I thought that the impeachment of Bill Clinton was ridiculous. And I’ll go one step further: if the worst thing that Mueller finds on Trump is that Trump lied about an affair before a civil jury, then I don’t think Trump should be impeached either.
That’s why it’s strange to me that Ken Starr, who prosecuted Clinton, and Jonathan Turley, who testified in favor of impeaching Clinton, are leading the charge against Robert Mueller. If we use the standard they used for the impeachment of Clinton, then probably Trump should be impeached. If we use a more reasonable standard, then, well, I don’t know. It’s early to say, but given how much he’s lied about contact with Russia already, it’s likely that he’ll also lie, or already has lied, about it under oath. Whether those lies merit impeachment, or whether there are other issues beyond those lies, I can’t say yet.
It’s worth nothing noting that a higher percentage of the population supports impeaching Trump (PPP and Monmouth put it in the low-to-mid 40s) than supported impeaching Clinton (Gallup and NYT had it in the mid 30s).
There’s one more funny parallel I’d like to mention between the two impeachment cases. As Clinton’s impeachment case unfolded, it’s fair to say that the public generally opposed impeachment while the media generally favored it. Yet we never heard much about how it was bad to anger the public by impeaching an elected president. Now, we’re told again and again that even if Trump committed impeachable offenses, and even if a majority of the public approves of impeaching Trump, there’s still a danger in impeaching Trump because it will upset his base.
The reasoning is that Trump’s base supposedly consists largely of disillusioned members of the white working-class who haven’t gotten a fair shake in our economy. Gee, I wonder if there was a group of people who loved Bill Clinton and had every fight to feel disillusioned about how they had been treated historically in this country? But aside from the New Yorker article I linked to there, I never once heard that as an argument against impeaching Clinton.
If I were a Trumpite, I’d try to keep comparisons to Clinton’s impeachment to a minimum. But I hope that Starr and Turley are so broken up about the one that got away that they spend as much time on tv as they can, to remind viewers of what happened twenty years ago.
germy
I love how Tom Toles can capture the essence of a person with just a few lines.
Shouldn’t we be investigating Ken Starr?
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
They’re a bunch of fucking hypocritical Republicans. But I repeat myself.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Nothing surprises me about Starr or Turley. One is a religious fanatic and nutty partisan (also, I’m pretty sure a pervert, but that’s not cromulent here), the other a precious, preening contrarian.
Not a lawyer, but somebody would have to convince me that firing Comey wasn’t obstruction of justice (he said it flat out) and the “tapes” tweet was an attempt at witness intimidation.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Doug!:
“Noting,” surely?
allium
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: There’s that liberal echo chamber again. /s
efgoldman
Newtnik and his gang were going to impeach Clinton over something, they didn’t care what. His and HRC’s finances turned out to be above board, so they couldn’t tag him for that. Asshole Bible Banger Ken Starr searched and searched under every rock until he found Monica.
I think it’s a reasonable assumption that Tangerine Torquemada and his merry clan have engaged, and probably are still engaging in, financial irregularities and criminal fraud in massive ways. I’ve predicted from the beginning that money laundering for foreign entities (specifically Russian interests) will be his downfall.
Couldn’t hapen to a more deserving snake.
Roger Moore
It seems pretty clear they have him dead to rights for obstruction of justice. It’s also worth considering why somebody with pardon power would obstruct justice to protect an underling. If his goal is to protect them, he could just pardon them if they’re found guilty of anything. It seems far more likely he’s doing it to protect his own sorry ass from whatever they might reveal in a thorough investigation.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
since the post is categories “Assholes”, this is on topic
just saw Lonesome Jeff sad-facing about how Republicans didn’t stand up to birtherism, and now Rhona Romney McDaniel, from the sane sober establishment, has hired this racist clown
ETA: Like uncle, like niece. Willard embraced trump because of birtherism.
The Moar You Know
I don’t know about Starr (truth is I thought he was dead, and news of his aliveness is a bit of a shock) but Turley, of whom I was once an active reader/commenter, became an unhinged lunatic after Obama was elected. Any attempt to prosecute Trump he’s going to see as the Obama folks trying to wreak revenge on Trump for destroying Obama’s legacy.
Iowa Old Lady
I was around for both the Nixon and the Clinton impeachments. The difference I saw was that the congressional hearing had convinced a big portion of the country that Nixon was guilty. In contrast, most people I knew rolled their eyes at the Clinton impeachment. They saw it as a way to undo an election. Mind you, they thought Clinton was a horndog. They just didn’t believe that had anything to do with governing the country.
For that reason, I’d like to see us approach any impeachment of Trump slowly. Give people time to absorb any findings.
TriassicSands
Agreed, but that’s easy to say, since I believe Trump has already committed impeachable offenses on which the House should be acting.
