This unintentional hilarity and lack of meme awareness of this headline has cracked me up all day:
I presume most people are like me in that I’m back and forth on Antifa. On one side, I hate crowds and political violence, and I think what these guys are doing to reporters is infuriating and wrong. I have some people I really trust like Lindsay Beyerstein who have really pointed me to a bunch of articles about some of the truly shitty and criminal things they are doing. I’d wager most of them are cut from the same cloth as the idiots in earlier generations who felt violence was the way to end the Vietnam war, and I guarantee if there were not neonazis for them to fight, a large number of them would be smashing the windows of Starbucks during G7 Summits.
On the other hand, Nazis. So while I certainly don’t condone their misbehavior, which I bet is limited to a few members, well, you know, Nazis. What I do think is weird though, is a corollary to this:
It says a lot that @SpeakerRyan and the modern GOP hated ACORN more than they hate Nazis.
— I'm So Over This (@Johngcole) September 2, 2017
It says a lot that the GOP and many in the modern media are more worked up about antifascists than they are the Klan and Nazis. And while Nazis have never done anything good, here is a report that shows what a lot of antifa did at Charlottesville (and this is Dahlia Lithwick, whose word is as good as Lindsay’s):
It was basically impossible to miss the antifa for the group of us who were on the steps of Emancipation Park in an effort to block the Nazis and alt-righters from entering. Soon after we got to the steps and linked arms, a group of white supremacists—I’m guessing somewhere between 20-45 of them—came up with their shields and batons and bats and shoved through us. We tried not to break the line, but they got through some of us—it was terrifying, to say the least—shoving forcefully with their shields and knocking a few folks over. We strengthened our resolve and committed to not break the line again. Some of the anarchists and anti-fascist folks came up to us and asked why we let them through and asked what they could do to help. Rev. Osagyefo Sekou talked with them for a bit, explaining what we were doing and our stance and asking them to not provoke the Nazis. They agreed quickly and stood right in front of us, offering their help and protection.
Less than 10 minutes later, a much larger group of the Nazi alt-righters come barreling up. My memory is again murky on the details. (I was frankly focused on not bolting from the scene and/or not soiling myself—I know hyperbole is common in recounting stories like these, but I was legitimately very worried for my well-being and safety, so I was trying to remember the training I had acquired as well as, for resolve, to remember why I was standing there.) But it had to have been at least 100 of them this go around. I recall feeling like I was going to pass out and was thankful that I was locked arms with folks so that I wouldn’t fall to the ground before getting beaten. I knew that the five anarchists and antifa in front of us and the 20 or so of us were no match for the 100-plus of them, but at this point I wasn’t letting go.
“Cornel West said that he felt that the antifa saved his life. I didn’t roll my eyes at that statement or see it as an exaggeration.”
At that point, more of the anarchists and antifa milling nearby saw the huge mob of the Nazis approach and stepped in. They were about 200-300 feet away from us and stepped between us (the clergy and faith leaders) and the Nazis. This enraged the Nazis, who indeed quickly responded violently. At this point, Sekou made a call that it was unsafe—it had gotten very violent very fast—and told us to disperse quickly.
While one obviously can’t objectively say what a kind of alternate reality or “sliding doors”–type situation would have been, one can hypothesize or theorize. Based on what was happening all around, the looks on their faces, the sheer number of them, and the weapons they were wielding, my hypothesis or theory is that had the antifa not stepped in, those of us standing on the steps would definitely have been injured, very likely gravely so. On Democracy Now, Cornel West, who was also in the line with us, said that he felt that the antifa saved his life. I didn’t roll my eyes at that statement or see it as an exaggeration—I saw it as a very reasonable hypothesis based on the facts we had.
So yeah, there are bad elements of Antifa, but there are no good nazis. That doesn’t seem like a radical position to hold.
schrodingers_cat
OT But Very Important.
Here is what you can do to save DACA, right now
The artificial DACA deadline repeal was brought about by 10 (now 9, since the TN AG has withdrawn from this exercise) State AGs threatening to sue the government by Sept 5 if DACA was not rescinded. Call your state AGs if you live in these 9 states.
