There is an important self defense lesson learned/to be learned from the Mandalay Bay Shooting: under certain conditions self defense, armed or empty hand, is not an option. Instead self preservation is. Some fun was had in comments this morning about social media faux tough guy Dan Bilzerian’s live streaming of his panic stricken response to being caught in the field of fire during the Mandalay Bay Shooting. Bilzerian’s response was all too human, and understandable, given the circumstances and is only the stuff of ridicule because of the persona he created for self promotion. But it is one of the many examples from Sunday’s tragic events that teach us all something important regarding self defense, especially armed self defense. Specifically there are some situations were any form of self defense, let alone armed self defense, is simply not an option. Moving as quickly as possible to cover/safety is the best option.
Even if a significant minority of the concert goers on Sunday were armed, there was no way they could effectively respond to the violent assault. There are several reasons for this. Among them is that Paddock gave himself an asymmetric advantage in his attack. He selected high ground – a room on the 32nd floor; a clear field of fire; a massed group of targets; rifles modified to simulate/approximate fully automatic fire (12 of the 19 recovered in his hotel room had bump fire stocks); and electronic surveillance of the approaches to his room, which allowed him to defeat attempts by hotel security. He shot the guard willing to risk entry to stop him. This kept the police from quickly breach the room to stop him. Instead they waited for SWAT to arrive on scene and conduct the breach. Under these conditions armed self defense is useless.
Even if an armed concert goer or passerby could have quickly ascertained where the shots were coming from, unless armed with a rifle and carrying significant ammunition, there was no way to lay down sustained suppressive fire to stop Paddock from continuing to fire on the crowd. There was almost no place with effective cover to set up to return fire without exposing oneself to Paddock’s assault. And most everyday carriers, concealed or open depending on jurisdiction, carry handguns. While the possible options for everyday carry are large, let’s stipulate that everyone had compact double stack handguns even though this is unlikely the case in reality. These would be auto-loading from a magazine, semi-automatic handguns. With magazine capacities between 13 and 15 rounds depending on the caliber (9mm Parabellum/9X19 usually run 15 rounds, .40 S&W and .357 SIG about 12; and .45 ACP about 10 on average*) Let’s also stipulate that they’re carrying two backup magazines. So that’s 45 rounds, give or take, 46 if carrying with a round chambered (one in the pipe). These guns also have 4 inch barrels in length with a 6 inch site radius on average – depending on the make and model of the gun. Making a 400 yard shot, from ground level to the 32nd floor, at night, in a stress situation with a handgun is effectively impossible. Maybe Jerry Miculek or one of the other professional shooters could pull it off, but that would be about it. And that’s a big maybe as handguns just aren’t designed to accurately shoot that far, especially from ground level on to an elevated target. This is what rifles are for.
While the debate on whether having an armed citizenry actually deters or defeats crime will rage on, as well as the debate over the proper meaning of the 2nd Amendment and how it should be understood and incorporated into 21st Century America, the real lesson learned/to be learned from the Mandalay Bay shooting is that armed self defense is useless as a response to this type of shooting. We can extrapolate that it would also be useless in a similarly designed terrorist attack. And make no mistake terrorist groups and potential terrorists, regardless of their ideology, doctrine, theology, dogma, and/or other motivation or group affiliation, will learn this lesson and potentially try to recreate this type of attack scenario.
What was more useful was self preservation and assisting others with surviving the assault. Getting out of the kill zone as quickly as possible or getting to effective cover was the best option for surviving the Mandalay Bay attack. And those willing to place themselves at risk to help others to do so were also more useful than anyone trying to shoot back. For instance, Jonathon Smith as just one example
Jonathan Smith, 30, saved ~30 people last night before he was shot in the neck. He might live w/the bullet for rest of his life. #vegasstrip pic.twitter.com/6hLujXWe51
— Heather Long (@byHeatherLong) October 2, 2017
Stay frosty!
* Edited for clarity: I initially entered the magazine capcities for full size not compact handguns and have subsequently corrected this.
Mike in DC
Carrying a long gun at a music concert is also not a viable (or sane) option, strangely enough.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike in DC: Yep. Despite Nevada’s rules about open carry.
Wapiti
Here in Seattle, the flags are at half staff. My 85 year-old father is not pleased. If it’s the death of a distinguished national figure, ok. If it’s a mass shooting in Seattle, maybe ok. If we’re going to lower the flag to half staff after any mass shooting – instead of doing something – maybe the flag etiquette for America should just put the flag at half staff every goddamn day. Dad’s getting crusty as he ages.
Baud
So what you’re saying is that we need more rocket launchers.
jl
I have read and heard narratives from several victims, including Smith, that they didn’t even realize they had been shot until the shock of the trauma wore off. Which seemed, from the stories, to take a lot longer than I had thought.
So, it appears that even the victims can walk around badly wounded for enough time for a prepared shooter to kill them several times over before even they understand what is happening. I didn’t need any convincing on the fantasy of the self-defense argument for an extreme interpretation of the second amendment. But for some reason, these stories from the shooting victims really focused my mind on the evil cynicism of the people and organizations spreading misinformation about self-defense.
Spanky
@Baud: Open carry rocket launchers. Of course.
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: If only one of the concert-goers had been packing a Stinger, they could have put one into Paddock’s window and taken care of the problem right quick-like.
Mnemosyne
I have actually seen morons on Facebook claiming that they totally could have taken the shooter out with their handgun if only they had been there. Because apparently the laws of physics don’t apply to them personally.
But mostly it’s all whining about how we’re not thinking of the feelings of the good gun owners and how terrible it must be for them to be lumped in with murderers. To that I say, lay down with dogs, get up with fleas. If you don’t like being lumped in with murderous spree killers, stop supporting policies that enable murderous spree killers.
Miss Bianca
Adam, how can you possibly say that the important takeaway here is that armed response would have been useless against this shooting?! The important takeaway as far as our corporate and governmental masters in the GOP are concerned is that, useless or not, “MOAR GUNZ!” is the only appropriate response to any mass shooting event!
Wjs
What was funny about the whole Bilzerian thing was having Dakota Meyer-the MoH recipient who almost married Bristol Palin-call him out on it.
Sorry, but Bilzerian’s core audience has little recourse there, even if they are pretty stupid.
bystander
Serpentine! Serpentine!
Doug R
Copy edit nit: should be all too human
Adam L Silverman
@Baud: Yes.
Gin & Tonic
@jl: I’ve never been shot, but I’ve suffered traumatic injuries a few times. t really does take a while for your brain to process the problem you’re having.
Sourmash
I saw Hannity on Trevor Noah talking about how brave he would have been (HA!) which Noah cut him up on. Did anyone see this? Hannity referred to a magazine as a “clip” which every Ammosexual will razz you about forever, since “IT’S A MAGAZINE, DUMBO!! DON’T TALK ABOUT IT IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT IT IS!!11!!!” I can’t look but is anyone in the fever swamps giving ol’ Sean a hard time about that?
jl
@Baud: If everyone were a well trained sniper, these tragedies would not happen, That is the real lesson. Will have to make big changes in infrastructure and traffic laws when everyone is crawling around dragging their heavy-duty sniper weapons and kit bags behind them, but it will be worth it.
tractarian
I dunno, do we really need 1,000 words to confirm that firing back in self-defense wasn’t an option here?
What is the point of this post?
Ah, I see: verbal masturbation. Carry on then.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: Being shot and its aftermath is often referred to as crazy time. As in time goes crazy. The body may or may not be in complete shock. Time dilates, etc.
Baud
@jl:
Only then will we be truly free.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: I’m not being funded by the NRA or any other firearm organization. Take the King’s coin, do the King’s bidding…
germy
I feel like there’s a tug of war going on in the media over the shooter.
