Sean Hannity just now: "I talked to Julian Assange, he says it's not Russia. I just spoke to @DanaRohrabacher and he believes him."
— Yashar Ali ?? (@yashar) September 6, 2017
Per Reuters:
President Donald Trump’s oldest son, Donald Trump Jr., will testify privately to the Senate Judiciary Committee on Thursday as it investigates allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election.
Trump Jr. had been invited to testify in public in a hearing in July, but reached an agreement to speak privately with committee staff.
“We look forward to a professional and productive meeting and appreciate the opportunity to assist the committee,” Alan Futerfas, a lawyer for Trump Jr., said in a statement on Wednesday…
Separately, Susan Rice, who was national security adviser for former President Barack Obama, testified on Tuesday before the House Intelligence Committee for about four hours.
Erin Pelton, a spokeswoman for Rice, said she had met voluntarily with the committee as part of its investigation. “Ambassador Rice remains fully supportive of bipartisan efforts to determine the extent and scope of Russia’s outrageous efforts to interfere in the 2016 election,” she said in a statement.
Rice had been subpoenaed by the committee as it looked into Republican concerns about whether anyone from the administration of Obama, a Democrat, had asked to “unmask” names of Trump campaign advisers picked up in top-secret foreign communications intercepts…
The Repubs will be all too eager to gin up more misogynistic/racist bullshit about Rice, but outside of the Fox-bubble, the real news will be how much Donny Junior gives away during / after his “private conversation”. I’ll bet the unfortunate Secret Service agents assigned to look after him are individually and collectively reconsidering their career choices, possibly over a few dozen adult beverages.
Big Daddy’s personal lawyer seems to be feeling some strain, too also…
NEW: Ty Cobb says in leaked emails that he&Kelly are the "adults in the room"—and explains why he's repping Trump https://t.co/dFoOIrHwOU
— Natasha Bertrand (@NatashaBertrand) September 6, 2017
Mother Jones explicates:
In a bizarre late-night email exchange, President Donald Trump’s top White House lawyer working on the Russia scandal, Ty Cobb, said that he was serving in the White House because “more adults” were needed there and noted that he had made a financial sacrifice in order to take the job.
Cobb, a high-profile Washington, DC, lawyer well-known for defending companies and individuals facing government investigations, was put on the White House payroll by Trump in July. His mission: to serve as counsel handling matters related to the assorted Russia investigations under way…
Cobb’s interlocutor was, improbably, the owner of a Washington noodle shop called Toki. This restauranteur, Jeff Jetton, has been something of a mixer or an amateur investigator in the Russia scandal… On Tuesday evening, Jetton emailed Cobb out of the blue, having figured out Cobb’s White House email address. The two had never met or corresponded…
Not gonna try to summarize the ensuing tsuris, but believe me: it’s worth reading the whole thing.
And to finish the Three Stooges trilogy, remember this mook, Devin Nunes?
Nunes vents anger at Sessions over subpoena, threatens to hold AG, FBI chief in contempt – CNNPolitics https://t.co/f7htze6d36
— Jake Tapper (@jaketapper) September 6, 2017
House Intelligence Chairman Devin Nunes lashed out at Attorney General Jeff Sessions last week in a letter where he threatened Sessions with a public grilling if he doesn’t produce documents about the Russia dossier to the House intelligence committee.
Nunes, who despite stepping aside from directing the House Russia investigation has been leading his own separate investigation, accused Sessions and the FBI of stonewalling him repeatedly in a September 1 letter obtained by CNN. In the letter, he threatened to drag Sessions and FBI Director Christopher Wray before the committee for a public grilling and hold them in contempt of Congress — a jailable offense — if they don’t hand over the documents…
In the letter, which was signed only by Nunes and no other members of the House intelligence committee, Nunes explained that he was extending the deadline for responding to the subpoenas to September 14. But he capped it off with a sharp threat…
Asked to comment, Nunes told a CNN reporter Tuesday evening: “I’m not talking to you guys.”…
But Rep. Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the panel, said the pair of subpoenas were issued over his objections last month and are designed to “undermine” the claims about the Trump campaign and the Kremlin.
The subpoenas seek information about what the FBI knows about the compilation of the Russia dossier and coincides with a push by the committee to bring in Steele, the report’s author and a former British spy…
Baud
So no denial by Putin? Telling.
Chris
Well I’m convinced. But just for the doubting Thomases out there, can we get a little independent confirmation from trustworthy sources? Like maybe Ames and Hanssen?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
Well if Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Tsentralny federalny okrug) says he believes Assange then it must be true.
Gin & Tonic
I can’t think of three guys I’d trust more than Hannity, Assange and Rohrabacher.
Well, maybe I could.
Another Scott
Thanks for the MoJo linky. Interesting.
People are complicated, and aren’t easy to put in boxes, but I agree with Jettson:
Yup.
Cheers,
Scott.
clay
Assange could easily prove it wasn’t Russia by releasing Wikileaks’ source for the hacked DNC and Podesta e-mails.
I’ll be over here, not holding my breath.
?BillinGlendaleCA
Wait, so taxpayers are paying for Trump’s defense? Wow, the Clintons must be fit to be tied.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
How the fuck will this all end?
Gin & Tonic
@clay: If Assange told me the sky was blue I wouldn’t believe him.
germy
http://kikoshouse.blogspot.com/2017/06/a-comprehensive-timeline-of-russia.html
Baud
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: That’s like asking who’ll win The Apprentice. You gotta keep watching to find out.
Mike in NC
Donny Jr has an even more punchable face than his old man, and that’s really saying something.
