Gerard Baker, the head of the Wall Street Journal newsroom, is a disgrace, and I’m sorry that the story that he fellated Trump for an hour, then called it an interview, then forbade his “newspaper” to release the interview, isn’t getting more attention.
Given the criticisms that Editor in Chief Gerard Baker has faced for his paper’s coverage, and at a time when media transparency is more important than ever, the Journal’s decision to release only excerpts from the interview comes off as aloof. Why its editors made that decision is perhaps less surprising upon reading the full transcript, in which Baker talks with Ivanka Trump about parties in the Hamptons and spends part of his time in the Oval Office discussing, with Trump, Jordan Spieth’s final round at the British Open.
The paper is seen by many in the business as Trump-sympathetic during the campaign, more neutral since but clearly lagging behind competitors these days in breaking impactful stories. This won’t really help its image, at least in the media echo chamber, especially since Baker dominated the session and did so in solicitous fashion toward Trump.
He didn’t press him as he wandered or got facts wrong. He engaged in a mutually flattering back-and-forth with Ivanka Trump when she surfaced (as is her habit when dad is being interviewed) and mentioned seeing Baker at a party in the Hamptons.
Soon enough, the baby Hitler fantasies will be replaced by baby Rupert Murdoch fantasies.
Jeffro
(props to Politico for publishing the whole WSJ interview)
(even if that does make them…LEAKERS…)
Doug!
@Jeffro:
Politico is actually pretty good these days.
mai naem mobile
If you want to talk about immigration policy, the one who should never have been granted US citizenship is Rupert Murdoch . So so much damage to this country by this evil little man.
A Ghost To Most
FTFWSJ.
Betty Cracker
While it’s true that the story of Baker’s professional malpractice hasn’t dented public consciousness, it’s a bombshell to the people whose opinions matter to Baker, so that’s something, the squirming of the worm.
Kudos to the WSJ staffer who leaked the transcript. When the history of the sorry-ass Trump Error is written, leakers will be among the heroes of the depressing tale.
Catherine D.
I know people try to distinguish between WSJ reporters and editorial staff, but many years ago I shared an office with a (just recently) former WSJ reporter in the commodities/options business.
I thereupon fully grasped the concept of “a mile wide and an inch deep.” I’ve taken all reporting with a whole box’o’salt ever since.
reality-based (the original, not the troll)
OT, but thought all would enjoy – Seth Abramson verifying the Crazification factor at 26%
or have I got that wrong – is it 28%
Barney
I first became aware of Baker when he wrote for The Times (the British one), when he was the writer most consistently an arsehole in a Murdoch-owned paper that leans neocon. As Wikipedia notes,
Ryan Chittum, a former Wall Street Journal reporter, criticized Baker in the Columbia Journalism Review as “an Iraq War-cheerleading neocon, goofball Obama ridiculer, and author of some of the wrongest commentary of the financial crisis.” Chittum highlighted several of Baker’s previous writings, including a column in the Financial Times in 2003 in which Baker mocked French opposition to the Iraq War, and a column in the Times of London in 2006 in which Baker argued that “we are going to have to get ready for war with Iran.”
I’m sorry that the arsehole Australian inflicted an arsehole Briton on the USA via a paper whose editorial stances have largely been arseholish in the last few decades.
Villago Delenda Est
Rock his ass clear to the Long Island Weekly Shopper
Villago Delenda Est
@Doug!: Allen and vanderderp leaving helped.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@¡Doug!:
IOKIYAR
Doug!
@Villago Delenda Est:
But…Axios isn’t that bad either. I can’t figure it out.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Betty Cracker:
If Mueller doesn’t round them all up soon, the history will be written in Russian.
Patricia Kayden
WSJ has always been a rightwing rag so no surprises that one of its journalists would be overly kind towards Trump. Thank goodness for the Washington Post.
Mike J
@Jeffro:
I saw somebody (was is Baker?) call them leakers. They aren’t They’re publishers. It was leaked TO them. It’s not called leaking when publishers publish.
Mike J
@Patricia Kayden:
The news pages were pretty down the middle for decades. The editorial page has been a train wreck from day 1.
sukabi
@Doug!: horror is something most people can agree on. And then you have the folks who inflict it.
TenguPhule
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
That seems overly optimistic and presumes that literacy will be retained by the survivors.
Shalimar
I get the impression from Baker’s approach that the WSJ is used to Republican elected officials being total idiots and he really can’t tell that Trump is any worse than the average.
JMG
As a former newspaper hack (even cashed a Murdoch check in the late ’80s at the Boston Herald) let me assure you that Journal newsroom employees leaking this interview to another publication is like Ft. Sumter but with nuclear weapons. It is both treason and a declaration of war, and I’d bet a decent sum of money it’s a Murder on the Orient Express situation where a to of people collaborated in the leak.