TX, AL, AR, ID, KA, LA, NE, SC, WV. Or tweet, if that’s your thing.
ETA: Can some FPer put this is on FP? Thanks.
TenguPhule
Exactly.
What else do you have left when the cops aren’t there or aren’t willing to help?
Baud
It’s just as radical as saying Democrats are better than Republicans. Which is regarded as pretty radical.
Mnemosyne
To confuse things even more, Adam has been compiling tweets, Instagrams, and other evidence showing that Nazis have been disguising themselves as antifa at some of these protests to start fights and make the people who call themselves antifa look bad.
You do have to watch out for anarchists at all of these types of protests. As those of us in California have been saying, the Black Bloc out here is very real and well-known for starting shit at peaceful protests. But the issue is WAY overblown and is being exploited by the Nazis to their own ends.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: After consulting with Public Affairs, as well as my control officer, I can neither confirm nor deny that I am Adam, that I am compiling anything, or that I am even here. We thank you for supporting our operational security efforts.//
More seriously, I’m basically piggybacking off of the great work being done by Caroline O, the RVAwonk and several others.
https://twitter.com/RVAwonk
trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
Heard the real reason the SF “protest” was cancelled at the original location was the NPS forbade them from wearing helmets and body armor. One of their big PR-recruiting tools is helmet-cam videos of beating people up, which I believe they’ve borrowed directly from ISIS.
lowtechcyclist
Has anyone tried to do a complete accounting of all the Nazi violence in Charlottesville that weekend?
Because the conservative argument seems to be, the guy who drove the car into the crowd, killing Heather Heyer and injuring 19 others, was a one-off, and any other violence was incidental and bothsides. And now we can talk about Antifa.
But we know more bad Nazi shit went down in C’ville than just the car killer. One of them shot at a counter-demonstrator. A black guy got beat with metal poles while on the ground, resulting in substantial injuries. And of course what Lithwick describes above.
Would be nice to have as complete a reckoning as possible, to be able to point to, and say to your Fox-watching friends, “Here’s what the Nazis did just in Charlottesville. Yeah, I’m against violence by both Nazis and Antifa. But when it comes to political violence, the left is small potatoes, even if you just look at this summer.”
Major Major Major Major
They’re also getting conflated with the black bloc assholes by some media members, partly because they both have no spokespeople, partly because they share many members and many tactics, but mostly because they wear the same uniform.
trollhattan
@lowtechcyclist:
Good question. Short of that I’d show photos of that line of fully armed douches providing “security” for the costumed nazis and klansmen. There were SO many armed counter-demonstrators. Wait, I didn’t see a single one with a firearm of any kind. (Were there?)
smintheus
God I hate the Nazis. There’s going to be a Nazi rally in Bethlehem PA that I feel compelled to demonstrate against.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne:
A real false flag operation. I don’t mind Antifa as long as they do what they did in Cville. No starting fights. Let the Nazis do that and let them discredit themselves further.
Arclite
Any update on nurse Wubbel?
Gretchen
@schrodingers_cat: I didn’t know that Kansas was part of this
John Cole
@smintheus: When. I will go with you.
Adam L Silverman
@lowtechcyclist: Yes, one of the anti-capitalist groups compiled a pretty comprehensive video of all the violence. Here’s the write up:
http://www.avclub.com/bear-witness-to-this-stomach-churning-previously-unrel-1798708478
Here’s the video:
schrodingers_cat
@Gretchen: Texas AG Paxton is taking the lead, according to what I have read. Kobach is from Kansas, isn’t he? He was behind Arizona’s papers please law. So I am not surprised that KA is on the list.
Sister Golden Bear
It’s worth remembering that Black Bloc ≠ Antifas.
As Mnemosyne notes, in the Bay Area, the Black Bloc folks are well-known for hijacking otherwise peaceful demonstrations to start shit and break stuff, all the way back to when I was in college three decades ago. To the point that leftist groups planning demonstrations actually have to have plans for preventing them from doing so.