Competing stories: “He was a quiet retired guy who loved to gamble and loved his girlfriend. Just a regular guy.”
“He was verbally abusive to his girlfriend in public.”
“He was just a normal guy.”
“His neighbors said he was aggressively standoffish. Never spoke, kept his curtains closed all day.”
“Family members are shocked. They had no clue he could do this.”
“His father was on FBI’s Most Wanted list; they called him a psychopath.”
etc.
Half the reporters are so desperate to humanize and normalize him, while the other half want to report the uncomfortable facts.
Baud
@Sourmash: Why the hell did Noah invite Sean Hannity onto his show?
jl
@Baud: Baud Bazookas! Has a ring to it. Try to work it into a slogan for 2020.
Mnemosyne
@Sourmash:
I “love” the people who insist that they need a 50-round magazine for hunting. If you need 50 rounds to take down a deer, you’re the worst fucking shot in the world and need to have your guns taken away before you accidentally kill someone.
Adam L Silverman
@Wjs: He actually did, finally, marry her. Talking about taking a bullet! It is important to remember that Bilzerian went through the Basic Underwater Demolition School (BUDS), which is the basic qualification course to become a SEAL, twice. He was washed out the second and final time for committing firearm safety breaches on the range. This means the Mustangs overseeing the training, both the range masters and the overall trainers, decided he couldn’t be trusted with a firearm in a stress situation on a small team conducting operations. If they thought he could he would’ve gotten a spot correction and allowed to move on. They basically determined that between his attitude/mindset and his behavior he couldn’t be trained to be safe with weaponry and was therefore unsuited for Naval Special Warfare. There isn’t a much worse indictment of someone seeking to join that community.
jl
@tractarian:
https://balloon-juice.com/2017/10/04/an-important-lesson-to-be-learned-from-the-mandalay-bay-shooting/#comment-6579973
Adam L Silverman
@bystander: Well played!
trollhattan
Y’all are going to love this.
p.s. As a non-technical person in these regards I find the whole “bump-stock fitted semiautomatic rifle” versus machine gun a distinction without a difference. The Vegas concert audio documents many shots/second, not unlike the sound of my best camera’s top frame rate. Nobody’s twitchy trigger finger can do that.
Whether the fucking thing melts after a few dozen shots seems irrelevant given a two literal roomsful of rifles.
p.s. Not directed at you, Adam, but the seven separate discussions on my radio this a.m. “All these items are legal.” They bloody better not be in the future.
germy
@Baud: I didn’t see the clip but I’m pretty sure Noah simply played highlights of Hannity’s show. I doubt Sean would lower himself to appear on Trevor’s show.
You never see people like Sean outside of their protective bubble.
Peej
Drone could drop flash grenade or menagerie of sharks & pirahnas through the window of such a gunman.
Baud
@germy: That makes more sense.
bystander
@germy: I loved the humorous anecdote about how he would carry a cigar and blow smoke in the faces of people smoking cigars. The raconteur – his brother? – referred to it as “micro-aggression”.
Repatriated
I’ll repeat something I’ve said here recently: This massacre proved — if more proof were necessary at this point — that the entire concept of the War on Terror was a massive hoax.
An attack of this type could have been committed many times over in the last 16 years, yet hasn’t. This shows that AQ didn’t have any infiltratable, reliable agents to send here (or a pool of potential recruits in place). We couldn’t have been that lucky, and if we were that good it would have made the news.
Patricia Kayden
@Mnemosyne: I’ve heard several attendees explain that they pulling out guns in a situation like that would have just confused the police and possibly gotten the wrong person shot. How would the police know who the shooter was if when they show up, they find everyone with guns? Sigh.
germy
@Mnemosyne:
Here’s something odd I saw last year on my local news. They did a story on “concealed carry” and of course they gave the pro gun folks plenty of time to talk, as well as the last word. One of the concealed carry advocates was saying it was beneficial to hunters.
When I heard that I was like “Wait, deer can recognize firearms now? If they think you’re unarmed, they won’t run?”
Adam L Silverman
@tractarian: I had 1/2 an hour to kill.
Hal
Ok Cher
Karen
@Mnemosyne: from family of deer hunters, a box of twenty should last you for years; one shot = one deer anything else was not acceptable.
germy
@bystander: I read it as he hated cigarette smoke. And so whenever someone lit up a cigarette in his presence, he’d pull out a cigar, light it, and blow cigar smoke in their face.
Actually chilling, when you think about it. His philosophy of resolving conflicts? Escalate it. Blow smoke. Spray bullets.
Millard Filmore
@Baud:
And still miss the target room.
trollhattan
@germy: @bystander:
ANYBODY interviewed about this fucker who knew him had better say, “I never knew he was a psychopath” and not intone that he was “normal.” Stephen Paddock wasn’t typical in how he lived his life and a normal person doesn’t contemplate, much less plan and execute a mass killing. If anything he was more or less containing vast oceans of rage though life, until containment was lost.
Mnemosyne
@Repatriated:
Yep. The only vaguely similar attack was the San Bernardino workplace shooting where the perpetrators decided to claim they were part of ISIL to make themselves sound more badass. The husband was a natural-born American citizen who lived here his whole life and was radicalized on the Internet.
SiubhanDuinne
Senator Thune says all you have to do to stay safe under unprecedented gunfire is “get small,” and Senator Inhofe (is he a Senator or. Representative? can’t remember) blames the Las Vegas carnage on the existence of “sanctuary cities,” and that dandruffy old godfart Pat Robertson says it wouldn’t have happened at all if only we had been more respectful of Trumpian presidential authority.
::weep::
?BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: IT…JUST…MIGHT…WORK.
trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
The wife seemed to be a piece of work, at least based on what little we know of her but yeah…”Uh, I’m with ISIS” sounds a lot better than “I hate those assholes at work” or “Those nightclub gays really get my goat!”
Davebo
@Mnemosyne: In fairness there are lots of gun owners who support logical gun control measures.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Go ahead let the gun tecno babble flow. when you write this stuff. One tactic gun fanatics use is to (in very bad faith) display their supposed superior technical knowledge to guns ‘n’ ammo and all things blow-uppity to dismiss any arguments against everyone being allowed to carry pocket nukes.
So, you need that stuff in there. I hope you have the courage to carry on despite the ferocity of anonymous internet commenters who have 30 seconds to kill and fill with random snot.
Mike J
What’s behind what you’re shooting at? If you had a weapon with sufficient power to hit somebody on the 32nd floor, the bullet isn’t going to stop when it hits its target. Even if you are perfect and every shot you fired hit the target, you’re still spraying lead into adjacent hotel rooms.
trollhattan
@Millard Filmore:
Our rockets are better. Trust us!
Tuna
Does no one remember the shooter in Dallas 7/16. This shooter placed himself in a building above his targets. Police and any armed civilians were unable to respond until they could determine where the gunman was. Please, what happened in LV is not new but just a repeat of what happen 13 months ago.
germy
@trollhattan:
“Why do these nightclub gays keep getting my goat?”
Matt McIrvin
@Mnemosyne: A friend reports that he’s been having an argument with someone who takes the Vegas shooting as evidence that people should be open-carrying rifles at all times.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@germy: He got his ass handed to him by a comedian* who had an Air America show at the time at the 2004 RNC,
*We call him Senator Franken now.
Mnemosyne
@Davebo:
If you support rational gun laws, then I’m not talking about you. If you say things like, There’s no reason to restrict sales of semi-automatic weapons because the people who want them will just get them anyway, then you’re part of the problem.
trollhattan
@jl:
Gadzooks, Baudzookas!
