Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

You can’t love your country only when you win.

Tick tock motherfuckers!

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

The revolution will be supervised.

He really is that stupid.

It’s time for the GOP to dust off that post-2012 autopsy, completely ignore it, and light the party on fire again.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

You cannot shame the shameless.

The GOP is a fucking disgrace.

American History and Black History Cannot Be Separated

We are aware of all internet traditions.

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

The willow is too close to the house.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

You are here: Home / Politics / America / More from the Charlottesville Rally: Improvised Vehicular Weapon

More from the Charlottesville Rally: Improvised Vehicular Weapon

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Earlier today at the rally and counter-rally in Charlottesville it appears that someone deliberately drove what appears to be a grey Dodge Charger into a silver convertible, which then rear ended a burgundy minivan or crossover SUV. From the video it appears that the driver of the Charger accelerated into the convertible. A number of people were injured.

In this second video you can see the Charger reversing at high speed and fleeing the scene:

Several state legislators, all of whom, so far, happen to be Republicans, have drafted and/or submitted legislation to indemnify drivers who run over protestors.

Drivers who run into protesters would be protected from lawsuits under new proposed legislation in Tennessee.

The bill offered by a pair of Republicans would apply only to instances in which drivers are “exercising due care” when they strike someone “participating in a protest or demonstration” that is “blocking traffic in a public right-of-way.”

A second clause in the half-page bill clarifies, “A person shall not be immune from civil liability if the actions leading to the injury were willful or wanton.”

The new bill is similar to one offered in January by a North Dakota legislator who said his mother-in-law’s path was blocked by protesters opposed to an oil pipeline.

“There’s a line between protesting and terrorism, and what we’re dealing with was terrorism out there,” North Dakota state Rep. Keith Kempenich, a Republican, told The Washington Post about his bill.

Similar legislation has also been put forward in North Carolina.

Drivers who hit a protester who’s blocking the road couldn’t be sued for injuries if they “exercise due care,” under a bill that passed the N.C. House on Thursday.

House Bill 330, approved in a 67-48 vote, comes in response to protests last fall in Charlotte. Protesters upset about the police shooting of Keith Lamont Scott blocked interstate highways and other roads in the city.

The bill’s sponsor, Republican Rep. Justin Burr of Albemarle, said drivers wouldn’t be allowed to deliberately run over protesters.

“This bill does not allow for the driver of a vehicle to target protesters intentionally,” he said. “It does protect individuals who are rightfully trying to drive down the road.”

The other legislators who have drafted similar legislation in other places have all made or issued statements similar to NC State Representative Burr that these laws will not allow a driver to deliberately target protestors. However, that is not necessarily the thinking among everyone. For instance everyone’s favorite “conservative intellectual*” got suspended from Twitter for suggesting:

Reynolds then issued a clarification on his website.

UPDATE: Ah, it was about this tweet.

Sorry, blocking the interstate is dangerous, and trapping people in their cars and surrounding them is a threat. Driving on is self-preservation, especially when we’ve had mobs destroying property and injuring and killing people. But if Twitter doesn’t like me, I’m happy to stop providing them with free content.

ANOTHER UPDATE: Was just on Hugh Hewitt talking about this. Since Twitter won’t let me respond to — or even see — my critics, let me expand here.

I’ve always been a supporter of free speech and peaceful protest. I fully support people protesting police actions, and I’ve been writing in support of greater accountability for police for years.

But riots aren’t peaceful protest. And blocking interstates and trapping people in their cars is not peaceful protest — it’s threatening and dangerous, especially against the background of people rioting, cops being injured, civilian-on-civilian shootings, and so on. I wouldn’t actually aim for people blocking the road, but I wouldn’t stop because I’d fear for my safety, as I think any reasonable person would.

“Run them down” perhaps didn’t capture this fully, but it’s Twitter, where character limits stand in the way of nuance.

The larger issue is that Reynold’s off the cuff formulation, as well as the clarification from his tweet got picked up far and wide. Here is an article on the subject be a member of the President’s 2nd Amendment advisory committee.  While the article is fairly nuanced, the comments are, of course, completely off the map.

The problem with today’s incident is whether the nuance that is the signal has gotten lost in the noise that is the anger and hatred within the alt-right and this has now been socially learned as a definition neutralizing to prohibited behavior. It is important to note the learning component here may also include borrowing this as a technique from similar incidents perpetrated in Europe by those subjectively and/or objectively affiliated with ISIL.

If we’re very, very lucky this is a one off. If we’re not we’ll see a new form of socially learned political violence emerge here in the US.

Update at 4:oo PM EDT

MSNBC has just reported that one person has died as a result of the vehicular attack and a total of 19 others have been injured of the course of today’s events in Charlottesville.

*

 

 

Reader Interactions

185Comments

  1. 1.

    Another Scott

    Thanks for pointing out the bigger picture here. The GOP wants to break every societal norm that they think stands in their way of obtaining exclusive political and economic power in the USA.

    We have to fight them every single day.

    Grrr.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  4. 4.

    Major Major Major Major

    If we’re very, very lucky this is a one off. If we’re not we’ll see a new form of socially learned political violence emerge here in the US.

    My money is on “not a one-off, but not the new normal.” But what do I know, I basically gave up trying to predict these people several Trump years* ago.

