With Monday’s revelations, we know more about Donald Trump’s Russian connections, but there is obviously more to come. As I urged in August, we need to think about options for the country’s response as this plays out.
David Roberts (@drvox) posted a tweetstream Sunday night on whether the country can come together, given the division sown by the Republicans and their implications of “Second Amendment solutions” and, potentially, civil war. Daniel Nexon (@dhnexon), a professor of political science, posted a similar, but shorter tweetstream. Roberts has now written a post that is still longer and goes in a different direction than I take here. I’ll work from the tweetstreams.
Here is Nexon’s tweetstream, in narrative form.
- I don’t feel celebratory abt indictments. I’m not impressed w/ Mueller Time &c. It’s good justice might come to those as corrupt as Manafort
- But I see this as a grim day for the United States:
- The erstwhile campaign manager of POTUS was likely a crook to tune of 10s of millions of dollars, he worked w/ autocrats and oligarchs
- Even *after* Manafort was fired—when some of his perfidy was exposed—Trump continued to seek his advice. #draintheswamp indeed.
- POTUS, meanwhile, handles moment by tweeting out paper-thin conspiracy theories involving his defeated electoral opponent and 44th POTUS
- These theories are being blasted non-stop by right-wing media, and a significant percentage of the US public likely believes them.
- POTUS, even if, by some miracle, untouched by Russia collusion, has shattered norms against conflicts of interest and self-dealing.
- POTUS is more than likely to ‘get away’ with his small-bore self-enrichment, ensuring that there’s nothing to stop it in the future.
- Some kind of constitutional crisis looks like the *least bad* outcome of the current trajectory. Indeed, we’re already in one.
- In sum, this is all *terrible*—a time for mourning… about the state of the Republic, the governing party, and the Presidency
I disagree in a couple of places, but only slightly. I think it’s fine to celebrate that Robert Mueller’s investigation has resulted in indictments and conviction for wrongdoers, but I agree that we can’t lose sight of the bigger problem. I am dubious about using the phrase “constitutional crisis,” because it is being used for too many things and thus is losing meaning in today’s context. Better to specify the particular conflict, of which we are likely to see several.
Breaking down Nexon’s concerns further,
- Trump has employed, and continues to employ, fundamentally dishonest people.
- Trump, aided by rightwing media, disseminates an alternate reality.
- A significant part of the US population believes this alternate reality.
- Trump is using his office to enrich himself and has broken other norms of the presidency.
- There is no clear way to resolve this satisfactorily.
Roberts’s tweets focus on whether the country can come together to find a way to resolve the problems the Trump presidency presents. I dipped into some of these problems in August. I don’t have answers but intend to keep thinking and writing about this.
In a world not dominated by Republican need for tax cuts for the wealthy, we would probably already have articles of impeachment introduced in the House. That will not happen until after the tax cut bill is defeated. Wealthy donors say they will defect if the bill is not passed, and the prospect of not being elected may loom in the calculations of Republican members of Congress.
Or the ever-increasing news of Russian manipulation of social media might cause Republicans to wonder if the Russians might turn against them. Or they might realize that having an adversarial nation help them might be seen by the voters as undesirable. The willingness of Republicans in Congress to accept Russian help in the election and to cover it up was striking. I’ll do another post on that.
Roberts uses Watergate as an example. It took time to build public and Congressional opinion toward impeachment. There was a hard-line residue, like today’s Trump approvers, who thought Nixon was acting appropriately. Who ignored the blatant 18-minute hiatus in the tapes of Nixon’s meetings in the White House. But members of Congress recognized their duty to the nation and urged Nixon to resign.
The process then was gradual, and it will be gradual today, although perhaps accelerated in the way everything is now. The hard-line residue will not back impeachment. But we live in a democracy, and, if those opposing Trump make a strong showing, as in next week’s Virginia elections, members of Congress will take notice.
As more members of Congress speak out and then move against Trump, more of the public will follow. We need to press those members to move. So more phonecalls, please.
Aleta
Trentrunner
Well, Northam lost me when he went spineless with his race-baiting on sanctuary cities. He SHOULD lose now, to send a message that Dems need to guard their base, always.
Cheryl Rofer
@Trentrunner: Since I am proud to live in a sanctuary city, I was disturbed by Northam’s comment. But it is more important for Democrats to win elections right now than for us to police one-off dumb comments. Keep your eye on the real problems: Trump and the Republicans.
Barbara
@Trentrunner: As a person who lives in Virginia and will bear the actual consequences of a loss, I think you are full of shit. Are you sent directly from Moscow or did you make a stop at the latest BernieBro seminar to find some new reason to punish Northam for having the temerity to oppose Perriello?
Barbara
@Cheryl Rofer: Here’s the thing: the “base” is going to suffer a hell of a lot more if Gillespie wins. Why people like Trentrunner prize rhetoric over action is just a complete mystery to me.
Major Major Major Major
Hell, forget the republicans coming to their senses, I’m worried today about the Democrats being able to keep their shit together. Newell at slate had a piece today about the debate over whether to emphasize impeachment that left me very disheartened. It’s a microcosm of how even though the party’s main factions agree 95% on policies we’re tearing ourselves apart over optics and messaging, and convincing ourselves that disagreeing over such things represents being useless establishment impure sellouts/non-accomplished purity ponies incapable of governing.
ETA there you go, we started while I was writing this right here.
Corner Stone
I don’t live in or near VA but we need to have every single person who votes D to show up at the ballot. We have to win that race.
cosima
While I do feel a lot of concern about the erosion of standards/norms related to POTUS, Congress et al, my greater concern is whether or not there will ever be a legitimate election in the future. Are vote numbers real? I don’t believe they were in the last election. It does not look as though they were in the recent Ossoff election.
But her emails!!!
@Trentrunner:
Just out of curiosity, are you a moron or a fucking moron? If you vote him in, you can primary his ass the next go around if he doesn’t redeem himself with his actual record. If he loses, Republicans in Virginia will make certain that you aren’t going to be able to elect a better Democrat the next cycle by disenfranchising minority voters.
Corner Stone
@Trentrunner: Oh come on.
The Moar You Know
Just want to point out that this is still an ongoing thing. They have not stopped. At all.
schrodingers_cat
The only way back from the current insanity is for the current version of the R party to suffer electoral defeat, repeatedly. They are not going to change unless they pay an electoral price for what they are doing.
Corner Stone
Like a lot of things that rouse the blood of the online denizens, a very small percentage of those will end up caring enough to actually act on their emotions when Trump is removed from office. It will not be a hot Civil War as some predict/clamor for.
Trentrunner
There was ZERO reason for Northam to cower and cave on sanctuary cities. Can we expect the same on abortion rights? Gay rights? Just how much caving is acceptable to you?
We’re done with these race-baiting Dems. They deserve to lose.
low-tech cyclist
@Trentrunner:
Well sure, the people of Virginia should be stuck with Gillespie and total Rethug control because Northam isn’t as perfect as you’d like, even though he’s miles better than Gillespie.
That makes sense.
Sherparick1
@Barbara: Trentrunner is of course wrong, and of course won’t be among the women likely to lose their reproductive rights, or a minority member whose vote will be suppressed. Nevertheless, he has a point about Northam running a “Republican lite” campaign, which may have been the appropriate Virginia strategy in the 1990s and early Oughts when a large number of white, rural residents would still call themselves “Conservative Democrats” and would vote Democratic in state elections. But now the Virginia, like the country has polarized and sorted into the different tribes, and you have to inspire your base to to to the polls. Northam has not been inspiring with comments about sanctuary cities and willing to sign a bill to forbid it if any Virginia locality, like, actually became a sanctuary city. For the Democratic consultants in DC it is always 1980s and the key to getting elected is to hide being a Democrat.
Amir Khalid
Trump has basically broken the Presidency by his performance and personal conduct in office. Removing him from the Oval Office can’t happen soon enough, but it would only be a first step. I fear it will take a President at least as good as Obama to mend what Trump has broken; not too many such people get elected, alas.
schrodingers_cat
@Corner Stone: I agree.
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner: should we primary Joe Manchin? He says bad things too.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Trentrunner: you’re right, when The People see what a terrible president Bush is, they’ll also see that there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between him and Gore, and the we’ll have President Dennis! in 2004!
(am I the only one old enough to remember when the road to President Dennis! ran through Nader? Am I the only one old enough to remember Dennis! ?)
But her emails!!!
@Trentrunner:
Point me to the actual legislation Northam passed that has a negative impact on sanctuary cities.
Betty Cracker
@But her emails!!!: Tough but fair!
SatanicPanic
I can think of some satisfying ways to resolve this, but I don’t want to step on Villago’s tumbrels beat.
Corner Stone
Although Cheryl disagrees somewhat with using this term, I happen to believe it to be true. The fundamental theory of three separate but co-equal branches of govt is not only under attack it is losing quite badly. Every day Trump stays in office, abetted by a spineless and cowardly Congress, our judicial branch is being weakened. The outright theft of the SCOTUS seat by Congress was the most meaningful shot fired at what was coming.
Now we have a chief executive attacking his own Executive Branch in an effort to exert authoritarian and dictator like power.
SatanicPanic
@Trentrunner: He might deserve to lose. But the rest of us don’t deserve to have Republicans in office.
Raoul
The WaPo analysis up this morning about GOP congressional retirements sees it through the lense of term limits for powerful chairs. I don’t dispute that this is a factor. But I think these career government folks, even if we opposed them on policy they (mostly, Hensarling was an ideologue of the first order and a total ass) had some sense of order and, y’know, governing.
Powerful House members are quitting. And I think it is in part because they see the looming crisis, conflict and collapse. (And WaPo cites Charlie Dent also acknowledging the WH chaos as a reason ppl are quitting).
-Lamar Smith
-Jeb Hensarling
-Pat Tiberi*
-Dave Reichert
-Sam Johnson
-Charlie Dent
-Jason Chaffetz already fled
On the Senate side
-Corker, Flake, Hatch
I will be supporting the Dems who run, but the likely outcome is many of these, esp House, are ‘red’ seats. We will get shittier, more ideological, and more gov’t-hating fools in Congress.
This shitshow can get so much worse.
*Hey, Kay: Any thoughts on his OH special elex?
Jeffro
@Trentrunner: Speaking as a VA resident, can I propose that Northam win (meaning, everyone here needs to really work their asses off and get him elected), THEN we take up the issue with him? Because an Eddie G. win probably isn’t going to get the result you think you want.
It’s always quit/burn-it-down with some people, I swear.
Major Major Major Major
@But her emails!!!:
We won’t know for sure how he feels until we see the transcripts of his Goldman Sachs speeches.
Trentrunner
@Sherparick1: LOL I’m “wrong,” but you just repeated my point, with even more historical context!
Northam must lose. Dems cannot continue to play footsie with racists.
schrodingers_cat
@Raoul: We need to see this as an opportunity to make some gains, even if don’t win every seat that is being vacated.
low-tech cyclist
I disagree. Even if the GOP had zero interest in passing a Tax Deform bill, they still wouldn’t be impeaching Trump, because their asses would be primaried right out of Congress if they did. And they know that.