Doug, I really don’t think that is worth noting, since polling is likely based more on popularity than on actual transgressions. In the case of 30+% for Clinton, that might be more serious for him than 40% is for Trump, since Clinton was much more popular than Trump is. On the other hand, that 30% probably represented wingnuts who would have impeached Clinton for being a Democrat/communist. While I don’t think Democrats have such low standards, many may believe that Trump should be removed from office because of the threat he poses both to our institutions and to world peace.
In the end, do I favor impeaching Trump because I hate him or because I think he’s committed “high crimes and misdemeanors?” The latter. I think the House should threaten to impeach him for violations of the emoluments clause and, if Trump is willing to agree to full and meaningful divestiture, that would be the end of those proceedings. The precedent he has set in that area is disastrous and needs to be dealt with — as always, the best interests of the country are secondary (or worse) to the Republicans.
The Russia investigation and any offshoots are separate from the above.
eric
Starr has the Baylor legacy too. He has the moral standing of a pedophile. Fuck him.
ETA. My apologies to pedophiles.
MisterForkbeard
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Seriously? They hired the person who literally signed on for a pro-Trump State-sponsored ‘news’ gig as the party spokesperson?
They’re not even pretending these days.
The Moar You Know
Also, FWIW, I think impeachment of Trump, unless initiated by the GOP, would be Dem suicide. Unless we have 67 Dem votes in the Senate to convict. And we won’t.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
as you say, I think public hearings are crucial, and I think trump’s already clear offense are a steaming, stinking, two-ton mastodon turd in middle of our national parlor. I hope Impeachment Now! doesn’t become (yet another) new litmus test
trollhattan
@The Moar You Know:
Starr’s behavior at Baylor should preclude his ever appearing in public again, much less propped in front of a camera, but there he is anyway. What a nozzle.
Karen
I thought the impeachment charges against Bill Clinton were really stupid, especially after discovering that those who lead the charge were busy having affairs and engaging in the same behavior they were charging Bill with.
What bothered me more than anything, at the time, was I was big sistering and spent hours explaining to teens that a blow job was sex no matter what the President said.
If lying were a crime? the only people left in DC would be the support staff, by that I mean those who provide actual services not those whose jobs are to support the “elected liars”
bystander
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It’s the prissy lips.
I find it less striking that Starr wants to bloviate publicly than that the media are willing to quote him and give him a microphone. After the ignominious ending of his career at Pepperdine, you’d think he’d be treated as the creepo he is.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
and even more the weary, patronizing, “Do I really have to explain this to you?” tone of voice.
schrodingers_cat
It wasn’t that long ago when Turdley was a favorite guest on Rachel Maddow’s show.
CS
who have lots of guns.
I don’t think we can ignore the always-present subtext here. There was a woman on Fox News last Thursday or Friday who predicted that there would be an uprising if any of Trump’s children were indicted over anything to come out of Mueller’s investigations. Her later tweet didn’t use the word “uprising,” but she used it on-air. Ted Nugent has a similar quote making the rounds on Facebook. I’m sure there are more. Anybody checked on Joe Walsh lately?
“Don’t do anything we don’t like, or we’ll shoot you” has been part of the Republican undercurrent for decades. This is just more of the same. I really don’t think “the Trump-types will be sad” is the message here.
Jeffro
Fuck Trumpov and fuck his base too – I don’t care about angering either of them, I just want him out of there and facing justice, as he deserves.
On an anti-Trumpov note, Jennifer Rubin takes a moment away from the DJT-bashing she’s so good at to delineate “What a Republican anti-Trump Agenda Should Look Like“, with 10 basic planks or principles. Go on, take a look…it’s the WaPo, it’s ok to click.
I challenge you all to join me in politely emailing Ms. Rubin and let her know there’s not a one of those 10 principles that aren’t already being upheld by the Democratic Party. She suggests that anti-Trump Republicans might “…stage primary challenges, create a third party, or run as independents.” Let her know they have another option, and a really good one at that!
Jeffro
I can haz moderator help for a disappeared comment, please?
The Moar You Know
@eric: Did some reading. He sure likes the kidfuckers, doesn’t he?
Roger Moore
@Iowa Old Lady:
This. Right now, we should be focusing on investigating Trump and his minions, not talking about impeachment. If the investigation turns up solid evidence of impeachable offenses, we can move on to talking about impeachment. Talking about impeachment when the investigation has barely started is putting the cart before the horse.
bystander
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: The world is Turley’s second tier law school Con Law class this semester.
ETA Condescension is the most fun when you can inflict it on a captive audience. Turley may have mistaken Maddow as a student in one of his classes, hence his disappearance.
randy khan
@CS:
When I saw that, I laughed. Nobody will come to the defense of Ivanka, DJT, Jr. or Eric. Nobody cares about them.
randy khan
@Jeffro:
Me, too!
