Tonight’s Trump Dump is from the Washington Post:
While Donald Trump was running for president in late 2015 and early 2016, his company was pursuing a plan to develop a massive Trump Tower in Moscow, according to several people familiar with the proposal and new records reviewed by Trump Organization lawyers.
This is pretty significant. The cast of characters is familiar – Felix Sater and Trump lawyer Michael Cohen. As always, it’s not clear how involved Trump himself was. This was a time period when Trump was being particularly effusive to Vladimir Putin.
Andrew Weiss has some early observations in a thread starting with this tweet.
1/ Stunning: Trump failed to disclose a large pending deal in Moscow while he ran for White House via @CarolLeonnig https://t.co/ARkRb5dIAW
— Andrew S. Weiss (@andrewsweiss) August 28, 2017
Josh Marshall has been following Felix Sater’s role particularly closely and has a short piece up.
I may be able to provide more analysis tomorrow morning. I’m a morning person and, in any case, had a great day today including birds and conversations with interesting people. I’ll stick around for a little while on this thread and come back tomorrow morning.
randy khan
I mentioned this at LGM, too, but New York Magazine had a long take-out on Sater earlier this month:
Sater-mania
Sater, despite being a cooperating witness with the FBI, doesn’t seem to give much thought to following the law. Of course, he may see it as all transactional – if he knows enough he can get off, after all.
Cheryl Rofer
Cheryl Rofer
In a slightly different key, former Vice President Joe Biden says we are in a struggle for the soul of the nation. We keep being hit with extraordinary things, but for a former vice president to criticize a sitting president is highly unusual. The ante is being upped.
Another Scott
This story is about the least surprising thing in the history of US politics. :-)
Seriously, has Trump ever (in the last 10-15 years anyway) heaped praise on anyone except as a bargaining tool to get what he wants? Of course he wanted something from Putin and was willing to give away anything – including the US Government – to get it.
Still, if it gets more attention among the people who don’t follow politics as closely as we do, then hooray!
I hope Mueller finds much more though…
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
ruemara
I just despise these craven, moronic assholes.
clay
@Cheryl Rofer: Isn’t Michael Cohen Trump’s attorney? So, we’re supposed to ask Trump’s attorney’s attorney?
Hmmm… not enough layers of lawyer yet. Call me when we get to Trump’s attorney’s attorney’s attorney’s attorney.
Wag
@Another Scott:
As do we all. And I have little doubt that he will, and already has.
Wag
@clay: It’ll be like peeling an onion. One stinking layer of lawyers after another.
PsiFighter37
@Wag: Given the team of lawyers / prosecutors that Mueller has assembled, I think that Mueller is going to make Watergate look like child’s play once all is said and done.
Repatriated
@clay:
MAGA: My Attorney’s Got Attorneys.
Mnemosyne
I suspect that the deal “fell through” because Putin had his eye on the bigger prize. If Hillary had managed to pull out the election after all, they’d be breaking ground on Trump Tower Moscow as we speak.
Cheryl Rofer
@clay: Precisely
Wag
@Repatriated: You win the internet tonight!
@PsiFighter37:
Without a doubt.
rikyrah
@ruemara:
I feel you
MomSense
I just have this feeling that the rot goes deep in the Republican Party.
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
People have been warning us since 2010 that Citizens United meant that foreign governments could donate unlimited funds to elections. We’re simply seeing the culmination of that process.
efgoldman
Peach Pustule’s old man was a racist sleaze and a crook; like papa like son.
Just beginning to explore the rotten underside of the iceberg.
Cheryl Rofer
Headed to bed now. Looks like y’all are slowing down too. I’ll be back in the morning to check this thread.
sm*t cl*de
@Cheryl Rofer:
Cheney set the New Norrmal.
It is not yet normal for a sitting president to spend 2/3 of his time criticising the previous president, though.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Except the old man was good at it. And never, AFAIK, wanted what trump wants most of all: Attention.
