It’s good that women are naming and shaming highly placed sexual harassers / predators in the entertainment and media sector. But I don’t think it will change anything.
The reactions make me pessimistic. Several conservative media figures showed how clueless they remain by suggesting the solution is to further constrain the behavior of victims — e.g., “Wish you’d followed the Pence Rule now, huh, libtards?”
Others, like WaPo’s Dana Milbank, are horrified to learn they were oblivious to the hostile environment their female colleagues confront, but they’re still clueless about how their own oafish behavior contributes to it:
I and many other male alumni of the New Republic, feminists all, are shaken by what we’ve learned this week. We weren’t a conspiracy of silence, but we were in a cone of ignorance. My friend Franklin Foer, a former editor, recalls being uncomfortable with Wieseltier’s lewd comments when he first arrived at the magazine. But “they just seemed accepted. I said nothing — and certainly didn’t think hard enough about how those remarks would be suggestive of private behavior or created a hostile environment.”
That would be Dana “Mad Bitch Beer” Milbank. His co-sketcher, Chris Cillizza, seems to bob to the top of the media tank somehow, like a particularly buoyant (and untalented) turd. And his takeaway from the Weinstein scandal was that Hillary Clinton allowed X number of days to pass before speaking about it publicly. Hey, maybe y’all are part of the problem, even if you keep your paws off your coworkers’ boobs?
The disheartening thing is that, for the foreseeable future, we are doomed to live in the world these schmucks built. Rebecca Traister published a powerful piece making that point in New York Magazine. An excerpt of “Our National Narratives Are Still Being Shaped by Lecherous, Powerful Men” follows:
In hearing these individual tales, we’re not only learning about individual trespasses but for the first time getting a view of the matrix in which we’ve all been living: We see that the men who have had the power to abuse women’s bodies and psyches throughout their careers are in many cases also the ones in charge of our political and cultural stories…
And while it may feel cathartic for some women to finally get to say things they’ve been waiting years to say, this does not undo the damage. We can’t go back in time and have the story of Hillary Clinton written by people who have not been accused of pressing their erections into the shoulders of young women who worked for them.
We cannot retroactively resituate the women who left jobs, who left their whole careers because the navigation of the risks, these daily diminutions and abuses, drove them out. Nor can we retroactively see the movies they would have made or the art they would have promoted, or read the news as they might have reported it.
This tsunami of stories doesn’t just reveal the way that men have grabbed and rubbed and punished and shamed women; it shows us that they did it all while building the very world in which we still have to live.
Yeah, what she said. It’s really not surprising Trump could get elected in such a world, when you look at it from that perspective.
m.j.
The response?
Men are men and if you want what you’ve got then let them be all that they can be.
Do you really think those pantywaists can give you the same thing?
Baud
Fixed.
Trentrunner
Rebecca Traister, Michelle Goldberg, and the women of Balloon Juice are the voices we need now.
Men should be quiet and listen and watch. And fucking reflect.
ETA: And stop raping and harassing.
martian
I’ve been following conversations around twitter and becoming tremendously depressed with the misogyny evident on the left as it looks like Taibbi is about to skate on gross and documented in his own words behavior by calling it “satire”. First person accounts in a memoir are not enough. Interviews are not enough. Fucking video is not enough for the right or the left.
What a world.
SWMBO
@Trentrunner: Or staying silent when they see objectionable behavior.
bystander
Milbank’s piece prompted me to note it wasn’t the first time Milbank was quite upfront about his cluelessness.
Speaking of which, I’m puzzled by the comments wishing efgoldman well. Is he ill?
Jeanne
Thanks for this, Betty. When I first read Traister’s piece, I felt numb. It’s the kind of truth that you want to shrink away from. It’s stuck with me since then, though, so that now I’m supremely pissed. Not sure if either of these reactions are helpful, but pissed feels better. Much better.
Trentrunner
@martian: Maybe. But it seems to me Taibbi’s getting slammed really good for this. A lot of us didn’t know about his 1999 book and its vile content. We do now. I’m done with him, and it looks like I’m not alone.
Toxic white masculinity is the scourge of our society.