    *1-2 months per trump year

  5. 5.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    A second clause in the half-page bill clarifies, “A person shall not be immune from civil liability if the actions leading to the injury were willful or wanton.”

    The new bill is similar to one offered in January by a North Dakota legislator who said his mother-in-law’s path was blocked by protesters opposed to an oil pipeline.

    “There’s a line between protesting and terrorism, and what we’re dealing with was terrorism out there,” North Dakota state Rep. Keith Kempenich, a Republican, told The Washington Post about his bill.

    I think this qualifies as wanton and willful. These bills don’t also protect from criminal charges do they?

  8. 8.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @satby: I’ve seen pics of the car trapped on Monticello Avenue after the police closed the road, so I think they did.

    And after the performance today, it’s the perfect time to share one of my favorite comments on thing squatting in the Oval Office:

    Chuck Tingle‏ @ChuckTingle Jul 25

    squealing void crabs in bloated sack of human skin @realDonaldTrump is LEAST COOL THING IN THE WORLD (results of 3917 cool buckaroo survey)

  9. 9.

    rikyrah

    WHERE ARE THE BLACKADEMICS?

    Their silence is overwhelming.
    If this had happened during 44’s term, they’d already have pressed SEND on their prepared critiques of what he’s not doing..

    DO.I.LIE?

  10. 10.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    So you can’t call David Duke a c#nt on Twitter without a timeout. Sad!

  11. 11.

    Adam L Silverman

    @satby: There is now an announced manhunt for him. Some of the onsite statements indicate that there were no license plates on the car, though given the damage to the front end there will be little trouble finding it provided it is on the road. For instance, back in 2013 someone in a truck in the area on I81 where Maryland, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania are in close proximity killed a member of the PA National Guard by targeting his vehicle with the truck. As far as I know that case is still open. The truck had never been found. There are enough barns and outbuildings in rural/semi-rural areas that it is possible to hide a vehicle for a prolonged time.

    One of the other issues they’re going to have is that a lot of the people that showed up at this thing are not from Virginia. There are photos of vans picking up alt-right protestors with license plates from Texas, Michigan, and other states far from Virginia.

  12. 12.

    SFBayAreaGal

    Could we please stop calling them the alt-right. They are white supremacists domestic terrorists, Nazis, Klu Klux Klan

  16. 16.

    NorthLeft12

    Yes, I am adding “Conservative Intellectual” to my collection of oxymorons. It will fit nicely alongside “Moderate Republican”.

  18. 18.

    RSR

    I see threats to use such violence against cyclists here in Philly pretty regularly. I don’t cycle often, but I know many who do (as regular transit), and they and their kids (either on board passengers or cycling along with) are verbally abused, honked at (which can be quite startling and a therefore a safety issue), tailgated and worse.

    Even beyond the insanity and criminality of purposefully using a vehicle as a weapon, the mentality of the car-first/car-only crowd is damaged. They’re the men’s rights activists of the vehicular world. (I’m sure the Venn diagram of those two groups is pretty close to an eclipse at totality.)

  19. 19.

    Another Scott

    @Adam L Silverman: The plates don’t necessarily mean anything, of course. They could be rentals (and even local rentals sometimes have out of state tags).

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  21. 21.

    efgoldman

    I am a first amendment absolutist. More speech is better.
    But going along with that, it is incumbent on the authorities to prosecute, regularly and aggressively, for incitement and similar crimes.
    Actions have to have consequences.

  24. 24.

    karen marie

    In April the North Carolina legislation passed a law making it legal for people to run over protesters. Those opposed said it would encourage people to think it’s a good thing to do. I’m not betting against a North Carolina jury acquitting the driver.

  26. 26.

    Ohio Mom

    Whoa. I have not been on the internet today until about twenty minutes ago. This is a lot to digest.

  27. 27.

    delk

    @Adam L Silverman: We are currently driving a rental car in Chicago with New Jersey plates so it is possible that those vans are rentals. Hopefully the mechanic strike will end soon and our car can be repaired.

  31. 31.

    NorthLeft12

    My best wishes and thanks to all the counter protestors in Charlottesville. It is critically important that the white supremacists understand that they will never get a free pass wherever and whenever they attempt to expose their bigotry and ignorance.

  32. 32.

    lamh36

    Ooh trump bullshit statement pissed David Duke off???

    So, after decades of White Americans being targeted for discriminated & anti-White hatred, we come together as a people, and you attack us? twitter.com/realDonaldTrum…

  35. 35.

    Jeffro

    It’s not a one-off. All we have to do to point out the hypocrisy is ask them to ‘flip it’: how would they feel if a ‘trapped’ Black Lives Matter driver tried to escape a ‘riot’ by running down several dozen white supremacists?

  38. 38.

    Ohio Mom

    @lamh36: I just saw the video of Trump giving his statement. It certainly wasn’t his own words — egregious? That word is not in his vocabulary.

    I think what took him so long to say anything was the fact that he had to practice that statement a lot before delivering it.

  39. 39.

    Fair Economist

    @Frank Wilhoit:

    With all respect to Brennan Gilmore, this is not terrorism; it is murder with malice aforethought.

    The two categories are perfectly compatible.

  40. 40.

    tobie

    Don’t these nitwit, GOP state legislators catch the irony that in indemnifying drivers who plow into crowds, they’re defending the tactics used by ISIS recently in England, France and Germany? Far be it from them to be concerned about murder in the US, but given how amped up they get about ‘moooslim’ terror, you’d think they’d have some awareness of what they’re doing. How can these people be in government? At any level?