Patricia Kayden
@trollhattan: Not necessarily. They’ll get fair trials. They’re White men. They’ll be alright.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
What I find weird, and infuriating, is the NRA is always there to push guns toward being more dangerous to the general public, but actively works against things like biometric trigger locks that would make them safer. Higher rates of fire? NRA is pro that. Giving guns to people who have been judged mentally incompetent to manage their own finances? Yes, by all means, arm them. Biometric trigger locks that would prevent your own gun being used by your kid, or an adversary who happened to get ahold of it in a struggle…that’s beyond the pale man. Many gun owners want those trigger locks because they understand it would prevent a child from using the gun to accidentally maim or hurt themself or another person, or want it because they don’t want someone else using their own gun against them in a self defense situation. The NRA, however, does not want guns to have that safety feature, but they do want the mentally incompetent to have guns with high rates of fire. It is absolutely insane.
Mnemosyne
@Matt McIrvin:
Yes, because those people are fucking morons who think that carrying a gun gives them a magical bubble of protection around themselves and allows them to contravene the laws of physics.
Schlemazel
@jl:
The ghillie suit will double as a burka for the Muslim women so win/win!
germy
@Mike J:
I think the movies have influenced what many people think about gunfights.
Just like movies have influenced people to believe interplanetary flight is a breeze. Just a few days trip, full gravity in the spacecraft (like Star Trek!) and plenty of hospitable nearby planets to colonize.
In movies, everyone’s a crack shot (except the bad guy) and there’s rarely stray bullets killing anyone innocent, unless it’s important for a plot point revenge fantasy. (more shooting!)
Repatriated
@Peej: Ok, I can actually see equipping a large quadcopter drone with a flashbang grenade (or for extreme situations, an antipersonnel grenade or recoil-compensated shot shell) for anti-sniper actions.
The problem is getting it to where it’s needed in time, and having enough trained operators on call.
Tim C.
@Peej: Stand off and drop Sharknados from orbit, it’s the only way to be sure.
trollhattan
@germy:
I was hoping somebody would pick up on that…thanks for grabbing it by the horns! [Also, too, not the recommended approach angle]
SiubhanDuinne
@Hal:
It astonishes me how closely Trump photoshopped in a drag wig resembles actual unshopped pictures of his mother. Quite uncanny.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@SiubhanDuinne:
Somebody’s been listening to too much early Steve Martin comedy albums.
trollhattan
@Patricia Kayden:
Not only are they white dudes, they’re white dudes in Nevada, with guns!
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Been shot at once and had a pistol stuck in my face once.
Time dilates.
Gin & Tonic
@Mike J: Eggs, omelet.
Barbara
@germy: The brother who was close to him did say that he rarely put himself out for anyone, with the possible exception of family members now and again. The guy was a loner. To many people, loners are aloof and standoffish, especially in retrospect after you have found out that they perpetrated a mass murder. I don’t think this kind of varied reaction is at all unusual.
ETA: The comment about keeping the blinds drawn is especially amusing. I have all of my blinds drawn all the time with the exception of a few that can’t be seen from the street. I am not hiding anything!
Miss Bianca
@bystander:+1 for the “In-Laws” reference,
Shalimar
@Gin & Tonic: Same here. Never been shot, but I did suffer a dog bite to lip and cheek that required over 50 stitches to close. My face was completely numb for over an hour, didn’t even nèed anesthetic for the stitching. I could barely feel it.
jl
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Baud’s base will think he is talking about bubble gum comic strips. It won’t be easy.
Mnemosyne
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
You can’t keep your voters in a frenzy of hate and fear unless you make them afraid and fearful all the time. Having trigger locks and biometrics would reduce people’s fears of their guns possibly being used against them, so they might only buy one or two guns for home defense.
But if you can make it difficult for those people to get trigger locks or tell them that trigger locks mean they won’t be able to use their gun when a
black thugzombie busts in, they’ll buy more guns so they can keep one close at hand at all times.trollhattan
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Has McGargle chimed in to suggest rushing the hotel?
“Bring suction cups, and balsamic vinegar in one of these nice stainless dispensers.”
Wjs
@Adam L Silverman: oh god. No, Dakota, no!
Repatriated
@Repatriated: And the other problem is that if law enforcement has them, they’ll be used, and there’s no guarantee that strict rules of engagement will be adhered to.
Mike J
@Repatriated: Billy Gibson’s last book, The Peripheral, featured a returned vet and his sister who made their livings doing telepresence security with drones.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
The way I put is is that the cringing cowardice and fears of the ammosexual community leads to a collection of uniquely deadly devices which are destroying lives, and the only response is “thoughts ‘n prayers”.
Mnemosyne
@Repatriated:
IIRC, that’s pretty much how they killed the Dallas shooter — they were able to send in a robot with a bomb. If they hadn’t, he had enough ammunition and supplies with him to hold them off for a couple of days at least.
aimai
@germy: I love the way NPR, before I turned it off, referred to his aggressive normality by offering the unimpeachable testimony of the gun dealers who sold him the guns. Nothing will change until we manage to pass a law making gun dealers personally criminally liable for crimes committed by guns they had control of and then lost/sold.
germy
@aimai: I caught that. The gundealer insisted he was a regular dude who came in a few hundred times.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Gin & Tonic:
The roots of the tree of liberty must be watered constantly with the blood of children, significant others, extended family members and innocent bystanders lest the irrational fears and paranoid fantasies of candy-assed, camo-clad, tobacco spitting goobers cannot be assuaged through the purchase of destructive arsenals with the money that should be going to the trailer rent.
jl
I think I mentioned this before, but I know a guy who was going gun nut survivalist but was smart enough to think things through and change his ways. Was at a survivalist gun nut convention, and there was a bad accident and noticed that everyone panicked, ran around like chickens with their heads cut off, and no one knew any first aid.
And he thought, ‘What kind of survivalists don’t even know first aid? Why don’t I know any first aid?’. So took some first aid and first responder and disaster response courses, and he saned up (at least enough to keep him from going off the deep end). I wish there were more people like that.
Edit: he’s no longer a second amendment absolutist, so his voting got saner. Sometimes an seemingly small adjustment in attitude can make a difference.
Doug R
@aimai: Something similar to the overserving/drunk driving liability laws.
trollhattan
@aimai: @germy:
Spoken in his best “Don’t sue me” voice.
Repatriated
@Mike J: It’s been a long time since I’ve read his work, alas.
Matt McIrvin
@germy: There are also shooter videogames–even the superficially very realistic ones usually have absurd mechanics designed to make the game playable and fun, and there are all sorts of industry conventions bearing no relation to reality.
I know jack squat about guns but even I can spot some of this stuff. Magic magazines with which it’s somehow easy to reload one bullet, sniper rifles that ignore wind and gravity, and shotguns with an effective range of four feet. And everyone is absurdly tough and able to take multiple hits before being seriously inconvenienced.
Some games, particularly online multiplayer ones, don’t even implement friendly fire, because it enables trolls who deliberately kill members of their own team.
Mnemosyne
@jl:
I suspect that the two things were strongly related: he had anxiety issues that he was trying to assuage by learning “survivalist” techniques, but he was only able to control his anxiety by learning specific techniques to help in a medical emergency rather than just preparing for a random, unspecified emergency.
jl
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: ” roots of the tree of liberty must be watered constantly with the blood ” People need to read the whole Jefferson quote, which continues to say that the waterers needed attention from the law after any blood was shed, no matter how just they viewed their cause. Jefferson was not celebrating blood lust in the defense of liberty, but discussing the balancing act that was required to preserve both liberty and public safety and order.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: I didn’t take it as an attack. At one level he or she is correct: this should be self evident. Unfortunately it isn’t. So while people here may have figured it out, it still should be pointed out in a way that is on a front page somewhere.