The root problem is the alternate reality created by Fox News, talk radio, and by websites such as Breitbart and InfoWars. The solution? Bring back the Fairness Doctrine, and apply it to cable news/opinion as well as broadcast. Opposing viewpoints, challenging what Hannity, Fox & Friends, Limbaugh, etc. are saying, would puncture the balloon and make it a lot harder to swallow their reality whole.
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner: see, you can “have a point” and still “be wrong”. Pretty basic English. Rhetorical device used all the time.
Eric NNY
@Barbara: Excellent. More of this please.
Corner Stone
@Trentrunner: Can we get a few D’s into office, please? And then help them “evolve” as they go?
Thanks
Sherparick1
Just to follow up, Gillespie winning next week will embolden Trump and the Republican leadership to shut down the investigations and proceed with voter suppression and basically making opposing Trump and the Republican Oligarchic agenda illegal. Northam is a flawed candidate, but as a Democrat he can veto all the bad bills that Virginia’s Republican State Legislature will pass and perhaps force an end end to gerrymandering after the 2020 census. When you vote for a Democrat now, you are not voting for a person, you are voting to save the Republic. Not voting, or voting third party, is the same as voting for Trump and the Republicans and establishment of Oligarchy (if not a Trump monarchy).
NotMax
A problem, too, is the breakneck pace of the news cycle nowadays. Even the most skilled of jugglers can keep only a limited number of balls aloft.
For a majority of the public,
1) There is barely time to stop and assess the magnitude of a news item before it is subsumed by the next
2) All above the fold stories are not equal but their rapid appearance and disappearance create the illusion of being so.
What often now passes for analysis emerges from agitated reaction, not sober reflection.
low-tech cyclist
@Sherparick1:
Nailed it. Well said.
Raoul
@Corner Stone: Indeed. The very substantive danger here is that Trump has set a ton of very dangerous precedents. If/when he leaves (and I think he’ll find some reason to quit and blame, well, all of us) Mike Pence will be much more methodical, much more Xianist dominionist crazy, and will staff up with people who can actually do work rather than panic and bumble.
And no, I don’t (yet) believe that Pence will go down. Maybe, but he is keeping his nose shockingly clean of late, and the knives are out for Sessions and others close to Trump. The fix may be in for Pence to ‘restore order’ in the WH and nation, and make Trump a sad footnote on the path to a GOP authoritarian takeover.
Trentrunner
@Corner Stone: Northam depressed his own turnout with his race-baiting stand on sanctuary cities. How motivated will POC, immigrant families feel about GOTV? That was a racist, stupid thing for Northam to do, especially when his opponent has put on his own KKKostume for this race. Appalling, and inexcusable.
Northam should lose, and then Dems might learn.
Cheryl Rofer
@Corner Stone: I think it is true that Trump’s behavior keeps raising constitutional questions, and his whole presidency might be considered a constitutional crisis, but I think that overusing the phrase is counterproductive. It makes people upset but doesn’t tell them what to be upset about. And in just a morning’s tweets, Trump raises enough constitutional questions that it’s hard to focus on any one of them.
We need to focus precisely in order to take action. Confusion and distraction are part of Trump’s toolbox.
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: no evolution allowed. No on Obama 2008 because he doesn’t believe in gay marriage. Sick of Dems who flip-flop to play footsie with theocrats! Until they start to lose they’ll never learn.
zzyzx
@Trentrunner: Losing elections leads to people suggesting more centric candidates for safety. It’s winning that lets people move more to the left.
(Yeah probably a troll but…)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Major Major Major Major: $12 vs $15 minimum wage; regulation of shadow banking vs “breaking up the big banks”; UHC vs Single Payer…
Emo-progs want their emo, people who will suffer for their purity are the necessary collateral damage of Our Revolution
no comment
@But her emails!!!: VA governors are limited to one 4-year term. That might be changed, but there is no guarantee.
Still, I want Northam to win, not the guy who wants to keep up confederate statues.
Trentrunner
@Major Major Major Major: Evolution allowed. Racist regression is not. Spineless kowtowing to racist voters is not. Cowardly renouncing of core Democratic principles is not.
How many would support Northam if he had said, “Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare”?
This is not 1992. It’s 2017, the Nazis are in charge, and we don’t need Nazi-lite on our side.
Major Major Major Major
Awesome how the thread turned into this while I was writing my comment @6.
zzyzx
Remember, there are only perfect candidates who never deviate on any issue and closet Republicans.
Eljai
@NotMax: Good point. And the news media seems to have trouble maintaining focus as well. There’s a new outrage everyday. The press should focus on Trump’s corruption with the same intensity they conjured up for emails. All the dirt on the Trump Foundation is still there. He was not magically exonerated.
Roger Moore
@cosima:
This is a huge worry. We need to push for hand-countable paper ballots and routine post-election audits to look for anything amiss. Any system of voting that can’t be hand audited can’t be trusted.
Corner Stone
@Trentrunner: I feel pretty confident voters that are POC have seen the campaign Ed G has ran and know what they are dealing with. My hope is they don’t need to be inspired to vote to keep Ed G out of office.
And again, the simple fact that race and race baiting has allowed this election to be so damn close is disgusting and disturbing.
Sherparick1
@Trentrunner: This of course is what the German Communist Party said about not joining the opposition against Hitler in 1932. And I guess it worked out just as they expected (at least for the ones Stalin did not purge), since they ended up ruling a rump of Germany after 1945, 60 million dead, and Holocaust. Frankly, I don’t know if Bernie Nirvana would be worth WW III.
Also, Democratic politicians don’t learn that point by losing elections. They generally learn not to run anymore in elections in Southern and Border states. Or they decide to switch over to the Republicans like Goodlatte did. Please cite an example of moderate, centrists, Democrat candidate for state office in a Southern, Midwestern, or Border state losing to a Republican and then having a more liberal candidate eventually win office in that State?
For an anti-capitalist, you sure have a consumerist approach to politics, with a lot of self-indulgence.
chopper
@Trentrunner:
so now he’s “nazi lite”. obviously, being ruled over by asshole republicans like gillespie is a prerequisite for the great revolution to come. aaaaaaany day now.
Ocotillo
@Trentrunner: This is so wrong. People on the left side of the spectrum don’t have the luxury of sending messages to less than pure Dems. Redistricting will be coming up after the next round of elections and Virginia which has trended blue would be screwed by gerrymandering for a decade if that message is sent to Northam.
SatanicPanic
@Sherparick1: Oh god the thing i hate most about Democrats is this insistence that we shouldn’t ALWAYS vote for Democrats. Always and in all cases and I don’t give 2 shits about someone’s personal feelings about a candidate. We are up against a party that has lost all sense of good faith and reason and is pretty much a step away from advocating executing all of the rest of us. This is no time to act stupid about a campaign. Yes, he shouldn’t have been a p*ssy and shouldn’t have given in. That in no way means we should have to live with a Republican in office anywhere.
SatanicPanic
@The Moar You Know: This too. I’m tempted to start following stuff on FB just to see what kind of stupid stuff is going around, but then again I don’t think my knowing about it will help with anything.
Trentrunner
@Ocotillo: Why didn’t Northam consider this before he caved to racist voters? Is he morally bankrupt or just politically inept? Either way, he deserves to lose.
Also ITT: White voters ONCE AGAIN telling POC to take a seat, wait in line, keep quiet: “Nazi-lite–it’s the best we can do.”
FUCK THAT.
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner:
Well, here’s Obama saying it in 2010.
Betty Cracker
@Trentrunner:
I would, if his opponent had said, “I would like to see abortion be banned.” Which he did.
glory b
@Trentrunner: Screw that. People said the same thing about Clinton, where has it gotten us/
Women, POC, LGBT, etc. don’t have the kind of time you have to wait another few years for this to change. Hell, we don’t even know if we’ll be allowed to vote the next time.
JR
@Raoul: That’s my feeling too. I’m not terribly happy with the retirements, even if they are all (R)s.
Again, the crisis we face cannot be viewed through a purely partisan lens.
Sherparick1
@Sherparick1: Before you say “Illinois,” Illinois is now the exception and outlier in the Midwest, and even they chose a Republican Governor in 2014 and sent the liberal, non-regular Democrat Pat Quinn packing. Illinois is now surrounded by a sea of deepening Red. Republicans are firmly in control now in Missouri, Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, and Kentucky, and the Democratic Party is becoming rump in a few Black majority districts in those states and the white populations are all “Southernized” and “Fox indoctrinated.”
Served
@Trentrunner:
You’re making quite a leap here and I think you should consider walking away from this thread for a bit.
Penus
@But her emails!!!: I largely agree with you, but you’re wrong that Northam can be primaried. VA govs can’t seek re-election.
Ocotillo
@Trentrunner: Lose now and Gillespie and the GOP screw POC for the next decade. You have a better shot of working with someone with an open mind than being gerrymandered out of power for the rest of some peoples lives.
debit
@Trentrunner: I think there’s a diary at GOS with your name on it. Maybe you should go expend energy there.
Corner Stone
Of all the dumb things Chuck Todd says, he finally got something right. If the grenade Brazile rolled into the DNC and D Party goes off and Northam loses in VA that grenade will turn radioactive. The only narrative the media will run for weeks is that Dems can’t win and Trumpism is still on the rise. And can you imagine the gloating from Trump?
That alone should put the fear of FSM into D voters and get their asses to the ballot box.
But her emails!!!
@no comment:
Hmm. I wasn’t aware of that. I’m going to assume that he has future political ambitions, so the basic premise still holds. Elect him so that you still have the option of electing someone better next time and then punish Northam by making sure that he doesn’t make it out of the primary when he runs for a different elected office.
zzyzx
Not sure if I should be relieved that the Republican Party is reduced to trying to depress the vote on the BJ comments section or terrified that it’s close enough that they think it might help.
Corner Stone
How many times can Trump call for the DoJ to start investigating Clinton before someone tells him to STFU?
Corner Stone
And my God, Elizabeth Warren. What the fuck is wrong with you?
Trentrunner
@Corner Stone: …”Dems can’t win, if they continue to be GOP-lite” wouldn’t be the worst message to get when Nazis occupy the White House & Congress.
debit
@Trentrunner: Will you stop? Seriously. You are not helping anything.
Dmbeaster
Failure to support sanctuary cities is not racist regression. It just is not. Thinking that a rethug would be better is just wrong. Dissing Northam for this reason is just like saying we need Trump rather than Hillary in order to reach a pure progressive world. It is collossally stupid.
I agree with the concept that Dems should not run from progressive positions in order to find an illusory safe centrist position. But sanctuary cities is not a core progressive position, nor should it be the litmus test between a Dem and a Rethug.
We do not need to destroy the village in order to save it, and this intransigence concerning purity is exactly that spirit.
chuck_da_kid
This post contains some baseless speculation, albeit speculation that has the decency to qualify itself.
“In a world not dominated by Republican need for tax cuts for the wealthy, we would probably already have articles of impeachment introduced in the House.” Is this based on conversations with Washington insiders? Or just your take on the situation?
