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You are here: Home / Politics / Trumpery / Dolt 45 / Open Thread: Criminally Stupid, Too

Open Thread: Criminally Stupid, Too

by Anne Laurie|  September 18, 20172:09 pm| 242 Comments

This post is in: Dolt 45, Election 2016, Open Threads, Republican Venality, Russiagate, Trump Crime Cartel, Assholes, Nobody could have predicted

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DISSENT INSIDE TRUMP LEGAL TEAM: Ty Cobb complained that McGahn is withholding documents & has a spy on Cobb's team. https://t.co/sg1u1Gwp0I

— Kenneth P. Vogel (@kenvogel) September 18, 2017

President Trump’s legal team is wrestling with how much to cooperate with the special counsel looking into Russian election interference, an internal debate that led to an angry confrontation last week between two White House lawyers and that could shape the course of the investigation…

The debate in Mr. Trump’s West Wing has pitted Donald F. McGahn II, the White House counsel, against Ty Cobb, a lawyer brought in to manage the response to the investigation. Mr. Cobb has argued for turning over as many of the emails and documents requested by the special counsel as possible in hopes of quickly ending the investigation — or at least its focus on Mr. Trump…

The friction escalated in recent days after Mr. Cobb was overheard by a reporter for The New York Times discussing the dispute during a lunchtime conversation at a popular Washington steakhouse. Mr. Cobb was heard talking about a White House lawyer he deemed “a McGahn spy” and saying Mr. McGahn had “a couple documents locked in a safe” that he seemed to suggest he wanted access to. He also mentioned a colleague whom he blamed for “some of these earlier leaks,” and who he said “tried to push Jared out,” meaning Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law and senior adviser, who has been a previous source of dispute for the legal team.

After The Times contacted the White House about the situation, Mr. McGahn privately erupted at Mr. Cobb, according to people informed about the confrontation who asked not to be named describing internal matters. John F. Kelly, the White House chief of staff, sharply reprimanded Mr. Cobb for his indiscretion, the people said…

Mr. Trump’s legal team has been a caldron of rivalry and intrigue since the beginning. His first private lawyer, Marc E. Kasowitz, grew alienated from the White House in part over friction with Mr. Kushner. The lawyer was unhappy that Mr. Kushner was talking with his father-in-law about the investigation without involving the legal team.

Mr. Kasowitz was eventually pushed to the side, and Mr. Trump elevated John Dowd, a Washington lawyer with extensive experience in high-profile political cases, to take the lead as his personal lawyer. At the same time, Mr. Trump decided he needed someone inside the White House to manage the official response since Mr. McGahn, whose professional experience is mostly in election law, already handles a vast array of issues from executive orders to judicial appointments.

Mr. McGahn’s first choices turned down the job, in part out of concern that Mr. Trump would not follow legal advice…

Here's a photo of Ty Cobb & John Dowd casually & loudly discussing details of Russia investigation at @BLTSteakDC while I sat at next table. pic.twitter.com/RfX9JLJ0Te

— Kenneth P. Vogel (@kenvogel) September 18, 2017

This conversation was OUTSIDE. On the street. It discussed documents locked in a WH safe. But, you know, @HillaryClinton sent emails. https://t.co/k2xsKa65uC

— Ronald Klain (@RonaldKlain) September 18, 2017

Be honest. The best, best, best thing abt this Ty Cobb blabbing at BLT Steak is more NYT reporters are gonna get to expense fancy lunches.

— emptywheel (@emptywheel) September 18, 2017

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Reader Interactions

242Comments

  1. 1.

    dr. bloor

    September 18, 2017 at 2:13 pm

    So this post is a little awkward.

  2. 2.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 2:14 pm

    emptywheel @emptywheel

    Be honest. The best, best, best thing abt this Ty Cobb blabbing at BLT Steak is more NYT reporters are gonna get to expense fancy lunches.

    Oh, like they need an excuse for that?

  3. 3.

    Amaranthine RBG

    September 18, 2017 at 2:14 pm

    @dr. bloor:

    But have you heard that a couple of Trump’s lawyers were talking about stuff outside at a restaurant?

  4. 4.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 18, 2017 at 2:17 pm

    AZ gov calls for Senate to pass Graham-Cassidy, MSNBC framing this as giving McCain permission to abandon all his “regular order” rhetoric and hold hands with Lindsay once again

  5. 5.

    Corner Stone

    September 18, 2017 at 2:17 pm

    It was the Trump lawyer, at the Steak House, with the Perrier water bottle!

  6. 6.

    Brachiator

    September 18, 2017 at 2:22 pm

    Did Ty Cobb order a salad?

  7. 7.

    Yutsano

    September 18, 2017 at 2:26 pm

    Mr. Trump elevated John Dowd, a Washington lawyer with extensive experience in high-profile political cases, to take the lead as his personal lawyer.

    John Dowd must be ready for retirement then. Hard to believe he’ll get hired in town after this.

  8. 8.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 2:27 pm

    Now, I know AL puts up scheduled posts sometimes, but this is the first time I can remember where there’s evidence that Cole has visited the blog and she hasn’t!

  9. 9.

    SiubhanDuinne

    September 18, 2017 at 2:29 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Did Ty Cobb order a salad?

    Saw what you did there, I did.

  10. 10.

    Yutsano

    September 18, 2017 at 2:29 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: As this is her normal sleep schedule time, its fair to guess this was a timed post.

    And we already know Cole doesn’t read his own blog so…

  11. 11.

    Amaranthine RBG

    September 18, 2017 at 2:32 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Who was it, Cobb or Ruth that supposedly ate 14 hot dogs before a game and later explained his poor performance by noting that “The 14th hot dog will get you every time.”

  12. 12.

    SiubhanDuinne

    September 18, 2017 at 2:33 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    In all fairness, she has mentioned a couple of times that she’ll be scarce around these parts for the next few days, as she has an old friend visiting from out of state.

    Anne Laurie is so reliable, I’m more than willing to cut her a goodly amount of slack this week. (But the thing about Cole is legit funny.)

  13. 13.

    rikyrah

    September 18, 2017 at 2:33 pm

    As Russia scandal moves forward, Team Mueller isn’t done growing
    09/18/17 11:30 AM
    By Steve Benen

    It might’ve been easy to miss this Politico piece – it was published around midnight on Friday evening – but for those following the Trump-Russia scandal closely, the piece was chock full of interesting news. Let’s start with the 16th lawyers to join the Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s legal team.

    An attorney working on the Justice Department’s highest-profile money-laundering case recently transferred off that assignment in order to join the staff of the special prosecutor investigating the Trump campaign’s potential ties to Russia, POLITICO has learned.

    Attorney Kyle Freeny was among the prosecutors on hand Friday as Jason Maloni, a spokesman for former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, testified before a grand jury at federal court in Washington.

    Freeny’s background in examining potential money-laundering is significant given the money-laundering questions surrounding this controversy. See this TRMS segment from mid-August, for example.

    ………………………

    The same Politico piece also noted that the “Wolf of Wall Street” case is a product of the Justice Department’s Kleptocracy Asset Recovery Initiative, “an effort to pursue the proceeds of foreign corruption and return such monies to the public in the affected countries.” This is the same initiative that’s investigating Ukrainian officials, including former President Viktor Yanukovych – who was a benefactor of Paul Manafort, Donald Trump’s former campaign chairman.

  14. 14.

    woodrowfan

    September 18, 2017 at 2:35 pm

    Pete Rose breaks Ty Cobb’s career hits record. Dowd destroys Rose’s career. later has lunch with TY COBB!!!! LINK THE DOTS SHEEPLE!!!!!!!

  15. 15.

    zhena gogolia

    September 18, 2017 at 2:36 pm

    @rikyrah:

    I am losing all hope in the Mueller investigation. Trump gets more entrenched and more normalized with every passing day. They could come out with a report that he actually did shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, and the MSM and Congress would just shrug. We the people are enraged and despairing, but we have no power whatsoever.

  16. 16.

    germy

    September 18, 2017 at 2:37 pm

    #Emmys did not include Frank Vincent, Dick Gregory, Harry Dean Stanton, or Charlie Murphy but don't fret, they made room for Roger Ailes! pic.twitter.com/0rb2EDeT2N— Yashar Ali ? (@yashar) September 18, 2017

  17. 17.

    Bess

    September 18, 2017 at 2:38 pm

    But how rough is Cobb?

  18. 18.

    germy

    September 18, 2017 at 2:41 pm

    @zhena gogolia: Don’t lose hope. If there was no hope, people like Cobb wouldn’t be so agitated.

  19. 19.

    Kay

    September 18, 2017 at 2:41 pm

    The best reason to call and oppose the gutting of Obamacare is they can’t do Trump”s huge tax cut for the rich program without cutting healthcare to poor and middle class people and you really don’t want Trump’s tax cuts, since they’ll mean further cuts to health care for poor and middle class people.

    It’s a twofer. They can’t pull off the big heist unless they succeed in this smaller robbery.

  20. 20.

    Peale

    September 18, 2017 at 2:42 pm

    It looks like someone lunching with Wilfred Brimley.

  21. 21.

    p.a.

    September 18, 2017 at 2:43 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: could Cole be a bot? stock photo of rosie in previous post?

  22. 22.

    Roger Moore

    September 18, 2017 at 2:44 pm

    @woodrowfan:
    Where would you like your internet delivered?