Mike in NC
It’s pathetically obvious that Trump will only sit down with carefully vetted fellators (not “journalists”) like Hannity or O’Reilly or the shitbirds over at ‘Fox & Friends’, who’ll fawn over his every brain-damaged utterance.
TenguPhule
@JMG:
Now there’s a cheery image.
schrodingers_cat
@Mike in NC:You forgot Vichy Times, Maggie.
TriassicSands
Yesterday, I posted a comment that said that Baker should be ashamed of himself. I read the transcript of what was called an interview and I was appalled. Not only was it not adversarial journalism, it wasn’t journalism at all, just one hack schmoozing with the world’s biggest hack. Yes, Donald you are the “best” at some things — ignorance, stupidity, lying, vindictiveness, crassness, etc. (It’s a long list.)
@Patricia Kayden:
I don’t know anything about Baker. I avoid the WSJ and allow it to remain secreted behind its pay wall. But the lack of professionalism exhibited by Baker was startling. I’ve always read and been told that the craziness is all on the editorial pages at the Journal. The news pages are backed by accomplished, independent reporters and journalists who are led by independent management. Or so the story goes…or went. Of course, that was before Rupert Murdoch took over. But since I’ve never read the WSJ and continue to avoid it, I can’t compare the before with the after. But if Baker is any indication, whether the collapse came before or after Murdoch, today the WSJ is a partisan rag with little, if any, redeeming value.
Paul Gigot, who used to play a soft-spoken “moderate” on PBS, has presided over the craziness of the editorial pages for many years now. They were whacked-out before Murdoch and I’m sure they still are.
Major Major Major Major
@Doug!: what are you talking about, Axios is terrible!
TenguPhule
Okay, that was funny.
So hard to tell from the real thing.
catclub
@Mike in NC: Except for that recent NYT interview he sat down for.
Also interviews with NBC News, I believe.
So, not really.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
Currently the only difference between WSJ conservatism and, say, Fox conservatism is that the former won’t buy a skullcap made out of any metal less expensive than sterling silver. See also:
“If I were to create a list of questions to ask potential managers of my money, one of them would be: ‘Do you read the WSJ OpEds?’ If the answer were yes, I would not walk but run in the opposite direction.” – Barry Ritholtz
Doug!
@Major Major Major Major:
I read it every morning, and Jonathan Swan is very good.
MomSense
I blame our media as much as Russia for the disaster we are now enduring.
JMG
@catclub: When Trump wants to whine about how unfair it all is, he always seeks out the Times. Always. Since he’s a dope, he has yet to figure out that Jared and Ivanka are the two folks in his administration who do the most leaking to that paper and other media outlets. It’ll be fun if that particular dawn ever lights on Marblehead.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Doug!: As is Axios. Really only Lowry and Shafer have been consistently dogshit, and since the latter’s forcible reassignment to weekly recaps he’s been a lot less insufferable.
Major Major Major Major
@Doug!: that doesn’t mean Axios is good.
david spikes
@Shalimar: That’s how they all talk at the parties in the Hamptons.
David Anderson
@Major Major Major Major: on health policy, Axios has a good little team
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Doug!: Their decamping took much of Politico’s nihilism with them (hence its mostly being a legitimately good magazine since), but I’d guess Axios’ improvement is both the Peter Principle and a lighter editorial hand. As one of the LGM regular commenters noted back in February, horserace journalism’s shitty rep is largely a function of Sturgeon’s Law – at the time the only exceptions I could think of were Dave Weigel and David Graham.
Doug!
@David Anderson:
Yeah, I want to hate Axios, and Mike Allen is awful and there’s weird propagandist sponsored content, but….honestly there’s a lot of good stuff there.
Jeffro
@Doug!: Yup, hence the ‘props’ ;)
It ought to be one of those things, “When even Politico is going to great lengths to drag you…”
Doug!
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD):
I feel like neither Axios nor Politico right now is as bad as Politico was during Allen’s and VanderHei’s reign of terror.
Jeffro
@Mike J: Sorry, it was kind of ironic? I’m glad they’re…LEAKERS ;)
Jeffro
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: My guess is, a week or two after Labor Day weekend, Mueller drops something like three dozen different indictments for obstruction, conspiracy, money laundering, witness intimidation/tampering, and more. Half a dozen Trumpkins (including big names) will be named. And then…shit’s going to get pretty real, and thank god for that.
Major Major Major Major
@Doug!: that’s more like it.
kindness
Rupert Murdoch. Christ what an asshole. He’s done the same thing to everything he’s touched. Made them all right wing and half baked nutz. Fox News really has contributed to the dumbing down of society. Aggression & rage too probably. Certainly some of it’s viewers blood pressure issues. But that’s the point. You don’t use reason when you are enraged.
JMG
To expand on an earlier post, in all honesty I believe the point of Journal employees leaking the interview transcript, a total firing and career ending offense, which is why I believe it was a group effort, wasn’t to make Trump look bad. That happens every day. It was to reveal their editor as a lickspittle ideologue. They want Baker gone, and they’re willing to play very dirty to do it. Can’t say I blame ’em.
