Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

How stupid are these people?

People are complicated. Love is not.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

With all due respect and assumptions of good faith, please fuck off into the sun.

The real work of an opposition party is to hold the people in power accountable.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Polls are now a reliable indicator of what corporate Republicans want us to think.

You cannot love your country only when you win.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

You passed on an opportunity to be offended? What are you even doing here?

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

The lights are all blinking red.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Come on, man.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires.

We need to vote them all out and restore sane Democratic government.

Well, whatever it is, it’s better than being a Republican.

The current Supreme Court is a dangerous, rogue court.

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. keep building.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

You are here: Home / Politics / Trumpery / Dolt 45 / Open Thread: Supervising “President” Man-Baby

Open Thread: Supervising “President” Man-Baby

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Q: Action movie screenplay, or real-life “governing”?

Raised voices could be heard through the thick door to the Oval Office as John Kelly – then secretary of Homeland Security – offered some tough talk to President Donald Trump.

Kelly, a whip-cracking retired general who was sworn in as White House chief of staff on Monday, had demanded to speak to the president alone after Trump complained loudly that the U.S. was admitting travelers from countries he viewed as high risk.

Kelly first tried to explain to Trump that the admissions were standard – some people had legitimate reasons to visit the country – but the president insisted that it was making him look bad, according to an administration official familiar with the exchange about a month ago.

Kelly then demanded that other advisers leave the room so he could speak to the president frankly. Trump refused at first, but agreed when Kelly insisted.

It was an early indication that Kelly, a decorated retired Marine general who served three tours in Iraq, is not afraid to stand up to his commander-in-chief.

Tapped to bring order to a chaotic West Wing, Kelly began to make his mark immediately Monday, ousting newly appointed communications director Anthony Scaramucci and revising a dysfunctional command structure that has bred warring factions. From now on, said White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders, all senior staffers – including the president’s son-in-law Jared Kushner and chief strategist Steve Bannon – will report to Kelly instead of the president.

Sanders said Tuesday that Kelly had spent his first day on the job speaking with members of Congress, getting to know White House staffers and working to put new procedures in place.

“It definitely has the fingerprints of a new sheriff in town,” said Blain Rethmeier, who guided Kelly through the Senate confirmation process for the Homeland Security post. Rethmeier said that what stood out about Kelly during the time they worked together was the way Kelly commanded respect from everyone he encountered – and the way he respected others….

A: C’mon — fiction has to be minimally plausible.

Reader Interactions

204Comments

  3. 3.

    MaryL

    If this is true, then I doubt Kelly will last long. Trump may enjoy the novelty of having a general stand up to him, but I bet it wears thin pretty quick if they’re interacting regularly.

  6. 6.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Golf.com reports that during a recent visit to his New Jersey golf club (which Trump has visited four times since his inauguration), the president told fellow members the reason why he frequents his own properties.

    “That White House is a real dump,” he said.

    Imagine the wall-to-wall hysteria and scandal if a Democrat said this.

  7. 7.

    lamh36

    @Freeyourmindkid
    Following
    More
    So can we all finally agree that “Make America Great Again” is really code for a return to Jim Crow?

  10. 10.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Brian Beutler:

    Kelly deserves about as much praise for firing Scaramuci as Reince Priebus, Trump’s first chief of staff, would have deserved if he had fired former press secretary Sean Spicer for urinating on the press corps from the briefing room podium. Moreover the odds that Kelly will be an effective chief of staff are frankly very low. […]
    If we must grade Trump officials on a curve, though, the appropriate test isn’t whether Kelly has the mettle to fire a middling buffoon, but whether he can restrain the one who inhabits the Oval Office from gutting the rule of law. The only questions that matter now are whether Kelly can prevent Trump from moving against Robert Mueller, the Justice Department special counsel in charge of the Russia investigation, and whether he will resign if he can’t.

  14. 14.

    Jeffro

    @MaryL: It’ll last until the first time Kelly slips and blurts out (about whatever Trump has just decided to do), “Jesus, that is really fucking stupid. Are you serious?”

    So, about a week…

  17. 17.

    Ruckus

    @MaryL:
    Not only that but his access is limited to and through Kelly. That doesn’t sound like it will go over well at all.

  18. 18.

    Adam L Silverman

    @schrodingers_cat: These aren’t hagiographies. These are leak driven hit pieces intended to look like hagiographies. These are intended to be put in front of the President by those who don’t want Kelly or anyone else as a strong chief of staff implementing a proper org chart and a disciplined process in the White House. You and others see these as talking Kelly up. What they really are are evidence that will be shown to the President that Kelly (and Mattis) don’t trust the President, that Kelly supported Comey, that Kelly thinks he can tell the President what to do. It hasn’t been 48 hours and the knives are out.

  19. 19.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Seven Days in May?

    James Mattoon Scott was tall, handsome and charismatic – ie a white Obama (photo)

    Mattis and Kelly are not. Moreover, Kelly is really thin skinned.

  20. 20.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Ivanka, Jared, and probably Bannon will nominally report to Kelly, but they still will have unfettered access to Trump.

  21. 21.