  44. 44.

    lamh36

    For real though y’all…the still photo of the car as it is hitting pedestrians is chilling??

  45. 45.

    JPL

    The president won’t condemn white nationalists, and the president won’t condemn Putin. This doesn’t bode well for our future.

  46. 46.

    trollhattan

    Somewhere in Connecticut, David Brooks remains concerned about the poor, fired Googlebro.

  47. 47.

    khead

    Could we please stop calling them the alt-right. They are white supremacists domestic terrorists, Nazis, Klu Klux Klan

    Fox talking head (a few minutes ago): “These people are racists. It’s not the alt-right. It’s not Republicans. It’s not Democrats.” I’m surprised she added the last part.

  51. 51.

    Yarrow

    @khead: That’s a lie. They are Republicans. Racists are the Republican base. Anyone who refuses to see and admit that is part of the problem.

  52. 52.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    @tobie: Actually it is more for WHITE drivers who plow into crowds of.
    A, Blacks and BLM activists
    B. Immigration Rights activists
    C. LGBT Activists
    D. If you are not GOP.

  53. 53.

    Honus

    @rikyrah: there was already a republican apparatchik on CNN asking where mcauliffe, kaine and Warner were. To her credit, the announcer pointed out that they had all already weighed in condemning hate speech and racism.
    The local paper is already blaming all the trouble on one black city councilman who advocated the removal of the statues. Yeah, sure, 1000 assholes show up marching with torches, doing nazi salutes and chanting “blood and soil” and it’s all Wes Bellamy’s fault.

  54. 54.

    trollhattan

    Where’s the blogfather, local blues radio show is playing “Fat Man in the Bathtub” off “Waiting for Columbus” his favorite album IIRC. Days like this I need my music. The lawn can wait.

  56. 56.

    Honus

    That attack was right in front of my old office. I have a photo from my window of obama waving from the street in the exact spot the car crashed into the crowd.

  57. 57.

    Shell

    Fucking Trump. if he’d been around when they fired on Fort Sumpter, he would probably have blithered about “both sides do it”.

  58. 58.

    Trentrunner

    @rikyrah: I loathe him, but Cornel West was at the protest this morning. He was hustled away with the female pastor on that live Joy piece on MSNBC.

    So, props to West for showing up. (Still can’t stand him.)

  60. 60.

    Adam L Silverman

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1984/08/07/us-ties-klan-olympic-hate-mail-to-kgb/80918fe8-fcf0-46cf-bb58-726ee46d8ce9/?utm_term=.23e625e11bae

    The government has hard information that the Soviet intelligence agency, the KGB, sent forged racist letters in the name of the Ku Klux Klan threatening Olympic athletes from 20 Asian and African nations, Attorney General William French Smith and FBI Director William H. Webster said today.

    The Soviets acted in an effort to gain support from non-Communist bloc countries for their boycott of the Olympics, Smith said, but “fortunately, none of the nations that received these letters succumbed to the attempted intimidation.” He made the statement in a speech to a thousand members of the American Bar Association about the communists’ “threat to the international rule of law.”

    Lawyers and judges from about 30 foreign nations, including African and Asian nations, were in the audience as Smith spoke to the ABA’s convention. Webster, who is also attending the meeting, confirmed Smith’s comments afterwards in an interview.

    Reports of the letters surfaced in early July. They were reportedly mailed from U.S. locations, including Prince George’s County and northern Virginia, and threatened violence to athletes. At the time, the Soviet Embassy in Washington and KKK leaders denied involvement.

    Smith said today that the letters were “openly racist and disgusting,” adding that “a thorough analysis — including linguistic and forensic techniques” — had revealed the source of the letters as the KGB.

    Neither Smith nor Webster would say more about evidence of KGB involvement, saying they did not want to compromise sources or help the Soviets improve their forgery techniques.

    “We’re entirely satisfied” that the KGB is responsible for the letters, Webster said.

    Asked if the government was basing its conclusion on hard evidence, rather than inference, Webster said “that’s right.”

    Last month, the State Department released a copy of a letter that had been sent to the Olympic committees of various African and Asian countries — Malaysia, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka and South Korea — in the name of the Klan with a postmark of Prince George’s County. It was headlined, “Olympic Games for Humans, Not Apes.”

    The letters, Smith said in his speech, “were not produced or sent by the Ku Klux Klan. They were instead manufactured and mailed by another organization devoted to terror: the KGB.

    “Although I cannot detail all of what we know about these documents for fear of helping the authors to refine their efforts, a thorough analysis — including linguistic and forensic techniques — reveals that they are classic examples of a Soviet forgery or disinformation operation,” Smith said.

    “They were intended to aid the Soviets in justifying their boycott of the Olympics and to gain the support of non-Communist bloc countries. Through this plot, the Soviet Union, employing cynical falsehood, struck at both the Olympic ideal and the rule of law.

    “It is not, however, unique,” he said. “The plot is an example of what the intelligence community refers to as an ‘active measure.’ By an active measure, the Soviets mean an operation intended to influence or affect another country’s policies.”

    Smith said, “These forgeries are deserving of worldwide censure and should serve as a warning of Soviet efforts.”