TriassicSands
@Mike in NC:
In fairness to Trump (OMG, I wrote that?) he has given at least one “long” interview to each of the three old-time networks.
David Muir, ABC, January
John Dickerson, CBS, April
Lester Holt, NBC, May
Plus the NY Times in July.
In fairness to the truth, the content of each of those interviews was the usual hash of stream of unconsciousness nonsense that Trump always spews. No substance. But a lot of rehashing of the past — the election, his astounding victory, how bad HRC is, his own magnificence, and on and on.
It will take a very special person to interview Trump and come away with a different product — one in which Trump is challenged to produce substantive details about policy and in which the interviewer forcefully brings Trump back to the subject and question at hand every time he wanders off, which will be constantly. Honestly, I doubt that is possible with Trump. He’s such a colossal idiot.
Since Trump doesn’t know anything about anything, there will never be content, only the obvious fact that he’s an ignoramus.
lamh36
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Doug!: Their Trump roundtables were what won me over.
However, Shafer’s writings between his hiring and May 2017 (and especially from 2016 to May 2017) were at least as awful as Allen/VdH-era POLITICO; word for word, he was probably the worst columnist for a mainstream US publication in terms of analysis/psychopathy – certainly worse than Cillizza.
Lurking Canadian
@MomSense: The media deserves way more blame than Russia. All Putin could do was deliver them the risotto recipe. It needed the media to turn it into a scandal.
JMG
@lamh36: Picking a fight with the Statue of Liberty. Sounds like a political winner to me!
James Powell
@MomSense:
I blame them more, much more. And not just the NYT for its 24 year witch hunt against Hillary Clinton.
We can scorn Baker for the soft massage interview of Trump, but that’s pretty much what the entire press/media gave him for most of the campaign.
lamh36
schrodingers_cat
@MomSense: I blame the media more.
MomSense
@schrodingers_cat:
I am more disgusted by them. We should expect better from the free press.
TriassicSands
@JMG:
Unlike many theories that appear on these pages, yours makes sense. Trump looked like a complete fool in the NY Times’ July interview. He delivers the same product every time — no substance, lots of lies, profound victimhood, a grand rehashing of the past and his own greatness. Another interview isn’t going to convince us that Trump is fit to be president; neither will it convince his supporters that’s he’s a mindless buffoon with no idea what he’s doing.
But the transcript of the Baker-Trump interview showed Baker to be almost as stupid and worthless as his subject. But who will fire Baker? With Murdoch in charge, is there someone above Baker with the integrity to hold him accountable for the embarrassment that interview should cause?
If there’s no chance he’ll be fired, then I suppose it’s just a matter of the good guys wanting to show the world it’s not their fault. Understandable, but sad.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Jeffro:
What would that look like? Who goes and arrests them?
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): …case in point.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@schrodingers_cat:
Me too. They’ve failed in every possible way.
TenguPhule
@Jeffro:
And which law enforcement agency carries this out?
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@TenguPhule: SUCH PWNÈD ALL WE
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Jeffro:
Is this wishful thinking or a semi-informed opinion, Jeffro? I’d love it to be true.
TriassicSands
@schrodingers_cat:
The difference is that Russia is our adversary and they did what adversaries do.
Our media have a different job, and unlike the Russians, they aren’t doing their job. So, of course, Americans should blame the media more. The Russians aren’t supposed to be guardians of truth and political accountability in the US.
TenguPhule
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): Members of Congress generally have blanket immunity from arrest while in office.
Lot of necks would have to be stuck out on the law and order side.
Lurking Canadian
@TriassicSands: It is true that there is no way to get substantive answers from Trump. He doesn’t know anything, so obviously he can’t tell you.
However, a proper interview would repeatedly ask for details until it became clear he had none, at which point the interviewer says, “Well, since you obviously have no answers on health care, let’s talk about trade…”
Such a thing would never happen, of course, because (a) Jared or Ivanka would shut it down in moments, and (possibly more important) (b) it would require abrasive rudeness on the part of the reporter and a willingness to never be invited back. That’s just now how they roll in the Village.
SiubhanDuinne
@TenguPhule:
So much wrong with this.
Roger Moore
@JMG:
For instance, it now seems pretty clear that Jared was the one who leaked about Jr dealing with the Russians.
TenguPhule
@SiubhanDuinne:
I didn’t write Article I, Section 6.
Shalimar
@lamh36: Stephen Miller has been very forthright for more than half his life about being a white nationalist, so that isn’t surprising. Hell, he might even be the person who originated the talking point among white supremacists. He isn’t just using the same language. He is proud to be one of them.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: @Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): well, that’s when the constitutional crisis would go from slow to …immediate.