    Jeffro

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: I’m adding it to the list of things I want to check in with my RWNJ dad and brother about…I have a feeling that their propaganda channel of choice might not have reported these last few stories:
    – Trump owning up to writing Trump Jr’s misleading statement (about “adoptions”)
    – Trump not signing the Russia sanctions bill
    – Trump not making a peep about Russia kicking out 755 of our people
    – Politico publishing the WSJ transcript, the one the WSJ was withholding because Trump was such an addled mess
    – the GOP donor who created & pushed the Seth Rich ‘fake news’ (along with Fox and the WH, to possibly include Trump himself) in order to distract from Russia stories

    Why do I have a feeling that Faux Snooze is 0 for 6 reporting on the above?

  22. 22.

    Mike in NC

    Kelly will be a marked man as soon as he appears on the cover of TIME magazine. Trump collects those like baseball cards.

  25. 25.

    amygdala

    @Omnes Omnibus: What could possibly go wrong with that? I worked for a malignant narcissist for several years. They feed off this sort of discord like it’s fancy chocolate. Ugh.

  26. 26.

    Ruckus

    @schrodingers_cat:

    hero worship of generals a tad sickening

    Only a tad?
    I find it to be a lot worse than a tad. We are supposed to have civilian control. Government set up specifically for civilian control. For a very, very good reason.
    And as you noted, Kelly has shown his stripes at DHS. And they aren’t good.

  30. 30.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Run the country like a business

    Run the country like a military

    Run the country like a reality game show

  31. 31.

    Mike in NC

    I read Seven Days in May long after the movie came out. In the book, the military coup centered around the US getting bogged down in a war in the Middle East with no end in sight. Rod Serling must have thought that so implausible that he changed the screenplay to make the Cold War era Soviets the bad guys.

  32. 32.

    EriktheRed

    Chuck Pierce:

    Frankly, I don’t want this president* to project competence in office. The only thing slowing our slide toward an authoritarian government is the fact that the president* is so bad at it. I don’t want the message to be coherent if the policy is destructive and retrograde. If the president* starts performing the role of The President without throwing himself into the orchestra pit three times a show, then the theater-critic wing of America’s punditocracy may decide that Kelly has made a silk purse out of this particular sow’s ear. It will not be true, but it might be something you can sell.

    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a56741/mooch-fired-by-john-kelly/

  34. 34.

    Adam L Silverman

    @MaryL: This is how several people have been scuttled already. Ben Carson had one of his longtime campaign aides hired as his senior assistant at HUD. Guy was already there before Carson was confirmed. Someone slipped the primary campaign season op-ed this aide had written arguing why Carson was a better choice than the President into the reading list. Shortly after Carson was confirmed his aide was fired for not being loyal to the President and escorted out of HUD headquarters. Elliot Abrams, Tillerson’s choice for his deputy at State, never even got that far. The morning he met with the President someone (believed to be Bannon or Miller or someone working on their behalf) slipped several of the op-eds he’d written opposing the President’s proposed policies during the campaign. The President met with him and Tillerson was told he wouldn’t be hired because he wasn’t loyal. Similar with a couple of folks Mattis wanted as senior deputies at DOD.

  35. 35.

    amygdala

    @Jeffro: Don’t forget Trump’s claim that the Boy Scouts dubbed his Jamboree speech the best ever, while BSA denies there was even a convo.

  38. 38.

    sharl

    @Jeffro: For the last week or two, Dave Weigel – either directly or via retweets of others (e.g., Media Matters) – has been doing comparative screen shots of what Fox is covering vs. a couple of the other networks (usually CNN and MSNBC as I recall). It’s going about how you would expect, if you have even the slightest familiarity with Fox.

    I’m not sure it’s relevant, but that phony Seth Rich story that Fox was pushing really seems to have offended Weigel down to his core. I’ve been following him since his days at Reason, so I know what he’s been subjected to over the years, and how tough his hide has become as a result. For something to jolt him at this point in his career, it has to be really beyond the pale.

  41. 41.

    MaryL

    @Adam L Silverman: I can’t even imagine how miserable it must be to work there, and I was a BigLaw associate for 7 years so I know a thing or two about miserable workplaces.

  43. 43.

    Amir Khalid

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    I agree with the consensus here that John Kelly has been set up to fail, and his first major confrontation with any member of la famiglia Trump will be his last. It makes me wonder: a general must have some political smarts about him. I remember one who knew enough to dismiss a post offered by the Trump administration as a “shit sandwich”. So why did Kelly bite into this one?

  44. 44.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Baud: He got himself alone with Jared and Ivanka and then the President long enough to end run the keep out hold that Priebus had in place to keep him out.

  45. 45.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Adam L Silverman: I always thought Abrams was spiked because of his long support of sanctioning Russia, going back to Jackson-Vanik in the 70s.

  47. 47.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @MomSense: I suspect Kushner, too. He wouldn’t accept all those absurd portfolios unless he was as absurdly self-deluded about his abilities, and he wouldn’t want any outsider interfering in his moves to promote his own family’s fortune and interests.

    Someone on MSNBC today, can’t remember if it was Stephanie Ruehle again, was without a trace of awareness making the case today that there was no way Kelly was going to tolerate the Mooch and his personal business conflicts of interest and entanglements foreign governments, especially the Chinese! I’m a doofus with a laptop and I remember the NYT story about how 666 5th Ave (really, universe?) is in hock up to the top floor to gov’t-allied Chinese and Russian banks. And wasn’t it his sister who was promoting her own vanity project in China by talking about her access to trump?