A Ghost to Most
@germy:
Tom Toles is an American treasure.
chopper
@Roger Moore:
if I were trump (ugh) I’d be scared to death of the possibility of having to testify in the same manner Clinton did. he’d be boned.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
Trump should be impeached for gross incompetence, let alone rampant corruption and/or espionage/treason. He’s an existential threat not just to American democracy but to the rest of humanity. He’s not a stable man and I hope Putin knows what he’s doing. He’s messing with something that could potentially get 1/7 of the world’s population or more killed. This isn’t like meddling in elections in Kazakhstan or something.
randy khan
If I didn’t know better (since he’s about as sanctimonious as they come), I’d think Starr was joking. The idea that he has the temerity to show his face after what happened at Baylor under his watch is incredible.
A Ghost to Most
@efgoldman:
I believe the asshole is a given, but Starr is an extra large asshole.
HeleninEire
Watching one of the last EPs of Downtown Abbey. Was on regular TV here. And now I am watching all the eps after on Nexflix. One ep to the end. Jeebus I live this show.
germy
@HeleninEire: I read somewhere they’re planning a full-length film.
Doug!
@schrodingers_cat:
Yeah, I didn’t find his stuff about impeaching Bush that convincing either.
mai naem mobile
I cannot.believe this moron entertains himself on Twitter because rain cancelled his golfing. Good gawd, we’re really dealing with a child. He needs to be put in time out and grounded forever with no cellphone and computer privileges for four years.
raven
@HeleninEire: I gave up when they were all shocked when Mathew was paralyzed and they didn’t know he couldn’t sire a child.
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
Have always greatly admired his Trump. His SHS there is perfect. May there be many more occasions for him to draw her.
catclub
@Steeplejack (phone):
It has been fixed, but I would say that either way is still true.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
Agree – but I can’t see how past affairs would matter, and I think it’s unlikely he’ll engage in any while in office because I’d bet many monies he’s impotent.
As long as I’m betting, here’s how I’d wager the Trump presidency* ends: As his dementia progresses, his already shaky impulse control is further reduced and he engages in more and more inappropriate, sexually aggressive behavior. He starts with lewd remarks (he came damned close with Brigitte Macron) and proceeds to grab-assing, while aides and apologists claim each incident is innocuous – the woman lied, or the witnesses lied, or she was a willing participant, or it was just some variant on locker-room talk. Eventually, he’s caught on camera unequivocally molesting a suitably “innocent” victim, in a way that can’t be explained away. The family announces with heavy hearts that he’s just a sad old man who needs care and love and that he will resign and withdraw from public life. President Jesus takes over.
I watched that type of behavior manifest in my grandfather as his dementia progressed. It’s sadly not uncommon.
Doug!
@TriassicSands:
It wouldn’t be if the media didn’t constantly cite Trump’s popularity with “his base” as a reason not impeach him. (I agree with you that a president’s popularity shouldn’t be factored into the proceedings.)
gene108
I support impeachment. I don’t care it is Trump, Pence, Ryan or Hatch in the White House. I want a fucking Republican President impeached.
I’m tired of playing nice with those assholes.
Roger Moore
@CS:
I don’t think the guns are the subtext when the media talks about it. What they never bother to say is that Trump’s supporters are salt-of-the-earth white folks, who are the people who really matter. It doesn’t matter if you piss off the Democrats’ base because they’re a bunch of weirdos- minorities, LGBTQ people, religious outsiders, etc.- who are basically a bunch of unimportant outsiders. It’s the same dynamic that makes them dismiss Democratic victories because they didn’t win a majority of white votes.
Patricia Kayden
@efgoldman: What I find so hilarious about Ken Starr is that he pretty much wrote a pornographic screed in order to get President Clinton impeached. Porn scripts aren’t as filthy as what he wrote in his puritanical zeal to oust Clinton over a consensual affair. For him to come out swinging against Mueller for overreach or anything else takes a whole lot of balls.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Hear, hear. I hate the “Pence would be worse” argument. I happen to think Pence would be even weaker, but in the ways that matter in the long-term, mostly judicial appointments, I think Pence and his kind are calling the shots now.
@raven: I stayed with it because of Maggie Smith and a few other characters/actors, but there wasn’t a cheap daytime soap opera trick Fellows didn’t pull out of the bag.
PhoenixRising
@Roger Moore:
Yeah, assumption of facts not in evidence: That Trump understands that.
He is really, really quite stupid, and often commits a felony when a stern look would have gotten the same results. It’s sad, really.