Repatriated
@Mnemosyne: Good point. I had forgotten about that incident, and was going off memories of someone having mounted a stripped-down pistol to a quad
jl
@Mnemosyne: Also, he’s not a dope with not in over his head with his own male insecurity and aggression issues.
Adam L Silverman
I’m off to the gym. You all have fun!
Amaranthine RBG
A crowd of country music fans (if you can call Aldean “country”), probably quite a few with concealed carry permits, probably some alcohol … I was surprised that there weren’t additional casualties from concealed carry folks given that there were several minutes of sustained fire.
Were there metal detectors at the show, maybe?
Also, as I mentioned the other day, it was disturbing to watch the videos of LEOs and others yelling for people to get down ans seeing scores of people crouching on the ground which was exactly the wrong thing to do in this situation. No way to know it at the time, of course.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: I believe that we anonymous commenters should have sufficient situational awareness to avoid jokes about mental masturbation. It just seems good form to me. I believe it is, in fact, an internet tradition.
sm*t cl*de
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
They’re arms dealers. Their business model depends on danger and fear. They want you all to be scared of your neighbours’ arsenal, and buying your own arsenal so you can shoot your neighbour first.
swbarnes2
@aimai: I think the concern there is that gun dealers will decide never to sell to, say, black guys, ever, and they’ll claim its for liability reasons. What you’d need is a gun registry, to know if someone is stockpiling, but we can’t have that for …reasons.
trollhattan
@swbarnes2:
“Big Bubba’s Gunnery, proud armorer to the New Black Panthers since 2008” has a nice ring to it.
Our paper figured out there are the same number of federally licensed gun dealers as there are Starbucks in the metroplex.
Mike in NC
I swear there was just a mention of Paddock on the TV news as being “the vegan gunman”. That must explain it all, right?
Unknown known
@Mike J: More to the point, imagine 500 people pulling out their rifles, and peppering the general vicinity of the 32nd floor of the hotel with small arms fire. The body count of innocent hotel guests could have shot past 60 that way too.
But at least those would have been innocent civilians who died RESPONSIBLY.
Nelle
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: Do we know that Russia is not running the NRA now?
aimai
@swbarnes2: 100 percent legal liability for any crime committed by a gun that has passed through your hands would end gun dealership. I really don’t care if gun dealers refuse to sell guns to black guys–an absurd concern–if they refuse to sell guns to anyone. Plenty of crimes are committed by white guys (evidently) and I would include accidental shootings which has a multiplier effect.
Mnemosyne
@Nelle:
You may think you’re joking, but you’re not.
debbie
I’ve heard that it took 10 suitcases worth of stuff to get all of his weaponry, etc. into the room. Did that raise no alarm bells with any hotel employees, particularly the ones who lugged them to his room? My guess is he wasn’t dressed like someone who was traveling enough to justify 10 suitcases. I know we’re talking Vegas, but still, someone’s Spidey sense should have been tingling at the sight of this guy.
P.S. Yay, Jordan!
Ian G.
Thanks, Adam. It’s nice to see reason in the usually idiotic discussion of guns in this country. I’m so fucking tired of the tri-corner hat cosplay idiots and the 2nd amendment fetish.
Karen
@Adam L Silverman: http://humansarefree.com/2017/10/10-things-that-just-dont-add-up-about.html
someone posted this on my wall, have no clue how much is true. Especially, since my gun experiences are all deer hunting and target practice (sorry, forgot about vermin shooting with 22)
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
I wonder if there’s some way to destroy the NRA by legal challenges or costs or something. Of course, I’ve wondered that about FOX too.
patrick II
Not to mention that firing supressive fire with a rifle towards a hotel that has other guests carries its own risk. Rifle bullets will punch through walls.
Patricia Kayden
“Get small” is Senator Thune’s advice on how to avoid getting shot if another madman decides to spray people down with bullets in a few days. If any of you figure out how to get so small that bullets can’t hit you, please let me know.
Repatriated
@Nelle: Running it? Why would they need to?
I would be surprised if they weren’t supporting them in some way, though.
(Edit: corrected double negative.)
Uncle Ebeneezer
Adam have you seen Tower? Watched it yesterday and it was very good.
Jack the Second
And in this dystopian fantasy where the crowd is armed and shooting back at the hotel at large, and you are an innocent, responsibly armed guest of the hotel taking fire from a crowd outside, obviously the correct thing for you to do is start shooting back–
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with these people?
Arclite
Some of the band members had firearms nearby. But they made a conscious decision not to get them, as they might be mistaken by law enforcement as attackers and shot by accident.
piratedan
@Unknown known: and then the MGM corp couldave dropped a nice big bill on those shooters for windows replacement….
trollhattan
@debbie: It’s assumed he checked in with a normal bag count and brought the others up over the course of several days. I’m guessing he hung the “do not disturb” tag on the door unless there are a dozen housekeepers stacked in the closet.
A Ghost to Most
@tractarian: Actually, I found it interesting. Thanks, Adam.
This is a full-service blog. Different strokes?
Nelle
@Mnemosyne: Actually, I wasn’t joking. Who benefits from this division and chaos? Beside the obvious financial benefit to the gun dealers, the zealotry goes far beyond that so I appreciate the article very much.
The only way to change and survive is to monetize some aspect of this. Could we have a readout on the financial benefit of an insurance industry that covers gun ownership? Of mandatory education and licensing? Surely some entrepreneur can see the big bucks in that and lobby for it. But the absence of that suggests that there is another purpose, like those nesting dolls. Then add to that targeted social media….. I suspect that while Americans have been shopping and playing video games and amusing themselves to death, the whole damn democracy has been riddled with opponents thinking about 25 years ahead of us. I’d credit Republicans with the deviousness of it all, except I think they are, at most, complicit dupes.
Repatriated
@debbie: A couple pushing a shopping cart full of guns passed unnoticed in Las Vegas a few years back, too. Ended up assassinating a few police officers.
trollhattan
@Arclite:
What a weird detail, the band was packing heat?
patrick II
@Patricia Kayden:
The movie Ant-man describes how, but it takes a lot of science and stuff.
Mike J
@Patricia Kayden: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPgurvq6MIU
Amaranthine RBG
@debbie:
Latest I’ve heard is that he was in hotel for 2-3 days before shooting and had a do not disturb sign on his door.
There are multiple entrances. Easy to wheel in 2-3 suitcases at time over a few days and not raise any suspicions.
I’ve been on video shoots at hotels before where we wheeled in a dozen large pelican hard cases carrying cameras/lighting/computers/screens/ etc all at once and nobody batted an eye.
Bill Arnold
@Repatriated:
Do you really want to live in a society where the police regularly deploy lethally armed drones, for e.g. errrm event security? (Eventually autonomous because … safety of all good citizens.)
Personally, I’d feel a bit uncomfortable attending e.g. a protest march if such drones were buzzing overhead, with twitchy operators, some (because there are always some) looking for excuses to prevent violence with a quick preemptive kill. More uncomfortable than if police snipers were in place, basically, because of the increased empathic distance (Drones, Information Technology, and Distance: Mapping The Moral Epistemology Of Remote Fighting. For example.). (Eventually, “mistakes will be made”, enemies of the state targeted, armed drones hacked. Etc.)
Advocating for qualitative increases in lethal police capabilities is wrong, IMO (if one likes freedom); better to advocate for gun control measures to make this sort of incident less likely in the future.
Mike in NC
I recently was told several people in our community have gotten or are seeking concealed carry permits. We live on a fucking golf course!
Davebo
@Mnemosyne:
I do, and I don’t own any guns though I did in my youth.
The term “semi-automatic weapons” covers a wide range of firearms most of which are perfectly legitimate for target shooting, hunting etc. The assault weapons bill did a fair job of narrowing that down though at times it got silly.