Iowa Old Lady
@Jeffro: Why that timing?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: The legal system was not designed to handle all three branches compromised by traitors to a foreign power.
efgoldman
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
For everyone except “president” and Mother’s Little Helper from Indiana, any federal law enforcement officer. They don’t have protection.
rikyrah
Peanut has found Glee.
Now, I have to go on youtube and find the originals to the songs that she hears on Glee.
Sigh.
On the flip side, getting to introduce her to a lot of different music.
debbie
@lamh36:
Guess he was too cowardly to state his real objection, which is that the author was a Jew.
schrodingers_cat
@TriassicSands: Exactly, one can understand Russian motivation, they were left with egg on their faces after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and now it seems that they are having the last laugh.
But media’s motivation for the non-stop T fluffing since he announced is short sighted and stupid.
Roger Moore
@TenguPhule:
Not so much. The actual text is:
So their immunity is limited in two ways. It only applies while they’re actually attending a session of Congress or traveling to or from one, so they can be arrested while they’re home on recess. More importantly, it applies only to relatively minor offenses; they are not protected from arrest for felonies, which the charges arising from Trump/Russia are likely to be.
efgoldman
@TenguPhule:
While in office (i.e. during their term), I don’t think so. They immunity is on the floor of each chamber. IOW they can’t be arrested while they’re doing their job in the Capitol.
schrodingers_cat
@Shalimar: Isn’t he Jewish too?
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Roger Moore: @efgoldman: but don’t you get it, Roger and efg, we are all DOOOOOOOOOOOOMED, and after everyone refuses to be arrested we break out into civil war, then Trump drops the nuclear bombs and everyone dies forevuh and evuh TEH END.
@schrodingers_cat: Yes.
eclare
@SiubhanDuinne: That is not true. Ted (it’s a series of tubes!) Stevens was indicted and found guilty in office.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: yes it was, they can be replaced (or at least dramatically recomposed) every two years.
TenguPhule
@efgoldman:
To and from as well. Which could be stretched out by any good lawyer to cover quite a lot.
efgoldman
@TenguPhule:
The problem with citing an easily verifiable source is, it’s an easily verifiable source. It doesn’t say what you think it says.
JPL
So I’m streaming MSNBC, and I have to wonder where is Rachel? I love Joy, but sat down to listen to Maddow.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: also the Supreme Court isn’t in thrall to a foreign power.
rikyrah
I don’t care what she’s saying…she’s laying a foundation for a 2020 run.
Kirsten Gillibrand
✔
@SenGillibrand
We do not have to make compromises on protecting women’s health to win back the House or Senate.
2:41 PM – Aug 2, 2017
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
And any officer risks sticking out their necks to do it anyway. This would be one of those “If you aim at the King, Do not miss” moments. Because those same treasonous bastards will definitely retaliate and everyone knows it.
A Ghost to Most
@Jeffro:
That seems optimistic. I’ve been thinking they were going to stretch it out. That would give Rump et al more time to hang themselves.
I hope you are right.
I certainly am looking forward to the day when that fucking fascist weasel Miller goes down.
TenguPhule
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD):
1. First who will bell the cat?
2.Second, how does Trump and company respond?
efgoldman
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD):
Yes, because that’s what happened when ~60 of Tricksie Dicksie’s crew were arrested and charged.
No, it didn’t. Mostly they turned themselves in. That’s what white collar criminals do. Most of them pled or were found guilty.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Five of them quite possibly are.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@efgoldman: Do we really need to use
sarcasm tags
ALL THE TIME?TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
True.
p.a.
@lamh36: @debbie: Yeah, the first time I was ‘hmmmm’. The second was ‘motherfucker’.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: what makes you think more than one of them gives a flying fuck about Russia? You have no evidence to back up this statement at all.
rikyrah
Timothy NoahVerified account @TimothyNoah1
Esquire’s @CharlesPPierce points out that “cosmopolitan,” when pejorative, is an anti-Semitic dog whistle.
efgoldman
@TenguPhule:
APOCALYPSE ALERT!!
99.9% of the Trumpensteins wouldn’t know which end of the weapon to point which way. Even the brave safari offspring would shit their britches if they ever found a human instead of a defenseless four-legged animal in their sights.
But enjoy your fantasies. Pretend you’re the last Japanese holdout ten years after the war, plinking pineapple farmers. Have fun.
Shalimar
@schrodingers_cat: Yes, he is. There is an interesting letter from an uncle disavowing Miller’s politics and pointing out the only reason their ancestors weren’t murdered by Nazis is because they were lucky enough to immigrate to this country at a time of great prejudice against Jews. The uncle is far more polite to the little shit than I could ever be.
TenguPhule
@efgoldman:
Because no Congressional member would ever use political pressure to go after an individual that crossed them and destroy their career. //
Steeplejack
@JPL:
Maddow is taking some days off. Unknown how many. She wasn’t on last night either.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@rikyrah:
I don’t know about that, but she’s solid.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Russia dumped time and money on the legislative and executive branches.