Major Major Major Major
And as always this really just tells you that the men saying it consider themselves to be naturally inclined to sexual assault. Like how the people who think homosexuality is a choice are clearly considering it.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
I don’t know. I’m hopeful. I feel like I have to be. I don’t know how I’d make it if I didn’t have any hope. All these people speaking up, maybe it can help change things. People are losing work over this shit, as they should. I guess all we can do is keep talking about it openly. I guess it’s when people look the other way that it can thrive.
I know it’s easy for me to feel hopeful, since this never happens to me, but still, I do hope maybe things might begin to shift.
Silent no more
@bystander: I’m sure others who know more will chime in — he went to the hospital on Thursday or Friday.
Baud
@Trentrunner:
The Baud Rule, which is > the Pence Rule.
J R in WV
I can shut up and listen. I would rather give guys who mistreat women a hard time, but whatever. The guys committing harassment and rape should be fired and prosecuted. Guys who knew about it and did nothing should just be fired.
I’ll shut up now…
Betty Cracker
@Trentrunner: That reminds me; I need to cancel my Rolling Stone subscription and specify why.
trollhattan
Local trial of a high school teacher charged with “grooming” susceptible female students into having sex and even buying him gifts is disconcerting for the defense tactic, which to summarize is essentially “they’re old enough to know what they’re doing and besides, bitchez be ho’s, amirite?”
If I were on the jury I’d convict the teacher and his lawyer.
Major Major Major Major
@martian: what did that insufferable shitheel do?
@Baud: I’m concerned that ‘stop’ is part of the Baud! rule instead of ‘don’t’.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Details are still being worked on in committee.
martian
@Trentrunner: We’ll see. The defenders are out in force. The idea that he could – years later! – claim that work sold as journalism was just a satirical expose and that all the contemporaneous interviews were done “in character”, I’m fucking astounded. This from people who scorned and mocked the Trump “locker room talk” excuse.
I am feeling extraordinarily alienated from my progressive betters right now.
bystander
@Silent no more: In that case, I join in sending EFG get well wishes.
That was a 2013 New Year’s resolution, and so far, so good.
Baud
@J R in WV:
To be honest, except in the case of physical violence, I would get concerned about playing the white knight who comes to save the damsel in distress, which can be sexist in its own way.
artem1s
It was going to happen sooner or later. Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill ripped off the bandaid and everyone went out and wrote a harassment policy and went back to business as usual. Anyone who thought anything had changed is sadly naive. Some people get it. Some work places have HR departments that will draw clear lines in the sand. But the reality is that nothing much has changed. The rich and powerful, those at the top of the organizational chart have continued to behave exactly the same. The only solution is more transparency on the part of the those who are most at risk in the work place. More women at all levels in the management chain. More women in the board room. It won’t solve the Phyllis Schaffleys of the world but the more power we allow women who do speak out, the less they are silenced by laws and custom, the more the culture has a place to grow and change.
the reality of my generation of women is they generally voted to maintain their power structure and those white women who voted for Trump honestly believe that world is their only refuge. Without the protection of some penis they will be poor and alone and cast out from polite society. And they are not willing to pay the price that speaking out for their sisters and friends is going to cost them. Nice polite christian republicans don’t have lechers and pussy grabbers in their families. dontchaknow.
J R in WV
@bystander:
Yes, doing poorly, back in hospital.
ETA: Otherwise this is me trying to be silent while opposing sexism in general, etc.
Baud
@martian: Our progressive betters are neither progressive not better. Discuss.
martian
@Major Major Major Major: Wrote a memoir with his proud rapist buddy, Ames, about the amazing, gonzo time they spent running a ‘zine in Moscow in the rock ‘n’ roll 90’s.
cosima
As someone whose career in the oil industry was more or less 24/7 misogyny and harassment, I can say that my take on it is that it will not go away until this generation of entitled deplorables (whichever side of the political spectrum they occupy) dies. My husband and I met working offshore on a project, there was a man who talked to my husband about the good old days when they could fly strippers to the rig on a company plane, and have them dance pole dances using the drill pipe. Needless to say, drugs & alcohol were abundant. That same man, when phoning me – for work issues, of course — would say ‘I’d pay you $$$$/hr to talk to me on the phone.’ And yet, when one of the creepy guys offshore gave our summer intern a shoulder massage — uninvited — I turned his arse in and he was fired. I also complained about a situation in the kitchen where I was getting some sketchy vibes about a young girl being taken advantage of by someone above her, and he was fired (because oh yes he was doing awful things). I could fill a book with stories of what it was like working in the oil industry, as a female engineer, during the 90s (the 2000s were looking up in that regard). But it is, definitely, an industry that is making progress. It is not, unfortunately, making progress in the area of putting women in positions of power — which would go a long way toward addressing these issues systemically — but HR has been enforcing these things rigidly since the early 2000s, and it has changed a lot. I suspect that there are still many abuses that still go on, as will be the case as long as there are awful people in the world, i.e. forever.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: just make sure you’re doing it for the right reasons. Certainly don’t say nothing.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Intent and perception are not necessarily correlated.