Repatriated
@MomSense:
Wouldn’t be the first time. Remember the Rep. Mark Foley House Pages scandal?
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: It is also a month old. TPM covered this in July.
MomSense
@Mnemosyne:
Exactly. And I betcha the hack of the RNC and other GOP officials and members of Congress was a treasure trove of kompromat. That the Russians didnt go public with it means they have a lot of leverage.
I hope it all comes out.
efgoldman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
So good at it, he went to the sneezer
PPCLI
@Repatriated: MAAGA: My Attorney’s Attorneys Got Attorneys
We’re going to need a bigger hat
Another Scott
@PPCLI: rofl.
Cheers,
Scott.
patrick II
@Mnemosyne:
Alito sadly shakes his head no, not possible.
Millard Filmore
@Mnemosyne:
The story since the Russian interference broke is that “at least they didn’t change any votes out of the polling stations”. Trump ran a really crap campaign. He insulted many groups, wasted many campaign days in all the wrong places, blew off any big data work, and his only policy was MAGA … essentially just loafed through the whole process. Yet he was supremely confident he would win, and it appears Putin was too.
His two core groups were racists and evangelicals. That is not enough. Those were the types to always go Republican anyway. Where did they get the rest of the votes to win? I am starting to grow tinfoil on my head, thinking that Yes, the Russians DID mess with our vote count.
I do not think Russian money flowing into the Republican Party would cause McConnell to blanch for half an hour in that Intelligence meeting way back when. It must be something else. I do not follow all the news but McConnell has not made any noise about the investigation that would irritate the IC, has he? Hasn’t all his activity been on domestic issues like the ACA and tax give aways to the rich?
(made some cosmetic edits)
Repatriated
@PPCLI: All hat, no caselaw.
(My legalese-fu is weak — there has to be a better joke to be made there.)
GregB
I am still waiting for Yakov Smirnov’s name to get wound into this ball of yarn.
He’s the only Russian emigre left out of this clusterfuck so far.
Repatriated
@GregB: In post-Soviet Russia, …
Another Scott
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks. Trump and his minions are so transparent – “I want a big deal with Putin. Find me some good Russians to make it happen and pay them whatever they want!! Nobody will suspect a thing!!1”
They’re like Kang and Kodos come to life….
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
Gian
@Millard Filmore:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/house-majority-leader-to-colleagues-in-2016-i-think-putin-pays-trump/2017/05/17/515f6f8a-3aff-11e7-8854-21f359183e8c_story.html?utm_term=.0723a03ecac1
Smitty
@Cheryl Rofer: This is not very surprising or complicated. If anyone is taken aback by the craven Trump shame on you. Trump knows that he is in this rumble (Sharks v Jets) until the finish. He is damaged and knows it but, street fighter that he is, continues to slash and kick as long as he can. No honor here, just survival. Today Trump has suggested that police departments need additional equipment denied them by the Obama administration…grenade launchers. flack vests, etc. Looks to me that he is recruiting troops for battle Trump. I am not surprised.. Are you?
Repatriated
@GregB: Why am I suddenly reminded of Andy Kaufman?
Millard Filmore
@Gian:
Yes, that quote has been here for a few months. (1) That is rather isolated from McConnell and the Republican Party as a whole. The damage would be limited. (2) Paying Trump should not result in a confident victory.
Another Scott
@Millard Filmore: Remember how Ryan shut it down in that conversation – (roughly) “No leaks. We’re family.” They all know, they all think it’s a big joke as long as they’re on top, and they all don’t care.
Grr….
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: Based on the NeverTrumper GOP insider RUMINT there is a bigger story that WaPo is sitting on, for the time being. The implication is that it is at the request of Mueller. As with all of this we will have to wait and see if/when it comes out.