  48. 48.

    Brachiator

    @sharl:

    ..For something to jolt him at this point in his career, it has to be really beyond the pale.

    This is just jolting him now? Where’s he been for the last 20 years?

  49. 49.

    Gin & Tonic

    In the mixed-news department, I managed to get an appointment at the end of August with one of the country’s leading hand and upper extremity surgeons in NYC. It’s mixed news because obviously the guy is wicked smart and has seen everything, so it’s good he agreed to take my case, it’s just a real drag that I have a case that needs the services of someone like that. Here’s hoping.

  50. 50.

    Adam L Silverman

    @MomSense: We will likely never know. And, remember, Bannon has at least one of his Breitbrats working for him Plus Gorka. Miller has been ingratiating himself with Jared and Ivanka. So who knows at this point.

  51. 51.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Amir Khalid:

    So why did Kelly bite into this one?

    I think, given his performance at DHS, that he may be a fellow traveler on the immigration front.

  52. 52.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Omnes Omnibus: and I suspect a couple others, like “bomb the shit out of them” and the general “Get Tough With ________” attitude (I at first started to type “policy”, but I remembered there are none before I hit the “l” key)

  53. 53.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Luthe:

    Look at Bannon after the Time cover.

    His power and access are undiminished. This “Bannon is on the outs” stuff is for the rubes from Podunk.

  54. 54.

    Mnemosyne

    @eclare:

    I think you sent it to me by mistake. I was thinking, I like Idris Elba just fine, but he’s not on my list of future ex-husbands … ??

  55. 55.

    Adam L Silverman

    @MaryL: Toxic staffs are usually the result of a toxic boss. No matter how good Kelly is there is only so much he can do given who the boss is. If the boss was competent and had a clear vision a flatter, enterprise type of organization might work. Provided it was staffed with the right people, not people that have decided that social Darwinism is a personal and professional ethos.

  56. 56.

    Jeffro

    @sharl:

    Dave Weigel – either directly or via retweets of others (e.g., Media Matters) – has been doing comparative screen shots of what Fox is covering vs. a couple of the other networks (usually CNN and MSNBC as I recall). It’s going about how you would expect, if you have even the slightest familiarity with Fox.

    I can’t bring myself to watch Fox News on TV, but I do pop over occasionally to its website (usually shortly after a really big Trump bombshell) and naturally it’s very similar. Trump bombshell drop on ‘regular’ news outlets? Fox will be blasting something about North Korea, MS 13, or John Podesta.

    They’re not really a news channel or even propaganda so much as they are a constant fear machine. “We like to keep your anxiety at a fever pitch 24/7, so that when we need you to prop up the GOP, you’ll be there for us”. It’s longish for a slogan, but it’s a tad more accurate than “We report, you decide”.

  59. 59.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: If I can figure out how to do it without violating classification, I intend to write something tomorrow about Kushner’s caught on audio remarks about the Israeli-Palestinian dispute and peace process. Given that I worked on the last attempt.

  61. 61.

    Tehanu

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Elliot Abrams, Tillerson’s choice for his deputy at State, never even got that far. The morning he met with the President someone (believed to be Bannon or Miller or someone working on their behalf) slipped several of the op-eds he’d written opposing the President’s proposed policies during the campaign. The President met with him and Tillerson was told he wouldn’t be hired because he wasn’t loyal.

    I loathe Elliot Abrams so it’s a good thing he didn’t get hired, but … holy mackerel.

  62. 62.

    Brachiator

    @Adam L Silverman:

    .Similar with a couple of folks Mattis wanted as senior deputies at DOD.

    It’s really hard to square this expectation that Kelly will be the answer to all of Trump’s problems with this consistent, persistent attitude that loyalty to Trump comes before everything.

  63. 63.

    Ruckus

    @Amir Khalid:

    So why did Kelly bite into this one?

    2 Possibilities.
    1. He thinks he can make it work, that by enforcing a bit of discipline and order things will improve.
    2. He’s a RWNJ himself and he’s going to make the WH, RWNJ heaven.
    I’m going with 3. Both of the above.

  64. 64.

    Another Scott

    @Gin & Tonic: Sorry that you’re still having issues after your break. :-( . Here’s hoping he gets you back in fighting shape quickly.

    Good luck!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  66. 66.

    Gin & Tonic

    @eclare: The first or the second? I put up a recent one a week or two ago, and the problem is it’s still all bits and pieces. I have the first (pre-op) one on my phone, and people get pretty grossed out when I show it to them. Kind of like a perverted bar trick.

  68. 68.

    SiubhanDuinne

    I hate Trump so much for calling the White House a dump. Just fuck him, fuck him with every rusty farm implement within arm’s reach, fuck him, fuck him, fuck him. If he didn’t want to live in a dump, he could’ve stayed in Trump Tower in New York and spared himself the humiliation of living in a dump and spared the rest of us the humiliation of having him as the president of the United States. Fuck him. Seriously, fuck him.

  69. 69.

    Felonius Monk

    There’s a piece over at TPM about a BBC interview with Gorka. I found this to be the best comment on that piece:

    Poor Gorka, so desperately trying to be important enough to be thrown under the bus.