Adam L Silverman
@germy:
This phrasing, especially in the original Russian, was not an accident. The gendered connotations were purposefully made by Putin.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Adam L Silverman:
No puppet!
No puppet!
You’re da puppet!!
Ruviana
@Adam L Silverman: I don’t know Russian and I wondered about the gendered component of that statement, particularly given Putin’s hypermasculine cosplay.
Another Scott
Reuters:
Good, good.
Follow every lead.
We can’t let foreign powers so distort our elections that they affect the results.
Cheers,
Scott.
efgoldman
Wait a minute. When Nunes (who is only slightly less intelligent than a casaba melon) stepped down from heading the house investigation several months ago, wasn’t the consensus that he was involved and had some exposure in Russkiegate?
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
Its not gay if Trump has no balls to touch.
TenguPhule
@efgoldman:
Yes.
TenguPhule
@Gin & Tonic:
Technically it isn’t.
mike in dc
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Most likely, if proof of coordination is found, with a swath of indictments, a change in control of Congress, and the first removal of a sitting president via impeachment. Alternatively, it will end with a record-setting defeat of an incumbent, by 20+ points.
TenguPhule
I am shocked, shocked that Nunes continues to carry water for Trump and the Russians.
Old Broad in California
That Mother Jones article is interesting. As a retired lawyer, I’m frankly shocked at how much Trump’s attorneys seem willing to blab to the press and to random strangers.
sigaba
Devin Nunes is the hedgehog, he knows One Big Thing.
TenguPhule
@Old Broad in California:
He that stiffs his own lawyers reaps the whirlwind.
sigaba
@Old Broad in California:
This is all about working the press. Trump’s lawyers know that prior to any criminal hearing, the likelihood of which is remote, there’s going to be stupendous food fight fought in the press. Cobb’s email chain bears all the hallmarks of an orchestrated leak.
Adam L Silverman
@Ruviana: From AMB McFaul, who was our ambassador in Moscow:
And:
efgoldman
@Old Broad in California:
Either they have no idea how properly to defend their client, or maybe they’re trying to build a Sam Shepherd defense: can’t get a fair trial because of pre-trial publicity.
germy
Baud
@Adam L Silverman:
Он не моя собака. Я не его папа.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: The key question here is who was the American/were the Americans that directed the Russian ad buyers and ad writers so that this campaign could be effective? That’s what has to be run to ground.
Gin & Tonic
@Ruviana: It’s more, um, obvious in Russian.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: Yes it was, but he didn’t formally recuse himself. And he’s made it clear that 1) he can take back over anytime and 2) because he’s chairman of the committee he can do whatever he wants, including issuing subpoenas and questioning witnesses regardless of what anyone else wants. As a result he’s basically running his own parallel inquiry intended to complete discredit the committee’s inquiry, the Senate Intel and Judiciary committees inquiries, Bob Mueller and his inquiry.
SiubhanDuinne
I feel so much more reassured now.
Adam L Silverman
@Old Broad in California: They’re not sending their best…
efgoldman
@germy:
Somehow, I just don’t feel sorry for him.
Ruviana
@Adam L Silverman: Yep.
Adam L Silverman
@Baud: I speak even less Russian that AMB McFaul. However, I am definitely my dogs’ dad. They love their papa!
Baud
@Adam L Silverman: Mine too. Dogs are the best.
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: Nice.
zhena gogolia
@Adam L Silverman:
But Putin says, “He’s not my nevesta [bride or fiancee], and I’m not his nevesta, not his zhenikh [groom or fiance].” He refers to himself as a “nevesta” (fem.) as well. So it’s not quite so clear-cut.
germy
@efgoldman:
The “thump test” when applied to a casaba can tell you if it’s ripe, but you hear just a dull thud if you try the same test on Nunes.
efgoldman
@Adam L Silverman:
He will be as a horse fly on a cow’s ass. A minor annoyance, but at least as far as Mueller and his team are concerned, of no consequence.
Of course, if he starts releasing testimony or documents that keep the information from being used in the criminal inquiry, that sort of obvious obstruction won’t fly.
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: From what I could find, here’s the original: «Он же не моя невеста, чтобы разочаровывать. И я не его невеста, не жених»
To me, the “not mine to disappoint” is interesting.
germy
Is it possible this whole shitshow ends like the last episode of Seinfeld, with the bunch of them sitting together in a jail cell?
Redshift
@efgoldman:
Yes, but it’s important to remember that he didn’t actually recuse himself. He “stepped back” informally from the investigation, but he’s still chair of the committee unless Ryan removes him, and still has authority over the committee issuing subpoenas (or not issuing them.) Even after his ridiculous Trump-ass-kissing stunt.
Yet another action that the press refuses to even think about holding Ryan accountable for.
Adam L Silverman
@zhena gogolia: I will leave it for you Russian speakers to work it out. I’m of the impression that Putin does not speak in an uncalculated manner. However, as a non-Russian speaker you all will know better than I what the subtext is.
Baud
@germy:
?It’s something unpredictable, but in the end it’s right
I hope you had the time of your life.?
SiubhanDuinne
@germy:
Redshift
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
IIRC, Cobb’s position is protecting the office of the presidency, not Trump personally, which is why he’s paid by the White House.
Baud
@SiubhanDuinne: My other brother Daryl!
Redshift
@SiubhanDuinne: I would never wish that on her. Though better her than all of us, I suppose.
Baud
@Redshift: How Nietzschen.
germy
@SiubhanDuinne: Speaking of waking up next to Suzanne Pleshette, I see that the latest Kevin James sitcom features Leah Remini. They killed off Kevin’s TV wife and brought in Leah to play his boss.
El Caganer
What a relief to know that consulting detective Devin Nunes is on the case. “Come, Rohrabacher! The game’s afoot!”