Thru the Looking Glass...
@Trentrunner: Having had a scary female stalker in my life, there is another side to that coin…
I know, I know… contrary opinion… let the verbal abuse begin!
opiejeanne
@m.j.: There was a movie that a neighbor lent me in the late 80s that tried to make that point, that women should just shut up and let them be who they are, let them blow their wages on booze and gambling and go ahead and have those babies because babies are a poor man’s treasure.
Ugh. Her mother was married to a very abusive man, and she left home to get away from their toxic stew and married a non-violent but emotionally abusive/manipulative man. The neighborhood women noticed not long after they moved into the house; we gave her a bit of emotional support when she seemed to need it, listened when she griped, took her to lunch on her birthday when he was out of town and didn’t bother to call her.
You could see the pattern after you got to know her and for her to preach their gospel was very disturbing
Waspuppet
I saw that. They tried SO HARD to stick with “sexual harassment and assault are bad” but after 2-3 days they just couldn’t take it anymore.
Baud
@Thru the Looking Glass…: That’s not really another side.
Thru the Looking Glass...
I would be in agreement on this… and it won’t change anything for the same reasons we can’t get rid of racism… ageism… why we’re knee deep in neo-Nazi/alt-right types 70 years after WW II…
Thru the Looking Glass...
@Baud: Just out of curiosity, why or why not?
Starfish
Who was the judge recently who told a girl who was 17 that she was fat but had a pretty face so she should be flattered that she was raped?
In our recent local election, I voted for all women. I am not deeply concerned about their positions. I am concerned that we need to do better and not let dudes who are going to make excuses for other dudes get through the system. A lot of the protest groups (Indivisible and others) are majority women, and yet the candidates we have do not reflect that. They should.
Major Major Major Major
@martian: delightful.
@Baud: how do you mean?
Thru the Looking Glass...
@Baud: True… and that raises the question, what is the appropriate/effective response?
martian
@Major Major Major Major: https://mobile.twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/923909256126091264
A link to part of Valenti’s discussion of it.
Silent no more
I remember applying for a job in the 80s, and it was very odd — nothing gross, just questions like “you’d be working for my father, who can be very difficult with young women, how would you handle that?”. My answers weren’t correct, since I wasn’t offered the job….for which I am retrospectively grateful. It still astounds me that they probably knew exactly what this person did to young women and didn’t anticipate doing anything to curb the behavior.
geg6
Fucking A, Betty.
I really think this is all being driven by the collective PTSD we women have due to that fucking creepy goddam sick bastard squatting in our White House. We couldn’t stop him from squatting but for an awful lot of us, he was the last fucking straw. So many of us have said enough is enough andxare finally telling our stories. Many men I know have been stunned by things like the Women’s March and by #Me Too. I am more hopeful about this than you. This is all a reaction to the slow motion train wreck the country has been going through the last year and a half. It’s a form of Resistance and Resistance in this particular form is sweet.
Baud
@Thru the Looking Glass…:
Your comment kind of All Lives Matter’ed the topic. “Another side of the coin” would be something from the perspective of the abuser. The fact that there are women creeps too isn’t the other side of this coin. It’s the same side, but burying the unique harm that women suffer due to how society is currently structured.
stinger
I’m only surprised by all the people who claim to be surprised that this stuff happens. How could anyone not know? For women, this happens to EVERYONE. In every field of endeavor. Heck, just walking down the sidewalk. The man doesn’t have to be senior to you, or powerful, or famous, or acquainted with you in any way. He just has to see you as lesser than himself.
