting things out until you have the right siren song, they’re a lost cause and a waste of resources. We need to organize around this now. But, yeah, slogans, not progressive enough, outreach to morons, kumbaya.
TenguPhule
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Its simpler and easier to get them angry at something and convince them to use their vote to strike back at that enemy. More reliable too.
The power of rage is useful, properly directed.
Humdog
@AMinNC: this is very good and needs more eyeballs. Only trouble is it is too long all at once, but it could be broken into parts, like weekly topics, and drummed into heads at every media opportunity for the next 18 months and beyond!
Mnemosyne
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
We STILL never hear from Hillary voters. Not one word. We continue to be invisible while the MSM and Berniebros wring their hands about the sainted White Working Class voters who brought this disaster on us in the first place.
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: No, it’s a complete lie. I spoke out against the Gorsuch appointment and in support of the Democratic filibuster against it.
gvg
Kay, a few years ago you had a lot to say about the benefits of job training and apprenticeships, why weren’t Dems pushing that and not everyone was happy with college and it was wrong that employers didn’t think they needed to pay for training anymore etc. Why are you so mad that some Dems are now (again) saying we need to do some of this? You seem so mad and I don’t get it. Really I agreed with you before.
One op ed isn’t going to be a whole strategy to get the government back. It will take a lot of talk, writing, speeches, a lot of plans. Nobody can say it all in one op ed because life is BIG. We can’t let the seeking of perfect be the enemy of acting. We have to start in order to win.
Some of the messages for some of the democratic voters won’t be aimed at me nor make any sense to me. that doesn’t mean they might not be important to someone else. I think we are all so terrified of losing another election that we are worrying about every flaw we imagine.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
One of these is not like the others
Betty Cracker
@rikyrah: Kushner has the most annoying fucking voice. No wonder he almost never makes public remarks.
Mnemosyne
@Aleta:
Fixed that for you. ?
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I spoke out against the Gorsuch appointment and in support of the Democratic filibuster against it.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
You think that Supreme Court decisions don’t matter but cared that Trump got to appoint a Tea Party hack?
Pull the other one, bro.
mike in dc
@Betty Cracker: It’s the voice of the pimply teenage boy on the Simpsons, the one whose voice keeps breaking due to puberty.
Laura
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Promising to lower the retirement age for full SS to 62.5 would free up a lot of jobs and maybe get old white people self-interested in Dems.
And increase the benefit AND get rid of the income cap to pay for it.
I work for a Union and my Members are blue collar skilled workers. The toll their jobs take on their bodies is unbelievable -even those that try to maintain good health can’t keep up. One is hoping that the employer doesn’t find out he’s got blood clots, another has permanent damage after his garbage truck dropped 3 feet into a sinkhole because the underground infrastructure is out dated, a guy had his back broken when a section of metal covering underground work fell on him. He’s out on workers comp and was released by his employer while on probation. Several have come to work and hung or shot themselves in the shop and discovered by their coworkers.
No job, no benefits, unable to work, unable to continue his medical care and treatment. His wife is blind with panic.
I could go on. Older workers would retire in droves if it were an option.
These, mostly, men live an average of 2.5 years in retirement and work an average of 35 years, all paying into retirement, ss, deferred comp, but now, no retiree healthcare, and so try desperately to hang on until 65.
Younger workers are begging for these jobs.
There has got to be another way.
I’m fine with rich fuckers paying for a New New Deal.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
I have a feeling this was not what Trump meant when he was urging servicemembers to contact their congressmembers. Good for her.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Really, the guy who insists that Wisconsin voters were not suppressed by the thousands now claims that he gives a shit about voter suppression?
You really need to work harder to keep your stories straight, comrade.
germy
@mike in dc:
Except the pimply kid on the Simpsons is always working a low-wage service job. The kid with the same voice who just testified not under oath had the whole store handed to him.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
You know what I think is funny? The fact you never respond to comments like mine at #268. I wonder why that is? Do I have to bend the knee?
Mnemosyne
@Laura:
Reagan changed the retirement age back in the 1980s. I’m 48 and won’t get to retire until I’m 67 at a minimum.
It’s terrible Republican policies all the way down for 30+ years, and yet a majority of my fellow white people just keep voting for them.
Barbara
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Bitching and not contributing ideas seems like a way of life for too many people. Seriously, when I started reading DK today (big mistake) I am reminded that one reason why we lose so often is because there are too many people willing to make the better the enemy of the best. Plus, even when whining is justified it almost never wins people over.