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic:
The whole thing is sick and weird.
NickM
That comment is so awkward I was wondering if Putin was tweaking Trump about something he’s got on tape.
zhena gogolia
@Adam L Silverman:
It’s insulting, no question, but I guess he hedges it a tiny bit by referring to himself as a nevesta as well.
Adam L Silverman
@zhena gogolia: I will defer to your linguistic fluency on the matter.
Gin & Tonic
And, since we’re talking about languages, my other favorite blog, Language Log, shares a delightful political poster, apparently from the NSW provincial elections, in which the Chinese- and Arabic-speaking communities are urged to not vote Labor (not “Labour”??) if they do not wish their children to become homosexuals nor to learn how to “sponke their monkeys.”
I’m thinking that children have been figuring out on their own how to sponke their monkeys since time immemorial, but who am I to judge?
different-church-lady
Actual adults do not need to spend a lot of time talking about the fact that they are adults.
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: Weird indeed. I’m trying to envision any other world leader saying something similar, and I can’t.
El Caganer
@Gin & Tonic: What year was that the big country hit? “If you got a nickel, baby/I’ve got a dime/We’ll go monkey sponkin’/And have a real good time.”
Another Scott
@zhena gogolia: While we’re trying to figure out what Vlad is really saying, is anyone else struck by how weirdly he walks?
Oh, old news I guess. Gunslinger’s Gait, supposedly.
It used to be you (supposedly) could pick out the KGB enforcers as the big, burly, Eastern-European guys who never smiled. Now you just have to look for the ones who hold their dominant arm stiff when they walk? Makes it too easy, doesn’t it?
;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
different-church-lady
@germy: How fuckin’ dumb do you have to be to get into a voluntary internet pissing match while representing the President of the United States?
different-church-lady
@SiubhanDuinne: Why would you want to reward them like that?
sdhays
@germy: So Trump’s minion here is more compliant with the Emoluments Clause than Trump himself. Why couldn’t he just have his pet dog/stupid son “run” his retirement account while he’s on the taxpayer’s dime?
jonas
Wait, so Nunes supposedly subpoenas Sessions to get info on Trump/Russia *over* Schiff’s objections. And Session *still* stonewalls? The article seems to imply that Sessions’s Justice Department is sitting on info that would vindicate Trump, but Nunes can’t get it from him and is now threatening prosecution? I’m sorry, I’m not following. Start with WTF is Nunes doing still with his fingers in the Russia investigation….
The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
So what are the odds that the Republican co-conspirators (but I repeat myself) can actually derail Mueller’s investigation?
Another Scott
@different-church-lady: Unlike some other speculation here tonight, I don’t think there was some grand scheme to poison the jury pool or something. I think (the vast majority of) the people working in Donnie’s administration are way over their heads. They don’t know the rules, they don’t know the norms, they don’t know the pitfalls, they don’t have the temperament, and they don’t know what they’re doing.
(Almost) nobody sensible with previous experience would want to work for him there.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Davebo
And if you’re in Miami, get out. Catch a flight. Tomorrow morning. You’ll be gouged by any airline but do it.
It’s going to suck in Miami this weekend.
efgoldman
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:
Pretty small, I think. They may slow walk and “miss” evidence in the house/senate investigations, but Mueller is another matter. Also there’s the parallel investigation by the NY AG, which no-one in DC can control or derail.
Adam L Silverman
@jonas: Nunes is still pushing the talking points that the dossier was a Democratic Party/HRC campaign/Soros funded hit and smear job on the President. None of this is true. He also is pushing the talking points that it was partially created by the FBI, possibly in conjunction with the CIA, then laundered through Christopher Steele to make it look legit to the “mainstream media”. This is also not true.
Part of the reason the FBI and DOJ aren’t going to hand anything over is that the dossier is being handled as part of Special Counsel Mueller’s investigation, which has control over the Interagency Counterintelligence Task Force. The FBI/DOJ analysis is no highly compartmented. And Nunes, who has publicly and repeatedly demonstrated that he cannot maintain classification, does not need to know. DOJ/FBI is working to preserve the compartmentation necessary for the CI task force and the Special Counsel’s investigation to do their work.
Adam L Silverman
@Davebo: Jet Blue has capped flights out of Miami and Ft. Lauderdale at $99.
randy khan
@Adam L Silverman:
I’d been wondering. It seemed very specific.
efgoldman
@Adam L Silverman:
He’s such a dumb ass. Does he know, i wonder, that he likely has exposure for at least conspiracy charges. Surely his private counsel (assuming he has one) has told him that.
Another Scott
@Adam L Silverman: Good for them.
Reminds me of (an apparent rerun of) a story on NPR:
Why economists love price gouging and why it is so rare:
Too many economists (and MBAs) seem to think that consumers have no memory of past behavior…
Cheers,
Scott.
jonas
@Adam L Silverman: Ok, makes sense now. Thanks!
efgoldman
@Another Scott:
Too many economists forget or ignore that humans have human needs and reactions.
Jeffro
@Another Scott: They think we’re rational beings, is their first screw up. And in a way we are, but we’re also making emotional and historical and reputational calculations along with the straight-up supply/demand ones.
Jeffro
@efgoldman: Great minds and all that ;)
Captain C
@NickM: I was wondering that, myself. I’m trying not to think about that one too much.
mike in dc
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:
Too many holes to plug…Mueller…Schneiderman…the Intelligence Community…the FBI…the media…the Democrats…foreign intelligence services and foreign media…just too hard to shut down every source/leak of damning information. Shutting it down–or trying to– also exposes them to obstruction charges.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: Who knows. Unless he’s an amazing actor he’s clearly dumb as a box of rocks.