And for men, if they aren’t doing it, they must be aware that it’s happening. I just can’t believe otherwise. It’s too pervasive. Not all men. But those who do it, do it semi-publicly, and brag/joke about it.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major:
It’s like mansplaining. Maybe my intent in explaining is to be helpful, but it can be perceived as condescending to the explainee.
stinger
@Baud: Thank you.
Thru the Looking Glass...
I read recently that Emily’s List had something like 20,000 women approach them about running for office in 2018, up from 920 in 2015-2016… that’s an incredible increase, 2,000%… and I’m wagering the vast majority of those individuals are NOT running as Republicans…
I have to say, I’m really interested in seeing how this plays out next year…
Baud
@stinger: I don’t see it where I am. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn of it, but I don’t see it because I am out of the social loop on most things.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
Anyone who needed to find out about a book he wrote two decades ago to realize that Matt Taibbi is a disgusting creep hasn’t paid attention to his writing since then.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: I guess I don’t see the parallel. Are we not talking about saying something to a guy you see acting or talking inappropriately?
Thru the Looking Glass...
@Baud: Right, there we go…
I say something you don’t like, and right away I’m ‘one of THOSE types’… so nice of you to be open-minded about what someone else has to say…
cosima
@Silent no more: Ugh, that reminds me of my first job in the 80s — the boss had a stack of Playboy magazines next to his chair.
martian
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: But I don’t think he has in his recent writing ever admitted to rape. Satire!
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: I excepted physical violence. But if a woman is getting cat called, for example, would she welcome my intervention or would she prefer that I assume that she can handle it herself? I don’t know the answer.
Baud
@Thru the Looking Glass…: Meh. If you want to fit what I said into your prefabricated outrage, I don’t care. Have fun with your little game.
Thru the Looking Glass...
@cosima: I remember walking into a lawyer’s waiting room in the mid eighties for an appointment and finding a stack of Penthouse magazines sitting on a coffee table… doesn’t go over well… there’s also an episode of Seinfeld where Jerry finds something similar in his dentist’s waiting room…
Thru the Looking Glass...
@Baud: My prefabricated outrage?
Hah! Thanks for proving me right…
opiejeanne
@Baud: Thank you. You expressed that very well, and it reminded me of a long ago conversation with my parents derailing a discussion of domestic violence by pointing out that some men are abused by their wives. The only rebuttal I could think of was, “Yeah, that’s like 5% of the problem. I was talking about the other 95% and what should/could be done about it.”
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: JR said
Which is a different thing from intervention in my mind. You aren’t jumping in front of her and saying “I’ll save you from this cat-calling wretch!”, you’re saying hey buddy, don’t be an asshole. At least that’s how I read it.
ETA I’ve been assuming you know the guy in question.
cosima
@Thru the Looking Glass…: My TL;DR comment above about the oil industry is a reflection of the changes in corporate environments — basically, if a company is large enough to have an HR department policing these things, the environment is improving for women in the workplace. However, I would not be surprised if there are even now small businesses where Playboys can be found in the bathrooms, if not in the boss’ office. Unfortunately, systemic change comes through having women in positions of power — and we are a very very long way from that.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Many variables.
@opiejeanne: Thanks!
Major Major Major Major
@opiejeanne: it’s a sort of whataboutism.
@Baud: yeah I was just imagining saying to your buddy, “What the fuck dude?” Same as I’d do if they made a casually racist comment.
martian
A link to an interview Taibbi and Ames gave while promoting their book that Taibbi now claims was given “in character”.
Ames openly discusses raping Russian women in this interview.
opiejeanne
@Baud: Also, stalking seems to me to be in a different category from what we were discussing, which is men abusing their power of position.
(Stalking seems to be an equal opportunity bad behavior.I was stalked by the wife of a house painter who knew he was screwing someone in my neighborhood, and she was right but it was another house he was working on, two blocks away. The cops got involved because we felt our kids were threatened)
Starfish
@Thru the Looking Glass…: Every time that a woman posted to #MeToo, there was a man as the top comment asking “What about the men?”
But none of those men had anything to say when Terry Crews mentioned being molested by someone. A lot of men talking about “what about the mens” were men trying to derail women.
I am going to let you go on with whatever it is you think you are doing, but I want you to really think about what it is that you are doing.
Cheryl Rofer
I tend to agree with geg6 that we are seeing a fundamental change. It’s in response to a lot of things that are transparent and women are getting told to shut up about them. And, with social media, we’re not shutting up.