  70. 70.

    Face

    There’s no way those clowns (Bannon, Kushner, etc.) take a back seat to any one at this point. Power hungry x 1000. They’ll figure out a work-around, Kelly will blast them publicly (believing DJT will back him); instead, Trump will support them, and Kelly will bolt. This is as easy to predict as Natty Light at a frat party.

  72. 72.

    peach flavored shampoo

    There’s no way those clowns (Bannon, Kushner, etc.) take a back seat to any one at this point. Power hungry x 1000. They’ll figure out a work-around, Kelly will blast them publicly (believing DJT will back him); instead, Trump will support them, and Kelly will bolt. This is as easy to predict as Natty Light at a frat party.

  73. 73.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Tehanu: He’s not exactly my first choice for anything, but he fell into the “globalist” category (neo-Con, Jewish, accepting of international rules and the global system – Jared, Ivanka, Gary Cohen, and Dina Powell – who is a Copt of Alexandrine descent, Mnuchin are also in this category). So the nationalists (Bannon, the Breitbrat on his staff, Gorka, Miller – who technically, because he’s Jewish should be in the first category, but he’s trying to pass, so…, Sessions, and a few others are in this category) made sure the fix was in.

  74. 74.

    Miss Bianca

    @Mnemosyne:

    I like Idris Elba just fine, but he’s not on my list of future ex-husbands …

    He is on mine. Or as close to such a formulation as I am likely to come. Now, the question is: Does lamh get him first? Or later? : )

  80. 80.

    Ruckus

    @Gin & Tonic:
    I had an ortho like that in Columbus, OH. He fixed a buddies foot after it was crushed and he said it was like a jigsaw puzzle, pieces all over the place and he had to take out each piece and try to figure out what bone it was and where it went. In about 3 months my buddy was walking without assistance and if you didn’t know about the accident, you couldn’t tell. Also did my shoulder and ankle. That was fun. They work better than the other side.
    His brother was an ortho in a different part of town as well but that family tree didn’t spread evenly.
    In any event good luck.

  84. 84.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Another Scott: I’ve listened to the audio. What I want to do is provide some context as to why it’s important to do exactly the opposite of what Jared is suggesting. That one needs to read the history of the dispute – broadly and deeply, as well as the history of past attempts by the US and others that have failed. I just have to make sure that when I write it up I’m on the right side of the line.

  85. 85.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ruckus: Which hospital? I had my knee rebuilt at the OSU hospital. My ortho was the guy who rebuilt broken Buckeyes. I figured that, in that city, he had to be the best.

  87. 87.

    lamh36

    @eclare: Oh. yeah. I know. He’s on a PR push for Dark Tower. It opens this Friday…I’m not sure if it’s gonna work…must as I stan for Idris, honestly, I’m just not sure the movie is meant for a summer type release…ya know….hmm

  91. 91.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @lamh36: Oh good, you are aware of Dark Tower. I’ve been meaning to mention it to you, but it kept slipping my mind. Sorry.

  93. 93.

    Adam L Silverman

    @mai naem mobile: I have no idea. I doubt it’s the Deep State because I can’t see what the 1970s Turkish security services would have to do with any of this.

  94. 94.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    About that Russia sanctions bill; does Congress have a 2/3 majority to override a veto?

  95. 95.

    West of the Rockies (been a while)

    @Adam L Silverman: These leaks are then, presumably, not IC leaks but from someone like, perhaps Kushner or Bannon, who resent their diminished access to Trump?

  97. 97.

    eclare

    @SiubhanDuinne: Could not agree more…what a low class alternative fact POS occupying the White House. How 63M could look at that, and say, yeah, that is what we need, is terrifying.

  104. 104.

    Ruckus

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Had his own office, in Westerville, I went to OSU medical if I remember correctly, for my shoulder surgery, imagine my buddy went there as well. My shoulder was 16-17 yrs ago, and I didn’t drive there so I may have gotten it wrong. Rather groggy going home. But I do remember that’s where I went for all my MRIs, and there were a few of them.

  105. 105.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    I know that pissed me off too. It’s a national historic landmark with so much history. None of that matters to his little mind. He’s a piece of shit. As if his tacky resorts are better than the WH.

  106. 106.

    Another Scott

    @eclare: And why can’t everyone see what a good guy Bibi is? I mean, Jared’s known him a long time – he’s a family friend. Why everyone can’t see that Israel was just doing perfectly reasonable stuff with no possible ulterior motives?

    And clearly nothing’s been accomplished in 40-50 years. I mean Egypt getting the Sinai back and reopening the Suez Canal and Camp David and …

    …

    (erk)

    I just can’t.

    The kid grown man is an idiot. He’s beyond parody.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  108. 108.

    Mike in NC

    @SiubhanDuinne: If Trump really thinks the White House is a dump, it’s only because his incredibly bad taste requires his own home in NYC to resemble Versailles to the extent that Liberace would have found it tawdry.

  112. 112.

    Mnemosyne

    @Miss Bianca:

    I’ll let the two of you fight it out while me and Chiewetel walk off into the sunset together. ?

    ETA: Or Daveed, if I decide I don’t want a British accent after all.

  114. 114.

    Bill Arnold

    @Amir Khalid:

    So why did Kelly bite into this one?