I’mt not sure where Professor Nexon gets off claiming that we are “already in a constitutional crisis”, and props to Cheryl for pushing back on this. Associate professor at Georgetown is not close the credentials necessary to make a statement like that with a shred of legitimacy. If you want to cite Larry Tribe and Chemerinsky who have espoused similar thoughts then go for it, but it’s embarrassing that a random guy thinks Twitter is the appropriate medium to making such consequential statements. This is the realm for experts and 30 page academic articles, not 140 character hot takes.
I think the Watergate comparison is useful, if not exactly analogous. Nothing Trump has done n his capacity as President, to public knowledge, is as blatantly illegal as what Nixon did. I suppose arguments could be made here that some of the conflicts of interest stuff are as bad, but Watergate was prima facie illegal to the best of my knowledge. You can invoke Nixon without going too far and saying the Trump scandals are the exact same thing.
I definitely think you have a point about the necessity of a critical mass moving against Trump. Nothing else is going to prompt Congressional action, besides something so blatant they have no choice, e.g. a smoking gun that conclusively proves that Trump gave state secrets to the Russians in exchange for help beating HRC or something similarly groundbreaking. Onus is definitely on the citizenry to demonstrate their disapproval in the most public way possible.
A good example of this is the recent protests in South Korea demanding the resignation of President Park Geun-hye. These protests lasted for months, and brought millions of people to the streets of Seoul. Nothing the “Resistance” has accomplished has come close to that besides the Women’s March which lasted for one day.
If you’re really angry about this, you need to be out on the street. Tomorrow’s Nov. 4 protests are a good place to start. If you aren’t out on the street, I think your calls for immediate impeachment lose some legitimacy.
rumpole
@Trentrunner: Right. There’s no difference between Gillespie and Northam. Just like there was no difference between Hillary and Trump. Go home and wash your purity pony.
Sherparick1
@SatanicPanic: I agree with you completely. I am voting for Northam, donating to him, and working for him. But he has run not a run a good campaign and he has let Gillespie set the pace. Where Trentrunner wants Northam to lose and the objectively racist cynical Gillespie to win, I say that is crazy. But I can still point out that Northam has not run a good campaign and has not done what needs to do to inspire the Democratic Base (e.g. tie Trump around Gillespie’s throat and say a vote for Gillespie is a vote for Trump and Corey Stewart). We have to be able to criticize our Democratic pols so that they can do better. They have to disenthrall themselves from the Democratic Political Consultant borg which so dominates Democratic political campagns.
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone:
She’s running for president and playing to her base.
zzyzx
First rule of trying to stop Nazis is to, y’know, try to stop them instead of coming up for reasons why it’s not worth your effort this time.
@debit: They’re helping just fine. It’s just that their goal isn’t the same as the rest of us.
SatanicPanic
@Corner Stone: Democrats need to take a page from Republicans’ book and learn to say “I don’t think that’s important right now, what about Trump’s…?”
Jumbo76
Impeachment under a Republican Congress is extremely unlikely regardless of the need for them to pass tax cuts. It would be asking Republicans to tell their constituents that those constituents cannot have the president that they elected. Members of Congress are dependent on the same voters to get elected. Republicans who vote to impeach Trump would either drive down their own turn out (best case scenario) or spur primary challenges against themselves. It will literally never happen.
Barbara
@Sherparick1: Northam is not running as Republican light. I have no idea why you are saying that. That was the same kind of drivel that was directed at McAuliffe and it turned out to be 100% wrong. You know who is Republican light? Perriello. Oh, I know, he has apologized for some of it, whatever, he is pro gun and kind of soft on abortion. No politician is going to hit every sweet spot. Making the perfect the enemy of the better borders on insanity when it involves something that actually matters.
Corner Stone
@Trentrunner: Get it or don’t get it, whatever. Chasing after people who will not be there when you need them is foolish.
Barbara
@Major Major Major Major: Does Warren’s base not include women or African Americans who voted for Clinton? I’m confused.
Barbara
@Sherparick1: Okay, do you not get mailings from the campaign? Because that’s exactly what they say.
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major: I’ve got some news for her.
Brachiator
@Cheryl Rofer:
What? As much as we all might hate Trump, it is open to question whether his violation of “norms” rises to the level of “high crimes or misdemeanors.”
Resistance is hard and ain’t for chickens. Consider Spain, where the people of Catalonia voted for independence, and now see their leaders arrested and their autonomy withdrawn. Those who were satisfied with the outcome of the elections in Kenya demanded that their supporters boycott the repeat of the national elections and are flirting with open civil war. The Kurdish move towards independence was shut quickly shut down.
The Republicans are not going to back away from Trump anytime soon and are unlikely to support impeachment no matter what Mueller comes up with.
Major Major Major Major
@SatanicPanic: Then Trentrunner would accuse them of running against Trump instead of proposing a positive agenda, because they know the voters will never buy their mealy-mouthed neoliberalism.
@Corner Stone @Barbara: Gotta win the primary first and her base is the Berniecrats.
SatanicPanic
@Sherparick1: Awesome! I’m going to be volunteering my rep next year, starting in January (I live in a lean blue district) and I don’t agree with all of his stances. But I figure volunteering at least puts me in contact with people who can make change and I can criticize him to people who actually matter, not voters who might decide to stay home. But the message everyone on the left needs to get is- vote for Democrats. Want change? Vote for Democrats? Don’t like Donald Trump? Vote for Democrats. Always and every time, vote for Democrats. If people want to compare that to a football game, great. Let’s imagine a game where if your team doesn’t win YOU DIE POOR AND SICK. Because that’s the reality.
Trentrunner
@Corner Stone: Exactly. Northam chasing after Trump voters with his racist sanctuary city stand IS foolish, indeed. And it might have just cost him this election.
Also ITT: People who say race and immigration are not “core” Democratic issues, YOU are the problem.
SatanicPanic
@Brachiator:
It absolutely is. Politics isn’t debate club. Trump is guilty and a known traitor. If you’re putting more thought into it you’re doing it wrong.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
and now Keith Ellison agrees this is a good time to talk about the inside baseball of a Democratic presidential primary
a year ago I heard a lot from his supporters about how he understood the importance of local and off-year elections and how to win them
ETA: and I should add, he made a pretty strong case for himself in that regard– guess he forgot
FlipYrWhig
@Trentrunner: Who the fuck are you? Because you are as gross a motherfucking liar as Ed Gillespie. “Race baiting” because of some late-breaking remark? Fuck yourself raw until you’ve turned your body inside out from the friction.
Corner Stone
@Trentrunner: Only if all the potential D voters in VA are as fucking stupid as you seem to be.
Barbara
@Trentrunner: People of color? This isn’t about people of color. It’s about undocumented immigrants, some of whom have dark skin, but many don’t, and many people of color — and certainly all who are voting — are American citizens even if they are also immigrants.
But her emails!!!
@Major Major Major Major:
She’s making a mistake. I’m her base. I vote in every election, including the primaries nobody else bothers to vote in.
Jeffro
I think the Dems better hurry up and find a way to grab some attention here and talk about how close we are to having the president* indicted…then watching as the GOP Congress does nothing about it. This would include a pitch to independents, the relatively sane 20% of the GOP, and even non-voters…”we need to come together quickly to stop this gang of looters and arsonists, before we’re past the point of no return. Just like with Russia hacking our election, Trumpov’s election, a potential nuclear exchange with North Korea – it will be unthinkable, until it happens”
Major Major Major Major
@But her emails!!!: If this isn’t working for you then you are not in fact her base, or at least not the one she aspires to have/is pandering to.
@Jeffro: I seem to remember a woman trying something like that about a year ago.
low-tech cyclist
So, how do we keep pricks like Trentrunner from hijacking an entire thread? We need a plan here.
Trentrunner
@Barbara: The sanctuary cities debate is a proxy fight about Trumpism’s racism and anti-immigration xenophobia. (Look at Gillespie’s ads.) If you can’t see that, Northam can, which is why it was cowardly and racist of him to take that position.
rikyrah
Could not have happened without the assistance of a GOP Senate, who refused to fully evaluate them.
Tom Daschle had to withdraw because of a tax issue for thousands.
These folks didn’t fill out SHYT, with regards to the disclosure forms, and were shoved through.
As much as I want to, can’t blame this on Dolt45. This existed before him.
once again, purse your lips to tell me if 44 had done 1/100th of this, that he wouldn’t already be impeached.
Impeachment and prison will resolve it.
Barbara
@Major Major Major Major: Well I guess she should plan on losing.
Trentrunner
@low-tech cyclist: I may be a prick, but I am on topic. :)
FlipYrWhig
@But her emails!!!: I like Elizabeth Warren, OK, but somehow we’ve built up the myth of how everyone everywhere obviously loves Elizabeth Warren, when she didn’t do particularly well by Massachusetts standards and her higher-profile policy speeches have all been lackluster. She’s starting to go down Weiner-Grayson Lane as the person who goes on TV with a zinger, basks in the adulation, and doesn’t do that much else.
gene108
@Corner Stone:
Racism will keep elections close for the foreseeable future, in my opinion. White resentment will be the fulcrum our politics will be bent over for the next few years, because there was once a black man elected to the Presidency.
Barbara
@Trentrunner: No, it isn’t. Sorry to disagree with you.
NotMax
@Jeffro
It’s like building a bonfire with very wet wood. It can successfully be set alight but takes several orders of magnitude more kindling than usual.
With any luck, Mueller is out gathering a sh*tload of kindling.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Trentrunner:
Please eat shit and die, you fucking idiot.
“Once the social fascists, the Social Democrats, are destroyed, true communism will take over!”
-German communist, 1932
Amaranthine RBG
@Trentrunner:
A hard rain’s a gonna fall.
It’s about time.
dogwood
Why do people even respond to trolls like Trentrunner?
MJS
@Trentrunner: You calling something “foolish” while at the same time advocating for another Republican Governor would be amusing if it wasn’t so sad. And in advocating for a Republican Governor, you are abetting the racism you claim to abhor. If Gillespie wins, make sure you tell all the POC you know that it was for their own good.
Barbara
@FlipYrWhig: Warren understands certain issues better than anyone else and was and can be a true voice for economic regulation that protects consumers. Richard Cordray is even better, IMHO, and i hope he runs for something soon. I don’t want Warren to run for president. I think there are better candidates.
Major Major Major Major
@dogwood: Is TR a troll? I don’t have any negative memories, or didn’t until now.
There are other trolls in this thread I’m ignoring, though.
Yutsano
@low-tech cyclist: Pie? Pie.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: I’m generally a Warren fan, too, but if this is her presidential campaign, it doesn’t bode well for her. The most generous case for her, that she doesn’t want to talk about Brazille but keeps getting asked, shows a pretty weak candidate. “Judy, trump and the Republicans are proposing a budget and tax proposal based on their only idea: That the rich in this country have it too hard, and hard-working middle-class families have it too easy, that Wall St needs a tax cut and Main St needs to pay for it. That’s a lot more important than the inside-baseball sniping of political consultants in a two year old primary process….”