And it’s not that they’re transparent, it’s that they’ve been playing all sides in an attempt to keep cash flowing and themselves solvent for decades. This includes the FBI’s NY Field Office. Sater was an informant for them. And they covered for him. Wayne Barrett reported a long time ago that Giuliani covered for Trump in the late 80s/early 90s on money laundering allegations in exchange for Trump staking him a million dollars for his mayoral run and acting as his chief fundraising bundler as well. And there have been persistent rumors and allegations that the President was an informant for the NY Field Office as well.
Finally, everyone in that family has an uncanny knack of finding criminals to do business with. It’s like a genetic predisposition or something.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/27/ivanka-trump-business-partner-215544
Felonius Monk
@efgoldman:
Investigated by Congress, sued by the DOJ for discrimination, but AFAIK never incarcerated. Are you getting him mixed up with Kushner’s old man?
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It may have been because of what we have as media now versus what we had back then but I don’t recall him wanting that much attention at all. I don’t think he wanted to be that well known, just wealthy and didn’t care how he got there. drumpf requires admiration far more than money. He likes money.
Millard Filmore
@Smitty:
If this little civil war turns hot, I expect the EU and every important trading partner outside of Russia’s influence to impose a trade and banking embargo on us. China will be first out the gate to exploit (peacefully if we are all lucky) this golden opportunity. Our economy will crash and in the chaos those rich enough, especially the RWNJ billionairs will load themselves down with as much wealth as they can carry as they bug out to an evil socialist European country.
Millard Filmore
@Another Scott: I agree they all know about Russian money in our political process. My tinfoil hat says very few know, unless the IC has informed them, that they also dinked our vote counts. I cannot think of any other scandal that would cause McConnell to blanch long enough for it to be seen after the meeting is over and he is out the door.
efgoldman
@Felonius Monk:
Seen one racist asshole slumlord, you’ve seen ’em all.
Mnemosyne
@Ruckus:
OT, but I bought a hat at the new REI in Burbank. I needed one with a strap on it so I won’t lose it out on the water. Hopefully it will cool off a bit by the time the tall ships festival rolls around.
Millard Filmore
My #41 is in moderation ??? Maybe the word s0cilist ???
Oops, now its between #40 and #41
GregB
In post Soviet-Russia tapes pee-pee on you.
Adam L Silverman
@Millard Filmore: It’s free.
Felonius Monk
@efgoldman:
True ‘dat and then some. ;)
How you feeling? Is the dialysis routine working out?
Another Scott
@Millard Filmore: Yup. In a recent update of FYWP “socialism” and related words that contain “cialis” became spam words again (after Adam removed them from the list earlier (IIRC)).
Gotta be careful…
(Note that I used empty bold and italic tags above to get past the spam filters here.)
Cheers,
Scott.
Felonius Monk
@Mnemosyne:
Lose what? The hat or your lunch?
May we call you Midshipperson Mnem?
Another Scott
@Millard Filmore: Messing with the vote totals is very difficult because it is so decentralized. I still think that is unlikely, myself.
But it is worrying…
Cheers,
Scott.
efgoldman
@Felonius Monk:
Not improving as much as the medicos at the clinic would like, but slowly but surely….
Starting PT tomorrow, get some strength back in my legs before a four year old urchin shows up at the end of September. Also going out to a nice anniversary dinner (p.a. and G&T probably know where).
Smitty
@Adam L Silverman: It’s the Trump family being known worldwide as marks. They always fall for 3 card monte.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@Adam L Silverman: it’s not a genetic predisposition so much as it is the Trump’s are fabulously wealthy idiots who leave chum in the water for sharks.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: I’ll go back in tomorrow and do another scrub on the list.
Another Scott
@Adam L Silverman: Thank you, kind sir.
Those dungeon words are especially hideous because (apparently) once they’ve been triggered, no amount of editing will fix the problem.
‘night all. Rest well. Be strong for the battles starting again on Monday.