    Smith also reported to the ABA what he said were efforts by Cuba and Bulgaria to use drug-trafficking to finance terrorism and by Nicaragua to use drug sales to finance “revolutionary efforts.”

    He said three recent federal indictments supported this conclusion. “Just last week, a federal grand jury in Miami indicted 11 persons on drug-trafficking and conspiracy charges involving a major cocaine shipment smuggled into this country via Nicaragua,” he said. “One of those defendants — Frederico Vaughan — has been identified in court documents as an aide to the Sandinista minister of the interior.”

    “Any coming together of terrorist or insurgent groups and drug-trafficking must be viewed as an extremely serious threat to law and society,” Smith said.

    Tuesday the ABA is to consider a resolution criticizing the United States for refusing the International Court of Justice’s jurisdiction over covert U.S. activities against Nicaragua.

    A second critical resolution, attacking denials of visas to politically objectionable foreign speakers, also will be before the association’s House of Delegates. That resolution is expected to be deferred for further study.

  61. 61.

    NotMax

    Wrong, wrong, wrong on more levels than the easy to list ones which follow:

    How does one determine who is a “protestor” rather than a bystander or reporter or photographer or simply someone crossing the street? Is there an app for that?

    If a “protestor” brings along (or just is in proximity to) a minor below the age of giving informed consent and (FSM forbid) that child is injured or killed, is the driver absolved?

    Case can be made that the protest (if, say, not on a limited access roadway from which pedestrians are excluded by law) falls under the umbrella of petitioning the government for redress of grievances and the proposed statute is therefore unconstitutional.

  63. 63.

    MomSense

    @Honus:

    Wow. How far we’ve fallen. We oncenhadnangrest president who called us to our better selves.

    Hero to zero.

  64. 64.

    Adam L Silverman

  67. 67.

    Another Scott

    @Adam L Silverman: Those Soviets. Such naughty little boys.

    Grrr…

    But connect the dots for me – that article is from 33+ years ago. Are you thinking that the (apparently deranged) guy who plowed into those people was somehow tied to the FSB?

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  68. 68.

    Mnemosyne

    Adam is 100 percent right here. Conservatives openly advocated running protesters over. They can’t whine now that they were only kidding, or they didn’t mean it, or they meant that only certain people should do it. They fucking said it, over and over again, and one of their boys listened and obeyed.

    Fuck all these fucking fucks.

  71. 71.

    Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]

    I know it’s early in incident (facts on the ground will change as people work out what exactly has happened). Still, I find it FASCINATING that the attack against the white-supremacist/neo-Nazi demonstrators mirrors the favorite attack of modern ISIS terrorists in western Europe. It might be two different trees, but I’d say they are growing from the same rotten root-stock.

  72. 72.

    efgoldman

    @Mnemosyne:

    They can’t whine now that they were only kidding, or they didn’t mean it, or they meant that only certain people should do it.

    Sure they can, and they will. Hypocrisy is never a bar to their whining.

  73. 73.

    Honus

    @Adam L Silverman: they’ll find him. That part of charlottesville is very tight and congested. It was utter stupidity (not surprising) to think you could do that there and get away. I’ve lived here for 45 years and had an office or a shop within 200 yards of that street for past 35.

  76. 76.

    HeleninEire

    @satby: Of course it’s a “him”

    Oh my I need to do my Helen rant that I haven’t done here in years.

    Yes, yes I do.

    From the beginning of time, all of that raping and robbing and pillaging has always been done by men.

    Wanna get rid of rape? Get rid of men. Wanna get rid of war? Get rid of men.
    Wanna get rid of Wall Street stealing from Main Street? Yeah, get rid of men.

    Seems to me that if all the stupid white men are mad about how things have turned out, they only have themselves to blame.

    Sounds kinda stupid when you phrase it like that, doesn’t it?

    Kinda of like blaming all Muslims for terrorism.

  78. 78.

    Mike in NC

    Photos showed so many heavily armed loons, it’s almost a miracle that none of them started shooting. Probably as many cops there as white supremacists. But it’s only 4:45 PM on Saturday.

  80. 80.

    debbie

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I have to say that there have been a few incidents like this in central Ohio recently. A New Zealander running across the country is hit and run by a pick up. He’s got numerous broken bones (including his pelvis) and likely will never run again. A female jogger was also a pickup truck hit and run. She was running in broad daylight with more than a few people around.

    I think this hit and run stuff may be a new N*zi MO.

  82. 82.

    Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]

    @satby: my bad. mis-typing I meant that the attack was against the counter-protestors.

    For missing a “not”

    My apologies.

  83. 83.

    MattF

    I’m pleased that the incident where Prof. Instapundit got caught with his pants down is being recalled. Some people may be surprised, recalling the days when he had a shred of respectibility. But that was then.

  84. 84.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Another Scott: No, not specifically. What we do know is that there are specific, direct ties and connections between the extreme right in the US, and some of the extreme left (Jill Stein), with a variety of Russian actors. Some of these are ideological connections: Richard Spencer’s wife (beard) being Russian and Dugin’s English language translator or Alex Jones hosting Dugin on his show this past week. Some of this goes beyond this such as Russian funding for separatist and/or nationalist movements. In the US this is Texas and California secessionist groups. The former of which is made up of the extreme portion of the Texas state GOP and seeks to push the Texas state GOP to accept their position in the state party platform. Similarly Putin’s support and funding for LePen, Farage, Wilders, etc in Europe. And who is the ideological link among that crowd and back to the political movements in the US? Bannon.