That’s off the top of my head and I’m a dumb guy in a blog thread
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@dogwood:
I remember Trentrunner commenting all the time a few years back. They didn’t act trollish then. I think they’re sincere. Just stupid and short-sighted.
Trentrunner
@dogwood: Because they are afraid that I am right. They know that Northam did something morally unforgivable and politically stupid. They are hoping that it won’t matter. It already has.
zhena gogolia
@low-tech cyclist:
I believe it’s called don’t feed the troll.
Betty Cracker
@chuck_da_kid:
I’m not a lawyer, but Trump did confess to Lester Holt on live TV that he fired the FBI director over the Russia investigation, and he uses his office every day to enrich himself and his family. Congress lacks the political will for impeachment, not the grounds.
schrodingers_cat
@Major Major Major Major: I will vote against her in D primaries if she runs for President.
Gravenstone
@Trentrunner:
And you deserve to never be allowed the franchise again, as you are demonstrably too stupid to exercise it effectively. Now, kindly find the nearest conflagration and leap into its crimson embrace, you fucking moron.
gene108
@Corner Stone:
Isn’t getting Hillary locked up one of his campaign promises? Didn’t the GOP make locking Hillary up the centerpiece of one night of their nominating convention?
Locking Hillary up is one of the top priorities of the Trump Administration based on the 2016 campaign.
Barbara
@Amaranthine RBG: Says the man who will defend the poor downtrodden race baiting white working class with his last dying breath. Talk about someone who would sell out the interests of people of color. The both of you are pathetic.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Trentrunner:
I’m sure that moral rectitude will save you from the gas chamber, Trent, when the real fascists come for you for being a libtard. Maybe the Richard Spencer worsipping guard will let you go at the last minute? Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: in fairness, trentrunner is a fairly long standing commenter whose emoprog tendencies seem to have revved up to meltdown. Amaranthine Steve? That’s a pure troll
Corner Stone
@gene108: I meant someone with some backbone and moral standing. You know, Ghost of Dude Who Told Nixon He Had to Resign?
KithKanan
@low-tech cyclist: I don’t see how an expanded Fairness Doctrine can be squared with the first amendment.
The Fairness Doctrine could be imposed on broadcast as a condition of leasing the limited public-owned broadcast spectrum. Cable and particularly Internet news don’t rely on public resources in quite the same way, and are probably closer to newspapers (which have never had a fairness doctrine and had a history of being extremely partisan long before the first amendment was ratified)
But her emails!!!
@Major Major Major Major:
I define a politician’s voting base as the people that actually get off their butts and vote for them in the primaries and general election. What a politician thinks their base is or wishes their base to be is largely irrelevant. For example, if I were to run for local dog catcher and win on the votes of catholic nuns and high school and college basketball fans that would be my base. It doesn’t matter if I were to think it’s actually guys who drive pickup trucks and members of the US national swimming team.
Betty Cracker
@Trentrunner: Wait — did you just say that people are responding to you because they’re afraid you might be right? Okay, now I’m beginning to suspect you’ve suffered a head injury. If so, I hope you get the treatment you need!
FlipYrWhig
FYI, I live in Virginia, follow politics obscenely closely by comparison to normal people, and only know about this “sanctuary cities” foofaraw that’s apparently unforgivable and no more than a day and a half old by about two layers of proxy. The whole thing has a distinct whiff of “people pontificating from a distance while showing off their vicarious wokeness on Twitter.”
Amaranthine RBG
@Barbara:
People like you are why Trump is president.
Own it.
NotMax
@schrodingers_cat
She’s not about to run. Have respect aplenty for M‐ but also have no idea from what subterranean cubbyhole that was pulled.
J R in WV
@Trentrunner:
While I’m glad John Cole keeps the light on for everyone, I think you are a pretty sad example of the everybody showing up late at night. The amount of wrong you show seems impossible for the mere Internet to hold.
If you really believe voting for a Republican in these times is the correct thing to do, you are an ignorant ass. But I don’t think you believe it, I think you are promulgating propaganda designed to harm America and the people visiting this site. I won’t be pieing you, so I can keep an eye on you. The other things I am tempted to say are violent, so I must stop here.
Folks, don’t pay attention to the troll, it’s an agitator with no integrity.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
or, that Ghost not responding to our summons, the Living Saint who currently occupies that guy’s Senate seat. Or his recently Beatified junior colleague. Or the five-foot-seven tower of rectitude and party-before-country named Corker, may he recover rapidly from the apparent case of laryngitis that hit him in the middle of last week. Or…
What was that SNL mock-commercial for the Hero To Be Determined, or something like that?
TenguPhule
As I recall, all of your options involved Republicans not being fascist traitors to the Republic.
Trentrunner
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: “Meltdown”? Perhaps. But Northam melted himself down with his foolish, damning sanctuary cities position.
If you Berniebros wanna keep telling us that POC’s fight can be marginalized and should just wait, keep it up.
And enjoy your permanent minority in all branches of government, at all levels…
NotMax
@NotMax
My bad on coding.
M⁴
Major Major Major Major
@But her emails!!!: Her ‘voting base’ might currently be MA democrats, but since she’s obviously exploring a run for president, this is her establishing her bona fides with Bernie’s 2016 national base.
@NotMax: You don’t think EW is thinking of running for president?
SatanicPanic
@Trentrunner: Literally no one here has argued that what he did was a good idea. I’m a Mexican American and I was appalled. But that doesn’t change the fact that he’d be better than the guy who ran the racist campaign in the first place.
Elizabelle
@Trentrunner: Fuck you.
You guys, have you not noticed how divisive Trentrunner is?
Troll, for sure. Fuck him. With a chainsaw.
ETA: And I hope to god he is not Doug! That is the opposite of readership capture.
But her emails!!!
@Trentrunner:
You do realize that you’re getting hammered by both Hillbots and Bernie Bros, right?
Cheryl Rofer
@Major Major Major Major:
I’m seeing a lot good in this thread. Trentrunner’s purity demands are getting a lot of pushback. Democrats need to win that election.
@Corner Stone:
@Jeffro:
I’d like to see more of this too, but I think it may be too soon. If the Dems seize impeachment as an issue, it will be harder for the Repubs to support them. And Repub support will be necessary in this Congress. It’s also necessary to wait a bit until more of the potential articles of impeachment are firmer. There is a lawsuit in progress on emoluments that is getting some good amicus briefs filed. We need more on the Russia connections. Got to set that hook before we try to reel this in.
I’ll push back on the idea that there is no way a Republican House would impeach. Not right now, it is true. But after they have lost on the tax bill, they have nowhere to go. (And we need to make sure they lose on that bill – Continue to call!) Trump is part of the reason they are losing, and they know that. And if they start losing those special elections – so Virginians, vote for Northam on Tuesday! Trump is not really a Republican, and this bunch has been very willing to declare their losers RINOs. It’s a long shot, but we can increase the chances by keeping up the pressure.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
Talk about a massive talent for understatement.
In a sane world, Donald Trump would have long ago gone to the gallows to serve as a warning to future generations of Americans that crime does not fucking pay.
Trentrunner
@J R in WV: I have my arguments. You have your threats.
I never said “Vote for Gillespie”. He’s a racist trafficker who should DIAF. As should his voters.
But I also said that Northam endorsing racism-lite is WRONG, morally bankrupt, and politically stupid, perhaps suicidal.
The (electoral) beatings will continue until MORALITY improves.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amaranthine RBG:
No, Trump is President for a variety of reasons. Russian interference, voter suppression, racism, mysoginy, etc. Those are the reasons. Almost half of all voters, mostly whites, fell for his spell. Some wanted the ni*gers to once again know their place (women too), keep out the illegals. Others truly believed he would make America great again. Those were especially stupid. I believe it’s people like you who continue to try to explain away the racism of American whites are part of why Trump still clings to power and a third of Americans live in an alternate reality.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@But her emails!!!: HEY! I’m an O-Bot, if you don’t mind.
Spanky
@Major Major Major Major:
Yeah, I’ve been watching this thread unfold with some amazement. Something ain’t right here.
And ignoring trolls is the best way to keep threads from being derailed.
kindness
This idea that we need to come together as a country to work to better our lot is nice but it’s missing one ingredient: Republicans. Republicans did everything they could to sink the country into an even worse morass after the 2008/9 economic collapse and election of Obama. They continued to try to kill the country for Obama’s entire administration all simply to increase their chances of winning the next elections. And now that they have all 3 branches of elected government they still refuse to let Democratic voices into the mix.
It’s a nice idea but I’m tired of fighting with one arm tied behind my back just because it is polite.
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
No I don’t, and see zero evidence to to support the assertion.
Elizabelle
@Spanky: I have thought several times previously that Trentrunner might be a troll.
It has just removed all proof. And I wish people would ignore this jackhole and not inspire it to comment more.
What’s more, what is wrong with abortion being “safe, legal and rare.” We should all hope for that. Better contraception and sexual health education can help a lot there. It’s effective.
Who the fuck aspires to have an abortion?
Also, am pretty sure Bill Clinton and others have expressed exactly that sentiment. It’s humane.
Major Major Major Major
@Cheryl Rofer: Newell notes in the Slate article I mentioned that Republicans rather surprisingly suffered losses in 1998 while running on impeachment. It’s obviously not the world’s best parallel but it’s the only available precedent.
ETA I also think we need to watch out for the appearance that we are pursuing impeachment for partisan gain. Hear me out. In the Scott Walker recall, even voters who hated his agenda voted against the recall because they thought it was the wrong way to deal with an unpopular politician.
But her emails!!!
@Major Major Major Major:
Well, she’ll have more time to run for President if she’s no longer a Senator. Plus, if she’s going to run for President, it’s best she be replaced by voters so that our current Republican Governor doesn’t get to choose who occupies her seat until the special election. There’s not exactly a inexhaustible supply of nonwingnut Republicans in Massachusetts. Baker may be the last.
Amir Khalid
@Amaranthine RBG:
Your nym bothers me. You seem to be wishing that a particular Supreme Court Justice will die soon, even if it means Trump gets to appoint her replacement.
Back on topic. Right now the line of succession is all Republicans, and all of them potentially in Special Counsel Mueller’s line of fire. Suppose Mueller digs up enough evidence to wreck their credibility, but not enough to prosecute them. A Republican president could, in the wake of Mueller’s efforts, conceivably take office damaged from the get-go, it seems to me.
SatanicPanic
@Major Major Major Major: Clinton was popular though. Donald Trump is not.
Barbara
@Amaranthine RBG: The reason Trump is president is because of misogyny. Why don’t you move back to West Virginia and own your heritage? Those poor saintly WWC, if ONLY someone tried to pander to them, I am sure they would start voting Democratic tomorrow! Talk about delusion.
chuck_da_kid
@SatanicPanic:
What is your basis for saying this?! This is not a settled area. Trump is not conclusively guilty of treason based on the knowledge the public has. There are arguments to be made that his activities could qualify as treason, maybe, but acting like this a settled issue is grossly misrepresenting reality.
There’s a thing called nuance. It’s important.