Why wouldn’t they do so for the judicial?
Patricia Kayden
@lamh36: A Jewish White Nationalist. Things that make you go hmmmm. Perhaps he missed the memo that White Supremacists still hate Jews.
rikyrah
Border Patrol Ordered To Block Congressmen During Travel Ban
In the first hours of the travel ban, Trump administration officials stiff-armed Congress, treated lawyers calls like “protests,” and shared photos among themselves of protesters.
Betsy Woodruff
08.02.17 9:00 PM ET
As chaos unfolded at the nation’s airports, Trump administration officials issued clear directives: treat lawyers’ calls like “protests” and keep duly elected representatives out.
On the chaotic day the Trump administration’s travel ban went into effect, high-level Homeland Security officials directed their staff at airports around the country to stiff-arm members of Congress and treat lawyers with deep suspicion.
Members of Congress say they’re shocked by the orders, uncovered in documents obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request from The Daily Beast and The James Madison Project, both of which were represented by the law office of Mark S. Zaid.
“I’m extremely troubled that CBP [Customs and Border Protection] employees would be instructed by superiors to ignore Congressional representatives trying to do their job, especially under such circumstances,” said Sen. Cory Booker, a New Jersey Democrat. “We suspected as much at the time, but it’s jarring to see it in black and white. I’ll be seeking more information from CBP on this matter.”
A CBP official wrote in an email on Jan. 28 that the agency’s employees were forbidden from speaking to members of Congress.
Jeffro
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Doesn’t it depend upon the charges? Money laundering = the US attorneys of the DOJ.
@TenguPhule: Doesn’t it depend upon the charges? Money laundering = the US attorneys of the DOJ.
@West of the Rockies (been a while): Um, both?
@TenguPhule: Members of Congress certainly do not.
@Major Major Major Major: Right! Mueller drops three dozen charges, recommends that Congress impeach Trump, and tells DOJ to prosecute the rest…what happens, nothing? I think not.
@Iowa Old Lady: because a) I’d imagine he’d like time to build as strong a case as he can without waiting forever (due to the damage Trump Inc is doing to the country ever day it’s in power) and b) because – damn you Andy Card – there’s a reason you don’t ‘introduce new products’ in August. People are paying even less attention than usual.
I don’t get all the naysaying: would y’all rather Mueller just quit? Of course not. Well, at the end of his investigation, he’s going to drop some serious charges on a large number of folks…he’s not going to bust down the Oval Office and take Trumpov out in handcuffs, but him bringing the charges IS part of getting Trumpov out of there.
@efgoldman: yup. And whether they do or not, that’s then the question hanging around the GOP’s neck from “Indictment Day” until the next (and every) election until they do something. “America: your president has 7 criminal counts including money laundering, racketeering, and obstruction of justice hanging over him: why won’t the GOP impeach?”
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: a republican hasn’t nominated a Supreme Court justice other than gorsuch in over a fucking decade, dude.
ETA: also, wild speculation is not evidence
Jeffro
@efgoldman: thank you, great point. The whole landscape changes when a respected special counsel drops two dozen plus criminal charges on the president* and his cronies.
Also, mods, could you just delete my comment at #104 (or wherever it ends up?) I was trying to respond to all the naysayers who think just because Mueller won’t be busting down the Oval Office door and taking Trumpov out in handcuffs, that bringing charges won’t result in anything. Thank you.
Shalimar
@Patricia Kayden: It isn’t unheard of. Google Dan Burros , an early 60s American Nazi who killed himself once it was reported that he was actually Jewish.
efgoldman
@Major Major Major Major:
Absence of evidence is always evidence.
That’s how conspiracy theories work.
Patricia Kayden
@TriassicSands: Are we assuming that anyone at the WSJ is upset or ticked off at Baker for soft shoeing Trump? Why? As Conservatives, they’re okay with helping to repair Trump’s image as long as he furthers their agenda.
Major Major Major Major
@efgoldman: and evidence of absence just means somebody paid off the provider of said evidence.
Lurking Canadian
@rikyrah: Holy shit. Ignoring court orders was policy. It was as bad as it seemed. That is just chilling.
Shalimar
@TenguPhule: How are you proposing they “dumped money” on the judicial branch? Unlike the other two, there are no campaigns you can pump the bribes into without anyone noticing.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
They’ve been cultivating Trump for apparently over two decades.
But you’re right, I’ve got no evidence yet. Just very strong suspicions.
Patricia Kayden
@Shalimar: Ryan Gosling played a character loosely based on that story in The Believer. Pretty good movie.
randy khan
The beginning of the interview was pretty awful. I mean, being nice to your subject is one thing, but this was way beyond the pale. No wonder they didn’t want people to see the transcript.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
I’ve always thought that whole “would you go back in time and kill baby Hitler” thing was stupid and immoral. It would be evil to kill a child who has not yet done terrible things. It would be far better to try to steer the young Hitler in a more productive and less genocidal path. Maybe somehow get him admitted to the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna?