Tom Q
If anything, Doug understates the public opposition to Clinton’s impeachment. The very week that the Monica story broke — and the press went into heat for immediate expulsion — Clinton’s approval ratings shot up to unnaturally high numbers. It was as if the only way the public could block the attempted railroading was to give outlandish approvals. (Outlandish in the sense that normal partisanship sets a reasonable upward limit for any president except in exceptional times — FDR after Pearl Harbor and Bush after 9/11 other examples of the latter.) The press (and GOP) nonetheless persisted for a year-plus, but every time they detected a softening of Clinton’s numbers and tried to pounce, the public returned to Clinton’s side. (A few days after the Articles of Impeachment were voted, one poll showed him at 72% approve!) The attempt to toss Clinton out was vehemently unpopular from start to finish.
Trump is a whole other story. Already you have a not-insignificant percentage of the public ready to oust him, and this is before Mueller has made any public case. If the buzzed-around reports are anything like true (and I’m not talking just Mensch-ite rumors, but things I’ve heard from more grounded sources), the number of people favoring impeachment could go into Nixon territory. (As they should, because Nixon’s crimes were, staggeringly, small-bore compared to what it appears Trump & Co. may have done.)
As for Starr and Turley — Starr is a pathetic partisan; Turley wanted Clinton gone so bad he could taste it. Neither man’s opinion matters a damn to me. But that fact that Turley — and too many in the DC pundit class — are far more cautious about wanting Trump tried than they were when it came to Bill (or even Hillary) simply demonstrates Josh Marshall’s theorem that, since Reagan’s time, Washington has been wired for Republicans. The obsession with/exaltation of Trump’s ignorant base voters is just another manifestation of that.
Patricia Kayden
@mai naem mobile: Naw let him rage tweet away. His continued petulance clearly shows that he was never qualified for the position he holds with such derision. Can you imagine the outrage from the Right had President Obama made any negative comments about the condition of the White House? And I wish he would spend all of his time on the golf course. That would mean that he’d spend even less time “governing” from the White House.
Barbara
@trollhattan: He may be the most extreme version of the phenomenon of conservatives finding empathy only after they are personally affected. Now that Starr has been on the receiving end of a reputation shattering investigation he suddenly thinks he understands what it means to engage in investigative overkill, not to mention insight into the desire of human beings to cover up for their sexual sins. He is a slow learner because he still seems not to get the role of consent in defining when sexual behavior should be investigated and when it should be left alone. But, anyway, it’s incredible that he still thinks he has anything to teach us after the Baylor debacle.
SiubhanDuinne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Agreed. I’m disturbed at the number of variations on “If you think Trump should be impeached, sign this petition!” on FB and in my email. Taking premature action, before Three Sticks has a chance to gather and lay out the evidence and before we can count votes in both chambers of Congress, almost guarantees failure.
Patricia Kayden
@randy khan: Chutzpah!!** He’s got it.
**shameless audacity; impudence.
cmorenc
@Karen:
But…it doesn’t cost the same (!)
(RELAX: reference is to a line from comedian Ron White’s “Dickin’ Around with Tiger Woods” skit).
A Ghost to Most
These folks seem nice:
thetrace.org
Immanentize
@raven: I actually gave up at the end of the first season when they used the “first lover from Egypt dies in bed” deus ex machina to drive the narrative. It could only get worse.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Immanentize:
Turkey, actually. Still the Ottoman Empire at the time. I watched the whole series without analysing it and I enjoyed it.
Frankensteinbeck
@Roger Moore:
Yes, I think it’s this. The press doesn’t see a problem with white male vuolence, and outside FOX I doubt they think revolution is likely. It’s losing the votes of whites, and especially white men they’re referring to, for the reasons you cite.
SiubhanDuinne
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
I won’t take that bet, but I’m seeing a yuuuuge uptick in open speculation about exactly what role Hope Hicks plays in his life.
TriassicSands
@mai naem mobile:
Sorry, but the Bill of Rights expressly bars “cruel and unusual punishment.” What could be more cruel than taking away Trump’s favorite toy?
(What could be more unusual than a grown man tweeting his outrage day after day?)
Roger Moore
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Especially because a Pence who took over after Trump was driven from office would be severely weakened. Maybe he’d be able to slide far enough out from the cloud of suspicion that he wouldn’t be driven from office himself, but Trump is going to put a big ugly black mark on the whole party, Pence included.
TriassicSands
@Doug!:
And I’ll grant your point about the media constantly emphasizing Trump’s popularity with his base.
Mike Furlan
IOKIYAR, IACIYAD
It is OK if you are a Republican, It is a crime if you are a Democrat.
I thought this was known by everybody by now.
https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/11/iokiyar-and-iaciyad/
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Roger Moore: Gonna be hard for Pence, or anyone else, to give the Deplorables the hate high trump has gotten them used to.
They keep showing the X-Minute Hate from WV on TV, I’m fascinated by a scrawny guy over his shoulder who keeps wildly gesticulating while the Beast snarls.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Why? Star was clearly never intrested in the rule of law.