MomSense
@Trentrunner:
Sending a message is more important than the actual harm Gillespie would do???
Yutsano
@Cheryl Rofer: Pelosi called this right. Don’t make the removal of Dolt45 the centre of your campaign. Instead, focus on your local issues and races, and once you’ve won THEN we’ll see about removing His Orangeness.
Amir Khalid
@Elizabelle:
“Removed all proof”, or “removed all doubt”?
H.E.Wolf
We accomplish a lot more of our agenda when we put some actual time into GOTV and election volunteering activities – including phone banking, poll monitoring, whatever smokes your shorts.
Me, I’m doing GOTV data entry and getting the band back together: a dozen volunteers spanning almost 5 decades in age. We get stuff done. :)
Small actions accomplish big things. Join us – and please report back. It’s great to hear what people are doing.
Gravenstone
@Trentrunner:
Well, there’s some megaplex levels of projection…
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Trentrunner:
You’re not thinking big picture moron. Do you not think of the consequences of Northam loss and the effects that would have on future elections? Also the willingness of the GOP to impeach Trump? The guy fucked up I agree. But this is no time for moral purity over pragmatism. If Gillipse wins a lot more people will suffer.
Elizabelle
@Amir Khalid: Thank you.
Removed all doubt.
Typing while lunching. Sorry.
Does anyone else worry that Trentrunner might be Doug!? If so, I hate this shit.
Major Major Major Major
@NotMax: What sort of evidence would change your mind, at this early date, other than “it seems like it to me” and “everybody seems to think so”, the same burden we’re using when we talk about pretty much any other prospective candidate three years out?
Elizabelle
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: You are fighting with, and encouraging, a troll.
SatanicPanic
@chuck_da_kid: the left is going to nuance our way into a dictatorship if we’re not careful. What more evidence do you need? The guy was sharing military secrets in a meeting with Russians several months ago.
Brachiator
@SatanicPanic:
Actually, politics IS debate club. And impeachment is more a political act than a legal one.
You think Trump is guilty, of what, exactly?
I hate Trump as much as anyone here, but political reality, right now, says he ain’t going anywhere. Let’s see what else Mueller has and what he does with it.
Cheryl Rofer
@Trentrunner:
I had to laugh at that one. Elections are not about morality, nor should they be. That is what VP Pence would like: to show his morality as the winner in his election. Do you believe that morality is the reason he and Trump won?
Elections are about what people will do in office, and not simply on one issue. In Virginia, the choice is between a package, some good and some bad, named Ralph Northam, and a package, mostly bad, named Ed Gillespie. It looks clear to me.
rikyrah
@Aleta:
I guess POW time suffices as ‘ time served’.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Elizabelle:
Perhaps counter-trolling will work?
Major Major Major Major
@Cheryl Rofer:
‘mostly’?
Cheryl Rofer
@Major Major Major Major: Yes.
But her emails!!!
@Trentrunner:
The electoral beating will continue so long as voters don’t turn out to vote. That’s all there is to this.
Also, have you considered the impact of what will happen if voters sit this one out for Northam? The governors’ race is the highest profile race this cycle. If people don’t intend to vote for him, there’s a decent chance they won’t turn out at all which will impact all down ticket races. If Northam loses, there’s a good chance that all or many of the reasonably close down ticket races with acceptably pure candidates, including attorney general go down with him.
Amir Khalid
@chuck_da_kid:
It might not be treason per the US Constitution’s definition, but Trump as POTUS has consistently acted to undermine the US’ best interests in both domestic and international matters. And while there is such a thing as nuance, there is also such a thing as splitting hairs.
TenguPhule
We hope we still live in one, you mean. Nobody wants to think the unthinkable.
Yes, to double down on voter suppression and manipulation.
I wish I was being too cynical about this. But GOP past performance has indeed been predictive of future results.
Our last best hope is that Mueller’s investigation serves as the wedge needed to start getting resignations from Republicans. But that only works if our fucking Democratic party can stop the circular firing squads and rally together in one fucking direction for a change, like in 2006 & 2008. If the media manages to conflate the 2016 primary with the general election tampering, and enough people are stupid enough to fall for it, then its not going to end well for anyone.
Trentrunner
@Elizabelle: [sigh] “Rare” is code for shaming women into not having abortions or to feel shame for having had them. Is it 1994?
We still have a lot of educating to do, apparently, on both feminism AND racism.
SatanicPanic
@Brachiator: I didn’t say he was going anywhere, I’m saying he’s guilty.
Trentrunner
@But her emails!!!: I have considered all this.
I wish Northam had. :(
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
Fundraising for one. Carefully staged appearances in Iowa, for two.
Frankly, premature to speculate on who might or might not be running. The midterms will prompt (or unprompt) many such a decision.
Playing presidential horse race, frankly, detracts from the focus due the midterms.
TenguPhule
@But her emails!!!:
And the GOP will work as hard as possible to ensure that those who do turn out to vote, can’t.
Amaranthine RBG
@chuck_da_kid:
When someone believes that Republican congressmen will vote to impeach Trump, it is sort of pointless to argue nuance with them.
They’re deluded.
Probably the same sort of moron who was “highly confident” that Clinton would win in the days before the election.
Republican would be a tiny ridiculed minority in this country now were it not for the monumental dumbassery coming from the D side that enables. them.
Cheryl Rofer
@Major Major Major Major: I like to believe there is some good in everyone. ?
Yutsano
@rikyrah: Soonergrunt put some insight on this on Twitter. Because Dolt45 opened his ugly orange orifice, the judge can take that to mean there was prejudice in the hearing. Basically, the Hairy Yam got him off.
Ruckus
@debit:
Trentrunner is either trolling us all or has gone round the bend. He never laid out crap like this before, that I can remember.
OTOH, trentrunner, have you learned noting in the last 18 yrs? You do understand that we live in binary politics, don’t you? You go to war with the army you have, not the one on the drawing board. Ideal candidate is an oxymoron. Best candidate is not. If you have decent politicians in charge, you don’t need sanctuary cities. Those are an answer to the shit heads that are currently in charge. They are not the best answer, they are not the only answer. We can be better, better being the operative word. Perfect is a long way off, and it always is. Perfect is the perpetual motion of ideas. It doesn’t exist and never will.
chuck_da_kid
@Betty Cracker:
Yeah, you definitely aren’t a lawyer. The answer to whether the things you mention constitute illegal behavior is, as it almost always is when it comes to these kinds of legal matters, it depends.
Saying “Trump is enriching himself and his family and that is illegal!!!!” is wrong on many levels. These are not conclusively proven statements. It is not clear that Trump is illegally enriching himself and his family using his office.
“But of course he is! Of course foreign dignitaries will stay at his hotel because he’s President!!!”
Sure, that is probably the case. But you can’t prove it. And it’s not settled whether this would be “illegal enrichment”.
If you want to say “I think Donald Trump’s behavior should constitute illegality”, that’s fine. Even if you say “I think Donald Trump’s behavior does constitute illegality”, that’s alright, you’re allowed to have an opinion, even an uninformed one.
But to say “Donald Trump’s behavior is grounds for illegality” is just ridiculous. There are brilliant and accomplished lawyers arguing both sides of these issues, and ultimately that’s all they have, is arguments. Exactly what the President can and cannot do is not established law.
For you to come on the Internet without any background knowledge or expertise and decide that your opinion is tantamount to an accurate description of reality is incredibly arrogant. You’ll notice that I am not opining on the legality of Trump’s behavior. Why? Because I know enough to know that I don’t know anything.
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner: You haven’t replied to my video of obama saying “safe, legal, and rare” in 2010. Was that a dealbreaker for you then, or for abortion-rights absolutists, or women in general?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
And it turned out so well for them when he removed all their other avenues of peaceful redress.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Trentrunner:
From your comments, it sure sounds like you haven’t. In fact I don’t think you’re a real liberal or a real American.
Major Major Major Major
@Cheryl Rofer: I stopped believing that about Republican politicians.
schrodingers_cat
@Cheryl Rofer: Even the current President? I cannot name a single redeeming quality, can you?
TenguPhule
@chuck_da_kid:
Mar Ga Largo.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Only the politicians?
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: Scott Walker canceled elections???
TenguPhule
@chuck_da_kid:
Hillary was convicted in public opinion on much less.
Sauce for the Gander, this time.
Trentrunner
@Major Major Major Major: Obama also patronizingly didn’t want OTC birth control “because I don’t want my daughters to see that.”
He also called Kamala Harris hot “for an AG.”
Obama is not the feminist saint you’re looking for. NONE OF US IS. His “rare” aspiration is part of a series.
This is all very disappointing for women and POC.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@chuck_da_kid:
But condescension is just fine.
Emma
Oooooh. Trolls are out. I wonder why.
Major Major Major Major
@NotMax: Fair enough, and I agree that “Playing presidential horse race, frankly, detracts from the focus due the midterms.” However, trying to secure Bernie’s base is the simplest explanation I can think of for Warren’s actions. Perhaps momentary idiocy is more likely.
CaseyL
This emo-prog crap, which gave us Presidents Reagan, Bush II, and Trump, is making me re-evaluate my feelings about the 1968 anti-war insurgency that drove LBJ from office.
I’m beginning to wonder if that era’s version of emo-progs fueled not only Gene McCarthy’s campaign, but Bobby Kennedy’s campaign as well. The riots in Chicago look, in retrospect, like ratf*ckery; and the lack of liberal turnout which helped elect Nixon looks like a bunch of spoiled emo-progs deciding not to play anymore.
Or, if it was all sincere, maybe the horror and tragedy of 1968 provided Russia with a template for future use.
FFS.
chuck_da_kid
@SatanicPanic:
But does that constitute treason as defined by the law?
Treason does not equal what you think it does. It’s a legal term of art that gets it’s meaning from context and precedent. You can say “In my opinion what Trump has done is tantamount to treason and he should be impeached.” That’s fine.
Saying, “Trump is guilty of Treason” without any sort of discussion of what treason entails from a legal perspective, whether Trump has met this definition, and whether his position as POTUS afford him an affirmative defense is just silly.
Coming to a conclusion on these kind of matters from a legal perspective is a job for experts spending hundreds of hours researching and writing. Not utterly unqualified Internet commentators. If you want to frame your opinion as opinion then go ahead, but it’s ridiculous to frame it as fact.
dogwood
@FlipYrWhig:
“We” didn’t really decide anything about Warren. She has strong promoters here who labeled her their hero Senator Professor and lots of people just climbed aboard. She underperformed in Mass. in a presidential year. And if Trump weren’t in the White House, I’D hazard a guess she would struggle against a not so batshit crazy Repub. in a more typical midterm election cycle. The fact that she doesn’t recognize her limitations as a national candidate is a bit scary to me.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Every other means. For elections, he can count on the traditional Republican methods to ensure that the governor remains Republican.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Trentrunner:
I see you’ve never responded to my comments to you. Just like the spineless coward you are.
Elizabelle
@Trentrunner: You are dead to me. Your “education” is educating us in a way you may not perceive.
Fuck off.