    Things like this. Not everything has to be formal. But there are a tremendous amount of connections between Russia, Russian Intel, Russian oligarchs, and/or Russian organized crime (all of which are related to each other any way).

  87. 87.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]: The attack was against counterprotestors. I’ve long said that radical Islam and revanchist Republicans are more alike than different.

  88. 88.

    Adam L Silverman

    If anyone cares, Brian Levin who is on MSNBC right now, is an old friend of mine. We’ve collaborated on stuff before I went to work for the military.

  89. 89.

    debbie

    Is the suspect the guy who believes he’s the reincarnation of Thomas Jefferson? I can’t keep up.

  90. 90.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Adam L Silverman: Well to be fair, Indian civil servants have a lot of practice dealing with half wit princelings and scions of political dynasties. One of the reasons of Modi led BJP dominance in recent years is the sheer ineptitude of Rahul Gandhi.

  91. 91.

    Jeffro

    Btw – who (on the right) went with “FALSE FLAG!!1!” already, either for those who were chanting “blood and soil” last night or the car-attacker today? I’m sure someone beat Alex Jones to the punch…

  94. 94.

    cain

    @Another Scott:

    These people are not conservatives. They are something else. Neo-liberals or something because them attacking everything every norm is the opposite of conservatism.

  95. 95.

    PPCLI

    @Mnemosyne: And speaking of “I was just kidding/didn’t mean it”, I think this is a good time to remember and remind everyone of Laura Ingraham’s “accidental” Nazi salute at the Republican National Convention.

  96. 96.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    the White House has released a statement defending the president’s “all sides” statement. I can’t copy the screen shot. “There was violence between protesters and counter protesters today”

  99. 99.

    Jeffro

    At this point, with Priebus, Spicer, and most of the ‘establishment’ GOP out of the WH, isn’t it pretty much all Nazi types like Bannon, Gorka, and Miller running the show?

    I have a feeling we’ll be hearing more about those kkklowns as the week goes on. Come on, WH reporters, let’s hear some better questions for once! SHS will fold like an origami swan. Trumpov himself will stroke out if you ask him to his face about all the white supremacists on his staff. DO IT.

  101. 101.

    Gozer

    I want to post something more cogent, but the only thing that comes to mind is: “These Motherfuckers…”

  102. 102.

    Ruckus

    Adam
    I said in the previous post this is not terrorism. This is warfare. Terrorism is a sneak attack, you don’t see it coming, often even if you are looking for it. This isn’t that. This is warfare. David Duke even announced the declaration of war. The far right, the nazis, the KKK are all supported by Donald Trump. They were courted in his campaign, he will not renounce them, ever because he is one of them. This is warfare. It’s not an army marching into Poland but otherwise how different is this?
    This is a declared war on citizens of a country by other citizens, it is supported by the president and his staff, we are at war. It is civil war, for the same reason as last time, bigotry. States will not secede or probably even try, but citizens have gathered together to openly fight a war over their “rights” to be open, violent bigots. The federal government won’t do anything this time. Because the tiny little shit gibbon at the top is one of the traitors.

  103. 103.

    Lurking Canadian

    @Jeffro: They were also chanting “Ein Volk! Ein Reich!” They really are letting their freak flag fly this weekend.

  104. 104.

    Sab

    @Adam L Silverman: I don’t think that Ohio car was the attacker. It looks to me like that dark gray car was the attacking car and the Ohio car was unfortunately just there.

  109. 109.

    Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]

    @NorthLeft12: I missed typing a “counter”/”not” in my post. I was attempting to point out the similarity of the far right in America, and fundamentalist groups in the middle east. Complete editing fail on my part. I’m sorry.

  111. 111.

    NotMax

    @Adam L. Silverman

    As mentioned yesterday, there do exist web sites which begin with “alt-right” or “altright” and end with “.ru” in their URL.

    No, did not visit or click on them when Google spat them out in response to certain search terms which are never appropriate to repeat in company here or anywhere. Likely to be many more such on the dark web.

  112. 112.

    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap

    Um, hey Deep State, any time you guys want to do something about the Nazi in the White House, feel free.

  113. 113.

    rikyrah

    David Mack‏Verified account @davidmackau

    Trump ignores reporters’ questions:
    -Do you want the support of these white nationalists groups?
    -Would you call this terrorism, sir?

  115. 115.

    Lyrebird

    @lamh36: Yes.
    That human beings, born of mommies and maybe even parents of human children, could propose & promote laws making that okay also chills me. Revolting.

    I was already thinking of making a “White Racism Still Kills People, Could We Please Do Something About That NOW?” sign even before this…

    ETA: Y’all can see why they don’t pick me to create slogans for new movements… I mean it tho!

  116. 116.

    Ruckus

    @cain:
    opposite of conservatism.
    Bull and Shit.
    This is who they are. They didn’t have to vote for drumpf. They didn’t have to gerrymander elections. This is who they are. I’m not saying every conservative in the country supports this, but they sure as fuck didn’t fight very hard to avoid it. This is who they are. This is who conservatives have been since the founding of the country.

  118. 118.

    Elizabelle

    I think days like today help motivate Robert Mueller and his team of expert investigators. Reminds them why they are working so hard.