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: It isn’t the totals. If you hack the registration systems, especially in state’s that are looking to restrict the ability to vote, then you can manipulate the registrations forcing more of certain types of voters to use provisional ballots that are more likely to be invalidated. You also have the ability to use the info from the voter registration to engineer social media targeting of potential voters to manipulate them into not voting/staying home, depressing turnout, etc.
Felonius Monk
@efgoldman:
Physical therapy sounds like a good idea. I think it helps both mentally and physically. I hope you and Mrs efg enjoy the anniversary dinner.
Last I saw something from G&T he was in the airport (Munich, I think) drinking beer. Has he surfaced stateside yet?
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
I hope it cools a bit, I don’t do well in high heat anymore. So of course I live in southern CA. But it is at the ocean so I’d bet it will be a lot cooler than in the valleys. And I already have a hat that keeps the sun off of my shinny dome and it has a strap!. I also bought some suntan lotion. We all need sunlight, just not too much.
Mnemosyne
@Felonius Monk:
Oh, I’m resigned to losing my lunch. I hope I won’t, and I bought some Seabands and non-drowsy motion sickness stuff that NotMax recommended to try and prevent it, but I figure I should just go in on the assumption that I’ll get sick and deal with it. I’d rather prepare for the worst than be surprised by a bad reaction.
I will mostly likely sit in my seat with my hands folded (if I’m not hanging off the side, that is). I’m kind of a klutz and don’t want to accidentally damage the official tall ship of the state of California. Or myself, for that matter.
GregB
You also don’t need to hack millions of votes in 50 states. Under 100,00 in three states seems to have made the difference.
Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are where active rat fucking occurred.
I am convinced.
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
They didn’t need to mess with all of the totals, just a few states were necessary. If they picked right, or paid right that could have been more than enough.
Mnemosyne
@Ruckus:
I was telling my BFF last night that we’re going and it turns out that her younger girl did a program at the Ocean Institute where middle-schoolers spend the night on a docked ship. The kid pulled the midnight-to-2 am watch and, sure enough, they came and rousted her out of bed for it. In the pouring rain. ? But she got through it just fine, though I don’t think she aspires to become a sailor.
Millard Filmore
@Adam L Silverman:
I am paranoid and always open to a good conspiracy theory. I have confidence that, along with all the other rat-fucking, your description of events happened. It would be damaging for 1 or 2 election cycles. I don’t see it giving McConnell a 30 minute blanch. The tinfoil that is replacing my receding hairline says there must be something else very much worse.
(add) And that blanch means that it, whatever IT was, was a surprise when McConnell learned of it. It would not be a party wide operation.
Felonius Monk
@Mnemosyne: Bon voyage. When do you set sail?
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
Bring saltines. An empty stomach is the worst, I’ve been told. Also saltines were what we had in the navy for it and either it worked or I’m fairly immune to seasickness. Possibly both as I’ve owned a 30 ft sailboat and raced on other sailboats in the open ocean.
Repatriated
@Mnemosyne: One thing that helps with seasickness is to watch the horizon, not the deck and bulkheads.
If your brain knows it’s just the ship pitching and rolling, rather than the whole world doing so, it’s easier to avoid nausea.
Thru the Looking Glass...
There… it seems like that’s what you were reaching for, so I just wanted to help you get there…
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
One thing about current navy ships (and ones going back several decades) is that there isn’t much hanging about outside when it’s raining or under way in seas that are very heavy at all. Well except for plane duty behind aircraft carriers or underway refueling. But there are limits to that as well. Not if it’s just fucking cold though. Ask me later how I know that. Sailboats didn’t/don’t have that luxury.
Ruckus
@Repatriated:
Good tip, I’d forgotten that. Of course most of the time under way I was somewhere inside and couldn’t see the horizon. Or I was on the bridge to see what was what and the horizon was not really visible as any sort of a level line, it was moving all over the place more than we were.
But we won’t have that on this trip as we stay relatively close in shore and it’s very rare that there is much of a sea running at this time of year in the area we will be at.