Start with the obvious. No one needs a magazine that holds 30 rounds. No one needs a FN SCAR or a Heckler & Koch G36 or any number of blatantly obvious assault weapons. But outlawing a Remington 1100 shotgun is never going to fly and it is a semi automatic weapon.
Fair Economist
I’m sure it’s not too infrequent for hotel guests to bring in lots of bags for weird purposes and the hotel probably has a policy of not asking about what’s in a guest’s bags. It is Vegas, after all, and this hasn’t been a problem in the past.
Mike J
@Davebo: It’s funny how the ammosexuals always say “assault rifle” just means it has some scary looking black plastic, but those are always the guns the mass shooters use.
Jack the Second
@Bill Arnold: What about unarmed, armored drones that just wait for gunfire and move into lines of fire to intercept bullets? Maybe basically flying sandbags. Put a few hundred in the air, any bullet hitting them isn’t hitting a person.
Davebo
@tractarian: You obviously get off in strange ways!
But it’s a perfectly normal lifestyle choice!
Patricia Kayden
@Mike in NC: This is a pretty paranoid country so I’m not surprised at all that people living in a nice neighborhood feel the need to get weapons. My neighbor has a gun but I assume it’s just for hunting because we live in a pretty quiet cul-de-sac. And then you have deranged people like Dana Loesch scaring people with stupid ads to get them off their couches and into gun shops.
debbie
@trollhattan:
@Repatriated:
@Amaranthine RBG:
I’m sure you all know more than I do about these things, but I’m still surprised no one took note of a schlub walking in (several times) with luggage, bypassing check-in, and heading straight for the elevators. It’s just hard to believe no one would have noticed. Where the hell was Security?
joel hanes
@germy:
I was like “Wait, deer can recognize firearms now?
In areas where crows are hunted, crows absolutely can.
I’ve seen this happen.
I’ve heard anecdotal evidence that geese can too, but have no experience.
About the perceptivity of deer, I have no idea at all.
jl
@Karen: I think the writer has made up his mind that it was some kind of false flag operation. Why did ISIS claim responsibility? They have claimed credit for a number of attacks that they had little or nothing to do with. It’s cheap PR for them. The writer doesn’t seem to know that the shooter rigged his room with surveillance cameras and shot a hotel guard who tried to respond, and the cops decided to wait for a SWAT team to arrive. And doesn’t seem to know that the shooter was a regular gambling high roller who camped out for weeks in high roller hotell suites and had lots of perks from comps.
So, sure there are lots of questions to be answered, but I think half of his ‘stupid questions’ are in fact stupid, or at least ignorant (edit: or highly motivated and tendentious).
joel hanes
@Davebo:
there are lots of gun owners who support logical gun control measures.
I have been one for many years.
But I’m going home next week, and I’m going to take all Dad’s and my guns up to Cabela’s and sell them. I’m done.
Raven
When my sis and I were kids my old man would take us up into the Puente HIlls “plunking “ with 22’s. I remember him getting us under a piece of corrugated roofing hung over some big rocks. He started bombing us with rocks a yelling “stay where you are and you are safe”! At the time I just thought he was being my crazy old man. Years later when I learned the details about him being pinned down by Japanese machine gun fire on Corregidor I gained a better appreciation for what he was driving at.
Arclite
Also we need to be thankful that the Republicans suppressor law hasn’t passed yet. The gunshots alerted people to the attack. Who knows how many people he might have shot before people realized it.
A Ghost to Most
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I’ve had a pistol shoved up my nose, by an AF police during an alert in SAC HQ. That will focus you.
A similar feeling can be achieved by fucking up on a ledge road.
Davebo
@Mike J: I’d say there’s more to it than that. Flash suppressors, portability etc.
I’m certainly no expert on this stuff but it goes back to the porn rule. You know it when you see it.
Raven
Adam, what impact would a silencer have inter range and rate of fire of an Ar or AK?
Davebo
@joel hanes:
Imagine all the rods, reels and tackle you could buy! Then again, from the 32nd floor you could probably sidearm cast a treble hook with a heavy weight a good 200 yards giving someone a serious barb injury!
Patricia Kayden
@Davebo:
When do they start voting like that though? Perhaps those of us who see the need for gun control measures need to vote for politicians who promise to make that a priority if elected. Even with the shootings in Las Vegas, there doesn’t appear to be any outrage directed at Republican politicians for their recalcitrant position on gun control.
Davebo
@Raven: That is an awesome story!
Davebo
@Patricia Kayden: Lots of them do. I certainly know a lot of people that do including people with fairly sizable collections (mostly antique guns).
As for outrage after Vegas, it’s been driven into the ground but if 20 dead white 6 and 7 year olds couldn’t do it Vegas isn’t about to.
Amaranthine RBG
@joel hanes:
If the guns have any value at all, look at selling them on gunbroker or auctionarms instead.
Cabelas pays shit prices for used guns – at most 1/2 of the resell value.
SiubhanDuinne
@Fair Economist:
It’s quite possible the hotel doesn’t even know, at least in properties where you can park your car and take an elevator to your floor without ever having to see a hotel employee after check-in. Keep the “Do Not Disturb” sign engaged and you’re good for days on end.
jl
Forgot to say that I think a sad commentary on our news analysis and pundits that late night comics Kimmel, Colbert and O’Brien had more pointed commentary on the shooting than vapid hand wringing I’ve seen on most corporate news and analysis shows on TV.
SiubhanDuinne
@Raven:
Wow.
Davebo
@Jack the Second:
And I was sure Ronald Reagan was dead! Way to go Gipper!
SiubhanDuinne
@debbie:
My #145 for a possible explanation.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
just in case you thought there was some aspect of a reality show that hadn’t seeped into this administration
makes me think less of Mattis, who I consider to be the least bad of a barrel of bad apples, that he would ally himself with that shitbag Mnuchin
Davebo
@Patricia Kayden:
According to Steve Martin there’s a pill you can take….
Jim, Foolish Literalist
and OT I will max out to the next campaign of Eric Schneiderman if he reopens the case against Fredo and Princess Tackycrap
trollhattan
@Mike in NC: George Zimmerman is available to head up the neighborhood watch.
Ruviana
@Davebo: Thought that was Grace Slick.
Amaranthine RBG
@debbie:
I – obviously – don’t know what happened here but his getting guns into the hotel was absolutely the least surprising thing to me about this story.
When I drive to go hunting I usually don’t leave my firearms in the vehicles at night and I’ve wheeled large gun cases through hotel lobbies in several states and never had anyone say boo. And these were conspicuous cases that basically scream “I have a gun inside.” It would be easy enough to put several guns in a discreet case and bring in 4 or 5 at a time.
And, again, if its true he was there for 2-3 days he could just bring in a couple of cases a time
trollhattan
@debbie:
While I’ve never been anywhere near it Mandalay Bay seems enormous, with 3,309 rooms. This guy was a cas1no rat and knew how to blend in.
Davebo
Via OTB, these numbers surprised me somewhat.
Just 3 percent of American adults own half of the nation’s firearms, according to the results of a Harvard-Northeastern survey of 4,000 gun owners.
The study found that 22 percent of American adults say they personally own a firearm.
That said, I believe there is a significant number of voters out there who, while not owning any firearms, are very supportive of 2nd Amdt rights. Those are the people who I think could be swayed to reasonable restrictions.
SatanicPanic
@Amaranthine RBG: Why would you not call Aldean country? His music sucks, but that’s hardly rare in country music.
Davebo
@Ruviana: ;0)
Alice doesn’t live here anymore.