Here’s another horrible story of Christine Fair’s difficulties in academia.
Margaret Sullivan argues that the problem won’t go away until there is more equality in the workplace overall. I disagree with that: we need to work on both the harassment and the hiring at the same time. They are tied up together.
Now there’s one more notable offender… (among many, but who particularly needs to be removed from his job).
martian
@martian: okay, my link doesn’t want to materialize:. Try again: http://observer.com/2000/06/from-russia-with-lust/amp/
opiejeanne
@Major Major Major Major: You’re a good guy, and I’m appreciative of any backing I get even if I can handle the situation, but I’m not sure how typical my reaction is.
At the very least my parents’ nonsense was on the same subject
schrodingers_cat
I went for a hike this morning, and now I am all achy and sore. The colors haven’t been that great this year it was still nice. Then stopped by a little church thrift store on the way back, bought a lovely kilt skirt for $1. Then off to the farm stand, had the most delicious homemade pumpkin ice-cream. Then had lunch at the local Japanese-Korean restaurant. I had a bento box with sushi and tempura. All in all a fun morning.
trollhattan
@Starfish:
Arm-waving while squalling “Look at me”?
m.j.
1987
Vicki Lawrence trying to explain, “barefoot and pregnant.” to Pat Morita. It’s after the 7 minute mark.
stinger
@opiejeanne: Both sides do it!
Major Major Major Major
@stinger: #notallmen
Gelfling 545
@stinger: Just today I had a bit of a revelation. I was talking with my granddaughter about the “me too” thing and said that I guess I was lucky that nothing ever happened to me that I couldn’t deflect and/or remove myself from fairly easily. She remarked that just because I handled it didn’t mean it wasn’t wrong and a stop shouldn’t be put. That I shouldn’t have HAD to handle it. Out of the mouths of babes…well, college freshman. Yes, it’s everywhere.
fuckwit
@geg6: that’s very obvious, and the pink pussy hat march made that very clear. electing an admitted sexual assaulter and possible rapist to the presidency– instead of what should have been the historic election of the first woman president– was beyond injury and insult. now the women are pissed off. good. they have every reason to be.
J R in WV
@Starfish:
I can’t tell which is more amazing, that a JUDGE would have such an opinion, or that he would think he could make such an outrageous statement of his opinion without repercussions.
Should be fired, lose his pension, be disbarred, live under a bridge on the edge of a failed little town on the northern plains.
Oops, there I go again not being quiet.
HeleninEire
This looks HUGE now.. I was around for the Anita Hill debacle. And it was Joe Biden who shut her up. Cuz that shit doesn’t happen. So I am hesitant to say anything’s gonna happen.
Except to say #metoo. And every single woman on this blog.
Barbara
@Trentrunner: Taibbi, who lords his sneering contempt for both parties over all of us who try to shape the world we live in even if we have to do it through imperfect instruments and organizations. That kind of sneering comes from being well-paid and well-connected (dad is a long time NBC correspondent), and it is even more irksome when the bearer won’t admit those things. Self-examination has never been his strong suit.
opiejeanne
@schrodingers_cat: Sounds great.
We went to the dump this morning. That’s not a bad thing here because they have a store where they sell good stuff that’s been discarded and sometimes there are really cool things, but today was a bust which is probably a good thing.
We’re at a little mountain cabin in Southern California and the weather is gorgeous. Blue skies, mid-70s, very light breeze. No fires here so that’s a definite win. The tumble-down cabin on one side is being repaired , the Stellar Jays are demanding peanuts and telling us to get out of their way when he hang around the porch too long. Every time we come back there’s something new, mostly good.
zhena gogolia
@Gelfling 545:
It certainly happened to me multiple times in the workplace. I wasn’t traumatized, but then these were summer jobs during college, not my life’s career. I can’t imagine how that would be.
opiejeanne
@m.j.: Do you have a link?
Barbara
@Baud: It would not surprise me in the least that for many people the solution to harassment is to further victimize women so that they get to choose — as they do now — between accepting revolting behavior and a lower paycheck or no paycheck at all. That trade off has never bothered a lot of men.
