Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

There are times when telling just part of the truth is effectively a lie.

Disappointing to see gov. newsom with his finger to the wind.

He really is that stupid.

Bad people in a position to do bad things will do bad things because they are bad people. End of story.

These are not very smart people, and things got out of hand.

Trump’s cabinet: like a magic 8 ball that only gives wrong answers.

No one could have predicted…

Cancel the cowardly Times and Post and set up an equivalent monthly donation to ProPublica.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

You cannot shame the shameless.

If you are still in the gop, you are either an extremist yourself, or in bed with those who are.

The republican speaker is a slippery little devil.

The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.

Oh FFS you might as well trust a 6-year-old with a flamethrower.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

Prediction: the gop will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

Boeing: repeatedly making the case for high speed rail.

The words do not have to be perfect.

Wake up. Grow up. Get in the fight.

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

Republicans cannot even be trusted with their own money.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

You are here: Home / Politics / America / Mass Murder by Mass Shooting at Texas Church

Mass Murder by Mass Shooting at Texas Church

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A short while ago a gunman entered the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas and opened fire. Preliminary reports are that there are multiple fatalities and casualties. The FBI is on the scene. And after a short pursuit the shooter was shot and killed by law enforcement.

Right now there’s no word on motive or much else other than the most basic details. Sutherland Springs is a small town southeast of San Antonio and San Antonia news media is scrambling to get on scene and get more and hopefully more accurate information.

As with all these types of events, the information bouncing around on 24/7 news, as well as social media is preliminary and is likely to be revised over the next 36 to 48 hours.

Stay frosty!

Update at 2:58 PM

MSNBC is reporting at least 15 dead.

Update at 3:oo PM

And now we’ve got a shooting in front of a church in Fresno, CA.

From The Fresno Bee:

A woman was gunned down and her companion was wounded in the parking lot of St. Alphonsus Church in southwest Fresno Sunday, and police were in a standoff several blocks away with someone believed to be the gunman.

Dispatch reports said the shooter got out of a vehicle, fired at the two, and got back in the car and fled.

According to dispatch and eyewitness reports, there were two victims, a woman and a man, who were shot in a small blue Toyota at the church on Kearney Boulevard, west of Fresno Street.

The shooting happened in a back parking lot of the church. Witnesses reported three gunshots were fired.

 

Reader Interactions

228Comments

  2. 2.

    Adam L Silverman

    And, again, as I’ve written several times on the front page: I can place far too many in the President’s family, the inner circle at his business, and his cabinet and/or staff (at least prior to Kelly purging the White House staff this summer) within two links of Putin:

  3. 3.

    Timurid

    This was a tiny church in a tiny town. My guess is a current or former member of the congregation with a (real or imagined) score to settle.
    A terrorist or random spree killer whose primary goals were maximum bodycount and maximum publicity could have gone to the big city an hour’s drive away and had a choice of many better targets.

  4. 4.

    Hunter Gathers

    White guy = thoughts and prayers and MOAR guns.
    Not white = extreme vetting, perhaps a pogram to MAGA

  6. 6.

    Raoul

    Whether a Luby’s in October 1991, or the 2009 or 2014 Fort Hood shootings, or this (or 100s of others, I would imagine), Texans will never relinquish their love affair/deeply perverse fetish with guns.
    That’s part of the reason I left Texas in 1995. As a youngish gay man, I never ever felt safe given all the drunk, armed homophobes on the sidewalks and in pickups (and, to be fair, cars) around TX.
    Still, this is a horror, and I am sorry for those killed. Nothing will change, but I am still sad that more deaths are (always) on tap.

  7. 7.

    Elizabelle

    Quentin Tarantino did it more stylishly.

    Hate to say this, but I am just mass shootinged out. CNN is flapping their lips about “it’s a small and intimate community.” So what? Powerful guns in the mix, nowhere is safe.

    Except our craven Congresscritters, safe behind their metal detectors and gun free offices, and TSA screenings. (And I am fine with the security, because Nancy Pelosi would be target number one.)

    Concert in Las Vegas from a highrise hotel. 26 dead in an elementary school. Wal-Marts, Lubys. Mother Emmanuel.

    No place is safe.

  9. 9.

    Zach

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I can place far too many in the President’s family, the inner circle at his business, and his cabinet and/or staff (at least prior to Kelly purging the White House staff this summer) within two links of Putin.

    It’s so odd that all of the accidentally omitted financial conflicts of interest are linked to Russia, isn’t it?