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner:
I wasn’t looking for a feminist saint. You, however, used a politician saying “safe, legal, and rare” as an example of the sort of backwards regression to the early 90’s that meant they deserved to lose liberal support.
I’m done talking to you by the way.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Trentrunner:
Jeez, dude, I live here. So forgive me if I give a hearty fuck you to you.
Cheryl Rofer
@Major Major Major Major: I stopped voting for them maybe a decade ago. I try to stay agnostic as to their degree of good or evil.
@schrodingers_cat: You WOULD have to make this difficult!
chuck_da_kid
@TenguPhule:
Oh my God what does that have to do with the question of whether he’s guilty of treason from a legal perspective? I agree with your point but it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
SatanicPanic
@Ruckus: The dude is burning up strawmen like a Celtic pagan in some 70s horror film
TenguPhule
@chuck_da_kid:
Once again, Hillary Clinton was convicted in public opinion on much less.
Elizabelle
@Emma:
Yep.
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
The people in that state were either supremely wise, or dumbasses.
During the California recall, Gray Davis had become unpopular and lost the support of the citizens, and recall was a legal and available remedy. I had mixed feelings about the recall effort, but I totally resented and dismissed the nonsense coming from establishment media, particularly the LA Times political columnists who insisted that since the people had voted for Gray Davis, they had an obligation to stick with him until the end of his term no matter what.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Came for the 2nd U.S Civil War, got the Dem Civil War instead. Hey Trentrunner do you even caucus bro?
SatanicPanic
@chuck_da_kid: Lol wut, we all have to consult lawyers now before stating the obvious, OK dude
Amaranthine RBG
@chuck_da_kid:
“Because it’s how I ___feel____ ” is solid empirical support in these parts.
Major Major Major Major
@Brachiator:
As the “zen story” at the start of Principia Discordia ends,
Betty Cracker
@chuck_da_kid:
LOL! This thread was already a stupid sundae before your initial contribution. But your gobsmacking lack of self awareness as you pompously berate people for having opinions on the internet in inaccurate detail is the moronic cherry on top! I salute you!
Trentrunner
@Major Major Major Major: LOL no I’m done talking to YOU. Trump ego tics are contagious, apparently. :)
Look, Northam probably blew the election by kowtowing to racists. OF COURSE it would be better if he didn’t lose. But now he probably will. Is that my fault, or his?
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
IMHO, Wilmer’s base is loud and nothing more.
Empty barrels make the most noise.
Elizabelle
Fresh thread?
This one be a bit troll-infested.
Amaranthine RBG
@TenguPhule:
Which might be remotely persuasive if the matter were up for a vote in the Court of Public Opinion.
TenguPhule
@chuck_da_kid:
We’re talking politics, not legal cases.
Trump is a fucking traitor. He may actually have been dumb enough to meet the legal definition of the term in the Constitution but that shouldn’t stop us from defining him as a fucking traitor.
Corner Stone
@schrodingers_cat:
His children are incredibly able and devoted, and I think that says a lot about Donald. I don’t agree with nearly anything else he says or does, but I do respect that.
chuck_da_kid
@TenguPhule:
Write me a 20 page brief outlining why Mar Lago qualifies as illegal use of his office to enrich himself and his family and i’ll read it. Coming back at my comment with a one word response makes it clear you are missing my point. If you are arguing that his conduct constitutes illegal enrichment then you need to say why from a legal perspective.
Under what statute is guilty of a crime?
Does his conduct meet the threshold level of that conduct as defined by case law?
Does his position as POTUS grant him an affirmative defense against such an accusation?
You are arguing “well this sure likes something illegal to me so he’s guilty.” You can understand why this is a problematic way to go about things.
For the record I am virulently opposed to Donald Trump and i’m not a troll. Just someone appalled at the shallowness of the conversation on this site as it relates to legal issues. I’ll never understand the arrogance of folks who think they can make factual statements about the legality or illegality of conduct without any training. Opinion is fine but please frame it as such.
SatanicPanic
@Betty Cracker: now THAT looks like some DougJ trolling.
EDIT- Chuck’s post that is
Eljai
@H.E.Wolf: Thanks for that. My Indivisible group is great and so is my local Democratic party. They have given me constructive things to do instead of just wringing my hands!
debit
@Trentrunner:
Now I know you’re a troll. It’s not code for anything. It’s a totally justifiable statement. No one wants to have an abortion. I say this as someone who’s had one, so shut up with your fucking mansplaining.
TenguPhule
@Amaranthine RBG: You would prefer a Civil War instead? Because that’s what the alternative looks like.
chuck_da_kid
@TenguPhule:
That’s fine. But frame it as your political opinion, distinct from the legal definition.
Ruviana
@chuck_da_kid: You really need to talk to Omnes.
Major Major Major Major
@SatanicPanic: See also his later response, “Write me a 20 page brief outlining why Mar Lago qualifies as illegal use of his office to enrich himself and his family and i’ll read it.”
LOL
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@chuck_da_kid:
Then Legal Insurrection would probably be more your speed than. Go fuck off there.
Betty Cracker
@SatanicPanic: [smacks forehead] Of course!
Brachiator
@TenguPhule:
Yes, and Trump is guilty in the court of Balloon Juice. Hell, I voted against him twice. Now what?
chuck_da_kid
@Betty Cracker:
What are you even trying to say here? Of course you can have opinions, whether on the Internet or in real life. My beef is with people who are framing their opinions as statements of legal fact. People shouldn’t do that. It’s careless.
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone:
Yes, that he should have been castrated as soon as he hit puberty.
Corner Stone
Northam is going to win the VA Gov race on Tuesday.
germy
Not just rightwing media. I’m constantly hearing questionable bullshit from PBS and NPR. And of course the NYTimes has their moles (cough, maggie haberman). Our typical fox/hate radio listener would consider those outlets hopelessly “librul” and yet here we are.
Boatboy_srq
@Trentrunner: So, Gillespie is an appropriate price for failing liberal orthodoxy? You will take an anti-choice, anti-LGBT, pro-Confederate, anti-ACA governor in VA (where the state legislature is all-but-veto-proof GOTea) just because Northam slipped one time? Fvck you very much and you now owe me my moving expenses.
schrodingers_cat
@Corner Stone: Hi Hillary, how have you been?
Corner Stone
@chuck_da_kid: Damn! That is impressive! I didn’t think anyone here could out burnsy Burnsy! Nicely done, my smug young asshole friend.
TenguPhule
@chuck_da_kid:
Fuck no. We want the public to be conditioned that Republicans are fucking traitors.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@chuck_da_brat:
Oh, shit guys. Chuck da brat is gonna lecture us on having opinions on the interwebs. Watch out, he might challenge us to write a 200 word legal brief on how many letters make up the text of the Constitution!
Corner Stone
@debit: Well, actually…
chuck_da_kid
@Major Major Major Major:
I’m not wrong, you know. Folks can say “I think Donald Trump’s conduct is illegal, and if it isn’t it should be”. But saying “DONALD TRUMP IS ILLEGALLY ENRICHING HIMSELF BCUZ MAR-A-LAGO!!!!1” is just…
Amaranthine RBG
@TenguPhule:
Wha?
The Republican Controlled congress probably wouldn’t vote to impeach even if there were clear evidence of treason.
The idea that some sort of civil war is going to start because they won’t impeach based on a lot of emotional, hand-wavey charges is silly.
Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying?
Major Major Major Major
@chuck_da_kid: Asking somebody for a 20-page essay during an argument on a comment section is stupid, though.
Ruckus
@SatanicPanic:
You aren’t saying he’s on fire are you? I didn’t think so.
But you are right, every strawman in the village.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
If he keeps crossing the aisle to let Trump’s judicial picks through, yes.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
What are you talking about? That’s standard procedure on all the blogs I’ve been on. You’re talking crazy:)
Trentrunner
“What comes next”?
Why, Doug Wilder, the former Governor of Virginia, the first black elected governor of VA declines to endorse Northam.
Y’all knew this shit was coming. Because I TOLD YOU. You fucking kowtow to fucking racists, you will fucking lose.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Trentrunner:
Enjoy suffocating in a gas chamber.
NotMax
@TenguPhule
Everyone should be primaried. No one deserves a free ride.
/perfect world
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone:
Infinity and beyond.
Brachiator
@chuck_da_kid:
This is the Internets. Is this your first time here?
Haw haw haw haw haw!! You a funny, guy.
Ya know, I understand your point, and agree in part, but do you really not understand how the Internet works?
Shalimar
@Trentrunner: You don’t sound disappointed that Northam’s transgressions may cost him the election, since you want him to lose. Everything you write is anti-Democrat. Only the reasons change as necessary.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@TenguPhule: One of Magic GrandPa’s minions is threatening to primary him.
chuck_da_kid
@Major Major Major Major:
So is stating your opinion as a statement of legal fact. This isn’t a perfect analogy, but having an “opinion” on whether Donald Trump’s conduct = treason (from a purely legal perspective) without anything to back it up is kind of like having an opinion on the best way to treat a sucking chest wound without anything to back it up or medical training.
It isn’t quite the same thing, but i’ve noticed that folks are very quick to frame their opinions on legal matters as factual when they would never do so about matters related to another profession. There is a high barrier to entry to having informed opinions about the law. Especially about arcane and murky constitutional questions. You can have your opinion on whether certain conduct violates the constitution all you want, but you should acknowledge that it’s just opinion, and uninformed opinion at that.
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
Because they didn’t have the legal right to vote for independence. Hence, it was treated as an illegal attempt at secession.
Spanky
@TenguPhule: You realize that was a (now famous) quote, right?
NotMax
@Brachiator
Yup. Name o’ da place is Balloon Juice, not Moot Court.
:)
Ruckus
@chuck_da_kid:
Hey moron, this is arguments. Harvard law review is 3 doors down, on the right.
Trentrunner
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Way harsh, Tai.
SatanicPanic
@Major Major Major Major: I am appropriately chastened and going forward will only talk about things that I am an expert in. I think we should all follow suit. Someone please start a thread on “what’s in your belly button?”
chuck_da_kid
@Brachiator:
Hey man, I’m just one guy fighting a lonely crusade against bad legal takes passed off as fact on the Internet. Just let me joust with my windmills in peace.
TenguPhule
@chuck_da_kid:
4 and 3/5th justices on the US Supreme court are evidence this is not true.
Shana
@Sherparick1: This is the exact conversation my 27 year old daughter and I have been having. Virginia Dems used to have to be R-lite, but not any more. The state as a whole has become more Democratic, but the old guard Ds who have been involved for decades haven’t made the shift. They still think they need to run the way they used to despite polling that shows if you run as a Dem you can win.
I’m telling her not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
If nothing else, redistricting comes up while the next administration is in power. Please don’t go all purity pony on us now.
T S
@Trentrunner: Yes, it is a great idea to sit in a room and hot box in our own political purity while the GOP adds another state to the number they need to rewrite the Constitution and end our ability to achieve progressive goals, forever. Good plan.
TenguPhule
@Ruckus:
No its not. Its on the left.