J R in WV
@Major Major Major Major:
Years ago (30? or so)I was in a welding class with a guy who cat-called while riding in my vehicle, once. I don’t know anyone who does that now. Hell, I don’t know any Republicans anymore, I don’t think.
zhena gogolia
@HeleninEire:
Anita Hill “triggered” me, although that word didn’t exist in its modern connotation.
It’s why I can’t entirely take Biden seriously, and why I snort whenever anyone mentions the decency of George H. W. Bush. What a cynical SC nomination that was.
NorthLeft12
I have struggled to write something here about this topic for awhile. I have been ashamed and infuriated by the behavior of men towards women since I was old enough [mid-teens I would say] to understand what I was seeing and hearing. And even then, I think I was always surprised at the depth of my own ignorance of the real situation, and how my own actions and inactions contributed to the problems of women, especially in the workplace. I need to do better and provide more support.
I have benefited from a wife and two daughters who have been unflinchingly honest with me about what they faced in classrooms, workplaces, and in daily life. I doubt they have shared everything because some things are just too difficult to share.
I have led a pretty sheltered life, I think, but I am still astounded at other men who dismiss the idea of a rape culture, and a general environment of persecution and abuse of females. The evidence of this has been in the daily news, advertising, entertainment, and directly in front of our fucking faces as long as I can remember.
I am an optimistic person, and I hope that this is a real shift in the long term relationship of men and women in the workplace, in the home, and in society in general. Once again, it will be important to be able to recognize who your real allies are. My own goal is to be able to be counted on as one of those allies.
Sab
@cosima:Hey, you’ve unlurked! Insightful as always.
I’ve worked in small profesional offices (law and accounting) since about 1980, and sexual harassment has always been an issue in almost every office I have worked in.
I do think your approach is a useful suggestion. The victim shouldn’t bear the onus of reporting it. People often know it’s going on and have some responsibility. Instead of clucking condolences over drinks after work, we should report it to higher management. Won’t work if the boss is the perpetrator but often the boss has no idea.
Brachiator
Wait. What?
This dumb ass rule constrains men like Pence as well because it imposed dumb ass rules of behavior on them. What, would Pence run out of a room he had entered if he saw that he would be alone with a woman?
Pence’s bullshit is wrapped with his warped view of patriarchal Christianity. But we are a Puritan inflected nation, and this has steeped into the way we view the world.
And to me, this includes the foolish belief that lewd talk must inevitably be linked to harassment.
I don’t buy it. Nor do I buy the idiotic nonsense that tries to describe this behavior as “white male toxicity.” And certainly, trying to stick this onto conservatives is just as vile as conservatives trying to ascribe this stuff to liberal beliefs.
I am somewhat pessimistic about this because human beings are often assholes, yeah, men especially. Some men need to link their drive for success to their sex drive. But this is not new.
But the desire of reasonable people to try to come up with reasonable codes of behavior is not new either. It is a constant struggle, and maybe there is hope in that.
cynthia ackerman
@cosima:
Can’t think of a more powerful position than pole dancing on a drill pipe …
//
Major Major Major Major
@Barbara: yeah, I am 110% unsurprised to read this about him.
Sister Golden Bear
Wish I could find the essay, but it made the great point that after #metoo any man who continues to be shocked has been willfully blind.
Look I get it, as someone who’s lived on both sides of the gender binary, men don’t see a lot of the sexual harassment that goes on. (I didn’t, when I was living as a man.) Either because some of it doesn’t happen when other men are around, or because society has normalized it so much that it hides in plain sight (e.g. as Milbank says “well I knew he was kind of flirty.”) But trust me, when I started living as a woman, it became all too pervasive. So #yesallwomen.
Baud – There’s a difference between “Don’t worry, I’ll save you,” and “Hey buddy, don’t be an asshole.” I think most women wouldn’t have a problem with the latter.
Barbara
Sexual harassment has definitely been an issue in some of the offices I have worked in. It wasn’t always clear what was harassing behavior (because there were some affairs that seemed to be clearly consensual), but there are several men who come to mind immediately who used the office as their personal fishing pond. Even enlightened employers have a hard time responding to this behavior when it is exhibited by “stars” in whatever way that is embodied in the profession. I have worked late, and gone on business trips with male colleagues and I can say without reservation that no one ever chased me around the desk or exhibited similar behavior towards me. I have no idea why. I have always felt lucky in the people I have had the opportunity to work with and this is definitely one reason why. I only say this because when I read comments that “everybody does it” or, “it happens everywhere,” I think that undercuts the idea that this is something that can change, and that workplaces can be different, and people can be successful and hold power over others without engaging in egregiously exploitative behavior.