  18. 18.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Elizabelle: Yep. Despite what the retired ATF guy on MSNBC said, when houses of worship are shot up during services it tends to be disgruntled current or former members of the congregation or someone pissed off at someone in the congregation. Given where this happened, I find terrorism unlikely, but anything is possible.

  19. 19.

    Elizabelle

    I truly think the reason so many black people (and nonblack people) are getting shot by police is that police know we have too many guns floating around in our society, and they don’t seem to de-escalate as much as other countries’ police forces do. I think they are afraid for their lives.

    And so community residents pay the price for that, for too many guns in too many hands.

    It is madness.

  20. 20.

    D58826

    Oh thank goodness the situation has been resolved – thoughts and prayers have been issued. Nothing more to see here –

    Sen. Cruz on shooting: “Keeping all harmed in Sutherland Springs in our prayers and grateful for our brave first responders on the scene.”

    and

    Sen. Cornyn: “Truly heartbreaking news … Please say a prayer for First Baptist congregation, first responders and the community there.”

    Der Fuhrer has also chimed in with thoughts and prayers.

    Victims must be white. Sorry for being bitter and cynical. but hard not to be.

  21. 21.

    JCJ

    @Timurid:

    That would be my guess. There was a mass shooting in my town of Brookfield,Wisconsin at a Sheraton hotel in a conference room that some obscure church used for services. The murder/ammosexual/terrorist was a former member. Interestingly the fifth anniversary of another shooting here in this leafy suburb of Milwaukee was last month. That one was at a spa from a former boyfriend.

  25. 25.

    Mnemosyne

    @Elizabelle:

    Yeah, my first thought with that Fresno shooting is “domestic violence.” That’s also why the killer hasn’t shot himself — he killed his wife and her new boyfriend for revenge, so he doesn’t want to have to die.

    The Texas one, I’m not sure what to say. We’ll have to wait for more information.

  29. 29.

    Yarrow

    @D58826:

    Victims must be white.

    They seem to be from interviews with family members who have come to the scene and also from the church’s Facebook page photos.

  32. 32.

    Roger Moore

    @Zach:

    It’s so odd that all of the accidentally omitted financial conflicts of interest are linked to Russia, isn’t it?

    They would have been glad to disclose all those connections if the Democrats hadn’t politicized close connections to Putin. It’s always the Democrats’ fault.

  33. 33.

    HeleninEire

    Sorta OT bit maybe not. There was an article on loving.ie (internet site) about which countries will be safe if there is a WW3. And it said (sorry can’t link from my phone) that the reason

    ETA: continuing from my phone. …is because they are monitoring DT and its really possible. Anyway Ireland came in 10th. Cuz we’re neutral and we’re an Island.

  34. 34.

    Elizabelle

    @Major Major Major Major: Sadly, no. Although it’s overwhelmingly black people, people of color.

    re CNN coverage: I don’t want to do the “this is so tragic” kabuki. Fuck this shit. It does not happen in other first world countries, over and over and over again.

    Very selfish thought of mine, but I think this might help Northam. We’re number one! I think Virginia still holds the record for most dead in a university shooting (Virginia Tech, a few years ago; believe that was 38 dead.) It’s hard to keep up, though.

  38. 38.

    Elizabelle

    24 injuries.

    That could bankrupt the local hospitals, couldn’t it, if they require a lot of surgery, ICU, aftercare?

    Gun massacres do not come cheap, for the victims. Heard some of the Las Vegas victims are having insurance problems, because they were shot “out of network”. Imagine that.

  39. 39.

    dmsilev

    @Mnemosyne: As any coder will tell you, ‘lather, rinse, repeat’ is missing a way to break out of the endless loop.

    (Old joke, apologies to those who have already heard it)

  40. 40.

    trollhattan

    @D58826:
    Dittos from Abbott: “Our prayers are with all who were harmed by this evil act. Our thanks to law enforcement for their response.”

    They’ll all chime in with Hymn 666 from the NRA hymnal: “Verily, it is wrong to politicize such a rare tragedy, amen.”

  44. 44.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Hunter Gathers:

    White guy = thoughts and prayers and MOAR guns.
    Not white = extreme vetting, perhaps a pogram to MAGA

    You need to modify this “White Guy= Sad crazy man who needed our help and love but was victim of false flag operation. Victim’s wounds are self inflicted.”

  46. 46.

    dmsilev

    @HeleninEire: In the late seventies, my dad was paranoid about the risk of nuclear war, and spent a while researching the least likely target. And, until my mom sensibly vetoed the idea, he even toyed with moving the family to his first choice…

    …the Falkland Islands.