Ruckus
@Felonius Monk:
12 days. Dana Point harbor.
Frankensteinbeck
@Smitty:
Trump is not a street fighter. He is an utter, abject coward not willing to look the people he fires in the face. Just imagine what a pathetic lack of willpower that takes. He is also not arming the police for combat. He is just reversing an Obama rule, with an extra nudge nudge wink wink to racist police officers that the DoJ will not investigate any police brutality against minorities.
Repatriated
@Repatriated: Or, alternatively, stand up and close your eyes.
It’s the conflict between what your sense of balance is telling you is up/down and what your eyes are telling you.
Your body interprets that disorientation as a symptom of poisoning, and reacts accordingly (get rid of whatever you just ate, promptly).
Seth Owen
I’m not much into either tin foil hats or CTs myself, but the more this nightmare continues the more I start having nagging doubts. The Trump victory was just so freaking weird. I mean, I know about all the flaws of the EC and all, but we’ve never had such a disproportionate outcome. Clinton beat him by what, 2 percent?
A few months ago the Palmer Report guy did a piece pointing out all the weirdness. He admitted he had no proof, just a lot of weird coincidences with the polling and how Trump just barely won by just barely enough in just the right places to pull it off. Somebody said once ‘I believe in coincidences, I just don’t trust them.’
Someone noted that this is bigger then Watergate. I think this is one of the biggest scandals in US history, if not the biggest. It’s one of the biggest crisis we have ever faced. This is Fort Sumter, Pearl Harbor, 9/11 big.
Adam is best placed to comment on this, but he’s pretty careful about speculation. I’m just some dude, so I’ll say it. The Intelligence Community may have deeply disturbing evidence. It may be evidence that any reasonable person would find damning. But with Trumpists we are not dealing with reasonable people. And the nature of IC products are that they are very unlikely to be beyond-a-reasonable-doubt level of proof, which would be what is needed in our polarized situation. We got folks who hate liberals so much that they are willing to make excuses for fucking Nazis. They aren’t going to be swayed by evidence from the IC, who they don’t trust.
It may be possible to bring Trump down through financial crimes. Much easier to prove and it doesn’t implicate IC sources and methods. But the REAL story may be that the Russians pulled off a huge coup. I think they needed a lot of help and fortuitous circumstances but I am no longer confident they didn’t take advantage of an opportunity to give things a nudge.
I keep hearing that our voting system is too decentralized and chaotic for widespread manipulation. But that wouldn’t be required here. The whole difference was what, 70,000 votes or so? All the power that be claim there is no evidence actual vote totals were changed. Has anybody really looked? Is it even possible to look?
I think it was Stalin who said it doesn’t matter who votes, it matters who counts the votes. The Russians know a thing or two on the subject, it appears.
I’m not ready to go completely CT on this. We don’t have direct evidence — just a bunch of unusual coincidences. Short of some Russian spy defecting or NSA intercepts I am not sure that any definitive proof is even possible.
But I’m willing to entertain the notion.
Repatriated
@Ruckus: Getting one’s “sea legs” is about developing the knack of trusting your sense of balance over visual orientation cues, I think. That and knowing where the handholds are…
Millard Filmore
@Seth Owen:
And yet, McConnell’s blanch was deep enough to last through the meeting and out into the public corridors. That is the part that troubles me the most. Financial mischief is survivable. Something the IC has that has not come out yet is fatal.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Mnemosyne:
Have breakfast, but nothing greasy. If someone near you begins to hurl, look away — it’s contagious.
Thru the Looking Glass...
@Seth Owen:
Financial crimes? It certainly seems that way to me… and if the State of NY nails him, or one of his inner circle, it’s my understanding that he can’t pardon them for STATE crimes… one can only dream…
Ruckus
@Repatriated:
LOL.
I see that you’ve been on the water a bit.