    Out of curiosity, I watched an nbc news interview with kelly (april 2017) (there is at least one newer interview.)
    He seemed did not seem evil in that interview. Bad (except to those who share his politics), but at least thinking and rational, and not entirely (or maybe mostly not) driven by internalized talking points and other internalized propaganda.
    Anyway, I’m thinking that Kelly at core is a US patriot and believes in the defense of (his interpretation of) the US constitution.
    […more writing snipped. Worrying, it is, for sure.]

  115. 115.

    lamh36

    @Omnes Omnibus: oh yeah…the Dark Tower def on my radar. I never read the books, so the casting didn’t matter to me, but once Idris became attached along with McConaughey(sp?) I read up on it and figured hey…maybe.

    I mean one of the only reasons I saw Pacific Rim, and Guillermo Del Toro has had me since Hellboy, so 2 big reasons to see Pacific Rim…and I loved Idris in it, but was pleasantly surprised how good I found it.

    I want to give Dark Tower the same chance, but universe is plotting to make it difficult…I’ve got work on opening weekend, and if I don’t see movies the opening weekend/week, I tend to lose interest, esp a movie, I wasn’t already interested in.

  117. 117.

    sharl

    @Brachiator: It IS a bit surprising, because Weigel started is career covering the political libertarian and conservative beats – and I think he might still be a registered Republican in DC, which is a very small and rather unusual constituency on a couple of levels – so it’s not like he doesn’t know that crowd. I think it was sudden rise and empowerment of the Breitbart keyboard nazis (alt-right or whatever) that caught him unawares, accompanied by right-wing media management teams at Fox and elsewhere desperately trying to adjust their business model on the fly to stay on the good side of Trump (successfully so for Fox), so we get conspiracy mongering as a distraction from having to cover Russia or the health care debate
    ….[Quite understandably, left-leaning outlets like this blog are more attentive to the wrasslin’ between the liberals and far leftists, but there’s been quite a shake-up over on the right as well, giving us the nazi-frog crowd versus much of the conservative “intelligentsia” who became never-Trumpers. AFAICT there’s a large inter-generational split within both left and right. It’s all quite messy…]

  120. 120.

    lamh36

    Speaking of movies…came across this article today.

    Why the lack of Indian and African faces in Dunkirk matters | Sunny Singh

    What a surprise that Nigel Farage has endorsed the new fantasy-disguised-as-historical war film, Dunkirk. Christopher Nolan’s movie is an inadvertently timely, thinly veiled Brexiteer fantasy in which plucky Britons heroically retreat from the dangerous shores of Europe. Most importantly, it pushes the narrative that it was Britain as it exists today – and not the one with a global empire – that stood alone against the “European peril”.

    To do so, it erases the Royal Indian Army Services Corp companies, which were not only on the beach, but tasked with transporting supplies over terrain that was inaccessible for the British Expeditionary Force’s motorised transport companies. It also ignores the fact that by 1938, lascars – mostly from South Asia and East Africa – counted for one of four crewmen on British merchant vessels, and thus participated in large numbers in the evacuation.

    But Nolan’s erasures are not limited to the British. The French army deployed at Dunkirk included soldiers from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and other colonies, and in substantial numbers. Some non-white faces are visible in one crowd scene, but that’s it. The film forgets the racialised pecking order that determined life and death for both British and French colonial troops at Dunkirk and after it.

    This is important, firstly, because it is a matter of factual accuracy in what purports to be an historical portrayal – and also because it was the colonial troops who were crucial in averting absolute catastrophe for the allies. It is also important because, more than history books and school lessons, popular culture shapes and informs our imagination not only of the past, but of our present and future…

  121. 121.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Adam L Silverman:
    If he votoes it, it will make him look worse re: Russia. Not signing it and letting it become law is best case scenario for him. Which will still piss off Putin.

  122. 122.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I love Josh Marshall’s dignity wraith thing

    ((Molly Jong-Fast))Verified account @ MollyJongFast
    No one has ever been able to get Trump to behave, why would Kelly be the first?

    Josh Marshall‏Verified account @ joshtpm 38m38 minutes ago
    Like some sea creatures, the wraither first stuns it’s victim with a drug that convinces them that they’ll be different.

  123. 123.

    Mnemosyne

    @lamh36:

    That’s interesting, because I noticed that Patty Jenkins very specifically put Indian and other minority soldiers into Wonder Woman, which is historically accurate for WWI, and even more so for WWII.

  126. 126.

    eclare

    @lamh36: Huh, thanks. It has gotten such good reviews. I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know the history of Dunkirk.

  128. 128.

    gratuitous

    All right, I’m confused. Again. I thought Trump was smarter than all the generals, and now he’s hiring them left and right to save his faltering administration? Sad!

  130. 130.

    lamh36

    @Mnemosyne: LOL…no fight from me…

    I like Chiwetel, but my fav character of his is still Lola from Kinky Boots…so it gets a bit strange thinking about it…lol. He might be weirded out when I beg him to sing “Cha Cha Heels” for me…constantly.

    LOL

  131. 131.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @lamh36:
    Oh, Nolan, you could have made something truly beautiful. Instead you took the Michael Bay route of historical dramas. Looking at you, Pearl Harbor

  136. 136.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Felonius Monk: But Congress is now in session.