  23. 23.

    efgoldman

    September 18, 2017 at 2:44 pm

    @zhena gogolia:

    I am losing all hope in the Mueller investigation.

    Stop it, or I’ll go all Omnes Omnibus on your ass.

    Watergate took two fucking years, and it was much less complicated.

  24. 24.

    Kay

    September 18, 2017 at 2:45 pm

    @zhena gogolia:

    I think it will be disappointing because it will show Trump is corrupt and sleazy and compromised but not overtly coordinating with Putin. Putin really didn’t need to coordinate with him. It would be pretty dumb to do so, considering what big mouths the Trumpsters have and Putin could get everything he needed w/out coordination. I mean, they were paying Facebook in rubles. It’s not like it was hard.

    Corrupt and sleazy and compromised is fine in a President. Now. So that’ll be the end of that.

  25. 25.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 2:46 pm

    @Kay:

    They can’t pull off the big heist unless they succeed in this smaller robbery.

    Actually, while it makes it much harder to commit the big score, they can do it without the ACA gutting.

    10 year sunset provision.

    What they used to pass the Bush Tax cuts under reconciliation.

    So, if we win this battle, that’s gonna be the next one.

  26. 26.

    Kay

    September 18, 2017 at 2:49 pm

    @zhena gogolia:

    Why, specifically, would Putin need to coordinate with Trump or Kushner? How does that benefit him? He can own them without owing them anything at all or giving them access to that kind of leverage over him. Letting them in on it is a liability.

  27. 27.

    Corner Stone

    September 18, 2017 at 2:50 pm

    @Kay:

    I think it will be disappointing because it will show Trump is corrupt and sleazy and compromised but not overtly coordinating with Putin.

    I am still holding on to the idea it will determine that every single person in the Trump admin and orbit is completely corrupt, complicit and guilty of some form of RICO and/or collusion.
    The part I am less hopeful about is what would happen next.

  28. 28.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 2:52 pm

    @Kay:

    Why, specifically, would Putin need to coordinate with Trump or Kushner? How does that benefit him? He can own them without owing them anything at all or giving them access to that kind of leverage over him.

    Well, there is that meeting in the White House with Russian agents and his private meeting with Putin overseas.

    Maybe he just wants to remind Trump he knows where the bodies are buried and where the toilets were not flushed.

  29. 29.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 2:52 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    The part I am less hopeful about is what would happen next.

    Yep.

    Provided that Mueller catches that car, now what?

  30. 30.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 2:54 pm

    @Kay: but doesn’t the money freed up by cutting healthcare become irrelevant to the tax cut calculation after the reconciliation deadline anyway?

    @TenguPhule: one step at a time. That would be what we call a good problem to have.

  31. 31.

    SFAW

    September 18, 2017 at 2:55 pm

    Maybe I’m starting to channel Alex Jones, but I’m wondering if that lunch conversation was scripted to be that way, although I can’t really game out what benefit they would derive from putting on a show like that. And the allegation that McGahn “erupted” would seem to override my wondering.

    I guess the alternative is that they — or at least, Cobb — really are/is as fucking stupid as their/his boss.

    I think I’ll go with Option B

  32. 32.

    rikyrah

    September 18, 2017 at 2:56 pm

    @zhena gogolia:

    I am losing all hope in the Mueller investigation.

    I am not. The team that he’s assembled didn’t leave their 7 figure salaries just to have fun. Mueller seems to be getting his ducks in a row.

  33. 33.

    rikyrah

    September 18, 2017 at 2:57 pm

    @Kay:

    It’s a twofer. They can’t pull off the big heist unless they succeed in this smaller robbery.

    tis true. And, we knew this, which is why we knew they would be back.

  34. 34.

    Timurid

    September 18, 2017 at 2:58 pm

    @zhena gogolia:

    After they pardoned Trump for Charlottesville, what’s next? They’ve already accepted pure evil. Why would they condemn him for mere corruption?

  35. 35.

    Humdog

    September 18, 2017 at 2:58 pm

    @efgoldman: .

  36. 36.

    SFAW

    September 18, 2017 at 3:01 pm

    @zhena gogolia:

    I am losing all hope in the Mueller investigation.

    You’re starting to sound like me on bad days.

    I think Mueller is taking his time — as in, not rushing things for the sake of showing “progris” — and making sure all the Ts are dotted and the Is crossed. As more than one has said: what happens afterward is anyone’s guess, but I’m thinking Mueller will probably have a pretty strong case.

    So cheer up, OK? Please?

  37. 37.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 3:01 pm

    BLT Steak House. Stupid name.

    What next, PB&J Seafood Grotto?

  38. 38.

    eclare

    September 18, 2017 at 3:01 pm

    @rikyrah: Your point reassures me. Thank you.

  39. 39.

    rikyrah

    September 18, 2017 at 3:03 pm

    @Kay:

    I think it will be disappointing because it will show Trump is corrupt and sleazy and compromised but not overtly coordinating with Putin.

    Well, we disagree on this, Kay. The problem with a Kleptocracy like Russia is that ALL roads, literally lead to Putin.
    ALL of them. There is no six degrees of separation here. Every phucking person involved here, has a line that goes to Putin. Whether money laundering, or election interference…you get the original person, MAYBE someone else, and THEN Putin. Sometimes it just goes middle man then Putin.

    Mueller is connecting the dots. He’s trying to get as much of the spider web as possible. He’s following the money, which, always, always, tells the truth.

  40. 40.

    Humdog

    September 18, 2017 at 3:04 pm

    @efgoldman:
    “Stop it, or I’ll go all Omnes Omnibus on your ass.”
    That sounds ominous!

  41. 41.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 3:05 pm

    And St Louis cops seem to be squirting gasoline onto the fire.

    Chanting “whose streets, our streets!”, deliberately trapping and arresting peaceful protesters and media and otherwise not trying to deescalate the situation.

    I don’t see anything good coming from this.

  42. 42.

    El Caganer

    September 18, 2017 at 3:07 pm

    @Kay: Yeah, I’ve felt that Trump was too stupid and unstable to be a party to any sort of sophisticated espionage/treason activity. Now, money laundering, that should be a slam dunk.

  43. 43.

    geg6

    September 18, 2017 at 3:07 pm

    @zhena gogolia:

    Jesus. You wouldn’t have lived through Watergate then, for sure. Seems to me that Mueller’s team is moving at lightning speed comparatively.

  44. 44.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 3:07 pm

    @zhena gogolia

    What efgoldman said.

    Ya want it done right or ya want it done Tuesday? Takes time to build an airtight case.

    I subscribe to the “no news is good news” school when it comes to special counsel investigations of this sort.

  45. 45.

    rikyrah

    September 18, 2017 at 3:08 pm

    @eclare:

    @rikyrah: Your point reassures me. Thank you.

    I have to take this POV. He hired these people for a reason. I can’t believe, if you are as good as people say that they are…that they would do this for fun.

    Also, I take comfort from the Urban Poet, Omar Little of The Wire..

    ” Lesson here, Babe. You come at the King….you best not miss.”

    Bobby Three Sticks knows that he has one chance to strike. He’s not moving until he has all his ducks in a row.

    I am also comforted that we don’t ever find out stuff about Mueller’s team – until HE wants it to be known.

  46. 46.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 3:10 pm

    @NotMax: heh, glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed that!

  47. 47.

    SFAW

    September 18, 2017 at 3:10 pm

    @NotMax:

    What next, PB&J Seafood Grotto?

    Listen, smartass, have you ever tried it? If not, then quit your whining (or whatever that was).

    Just kidding. It wouldn’t be as bad as the “Tire Rims and Anthrax Cafe,” but …

  48. 48.

    Timurid

    September 18, 2017 at 3:11 pm

    @SFAW: The recent news on Mueller is both good and bad. The continuing expansion of the team and the multiple new branches of the investigation suggest a much more serious outcome for Trump when the process is complete. It’s the when that’s the killer. The more complex the investigation grows, the longer it will take. A resolution is likely many months and possibly multiple years away. In that time Trump will do incalculable damage. Even a flipped House in 2018 might not be too much of an impediment. He’s already done terrible harm with very little help from Congress or the courts. And, as noted above, when Mueller finally drops the hammer in April 2019 or whenever, the process of normalization and consolidation will be much more advanced.

    But there’s just no other choice. They’re only going to get one shot at this, and the people who actually have the power to act on the results will be desperately searching for the one un-dotted “i” that will give them an excuse not to do their duty.

  49. 49.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 3:12 pm

    @El Caganer:

    Yeah, I’ve felt that Trump was too stupid and unstable to be a party to any sort of sophisticated espionage/treason activity.

    PUTIN REPRESENTATIVE: hey Donny, wanna be president? Just say the word.
    TRUMP: yes. Thanks.

  50. 50.

    Matt McIrvin

    September 18, 2017 at 3:13 pm

    @zhena gogolia: It can seem as if nothing is happening, because, unlike the White House, Mueller’s team is extremely disciplined and not leaking at all. So all we have are these fragmentary accounts that come from some of their targets leaking, or from external observations of their behavior. The result is that they don’t get a lot of media coverage above the fold. I don’t think they want it, at this point.

    I suspect the attention paid to the investigation is going to increase very rapidly once indictments start appearing. And there will be indictments, unless Trump just shuts them down.

  51. 51.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 3:14 pm

    @Timurid:

    and the people who actually have the power to act on the results will be desperately searching for the one un-dotted “i” that will give them an excuse not to do their duty.