MomSense
@germy:
I wasn’t crazy about that ending for Seinfeld but I love that ending for the trump show.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: I’m all in favor of taking the person who came up with the idea of the MBA, or perhaps business school in general, trying him (it’s gotta be a him, right?) for crimes against humanity, and then executing him in a slow, painful, gruesome, and public manner. Preferably over several days or a week or two. Maybe a month.
Adam L Silverman
@jonas: You’re welcome.
Adam L Silverman
@Jeffro: And no one has perfect information. Including, if not especially, economists.
StringOnAStick
@efgoldman: Nunes may or may not have private counsel, but if he does you just know it is a fellow right winger and probably from his district. That means small time lawyer who only consumes RW media and is siloed in his thinking that mango moron and his minion Nunes are doing what Jesus wants and requires. I’d be shocked if he had a “real” DC lawyer that isn’t a blinkered ideologue.
encephalopath
When it comes time to figure out who the Russians were assisting in their attempts to elect Republicans, the name Devin Nunes is going to come up over and over. Actively assisting the Russians in their election ratfucking, Devin Nunes.
He’s running for his life right now in a desperate attempt to stay out of prison.
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2017/09/oh-look-more-evidence-that-gop-congress.html
jl
@Another Scott: Thanks for the link. I am an economist and found it interesting. The link in the NPR story to the survey itself is very interesting and I’m going to follow that survey from now on.
My main take away, after following the link to the survey in the NPR story and reading all the economists’ responses, is that I am more convinced than ever that NPR’s economic reporting and analysis is absolute crap. The NPR story misrepresented most of the economists who responded ‘disagree’. Most of them, particularly most of the economists in the survey who have reputation at all for understanding markets under conditions of great uncertainty and stress, said that the law was so vague it might make suppliers afraid of doing business. To put it differently, most of the economists threw up their hands and played lawyer on the question.
I think only people on that panel who have special expertise to really have some special and interesting insight on what would happen in reality versus in theory were Thaler, Deaton and Hart. Both Thaler and Deaton were for the bill. (edit: Hart not listed among the respondents for some reason)
And if Ray Fair is so unhappy with CT, he should move is efficiency-loving ass someplace else. Fair, like a lot of the others have done nothing theoretically or empirically that gives them any special insight into this particular question and I don’t care what they say.
I don’t listen to NPR news and economic reporting much because it irritates me no end. Thanks for the post, since more evidence for me that it’s work on economic ranges from worthless to worse than worthless. Something very very bad going on with economics at NPR. I don’t know if it is totebagger arrogance, or reactionary moles doing propaganda, or just dingbats. but whatever it is, it is very bad.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: When you feel like it, please tell us what you really think.//
Old Dan and Little Anne
I was at U2 in Buffalo last night so I missed American Horror Story: Cult. Holy fuck balls. I just watched it. Their take on the election is all kinds of madness. And realistic.
efgoldman
@Adam L Silverman:
I would have thought an educated person such as yourself wouldn’t insult boxes of rocks, which are useful in some ways.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: OK/ I was being generous with the ‘absolute crap’.
Redshift
@jl:
In fact, it sounds like not doing so makes him a big hypocrite!
Adam L Silverman
@jl: Don’t hold back now…
Chet Murthy
@Another Scott: I think you’re being far too generous to those economists. They all know full well that any such demand signal takes time to elicit a supply response. In the interim, the supply remains the same, but with higher prices, effective demand decreases to only those who can afford to pay the higher price. In short, rationing by price occurs. And the all know full well, that for life-saving goods, rationing by price is the same as valuing the poor’s lives at less than those of the rich.
Thing is, they think this is a good thing.
Gretchen
@Adam L Silverman: I’m a non-Russian speaker who took 2 years of college level Russian. And that’s really just scraping the surface. Between the declensions and the genders, Russian is infinitely complicated and capable of incredible nuance depending on how the words are ordered. Two years of hard study barely gave me the ability to order lunch. My kids had a Russian piano teacher, and she’d laugh that her son, who was born in a Russian-speaking household, didn’t really get all the complications since he wasn’t Russian-educated. So, yes, every little shade of anything Putin says has meaning.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: Economists assume that all interactions are “rational” and that all transactions occur in in a historical vacuum. This is not the case.
efgoldman
@Chet Murthy:
True Friedmanites think humans have no intrinsic value. At least, that’s what it seemed to me when Milton Friedman’s column appeared regularly in Newsweek.
Mike J
“I never made a mini roll in ma life. Why would I?”
Villago Delenda Est
@efgoldman:
Well, in the case of Friedman, he was correct.
Cheryl Rofer
Michael Cohen, Trump’s personal lawyer and (apparently) good buddy of Felix Sater, gave a long interview to Vanity Fair. Seems to me like a bad idea, but it’s up to him and his attorney. I haven’t read it yet because this time of day is not my thinking time. Will read it tomorrow morning.
jl
@Chet Murthy: Actually, and sadly, three or four well-known economists indicated that they did not realize that in the very short run, there would be no substantial supply response to a price hike.
I read every response and the comments. Most of the economists who said ‘disagree’ and made a comment said that they were worried that the law was so vague it might discourage merchants from stocking goods. Which sounds far fetched to me, but is at least defensible. Anyway, they weren’t looking at it from mainly a simple minded supply = demand = perfection point of view. Sadly, a few did boil it down to that simple minded level.
But like I said, only four of five of the economists on the panel have done anything that would give them any special insight into that question in terms of what would likely actually happen.
efgoldman
@jl:
You mean like: Lived a real life in the real world?