    We are better than the white nationalist louts who showed up in Charlottesville this Saturday. We will win this, and apparently it’s a conversation that is worth having.

    Reminds me of the idiots that wanted to open carry in the Starbucks in Sandy Hook shortly after the massacre of the small children and their teachers and principal. That did not work out that well for them.

    Sad to learn of a death in Cville.

  121. 121.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Sab: The Ohio car is. It is a grey Dodge Charger. That’s why when I saw the plate I ran the tag to get a VIN and then ran the VIN to get make, model, and year.

  122. 122.

    cain

    @schrodingers_cat:

    @Adam L Silverman: Well to be fair, Indian civil servants have a lot of practice dealing with half wit princelings and scions of political dynasties. One of the reasons of Modi led BJP dominance in recent years is the sheer ineptitude of Rahul Gandhi Congress I.

    I hate Congress I with a heat of a thousand suns. While BJP isn’t way better, I always noticed that there is a lot more progression and civil sense when they are in charge.

  123. 123.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Mueller is doing what he’s supposed to be doing. These things take time. For now, despite some commenters’ misgivings, the White House fight will be by Kelly and McMaster to push out the remaining Flynn holdovers (Flynnstones), as well as Bannon and his crew. Even then Miller is likely safe as it’s been reported that he’s ingratiated himself with Jared and Ivanka.

  124. 124.

    Gelfling 545

    As I was speaking of attending protests in the last post, I should mention that there is a candle light vigil here tonight in response to the horror in VA. Anybody else have anything local happening?

  127. 127.

    cain

    @schrodingers_cat:

    @cain: We can play semantic games over who is a real conservative and a Republican but they are conservative and Republican because that’s how they define themselves.

    They have defined themselves out of the text book definition of conservatism. What they are now are simply nationalist fascists with a religious death wish. A mix of religion, nationalism, xenophobia, and hate.

  130. 130.

    Ruckus

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I don’t disagree on that. That’s not what this is. This is open hostilities. One of the leaders declared war on the rest of us. That’s civil war.
    Are you trying to tamp down the rhetoric? That I can understand.
    I’m not saying this is a good thing that they have declared war. I’m just saying let’s not mistake this for something it isn’t, try to minimize it. We’ve been doing that for decades now and look, it isn’t working. People have said we need a national discussion about race and hate, but I’m thinking it’s too late, the other side has taken bold steps. Will they continue? Will they find that they are far outnumbered and not the in charge studs they think they are? Will they care and stop? You might notice my disbelief.

  132. 132.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Gelfling 545: Here you go:

  134. 134.

    cain

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Yeah, that was pretty ridiculous. I won’t excuse that. The Modi govt is another kind of crazy, virulent pro Hindu (whatever the hell that means, since HInduism doesn’t take a stand on anything) So either you’re stuck with a kleptomaniac congress I party, or a racist pro-hindu party.. Hard to win.

  136. 136.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Elizabelle: I think days like today help motivate Robert Mueller and his team of expert investigators. Reminds them why they are working so hard.
    Greg Sargent says Meuller seems to be focusing on the events leading up to Comey’s firing, which would suggest he’s focusing on an obstruction charge. I don’t know why it would take work, but IANAL.

    Also, too

    Matthew Miller‏Verified account @ matthewamiller 1h1 hour ago
    Meanwhile, Mueller is about to start questioning WH staff. This is where things get ugly inside the WH.

    WASHINGTON — In a sign that the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election will remain a continuing distraction for the White House, the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, is in talks with the West Wing about interviewing current and former senior administration officials, including the recently ousted White House chief of staff, Reince Priebus, according to three people briefed on the discussions.

  138. 138.

    A Ghost to Not

    @Adam L Silverman:

    That’s why when I saw the plate I ran the tag to get a VIN and then ran the VIN to get make, model, and year.

    You’re a little scary, you know. Brilliant, but scary.

  141. 141.

    ? Martin

    1 dead 19 injured, even with eyewitness video isn’t enough to change anything. LBJ needed dogs and firehoses and straight-up beatdowns of peaceful protestors before he finally could take no more.

    This incident, and Trumps inability to condemn it by name, is the desired outcome from the 2016 election. It had nothing to do with jobs or healthcare, and everything about preserving white christian patriarchal America at the very moment it is at risk of falling into permanent national minority status (regional will take ages longer).

    Every single thing about the last 2 years has been a drive toward this goal. Tax reform can be sacrificed. Healthcare can be sacrificed. Cabinet confirmations can be sacrificed. The battle is for the lifetime appointments in the judiciary, and their ability to ensure that the GOPs plan to gerrymander and vote suppress can be extended to give them more time in power. The driver of that vehicle will hopefully be prosecuted, but NC and about 7 other states have legislation in the works to make that legal. Look at the militia groups that were there open-carrying with more firepower than the Natl Guard would have shown up with. Even the police that wanted to intervene must have been giving that idea some second thoughts.

    This (like Berkeley) was a test, and I’d say it went pretty well for the nazis. There will be more, and bigger, and better armed ones to come. I’ll bet anything that you’ll keep seeing them on college campuses as well. Universities are going to have to get their shit together and fast.

  143. 143.

    Baud

    Posted in the next thread.