    Like they really need excuses at this point?

    We have a problem when only one side decides to follow the rules.

    IOIYAR is going to have to be addressed and dealt with. Permanently.

  52. 52.

    geg6

    September 18, 2017 at 3:14 pm

    @rikyrah:

    I’m with you. All this despair and this investigation has barely gotten off the ground as such things go.

    Patience, grasshoppers.

  53. 53.

    Josie

    September 18, 2017 at 3:14 pm

    @rikyrah: I love that you quoted Omar. He was my favorite character in that whole series.

    ETA: I agree with you. I have faith in Mueller.

  54. 54.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:15 pm

    @Kay: Again, and hopefully it sticks this time: the Russian assets needed to coordinate with Americans for the social media micro-targeting portion of the Psychological Operations part of their active measures during the 2016 campaign. Without local knowledge, that could only be provided by Americans with actual experience with campaigning, social media, issues that resonate with Americans or could be made to, and elections what the Russians did would have been shooting blind. The combination of the money and the needed coordination is part of what Mueller and his team are focusing on.

  55. 55.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 3:15 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    And there will be indictments, unless Trump just shuts them down.

    To quote Adam Silverman: Penetration at all levels.

  56. 56.

    SFAW

    September 18, 2017 at 3:16 pm

    @Timurid:

    And, as noted above, when Mueller finally drops the hammer in April 2019 or whenever, the process of normalization and consolidation will be much more advanced.

    I don’t think the normalization thing will matter much, since by then we’ll have already nuked NK, and China did not respond as well as Lying Littledick “thought” they would. But outside of that …

  57. 57.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:18 pm

    @SFAW: It wasn’t. Both Dowd and Cobb are considered way down the food chain on working these types of cases. Essentially DC legal D-listers. They’re only in the jobs because every A, B, and C lister that McGahn recommended either said no or were unacceptable to the President. The former because, as it was widely reported, they were worried that 1) the President wouldn’t pay them/they’d get stiffed and 2) the President wouldn’t listen to them. The latter because they’d supported HRC or were considered to be prominently aligned with Democratic Party interests.

  58. 58.

    StudlyPantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn

    September 18, 2017 at 3:20 pm

    @Corner Stone: That better be a bottle of San Pellegrino. If I ever find out my lawyer orders that Perrier swill over the Pellegrino at a fancy restaurant, I’m firing his ass.

  59. 59.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 3:21 pm

    @TenguPhule: what does that have to do with trump shutting down an indictment?

  60. 60.

    SFAW

    September 18, 2017 at 3:21 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Yeah, intellectually, I know you’re right. But there’s always some part of me which says “Remember what happened the LAST time you got your hopes up?”

  61. 61.

    rikyrah

    September 18, 2017 at 3:22 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Kay: Again, and hopefully it sticks this time: the Russian assets needed to coordinate with Americans for the social media micro-targeting portion of the Psychological Operations part of their active measures during the 2016 campaign.

    And this ALWAYS..

    ALWAYS…

    Leads back to Kushner and The Mercers.

  62. 62.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 3:23 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Trump may not be the only one trying to quash indictments if the rot has spread as wide as some of us fear. All that Russian money and resources that went to Republican house and senate elections for instance.

  63. 63.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:23 pm

    @SFAW:
    1) Mueller and his team are following the money and the networks of people and organizations around the money to create a parallel criminal explanation that can be prosecuted. This is necessary so that they do not compromise the intel methods and sources in bringing and making their case. Basically, they’re privy to the raw and finished counterintelligence product on this stuff. They know exactly what has happened in a way that simply cannot be presented in open court without compromising our and our allies/partners counterintelligence capabilities.
    2) A report will be produced and submitted to Congress for their action.
    3) Prosecutions will be brought through the career prosecutors in the dedicated National Security section of the DOJ.
    4) Prosecutions will be brought in state court, specifically NY state.

  64. 64.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:23 pm

    @NotMax: Actually its BLT Prime. The Prime makes it about steak. I wish I was joking…

    This restaurant is actually in the Trump International Hotel in DC. So the lunch is itself both an emoluments clause and a White House staff ethics breach.

  65. 65.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 3:25 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Legal team-wise, heading fast into Nathan Thurm territory.

  66. 66.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 3:25 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: it makes it sound like a transformer that hides out as a sandwich.

  67. 67.

    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap

    September 18, 2017 at 3:27 pm

    @rikyrah: Mercers have a PAC specifically to go after Elizabeth Warren, saw it over at Rawstory I think.

  68. 68.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:27 pm

    @TenguPhule: They haven’t penetrated the career national security prosecutors at DOJ. Nor NY State AG Schneiderman’s office.

  69. 69.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 3:29 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    BLT Prime sounds more like the name of the head honcho of the evil alien empire in a lesser SF movie.

  70. 70.

    Corner Stone

    September 18, 2017 at 3:30 pm

    @StudlyPantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn:

    That better be a bottle of San Pellegrino.

    Ain’t nobody ordering that damn Mexican bottled water! It’s America First bottled Perrier or nothing!

  71. 71.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    September 18, 2017 at 3:30 pm

    I, for one, look forward to the SWAT raid to execute a search warrant for those “documents in a safe”.

  72. 72.

    Amir Khalid

    September 18, 2017 at 3:30 pm

    @zhena gogolia:
    I wasn’t really expecting anything from the Special Counsel investigation to drop during this calendar year. But the indications are that Mueller and his team aren’t just sitting on their thumbs. What’s already been made known is pretty damning. I expect what he comes up with will give the whole story, chapter and verse — everything the DoJ could need to secure convictions, and then some, against those who are to be prosecuted. It’s also my expectation that the weight of the evidence will make it hard for the DoJ (i.e. the Attorney-General) and Congress to refuse to act. But I also know that gathering that much evidence will take time.

    Some idle speculation on my part: PM Najib’s visit to DC last week may not have been all government-to-government business. I have a sneaking suspicion that at some point in their meeting, Malaysian Official One at least tried to ask Trump to get the FBI off his (Najib’s) back.

  73. 73.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:32 pm

    @rikyrah: Among others. And the thing that everyone either doesn’t realize or doesn’t talk about if they do, is that a number or our allies and partners have provided this counterintelligence to our counterintelligence folks. Those people are somewhere between very concerned to scared to death because they know an unreliable US with a revanchist, expansionist Putin led Russia is an existential threat to them (Latvia, Poland, Estonia, Ukraine, Finland, Sweden, etc). As long as they perceive that the US has a process in place and it is moving towards appropriate action to deal with this they will not do anything overt with the intel they have. If the process is stymied or forcibly broken down then they will leak like a sieve. And those leaks will be targeted and they will be a matter of national survival for them to force action in the US.

  74. 74.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:34 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Sandwichbots: marble rye out!

  75. 75.

    Shalimar

    September 18, 2017 at 3:35 pm

    @Brachiator: Vogel said on one of the MSNBC shows that Cobb ordered a Cobb salad. I did not detect any sarcasm, but that still can’t possibly be true.

  76. 76.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:35 pm

    @Shalimar: Cannibal.

  77. 77.

    Shalimar

    September 18, 2017 at 3:37 pm

    @Amaranthine RBG: That was Ruth. Most of the Cobb stories involve him punching or spiking someone.

  78. 78.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 3:38 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Vore than meets the eye.

  79. 79.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:40 pm

    @NotMax: Well played.

  80. 80.

    rikyrah

    September 18, 2017 at 3:42 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    @rikyrah: Among others. And the thing that everyone either doesn’t realize or doesn’t talk about if they do, is that a number or our allies and partners have provided this counterintelligence to our counterintelligence folks.

    I have long believed that it was the INTERNATIONAL IC that sent up the red flags to the CIA, which got the information to the FBI – who phucked it up.

    I don’t believe that our IC has been alone. I believe it’s been ‘all hands on deck’ to stop Vlad. I have believed that pretty much from the beginning, when it was just a few of us out here who thought that we were living in the middle of a John Grisham novel, as much as we didn’t want to believe it.

    But, as I’ve said before..

    NOT.ENOUGH.COINCIDENCES.IN.THE.WESTERN.WORLD.

  81. 81.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 3:43 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    If the process is stymied or forcibly broken down then they will leak like a sieve. And those leaks will be targeted and they will be a matter of national survival for them to force action in the US.

    So if they start leaking, that’s when we know its time to panic?

  82. 82.

    Amir Khalid

    September 18, 2017 at 3:44 pm

    @Shalimar:
    I consulted Wikipedia and was disappointed to learn that the baseball legend Ty Cobb and his similarly named relative have no connection to the salad’s origins.

  83. 83.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:45 pm

    @TenguPhule: They won’t start leaking until it is very clear that the potential accountability processes have broken down.

  84. 84.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 3:45 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Roast Beef in Disguise.

  85. 85.

    eclare

    September 18, 2017 at 3:46 pm

    @rikyrah: A man must have a code….

  86. 86.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 3:49 pm

    To efgoldman, my sympathies.

  87. 87.

    rikyrah

    September 18, 2017 at 3:50 pm

    @eclare:

    @rikyrah: A man must have a code….

    I have no photoshop skills whatsoever. But, if I did, I’d love to do one with Omar whistling ‘ Farmer and the dell’ to that stock footage of Mueller walking down the hallway.

    The Second one would be of ‘ Omar Coming!’, but change it to ” Mueller Coming!”