Shalimar
@Patricia Kayden: Didn’t know that. Will look for it. Thanks. :)
efgoldman
@TenguPhule:
They’ve been watering rows of him and using special fertilizer out the back forty, past the winter wheat and seed corn.
Dude, stop digging.
TenguPhule
@Shalimar:
The old fashioned way. Time and effort to cultivate first a friendly attitude and then lead them on a path into corruption. They’ve tried it on plenty of people before, I see no reason why judges would be exempt from this kind of effort.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: It’s fairly obvious she’s in the running – she retracted her support for the recent anti-BDS bill and was one of only 5 “nay” votes for Wray’s nomination.
Also worth noting the glee with which the bro-left pulled their knives out for Harris last week.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: And MSM’s newest hero, Kelly was right there standing behind T at the signing of the executive order. Later, enacting his inhumane policy agenda.
Shalimar
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: In the old GURPS Time Travel RPG, Hitler’s paintings from an alternate world where that became his occupation were very popular as curiosities on the prime Earth. Not everyone is obsessed with the killing baby Hitler question.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: if they managed to ‘corrupt’ (whatever you think that means) so much of the judiciary that by chance they ended up with a majority on the Supreme Court then we deserve to lose. Nobody could beat such mastery of espionage.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
OT: but re: over 500,000 registered voters being purged from rolls in Georgia, where is the “dirtbag left” on this issue? Besides calling Republicans bad names?
efgoldman
@TenguPhule:
We donn’ need no stinkin’ evidence!
I see no reason why you shouldn’t be taking your meds.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: couldn’t tell you, I unfollowed all my friends who share their stuff.
Shalimar
@TenguPhule: Supreme Court Justices are among the Americans least likely to be vulnerable to that sort of corruption. You don’t even have a hint of evidence that any prolonged efforts in that direction have ever been made.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Shalimar:
I always personally thought his artwork looked okay. I think some people just want to hate the art because of who the artist was.
But Hitler or no Hitler, the Weimar Republic was probably doomed to fall to some right-wing authoritarian movement, just not a fascist one.
TenguPhule
@Shalimar:
Of course I don’t.
Of course, I also wasn’t expecting there to be so many Republican Congresscritters apparently compromised by the Russians either.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: the tragedy of the Nazis was in the genocide and world domination, which are not guaranteed features of right wing authoritarian governments.
ETA: and his art was nothing special.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: IIRC one of the listed reasons he was rejected was that the absence of humans creeped out admissions.
Lurking Canadian
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I went to a gallery show some years ago. The artist was a friend of a friend. His style was very similar to sketches I have seen of Hitler’s youthful dalliance.
You don’t know awkward until your friend asks you what you think of his friend’s art and all you can think is, “It look just like Hitler’s!”
Bill Arnold
@Doug!:
I only hate it for the weird irritating javascript stuff; still skim at once a day at least and it’s not bad on a iphone/chrome.
(Was that weird video today sponsored, the one about people failing urine tests and not being hired? As opposed to considering drug laws on their merits and not just writing them match the drug preferences of old blueblood money, i.e. make ethanol legal?)
efgoldman
@Shalimar:
Also, if your conspiracy theory assumes corruption at that level, why wouldn’t it assume that liberal Democratic appointees are also corrupt?
[No, I’m not endorsing the theory. The RWNJ justices, like most intellectual right wingers, are just well-educate IGMFY assholes]
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD):
Just a guess: he may have been proficient at drawing buildings/landscapes but not people. He could have done architectural drawings.
I know when I took photography classes in high school I seldom took pictures with people in them. I focused on landscapes.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Lurking Canadian: @Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): I think he was applying to study in architecture.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: people are hard! (Because our brains scrutinize every detail, especially of faces and hands.)
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): I also seem to remember this.
Shalimar
@TenguPhule: Congresscritters are far easier to influence than members of the Supreme Court. They have to run for reelection, which requires constant money. They’re likely to be personally ambitious. Help them with their campaigns, and you have leverage that you can expand. They’re also likely to be personally greedy, which means they are more likely to accept bribes.
Members of the Supreme Court have spent most of their lives pursuing power and prestige, which they have achieved. Their appointments are for life. All they have to do for the rest of their time on this earth is issue opinions and bask in their self-importance. There just aren’t many ways you can get to them if you’re a foreign power.
Spies have limited time available to them and don’t want their covers blown. They aren’t going to waste some of it trying to recruit people with very tiny chances of being turned, unless they hear something about that person that makes them think they are vulnerable. And because of that, Russia is not going to waste resources trying to systematically turn members of the Supreme Court when you can put the same money into influencing greedy people like Trump, McConnell and Ryan.
Yarrow
@rikyrah:
I’m kind of surprised the FOIA hasn’t been overturned. Seems like that’s just the kind of the the Republicans would want to do.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): @Major Major Major Major:
I think I remember that too. Yeah, his art wasn’t that great, but to potentially avoid the Holocaust, I’d show admissions pictures of the death camps to get him accepted if I had to play time traveler.