Add to that, Nazi types have been intentionally posing as Antifas/Black Bloc to start shit, and we know that there’s undercover cops also posing as both. The reporting of antifa-sparked violence at Berkeley last weekend is significantly at odds with the eyewitness accounts I’ve heard from multiple people who I trust to give an honest version of events.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Arclite: Police have issued an apology. According to the arresting detective, the orders to arrest came from his supervisor.
Surprisingly, the detective has been put on leave. When last we heard, he was off the “blood-draw squad” but still on full active duty.
schrodingers_cat
@John Cole: Why does WV AG want to end DACA? How many DACA recipients does WV have, anyway?
ETA: Just curious and asking for your insights.
Mnemosyne
@trollhattan:
Yup. I can’t believe that any police force anywhere would allow protesters to bring body armor and shields with them, but apparently the cops in Charlottesville were just that dumb.
When we had the Women’s March and March for Science here in Los Angeles, the cops announced that you couldn’t even have a stick to hold up your sign. The most you were allowed was a cardboard tube (like the kind inside a roll of wrapping paper). Anything else meant confiscation and possibly arrest.
The Charlottesville cops screwed up in many different ways, but not banning protesters from bringing weapons was a huge one, and I don’t even mean the guns. I mean the ones who brought pipes, pepper spray, shields, etc.
trollhattan
@Arclite:
I read she lawyered up, the city has apologized to her and the police have put the officer in question on desk duty, and also (ahem) revisited their policy. Evidently the event was in July and just came to light.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Arclite:
Here you go:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/
smintheus
@John Cole: I’ve been trying to figure out when it is. The other day a friend/colleague, a rabbi in Bethlehem, mentioned that a Nazi rally was happening and he was trying to prep his congregation for what is presumably a threat to their synagogue. I’ll let you know when I find out the exact time.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major:
Antifa should start wearing fruity colors to distinguish themselves, like in Zorro The Gay Blade.
mai naem mobile
When I hear the word antifa on tv or radio it sounds close to ‘intifada’. I had no idea what antifa was for a while. I just wonder how many other people,especially right wingers hear it like ‘intifada’ and then proceed to connect it to moose limbs? I don’t even understand why it’s shortened to antifa. Hell the tea baggers were called the tea baggers or tea parties. Why weren’t they called teats? Huh? Huh?
Major Major Major Major
@mai naem mobile: cuz they didn’t decide to call themselves that, unlike antifa, who has decided in their infinite wisdom that they should be a carbon copy of a punk/etc. movement in other countries from decades ago.
sukabi
@lowtechcyclist: not to mention the stockpiles of weapons and ammo they (Nazis, kkk,) stashed all over the city prior to the “protest”.
Baud
@sukabi: Was that confirmed? I thought there were conflicting accounts.
zhena gogolia
@Major Major Major Major:
The first thing I thought was intifada. It’s a really stupid name.
John Cole
@schrodingers_cat: He’s a general teahadist asshole.
MomSense
@schrodingers_cat:
For people who do not make calls or if you can’t get through to your congress critter, text RESIST to 504-09 and this free service will help you to send faxes to your Senators and Rep.
Grung_e_Gene
The nonstop propaganda effort to demonize Antifa (& #BLM) is an effort by TPTB to control dissent. If Antifa resistance is made unpalatable to the masses then all resistance can be tarnished and made unacceptable. Kaepernick’s kneeling No, unamerican blackball him!!! Blocking the street Run them Down!!!
Baud
@zhena gogolia: I thought it was people who disliked Queen Latifah.
trollhattan
@Baud:
At best, a princess.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
More from that story:
I’m studying to be a nurse so this strikes me close. Could some asshole thug cop, trying to CTA of the department, assault me for doing my job and unlawfully arrest me? Wubbels should sue that SLC police department. They need to learn that you can’t just shout and scream and beat people up until they comply.
sukabi
@Baud: per a quick Google, it looks like conflicting accounts…
Rather baffling the police response ( or lack of) to several incidences of Nazi violence against counter protesters.