Repatriated
@Ruckus: Not as much as you’d think, but enough to figure it out. :)
Years of motorcycle riding helped, too.
Trabb's Boy
@Repatriated:
All hat and no briefs, of course!
Repatriated
@Trabb’s Boy: Good call!
Mnemosyne
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
I’m remembering the one (so far) time I went whale watching and ended up laying with my head on a table in the cabin along with the other miserable people, which is why I’m so nervous. But I think that happened partly because I lost my sunglasses about an hour into the cruise and I get light-triggered migraines, so it was a one-two whammy of rough seas and a migraine. That’s why I also bought a sunglass leash today, and I may wear my backup sunglasses on the actual ship, just in case.
And yet I had a great time on the whale watching cruise up until I started vomiting, so it wasn’t a total loss. Except of breakfast. ?
The Lodger
@Seth Owen: Wisconsin had 200,000 voters thrown off the rolls. Michigan had markedly fewer voting machines in a lot of Democratic precincts. Pennsylvania is legendary for conducting dubious elections, D counties shade their results toward Ds, R counties do it for Rs. It usually balances out, more or less, but not this time.
[email protected] is going into a lot more detail than he usually does about how things went off the rails in this election, and he’s always been careful bout what he says. Pay attention to what he’s saying now.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
And yet another commenter here (can’t remember who) was trying to tell me that the FBI had solved their Whitey Bulger problem and it couldn’t possibly happen again, especially not in New York. ?
Ruckus
@Repatriated:
I feel the same for me. I also road raced motorcycles. It does focus the mind doesn’t it?
Kristine
@GregB: I don’t believe the Russians needed to be involved in vote fraud/suppression. The GOP would’ve been happy to handle that by themselves.
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks, Adam. This is one of the reasons I’ve given up trying to figure out the microscopic detail of the Trump story. Marshall’s tweets don’t provide the same level of detail that the WaPo story does. He has, however, written longer pieces on Sater.
I do try to pick up on the larger pieces of the story, though, and if indeed Marshall provided the same story in those longer pieces, he must have buried the lede – that Trump was still trying to do a deal in Moscow even as he was campaigning.
I think that Marshall’s commentary is better than much on the Russian connections, but the way the articles are written makes it very, very hard to tell what is new. Did WaPo bring new detail into what Marshall reported? If I were totally following the story at full detail, that’s what I’d like to know. The only way to know that is to put the two articles side by side and compare every sentence. Much of what is in every news article on this subject is backstory. Most readers aren’t even following at the level I am, so at least a couple of paragraphs of backstory must be included; sometimes it’s half the article. There’s a bunch of it in the WaPo article, although I haven’t read it closely enough to estimate the percentage. Sometimes, sneakily, reporters toss in something new among the backstory. Or, worse, they leave something out that seems to me is important. Even if I pull out all the details, we still don’t know which ones are important and which aren’t.
A positive (so far) aspect of multiple reporters’ styling is that, because there is not yet an established storyline, they often put the facts together differently, which can lead to new insights. The downside of that is that different reporters’ versions of the same story may look different.
Comparing Marshall’s story and the WaPo story will take at least an hour. It’s not a priority for me today. Sater seems to be a major Russian connection. He’s the one the reporters are following now.
Tokyokie
@GregB: My theory (in addition to the voter roll manipulation and vote caging that Russian hacking enabled) is that Russian hackers attempted to breach elections systems across those three states to determine which counties’ systems were the most vulnerable, and armed with that knowledge, Cambridge Analytica polled the shit out of those counties to determine how many votes they could change in each precinct without drawing attention to their project. Switching say, 2% of votes in precincts covering 200,000 voters in each of those states gets you close to or beyond der Trumpenführer’s margin of victory. (And I still wonder whether the computer crash that affected voting in Detroit and probably cost Clinton the state could have been the work of the Russians.)
Betty
And yet a Facebook “friend” just re-posted a Hillary should be locked up story this morning. Ay yie yie!