    Conversation
    John Dingell
    John Dingell @JohnDingell
    I signed up to fight Nazis 73 years ago and I’ll do it again if I have to.

    Hatred, bigotry, & fascism should have no place in this country.

  145. 145.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Ruckus: There’s a lot to unpack here, and some of it/most of it deserves its own post. That said, and briefly as I need to go feed the dogs (they’re starting to stare at me and drool as they realize that “dad is made of steak…”:
    Two immediate different things. The first is proper categorization. These white nationalist/white supremacist folks (of a variety of flavors) who feel emboldened are still a fringe movement and small percentage of the US citizenry. Even with fellow travelers in the White House. And people have started to notice that just as the President can’t ever seem to criticize Putin or Russia he also can’t seem to ever criticize white nationalism/supremacy. That said we’re not in a civil war yet just because the head of one of many white supremacist groups has declared one. Today started as a raucous protest and counter protest that followed a protest last night that got violent, and then turned into a violent protest capped off with an act of terrorism via vehicular homicide.

    Do I think the President is going to do or say the right things? No. Do I expect his hardcore white nationalist advisors (Bannon, Gorka, Miller, Sessions) to keep pushing him in directions they want? Yes. Do I expect actual GOP elected officials to do much other than make statements? Also, no. Though a number of former elected and appointed officials have made some strong statements against this today in a variety of media platforms. But we need to recognize what it is we’re seeing and it is not a civil war. Not by any accepted definition. It isn’t even an insurgency at the lowest end of the low intensity warfare scale. And it certainly isn’t a revolution. Even most of the armed militia guys are more scared of who they’re protesting about or supposedly protecting the protesters from (hence the full battle rattle and AR pattern rifle cosplay today and many other days) than the converse.

    We have a problem. It is going to get worse for a while, as I’ve written repeatedly, but despite all the imperfect and limited progress and backsliding we always do as a state and society, we’re a lot farther along in 2017 than we were in the 1960s or the 1930s or the 1910s, etc, etc. We’re not in a civil war. We are in a period of socio-political, socio-cultural, socio-economic, and socio-religious upheaval. This happens after every period of progress in the US. Recognizing these realities are how we preserve as much progress as possible, set the conditions to survive the upheaval, and thrive in its aftermath.

  146. 146.

    Another Scott

    @cain: Yup. An old friend once posed the question:

    “What, exactly, are you wanting to conserve?”

    :-/

    It’s tribal with them. There’s little if any thought behind it except Cleek’s Law.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  148. 148.

    ? Martin

    @cain:

    What they are now are simply nationalist fascists with a religious death wish. A mix of religion, nationalism, xenophobia, and hate.

    They’ve been that for a long time. They always had the numbers to stay in power through more acceptable means. Now they don’t.

    Now, most conservatives will proclaim that they don’t believe that, and consciously they may not, but they excuse it because it gives them the outcomes they want – political power, economic power, religious power, ethnic power, etc. To be fair, the Democrats are playing mostly the same game, but we get our power from reaching out and empowering out-of-power groups. The goal is the same, but the means of getting there are almost completely opposite.

  149. 149.

    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap

    @Adam L Silverman: Meh, the success of Muller’s work is all predicated on the rule of law, which we don’t have, at least for Republicans. I’m talking about the three letter agencies, you know, the guys that are right now sitting on the SIGINT collected during the campaign. They could have released the tapes to the WaPo anytime they wanted to. Trump is an existential threat to the U.S., their job is to defend the country from threats foreign and domestic, right now I’d say they’re failing.

  150. 150.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: That and he’s looking for financial stuff to prosecute so he doesn’t have to burn the sources and methods from the counterintelligence investigation. If you start seeing charges for tax evasion or money laundering or other financial crimes what is really going on is that they know, from the intel generated from the CI investigation, the extent of the working with a hostile foreign power/powers and they’re using the financial crimes to make the cases.

  151. 151.

    Adam L Silverman

    @A Ghost to Not: I don’t have a name. I ran the open source stuff. I did forward the tag to a good friend who is a supervisory officer in one of the departments down here so he could BOLO.

  154. 154.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Who do you think is working for Mueller? He now controls the Counterintelligence Investigation. This is an Interagency Task Force with Intel personnel and dedicated prosecutors from FBI, DOJ, CIA, NSA, etc.

  156. 156.

    Adam L Silverman

    This is heartening. People are starting to notice the President’s inability to call what is going what it is:

    And:

    And:

  158. 158.

    Elizabelle

    @Adam L Silverman: Credit where due. Impressed that Cory “Weathervane” Gardner went out on a limb, and expressed himself so clearly.

    The pleasures and perils of representing a purple state.

  159. 159.

    Baud

    @Elizabelle: Hey EB. I apologize if I offended you earlier. Even though you were egregiously wrong about being missed, I shouldn’t compare anyone to Donald Trump.

    ETA

  161. 161.

    Another Scott

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks.

    She makes a decent case.

    I’ve got no illusions about Putin, and the “alt-right” here and abroad. There’s no doubt that Putin is supporting many of these horrible “leaders”.

    We also know, though, that there are lots of deranged people in the USA who aren’t getting the treatment they need and who get amped-up on conspiracy theories of various types. Of course anyone who would try to murder dozens of people is brain damaged no matter their political beliefs. And I agree with you that terrorism is a tactic that can be employed in all kinds of circumstances (in a war or not). Deranged people can be terrorists as much as brain-washed true believers.