AMinNC
@Humdog: Yep, definitely too much all at once, but each snippet could, as you point out, be turned into a single ad, yard sign, etc, that could work together to build a coherent overall theme.
germy
@Mnemosyne: What bugs me are the smug “experts” I see who make the argument that life expectancy has gone up, therefore the retirement age should go up. They have the nerve to say the average life expectancy in 1932 was fifty-eight or so. Bullshit. The average was because of infant mortality. People lived to ripe old ages before Social Security. They just had to be supported by their children.
They really want us to believe the average person dropped dead in their fifties back then.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
I didn’t say that either. Do you ever do anything but lie?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne:
Obviously because no one voted for her. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Major Major Major Major
@germy: Life expectancy at birth is COMPLETELY useless regarding what most people end up using it for. Ugh.
One of my friends explained it as “because this includes infant mortality, early childhood diseases, etc., it’s like saying the average height is/was 4’1″.”
NR
@Mnemosyne: I’ve consistently said I oppose voter suppression and support efforts to fight it.
I’m curious – do you ever feel bad about all the lying you do? I think most people would begin to feel bad about it at some point.
Or maybe you’re just like Donald Trump, and don’t care about lying at all?
Mnemosyne
@NR:
How many times have you said that Citizens United and Shelby County made no difference and that electoral losses since 2010 are solely the fault of the Democratic Party?
Sorry, but if you really believe that the Democrats are at fault for those losses since 2010, that means by definition that you think Citizens United and Shelby County made no difference.
The only liar here is you, and you appear to be lying to yourself.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
You’re such a little fucking coward. I knew you’d never answer me about hard work about winning elections. You and the rest of the Dirtbag Left expect to have the entire world handed to you on a silverplatter without lifting a finger to lead by example to get others on board with you. And when your demands are predictably unmet, you throw temper tantrums and spew bullshit about the rest of us having to “bend the knee”. Fuck you and the ass you rode in here on
Mnemosyne
@NR:
But you think it’s imaginary and doesn’t make any difference in elections. As far as you’re concerned, being worried about voter suppression is like being worried that unicorns are going to poop in your front yard.
Why even claim to be concerned about an issue that you’ve said over and over again didn’t make any difference?
Mnemosyne
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Hey, that’s what Trump keeps claiming. All us Hillary voters in CA don’t exist, we’re just fraudulent votes.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Barbara: It’s okay to complain a little if it’s true, but there needs to be suggestions for improvements too. NR never really does that
germy
@Major Major Major Major:
Exactly. And in this case, they’re using it to guilt people into thinking retirement at age 62 is “too young” because when Social Security was first implemented in the 1930s, everyone died of old age at 63. And “now everyone lives to be 100” or whatever number they toss out.
geg6
@gratuitous:
If the voters you are talking about are the so-called “white working class voters” who are the main fetish of the media and, apparently, the Democratic leadership, then yes, fuck them. I don’t give a damn about them and I don’t support spending any effort, time or money on trying to woo them.
Now, if you’re talking about young people, people of color (especially females) and single women? I’ll meet you on the front lines.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne: Assuming NR is for real, they’re the kinda person who would still be complaining about the Sellout Corporatist Dems while being thrown out the back of C-130 over the Gulf of Mexico, 5000 feet up
NR
@Mnemosyne: I genuinely don’t understand the world you live in, where a political party can go from controlling the White House, both houses of Congress, and a majority of state legislatures, to having lost the White House, both houses of Congress, and 1,000 legislative seats nationwide…. And somehow, it is absolutely, completely, 100% not the fault of that party.
There must be unicorns and rainbows in that fantasy world of yours.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne:
Just a creation of those folk in Hollywierd.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: This is because NR is a gloom troll. Ignore it.
Barbara
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Sure, of course, reasoned analysis and all that, but reactionary whining — “he didn’t talk about X!” “Hillary already said that!” and so on gets us nowhere. It’s as much about style as substance. Too often, it simply comes across as a glass half empty perspective on anything and everything. “This is a good start” versus “this didn’t address my pet concern.” Subtle, but real.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Oh, I agree.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
Because people being denied their constitutional right to vote is wrong. This concludes today’s edition of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
And until I see hard data that indicates voter suppression swung the results of the election, I will continue to believe it didn’t. Because that’s how mature adults operate. We form opinions based on data.