Corner Stone
@chuck_da_kid:
Good Christ. This really is your first time on the interwebs. Or you’re a proto-DougJ. There can be no other alternatives.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@chuck_da_kid:
That’s Professor Chuck for browbeating that lesson into us lowly ignorant commenters. I’m sure without your astute help we would have influenced the entire justice system with our stupidity.
Major Major Major Major
@chuck_da_kid:
I see you’ve never met people’s opinions on medicine and product design.
Trentrunner
@debit: EVERYONE who has had an abortion wants one.
Unless you’re in favor of forced abortions, too.
Ruckus
@TenguPhule:
Not for this one.
SatanicPanic
@Trentrunner: keep burning that strawman bro
TenguPhule
@Spanky: Yes, but I can never resist an open line.
Corner Stone
@Trentrunner: And you do realize (of course), that Wilder says not one word about “sanctuary cities” nor does the article mention the phrase at all?
TenguPhule
@Trentrunner:
This is not true.
3rd trimester abortions, almost no woman wants one, but the alternative is usually their death or a baby born without a skull.
Eric NNY
@Elizabelle: I secretly think all trolls are Doug!
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Trentrunner:
Just trying impress upon you what the consequences are, for you and everyone else. The communists and Social Democrats were the first ones the Nazis sent to concentration camps. Be careful what you wish for.
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner:
???
??????
?
debit
@Trentrunner: Whatever you say, comrade.
chuck_da_kid
So it seems like, besides ad hominems and personal attacks, the modal response to my point is “this is the Internet dude, people are here to argue about opinions.”
Nothing i’ve said is inconsistent with that. I’m not saying any of these opinions are bad. I’m not saying you need to be a constitutional scholar to have an opinion on if Donald Trump is a traitor. I’m just saying it’s careless and inaccurate to say “Donald Trump is a traitor” or “Donald Trump is using his office to illegally enrich himself.” This might seem like a dumb semantic point, but i do think its important.
I also think it’s a little concerning that my reasonable, if irritating, take was denounced as trolling but someone who appears to be a frequent contributor is openly calling for other commenters to be gassed to death. Maybe y’all have a toxic community.
Brachiator
@SatanicPanic:
What, are you biased against people with “outties?” For shame.
Trentrunner
@TenguPhule: “Wants” i.e., wasn’t forced by someone else. The women in the tragic circumstance you describe still chose. CHOSE. Even though every choice in that situation was sad. NO ONE ELSE CHOSE FOR THEM = “wants.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@chuck_da_kid: that’s nice
who the fuck are you when you’re at home?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
Reminds me of one those self-congradulatory (sp?) “Hitchslaps” certain kinds of atheists were so fond of using 3 to 5 years ago.
Boatboy_srq
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Oh, good, I’m not the only one that took him/her/it that way.
Corner Stone
@Eric NNY: I think all of “you” are really DougJ.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@chuck_da_kid: You’re proof that the Internet may turn out to be one of the worst things invented by humans.
chuck_da_kid
@TenguPhule:
Was that… was that a reference to Justice Clarence Thomas utilizing the “3/5” classification for black people?
Jesus. Just moving into casual racism eh? Nice place you have here.
Also, if you think attending the best law schools in the world, excelling at them, being brilliant and having an incredible successful career in law doesn’t meet said high barrier to entry idk what to tell you.
chopper
@Trentrunner:
you said northam “must lose”. given it’s a two-party race, that means gillespie “must win”.
Ruckus
@TenguPhule:
Do read debt’s original comment, then read trentrunner’s again. He changed her argument 180 degrees and then gave her shit. Not only are his arguments getting past ridiculous, now he’s trying to argue with himself.
SatanicPanic
@Brachiator: DAMN SJW! Fine, “what’s in/on/under your belly button?” oh crap, what if someone doesn’t have one? OK
“What is in the vicinity of your abdomen, including all areas above your groin but below your chest?”
GregB
Professional shit stirrers and demoralizer-bits show up on election eves to always recommend that the best remedy for Democrats is to continue losing elections.
Without fail
chuck_da_kid
@Major Major Major Major:
That doesn’t make those opinions right though, does it
GregB
Demoralizer-bots.
Trentrunner
@GregB: Professional Dem politicians engaging in racism-lite in a purple state on the eve of an election seem to be doing a fucking good job of losing the election themselves.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@chuck_da_kid:
I gotta correct you there pardner. I’m not calling for Trentrunner to be gassed to death. I’m using it (admittedly) as a hyperbolic metaphor of what could happen if we always let our purity get in the way of pragmatic actions to stop true evil from winning. I’m asserting that if we allow the GOP to win then it will continue to transform further rightward into a white supremacist fascist party that will persecute liberals (white or otherwise) and anybody else they feel like.
SatanicPanic
@chuck_da_kid: For myself I was merely saying that labeling Donald Trump a traitor is useful, even if it’s not based on law or anything else. Make the right-wing defend his behavior.
geg6
@Corner Stone:
Fuck her. I’ll never vote for her now. If she thinks this kind of shit is going to get her nominated, she’s insane. I will work my ass off to make sure that never happens.
Ruckus
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
I’ll go with commenters who live in ridiculous world as the worst thing ever invented. And trolls! But the internet is a great way to waste your time and life. Look what it’s doing for us this morning.
Major Major Major Major
@chuck_da_kid: But it is a dumb semantic point. Which, of course, the law consists almost entirely of. (Which is mostly a good thing! Although sometimes it leads to judges making the wrong decision because they don’t understand what ‘dog’ means!)
Some people get upset about casual use of the word ‘treason’. Some people get upset about the oxford comma. Me, I get upset when people get too upset about prescriptive usage.
Trentrunner
@GregB: I am not a BOT! I have feelings! And…circuitry. Wait…
Trentrunner
@Major Major Major Major:
The period belongs inside the quotation mark.
rikyrah
Man….we got two trolls on this thread.
Major Major Major Major
@chuck_da_kid: @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Yeah I’m pretty sure Goku was referencing this cartoon
debit
@geg6: I’m at work. What the hell is happening to get that kind of reaction?
Trentrunner
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: “Opposing racism” = “purity”
If privilege could have an orgy, we’d need some bleach at BJ…
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner: I always hated that rule, it seems to violate the spirit of what you’re doing when you’re quoting something, but I follow it (begrudgingly) in my manuscripts. Here, not so much with the giving of shits.
TenguPhule
@Trentrunner:
Now you’re getting silly. This is not Alice in Wonderland.
Trentrunner
@Major Major Major Major: I agree with these sentiments. FUCK THAT RULE.
Boatboy_srq
@Spanky: Pie-ing trolls is both helpful and amusing.
debit
@TenguPhule: Maybe it is. The version where Alice is forcing everyone to have abortions…
Trentrunner
@TenguPhule:
This is the most impossible thing before breakfast in this entire thread.
gvg
@Trentrunner: Dumbass. You are really getting my goat. We have to have more democrats in office right now. Do you remember “Vote for the crook, it’s important” I suggest you look it up if you don’t. Edwards was a CONVICTED crook former governor running against David Duke. People knew he was crooked and probably couldn’t stop himself from stealing again but not electing Duke was important. I felt sorry for his state to have to make such a choice but it was better that he won.
We passed ACA with a lot of barely democrat congress people who lost reelection because of it but we still did the nearly impossible and saved lives because of it.
FDR passed the new deal which had a lot of racist gaming the system to prevent blacks from benefiting but it turned the country around and eventually other reformers were able to build on that beginning to get the new deal to apply to everyone.
I can’t think of much good that has come from purity politics throwing a winnable election. Plenty good has come from holding your nose and voting the better choice. representative democracy is intended to be based on compromises, not everyone insisting all my way or no way.
J R in WV
@Barbara:
OMG, Don’t convince him to move to WV – we’ve plenty of crazy already. Someone stole an ambulance yesterday, with a patient still inside!!! You don’t get much crazier than that, except for Trentputzer and Amadantine redgreenblue…
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Trentrunner:
If it means allowing far greater evil to occur then yes. But that’s not what I really meant and you know that. I can still oppose racism yet still support Northam because I know that Gillipse would be far worse. Not to mention all of the other effects that have been mentioned. This is an issue of scope: big picture vs little picture, not to minimize what Northam said.
There’s a lot at stake here. Like the fate of American democracy. If that falls then you can forget ever worrying about opposing racism ever again because racists will be in charge like they are now. And none of the restraints currently on them.
FlipYrWhig
@Trentrunner:
Wilder pulls this will-he-or-won’t-he every election. He even refused to endorse Obama in 2012.
Eric NNY
@chuck_da_kid: If only it were just your windmills that had to suffer…..
Shalimar
@Trentrunner: No one is disagreeing with you about opposing racism. A significant number of commenters are members of various minority groups who have a more active interest in the discussion than you do. You’re being called out for supporting the Republican against the Democrat in a 2-person race. It isn’t complicated.
Trentrunner
@gvg:
Dem slogan in 2018/20:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: that was my recollection. Doesn’t Wilder have a grudge against all Democrats not named Doug Wilder?
Trentrunner
@Shalimar: I’ve no problem being called out.
I’m saying Northam will lose because he endorsed racism-lite in a time when Dem base don’t buy that shit. Many will stay home. That’s too bad. And that’s Northam’s fault.
I’m saying he will lose because of it.
Happy to take shit for that. Northam blew it. I didn’t.
Eljai
@rikyrah: My pie filter is getting a workout!
FlipYrWhig
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: He’s all over the place. He likes to think of himself as kingmaker.
SatanicPanic
I just pied him. If he’s not going to engage in good faith then it’s not worth my time.
Ruckus
@gvg:
Isn’t this the entire point of trolling?
He wants to do this, he’s not arguing in any legitimate fashion. Don’t let him succeed, pie his ass.
Trentrunner
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Now who’s being pure, Kay?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@SatanicPanic:
Which one? I’m about to as well. Trentrunner might have something approaching a point but has little actual evidence to show for it.
Wjs
The fundamental difference is that Mueller is in control of a massive counterintelligence operation here. There are no parallels to any previous scandal, except that of General James Wilkinson, who was bought and paid for by the Spanish and virtually got away with betraying this country.
This thing with Russia is a thousand times worse than Watergate.
Barbara
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Wilder will never get over having tried to be the first African American candidate for president and not getting any meaningful support. Wilder is a good guy but he is a little . . . unusual. I bet he would be great to sit down and listen to. He has an amazing life story and I still remember listening to his swearing in and getting goose bumps. Justice Powell really did say it best, that it was a great day for the Commonwealth of Virginia.
But her emails!!!
@Trentrunner:
That’s not what you originally said.
debit
@But her emails!!!: You and your logic.
FlipYrWhig
@Trentrunner: Whatever the fuck you’re on about _is not even in the local newspaper for the Hampton Roads area of Virginia_. Why you think “many will stay home” is about as far beyond me as the Oort cloud.