Shalimar
@efgoldman: Yeah. I’m not saying the rightwing justices aren’t typical Republicans. I’m just saying it is hard to think of anything the Russians could offer them or blackmail them with that they can’t already get from the American political system.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: for something like that you really want to stop the threat in a manner with the least surface area for things to go wrong, which is, alas, wet work in this case.
Bill Arnold
@lamh36:
The particularly irritating aspect of this is that it’s quite possible (I’d call it likely even) that Miller has been steeping in insular alt-rightness for all his adult life and doesn’t know this. (The origins of the usage, that is.)
[tried to turn that into a better metaphor; did not succeed]
debbie
Just heard an NBC promo. They’re bringing back SNL Weekend Update early, starting next Thursday from 9 to 9:30. It seems it will be new, not reruns. I for one could sure use some Alec Baldwin and Melissa McCarthy.
Shalimar
@Major Major Major Major: In which case, it would still be easier to kill him on the WWI front lines than when he was a baby. People notice when you murder babies, even back at a time when far more infants died. And, as Goku said, you would be murdering a baby instead of adding one more casualty to day 2 of the Somme.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@rikyrah:
Where do these CBP assholes get off? Who the hell do they think they are? I’m sure they feel they’re real patriots; where mere blood and land is defined as patriotic, not democracy and the rule of law.
Major Major Major Major
@Bill Arnold: yeah, I kind of got that impression too. Sad!
Gin & Tonic
@Bill Arnold: The irritating aspect is that the pejorative “cosmopolitan” was a Stalinist anti-Semitic term, and Miller is Jewish, descended from immigrants from present-day Belarus.
chris
@Shalimar:
Sex. But I think it’s unlikely.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Major Major Major Major: Quora says they thought his painting sucked and he was poor at depicting people; however, he was cited as having potential for architecture and seems to have been a fairly decent drawer. Since he was a shitty student and otherwise doomed to drudgery, the art school rejection was more like a final straw.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
I’d rather not kill anybody. The person Hitler was when he was younger was not the same dude who authorised the Final Solution. I’d prefer to try to make only positive changes.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
‘Stopping Hitler’ might be the wrong business for you then.
@Shalimar: sure, whatever works. I’d rather not murder babies too.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
I think it would possible to stop Hitler without resorting to murder. Too bad I can’t prove it.
Bill Arnold
@Gin & Tonic:
Agreed of course.
I get irritated when people are ignorant due to propaganda and/or educational malpractice and/or doctrines that mess up minds and/or similar. This type of damage can be hard to repair. (i.e. how do we re-cohere (not necessarily integrate, just make more a part of the conversation) these fringe subpopulations with the rest of American society?)
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: possible, yes, but I’m assuming we’ve got one shot at it and I’d like to be sure.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Major Major Major Major: May I interest you in Hitler’s Time Travel Exemption Act?
Shalimar
News on the Russia sanctions earlier. Trump may have consulted with Putin before signing the bill.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Major Major Major Major: …see also: Godwin’s Law of Time Travel.
Yarrow
@Shalimar: Interesting. Wonder how that goes with this:
Bill Arnold
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
This was pretty refreshing to see here; thanks for it.
What do you suggest that time travelers should do to the baby Rupert Murdoch[1]? When did he turn loopy “conservative”? He was a Thatcherite in the 1980s pretty sure.
[1] Seriously, does anyone have a link to any actual Rupert Murdoch baby pictures? Reasons…
Origuy
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I think it would be better to go back to Sarajevo in 1914 and sit on Gavrilo Princip until Archduke Ferdinand got back to his palace. Prevent WWI and Corporal Hitler never catches a bullet. Germany in 1933 was primed for a dictator. If it hadn’t been Hitler, it might have been someone who didn’t chase away Jewish physicists.
Shalimar
@Yarrow: Weird how that sort of tracks with the “unofficial signing statement” accusing Congress of usurping executive power. Almost like they’re on the same page and the insult to the administration is for show.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Yarrow:
They call him Donald Cuck. And it wouldn’t be the first time in American history Congress has asserted itself as a more powerful branch of government. It happened late in the 19th century I believe.
Brachiator
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Maybe it was a Doctor Who episode that threw out the idea that so many people had gone back in time to try to kill Hitler that a kind of Temporal SS had been invented to intercept them.
I understand your objections to going back in time and killing innocent baby Hitler. How bout going back in time and killing all his grandparents? The idea of Temporal guilt should not be limited to a particular individual if time travel is possible.
Major Major Major Major
Even the Doctor never tries to kill Hitler.
Shalimar
@Bill Arnold: Create some scandal that bankrupts and discredits Murdoch’s early Australian newspaper empire, and he never has the money or influence to expand anywhere else.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Brachiator:
Still immoral. His grandparents aren’t responsible for his crimes.
lahke
@TenguPhule: I thought you were talking about th Vatican–aren’t 5 of them Catholic?