That seems to be a common shortcoming of many academics in many fields.
jl
Forgot to say that I looked into this thread because I found the name ‘Ty Cobb’ in this context unsettling. But that is just a coincidence, I hope.
Another Scott
@jl: Glad to help!! ;-)
Seriously, I agree that their economics reporting is often abysmal. Dunno if it’s the network itself or the shows they choose to syndicate. I often end up nearly screaming at the radio when “Marketplace” is on. I don’t think they mentioned the word “unemployment” more than half-a-dozen times during the whole Great Recession. (At least it seemed that way.) :-/ . But Kai has seemed much better the last couple of time’s I’ve heard snippets of the show (but he’s climbing up out of a pretty deep hole IMO).
I’m a STEM guy but I did a work-study with Victor Zarnowitz when I was in college. I had at least one argument with one of his grad students about whether (IIRC) someone responding to Zarnowitz’s surveys (asking for their best guess on GDP growth for the next quarter) would much rather be right or have a new, elegant model… VZ agreed with me that most people would want to be right. Weird people, those young economists. ;-)
But, honestly, I think that every expert cringes when they hear their field described in the popular media. I remember cringing when I saw how butchered a puff piece about a high school play I was in ended up… It’s just what happens far too often.
Anyway, don’t give up. Reporting won’t get better if they don’t get push-back about it from the experts occasionally.
Cheers,
Scott.
efgoldman
@jl:
He’s apparently a distant relative of the HOF ballplayer.
Original Lee
Since open thread: The DACA rescission is already talking some weird turns. The friend of a friend was doing the paperwork with his employer for health insurance coverage for his children on Tuesday. (I have no idea why he was doing this now.) He is originally from Brazil and speaks with a bit of an accent; he has also been a U.S. citizen for 9 years. The insurance company insisted that he provide proof that he is a naturalized U.S. citizen. He was flabbergasted. He’s been working for this company for over 5 years, so presumably everybody knows he’s a U.S. citizen. That information should be part of his personnel file. He gave them a copy of his passport, but that was insufficient (!!!!), so he had to go to the bank and get his naturalization paperwork out of the safe deposit box, scan it, and send it to the insurance company before they were satisfied. He also made a couple of electronic and paper copies while he was at it, pushed a couple copies to different places in the cloud, took a photo to keep in his phone, etc. He told my friend he feels as if he’s got a Border Patrol target on his back all the time now. WTF!
jl
@efgoldman: OK. You are a lawyer, is that right? You in a position to throw rocks at how people make a living?
What I meant was, economists who have done research into, and are experts, in what happens in consumer and retail markets in various unusual and high risk situations, highly asymmetric and limited information, understand insurance and options aspects of institutional settings and customs and legal frameworks and/or what happens when standard assumptions are violated.
Nordhaus is an excellent environmental and resource economists, and he is doing very good work, on the good side, on climate change. But understanding risk and insurance is not his strong suite and sometimes it shows.
Chet Murthy
@jl: Oh hm, I thought of something else: EVEN IF you (erm: “one”) assume that the supply response were instantaneous, the response is to the “increased price signal”, right? Which means, again, that there’ll be people who are unable to buy, b/c too poor. Seems to me that’s a basic flaw in the entire idea of using Econ 101 as a basis for the provision of life-sustaining goods — unless one’s willing to subsidize the poorest, one -is- consigning them to death.
Mike J
@jl:
Guessing Nunes is not related to the Red Sox player.
Adam L Silverman
@Original Lee: Tell the friend to tell his friend he should carry a copy of his naturalization papers with him at all times. If he should be scarfed up it is incumbent on him, not the government, to verify his citizenship and he doesn’t get a lawyer. And thanks to a recent Federal court decision he has no recourse via the law/courts even as a US citizen. Right now better safe than sorry.
danielx
@Gin & Tonic:
How about Ponzi, Madoff and Goebbels?
Chet Murthy
@Original Lee: Aw, hell, close friend had a fuckin’ county cop stop her in large TX city (where she’s lived since 1975). Asked for her proof of citizenship (been citizen since 1982, been fricken election _judge_). She said “I’m pretty sure I don’t need to carry that with me, but let me get my lawyer friend on the phone and we can discuss further”. Fuckin’ cop disappeared -right- quick.
If I lived in that goddamn state (which I wouldn’t without a large private army) I’d for sure carry a passport card with me at all times. And yeah, copies everywhere including with friends who are willing to be woken at 3am.
jl
@Chet Murthy: Yes, OK, I see now. I assumed that if you could get a ‘normal’ supply response in a few days, or during, or right after a blizzard or a hurricane, or right after, at a hardware or food store, supply would be so elastic that it would not be exorbitant anymore.
But what about a pharmacy? I didn’t think about that one.
I think the law was poorly written, but simple minded supply = demand = nirvana at whatever price is simple minded. You need a lot of assumptions for that simple minded formula to work.
divF
@Another Scott: The first time I saw that article, I thought of Robin Williams’ line in Birdcage: “Actually, it’s perfect. I just never realized John Wayne walked like that.”
Omnes Omnibus
@jl: He is not a lawyer and you should not take offense so easily. I am a lawyer and we get shit upon everyday. Yeah, and when we explain why something unpleasant happens, we have to say that “It sucks, but that is the way the law works.” As an economist, just explain the assumptions that were made. It will fix everything. Ha, fucking ha,
Villago Delenda Est
@Adam L Silverman: That.Is.Insane. The policies of Nazi Germany.