You know how the police know if you’re small? They take a balloon and if you can crawl into it, you’re small.
dr. luba
@Gin & Tonic: I had my hand sliced open by the surgeon I was assisting many years back. It took a while for the pain to kick in. But once it did……
A Ghost to Most
@Patricia Kayden: There are several gun owners right here that vote for sensible gun control. I’m one, and have been since I could vote.
Civilian guns have legitimate uses.
Assault rifles? Only really useful for killing people. Should be illegal.
I personally have no use for handguns, and have never owned one.
30 years ago, my father offered to buy me a life membership in the NRA. I turned him down flat.
Karen
@joel hanes: I know that older deer know what gun fire means, friends back in WI have farm and allow hunting in back woods. Nearly all year deer make attempts to “dine” in one of their gardens, but come hunting season they disappear; the only ones who still show up are the young bucks and does.
Amaranthine RBG
@SatanicPanic:
I don’t know that much about him, but from what little I’ve heard he is one of those bro-country, cooler in the back of my muddy pickup with my girl in painted jeans by my side, driving past tractors and barbed wire, bla bla bla guys. That crap ain’t country.
I realize my definition might be a bit idiosyncratic.
trollhattan
Holy crap, this detail is new to me.
So he went country due to timing?
Amaranthine RBG
@trollhattan:
The balanced and insightful theorists over at Infowars have developed an impressive framework of ideas explaining how he was intentionally targeting country music fans because Trump.
NorthLeft12
@Wapiti: Your Dad is not only crusty, he is damn observant. I understand there have been around two hundred and seventy mass shootings in the US in 2017. That works out to about one a day.
That is one scary piece of information, and should even make any gun humper pause.
SatanicPanic
@Amaranthine RBG: yeah. I mean, I define Country as just pop for a certain type of white person. bad rapping, disco, jazz, rock, whatever, if it’s a country singer doing it, it’s country. Doesn’t make it good. I try country radio every now and then, and man does it suck. And I am not someone with refined taste at all. I particularly don’t like all the political messages from these morons.
Gin & Tonic
@trollhattan:
I’ve been there for conventions and stuff. I once timed myself – it took 20 minutes to get from my hotel room to the conference room I needed to be in. I walk pretty briskly, but I never left the hotel.
Bill Arnold
@trollhattan:
Sheesh, now I’m wondering if dice[1] were involved. Clearly (OK apparently) seriously premeditated though.
[1] or another method of making random choices.
Corner Stone
@debbie: Front Sight (a firearms training facility) is right outside LV in Pahrump, NV. They have a sheet of guidance for anyone staying in LV and attending classes at FS. Not to mention, LV has many large Gun Shows and conventions all through the year.
Gin & Tonic
@Corner Stone: Which one is the range where they let a 9-year-old girl fire an Uzi and the recoil caused her to swing and kill the rangemaster?
Karen
Vegas holds what is known as the “worlds biggest gun show” and it is still set to happen. So even if he had taken all those gun cases past the front desk they would have just figured he was there for a gun show.
Amaranthine RBG
@SatanicPanic:
Have you tried Jamey Johnson, Chris Stapleton, Farewell Angelina, Angalena Presley, Sturgill Simpson and Jason Isbell?
Good music and, for the most part, sane in their political opinions.
Corner Stone
@Gin & Tonic: Bellagio, Caesars, MGM and a few others on the Strip are all the same. I thought I was going to die one time trying to make it back and forth to the convention area at Caesars. They killed wifi in the convention hall and I had to go back to my room to work.
A Ghost to Most
@SatanicPanic:
There’s Nashville country, which is crap, and then there’s alternative country, which is where rock-and-roll went and hid.
Patricia Kayden
@A Ghost to Most: It’s fascinating how the NRA used to be a middle of the road org which supported sensible gun control measures. Now it’s run by Rightwing, gun-rights extremists. A competing group needs to be created to challenge their hold on gun owners — one which can lobby Congress for gun control legislation.
Mnemosyne
@joel hanes:
Crows are very, very smart. They are one of the reasons that scientists can no longer say that primates are the only tool-using animals.
Corner Stone
@Gin & Tonic: I’m not sure. I’ve never visited a gun range in LV but I remember that tragedy for the little child.
JustRuss
@Davebo:
I’ve seen my brother-in-law hit two clays consistently with a pump shotgun when we were skeet shooting, what’s the point of a semi-auto? Genuinely curious, seems to take most of the sport out of it when you can let that much lead fly.
A Ghost to Most
@Patricia Kayden: I grew up deep in the NRA culture, and I’ve thought they were crazy bastards since the 70s
Harlon Carter changed The NRA..
Corner Stone
@JustRuss: I routinely outshot many of my compadres with my 20ga Remington 870 Wingmaster vs their Remington 1100 12ga. But the 1100 (the older ones, the newer ones are crap) is a beautiful piece of machinery.
Miss Bianca
WaPo story on the shooting – two fast buddies who only happened to meet that night. Get out your hankies – it’s so easy for a story like this to sound melodramatic or exploitative, but this one is just sad, sad, sad.
Mnemosyne
@Patricia Kayden:
I posted this a few days ago, but the NRA changed in 1977 and started pushing their current agenda.
@A Ghost to Most:
My dad bragged until the day he died that when he sent me to a hunter education course when I was 10 years old, I outscored all of the adult men in the room with me. (And I was a pretty good shot with a .22, to boot.)
Of course, this is because I actually paid attention when the instructor was telling us about gun safety and how not to die of hypothermia, unlike the adult men who were goofing off and not paying attention so they could get back to playing with their toys.
Philbert
@Tuna: I see the 7/16 Texas ambush of police was in…Mesquite, Texas. That is one of the places the shooter had lived for awhile.
SiubhanDuinne
@Corner Stone:
I do too. It wasn’t all that many years ago AFAIR. Such a pointless, preventable tragedy. It infuriated me then, and it’s infuriating me now just to remember (not at the child; I wouldn’t think of blaming her).
joel hanes
@Karen:
In areas in which they’re hunted, crows don’t need to hear gunfire; they recognize by sight that a long gun is being carried, and give the person carrying a wide berth, while ignoring unarmed people.
trollhattan
O/T Is this a winnable seat?
daverave
@Amaranthine RBG
I’ve somehow come to like Stapleton, maybe because he’s got some rock roots in there somewhere, but my Pandora station keeps trying to foist other country music on me and I almost always push the “next” arrow when they do.
SatanicPanic
@Amaranthine RBG: I’ve listened to some Sturgill and some Isbell. I elike some Kacey Musgraves. Honestly even Brad Paisley isn’t that bad, well, sometimes. I’m more into pop though.
Corner Stone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Anyone who would tie their little red wagon to Mnuchin is not worth saving. GTFO.
mike in dc
@aimai: Alternatively, a fully-funded ATF could monitor and track crime guns enough that, in the case of FFLs selling or “losing” too many guns used in crimes, their license could be suspended pending appeal. They could also refine screening procedures and training for FFLs with regard to straw purchases, spotting “disturbing” individuals, reporting suspicious bulk purchases, etc. Don’t need to sue them to drive them out of business. Just tighten up regulation and monitoring. There’s a reason the GOP congress underfunds the ATF every year.
Mnemosyne
So at what point do we get to start saying that the Republican governor of Nevada has blood on his hands for blocking a voter initiative that would have strengthened Nevada’s background checks?
Corner Stone
@SiubhanDuinne: No, I remember being furious at everyone who put her in the situation and now she would have it on her for the rest of her life. I’m sorry anyone lost their life but I was heartbroken it involved an innocent.
trollhattan
@Gin & Tonic:
IIRC that was across the border in Arizona and the parents had taken the kid there during their Vegas vacation, so she could have some machine gun fun. Such a wretched event.