Patricia Kayden
@Mike Furlan: How did we get to this point where Republicans can get away with everything and Democrats get zinged for minutia? How did we get to the point where cries of “Liberal bias” have now led to the MSM claiming that both sides do it even in situations where it’s obvious that Republicans are the only ones to blame? For some reasons Conservatives demand respect from the media and get it while our side can barely get on Sunday political shows to give our side of the story.
Barbara
@Roger Moore: Pence would be especially weak if he, like Ford, began making liberal use of his pardon power. He would also be subject to extreme ratf*cking by those who still supported Trump, including by people like Assange or GG.
Gelfling 545
@cmorenc: A friend who was a City Court judge at the time told me that he had to explain to defendants on several occasions that yes, oral acts were constiuted sex acts. I imagine it originates from a lot of the dodges young women used to have to go through to claim they’d never had “sex” before marriage.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Gelfling 545: I understand the “oral doesn’t count” theory is big on Xian college campuses. And with Elvis and Priscilla.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
“It’s worth nothing noting that a higher percentage of the population supports impeaching Trump (PPP and Monmouth put it in the low-to-mid 40s) ”
I’d like to see what Miller turns up first before talk of Impeachment. Starting with a conclusion and then looking for evidence to support it is what the evil side does. Right now, If there is any argument for removing Trump from office it’s he’s clearly dangerously to incompetent for it.
Roger Moore
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
My understanding is that it’s closer to “only vaginal counts”, so anal is also popular.
joel hanes
@raven:
Mathew was paralyzed and they didn’t know he couldn’t sire a child.
FWIW, one of my family’s friends was one of the last people in our community to be paralyzed by polio.
He did the iron lung thing and survived, but was paralyzed below the lowest ribs.
He had two sons that were indubitably genetically his.
We didn’t inquire closely as to the measures required,
but I don’t think it was a turkey baster situation,
and in vitro fertilization was not yet an option at the time to which I refer.
He was a brilliant man, and his intelligent and thoughtful wife was devoted to him; somehow they found a way.
SatanicPanic
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I hate it because it just means we’d rather not do the right thing because maybe something bad will happen. That devalues our argument about how terrible Trump is.
zhena gogolia
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
It was a big fat, beautifully acted, beautifully costumed Trollope novel on teevee. What’s not to love?
Roger Moore
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
You forgot corrupt.
jl
The keen logical minds of Starr and Turley (and I suppose Lil’ Newtie) are just following ‘Up-is-downism’ to it’s logical conclusion for every single jot, tittle, and sundry everythings of this life.
ruemara
1. Pence is already in charge of most domestic policy.
2. after reading some of the comments from the morning thread, you know, you should just point blank tell these conservatives you’re related to or friends with that they can keep repeating the propaganda, but both of you know they backed a treasonous motherfucker and communism over America and everything they’re saying now is just to make themselves feel better. Never fail to point out that they willingly backed a losing motherfucker and everything they’re saying now is to make themselves feel better.
3. Whether you impeach or not, fast or slow, you should be expecting violence. You should expect your police are 1/3 traitorous. These people have power and see victory within their grasp but we refuse to just let them roll back most of the 20th century. They’re getting angrier and angrier as they fail to be the master race, the economic wunderkinds and they’re the clowns of the world thanks to the Tangerine Tyrant. They weren’t half as organized or mad as they were during Clinton’s administration and we got the Oklahoma bombing. Of course they’re going to lash out more. That’s why hate crimes are up. But I’m fairly sure that as things progress, conservatives will have the domestic terror they’ve been hankering for. As long as I’ve been alive, these twits have been waiting for a race war. Dylan Roof was the age of my favorite cowboy boots and he was trying to start the race war with his murders. They wanted this and they want escalation and violence. You’re not going to dissuade them by reason.
Major Major Major Major
@zhena gogolia: banal complaints about some plot points, evidently.
Mike Furlan
@Patricia Kayden: How did we get here? Here is one explanation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
“Inverted totalitarianism is described as a system where corporations have corrupted and subverted democracy and where economics trumps politics.”
Probably too late to stop, we’ll just see a continuation of the current trend as corporate power continues to squeeze more and more out of our society until at some point in the future they bleed one drop too much and kill the host.
But her emails. . .
ruemara
@Roger Moore: Yes to both. When I was fundy, I was shocked at the fact that so many of my teen peers had that view. I mean, seriously? It’s all sex, honey.
@SiubhanDuinne: I’ve been hearing that too. Ugh. Anyone willing to get close to that repellent dung hill must be mentally damaged.
waspuppet
It’s remarkable how, among the Beltway Media Stars, impeachment has gone in 20 years from being something that actually happened to some forgotten legalistic clause that “Yeah, technically it still exists I guess but but c’mon really?” Like it’s a law about requiring wheels instead of runners on your horse-drawn wagon, or not eating pickles on Sundays.