    LOL

  88. 88.

    tobie

    September 18, 2017 at 3:50 pm

    It looks like the CBO will not score the Graham/Cassidy proposed repeal of Obamacare. The only thing they’ll rule on is whether it fits reconciliation requirements. I’ve called my GOP Governor in a blue state. Anything else we should be doing?

  89. 89.

    Millard Filmore

    September 18, 2017 at 3:50 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    what does that have to do with trump shutting down an indictment?

    How does this indictment work anyway? Mueller collects the evidence, makes it airtight … then what? The FBI can recommend some action but cannot do it all. The FBI sends a report to Sessions? Obviously. Is the report made public? Any parts made public? A summary? A detailed list of indictable offenses? What do we out here get to see?

    Some things will come out, either by leaks from the FBI, the DOJ, or by some official reporting by the FBI. The reaction to this final report, public or private, by the Republican leadership is unknown. It can range from “Yeah, we’re the treason party. Get used to it.” on down to the more likely impeachment of Trump.

    Even in the worst case, where the “GOP” becomes “The Treason Party”, legal action will not stop there. My (our) hope is that one or more states, like New York, will be able to act on this research and do their own indictments. Every state Democratic Party will be able to sue the Republicans in state court for damages. Hopefully the damages and injunctions that can be obtained will cripple and bankrupt the GOP in every state where the judiciary has not been compromised. With a favorable combination of luck and skill, maybe the financial backers of this dumpster fire will be ruined as well.

    The Feds don’t have to do it all. But a lot depends on how much of the FBI work product we get to see.

    [EDIT] Adam says “2) A report will be produced and submitted to Congress for their action.” How detailed will the public version be?

  90. 90.

    eclare

    September 18, 2017 at 3:51 pm

    @rikyrah: Hahaha…everyone’s favorite character, Omar Little.

  91. 91.

    Yutsano

    September 18, 2017 at 3:54 pm

    @tobie: Wait…that will take a ruling of the Parliamentarian. My understanding is reconciliation bills require a CBO score in order to determine if there need to be sunset provisions. Not that it seems to matter here.

    I also haven’t heard anything about Yertle putting the bill on the floor yet.

  92. 92.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 18, 2017 at 3:54 pm

    @Humdog: Damn right.

    Also, as general comment, the fact that Mueller is being slow and deliberate reassures me. This kind of case is based on getting all contacts documented, put in context, and authenticated. This takes time. If Mueller were interested in providing cover for the GOP, he wouldn’t be assembling the staff that he is. He also would be looking wind it up quickly and provided closure. He isn’t.

  93. 93.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 3:55 pm

    Speaking or criminally, or stupid, or both, just heard that AZ gub Ducey is supporting Graham-Cassidy BS.
    Edit: so McCain says he may reluctantly support it even without regular order. So much for McCain’s big, stirring, speech during the last round.

    So good chance GOPers how have 49 votes.
    Last I heard only Collins, Murkowsky, Paul still hard ‘no’.

    Edit2: and looks like somebody giving the dope Heller a cookie if he supports it.

  94. 94.

    SectionH

    September 18, 2017 at 3:55 pm

    @NotMax: It’s a considerably better name than Wrench & Rodent.

  95. 95.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:55 pm

    @Millard Filmore: No, this doesn’t go through Sessions. Mueller reports to and is overseen by Deputy AG Rosenstein. Prosecutions will be handled by the career prosecutors within the dedicated National Security section at the DOJ. Counterintelligence investigations and prosecutions are about as walled off from political interference as possible. Especially with the AG recused.

  96. 96.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 3:56 pm

    @tobie:

    It looks like the CBO will not score the Graham/Cassidy proposed repeal of Obamacare. The only thing they’ll rule on is whether it fits reconciliation requirements.

    Wait, what?! In order to fit reconciliation requirements it has to be scored to see the financial impact of the bill.

  97. 97.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 3:57 pm

    @jl:

    Last I heard only Collins, Murkowsky, Paul still hard ‘no’.

    Collins is currently suspiciously quiet.

  98. 98.

    rikyrah

    September 18, 2017 at 3:57 pm

    @tobie:

    It looks like the CBO will not score the Graham/Cassidy proposed repeal of Obamacare.

    Why not?

  99. 99.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 3:58 pm

    @TenguPhule: McConnell can overrule the parliamentarian if he doesn’t like the ruling.

  100. 100.

    randy khan

    September 18, 2017 at 3:59 pm

    @NotMax:

    BLT Steak is kind of a goofy name, but the initials actually stand for Bistro Laurent Tourondel – there are a bunch of restaurants he started with “BLT” in their names.

  101. 101.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 3:59 pm

    @TenguPhule: People in Main need to call her and tell her that this bill is just as bad as the previous ones on the issues she said were bill killers. So if she votes yes she is either dumb as Heller or crooked.

  102. 102.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:00 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    McConnell can overrule the parliamentarian if he doesn’t like the ruling.

    But that’s Calvinball territory.

    That’s not even figleafing, that’s stark kilt flying right there.

  103. 103.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 18, 2017 at 4:00 pm

    @jl: Last I heard only Collins, Murkowsky, Paul still hard ‘no’.
    From what I’ve seen around the tubes, Murkowski isn’t that hard, and the CW (on twitter) is that Rand Paul will fold

    as to Meuller, IANAL but I’m persuaded by those who argue that he’s building a case for obstruction to show that the Comey firing, and trump’s subsequent confession to obstructing justice, was obstruction of justice. Do I expect Ryan to do anything about it? 0nly if the midterms look lethal to him, which based on the lack of outrage already, I don’t expect.

    I would bet a hundred dollars that Jared will be indicted. Not a thousand, not five hundred, but one hundred.

  104. 104.

    Mary G

    September 18, 2017 at 4:00 pm

    @rikyrah: I love all your posts to bits, but Mueller as Omar is the cherry on top. It cheered me right up to imagine Twitler leaving the Oval Office and going upstairs to watch Hannity and instead finding Omar there with the sawed-off.

    No, any snowflake right-wingers reading this, I do not approve of assassinating even this loser. Imagination, however, is healthy.

  105. 105.

    Millard Filmore

    September 18, 2017 at 4:01 pm

    @TenguPhule:

    So if they [foreign governments] start leaking, that’s when we know its time to panic?

    I will panic when our spooks start moving their families out of the USA.

  106. 106.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 4:01 pm

    Greener news.

    Bigger than any medieval castle, with its 12 giant white cooling towers gleaming in the sun, the Drax Power Station dominates the horizon for tens of miles across the flat lands of eastern England. For four decades, it has been one of the world’s largest coal power plants, often generating a tenth of the U.K.’s electricity. It has been the lodestar for the final phase of Britain’s 250-year-long love affair with coal – the fuel that built the country’s empire and industrialized the world.

    But no more.
    [snip]
    King Coal is, almost overnight, being banished from Britain.
    [snip]
    …Drax will live on, but only by burning biomass – mostly wood chips imported from the southern United States. Source

  107. 107.

    MCA1

    September 18, 2017 at 4:01 pm

    @Timurid: This x10. I have no doubt there’s plenty there, whether it be outright election collusion or just money laundering and an assortment of other financial crimes. I kind of think the latter is more likely – Putin didn’t need Trump people, specifically (most of whom, other than Manafort, didn’t know anything about running a campaign, anyway), even if he did need the assistance of American politicking pros of some sort to have an actual impact through his attempts at meddling. Trump himself was already hopelessly compromised, and Putin could simply send his cronies to go ensnare the rest of the group without actually engaging in coordinated activity.

    The problem is political, not legal, really. As you note, one problem is the continued normalization of Trump and his abhorrent behavior with time (the flow of corruption, emoluments, conflicts and deviance is just too overwhelming to process all of it). Another aspect, though, is that the longer this drags on, the longer the GOP has to work the refs and prepare the nothing to see here, not a big deal, witchhunt, Clinton was way worse bs they plan to regurgitate into the gaping MSM maw as soon as the full story is revealed. They’ve been busily pre-selling this story since January.

    I don’t want Mueller’s team to rush things unnecessarily. But it does seem that the longer the investigation process goes on, the less real world impact any given conclusion of that investigation is likely to have.

  108. 108.

    John Cole

    September 18, 2017 at 4:01 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: This is my fault, she had a scheduled post and I posted mine, then an hour later noticed her scheduled post was the same damned thing.

    As always, I am the asshole.

  109. 109.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:02 pm

    @Millard Filmore:

    I will panic when our spooks start moving their families out of the USA.

    But we’d never know until after the fact.

  110. 110.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 18, 2017 at 4:02 pm

    @rikyrah: @Mary G: The Second one would be of ‘ Omar Coming!’,

    Ha! I love Omar. And Proposition Joe. And the Bunk….. I’ve been meaning to restart The Wire.

  111. 111.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:02 pm

    @John Cole:

    As always, I am the asshole.

    Or you just don’t read your blog.

  112. 112.

    randy khan

    September 18, 2017 at 4:03 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    There are two BLT restaurants in DC; this was not the one in the hotel, but about 1/2 a mile away. The Times bureau is not near the Trump International Hotel – everything on that side of the street other than the hotel is a government building.

  113. 113.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 4:03 pm

    @Millard Filmore: You don’t need to know that information.

  114. 114.