    If the President does not act on a measure-approving or vetoing it-within 10 days, the fate of the
    measure depends on whether Congress is in session. If Congress is in session, the bill becomes law
    without the President’s approval. If Congress is not in session, the measure does not become law.

  138. 138.

    JWR

    @mai naem mobile:

    @Adam L Silverman: so in your opinion who’s the leaker(s) ? Bannon? Kushner? Hope Hicks? Deep State?

    Given their past animosity, I’d say it was Bannon, or some like-minded back stabber(s) who share his dislike of Kushner, and/or Kushner’s role.

  140. 140.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Gross historical inaccuracy. In Pearl Harbor, for balance (I guess, since he portrayed them non-sterotypically) the evil Japs were depicted as firing on American civilians during the attack when that never happened. The Japanese were bad enough. Bay didn’t have to show them doing evil things they never actually did.

    Edit: On top of that, he also made our troops look like assholes, explained here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyvuFEPSR-Y

  142. 142.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Have you seen Dunkirk? I think it is a bad idea to assume that Nolan’s movie was intended to tell the full story of the evacuation. He used the history to tell three stories on different timelines (One week, one day, and one hour) that culminate at the same moment. If you go to see it and expect an “A Bridge Too Far” or “The Longest Day” experience, you are at the wrong movie.

  146. 146.

    Lurking Canadian

    I yield to no one in my contempt for Trump, but this story is pissing me off something fierce. Trump doesn’t work for Kelly. Kelly works for Trump. The people of the US, may God have mercy on them, didn’t vote for Kelly to be Commander in Chief of the US armed forces, they voted for Trump.

    Kelly shouldn’t be the one giving orders in the White House. The fact that Trump is running a completely fucked up gong show notwithstanding.

  149. 149.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Lurking Canadian: And yet the job of a presidential CoS is to make sure that POTUS has all the info that he needs to make a decision but is not overwhelmed with random shit. Good CoSs control access to POTUS but also make sure that POTUS has heard all sides of any issue. It’s a tough gig.

  150. 150.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Did you not read the comment? I would say not showing any of the Indian forces counts as insulting historical inaccuracy:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40724861

    What is well known, she told me, is that four companies of the Royal Indian Army Service Corps, including a unit of the Bikaner State forces, served in France during the campaign on the Western Front, and some were evacuated from Dunkirk. Among them were three contingents of the Royal Indian Army Service Corps. One contingent was taken prisoner by German forces.

    According to one account, India also provided more than 2,500 mules – shipped from Bombay (now Mumbai) to Marseilles – to the war effort as the British animal transport companies had been phased out. An Indian soldier, Jemadar Maula Dad Khan, was feted for showing “magnificent courage, coolness and decision” in protecting his men and animals when they were shelled from the ground and strafed from the air by the enemy.

    The Indian soldiers and the mules were eventually ordered towards the coast. Many of the men could not take their animals on the retreat and gave them away to local people in France, according to the same account.

    Historian John Broich says the Indian soldiers in Dunkirk were “particularly cool under fire and well organised during the retreat”.

    “They weren’t large in number, maybe a few hundred among hundreds of thousands, but their appearance in the film would have provided a good reminder of how utterly central the role of the Indian Army was in the war,” he told Slate.

    “Their service meant the difference between victory and defeat. In fact, while Britain and other allies were licking their wounds after Dunkirk, the Indian Army picked up the slack in North Africa and the Middle East.

  151. 151.

    Mike in NC

    @eclare: We’ve been to the Hermitage. Still not enough gold leaf for Trump! (But my wife, an art major who loves museums, was thrilled to see it.)

  154. 154.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Mike in NC: Russia’s on my bucket list, at least St Petersburg and Moscow, don’t know much about the rest of the country.

  155. 155.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Nolan makes no attempt to tell the full story of Dunkirk.

    In my view, that’s the problem. By not showing other non-white Commonwealth troops, he makes it seem like the UK were the only ones with skin in the game at Dunkirk. I think including Indian/African troops would make the movie even better.

  156. 156.

    Mike in NC

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: We spent a few days in Saint Petersburg during a Baltic Sea cruise in 2014. Quite spectacular, especially the Neva River boat ride and the many surrounding canals. Appreciated why they call it the Venice of the North.

  157. 157.

    Ruckus

    @Lurking Canadian:
    You are correct. Of course the problem is that drumpf is/always has been delusional, and in my mind in early dementia. Seeing as how he also has access to nuclear weapons (although he may not have any idea about that nor any idea on how to access them – one can only hope) there really should be some rational or even semi rational checkpoint there. Is Kelly that checkpoint? Fuck if I know. Nancy Reagan supposedly was actually in control at the end of Ronnie’s rein as he was apparently in full blown dementia by then. Non of us voted for her either. Is any of this bullshit reasonable? Fuck no it’s not.

  160. 160.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:

    What is well known, she told me, is that four companies of the Royal Indian Army Service Corps, including a unit of the Bikaner State forces, served in France during the campaign on the Western Front, and some were evacuated from Dunkirk. Among them were three contingents of the Royal Indian Army Service Corps. One contingent was taken prisoner by German forces.

    500 soldiers.