Eljai
@Ruckus: Is this the right room for an argument?
chuck_da_kid
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Oh my bad. Tend to agree with you there, insofar as purity tests are concerned.
ruemara
@Trentrunner: Good goddess. This WOC thinks you can just swallow a cup of shut the fuck up. No, POC are not viewing this as racist. It’s a non-issue because Virginia is very pale and not a sanctuary city state anyway. We’d like to get to the point where we’re not dying from cops hunting us and we don’t have active KKK members in every position of government. We don’t need your type wandering in to burn shit down when we live in the building. We want to win.
@Corner Stone: Power. What we’re seeing is a bunch of dumbasses, doing power grabs at the utterly fucking wrong time.
debit
@debit: @geg6: Never mind. What the hell.
Ruckus
@Eljai:
Of course.
MP is the guiding light.
FlipYrWhig
@ruemara: “Sanctuary cities” is an issue that is of great concern to Spanish-speaking migrants, and to the panicky white people who fear them. It is not an issue of great concern to English-speaking black people. Combining the two is a remarkably disingenuous attempt at sleight of hand. I don’t even know who’s behind this or where it’s getting people all riled up. Is it Twitter? I stay away from Twitter because Twitter is a mite too popular in the Dickface-American community.
SatanicPanic
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Trentrunner. He’s just burning strawmen- no one here thinks Northam’s caving on this is a good idea, we’re just objecting to the idea that it would be a good idea that he would lose.
Shalimar
@Trentrunner: I see the goalposts have unofficially moved. Congratulations. Nice trolling. Goodbye now.
Ben Cisco
That’s some Olympic champion-level sea lioning, Doug!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I replying to Cheryl’s comments – I think there is so much lying, willful ignorance, incompetence and self delusion with a lot of the Right it’s hard to predict what is going to happen. These aren’t rational actors as shown by how easy it was to unmask their crimes. Personally, I think the Constitutional Crises will be less about Impeachment and more about getting Trump out of office. I can see Trump hold up in Mar Largo refusing the relinquish the Presidency just to be an ass.
Gerald Parks
@The Moar You Know: the GOP/Republicans have nothing to fear AND they know it!
Why you ask?
The GOP/Republicans want to BE Putin!
A permanent “democratic” dictatorship lead by them and their policies, lead by their oligarchs!
J R in WV
@chuck_da_kid:
Trump doesn’t need to be legally found guilty of Treason to be impeached. He can be impeached because most members of congress think he should no longer be president. We surely have both “high crimes” and “misdemeanors” committed already.
The Emoluments clause has been broken daily. Having Russian officials visit the Oval Office on the down low QT was stupid and probably broke espionage laws. IANAL, but I have read the Constitution, and commentaries on it as well.
It MAY be that Trump could be indicted, tried and sentenced to prison while living in the White House. That’s unsettled law. It would be difficult for the government if he were in prison… something would have to be done to fix that. I would prefer and hope that Pence et al were indicted, tried and sentenced first.
Brachiator
@SatanicPanic:
Who are supposedly, the only people without belly buttons?
Adam and Eve, because they were created by the deity, and not born.
Also, I was joking with you, not seriously challenging your post. You may have known this, but there is the whiff of acrimony in some exchanges here.
patrick II
@Trentrunner:
A lot of people felt that way about Hillary. Don’t be ridiculous.
J R in WV
@chuck_da_kid:
Stranger, there are legal blogs where people cite chapter and verse legally. This here is NOT one of those blogs.
So you had best get off the high horse you rode in here on afore you have a big fall, after which all the Keng’s men canna put your ass back together with yore haid!!
;-) all
Davebo
Trentrunner’s purity trolling produces over 340 comments on a Friday afternoon.
Sad.
El Caganer
@schrodingers_cat: Totally agree. He is the only person I am aware of that I can’t find even one redeeming quality for.
Davebo
@chuck_da_kid: I’d say you understand arrogance completely.
Ruckus
@El Caganer:
Name 5 other people that work under him (don’t take the word work literally of course) who have one or more redeeming qualities. Show your work. I’l wait.
Brachiator
@J R in WV:
The Constitution provides that the president can be removed from office upon conviction by the Senate.
In my fantasy world, Paul Ryan steps down and is replaced by Hillary Clinton as Speaker of the House (who does not have to be an elected member of the House). Pence is removed from office, and then Trump, and Hillary becomes president as the next Constitutional officer in the line of succession.
drdavechemist
@Trentrunner: Disagree. “Rare” to me means advocating for universal, fact-based sex and relationship education and universal access to effective and affordable birth control, including for teenagers who are afraid to talk about it to their parents. Put those in place and the need for abortion as a form of birth control is dramatically reduced, leaving it in place only for instances when effective birth control is less than 100% effective and cases when it truly is about preserving the life and health of the mother or when the fetus isn’t viable or would have a quality of life so severely compromised that a decision to terminate the pregnancy is a kindness to all involved.
debit
@drdavechemist: See, you tried using logic, but now he’s going to accuse you of wanting to force people to have abortions. Just roll with it.
Cheryl Rofer
@Brachiator: LOL, I like it!
Cheryl Rofer
I am guessing that chuck_da_kid is a first-year law student. Just a wild guess.
Omnes Omnibus
@chuck_da_kid: Legality has fuck to do with impeachment. If the House draws up articles of impeachment that include treason and the Senate convicts, that’s it, game over. Legal Realism in action.
randy khan
@Sherparick1:
Only someone who hasn’t followed the Virginia campaign would say Northam is running a Republican lite campaign.
Jeffro
@randy khan:
Amen to THAT!
SatanicPanic
@Brachiator: I got that man, we’re cool I was just being snotty earlier
J R in WV
@chuck_da_kid:
Statements of legal fact issue from judges, not on blogs. Not even from lawyer’s briefs.
Kilgore Trout
@Trentrunner:
So let’s elect *another* Nazi…yeah, that’s the ticket. F’ing idiot.
J R in WV
@chuck_da_kid:
You display your ignorance and youth here; perhaps you aren’t American? The definition of treason in the USA is very simple, it’s in the constitution, and it’s short and sweet:
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
You aren’t saying he’s pulling all this out of his ass are you?
Shalimar
@chuck_da_kid: You might want to sit down for this.
Words can have more than one meaning.
Citizen Alan
@Trentrunner:
People like you are why I pray for the death of Bernie Sanders. And now you are pied.
Citizen Alan
@low-tech cyclist:
It’s called The Pie filter. Works great for me.
chuck_da_kid
@J R in WV:
This is a pretty dumb take that doesn’t account for the inherent nuance in interpreting the Constitution.
While any discussion of potential treason should start probably start from the text, judicial opinions interpreting that text are also relevant. You’e provided an extremely basic definition of treason–i’m not sure if the Supreme Court has ever ruled on what kind of conduct meets this standard, but even if it hasn’t, saying that Trump’s conduct = giving aid and comfort to enemies = constitutional treason isn’t really accurate–that would just be your opinion on the issue.
Saying “actually the definition is short and sweet, here’s the Constitution” is akin to someone saying “the 2nd Amendment doesn’t grant a general right to bear arms because it only refers to a well-regulated militia.”
Neither statement is fully correct, the latter obviously being false.
But sure, continue living in a world where the issue stops with a basic reference to the text of the Constitution. Might actually be pleasant to live in such a simple fantasy land…
chuck_da_kid
@J R in WV:
I appreciate this comment because it tries to engage with the substantive issues at play. Unfortunately, I don’t think you’re really grasping what i’m saying.
First of all, I don’t think it’s correct to say conclusively that the Emoluments Clause is being violated daily. You can say “I think the Emoluments Clause is being violated daily and many constitutional scholars agree with me.” I can just as easily say I think the Emoluments Clause isn’t being violated daily and many constitutional scholars agree with me. This just isn’t a settled issue by any stretch of the imagination. Personally, I have no opinion on the issue, because i’m not a constitutional scholar.
You also refer to the definite existence of misdemeanors and probably high crimes. I’m not sure where you are getting this from–has anything conclusively demonstrated that Trump and Co. have engaged in the types of crimes contemplated by Article 2 Section 4 of the Constitution? Because I must have missed that news alert.
chuck_da_kid
@Cheryl Rofer:
Not quite. A first year law student might come onto this blog guns blazing and try to say that x conduct definitely is or isn’t illegal/unconstitutional. I’m just pointing out that a lot of these takes are based on uninformed opinion yet are being presented as fact. I don’t really have an opinion on these issues because I would need to do some serious research to arrive at an opinion i’d be comfortable with.
You on the other hand seem very comfortable with take such as “In a world not dominated by Republican need for tax cuts for the wealthy, we would probably already have articles of impeachment introduced in the House.”
I think this is okay because you at least qualify your statement with “probably”, but still, is there any evidence for this statement for this situation besides your personal reading of the situation? Does your position as a “retired chemist” make you qualified to prognosticate what would be happening in a “world not dominated by Republic need for tax cuts for the wealthy?” Is your statement based on off-the-record conversations with Washington insiders and GOP lawmakers, or just supported by your interpretation of the same articles and interviews that millions of other folks who are into politics read?
chuck_da_kid
@Shalimar:
My beef isn’t with folks who are saying “I think Donald Trump is a traitor”, it is with folks that are spouting off takes like “Donald Trump is guilty of treason” or “Donald Trump is using his office to illegally enrich himself.”
chuck_da_kid
@J R in WV:
This is a true statement, but not really inconsistent with what i’m saying. I’ll clarify by saying that my beef is with people framing their opinions as factually correct statements of law.
“The Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of Congress’ power to enact most of the provisions of the ACA in NFIB v. Sebellius” is a factually correct statement of law.
“Donald Trump is illegally using his office to enrich himself and his family” is an opinion.
That’s all. That’s all i’m saying. It’s a very narrow point and i’ve been clear i’m no expert on these issues.
chuck_da_kid
@J R in WV:
For example, here is a 1918 article in the Yale Law Journal discussing what “giving comfort and aid to the enemy” means. As you can see, it is far more complicated than the simple definition in the Constitution.
Are you really under the impression that the discussion stops with the text of the Constitution? And that you can copy and paste the freaking text and then act like you’ve proved your point and then smugly call others ignorant?
debit
@chuck_da_kid: Honey, you aren’t convincing anyone of anything at this point except of your inability to let it go.
Omnes Omnibus
@chuck_da_kid: This isn’t a law review editorial board. This isn’t a law blog. Lots of words have meaning as terms of art in the practice of law, and many of them are used more loosely by layfolk.
chuck_da_kid
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeah that’s a fair point. Perhaps this crusade was a little unnecessary…
SFAW
@Trentrunner:
So it’s about 8 or 9 hours after you posted your moronic “purity uber alles” comments, so you’ve probably posted more, but the 5 or 10 I could stomach were enough to show me that you’re a fucking moron, and if not a Russki troll, you’re doing a great impression of one.
Maybe you and Susan Sarandon can hook up, and lecture the rest of us in the real world about heightening the contradictions or some other bullshit. Then, you two assholes can get together with Saint Ralph the Pure, issue a statement about how Shitgibbon’s awfulness will usher in generations of liberal policy, just as had happened after W.
До свидания, dumbfuck
SFAW
@FlipYrWhig:
Well, it ain’t Keats, but you do have a way with words.