Chet Murthy
@Adam L Silverman: @Original Lee: Adam, I believe (per a thread a while back here, or maybe at LGM) that one is forbidden to copy one’s certificate of naturalization. You can order a dupe for …. some nontrivial sum. A passport is supposed to count, but it’s also precious. So there’s a “passport card” one can get, that is accepted for re-entry to the US, but not for international travel. My understanding is, that’s the thing you carry around.
dww44
@jl: I agree about NPR news being highly irritating and in my case the irritation frequently morphs on over to righteous anger.
Have you ever listened to “MarketPlace” hosted by Kai Ryssdal? The show is largely toothless and therefore worthless and my take is that they do tilt right. Their stories are overwhelmingly superficial. To be fair, though, Marketplace is produced not by NPR but by APM ( American Public Media)
Adam L Silverman
@Mike J: Nope, just a wealthy family in the Azores that owns a lot of land. Which is why he’s spent every minute he’s been on the intel committee trying to move all of the US SIGINT facilities to his families property in the Azores.
Another Scott
@Chet Murthy: Good points. I don’t know what they presumably should know, but (I believe it was) Krugman noted that there are things that might be described as “category errors” when one tries to scale-up microeconomic ideas (like supply always rises to meet demand) with macroeconomic ideas – like whether price gouging makes sense in a catastrophe or even works the day after.
An economy should be based on more than whether there is always one more can of beans or one more snow shovel in the store. Economies are human constructs and should be constructed to (mostly) efficiently move goods and services while also being sustainable, dynamic, and fair to people. People shouldn’t be the servants of The Economy. People have memories, and use them.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Original Lee
@Adam L Silverman: I’ll pass that on. I’m pretty sure he has a paper copy in his wallet, plus he took photos with his phone.
Original Lee
@Chet Murthy: This guy needed the info for his kids’ health insurance, so if he gets dinged for making copies, that will just add insult to injury. I will pass on the info about getting duplicate documentation.
danielx
@Adam L Silverman:
O rlly? Tell us more…
Chris
@Chet Murthy:
Every time I hear about shit like this, I’m reminded of that scene in Hunt For Red October where the Russian captain and his second-in-command are discussing what they’ll do when they get to America. The point comes up that the American government lets you drive state to state however you wish, “no papers.” And it seems like an amazing symbol of the nation’s freedom, from the Soviets’ point of view.
Twenty five years later…
jl
@Omnes Omnibus: I only take offense easily when it’s lawyers, or I think it is a lawyer. You are a lawyer so I took offense that you assumed I took offense, and I am already offended at whatever your reaction to that will be. I am pre-offended.
@dww44: NPR irritates me in so many ways I try to avoid. My folks are addicted to it, so have to endure its noise when visiting certain ancestral stomping grounds. I didn’t know NPR played stuff produced by other outfits. A lot of it is ‘not even wrong’ territory. A lot of it is the Tom Friedman school of economics.
Edit: I’ve mentioned this before, but I don’t even like how NPR sounds. It has the weird over produced precious sound quality to it that makes me want to gag. It’s like some corporate media outlets where people spend more time practicing the sound than understanding what they are saying.
efgoldman
@Omnes Omnibus:
Nor did i ever say I was.
I’m just not sure how jl got there from my memories of 40+ year old Milton Friedman columns.
Barbara
@Chet Murthy: In an emergency preparedness situation, the only ethical justification for price gouging would be to prevent hoarding of scarce goods by people who can afford to buy more than they need. Of course, you could limit the number of items you are willing to sell to each consumer as well. Given the transient nature of the situation, it seems obvious that raising prices will not result in additional goods being shipped to the highest demand location. Vendors raise their prices in this instance precisely because they know that won’t happen, unlike under normal conditions. You can’t go to Amazon for flashlights when you need them NOW and the governor just announced a mandatory evacuation that makes timely delivery problematic. Economists have a very annoying habit of using normative terms (“should”) when describing behavior consistent with maximizing profits. You CAN maximize profits by price gouging during emergencies. What you SHOULD do can be influenced by factors that have nothing to do with profit and loss.
Chet Murthy
@Chris: Oh lordy. I remember 9th grade Am. Hist. with Mr. Witherspoon. He taught us that an important difference between America and those countries in Europe, was that in America, you didn’t have to show your papers as you went from place to place in our country. That that was part of what “freedom” was about.
Indeed, “Twenty-five years later”. Sigh.
Another Scott
@divF: :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@Villago Delenda Est: I do not disagree with your analysis. Unfortunately things are, as I’ve consistently said, going to get worse before they get better. Our immigration laws, regulations, their enforcement, and their interpretations in the courts have been in long need of repair. The first bill to deal with what we now call Dreamers was submitted in Congress in 2002. Getting this stuff right under normal conditions, without a President who is clearly not all that interested in making things better, who has surrounded himself with those who definitely want to make it worse (Miller, Sessions, Bannon, Kobach, etc), congressional GOP majorities that are dysfunctional, divided on the topic, and unable to govern if you spotted them 60 votes in the Senate, would be very, very difficult. Right now it is going to be next to impossible.
Given this reality better to be safe than sorry makes perfect sense. Those of us who realize that reminding those that need to take it to heart, not out of malice, but out of concern, is one of the little things we can all do to make sure that these injustices get minimized. Being prepared to put our own bodies in the way should an attempt at selective registrations (say for Muslim Americans) by also declaring ourselves Muslim so as to make the registrations pointlessly inaccurate or be detained in order to make the point of the roundups pointless should indiscriminate mass round ups be attempted that capture citizen, legal resident, and undocumented alike is another.
sm*t cl*de
@Gin & Tonic:
It is indeed the Australian Labor Party. Australians cannot spell, despite our best efforts to educate them.
Mike J
click on the map to see scale.