By “remarkable,” of course, I mean “yet another symbol of how Republicanism is more important than America.”
I also wonder whether there might be a few people who are kinda ticked off that the candidate they voted for, and who got more votes, isn’t president. But of course they aren’t Real Americans so who cares?
efgoldman
@CS:
We absolutely can and should. Fuck the keyboard militias. They’ll call the talk shows, and write threatening web comments, and then sit back on the couch and drink more beer. .
And yes, there are genuine crazies out there who can and will do real harm. They’ll do what they do anyway. There won’t be more of them, the marginal assholes won’t be any more motivated.
Mock them.
Disrespect them
Do not patronize them
Turn them in
Fuckem
Enhanced Voting Techniques
sigh, the best lines are always wasted on the Conservatives “Look, I know Trump’s Russia collusion is a youthful indiscretion and we should all move on, like Pence’s emailing pictures of himself naked, GW Bush murdering hookers in Juarez, and Romany’s video of him showering with a suite on, but what I don’t get is how Clinton and that woman in Arkansas is any different. Perhaps it’s my Cosmopolitan Bias but you will have to explain it to me”
debbie
@efgoldman:
My favorite moment remains when Bob Livingston, one of Clinton’s noisiest scolds, was forced to acknowledge his own transgressions. He paused, then announced he was quitting his job and demanded that Clinton do the same.
We’re dealing with amoralists. They will always be like this.
SatanicPanic
@efgoldman: This
Mike J
@Karen:
Although in the lawsuit that was the subject of the “I did not have sex with that woman” speech, the plaintiff had defined sex as intercourse only. By the rules in use in the trial, he told the truth. The speech however was using the rules of everyday English.
Brachiator
Really?
It’s true that when the case for impeachment was first made, newspapers clutched their moral pearls.
But as the case unfolded, the press called BS on the attempt to stick it to Bill Clinton.
From a CNN article of the period.
Karen
@cmorenc: Well, it went better than having to explain to girls that standing up during sex won’t keep you from getting pregnant and candy wrappers don’t work as well as condoms. This is what scares me about Pence in office, he doesn’t believe in sex education.
Ruckus
@eric:
LMAO at your ETA
Roger Moore
@waspuppet:
Sure. They genuinely believed that Clinton should have been removed from office. When it didn’t happen, they thought that meant that impeachment was a dead letter. That impression can only have been cemented by failure to impeach W for lying to get us into Iraq and Obama for killing those people in Benghazi. It’s obviously ridiculous for the Democrats to bring it up again now!
Quinerly
Speaking of assholes…Alan Dershowitz on Ari Melber’s show.
debbie
@HeleninEire:
Did you ever watch Brideshead Revisited?
SenyorDave
On Outside the beltway, commentator Michael Reynolds, referred to Trump as amoral pig. I think its a very succinct way to describe Trump, and many of his people (Gingrich, Giuliani, Christie, etc.). Hypocritical assholes describes a large portion of the GOP. That Turley, who pushed for Clinton’s impeachment, is now schilling for Trump is the height of absurdity. I would love to hear how he squares that circle.
Matt McIrvin
@ruemara: Do you think it’s as low as 1/3?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@debbie: It wasn’t on TV, but I’m partial to the story that when Hyde and the other impeachment managers had their first post-impeachment meeting with Trent Lott, and his wig, Lott said, “you’re not gonna dump this shit on my desk, Henry”.
Also, while he was a disgusting human being, Strom Thurmond used to bring a couple of those mini-oranges to one of the Clinton lawyers every morning, a very attractive young African-American woman, I wanna say Cheryl Mills? I think that reflected the level of seriousness most of the Senate brought to the whole process.
Villago Delenda Est
All of this stems from Ford letting Tricky Dick off the hook for Tricky Dick’s crimes.
Lee Hartmann
by “strange” you mean “reliable R hacks with no self-awareness or ethics (see, e.g., Baylor University).
ruemara
@Matt McIrvin: I’m trying to have a positive outlook.
A Ghost to Most
@efgoldman:
All of this. Fuckem.
I sometimes worry about what those fucking people are capable of, but then I remember how gutlessly most of them have lived their lives.
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The wig always won, didn’t it?
SiubhanDuinne
@debbie:
I’m not Helen, but I can assure you (if you’re talking about the original series, with Jeremy Irons and Anthony Andrews) it is one of my top-of-the-list, all-time favourite Masterpiece Theatre-type presentations. Bonus: Laurence Olivier and John Gielgud as parental units.
rikyrah
@gene108:
I feel you
Ruckus
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
At the first home that my father lived in (Alzheimer’s) sort of like a hotel with a common dinning room, the staff told me that it wasn’t unusual for the patients to have relations. They were still adults with libidos and as most days were completely new to them, affairs were not uncommon. As long as they were both consenting, what could the staff do?