    “They weren’t large in number, maybe a few hundred among hundreds of thousands, but their appearance in the film would have provided a good reminder of how utterly central the role of the Indian Army was in the war”

    ???? In the later war, the Indian Army was vital. At Dunkirk, it was minor. The movie was about Dunkirk.

  162. 162.

    NoraLenderbee

    “That White House is a real dump,” he said.

    Because a black family lived there.

  163. 163.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @NoraLenderbee: Icky!

    Honestly that is a part of it. The other is that it is a small and very un-gilded palace. Buck House. Versailles. The Winter Palace. Etc. Tacky nouveau riche shithead.

  164. 164.

    SFAW

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:

    In my view, that’s the problem. By not showing other non-white Commonwealth troops, he makes it seem like the UK were the only ones with skin in the game at Dunkirk. I think including Indian/African troops would make the movie even better.

    Don’t forget: the Italian guy from Brooklyn — preferably Flatbush — whose Mom always sends him a salami; the Jewish kid from the Upper East Side; the slightly-effeminate-but-actually-tough-as-nails PFC who saves 15 of his pals (but who sacrifices himself so that they may live); the German kid from Indiana, whom everyone in the company thinks is a spy, or at least a sympathizer; the old guy from North Carolina, who enlisted because it was “the right thing to do”; and the pacifist medic who braves withering machine gun fire to save as many of his brother Tommys as he can.

  166. 166.

    The Moar You Know

    I hate Trump so much for calling the White House a dump. Just fuck him, fuck him with every rusty farm implement within arm’s reach, fuck him, fuck him, fuck him. If he didn’t want to live in a dump, he could’ve stayed in Trump Tower in New York and spared himself the humiliation of living in a dump and spared the rest of us the humiliation of having him as the president of the United States. Fuck him. Seriously, fuck him.

    @SiubhanDuinne: My reaction to that was pretty unexpected. I’m not a very patriotic person, I would say. But I was instantly offended to the core. Not OK at all.

  170. 170.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    But there were no Americans at Dunkirk. It was 1940. The US didn’t enter the war until late 1941. That’s a fallacious argument.

  173. 173.

    Mnemosyne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    FWIW, you’re kind of stepping into the middle of an ongoing controversy about history and portrayals of history. It’s not necessarily directed at Nolan specifically, but he managed to step in it by ignoring it.

  176. 176.

    SFAW

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:

    What’s that supposed to mean?

    It means the physics/science in Interstellar was not completely accurate.

    Or, to be less abstruse: making sure that every check-box has been checked — “ooh, look, they have Indians! From India! And Africans! And persons from this group! And persons from that group!” — just to make sure no one’s ox is gored, and that EVERYONE is included, might be considered a directorial affectation that serves no sensible purpose. Not every 100-percent-historically-accurate film is well made, and not every historical inaccuracy detracts from the film (unless someone is predisposed in that direction).

    We ain’t talking Freeman Gosden/Charles Correll and Sam Jaffe territory here, you know.

  180. 180.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @SFAW:
    Look, I don’t think having an Indian/African soldier as a main character in a movie about an event where they existed historically is too much to ask.

  181. 181.

    M. Bouffant

    We should all remember that 25 yrs. ago Kelly was perfectly willing to murder Americans w/ the Light Armored Recon Battalion he commanded.

    Completing duty under instruction and selected for lieutenant colonel, he was assigned as commanding officer, 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion (1st LAR), 1st Marine Division, Camp Pendleton, California. During his tenure, 1st LAR was called in to provide augmentation support for police in the city of Long Beach, California during the Los Angeles riots of 1992.

    And he’s skeered of immigrants, & happy to monger fear for all it’s worth.

    Kelly indicated days into the administration his interest in having the U.S.–Mexico border wall completed within two years. On April 21, 2017, Kelly said the U.S.–Mexico border wall would begin construction “by the end of the summer.” Two days later, Kelly said he believed “a border wall is essential” as there were “tremendous threats” such as drugs and individuals coming into the US. On May 2, Kelly stated his surprise in office holders “rejoicing in the fact that the wall will be slower to be built and, consequently, the southwest border under less control than it could be.”

    In May 2017, Kelly said of terrorism, “It’s everywhere. It’s constant. It’s nonstop. The good news for us in America is we have amazing people protecting us every day. But it can happen here almost anytime.” He said that the threat from terrorism was so severe that some people would “never leave the house” if they knew the truth.

    I’m reminded more & more of Japan in the 1930s & ’40s, when the Army held many senior gov’t. positions.

  182. 182.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Eh, I just don’t want hard feelings. Besides, I always have to consider the possibility that I might be wrong.

  183. 183.

    pappenheimer

    Watching Dunkirk made me suspect something that the internet confirmed – there are no more working Stukas. Which, given their loss rate in ANY airspace the Luftwaffe did not have absolute control over, should not have been surprising.

  187. 187.

    SFAW

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:

    Look, I don’t think having an Indian/African soldier as a main character in a movie about an event where they existed historically is too much to ask.

    I agree. I think Nolan should have had Idris Elba play Churchill, because why the fuck not? He’s English, ain’t he?

    Do you really not see the contradiction within your own arguments? You blockquoted that the non-whites were a small component (percentage-wise) of the Dunkirk force, (“maybe a few hundred among hundreds of thousands, “) but there SHOULD be a non-white main character because … they were brave, or organised, or cool under fire, or something.