Adam L Silverman
@Chet Murthy: It is technically supposed to be some sort of infraction to copy your passport or drivers license. So the same for a certificate of naturalization wouldn’t surprise me at all. Whatever the documentation is, naturalized citizens, especially those that aren’t lily white, should get them and carry them at all times. Everywhere. Just to be safe.
Achrachno
@efgoldman: They have no value because they can’t be sold, so price can’t be determined. People will only have value when we legalize the buying and selling of them. See?
Adam L Silverman
@danielx: Here you go:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pentagon-to-open-major-200m-intelligence-centre-in-britain-a6942856.html
http://www.fresnobee.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/political-notebook/article115517123.html
This one is especially galling as he’s trying to take hostages. It also shows he doesn’t understand how Intel Community personnel are recruited and/or deployed. Including in overseas postings. Excerpt below, much more at the link:
https://www.stripes.com/news/dod-civilians-drawn-into-fight-over-planned-uk-intel-base-1.417123
Another Scott
@Adam L Silverman: A colleague at work told me he was threatened with all sorts of nasty punishments after his dog chewed up his passport and he had to get a new one…
Cheers,
Scott.
jl
@efgoldman: I thought you referred to being in law school. And you are so prickly cynical and gruff. Oh wait, so many of those here. Maybe I got you confused with someone else.
OK, your not an lawyer, and clearly not an economist. Looks like you are a normal respectable person. I apologize.
O. Felix Culpa
@jl:
Well, you were right about efg not being a lawyer or an economist. Shoulda quit while you were ahead.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: However, that dog can now get into the US through any port of entry just by rolling over for a belly rub.
danielx
@jl:
An easy mistake around these parts.
Another Scott
@Adam L Silverman: :-) . He did eventually get his new passport, without serving prison time or paying a huge fine. (IIRC, the damage was only one corner.)
‘Night all.
Stay safe.
Cheers,
Scott.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Nunes hasn’t tried to get some stuff built in Tulare? Maybe he knows that would spark a mutiny.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@dww44:
Personally, I can’t stand his faux-casual, hipster delivery.
Omnes Omnibus
@O. Felix Culpa: Shit, any substantive comments that I made are now lost in the fight over who is an economist. I will just shit up now.
Steve in the ATL
@jl: in your defense, efgoldman is smart, wise, and knowledgeable on many subjects, including but not limited to the law, so it is an easy mistake to make. Of course, those same attributes prove that he is not an economist.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: I only know about the dust up over the new DIA facility because I sort of work within that world.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Original Lee: It’s illegal to make a copy of your naturalization certificate, a US Passport is proof of citizenship.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: where’s your personal troll tonight? Hopefully getting therapy for his persecution complex.
ETA: also, you’re a lawyer and therefore an asshole. Isn’t that the model we are using here now?
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: No idea. And I am off to bed.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: I’ve to both the wife(naturalized) and kid(US born) to get and always carry a passport card. Making a copy of the citizenship certificate is illegal.
Ruckus
@different-church-lady:
Given who the current president is I think the answer is rather self evident.
Just in case…..
Really fucking dumb.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: More I learn about Nunes, I think more likely you will read someday soon that some Congressperson is sure that some no longer economically viable cattle ranches in Tulare county are perfect places for some very expensive SIGINT facilities. Hey, maybe should all move there. It’s close to several national parks and a very suspicious and commie major metropolitan area that needs be watched closely. It’s served by several Amtrak and Greyhound runs every day!
O. Felix Culpa
@Omnes Omnibus: Were there substantive comments? I don’t do substantive at this time of night.//
More seriously, I agree with your observation in #100 that a fundamental flaw in microeconomic theory is the assumption that people act in rational self-interest. And that they have full information upon which to make decisions. That was my problem with the Chicago crowd when I was in grad school (Milton Friedman heyday). I think behavioral economics seeks to address some of these flaws, but I have a superficial understanding of that field at best.
james parente
@Adam L Silverman: This sounds frighteningly like “Free people of Color” had to keep their papers with them at all times. Lest they be kidnapped and “sold down the river” to the cane fields or the new cotton lands.
Steve in the ATL
@jl: I periodically think bad thoughts about the morons who keep returning him to congress, but then I remember that my district just elected Karen fucking Handel after years of electing Tom fucking Price without a serious challenger. FML.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Chet Murthy:
Hmmm, forty for me; get off my lawn.
Ruckus
@Jeffro:
Those economists and especially the MBAs are making all their decisions based upon the supply side. Because that’s the side that pays them. All of their rational is based upon making money from supply. Limited supply, raise prices, unlimited supply, make less stuff. We as consumers on the other hand make decisions based upon demand (and supply of currency), do we have to have something now, or do we desire something now.
Original Lee
@?BillinGlendaleCA: I only got this story at one remove, so I don’t know why the insurance company wouldn’t accept his passport. I had a similar thing happen when I tried to get a driver’s license in the new state I had just moved to. Nobody at the MVA would accept my passport as valid ID, so I had to go home and get my notarized duplicate birth certificate out of the fireproof strongbox. Sometimes you just can’t argue with a bureaucrat and win.
Ruckus
@Adam L Silverman:
You do understand that MBA stands for Must Be Asshole, don’t you?
If you understand that the entire training regime is perfecting being smarmy assholes with all humanity removed then the concept of an MBA makes perfect sense.
Amir Khalid
@Chris:
The character Marko Ramius was a Soviet, but not a Russian; he was actually Lithuanian. As I remember, Ramius’ dissatisfaction with Russian rule was one of his reasons for defecting.
frosty
@SiubhanDuinne: That was the most clever and awesome end to a series I ever saw. Would that I could wake up next to Suzanne Pleshette after dreaming about Larry Darrell and Darryl.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@El Caganer:
Ha! “But Nunes, old boy, how did you discover that Obama was really a secret kenyan-born radical muslim all along, Hillary was committing treason, and Putin had our best interests at heart?”