    Whatever the circumstances today, whether this guy was simply deranged (“reincarnated Thomas Jefferson”) or something more, I hope that Mark Herring (Virginia’s AG) and the local and state police come down hard on whoever was behind the attack on the peaceful protesters, and does what they can to go after the Nazis and others who are fomenting this violence (via RICO and similar state laws, if any, if possible). It’s had to see Session’s DoJ doing much of anything effective. :-(

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  163. 163.

    Elizabelle

    @Baud: How funny. I was driving and missed the whole thing.

    I have worried sometimes that I have offended you, without meaning to. So, I guess we are even, hmmm?

    Now, heading to the morning thread (??) to catch the Baud! diss….

  165. 165.

    Shalimar

    @Elizabelle: Cory Gardner is chairing the RSCC. He more than the rest of them has to be planning election strategy and thinking of optics. Looks like 2018 is not going to be a double down on racism for the base year.

  168. 168.

    Ruckus

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I’m not as old as some here but I am old enough to have lived through a lot of protests, in the 60s on. I don’t see this as the same. Those old protests were about freedom, about not being in a bullshit war. The people who did this are against all of that. Sure we’ve had violent protests, through out history. But I see this as different. None of the protests in the past had encouragement from the upper levels of government. This one does. How many of the prior protests had armed participants with the local government allowing that? As you stated better armed than the national guard that would be called in to handle the situation. Surly not better tactically but then, the NG. This isn’t just a protest, and it wasn’t a clandestine, spontaneous protest. It was known to the people who award permits to gather and such. Those in charge knew who this was and what was going on. And they allowed it. Our politics allowed this. Our politics is not your dad’s politics, nor mine. 40 yrs ago these would be total fringe groups. Since Nov 8 the no longer are fringe groups, their masthead leader is president. They elected him for this. Sure they may not have expected him to win, but he did. And they are taking advantage of it. Just like so many said they would. I can’t in good conscience call or think this is a splinter group or a nothing. The president ran on this platform, elect me and free the world of anyone, anything non white. These guys may be nuts but that complete freedom to be white above all else was accepted and voted on by over 60 million people in this country. This particular group may be insurgents but that 60+ million makes this far more than terrorism.

  170. 170.

    patrick II

    If I was Gov. McCauliffe I would send someone to knock down that statue of lee with however many national guard he thought was necessary to make sure the task was carried out. Make a damn point.

  171. 171.

    cain

    @schrodingers_cat:

    @cain: Pro Hindu as defined by the RSS whose founder was inspired by the fascist and nationalist movements in early 20th century Europe.

    I hate those people.. I have some people in my family who are part of that. I have no fucks to give for those guys. They will change hinduism and hindu thought for the worse. One thing I love about Hinduism is that it never make the claim that their method is the only method unlike other religion, but just one of many. These guys will change that credo.

  173. 173.

    Another Scott

    Reuters says McAuliffe says the death toll in Charlottesville is now 3.

    :-(

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  175. 175.

    Uncle Ebeneezer

    @Jeffro: How about if a Black person in Charlottesville, rightfully fearing for their safety, ran over some of these white (power) “protestors?” I wonder where Instaputrid would stand on THAT driver? /sarcasm

  176. 176.

    Hellbastard

    Two dead in Portland standing up to these knuckle draggers. One dead today. They are killing us while we chant and march peacefully.

  179. 179.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Elizabelle:
    Crashed 7 miles from Charlottesville.

    We also lost an F18/A Super Hornet. Nimitz waved off a deck landing and redirected it to Bahrain. Pilot was able to punch out before the Hornet crashed into a runway at Bahrain International Airport.

  180. 180.

    The Pale Scot

    @Honus:

    It was utter stupidity (not surprising) to think you could do that there and get away.

    Thinking would have precluded his certain “temporary insanity defense” caused by the great burden of having to keep his bigotry hidden beneath a teeth grinding veneer of a polite or unresponsive demeanor for last ten years or so.

  181. 181.

    The Pale Scot

    These people are not conservatives.

    The term of use I believe is “Reactionary”

  182. 182.

    Elizabelle

    @The Pale Scot: Reactionary is precisely the word.

    It’s appalling the John Bircher set is having their moment, but lucky us.

    @Adam L Silverman: Yeah, I can’t tell if there is any actual cause and effect yet.

    But if Governor McAuliffe misspoke, it will be right up there with “Emails!” in rightwing world. Again, fuck ’em.

  183. 183.

    Obdurodon

    Is it worth pointing out that the Nazi slogans these guys were chanting would be illegal in Germany? The Nazi party and its agenda live on, not in Germany but in the US. They’re planning their own Kristallnacht right now.

  185. 185.

    J R in WV

    @Adam L Silverman:

    “We also lost an F18/A Super Hornet. ”

    Glad to hear he made it far enough to punch out over Bahrain. Hope it didn’t do too much damage to the airport… I was never on a birdfarm, but you still hate to hear about a bad day on any ship. For a pilot it doesn’t get much worse than that and you still survive.

    Hated it when the Osprey hit the ass of that ship. At least most of them made it out. Seeing those photos on the news of the best and brightest really sucks. Especially since Cheney and Rumsfeld fomented a war over nothing, and then made a cluster FQ out of pretty much the whole mideast… what a waste.

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