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Actually I’ve never said anything like that, but you do you, bro.
Another Scott
@Smiling Mortician: Nancy’s version is better, but they’re both pretty good.
Follow through is going to tell the tale. Is she and Chuck willing to go on the Sunday shows for the next 15 months to sell it? Are they willing to go around the Sunday shows if they can’t get time there?
As others have said, Hillary had great plans to address these issues and more. The press didn’t cover them. We need to make sure that people know about these plans and not let them get buried under E-Mails and who knows what else…
Cheers,
Scott.
TenguPhule
@NR:
Well the thing about Russians, voter suppression and a treasonous Republican party is that they all worked together with a truly ignorant public to lead us to this moment.
All the messaging in the world can’t fix terminal stupidity. We must now let natural selection weed out the politically unfit.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
That’s because I live in the real world where the Mercers and Kochs started purchasing politicians in 2010.
You live in a fantasy world where Citizens United and voter suppression never happened, or at least never happened in large enough numbers to matter.
The Republicans are standing next to a burnt-out building with a book of matches in their hands, and you’re demanding that the Democrats admit that the Democrats were the ones who used their lighter to set the fire. Only the Democrats never had a lighter at all.
NR
@TenguPhule: Like I said: Poor establishment Democrats just can’t catch a break, though absolutely no fault of their own.
Barbara
@NR: What two things — just two — would you have done differently in any of the following elections years: 2010, 2014 or 2016? Then, explain with examples why you believe those things would have led to a different outcome. Here is my own very short summary of why I believe 2010 was, in particular, a bad year:
1. Too many Democrats have bought into the idea that that only election that matters is the presidential. Obama’s sheer personal charisma and power amplified that view, and it is fundamentally wrong. Obama himself did not do enough to empower the party, and this is my main criticism of him. His zeal to avoid what has essentially become a never ending campaign cycle meant that he essentially disarmed the party at a crucial time just as Republicans were gearing up like never before in their history.
2. 2010 was particularly bad because it generated the power dynamics that led to gerrymandering, which made all successive elections through the next redistricting more challenging at both a state and federal level. This actually explains a lot of state level losses, although Citizens United explains others as well, as does voter suppression. These are cumulative effects. However, 2006 and 2008 were also outlier years, and we have to accept that to some extent.
3. What would have reversed that in addition to what I alluded to in number 1? A few thoughts:
a. An ACA that delivered immediate real time benefits even if small that could have been used by candidates to show actual results. Other similar, immediate benefits, such as including first mortgages in bankruptcy relief, doing more to reform student loans.
b. Greater courage and conviction among Democratic candidates. People rarely win by running away.
I don’t expect a response. That’s not your style. Your style is to complain and complain and criticize and criticize and then run away. The sort of style that probably hasn’t won a single election in the history of elections.
TenguPhule
@NR: Democrats were trying to fight the last war with gentlemen rules. There are no rules now, not anymore.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
Don’t fucking call me Bro, and don’t just focus on which of my arguments you feel are the easiest to knock down. You deliberately ignored what I said at #268 because you’re, in the words of Biff Lowman, a phony little fake
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Major Major Major Major:
Coding is an area were very specific, subsidized training would definitely be beneficial. I have heard firms say they aren’t willing to spend a year training a CS grad to be an Oracle or SAP developer, when they can hire a contractor from India on an H1B visa.
NR
@Barbara: The cake in the 2010 election was baked long before the election itself. So the different things would have to have been done before then. The two things I would have done differently in 2009 and 2010 are:
1. Pass a stimulus that actually would have been adequate to rally the economy. This means one that was about twice as big as what Obama proposed, without any of it wasted on stimulus-useless tax cuts.
2. At the very least, pass a version of the ACA that had a public option, which 70% of the country wanted.
Those two things alone might have been enough to stave off the 2010 electoral disaster.
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: If you don’t want me to knock down your arguments, don’t make false arguments in the first place.
And as to #268, I hope someone will run such a campaign.
Barbara
@NR: Okay. That’s fair enough. The first one might have been feasible (this was Obama being too nice). The second one wasn’t. You have to believe me. I follow this stuff professionally. That wasn’t in the cards. I also think it would have been too forward looking to really be useful for 2010, but it would have been easier to explain. The immediate benefits would have been a feasible alternative, and that wasn’t even tried.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Hey, I’m sure it’s like you say. A political party lost 1,000 legislative seats through absolutely no fault of its own. It was all due to circumstances completely outside of its control. There we go.