Brachiator
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I agree. Pence might be worse, but Trump is absolutely unfit to be president, and is incapable of executing the duties of the office with any competence.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@debbie: Trent Lott’s Wig will give Trent Lott’s eulogy.
they’ve been very close for a long time
randy khan
@ruemara:
I’ve discovered over the years that fundamentalists can be downright Talmudic in their hair-splitting about the rules that they want to avoid.
debbie
@SiubhanDuinne:
Oh, the movie was beyond horrible!
The original series ranks as my all-time favorite. I had it on VHS and would watch it a couple times a year until my VCR gave out. Now I get it on DVD from my library. I just cannot grow tired of watching it. Every single actor and actress was absolutely perfect for their part!
Oh, Charles, don’t be a bore!
SiubhanDuinne
@randy khan:
Yeah, and don’t forget the Jesuits.
Quinerly
Daily Caller reporting that Trump is upset over the new book Devil’s Bargain: Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, and the Storming of the Presidency because the book claims Bannon had a major role in the victory. He also has been complaining about the November Forbes cover piece that claimed Kushner was the mastermind of the campaign. True to form, that’s for sure.
Brachiator
@Karen:
Those were more innocent times. Today, you would have to discuss whether auto-fell@tio is still sex.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Brachiator:
But Both Sides!
patrick II
There really is no one I like less than Ken Starr. I suppose because he disabused me of all of my childhood fantasies about the integrity of being a judge. He was a judge, then the U.S. Solicitor General, then as a independent investigator re-investigated the death of Vince Foster, the White House Travel Office, Rose Law Firm, Paula Jones law suit, White Water (whom he threw someone in jail for for not lying about Clinton) and eventually Monica Lewinsky, whom Clinton had an affair with and Starr sexually abused by her public humiliation.
Then, among other misdeeds (including a letter of support for a friend accused of raping five teens), he suppressed rape allegations against Baylor football players. For which I would love some prosecutor somewhere to do something about — but nada.
Anyhow, now he comes back all pompous and self-righteous and a “good Christian” lecturing us on Mueller’s “runaway” investigation. If you want a right-wing poster boy for abuse of privilege, a pompously righteousness sinner pointing out the speck of sawdust in another’s eye while ignoring the plank in his own, Ken Starr is your man, a truly evil twit,
Brachiator
@SiubhanDuinne: RE: I’ve discovered over the years that fundamentalists can be downright Talmudic in their hair-splitting about the rules that they want to avoid.
I used to joke that the Jesuits are the only Catholic priests not required to believe in God.
germy
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
And John Bolton’s mustache fell hair to a fortune.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Maybe Kelly could have Barron teach the Rough Beast about Wii golf.
Chitown Kev
I distinctly remember that under one of those articles for impeachment (the ”abuse of power” article that failed when it went before the full House, I think), Starr wanted to impeach Clinton for his 1/26/98 statement that, ”I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.”
Based on that standard of truth telling and the sheer volumes of proven lies by this Administration simply about the Russia affair, Twitler should have been kicked out of office long ago…the hypocrisy of the GOP is simply nauseating.
Gravenstone
@CS: I suspect the gun fondling Trumtaptards will be in for a very rude awakening at how many on our side are capable and willing to defend ourselves and our country.
bemused
@Iowa Old Lady:
Funny, I said the same thing at the time, Bill is a horndog and added that he was Hillary’s problem, not ours.
Turgidson
@bystander:
Newt Gingrich has a permanent seat at the national discourse table, as does Bloody Bill Kristol. The former is a bloviating, hypocritical, fairly racist piece of shit. The latter hasn’t been right about a single thing for at least 20 years, and somehow remains insufferably smug. Yet they both get invited on to “respectable” media damn near every week.
So I’m not particularly surprised that Starr is given this opportunity.
p.a.
@SiubhanDuinne: I liked Andrews in MT’s Danger UXB.
Baud
Given the discussion in this thread, I can’t believe no one linked to this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rjjh9PML8tE
Karen
@Brachiator: I am thankful that don’t have to do that, it was hard enough to deal with back then; the parents were the worst. Often they blindly assumed if they didn’t teach their teens about sex then they wouldn’t think of sex; the fundies still think that way.
Have a couple of family members that are fundie; their children are homeschooled and have no clue, yet their group has a high rate of molestation and incest. One of the girls explained that daddy was teaching her to be a good wife.
Patricia Kayden
@Mike Furlan: From your link:
Yep. Voting was at a 20-year low in November 2016. Of course, some of that is because of GOP voter suppression tactics and Russian interference leading to the demoralization of Clinton supporters.