    ArchTeryx

    September 18, 2017 at 4:03 pm

    Ain’t the Mueller investigation I am losing hope in. I’m losing hope that the raping of healthcare for the rest of us can be slowed down, let alone stopped. With even McCain making noises about voting for it, it’s a done deal.

  115. 115.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 4:03 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Last minute cave, or dumb move, or corrupt one, by Ducey may really mess up situation. McCain was kind of boxed in by his big, impassioned, oh so very principled, (now probably ‘inoperative’) speech on regular order, and repeated promises to defer to Ducey. Now Ducey’s thrown in the towel and said, yeah sure, let some people in my state die, what the hell. The Graham-Cassidy bill is dressed up with the GOP lie that it is moderate, so, what the hell.

  116. 116.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:04 pm

    @ArchTeryx:

    I’m losing hope that the raping of healthcare for the rest of us can be slowed down, let alone stopped. With even McCain making noises about voting for it, it’s a done deal.

    Don’t worry. The radioactive fallout will kill everyone first.

  117. 117.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 4:05 pm

    @randy khan: Okay. I have moved the push pin in the map.

  118. 118.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 4:05 pm

    ” As always, I am the asshole. ”

    Need that on the rotating header.

  119. 119.

    tobie

    September 18, 2017 at 4:06 pm

    @rikyrah: I don’t know why. I’m just reporting what Topher Spiro has said in his twitter feed. There will be no CBO score, no hearings, and no amendments.

    We wasted precious resources in terms of the energy on our side pushing for Medicare4All last week. This was unnecessary and it took our eye off the ball. We may pay a heavy price for this.

  120. 120.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 4:08 pm

    @Millard Filmore:

    Even in the worst case, where the “GOP” becomes “The Treason Party”…

    IMO this is the best case scenario.

  121. 121.

    Brachiator

    September 18, 2017 at 4:09 pm

    @eclare:

    A man must have a code…

    Area or zip?

  122. 122.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 4:09 pm

    I don’t see how there is enough in Graham-Cassidy that addresses Ducey’s supposed concerns about the last one for him to change his mind.

    That jerk Marshall may be vindicated yet: “GOP moderates always cave”, (In Congress and elsewhere).

    Only good thing about Graham-Cassidy is that it preserves so much of PPACA regulatory and financial infrastructure that isn’t really a repeal for quite a few years. And the fuse is long on the worst provisions, so can reverse if get Congress back.

    But after the cynically set, long, electorally well timed, fuses blow up enough of PPACA, last one after 2028 IIRC, we will be back in the bad old days.

  123. 123.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 4:09 pm

    Speaking (kind of) of steaks, color me leery.

    China has signed a multimillion-dollar deal to purchase lab-grown meat from Israel.

  124. 124.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 18, 2017 at 4:09 pm

    @jl: cCain was kind of boxed in by his big, impassioned, oh so very principled, (now probably ‘inoperative’) speech on regular order,

    Well, when McCain flip-flops I’m sure that all those pundits who sang his praises like a drunken Florence Jenkins will be scandalized by this bait-and-switch (in the I think unlikely event he sticks to his stance, I’ll eat my words).
    He could easily say he’ll vote for the bill after a CBO score and full hearings. I’ll be shocked if he does so.

  125. 125.

    efgoldman

    September 18, 2017 at 4:10 pm

    @Humdog: You rang?

  126. 126.

    ArchTeryx

    September 18, 2017 at 4:10 pm

    @tobie: I would think no CBO score means it would automatically fail the Byrd Rule and be ruled out of order for reconciliation. But since they’re absolutely determined to jam it through I don’t see any obstacle there, either. Pence overrules the Parlimentarian and they proceed to murdering anyone who needs healthcare and can’t pay 100% out of pocket for it,

  127. 127.

    schrodingers_cat

    September 18, 2017 at 4:11 pm

    All is lost, BJ commenter brigade is out in full force. Carry on guys.

  128. 128.

    MCA1

    September 18, 2017 at 4:11 pm

    @TenguPhule: Like that matters. Essentially no different from treating as fundamentally illegitimate any Supreme Court nominee put forth by a Democratic president.

  129. 129.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 4:11 pm

    @ArchTeryx: well, if they don’t do it in *checks watch* 12 days, it will have in fact been stopped.

  130. 130.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 18, 2017 at 4:12 pm

    @rikyrah: Dave Weigel‏Verified account @ daveweigel 25m25 minutes ago
    No CBO estimates of mass coverage loss means no newspaper headlines about how many people would lose coverage.

  131. 131.

    SFAW

    September 18, 2017 at 4:13 pm

    @John Cole:

    As always, I am the asshole.

    As Shakespeare or someone else once said, “He may be an asshole, but he’s OUR asshole.” Keep it up, Big Guy.

  132. 132.

    Yutsano

    September 18, 2017 at 4:13 pm

    @ArchTeryx: Fuck it. Let them blow it up. And make sure they OWN it.

  133. 133.

    Josie

    September 18, 2017 at 4:14 pm

    @John Cole: But the thing is, John, that a true asshole would not admit it.

  134. 134.

    J R in WV

    September 18, 2017 at 4:14 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    It sounds like Mueller has all the Grand Jury he needs for now, so indictments could be the product of his “project” with little interaction with the rest of the DoJ. IANAL, but I read extensively and am friends with lawyers (Yes, true, I confess!) none of whom I consult about B-J comments.

    In my hazy afternoon daydreams, the FBI/Secret Service go through the White House, arresting everyone but White House staff (the Butler and his direct reports, not the political staff) leaving only Donald Trump senior all alone to attempt to prevent his impeachment after everyone he knows has been indicted for espionage crimes against the US on behalf of Russia.

    Can he even operate the White House phones? I guess the WH staff person could help him with that… but would anyone take his calls? Well, of course V. V. Putin might, or not.

    It is a pretty picture, isn’t it? Using federal corrections buses to take everyone away to an Army base, with big tents on the far end of a closed runway. Hahahaha!

  135. 135.

    tobie

    September 18, 2017 at 4:14 pm

    @ArchTeryx: My understanding is that the CBO said they’ll determine whether the proposal fits the requirements for reconciliation but a full score determining what will happen to premiums, how many will lose insurance etc won’t come till much later. Whether you can really say the legislation meets the requirements of the Byrd rule without a full score is a good question, but as you note the GOP will find a way around this.

  136. 136.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 4:14 pm

    @SFAW:

    I think we are supposed to fill in ‘Exit, chased by a bear’ after that line by Cole.

  137. 137.

    catclub

    September 18, 2017 at 4:15 pm

    @SFAW:

    since by then we’ll have already nuked NK, and China did not respond as well as Lying Littledick “thought” they would. But outside of that …

    Atrios pointed out that so far, the Trump admin has not been as bad as the Bush Jr admin in terms of doing horrible things – and killing hundreds of thousands
    of people. And all THOSE people have their crimes virtually whitewashed.

  138. 138.

    rikyrah

    September 18, 2017 at 4:15 pm

    @John Cole:

    As always, I am the asshole.

    Nah…

    You’re good people, Cole.

  139. 139.

    Study pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn

    September 18, 2017 at 4:15 pm

    @Corner Stone:If we were sitting at an outdoor cafe, I’d berate you over that comment.

  140. 140.

    Mnemosyne

    September 18, 2017 at 4:16 pm

    @tobie:

    We wasted precious resources in terms of the energy on our side pushing for Medicare4All last week. This was unnecessary and it took our eye off the ball.

    Funny how that one not-a-Democrat keeps scoring own goals against our team right when we need everyone to stay united, innit? ?

  141. 141.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 4:16 pm

    @Yutsano: people will die…

  142. 142.

    SFAW

    September 18, 2017 at 4:17 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    well, if they don’t do it in *checks watch* 12 days, it will have in fact been stopped.

    Unless Traitor Turtle overrules the Senate calendarian, and decides September has 35 days (or more, if necessary).

  143. 143.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 18, 2017 at 4:17 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Elana Schor‏Verified account eschor
    McCain tells reporters he’s not there yet on Cassidy-Graham, wants hearings/markup – which Johnson’s cmte can’t do, lacking jurisdiction.

    We’ll see…. the old man does love media praise, as much I suspect as anyone else in DC, even trump.

  144. 144.

    SFAW

    September 18, 2017 at 4:18 pm

    @jl:

    I think we are supposed to fill in ‘Exit, chased by a bear’ after that line by Cole.

    Well, if we wrote “Exeunt Omnes,” then I, for one, would miss him.

  145. 145.

    O. Felix Culpa

    September 18, 2017 at 4:20 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    the fact that Mueller is being slow and deliberate reassures me.

    Me too. This case is complex with many intertwining threads. I like the fact that Mueller keeps on hiring very expensive subject matter experts, that they are willing to take major pay cuts to join his team (because it means there’s something worth their while there), and that they are conducting their investigation thoroughly and carefully. Hopefully all their work and deliberation lead to airtight cases. I’m looking forward to the final Mueller Report.

  146. 146.

    Josie

    September 18, 2017 at 4:20 pm

    @Mnemosyne: What a coincidence!

    /snark

  147. 147.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 4:22 pm

    @tobie: Now ask yourself about the strategic considerations behind making that push last week? Led by the purity uber alles crowd who want a revolution. They want this bill to pass. They need it to pass. To heighten the contradictions. So that people will get angry and join their revolution.