TenguPhule
@NR:
Obviously you were not paying attention last time.
WE DID NOT HAVE THE FUCKING VOTES FOR EITHER ONE.
What the fuck did you think McConnell and the Blue Dogs were doing back then? Cooperating?
NR
@Barbara:
I believe you, but you realize that this is just another way of saying that Democrats wouldn’t vote for it, right? Which means they dug their own graves for 2010.
Your point about the immediate benefits is a good one, but the public option was incredibly popular, and the Democrats refusing to pass it because the insurance companies didn’t want it was not a good look for them, to say the least.
catclub
@Mnemosyne:
Reagan was president in 85-86, but I bet there was a big bipartisan commision to do that, so neither party could seriously blame the other for cutting SS benefits.
NR
@TenguPhule: The Democrats held the majority in both houses of Congress, so saying “we didn’t have the votes” is just another way of saying “Democrats wouldn’t vote for it.”
jl
I think the Democrats need to change course and encourage most people in the country to look at them in a different way. I don’t like it at all (in fact it is very concerning to me as a Dem), but exposure to Trump in office has not done anything in terms of popular perception for either the Democratic Party or HRC. Democratic Party ID is not going up, Democratic approval has dropped, Hillary Clinton’s approval is barely above Trump’s.
Do I think it’s ‘fair’? No. But life and politics are not always ‘fair’ and we have to deal the actual perception most people have of he Democrats.
Most people view both major parties as failures right now. Have to convince people the Democrats will not continue to fail in the eyes of most of the public. So, good for Schumer for trying.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
The point is that is that it was mostly the fault of voter suppression tactics and stupid cowardly voters who are going to get what they deserve when this whole thing comes crashing down
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
Some democrats, Blue Dogs, wouldn’t. And Citizens United and everything else started to have negative effects after 2010
Barbara
@NR: Joseph Fucking Lieberman is not really a Democrat. I think it’s too funny that insurance companies are now exploring how to move a lot of their operations out of Connecticut. Here is the other thing about the public option that a lot of people don’t understand. It wasn’t all Democratic politicians trying to placate insurance companies. It was Democratic politicians trying to divide and conquer, and avoid having both insurers and providers dead set against reform. That’s what sank the Clintons in 1994. A public option would most likely convert a lot of people into Medicare rates. I don’t think that’s horrible, but hospitals do. So there was a deeper force at work — a lot of reps get heat from providers in their states and districts, and they needed to avoid opposition from that constituency. Providers do a good job of keeping their heads low when insurers are held up as a force for evil. It’s not nearly that simple.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@jl:
Who the fuck cares about Hillary Clinton’s approval? She is never running for anything.
TenguPhule
@NR:
We didn’t have the votes because our majority was so thin that ANY defections combined with permanent Republican Filibuster made it impossible to pass anything. This wasn’t rocket science and dismissing it as “saying “Democrats wouldn’t vote for it.” is the sign of a lazy idiot who doesn’t bother to learn about how our fucking government actually worked.
So every fucking Blue Dog Senator was a kingmaker and we had to fucking cater to every single one of them and Lieberman to get anything passed.
But facts are stubborn things.
Barbara
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Not only that, but to the extent that many Trump voters who might be disenchanted with Trump defend their vote, it’s usually by maintaining the pretense that Clinton was worse.
TenguPhule
@NR:
Look you moron (and yes, at this point you fully qualify for that label) we couldn’t get a public option because Lieberman and enough Blue Dogs would not vote for it and THEIR VOTES LEFT US SHORT OF A MAJORITY TO PASS IT.
jl
@?BillinGlendaleCA: I think it is a signal that if the Dems try to re-run the Hillary Clinton 2016 approach in the future, they will get similarly disappointing results. Note that I typed ‘ the Hillary Clinton 2016 approach’ not Hillary Clinton herself.
Hillary Clinton herself has shown that she has the ability to change public perception. I don’t want her to run again, but I do think that if she were to run, and changed her political platform and message, she could do much better than before.
BTW, I also saw polling that showed more people think the Democrats are just against Trump, rather than actually standing for better policies than the GOP, but I can’t find it now to check the numbers.