Also disturbing who the feds have deemed domestic terrorists, and who are exempt.
Kathleen
@Major Major Major Major: And the media are too damned lazy to sort it out.
Shana
@Baud: Many years ago the mother of a friend was coming to visit her in the big bad city of Chicago and was worried about her daughter’s safety. Mother and friend were walking around the Lincoln Park area of the city, which is a very safe part of the city and Mom commented on all the people wearing pastel colors. Without missing a beat, daughter said “Oh, that’s how you know they’re part of their gang, the Pastellos.”
Major Major Major Major
@zhena gogolia: I’m sure many don’t mind the association.
Sister Golden Bear
@Baud: It didn’t come to pass, but a friend of mine was trying to get a bunch of people to dress up as Zorro for the counter-demonstration in SF. Would’ve been a great (and symbolic) image to see hundreds of Zorros in the streets.
Obdurodon
@TenguPhule: I’ve used almost exactly those words, but it just doesn’t seem to get through. As Lithwick’s story and others illustrate, people demonstrating peacefully often need someone else to defend that right. When the police won’t, someone else has to. It’s not pretty, but for those behind the shield to piss all over those carrying it … well, it doesn’t reflect on them very well. Pacifism and privilege don’t go well together.
Lizzy L
I posted this today on my FB page:
To my friends who think that the assholes in black masks running through the streets of the People’s Republic of Berkeley are symbolic of and PLANNING to TAKE OVER the Democratic Party — are you out of your minds?
Get a grip. Go back to worrying about Nancy Pelosi, please. Sheesh.
Major Major Major Major
@Lizzy L:
Can’t you send them somewhere else…?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Lizzy L: @Major Major Major Major: you saw that backbencher who was gonna challenge her for Minority Leader endorsed the corporate tax cut? Cause he’s got his finger on the pulse of working people.
Major Major Major Major
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Tim “why are we debating Zika funding when middle America needs jobs” Ryan? Yes.
AnonPhenom
Just some “Good ‘Ol Boys” blowing off a little steam….
But if the target of their ‘fun’ starts hitting back…Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III and the rest of the Council Of Conservative Citizens will be screaming for “Law and Order”. And The police and military will know exactly who they’re supposed to go after.
Punching Nazis is a great tactic but a shitty strategy.
d58826
OT but Der Fuhrer has been to TX again. From the NY times and I bolded his commentys that seemed a bit ODD
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/02/us/trump-harvey-texas.html?action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=65778238&pgtype=article&_r=0
Mnemosyne
@d58826:
Here’s a game show host. This is what he does. Though I think Alex Trebek or Pat Sajak would at least manage a “concerned” expression.
Adam L Silverman
@Lizzy L: Anarchists aren’t big on organization.
bystander
I’m reading this while watching “Red Dawn”. Perfect together. I haven’t seen it in years. Great movie, and so timely, if not exactly what Milius had in mind.
trollhattan
@Adam L Silverman:
Plowing all the way through the video is eye-opening but the tiki-torch march and chanting are what sticks with me. The battle gear and provocation of the next day show them getting what they wanted at the time but the night before shows what they aspire to.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@bystander:
No offense, but Red Dawn was a terrible movie. Wolverines! The idea that the Soviet Union could have ever invaded the United States without a complete and utterly devastating first strike is insane. The SU never had that intention in the first place. The SU was always weaker than the West. Also a bunch of teenagers fighting a professional army? Talk about unrealistic:
father pussbucket
First gastritis and now Antifa. When will it end?
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: Pretty much.
Teddys Person
@d58826:
Mnemosyne
@trollhattan:
They want people to be too cowed and frightened to show up to counter-protest. That’s why having overwhelming numbers of counter-protestors is so important — it makes it harder for them to use their weapons.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne:
Do they not care that their ideology is overwhelmingly unpopular?