Baud
@Patricia Kayden: That article is dated right after the election. I thought it turned out that voting was about the same as 2012.
SiubhanDuinne
@p.a.:
Yes! Why don’t more people know about that terrific series?
(For that matter, he was a fine and persuasive Scarlet Pimpernel, opposite, I think, Jane Seymour.)
zhena gogolia
@Chitown Kev:
You said it.
chris
@Roger Moore: The Loophole by Garfunkel and Oates. Definitely NSFW, but funny.
Central Planning
@Roger Moore: “The poophole is not a loophole” – either Betty Bowers from FB or Christians Against Drugs on FB. Both are hilarious.
p.a.
OT and I hope this isn’t a dead thread, but Rachel Held Evans has a new post with lots of links to progressive woman bloggers.
Noncarborundum
I feel sure you mean “right” there, but I wouldn’t object to a little fighting from time to time.
CS
@Gravenstone: True. But there are a lot of bullies on the Right. At the national level, yes, we can mock them, but some of the loudest Trumpers are bullies at home, at their jobs, at their church, wherever. When you shame a bully, you can often back them down. But you run the risk of setting them off, too. And then they’ll turn up the abuse on the ones most vulnerable and closest to hand.
You’re not going to get a national rebellion happening anytime soon, because the national leaders won’t support it. One of the few rules they haven’t broken, yet. But they’ll turn a blind eye, like Trump, to individual acts of violence as long as they can deny their personal involvement. Leaving the rest of us to deal with it. And ramping up the fear and loathing while giving it a free pass when it erupts is worrisome. We should pay attention, especially when someone with a mic and a TV camera is predicting the same thing as a form of permission.
Barry
“That’s why it’s strange to me that Ken Starr, who prosecuted Clinton, and Jonathan Turley, who testified in favor of impeaching Clinton, are leading the charge against Robert Mueller. ”
What’s strange about it? Right-wing apparachniks are hypocrites and liars.
The whole Clinton thing was that that right realized that there were no limits other than institutional self-restraint, which the right didn’t have.
J R in WV
@bystander:
His career as president at Baylor, a “good” Baptist school with a football team founded on players raping students, was at least as ignominious as his career at Pepperdine. He didn’t even try to control those guys. By which I mean the coaches, who were in charge of the F’n team.
tobie
This is a little out there but did anyone hear Senator Blumenthal say on the Chris Hayes show that the Russians hacked–or tried to hack–the voting machines in the last election. It’s the first time I’ve heard an elected official say that. Usually they defend the integrity of the election and argue instead about the sustained disinformation campaign. This was different.
Omnes Omnibus
@debbie: I love that Cordelia Flyte grew up to be Lady Flintshire.
Brachiator
@Karen:
It’s not just fundies. Lots of parents are embarrassed. I remember watching a documentary put together by high school kids with their own video equipment. One kid filmed her own mother being evasive and just not wanting to talk about it. Then, while alone, the kid delivered the kicker. “She doesn’t want to talk about it at all. And my mom is a nurse.”
J R in WV
@ruemara:
Probably not, ruemara. I’m pretty obviously left wing, even getting a haircut didn’t really hide that. So I have a CCW permit, and a .45 auto pistol, much like my Grandma’s carry pistol, which was a Colt .32 auto pistol, designed by the same guy that developed the 1911 .45… I’ve been shooting since I was 12 or so, back in the early 1960s.
I think every Democratic supporter needs to get a carry permit, and training in shooting, in order to defend ourselves against fascists with guns, who need to learn not to pick on liberals.
artem1s
I also would have no problem with giving Dolt45 a pass if his ‘crime’ was some personal indiscretion. I felt exactly the same way about the whole Bush Crime Family. But the reality is the GOP, since Nixon, has insisted that they get to run investigation after investigation on Dems (especially the Clintons) but should never, ever have to endure the same level of scrutiny themselves. They want to be endlessly fishing because it casts doubt on someone, not because there is anything behind those suspicions.
Truth is, Newt, Hastert, any Bush, most GOPers and NO member of FamiliaDolt45 could endure 1/100 of the scrutiny that Bill and Hillary was put thru. Starr had his grubby fingers in the Clinton’s underwear drawer for 5 years and found zip, zero, nada. Not so much as a bad check. He had to invent a scandal around a consensual sexual relationship that hadn’t even started when he was first hired. Every time HRC gave testimony, from Travelgate to the Gowdy Flopsweat Benghazi hearing, she pantsed every GOPer involved.
Dolt45 thinks that threatening more Hillary hearings will deter the Dems from pursuing investigations? HRC says bring it on MFers. Go for it. Reap the whirlwind. I fucking dare you.
PIGL
@CS: Well, fine. Let them learn once and for all how well civilian irregulars fare against modern elite military forces backed by bear omniscient surveillance.
Hint: not very.