Barbara
@Brachiator: In the words of one of my Iranian pro bono clients, who told the virtue police interviewing her for admission to college, “women shouldn’t have to police male behavior. Men should be responsible for maintaining their own virtue.” No, she didn’t get admitted. But boy, she had guts.
Colleeniem
@Sister Golden Bear: That’s exactly right. The address should be to him, not her.
Suzanne
@Gelfling 545: I think you just identified a huge part of the problem—women are just so goddamned used to putting up with men’s shit that we literally don’t even think about it. It’s just the world we live in and we can’t often even imagine a different one.
Steve in the ATL
I am a Labor and employment lawyer. I have so many stories about this stuff it would make your head spin. There are plenty of women who behave badly in the workplace, but no comparison to the men. Especially considering how much less power women have there overall.
Bigger companies have made quantum leaps in this area in the last twenty years. Smaller shops are hit or miss. Law firms are some of the worst!
schrodingers_cat
@Steve in the ATL: And even when some women have power they treat other women more poorly than they do men.
@Suzanne: So true, its like the fish that doesn’t notice the water around it.
Steve in the ATL
@schrodingers_cat: that is sadly very common. Same with minority managers.
Brachiator
One sad thing about the Pence rule, and the religious extremism behind it, is that the GOP is busily trying to codify aspects of it into domestic law, and it is already influencing foreign aid policy. And the crazy thing is that evangelicals see Trump as their hope for a more Christianized America despite his own personal background.
And I think this would lead to a reversal of laws relating to harassment.
schrodingers_cat
@Steve in the ATL: My advisor was much nastier bitch to her female graduate students than her male students.
Ruckus
@Barbara:
Has it ever been for any of the people being discussed?
Gvg
I have been lucky. I really have not had that much happen to me. There were a few isolated incidents when I was working in resteraunts. One compulsive liar that also stalked but lasted a month because the other 16 people employed called the owner. I knew one owner never promoter women and changed jobs. So there were things but then I went back to college, worked for the state for 23 years so far most of them with a woman director, lately with her male second in command promoted, more women then men in the office….one guy tried to harass. A couple of people and witnesses reported him and he was gone. Dramatic revelation about another years ago who seemed fine, caught by a sting soliciting a minor, fired. Basically bad actors got found out and taken care of the way it’s supposed to be. Since the problems got addressed, they didn’t really impact us.
I assumed that state rules and a competent HR department plays a part.
Everyone should have it as good. How do we get there?
Ladyraxterinok
@stinger: Men who claim not to know what other men are/were doing in their company, profession, etc… Is it going too far to see parallels to ‘good Germans’ who ‘had no idea’?
Betsy
@Baud: Oh, that was so perfect.
ruemara
@martian: welcome to my world
@schrodingers_cat: Funny how some women can be, no?
sukabi
@martian: I haven’t read taibbi’s stuff in several years, mainly because he went from being a Thompson wanna be to on obnoxiously rambling “know it all”…certainly didn’t know his “backstory” ….gotta say, after reading that interview he’s a completely loathsome person that shouldn’t have any kind of megaphone in the public sphere.
m.j.
link
martian
@ruemara: Yeah. I don’t know where I’m going from here. Politically, I’m a leftist, but I’m growing to really hate all the self-declared Leftists, so…. dunno. I feel like I have to reevaluate everything.
@sukabi: The backstory gets so, so much worse. I didn’t feel comfortable quoting Ames describing how he and Matt sexually assaulted and harassed their Russian employees. Ames, by his own account, is a serial rapist. Maybe Taibbi, too, but he’s not bragging like Ames. But it’s looking more and more like Ames and Taibbi will skate on “satire”. The story seems to be dying down.
Kayla Rudbek
@geg6: Yes, it’s in the zeitgeist all right. I just read a SF book this week called The Power by Naomi Alderman that has the women turning the tables in quite dramatic and satisfying fashion
Karen
Why can’t Dems go for the throat with political ads? Northam was winning and it’s like he rolled over for Gillespie!