AMinNC
@NR: I’ve avoided responding to you, but I just have to step in here to ask you how IN THE ACTUAL REAL WORLD could either of the things you say you would have done, actually passed Congress in 2009/2010? I too wish we could have progressive Democratic senators from Nebraska or Louisiana, but that is not real life. So in the real world we got the ACA, warts and all, and are fighting tooth and nail to preserve it and improve it. In the real world we got a stimulus that stopped a complete financial collapse but couldn’t pass one that helped the economy enough to ultimately counteract the right-wing propaganda machine operating as a nonstop puke funnel of lies – coupled with a non-stop leftist attack that DEMS ARE NEOLIBERAL SELLOUTS so vote for the 3rd party candidate and assure Republican victory. I understand your frustration with incrementalism, but generally incrementalism is the primary way that actual progress occurs.
NR
@TenguPhule:
Or, you know, the Democrats could have done away with the filibuster at any time with a simple majority vote.
But you know, facts are stubborn things.
Captain C
@Major Major Major Major:
We speak for the people, all of the people, and only we do so!* I can’t remember the last time I was north of 14th Street, everyone who lives above it (or really, anywhere but lower Manhattan**) is an asshole who doesn’t count!
*Do the people know this? Did they vote on it? Better not to speculate.
**Not valid after, oh, no later than the start of Rudy G’s term. Now they probably live in “East Williamsburg” (known to its long-term inhabitants as Bushwick).
TenguPhule
@NR:
And we didn’t have enough votes for THAT either.
Perhaps you should retake your math classes since you can’t seem to add.
NR
@AMinNC: But here’s the thing: when people are left seeing their communities wither and die, seeing their children turn to heroin or meth out of despair because they have no future, they don’t care that this is all the Democrats thought they could do “in the actual real world.” All they know is that the Democrats were in charge and they didn’t solve the problems they were facing.
People want actual results that make their lives better. All I’m hearing from you guys is excuses. “We didn’t have the votes.” Blah, blah, blah. It’s just noise.
And if people decide to give Democrats another chance, and they just deliver more excuses, the same thing will happen again. You need to come up with something better.
Captain C
@Mnemosyne:
I think they want to tell everyone else what to do, as you said, and then have them(everyone else) take blame when their (Bros) ill-thought out and superficial instructions prove disastrous.
sheila in nc
@Barbara:
Re the first one — a stimulus that would have been big enough to help — Obama tried but was stymied by all the panic about how big the deficit was as a percent of GDP. I remember the discussions well. Obama knew very well that more was needed, but there was a firehose of difficult press on top of a whole lot of people in this country not understanding how national finance is not the same as your kitchen table budget. Bottom line, I don’t believe that was ever feasible either.
And the Great Recession needs to be considered when factoring in the feasibility of the public option when all these things were being discussed in 2009. On top of huge and rising unemployment, plus the uncertainty of remaking a large segment of the economy, you’re going to throw everyone currently employed by an insurance agency out of work? I don’t think so.
Captain C
@kindness:
I think I see your problem here.
NR
@TenguPhule:
Like I said: when Democrats are in the majority, saying “we didn’t have the votes” is just another way of saying “Democrats wouldn’t vote for it.”
I have to say, though, I’m starting to like “we didn’t have the votes.” It’s a great use of passive voice to obscure responsibility. Right up there with “mistakes were made.”
TenguPhule
@NR:
Because the Republicans fought tooth and nail to stop any help from arriving.
But you knew this already.
And if they didn’t bother to learn. Well, ignorance is gonna have fatal consequences.
TenguPhule
@NR:
Fine, NR. You name the 51 Democratic Senators in 2009 who were gonna vote for an overturn of the fillibuster.
Go ahead, I can wait.
NR
@TenguPhule: You don’t get to blame the other party when you control both houses of Congress and the White House.
Or do you believe Trump when he blames the Democrats for things not getting done in Washington?
NR
@TenguPhule: Way to completely miss the point.
I didn’t say the votes were there, I said the only reason they weren’t was because Democrats wouldn’t vote for it.
SG
@Cheryl Rofer:
I’d argue that the greater part of Republican success is due to the specifics of their messaging. It certainly isn’t their fabulous policies or delivering on their economic promises. They almost always hit that sweet spot where simple language level, catchy sloganeering and emotional appeal come together. Simply put, they know how to frame their campaigns in ready-to-print bumper stickers.