A Ghost to Most
@Mnemosyne: That’s pretty cool. Knowing how to use a rifle properly is a skill.
My dad was difficult, but he was obsessed with gun safety. He also built and shot cannons and mortars, so attention to details really mattered.
Corner Stone
@mike in dc: ATF is not exactly a blameless actor here. We need a higher order of laws and regulation that is consistent.
Corner Stone
If I punched the guy in the CA Technologies commercial in the face, is there a jury anywhere in America that would convict me?
Patricia Kayden
@Mike J: @patrick II: Ha!!
Amaranthine RBG
@daverave:
Yeah, that drives me up the fucking wall. I will put on Stapleton or Johnson “radio” and within 4 or 5 songs up will pop some crappy bro-country.
The algorithm is pretty good when you select Mingus or Getz or Coleman.
I don’t get it.
MomSense
Can we also talk about how a major tourist hub like Las Vegas does not have adequate medical/trauma infrastructure? How many other major cities are similarly underserved?
You have to figure that a place like Las Vegas is on the short list of potential terrorist targets. What if this had been a dirty bomb?
Corner Stone
@joel hanes: Crows are smart. They got radar.
Patricia Kayden
@Mnemosyne: Thanks for that link. I had just read a 2016 Vanity Fair article about how drastically the NRA had changed since its creation. It won’t even budge an inch on its stance. Unbelievable.
A Ghost to Most
@SatanicPanic:
Love Isbell and DBT. Sturgill Simpson’s 2nd and 3rd albums were excellent. My tastes run to the crack between country and rock (think of country-era Rolling Stones), and talented pedal steel guitarists.
Karen
@joel hanes: crows are extremely intelligent, tool using birds; they take less time than any other bird to figure out if the figure in garden is real or fake. they can also be real pests, grandpa swore that they could figure out the gate locks and get into places he had protected
Davebo
@JustRuss: Less recoil and of course, no pumping.
Davebo
@Corner Stone: A 12 gauge is a lot of gun for skeet/trap shooting.
Amaranthine RBG
@Patricia Kayden:
They are emblematic of the absurd polarization that’s happened over the past 20 or 30 years.
Just like coal versus environment / unions v. “right to work” / “pro life” versus “pro choice” / etc. It’s all just symptom of the fucking winner take all mentality.
Our political system is broken.
debbie
@SiubhanDuinne:
Thanks, hadn’t thought of a parking garage.
A Ghost to Most
@Corner Stone: Imagine if corvids had opposable thumbs.
Amaranthine RBG
@A Ghost to Most:
Yeah, of those I mentioned Isbell is my favorite. He’s done some great stuff already and I think he has the potential to be a major artist.
Battling and overcoming an addiction can hollow you out or it can turn you into a complete person and I think he’s in the second camp.
I saw him, his wife and good musician Amanda Shires, and John Prine 4 times in three separate venues. Fantastic show. You could just feel their affection for one another. Hope they last.
Corner Stone
@Davebo: I was responding to a comment about skeet but not actually mentioning I didn’t mean skeet as the target.
Davebo
@MomSense: Define adequate.
A Ghost to Most
@Amaranthine RBG:
Not just our political system. The entire economic system is based on unchecked greed. Quick: think of an organization that is not corrupt.
debbie
@Gin & Tonic:
They were talking on NPR this afternoon about this shooting range on the Strip. They have machine guns. Could this have been it? They seem to cater to all kinds of parties.
Amaranthine RBG
@Davebo:
It’s the most common gauge I see out at the range for those sports.
The more experienced shooters will often shoot a 20 in place of the 12 and 16 even when they are shooting multi-gauge matches but most middling shooters will shoot a 12.
In my experience, anyway.
Mnemosyne
Dianne Feinstein is introducing a Senate bill to ban the kits you can use to make your semi-automatic the next best thing to a full automatic.
Prepare for the trolls to descend on us screeching about how preventing people from illegally modifying their guns is infringing on their FRRRREEEEEDDDUUUUMMMMBBBBBB!
MomSense
@Davebo
There is only one level 1 trauma center in the state. There are some horror stories of volunteers putting injured people in trucks and taking them to hospitals that couldn’t handle the volume.
A Ghost to Most
@Amaranthine RBG:
Go back to his early stuff with DBT and then the 400 Unit. He’s always been a great songwriter (try “Streetlights”), but he’s even better sober.
I’ve heard multiple Isbell members say “Don’t say nothin’ around Jason, it will end up in a song”.
Mnemosyne
@debbie:
I think people are correctly remembering that the actual death happened in Arizona, because the Nevada place wouldn’t allow a child to shoot a machine gun. Wisely, as it turned out.
GOVCHRIS1988
@Amaranthine RBG:
Not surprising. I mean, its the same DAMN song. Listen to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTRSLs3On8s
debbie
@Mnemosyne:
You’re right.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Davebo: When the police say, “Hey are you small?” No, I’m tall.
Davebo
@MomSense: I realize that but that level 1 center is in Las Vegas. Given the population I’m not surprised there’s only 1 statewide. Then again I’m spoiled where I live having the greatest medical center on the planet.
Amaranthine RBG
@GOVCHRIS1988:
Heh – that’s funny. I always thought that they all sounded like the same damn song since I was getting old no longer one of those “hep cats”.
Davebo
@MomSense: Even here in Houston having over 400 casualties all at once would be a stress on the local emergency care.
It’s like Harvey. Unprecedented.
SiubhanDuinne
@dr. luba:
I did one of those really stupid things once of sticking my hand all the way down inside a glass to scrub off the crusted milk on the bottom. Of course the glass totally imploded and sliced my index knuckle down to the bone. I’ll never forget that out-of-time-and-space moment of looking at the whitewhitewhite of my knuckle bone, even before the capillaries remembered to start bleeding. No pain for the moment, just amazed bemusement. Then the bleeding started with a hey-nonny-nonny, the excruciating pain kicked in, and I somehow managed to drive myself to the hospital ER. Nineteen stitches to patch it up as I recall, and several weeks to get any kind of mobility back. On a clear day, these 35+ years later, I can still see the white scar if I squint just right.
Matt McIrvin
@Patricia Kayden: They should get Steve Martin; he’s an expert on getting small.
Medicine Man
Thanks for the perspective, Adam. Always good to hear from you at times like this. Wish it weren’t so often.
Steve in the ATL
@Mike in NC:
Lawyer friend had a case where a couple of roofers attacked a foursome with roofing hammers after the golfers asked the roofers to pause their hammering while they teed off. Did serious damage to the golfers. They could have stopped the attack if they’d been carrying assault rifles.
Game, set, match, libtard!
sharl
As with Twitler, but more welcome and funny, there is a @dril tweet for everything:
In a just world Bloomberg would be paying @dril for this kind of quality content. Instead they pay Megan McArdle, who in the aftermath of the mass killing of a bunch of first graders at Sandy Hook, had this fine suggestion:
Oooo-kay. You people out there with toddler-aged children? – you need to raise your children accordingly. I dunno, maybe ISIS or Al Qaeda puts out guide books for training child suicide bombers, the contents of which can be tweaked appropriately.
What a world…
Steve in the ATL
@Davebo:
So guns are concentrated like wealth. And neither of those is a good thing.
Corner Stone
@Steve in the ATL: They had irons in their bag. Why didn’t they beat the roofers into comas?
Steve in the ATL
@Corner Stone: they grabbed their 1-irons and couldn’t hit anything with them (only amusing to golfers)
Corner Stone
@Steve in the ATL: If they had a 1 Iron in their bag they deserve whatever happened to them.
Bill Arnold
@Karen:
Birds have primate-like numbers of neurons in the forebrain (June 13, 2016, full paper)
So, yeah. There are reasons that Crows, Ravens (and some of the rest of the Corvidae) have that reputation, and for other related lore. (Spooky!)