    Whether Nolan did it his way, or your way, is immaterial. He made his choice, and down-talking a flick — which you haven’t yet seen — because you don’t agree with the possible-lack-of-inclusiveness-of-ALL-peoples-by-not-having-a-bit-player-as-a-main-character, seems to be a variant of pearl-clutching.

  188. 188.

    Mnemosyne

    @SFAW:

    making sure that every check-box has been checked … just to make sure no one’s ox is gored, and that EVERYONE is included, might be considered a directorial affectation that serves no sensible purpose.

    Hang on, I need to put my film historian hat on for a minute here …

    A big part of the problem is that a lot of people don’t realize that the films and photos we see of the past were deliberately sanitized of non-white faces before they were even taken. When the Free French marched into Paris after they liberated it, the Americans demanded that all of the African and Arab troops be taken out of the parade so racist Americans back home would not be offended by the sight of non-white soldiers marching with white ones in their newsreels, and the British High Command backed the Americans up, so De Gaulle acquiesced. I’ve linked to the story before, but I can track the link down again if you need me to.

    What people are asking for is that filmmakers show the actual historical reality, not censored Hollywood “reality.” It doesn’t really take that much — put a few of the hundreds of British Indian or British Pakistani actors in the UK into period uniforms and have them mill around in the background with the other extras. Boom — problem solved and controversy over. The fact that Nolan couldn’t be arsed to even throw in a few token extras says more about him than I think he realizes.

  189. 189.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @SFAW: I disagree. It’s not pearl clutching. Like Mnem said, you could had some as extras, no big deal.

  190. 190.

    SFAW

    @Mnemosyne:

    What people are asking for is that filmmakers show the actual historical reality, not censored Hollywood “reality.” It doesn’t really take that much — put a few of the hundreds of British Indian or British Pakistani actors in the UK into period uniforms and have them mill around in the background with the other extras. Boom — problem solved and controversy over.

    I don’t think that’s what Goku is asking for.

    The fact that Nolan couldn’t be arsed to even throw in a few token extras says more about him than I think he realizes.

    I agree.

    But, as a thought exercise: Is Chinatown or Knife in the Water less of a film because Polanski is a somewhat repulsive human (in at least some aspects of his life)? [Yeah, I realize it’s probably not an apples-to-apples comparison/analogy.]

  194. 194.

    Mnemosyne

    @SFAW:

    The last time I watched Chinatown, the whole Evelyn Mowbray was even creepier and more tragic than I remembered. She basically gets betrayed and/or abandoned and/or abused by every man in her life, including Jake.

    And anyone who watches Repulsion and doesn’t realize exactly why the Catherine Deneuve character has her mental breakdown is too stupid to live.

    It’s super weird to me that Polanski can identify so closely with victims of rape and sexual abuse and yet be a rapist, but that’s how fucked up his mind is.

    ETA: And I’ve read the relevant parts of the victim’s testimony from the case that caused him to flee the US. It was “rape rape,” as Whoopi Goldberg so inartfully phrased it, not statutory rape.

  195. 195.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    @SFAW: It’s all good. When I first saw the trailer, I thought it looked really good. I’m sure otherwise it’s a good movie and I plan to see it.

  196. 196.

    SFAW

    @Mnemosyne:
    Yeah, Chinatown was disturbing on a number of levels.

    I’ve never seen Repulsion, so I can’t comment. However, even without having seen it, I have sometimes been told I’m too stupid to live. By friends. Hmmm …

  198. 198.

    Mnemosyne

    @SFAW:

    Nightmarish, repetitive hallucinations of male arms shooting out of the walls to fondle her and almost being smothered by a male body coming down on top of her while she’s in bed in the middle of the night.

    But I’m sure it’s all just general existential angst, amirite?

    (Sorry, the morons on IMDb who insist they don’t see the pervasive incest/sexual abuse imagery really get on my nerves sometimes.)

  199. 199.

    Mnemosyne

    @SFAW:

    Crap. I used the forbidden word for what Evelyn Mowbray and the heroine of Repulsion have in common, and now I’m in moderation. Hopefully I’ll be released soon.

  200. 200.

    SFAW

    @Mnemosyne:

    I hope the Mod Squad releases you, but I gotta rack out, sorry. But I can guess what word you mean, I figure it has something to do with John Huston’s relations. Probably a worng guess, but that’s how I roll.

  202. 202.

    Sunny raines

    trump is a WWF circus clown. Kelly fits in play-acting as big daddy authoritarian tough guy

  203. 203.

    Aimai

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: trump can’t be alone with the thoughts in his own head. He needs people around him–psychophants (!sic) to cater to his bottomless emotional void. Kelly can’t give him what he needs and blockading the parade of boot lickers into the ovsl office will not be possible. Trymp will go on permanent vacation to mar a lago to prevent being alone with the job of president.

  204. 204.

    NorthLeft12

    @Ruckus: Yes, I find the whole military adoration schtick a bit hard to take. Not only for generals, but virtually anyone who served in the military. And before anyone jumps down my throat, I do not disrespect or dislike anyone who served in the armed forces of whichever country, I just don’t idolize them.

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