Amir Khalid
@Ruckus:
It has always seemed to me that an MBA holder without practical management experience holds what is essentially a degree in nothing.
O. Felix Culpa
@Amir Khalid: As an MBA holder (don’t tell anyone), the course provides some useful analytical tools, but it does not teach how to function as a manager.
Thru the Looking Glass...
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I can answer that for you…
Badly…
Some outcomes may be preferable to others, but none of them are good…
Amir Khalid
@O. Felix Culpa:
I would have thought that knowing how to function as a manager was fundamental to mastery of business administration.
Thru the Looking Glass...
@Adam L Silverman:
Of that, I had no doubt whatsoever…
fuckwit
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Badly.
O. Felix Culpa
@Amir Khalid: Alas, you would have thought wrong. You would learn genuinely useful concepts in finance, accounting, and even marketing, but so much of real management relates to the “soft” skills needed for working with people, who tend to be a messy lot. Plus they don’t tell you the secret handshake which helps some people advance in corporations while others don’t. Being a white male who golfs seems to play a role though. They don’t teach you that in business school either.
fuckwit
@Adam L Silverman: In AA English as well: BUY YO OWN DAMN FRIES!
https://youtube.com/watch?v=DgYIBG0fYq4
Ruckus
@Amir Khalid:
Silly man. Managing people is for the lessor beings. Managing profit, now that’s the basis of an MBA.
frosty
@Adam L Silverman: I have two naturalized sons and IIRC it is either illegal to copy a naturalization cert or it has no legal standing. Hope I’m wrong. And you’re telling me a passport or passport card won’t protect them, even though they need the cert to get it? WTF?
Do I need my state certified and sealed photostat of my NY birth cert all the time now? Can we just deport ICE now? Maybe to Greenland?
Villago Delenda Est
@Adam L Silverman: Oh, I’m in complete agreement with you on the precautionary nature of it. It shames me that it is necessary. We ARE better than this…but we’re better than all those assholes you named who are striving to turn this into at a minimum an authoritarian state. Most native born Americans could not pass these tests that the naturalized are asked to jump through, I might add.
Ruckus
@Villago Delenda Est:
If you were born here and therefore have no expectation of needing anything more and carrying anything more than a DL and for some unknown reason get on the wrong side of some asshole cop or CBP/ICE asshole how do you prove that you are a citizen? Papers please indeed.
Ruckus
@frosty:
What do you have against Greenland?
I like the concept but the location needs, first to be far worse, second uninhabited so they can’t do to anyone else what they are doing here. Possibly a mission to the sun?
J R in WV
@jl:
NPR doesn’t “play” stuff they don’t produce. You are listening to a radio station that pays NPR for a subscription to allow them to play specific NPR shows. They also have subscriptions to other producers like the Philly station that produces Fresh Air, the Terry Gross interview show, Minnesota Public which (I think now used to ) produce Garrison Keilor’s show, Marketplace, etc, etc.
I don’t think NPR even provides a 24-hour feed, just like CBS or NBC stations, public radio and TV stations have to run things besides NPR and PBS.
Jay S
@Barbara:
To put this in terms even economists should be able to understand, the consumer response to price gouging includes the substantial risk of physical violence up to and including murder for life sustaining goods. Thus
there are real world profit and loss calculations.
Mike G
@Adam L Silverman:
Gee, I can’t think of any reason to be concerned that the Chair of the House Intelligence Committee was having secret communications with people corrupted by the Russians. No concern at all.
Ruckus
@Mike G:
There’s nothing to see here. Believe me. Just because I’m digging a hole 6 ft long by 3 ft wide and 6 ft deep, there’s nothing to see here. Please move the fuck along so I don’t have to dig another hole.
This moment in republican politics has been brought to you by the fine folks at Jones Picks and Shovels, sold at fine hardware store all over the country.
sm*t cl*de
@Adam L Silverman:
A Portuguese autonomous region in mid-Atlantic does not strike me as the obvious place to re-centralise a buttload of TSC facilites, but then I am not trying to cash in on family properties so what do I know?
How would this hypothetical base be connected to both sides of the Atlantic? Satellite? New dedicated cables?
Aussie Sheila
@sm*t cl*de:
Unfortunately the Australian Labor Party adopted that spelling in imitation of the US spelling of the word ‘labour’.
That was at a time (late 19thC), when the US was understood to be more ‘progressive’ than the UK, which at the time held much more political, economic and cultural control of the antipodes than it does today, much to the chagrin of the largely Irish Australian working class of the time who preferred the US spelling of the word.
No-one today gives a flying $&@k about the spelling, however it remains an irritant to those of us who understand that the old UK ties have been dead and buried since the UK entry into the Common Market in the 1960s and of course, the fall of Singapore in early WW2.
In the meantime, the US has interfered might
lily in our domestic political arrangements in the past (Cold War period), and unfortunately, has dragged this country into a series of foreign military adventures that are both numberless and shameless for a self respecting reasonably respectable liberal and almost social democratic polity.
But there you go I guess.
NJDave
@Adam L Silverman: As a long-ago awarded MBA, I have to disagree. The problem isn’t the theories, which are grounded in some evidence. It’s their elevation to religious doctrine. There’s little of the scientist’s caution about assumptions. And yes, how it’s taught is a big, big problem. The maxim that a corporation’s main duty is to increase the wealth of it’s owners is a useful simplification that fails both economically and morally in the real world. But I’m certain that most students only hear and remember the “increase the wealth” part.