Lyrebird
This. I’m quite ready to believe that the worst elements of Antifa are dangerous and difficult… and of course defer to Adam for more facts. But them compared to the centuries of history of domestic terrorism against Black people in this country? Heck, even my bleach-white Irish ancestors weren’t white in the eyes of the Klan.
I went to a left-leaning college. WHen I was there, a varied coalition of students took over the administration offices briefly. It was an incredibly lame sit-in as such things go, but also EVER so educational. Because on the evening news up and down the east coast, even though our campus BSU had voted not to support the takeover and I would guess there were more white students protesting than any other group involved, all they could say was, “Black radicals take over XYZ College!”
Mnemosyne
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Why would they care? In fact, that makes it even better, as far as they’re concerned — the idea that they could force their ideology on people who hate it and hate them but are powerless to stop them is what they fucking live for.
That’s why they want to march in Black neighborhoods and places like Skokie, IL, which had the highest proportion of Holocaust survivors living in the United States. They want to flaunt that they’re in control and there’s nothing their enemies can do about it.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne:
They sound like cartoon villains when you put it like that, gloating and rubbing their hands together with glee. Neo-nazi scum is scummy.
Mnemosyne
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Nah, just garden-variety assholes. You would be shocked at how many seemingly normal people are assholes who get a charge out of having power over someone else, no matter how small that power is. Ask anyone who works at a Starbucks.
Amaranthine RBG
The only thing Antifa is doing wrong is that they are not more heavily armed.
jl
Antifa are goofballs, Black block are assholes. I think they are a very small proportion of protesters most places.
But in SF Bay area, particularly East Bay, there is a lot of them. And they are a pain the ass.
Sure, they come out to slap people around and smash and burn stuff if Trumpster and alt right are demonstrating.
But they come out to do that no matter who is demonstrating, and it is a big pain in the ass.
But, call me up when they’ve managed to put people in the WH. Then they might be a big problem in the big scheme of things.
In the meantime they are ass holes.
mskitty
@Amaranthine RBG You are a troll. Are you even American?
J R in WV
No doubt there are people in the AntiFascist who are rude violent people. Just like some cops will brutally arrest a nurse defending the law and her patient’s privacy. But most cops, and most antifascists are good folks.
And personally, anyone willing to take on an armed Nazi and beat the crap out of them, more power to them! I’m too old and disabled, but I can sure cheer them on. Nothing more despicable than a Nazi, except perhaps a Nazi Republican?
Swannie
F*ck the Nazis and f*ck Antifa. They’re all fascists.
Swannie
@J R in WV: Antifa wears masks, carries clubs, and beats up anyone they suspect of being a Nazi. Their definition of “Nazi” includes anyone trying to take pictures or videos.
LongHairedWeirdo
I am in *no* way making the claim that no Antifa misbehavior has occurred. Not at all.
But after the post-Charlottesville reaction was “but why isn’t anyone talking about Antifa?” I realized that it would be *awfully* easy to do a false-flag attack – all you see is a black-clad, black-masked person. And when I heard “swinging bats” and “rushing in with clubs”, *AND* I heard “but what about Antifa? Sure, they didn’t murder anyone, but still….” I wondered why we’re not seeing all the social media pictures of the really picturesque bruises one gets from a bat or a stick that counts as a “club” rather than a “stick”.
Again: I am not saying there is not any misbehavior – I’m not denying property destruction, or assault is occurring. I merely realized that a simple report of an attack, even supported by a photograph, isn’t trustworthy. Let’s also note that, even without padding, it’s possible to do a lot of “kicking” of someone without causing any damage. (slaps with the instep look like a kick – but the instep is sensitive enough that you can tell you’re not hurting the target).
Let’s not trust the rightwing to be entirely honest in trying to vilify people they can paint as leftists. Remember, Antifa isn’t a “liberal” organization (a given since it’s not really organized), but it’s their whipping boy, and you know damn well they’re willing to lie to make their target look bad.