It is not good enough for Democrats to merely “do no harm.” Mediocre, haphazard and forgettable messaging loses votes by failing to inspire turnout and by allowing Republicans to dominate the political conversation. It is political malpractice.
I want to see Democrats develop a positive message that inspires and excites voters. I want them to use the same rules of rhetoric that Gingrich deployed against us. I want to see message discipline enforced. That doesn’t mean parroting the same phrase on all the Sabbath gasbag shows, but developing a menu of creative talking points that Dems use whenever they’re in public, without fail. No more herding cats.
Why the hell would I want to set the bar so low for Dem leadership that how they talk to voters is a second-tier concern? Of course, they damn well better mean what they say and deliver when they return to power.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
Why don’t you come up with something you better you little fucking shit, if you’re so perfect and smart. I wish you get fucking banned
Barbara
@sheila in nc: At the time, I thought that the ACA was the best they could have done. What has really thrown a wrench into things was the Medicaid Expansion Supreme Court debacle. ACA works pretty well for states that have expanded, and the Medicaid component of it protects people who need the most help. It’s a cancer on the soul of our country that 19 states still refuse to avail themselves of it.
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: You seem really angry. Maybe take a nice walk outside and try to relax a little?
AMinNC
@NR: I know you’ll take this as just more excuse-making, but the Democrats enacted policies that stopped the complete collapse of the entire economy. The Democrats enacted Kynect in Kentucky (and all of the other names the ACA was called at the state-level) and saved the lives of who knows how many of their citizens who previously didn’t have insurance. They beat back the privatization of Social Security under Bush. But they got NO credit for any of this. I too am sorry that Obama couldn’t solve all of our country’s ills at once, but I don’t blame him or the Democratic Party for not being perfect. I give them credit for moving the ball in the right direction; I work like hell to try to counteract the non-stop false narratives of the GOP and right-wing propaganda machine; and I do whatever I can to undo the very real voter-suppression and gerrymandering efforts the GOP has used to incredibly great effect since 2010. I don’t know where you live, but I’m in North Carolina, and I know that around half of our citizens are GOP and half are Dem, and if we keep attacking the Democrats as do-nothings rather than talking up what they actually are accomplishing in the face of complete GOP resistance, we’re not going to win here again. I am in a really blue area, but go 20 miles outside of my town and the racism and anti-union sentiment, and general ignorance is astounding. Those people vote, We need our people to vote, and always telling them that the Democrats are sellouts is a rather poor way to motivate people, no? How do you expect to ever see your preferred policies enacted if you don’t work with the one political entity that is actually moving in your preferred direction?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
I’m angry because of idiots like you who have no good ideas but still bitch and complain.
NR
@AMinNC: The thing is, it’s not about what people like you and I say. It’s about what they see in their lives. The ACA helped some people, and that’s great. But there are millions – literal millions – of people in America who it didn’t help. I know lots of people on the left like to pretend those people don’t exist, but they are out there. They know that they weren’t helped, and hearing the Democrats say “well we tried but we didn’t have the votes for anything better” isn’t enough for them. And it never will be.
People want results, not excuses. That’s the bottom line. If you’re delivering a lot of the latter, you’re going to have problems.
TenguPhule
@NR:
They voted for Republicans who fought against every benefit and improvement.
Not responsible for idiots who commit suicide. Or who aid and abet.
NR
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I’ve talked about my ideas at length here before. Whether or not you agree with them is up to you, but it seems rather silly to criticize me when I’m not the one who’s lost the entire country to the Republicans.
NR
@TenguPhule:
I’m talking about the people who weren’t helped. The Democrats didn’t give them anything either.
And not all of them voted for Republicans. Some simply didn’t vote.
TenguPhule
@NR:
And you keep missing the point.
It didn’t matter that a solid block of Democrats wanted more.
A small minority dictated what could or could not pass. And they had this power because Republicans were a fucking united block of opposition.
So stop pretending your pie in the sky could have changed anything because it was never going to happen. Anyone who was up to date on the latest “Clinton scandal of the day” but claimed ignorance of the ACA and the stimulus work done was and is a deplorable and beyond salvation.
TenguPhule
@NR:
For all of 9 months before Kennedy died and his replacement was finally confirmed. With the fucking Blue Dogs in our ranks. And while the world economy was going to hell all around us.
Legislating, how does it work?
Trying to get them all on the same page was worse then herding cats.