    Unfortunately they are very bad strategists. And historians. This isn’t how revolutions start or happen. The reality is that people who can least afford it will pay the price for these folks’ purity of vision. And while it may make them angry, it will also leave them more impoverished and more exhausted from just trying to survive. It won’t turn them into revolutionaries. And it won’t lead them to believe that the same government that just made their lives even more miserable, shortened them, led to the deaths of their loved ones is going to be the same government that if they just give it a little more power and put that power in the right hands (the ideologically pure ones) then their lives will be magically transformed for the better.

    Senator Sanders is not wrong that economic justice is an important issue. He is, however, a terrible strategist, an equally bad tactician, and an uncritical thinker. He’s the old guy at work who’s been bitching about the same thing every day, all day for as long as you’ve been working with him without anything ever changing. Because he has no real idea how to think through the significant amount of minutiae required to make it happen. Let alone what the minutiae is that has to be dealt with is.

  148. 148.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 4:22 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I guess everyone needs to pick a couple of out of state Senators and contact them. I’ll send some FAXs. Remind McCain of his stirring speech.

    And send something the fool Heller can understand: ‘Health Bill BAD! No Health Bill! NO!’

    My NV connections told me Heller and his most recent DEm opponent were ‘nice guys’, not very bright or diligent, who would do just baarrreeelllyyyy enough to get by, and find a rationalization for the easiest way out. I wonder if Heller has decided that winning another term is just too hard, and better to do what is needed for the GOP wingnut welfare circuit.

  149. 149.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:24 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    All is lost, BJ commenter brigade is out in full force. Carry on guys.

    We’re going to throw this right back at you the next time you blow up over immigration issues.

  150. 150.

    SFAW

    September 18, 2017 at 4:24 pm

    @catclub:

    Atrios pointed out that so far, the Trump admin has not been as bad as the Bush Jr admin in terms of doing horrible things – and killing hundreds of thousands of people.

    Yeah, whatever. I might point out that the proximate “justification” for sending hundreds of thousands of people to their deaths did not occur until one week ago, and then it took awhile for Cheney to ramp up the war crimes division of that administration. So, thanks Atrios, but get back to me when the timelines sync up. [Note: I generally like Atrios, but saying “Bush killed more during his first term than Lying Littledick has” is kind of pointless at the eight-months-in stage.]

  151. 151.

    efgoldman

    September 18, 2017 at 4:24 pm

    @NotMax:

    To efgoldman, my sympathies.

    Even before Sinclair, I had switched to the local CBS affiliate. WJAR got too happy news and too tightly formatted for my taste. Plus I REALLY don’t trust NBC network news; I DO trust CBS.

  152. 152.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:26 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    He is, however, a terrible strategist, an equally bad tactician, and an uncritical thinker.

    And those are his good points.

  153. 153.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 18, 2017 at 4:26 pm

    @SFAW: Thank you for that.

  154. 154.

    O. Felix Culpa

    September 18, 2017 at 4:26 pm

    @J R in WV: I like the way you think.

  155. 155.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 4:26 pm

    @tobie: @Adam L Silverman:

    Well, then Schumer was in on Bernie’s plot, since he was down playing Graham-Cassidy too.
    And BS has had as many, or more, tweets alerting people to Graham-Cassidy danger as his Medicare for all symbolic bill.

    I would think some people on the Dem side would look over to the mindless rabid infighting, the everlasting feuds that have messed up the GOP Congress and take a clue. But no, they don’t. I prefer let the feuders here just spout away. Better they take up their time commenting on blogs.

  156. 156.

    tobie

    September 18, 2017 at 4:27 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: This is so true. People just trying to make ends meet and who find themselves routinely screwed don’t become activists. They don’t have the time and they have no reason to have faith in the system.

  157. 157.

    Millard Filmore

    September 18, 2017 at 4:27 pm

    @catclub:

    And all THOSE people have their crimes virtually whitewashed.

    All of THOSE people were not engaging in traitorous acts against the USA. I think the reaction will be different this time.

  158. 158.

    SFAW

    September 18, 2017 at 4:28 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    They need it to pass. To heighten the contradictions. So that people will get angry and join their revolution.
    Unfortunately they are very bad strategists. And historians.

    Yeah, that was a Saint Ralph the Pure argument. How’d that work out for you Ralphie, you smug, sanctimonious fuck? The “generation of liberalism” you predicted is right around the corner, ain’t it? Fuck you, Ralph.

    ETA: Adam — I obviously still have an axe to grind re: that motherfucker. Sorry for going tangent to your excellent point.

  159. 159.

    efgoldman

    September 18, 2017 at 4:29 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Especially with the AG recused.

    It’s also possible that Evil Leprechaun is himself the subject of an investigation.

  160. 160.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:29 pm

    @Millard Filmore:

    All of THOSE people were not engaging in traitorous acts against the USA. I think the reaction will be different this time.

    Torture.

    The fuckers signed off on Torture. Imprisonment without trial. They destroyed countless lives.

    And they got away with it.

    Sorry, but there’s a reason why some of us are so cynical.

  161. 161.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 4:30 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’m a little surprised that McCain would be willing to go from his upcoming end-of-life narrative being “but in the end when it mattered he did the right thing” to being “he did the right thing, and then, immediately after, when it mattered again, he didn’t.”

  162. 162.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 4:31 pm

    Why don’t some of you H/B feuders get cracking on contacting Senators on Graham-Cassidy?
    Or, if you can find a way to shut up Bernie and shut his and allied operation down, go get it done.
    Just a suggestion. If not, I guess chattering endlessly on a blog is a good use or your time.

  163. 163.

    Millard Filmore

    September 18, 2017 at 4:31 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    They want this bill to pass. They need it to pass. To heighten the contradictions.

    Just as a general rhetorical question, how high are the contradictions in North Korea?

  164. 164.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 4:32 pm

    @TenguPhule: I fail to see how those are equivalent. One is being angry at something that is, another is (thus far mostly incorrect) doom forecasting about the future.

  165. 165.

    tobie

    September 18, 2017 at 4:32 pm

    @jl: You’ve got this ass-backwards. It’s the caucus members that check with the caucus leadership about whether they should introduce a bill and when. The fact that Schumer didn’t sign on as a cosponsor indicates his tepid support for a poorly crafted bill designed as a litmus test.

  166. 166.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:33 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I’m a little surprised that McCain would be willing to go from his upcoming end-of-life narrative being “but in the end when it mattered he did the right thing” to being “he did the right thing, and then, immediately after, when it mattered again, he didn’t.”

    This could be his Sarah Palin moment on Healthcare.

  167. 167.

    schrodingers_cat

    September 18, 2017 at 4:34 pm

    @TenguPhule: I am sure you will.
    @Major Major Major Major: Forget it M4, facts don’t matter, neither does logic.

  168. 168.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 18, 2017 at 4:35 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: but the only ones saying that last part would be us

    Benjy Sarlin‏Verified account BenjySarlin
    McCain tells GarrettHaake he wants bipartisan bill with wks of hearings. BUT may “reluctantly” back Graham-Cassidy if AZ Gov approves

    that was early this morning, this afternoon he was back to calling for hearings– shrug emoji– who knows what he’ll do? He loves Lindsey, hates McConnell and trump, loves to hear himself flattered, hates Obama, doesn’t care about poor people….

  169. 169.

    J R in WV

    September 18, 2017 at 4:36 pm

    @efgoldman:

    Me too, mostly. NBC keeps Andrea Mitchell Greenspan on the air, and I watched her at the Democratic national Convention last year. We watched the same speech, Andrea and I, and then she had the effrontery to lie to me about what I had just seen and heard with my own eyes. Haven’t watched NBC news since that night.

    Whether CBS is trustworthy, I don’t really know. I do know that NBC is NOT trustworthy, they seem dedicated to the total Republican philosophy mostly. CBS may just be more skilled at not showing their slant, I can’t tell for sure.

  170. 170.

    tobie

    September 18, 2017 at 4:36 pm

    @jl: A few steps ahead of you here. I already called the Republican governor of my blue state with two Democratic senators and stressed the cost of Graham-Cassidy for our state.

  171. 171.

    Yutsano

    September 18, 2017 at 4:36 pm

    @TenguPhule: Maybe. Apparently Grandpa Walnuts is back to a no.

  172. 172.

    O. Felix Culpa

    September 18, 2017 at 4:37 pm

    @jl:

    I guess chattering endlessly on a blog is a good use of your time.

    So why are you here, exactly?

  173. 173.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 4:37 pm

    @efgoldman

    Gave up on watching local news ages ago. While in NY, sat through the one Mom prefers (WCBS, 11 p.m.).

    Dreadful micro-sensationalism. One petty crime report after another, night after night.

  174. 174.

    germy

    September 18, 2017 at 4:38 pm

    @rikyrah:

    Sahil Kapur‏Verified account
    @sahilkapur

    McCAIN on Graham-Cassidy: “I am not supportive of the bill yet.”

    He emphasizes he wants regular order, says CBO non-score affects his view.

  175. 175.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 4:39 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    shrug emoji

    I much prefer the emoticon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  176. 176.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 18, 2017 at 4:40 pm

    @tobie: called this morning and about to send faxes through resist-bot

    and fuck Bernie with an industrial-strength diamond-tipped power drill

  177. 177.

    J R in WV

    September 18, 2017 at 4:40 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    Thanks. It may be a day cream, but it’s a good one.

    Hoping we get to watch Trump being interrogated by Mueller in a witness dock, with Mueller pulling up video or sworn testimony contradicting every statement Trump makes. Including his name and occupation!