Swannie
@LongHairedWeirdo: “They have eyes, but they don’t see. They have ears, but they don’t hear. “
jl
@LongHairedWeirdo: I think it is important to make the point, very clearly, that antifa and black bloc have nothing to do with liberals, or Democrats, or Hillbots, or Bernibros, or social democrats or democratic socialists, or Black Lives Matter, or anybody on ‘the left’. Making a big deal about a few idiot anarchist thugs is the product of KKK Nazis and al rightists looking for something to distract from their own poison, and dickweeds looking for some bothsiderism to avoid saying anything useful.
Trying to associate those two groups of nihilist anarchist thugs (who just like to hit people and smash stuff and set trash fires) with ‘the left’ is a smear and needs to be called out.
Talk to liberal activists in Oakland who try to stage demonstrations against police brutality, corruption and economic injustice, only to have some antifa or black bloc thugs wreck the demonstrations. Talk to liberal, often black and other minority small business owners who were supporting the demonstrations until they couldn’t take having their stuff wrecked for no reason by anarchist assholes.
Some of the anarchists are worse than others. I think like some of the slacks and polo shirt Nazis, they are just knucklehead youths play acting. But some of them are just thugs, just like many of the Nazi and alt right are thugs.
They are assholes. In most places, they have much much smaller numbers than the al right. And as far as the big picture, like I said before, call me when they have representatives in the White House.
jl
And, I think much of the fuss is created as a diversionary tactic by fascists, white supremacists, and alt righters. I notice reactionary demonstrations announced in the news, and weird youtubes warning about Marxiam, commies and such like nonsense.
the effort would be laughable, except for the fact that there are a few antifa and black bloc nincompoops who will run into a demonstration, any demonstration, they do not care at all (I know, I’ve seen it happen in SF Bay Area) and sucker punch, pepper spray, smash stuff and see if they can set a trash fire. They can go to hell.
Arclite
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Thanks for the info on Nurse Wubbels, everyone.
gorram
@Baud: Google the pink bloc, it already exists.
gorram
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Seems as though they look at that as a feature not necessarily a bug since:
a) that’s just fodder for the pre-existing persecution complexes if not a full blown self narrative about how they, and they alone, face the hard facts and see the reality as it is (they love thinking of themselves that way, as the only ones brave enough to be racists)
and
b) it demonstrates how narrow a group of people it is which stands to benefit from their politics which serves as a sort of quality assurance that yes in fact these policies will be really racist and antisemitic, among other things often (and them being decried as such is something many of them like because they like the idea of targeted people being terrified of what could happen to them – they view that as their empowerment).
gorram
@jl: I was at 3 out of the 4 rallies in Berkeley this past Spring and it was fascinating seeing the pro-fascist side describe everyone protesting them as bitter Hillary supporters. More often than not, the black bloc parts of antifa would answer by specifically saying the voted for Bernie – and both sides would agree on their preference for him, the antifa because they want more substantive challenges to capitalism that they perceived him as advancing in ways she wouldn’t and the fascists because they perceived his policy plank as perpetuating the White supremacist biases that already exist in social programs. Every time this happened people tended to get a bit mum, unsure of how to understand this weird convergence of political stars.
It’s worth noting how much the scattered remaining BPP elements in the area have been in alliance with Black Bloc groups from the counter-protest to Yiannopoulos in February on. The last rally, a counterprotest to the “free speech” rally the fascists were having in answer to Charlottesville, saw a kind of broadened version of this – there were definitely Black Bloc people there, and I presume many of the same scattered neo-BPP groups, but also less distinctive antifa blocs and corresponding community organizers (primarily faith-based, but firmly social justice ones, largely within Latin@ and Black community churches, but also Kamau Bell).
Antifa runs the gamut from communist to anarchist in specific political vision, but it’s interesting to note how much within the Bay Area at least, it’s built on existing leftist organizing tendencies and a reflection of them (for ill or for good). I’d say it’s certainly much more vocal about racism and similar issues than the pro-Bernie set its largely recruited from were, and as a result has these relationships with local communities of color that that earlier set of politics didn’t. They still are anti-capitalists, of course, but now there’s a specific rejection of curtailing market competition to the benefit of Whites and Whites alone.