See also Neuronal factors determining high intelligence (Jan 5, 2016, full paper)
Origuy
@MomSense: Most of the Strip is not in the city of Las Vegas. It is in an unincorporated area called Paradise. So the tax revenue from the casinos, restaurants, etc. doesn’t go to Las Vegas, they go to Clark County. I don’t know the politics of the area, but I can imagine that the county commissioners are more conservative than the city council.
Hoodie
This type of argument is the worst way to attack gun nut idiocy. Isn’t the real lesson that armed response by individual, uncoordinated and untrained armed civilians is very likely to be ineffective and therefore the first choice is always to run away? Even trained cops get shot and killed fairly frequently when making traffic stops. In this case, the security guard that approached the shooter alone was taken out, and they could not get to the shooter until a coordinated SWAT team attacked his position. A squad of Marines doesn’t attack a sniper in a random manner, irrespective of John Waynish bullshit that is put forth in movies. They typically execute a planned series of maneuvers and lay down suppressing fire to gain a firing position to take out the sniper. And, of course, they can use heavy weapons that you can’t use on the strip in LV. This is the only way the Second Amendment makes any sense – the founders got that self-defense is really more a matter of joining your community in self-defense, in a militia.
This is the problem with arguing with gun nuts on these grounds. A lot of us are attracted to this particular event because it makes their arguments seem even more ludicrous and infantile, but the fact is that their argument are always ludicrous and infantile. What I imagine will happen is that they will settle on saying this is just a one-in-a-million event that wasn’t amenable to one of the multitude of idiotic prophylactic prevention measures they routinely trot out (e.g., tighter immigration control, more police surveillance, more mental health monitoring, etc.). In other words, it will be “shit happens, it’s just like a car accident.” It is not like a car accident in any, way shape or manner, because cars have a main use other than intentionally killing multitudes of people. Allowing people to have weapons like this is no different from letting them carry dynamite around.
If someone manages to protect themselves with a personal firearm, it’s mostly because they’re lucky. A lot of the people at that concert were probably drunk or high. At other mass shooting events, the victims were engaged in other pursuits and in no way prepared to respond to an armed aggressor. Concertgoers, commuters and shoppers aren’t a squad on patrol. Most people who have weapons in their homes will not be able to use them effectively. I have a colleague who has five kids under the age of 12 and she keeps a handgun at her home. She assures me it’s safe because she keeps it locked up on a gun safe. Fat lot of good that will do if there’s a home invasion. I love her, but she’s crazy. The only reason to have gun safe at home is to store hunting rifles or shotguns that you use for sport.
Ruckus
@jl:
Adrenaline is a wonderful drug. I have personally been hit by a truck, literally head on, closing speed about 40mph. It didn’t actually hurt, in that I saw it coming and was relaxed, because I have been trained, and because of adrenaline. Now between 5 and 10 minutes later, as the adrenaline wore off, I hurt like you can’t believe. I could barely move at all. It might help you to understand that I was wearing a riding suit and helmet, the body damage was soft tissue and a broken thumb. If you are in any type of fight or flight situation and your system is working properly, you will be loaded with adrenaline almost instantaneously, how long that lasts and remains effective will vary.
Ruckus
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
That it does.
Ruckus
@Davebo:
But outlawing a Remington 1100 shotgun is never going to fly and it is a semi automatic weapon.
And the magazine holds how many rounds? Four is the answer.
Ruckus
@joel hanes:
Unless geese have gotten a lot dumber in the last 50 yrs, they do.
I’ve seen them fly very high, outside of range and dive for ground within feet of crossing the fence into a refuge. Where they wonder around making noises that sounds like laughter.
Adam L Silverman
@Karen: Sorry for the delay. Just got back in. That’s all garbage. Either crap sources/links to crap sources. Or BS phrasing to make someone think something is unusual or out of place or messed up that isn’t.
Adam L Silverman
@patrick II: Yep, without a doubt.
Adam L Silverman
@Uncle Ebeneezer: I haven’t seen it, but I’m familiar with it.
Corner Stone
@Ruckus: There is not a magazine for the 1100 that I have ever seen. The tube can hold eight depending on the model but mainly holds five with one in the chamber.
Adam L Silverman
@Repatriated: Right after they left the Bunkerville standoff at the Bundy Ranch.
Adam L Silverman
@Raven: On one of the guns with a bump fire, the suppressor would have gotten so hot so fast it would have melted down and caused the gun to malfunction pretty quickly. These things work best with subsonic ammo. Less powder, lower pressures, less velocity. So less range and fewer foot pounds of force.
Tom DeVries
Since we won’t or can’t touch the 2nd amendment, I’m guessing we (as a society, meaning Congress) will compensate by serious damage to the 1st, 4th & 5th. Lotsa searches, lotsa limits on gatherings, lotsa compelled testimony.
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: Possibly. That is one of the unanswered questions.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: Given that the implementation has been blocked by Nevada Attorney General Adam Laxalt, I’d say never. Feel free to direct your ire against Laxalt though.
Bill Arnold
@Tom DeVries:
This is a choice that (as a society) get to make.
e.g. (not entirely joking as a meme to provoke thought) is the 2nd Amendment really more important than the 1st Amendment?
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: This is what your 3 wood is for. You’ve got range on the guys swinging the hammers. There’s a reason we call it teeing off on someone…
patrick II
@Hoodie:
50,000 armed concert goers returning fire with their handguns is a great idea. With 15 round magazines that would mean 750,000 bullets flying in the general direction of the Mandalay.
Chris T.
Even open-carrying a rifle doesn’t help that much as it’s really hard to aim in the middle of all that commotion.
Obviously, everyone should be open-carrying personal nukes. No need to aim, just set it off and obliterate everyting within a couple of miles!
The Lodger
@Bill Arnold: Related lore… possibly even forgotten lore.
Bill Arnold
@Chris T.:
Under the Scalia[1] rule, if you can carry it it, the Second Amendment protects your right to do so. So perhaps 50 kilos of weaponized smallpox. Or 50 kilos of antimatter. Or … perhaps 10 or 20 friendly and compliant Culture Combat Drones.
Scalia Suggests ‘Hand-Held Rocket Launchers’ Are Protected Under Second Amendment
[1] Still dead!
Bill Arnold
@The Lodger:
:-) Yes.
There has been a lot of recent literature on Crow/Corvidae cognition/ethology – been fun to watch, and map to the lore.
Karen
Thanks for the info on guns, sometimes it is hard to know what are facts and what is something pulled out of ether
Karen
@Ruckus: geese are more intelligent that people give them credit for, I have seen the same thing; lived in flyway near the big marsh in WI; they were careful about which cornfields they landed in near the marsh. Older pairs were good about staying away from farms where hunting had been allowed in past
Tom DeVries
@Bill Arnold: It would seem. Not what I would choose, but… well, if a guy can murder 20 kindergartners and more or less nothing happens, I’m thinking nothing’s going to happen for the foreseeable.
Karen
@Adam L Silverman: thanks, I at least know that I don’t know enough to argue with person who posted on my wall
cwmoss
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Wait til Thune uses early Steve Martin’s other punchline: “I didn’t want to, so I shot her.”
Sourmash
@Baud: Yes, that’s how it went down. Even the Fox Newsbabe had to laugh off Sean on that one. Noah came right back with “Dude, you couldn’t even protect the people in your office from a sexual predator, and now you’re Batman? Calm down, Sean. Calm down.”
Amir Khalid
@trollhattan:
I’ve heard (don’t know if true or not) that some members of Lynrd Skynrd perform while carrying weapons. They must really nor like stage invaders.