  178. 178.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:41 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I fail to see how those are equivalent. One is being angry at something that is, another is (thus far mostly incorrect) doom forecasting about the future.

    At this point it would be called trolling if someone who wasn’t a regular did it. She’s done this repeatedly and these posts belittling the valid concerns of others come off as a big extended middle finger.

  179. 179.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:41 pm

    @J R in WV:

    It may be a day cream, but it’s a good one.

    TMI.

  180. 180.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 4:43 pm

    @TenguPhule: So you don’t like it when she’s mad about the way things are.

  181. 181.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:44 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Forget it M4, facts don’t matter, neither does logic.

    May I remind you that you were the same person insisting that Democrats had to prove their purity to you by rushing to die on the hill of H1B visas? And that you completely blew your shit when people kept telling you it was a bad idea?

  182. 182.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 4:45 pm

    @J R in WV

    Don’t really watch broadcast TV network news these days, but have been impressed by NBC’s Richard Engel when I happen to catch him. Class him as a 21st century incarnation of CBS’ Robert Trout, a reliable, knowledgeable and proficient workhorse.

  183. 183.

    Millard Filmore

    September 18, 2017 at 4:46 pm

    @TenguPhule: Oooofff! One letter off, and its a good one!

  184. 184.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:46 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    So you don’t like it when she’s mad about the way things are.

    No, I’m annoyed that she seems to think only concerns she agrees with are valid and fuck the rest of us.

  185. 185.

    Miss Bianca

    September 18, 2017 at 4:46 pm

    @rikyrah: Damn, I’ve been watching “Treme” and while it’s good, it’s not “The Wire” good. I’m gonna have to get the whole series out again soon, and I already watched the whole series once this year!

    @eclare: It’s the truth. I even forgave him for killing off a certain other favorite character. ; )

  186. 186.

    schrodingers_cat

    September 18, 2017 at 4:47 pm

    @TenguPhule: That was not what I said that was your interpretation. Since I am a troll according to you, why don’t you just ignore what I have to say.

    FWIW its worth I do have the very same concerns. Constant negativity, behaving as if all is already lost is what bothers me.

  187. 187.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 4:47 pm

    @TenguPhule: That was, like, twice. You do this every day. ETA also what s_c just said

  188. 188.

    tobie

    September 18, 2017 at 4:47 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Thanks for the calls. This reminds me that I should do it for my folks, Florida residents, who for health reasons are unable to do so themselves right now.

  189. 189.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 4:47 pm

    @jl: I think you missed my point. I have no problem with either Medicare for All or some other form of universal healthcare. I also have no problem making an aspirational signaling of it. Nor of Senator Schumer and other Democratic Party leaders – elected to office and at official Democratic Party organizations – swallowing a little pride to keep Senator Sanders in the tent (largely) pissing out, rather than out of the tent pissing in.

    The strategic failure of last week, which is really a strategic communication failure, was that it was done last week. It needed to wait until the ability to move ACA repeal through the Senate through reconciliation expires at the end of the month. If they came out and made the announcement on 1 October would it have been any less important than doing it last week? No. What it would have done is kept this type of stupidity from happening:

    This is a stupid tweet. pic.twitter.com/JfxYrVyPzv

    — Gus™ (@Gus_802) September 15, 2017

    This is a member of the @DNC Unity Commission advocating for people to not save the ACA, advocating for people to throw away the ACA for a https://t.co/vVYL6joVRF

    — Lynn V. (@lynnv378) September 15, 2017

  190. 190.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 18, 2017 at 4:48 pm

    @J R in WV: Hoping we get to watch Trump being interrogated by Mueller in a witness dock,

    they released videos of Clinton being deposed (I think it was a deposition? NAL), so there’s a precedent– and Monica Lewinsky pretty much laughing at one of the impeachment managers, I forget which one. I’m looking forward to Fredo Sr’s Senate testimony

  191. 191.

    J R in WV

    September 18, 2017 at 4:49 pm

    @J R in WV:

    Ouch! Now there’s a typo!!

  192. 192.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 4:50 pm

    @efgoldman: I’m sure.

  193. 193.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:50 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: I’m perfectly prepared to read your normal posts. My beef is when you post these assholeish “All is lost, BJ commenter brigade is out in full force. Carry on guys.” on every thread you don’t agree with. It doesn’t contribute anything, its not funny and all it does is piss people off.

  194. 194.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 4:53 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa: “So why are you here, exactly?” Thank you for the obvious cheap shot that needs no response

    @tobie: Sorry, I don’t understand your comment. I said nothing about Schumer supporting or not supporting the Medicare for all bill. I did a quick look at Senators’ twitters. Graham-Cassidy wasn’t a high priority until middle of last week. And right before that, the big threat was supposed to be Senate Finance committee going after CHIP..

    Thanks for sending the FAX. I’m going to FAX all the borderline Senate GOPers.today.

  195. 195.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:53 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    You do this every day.

    i belittle the people in a thread by labeling them all as doom and gloomers?

  196. 196.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 4:55 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Graham is involved. Anything Graham asks of him he’ll do.

  197. 197.

    Major Major Major Major

    September 18, 2017 at 4:56 pm

    @TenguPhule: I do that regularly. ETA and you aren’t yelling at me. So that’s not really a good point.

    ETAA Eh, you kids have fun.

  198. 198.

    O. Felix Culpa

    September 18, 2017 at 4:56 pm

    @jl: I’m calling you out on bullshit – blog commenter calling other blog commenters out for blog commenting. Also your assumption that folks haven’t done the work of calling/faxing their legislators and other activist engagement.

    ETA: Glad you’re moving now to fax. Some of us did that already, without shaming our fellow blog commenters.

  199. 199.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 4:57 pm

    @Millard Filmore: Glorious Marshall Kim has presided over the construction of the highest of heightened contradictions. All citizens of the DPRK rejoice at his efforts!

  200. 200.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 4:58 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Looks like we disagree that it was all that important. As my comment above indicates, I don’t see that any Dems perceived Graham-Cassidy as a threat. The Senate effort to damage CHIP was the threat until middle of last week.

    I think you could make just a good a point that the Dem-Trump ‘deal’ on DACA was a tactical error, since if freed up the Senate Calendar. There would be Senators running around yelling about debt limit now otherwise.

    I think the Hillary/Benrie feud mania is becoming a mind destroyng addiction.

  201. 201.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 4:59 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I do that regularly. ETA and you aren’t yelling at me. So that’s not really a good point.

    You stick around, argue it out and offer either biting wit, humor or actual suggestions for improvement. I can respect that.

    You don’t drive by with a one line and that’s it.

  202. 202.

    jl

    September 18, 2017 at 5:00 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa: I try not to comment on the feud. I will let this me a lesson to me to never do so again. Since some of the commenters have let it drive them crazy. There. I tried to dial down the meta to the merely the n-th level. See you folks later.

  203. 203.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 5:01 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    The lapdogs of capitalist imperialism will choke on the menu of contradictions.

    (Too Chinese?)

  204. 204.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 5:01 pm

    @jl:

    I think the Hillary/Bernie feud mania is becoming a mind destroyng addiction.

    I do not disagree with you on this point.

  205. 205.

    Adam L Silverman

    September 18, 2017 at 5:02 pm

    @NotMax: Yep. I’d have gone with the kimche of contradictions. Kept it contextually bound.

  206. 206.

    tobie

    September 18, 2017 at 5:03 pm

    @jl: I hope your faxes are among the hundreds of thousands that pour into the offices of GOP senators. Thanks for the effort.

    In my original post, I said we wasted precious energy with a symbolic bill last week:

    This was unnecessary and it took our eye off the ball.

    The ball was that Obamacare was in jeopardy and that we needed to do what we could to preserve it as a first order of business. FWIW: I don’t think the transition to single payer in a country where over half the people get their healthcare through their employer will be easy and for that reason I think it would be better for us to take a page from the German and Swiss healthcare systems. But that’s besides the point right now. Making sure Graham Cassidy goes down and the reconciliation deadline passes are top priorities.

  207. 207.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 18, 2017 at 5:03 pm

    @TenguPhule: Your apocalyptic fantasy comments annoy the living fuck out of a lot of people, or hadn’t you noticed? A bunch of people find constant negativity to be draining. Maybe you need to do it to vent; if that is the case, you should consider that other people might feel the need to vent about you. You are fucking relentless in being a downer. People, including s_c and I, have been known to feel the need to counter your narrative of inevitable defeat. Sometimes by direct argument and, because it is B-J, sometimes by sarcastic comments.

  208. 208.

    schrodingers_cat

    September 18, 2017 at 5:04 pm

    @TenguPhule: Belittling you is not my intention. I am just expressing my frustration at the all is lost narrative. If that is true, then I should probably sell everything I own and leave because I tick almost every fucking box on T and company’s hate list

  209. 209.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 5:09 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I am just expressing my frustration at the all is lost narrative.

    Then at least do something witty with it. Humor, parody, something more then a one liner. Heck, I’d settle for you just calling for the negativity to stop, rather then labeling people for it. I’ve been trying to stay away from being too depressed, but its still a work in progress. And I have been trying, I’ve been deleting about 60% of my posts after typing but before submitting.

  210. 210.

    Miss Bianca

    September 18, 2017 at 5:13 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: You said “Florence Jenkins”. : )

  211. 211.

    StudlyPantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn

    September 18, 2017 at 5:16 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    it makes it sound like a transformer that hides out as a sandwich.

    I just lolled in my mouth a little.

  212. 212.

    sdhays

    September 18, 2017 at 5:17 pm

    @Kay: I don’t know what level of coordination happened/was necessary (but the Cambridge Analytica connection suggests it may have been much more extensive than you or I might have suspected), but I’m convinced they were all working on this together because it’s clear that Donny and Jared were expecting a Russian payday. They really are that stupid and greedy. And having the US consumed with dealing with figuring out what to do with a (stupid) traitor as President is almost as good as having a competent puppet from Putin’s perspective.

    I strongly suspect the trail is there since half of it was actually public. Jared wanted to talk to Putin from the Russian Embassy using Russian encryption equipment because he was afraid of what US intelligence would overhear; there is a reason for that.

  213. 213.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    September 18, 2017 at 5:20 pm

    @Miss Bianca: I started with “coked up Maria Callas”, then I remembered she sang good. So I went another way

  214. 214.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 5:20 pm

    @Miss Bianca

    Happy b’day, Miss B!

  215. 215.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 18, 2017 at 5:23 pm

    @Miss Bianca: Happy birthday? Any plans?

  216. 216.

    randy khan

    September 18, 2017 at 5:25 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    It’s one of those things that’s hard to know unless you actually live and work in the D.C. area and walk past both locations on a regular basis.

  217. 217.

    Miss Bianca

    September 18, 2017 at 5:27 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Have you ever read “Songs in the Key of Z”? That’s where I first learned about Flo and a lot of her wonderful companions in the world of “outsider music”.

  218. 218.

    randy khan

    September 18, 2017 at 5:29 pm

    @jl:

    Not that I’m saying that Bernie is a great strategist, but it seems to me that there was no actual harm in the Dems lining up for something positive – now they can say they have a plan to extend coverage to everyone, while the Republicans want to take it away from millions of people.

  219. 219.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    September 18, 2017 at 5:29 pm

    @Miss Bianca: Happy B-day!

  220. 220.

    Miss Bianca

    September 18, 2017 at 5:30 pm

    @NotMax: thank you! : ) @Omnes Omnibus: ‘Tis my birthday, and no real plans besides tapping into a little of the “Heavy Petal” I bottled last night, with my friend D. It’s our latest mead creation, featuring some wild rose petals we harvested in July for a flavoring agent.

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: thank you!

  221. 221.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    September 18, 2017 at 5:31 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I was going to get snarky, but thanks.

  222. 222.

    Kay

    September 18, 2017 at 5:31 pm

    @sdhays:

    I’m not happy with the work of federal law enforcement. Mueller isn’t a replacement for them. He has a special, limited portfolio. They still have to do their job. There were a couple of parts to this. One of them was that state election systems were breached, which is a CRIME. Forget Trump and collusion. Breaking into a state election system is a crime.

    I want them to 1. solve the crime and 2. bring the criminals to justice.

    This is being portrayed as if nothing happened outside of possible coordination with the Trump campaign, as if that bar has to ne met or it’s no harm, no foul. I want a regular criminal investigation into who breached state election systems and the extent of that break-in. This is not the special prosecutors job or Congresses job. It’s a law enforcement action. They don’t need Republican permission or an impeachment proceeding to investigate that crime.

    This is a matter of some urgency! There’s another election in less than a year. Mueller is an add-on. He’s not the main law enforcement mechanism in the US and he sure as hell isn’t the only person who is supposed to be working on this.

    I’m not satisfied when the FBI or state election officials tell me “vote totals weren’t changed”. That’s not the point. The break in is the point.

  223. 223.

    schrodingers_cat

    September 18, 2017 at 5:32 pm

    @TenguPhule: Okay I will keep that in mind, the next time I am exasperated enough to express my frustration about negativity. Meanwhile, I hope you feel better soon. I do agree that these are trying times for all of us.

  224. 224.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    September 18, 2017 at 5:32 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

    wild rose petals

    So that’s what the kids are calling it these days.

  225. 225.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 5:33 pm

    @Miss Bianca

    Memorable line (paraphrased) from Ethel Merman when she guest starred as herself on That Girl –

    Attending a party at Marlo Thomas’ character’s apartment, she apologizes for leaving early. “I need to get my sleep because I’ll be singing tomorrow and have to hit a high H.”

  226. 226.

    El Caganer

    September 18, 2017 at 5:34 pm

    What happened to that Murray- Alexander health bill? Did it just vanish in the night? ‘Cause that could have been sold as a reform, and a bi-partisan one, too. I’m sure Nelson is a “no” on this Graham monstrosity; unfortunately, even though I’ll ask him nicely not to, Rubio is almost certainly a “yes.”

  227. 227.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    September 18, 2017 at 5:34 pm

    @Kay: I’m old enough to remember Watergate pretty well; it’s not the crime but the coverup that gets you.

  228. 228.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 5:38 pm

    @Miss Bianca

    If you can make mead you can make cyser, which opens up other realms of flavor possibilities. Friend here makes one that tastes like liquid apple pie, with a kick and a half in each sip.

    (According to him, don’t try making mango cyser, just plain doesn’t work out right.)

  229. 229.

    Kay

    September 18, 2017 at 5:42 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    Actually if there hadn’t have been a prosecution for the burglary there wouldn’t have been a Watergate.

    Were state election systems broken into? Yes? That’s a crime. Investigate it. It doesn’t have to “lead” anywhere. It’s an offense all by itself.

    This has become ridiculous. We’re not investigating the crimes we know happened because we’re all waiting for this one man to prove a criminal conspiracy to commit those crimes. The DOJ and the FBI aren’t off the hook! This is still their job! Forget Trump. Solve the election systems break in. Someone has to. Mueller sure as shit isn’t gonna- it’s not his job.

  230. 230.

    Miss Bianca

    September 18, 2017 at 5:44 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: No, *seriously*! Not that I’m averse to adding a bit of that “wacky tobacky” as a flavoring agent/intoxicant, either! Just haven’t got around to it yet! : )

  231. 231.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    September 18, 2017 at 5:46 pm

    @Kay: Could state AG’s investigate this since elections are state run? Since elections are state fun, is it a federal matter?

  232. 232.

    Miss Bianca

    September 18, 2017 at 5:48 pm

    @NotMax: I have a cyser planned, in fact – we do it with orange blossom honey, as in “see? you CAN mix apples and oranges!” It’s delicious – should be ready just in time for Christmas!

  233. 233.

    O. Felix Culpa

    September 18, 2017 at 5:50 pm

    @Miss Bianca: Wishing you a day of joy and celebration!

  234. 234.

    NotMax

    September 18, 2017 at 5:58 pm

    @Miss Bianca

    Yum.

    Might be able to assemble a potent holiday trfile dessert.

  235. 235.

    Miss Bianca

    September 18, 2017 at 6:02 pm

    @O. Felix Culpa: thanks, O.Felix! Looking at getting back down to New Mexico one of these days!

  236. 236.

    O. Felix Culpa

    September 18, 2017 at 6:17 pm

    @jl: Dead thread, but I apologize for snapping and I want to explain. I deal with BernieBros constantly, in the trenches, namely real life. A certain hard core of Sandernistas never let go and never shut up. The Hillary folk don’t argue, just want to get on with the job of WINNING ELECTIONS. I’m a Democratic party ward chair. Our county party chair died in a tragic accident recently. A number of ward leaders gathered to discuss the qualities we wanted in a replacement chair, and one person talked about how MAD she is about the evil DNC in CHEATING Bernie (apropos of the discussion not at all) and another talked about how we need to make sure we choose a TRUE PROGRESSIVE. This is real life, not blog bullshit. Our county party, which was moving along nicely in grassroots organization, is being threatened by fucking Sanders splitters and it’s just one side doing it. That is all.

  237. 237.

    O. Felix Culpa

    September 18, 2017 at 6:20 pm

    @Miss Bianca: That would be awesome! Would love to have a meet-up.

  238. 238.

    SiubhanDuinne

    September 18, 2017 at 6:30 pm

    So apparently Trump had a one-on-one at the UN today with his new cher ami Emmanuel Macron, and spoke at some length and in some detail about how he wants to have a huge military parade next Fourth of July down Pennsylvania Avenue, having all the service branches march “in their different uniforms” to show the rest of the world how powerful our military is, and then something something about the amount of money we spend on our military. I felt sorry for President Macron. However did he keep from snorting out loud with suppressed laughter?

  239. 239.

    zhena gogolia

    September 18, 2017 at 6:36 pm

    @geg6:

    The world was still the world when Watergate happened. I did live through it, by the way. I watched Nixon get on the plane on a teevee in the Central Regional Office of the Small Business Administration in Kansas City, MO.

  240. 240.

    TenguPhule

    September 18, 2017 at 9:35 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Thank you. I even agree we can get out of hand, but you’d be surprised what a polite request can get you rather then just shouting at people.

    We’re jackals, but we’re not uncivilized.

  241. 241.

    frosty

    September 18, 2017 at 11:33 pm

    @efgoldman:

    You rang?

    Maynard G. Krebs?

  242. 242.

    Barry

    September 19, 2017 at 7:11 am

    @Shalimar: “That was Ruth. Most of the Cobb stories involve him punching or spiking someone.”

    I think that Cobb’s saying would be more like ‘that 14th spike really makes the difference’.

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