Yarrow
@Shalimar: Yeah, total shocker. Who would’ve thought Trump and Russia would have the same talking points? And Fox? Total coincidence.
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I’ll take Congress even getting in the same vicinity as the concept of being a co-equal branch of government. That’d be nice.
efgoldman
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I’m sorry, but this is a steaming pile of bullshit. No-one should have a moral compunction about killing someone who was responsible for ~20 million deaths.
If he’d not committed suicide, but been captured, the war crimes tribunal would have hanged him.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Origuy:
Preventing WW1 would also postpone the British Empire’s dissolution. France’s too. Britain might be the third superpower longer too.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@efgoldman: I was talking about his grandparents.
Brachiator
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
The rest of my post played with the idea that Temporal guilt extends beyond the targeted individual if time travel were possible. Grandparents are fair game, perhaps even preferable to guarantee that Hitler never be born.
And while we’re at it, let’s take care of Stalin as well.
Major Major Major Major
@Brachiator: Mao too plzthx
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
But River Song gives it a go, in “Let’s Kill Hitler.”
Major Major Major Major
I think it’s something Douglas Adams said, the idea that since everybody who runs into time travel shows it to a younger version of themselves, it turns out that time travel was invented by everybody all at once. Always liked that.
@Brachiator: River is not the doctor, not even a timelord. Of course a *human* would try to kill Hitler. Good episode btw. Don’t they run into a time traveling war crimes tribunal that’s also trying to kill Hitler?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Brachiator:
Hitler and Stalin did live briefly in the same place in 1913:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21859771
And no, I don’t believe in temporal guilt or whatever the fuck that’s supposed to be. You don’t kill the son for a murder the father commits. That’s not justice.
lahke
So, correcting earlier statement. When Scalia was alive, there were 5 Catholics, but Gorsuch seems to have moved from Catholicism to Episcopalian. So 4 Vatican adherents, and one C-lite. On the other hand, Vatican is less right-wing than previously. But a foreign power is still a foreign power….
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
River may have a little time Lord in her, or a bit of TARDIS, or something that makes her more than human. She’s capable of regeneration. Yeah, a fun episode.
And a crazy conceit of the episode is that they prevent Hitler being brought to justice.
Very timey wimey.
Brachiator
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
If time travel were really possible, the idea of culpability and justice would have to be seriously re-examined.
SgrAstar
@JMG: Wow! Thanks for the fascinating insight. I thought that leak seemed pretty aggressive, comimg from the inside and all.
Shalimar
@lahke: In case you haven’t noticed, Catholic leaders in the U.S. are far more rightwing than the current pope and they basically ignore his guidance. They’re hardly controlled by a foreign power. An evil power, yes, but it’s homegrown evil.
lahke
@Shalimar: Totes true, but mostly I was just snarking on TenguPhule’s post. Why make up a new conspiracy theory when there’s a nice poisonous old one we can brush off and re-use?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Brachiator:
I’m sorry. But I strongly disagree. Maybe if people could see the future, that would be one thing. But how could Hitler’s grandparents have known their spawn would grow up to be history’s greatest monster? They couldn’t have and so therefore murdering them to prevent Hitler’s birth would be fucking evil.
Shalimar
@lahke: Good point. Today is poke Tengu day.
Steve in the ATL
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
As the son of a CIA dude, I am grateful for this sentiment.
Brachiator
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
How could young Hitler know that he would become a monster? If time travel were really a thing, we would be dealing with pre-crime. Guilt, innocence, prevention become more malleable, perhaps. The time traveler, by definition, has information that the grandparents do not. History makes the grandparents guilty, not their personal actions.
Just a thought experiment. Time travel would complicate traditional notions of morality.
Steve in the ATL
@Brachiator: I am not nearly high enough to follow this discussion
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Brachiator:
But “pre-crime” would ignore the context in which ordinary people live everyday. We can try to guess at what consequences our actions will bring, but can never know for certain.
If I told you that making a left turn down a street and getting into an accident with a doctor who was “supposed” to save the person who would create world peace, does that mean that some time traveling do-gooder has the right to murder you? History would not make Hitler’s grandparents guilty. Freedom of choice and intent are still important. That’s complete bullshit, with all due respect.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
Did you ever read Ira Levin’s The Boys From Brazil? It goes on sale at the Kindle Store pretty often, and it holds up surprisingly well.
A huge part of the evil scheme in the book is that they created dozens of Hitler clones and replicated Hitler’s family circumstances as best they could, but assumed that at best only one or two of them would develop into the next Hitler, and it was possible that none would do it at all. Because, of course, genetics are not destiny.
Technocrat
@Brachiator:
If you kill Hitler as a baby, he doesn’t commit any crimes. You’ve killed an innocent infant.