NR
@TenguPhule: Again, you are delivering a lot of excuses.
Excuses don’t cut it with voters. If you don’t understand this by now, I’m not sure what it will take.
AMinNC
@NR: Yes, I KNOW a lot of people are still hurting. I just don’t see what disparaging the party that at least tries to help these people accomplishes? Yes, there were some Democrats who were too conservative to vote for a Public Option and a a larger Stimulus Bill, but the vast majority of them were for those things, while NO Republicans were. I know that you know that we have a 2-party winner-take-all system, so why on earth would you make it easier for Republicans to win by ragging on Democrats? If all Democrats and progressives of all stripes (and I mean regular people, not pols) talked up all of the good things the party is doing – having discussions online with FB friends, writing letters to our local paper, having discussions in the doctor’s office waiting rooms, in the grocery line, etc. maybe we could get through the non-stop cloud of lies and ignorance these “left behind” people are living in. And if the politicians know that the people are behind them enacting progressive policies (as opposed to screaming at them at town halls to Repeal Obamacare! and Kill Welfare for those people!) then the Democratic Party will move even further to the left as you (and I) desire. I guess I just don’t see what you are hoping to accomplish in real terms by refusing to build on the very real accomplishments of Democrats, and instead just always talk about how they are lacking – I’m not being snarky, I am genuinely puzzled.
TenguPhule
@NR:
You are burying your head in the stand and refusing to deal with the reality in front of you, which is not the one you wish it would be.
The Civil Breakdown isn’t going to care about your purity preferences. It will kill indiscriminately.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
Here’s to hoping NR is one of its victims.
I mean what was Obama or Reid or Pelosi supposed to do, put guns to their heads?
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
That was NR’s very cunning plan, yes.
Except they were supposed to use a turnip carved to look like a pistol.
NR
@AMinNC: There is a contingent of people here who say over and over again that the Democrats are perfect, and anyone who has a problem with anything the party did in the Obama years is either a racist or a stupid purity troll. Or both.
I try to push back against that narrative, not only because it’s bullshit, but also because if the party doesn’t change anything, they are going to continue to lose to the Republicans.
I’m willing to give credit where it’s due. When Obama did good things, like the DADT repeal for example, I praised him for it. But if we can’t at the very least admit that the party’s approach during the Obama years didn’t work for a lot of the country, we can’t take any steps toward fixing it. And those steps are badly needed.
TenguPhule
@NR:
Except nobody here is. What we keep telling you is that expecting perfection from what we had to work with at the time was a fool’s errand.
But you keep insisting on making the perfect the enemy of the good.
NR
@TenguPhule: There are people in these very comments who have claimed that not a single one of the 1,000 legislative seats the Democrats lost to the Republicans was through any fault of their own. What is that if not saying the party is perfect?
TenguPhule
@NR:
it says that circumstances beyond their control led to a large portion of the American Public losing their minds as they were drowned under a flood of corporate cash that filled the airwaves with “D Two legs Bad, R Four legs good.”
You’re the one insisting that the Democrats could have won by being “perfect”.
NR
@TenguPhule: So in other words, the party did everything perfectly and only lost because of circumstances beyond their control.
That’s exactly the attitude I’m talking about.
joel hanes
@TriassicSands:
My friend, we’ve always had a cohort as stupid as that woman.
Read Huck Finn. That girl is Pap Finn in drag, and a few years younger.
I hope you can find a way simply to not click on stories like that one.
For myself, for my own sanity, I make a policy of NEVER watching any news video.
Video is a terrible way to get news : slow delivery, emotionally connection bypasses the intellect.
Stick with text.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NR:
There’s only so much that can be done when you have defiant members from conservative districts and states. That’s what you don’t understand.
That may not matter to voters ultimately, but that’s the truth
way2blue
Dumb slogan. And tone deaf. Democrats don’t offer a ‘Better Deal’ to average Americans than do Republicans. Because Republicans don’t offer them anything. If Democrats are going to craft a slogan, it needs to stand alone, not as a comparison to lunatics and saboteurs. And not one that gives everyone a pony. Something about level playing fields, square deals, a path to a less fraught life… Something positive & fair. Not ‘trust us — we’re better than the hooligans’…
The Truffle
@TenguPhule: Yeah, I have yet to hear anyone suggest that the Dems are perfect.
I agree with Oliver Willis, who keeps saying on Twitter that people are turning this slogan into something bigger than it is.