    Mom still hasn’t let him live that one down.

  50. 50.

    Ruckus

    @Elizabelle:
    People I know who were at the LV shooting were from out of state. That would be quite a bit out of network. (A fellow that used to work where I do was standing next to someone who was shot. Luck is all it was. For him.)

  53. 53.

    john fremont

    @Elizabelle: This is a point David Simon ( reporter, writer, the Wire, Homicide etc.) made on his blog several years ago arguing with some libertarian types. The libertarians were criticizing the trend of how police forces were becoming warrior cops, suiting up with military surplus etc. Simon replied you can’t keep expecting a beat cop to go handle situations with just a Glock 9 pistol and a shotgun when the suspects are armed with high capacity magazines, military styled semi automatic rifles etc.

  55. 55.

    Karen Potter

    @JCJ: I attended that church for a time, actually knew the guy who did the shooting and lost friends and loved ones that day. Yes, he did have problems but it wasn’t until after I heard from brother and others who were his “friends” that he had been getting strange; and they told no one.

  56. 56.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Elizabelle: They’ll be medevaced to San Antonio. The local area doesn’t have the capabilities. They don’t even have their own fire department they’re so small.

  58. 58.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Zach: I wonder about this – is it that all the omitted links are to Russia, or is it just that they’ve omitted a ton of financial and personal links but we’re only looking for the Russian ones?

    If it’s the former, it’s incredibly suspicious. If it’s the latter, they’re even more corrupt than we thought. But it’s probably the first.

  60. 60.

    Elizabelle

    @john fremont: We are going to have to solve that problem, and it’s going to involve removing the arsenals from private hands. All this murder and nastiness and paranoia is tearing our country apart.

    Fuck the NRA.

    I am curious if they are going to find some of the parishioners had guns with them, or even drew.

  62. 62.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Apparently the guy who shot up the Wal Mart outside of Denver the other day lived alone, had no furniture other than a table, a lawn chair, and a TV, and his only other possessions anyone ever noticed in his apartment was a stack of Bibles.

  63. 63.

    Karen Potter

    I figure it will be “thoughts and prayers” until some guy man walks into a private country club and starts shooting; then and maybe only then will the people in power allow some gun control

  69. 69.

    Adam L Silverman

    @trollhattan: My dogs are very upset that as far as their tummies are concerned we are 40 minutes late for dinner. They are not amused when I keep pointing to the clock and saying not yet.

  73. 73.

    amygdala

    @Elizabelle: It’ll be worse if Congress manages to gut the ACA with their budget “fix.” Polytrauma is both the mother of all pre-existing conditions and a situation where costs can hit a 7-figure lifetime max well before discharge. Medicaid is, I believe, pretty stingy in Texas, and even for someone permanently disabled by their injuries, Medicare takes a couple of years after disability is established to kick in.

  74. 74.

    Ruckus

    @MisterForkbeard:

    they’re even more corrupt than we thought.

    Go with your gut. They are even more corrupt that we thought. It may or may not have been built into conservative politics at one time. It is now. It’s not a question of if, it’s a question of how much and with whom.

  76. 76.

    trollhattan

    @Ruckus:
    Spouse attended a conference in San Diego the week immediately following the Vegas massacre and they held a moment of silence for one of the featured presenters whose picture was prominent in the agenda, as he was among the murdered. These affect us all in myriad ways.

    Also met a sideline dad at soccer last Sunday whose family barely escaped the Santa Rosa fire. It was bliss watching our daughters mix it up for 90 minutes.

  78. 78.

    trollhattan

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Word. Ours was swatting us with his unnaturally large paws to go out this a.m. at dark o’clock and was not having any nonsense about “It’s only five!”

  79. 79.

    Elizabelle

    You know, we still don’t know why the Las Vegas gunman shot up that concert. It was of great concern in the days after.

    Those people shot? Still as dead and injured.

    These folks? Just as dead, no matter why the gunman aimed at them.

    CNN always trying to make the inexplicable explicable.

    These people dead. Because we have too many guns out there.

    Second Amendment done trumped First Amendment. Once again.

  82. 82.

    Tenar Arha

    @Elizabelle: Based on police basic equipment a few years ago, before all the military transfers, I’d agree they have a right to be nervous & twitchy. Based on the staristics of who actually owns high powered guns, who gathers up arsenals, who is more likely to be spree killing etc. I find the demographic statistics of who actually gets shot as opposed to de-escalated, evidence of something other than bad training or justifiable fear.

    ETA IOW the police don’t have any excuse left that will convince me that their slips aren’t showing. (Maybe if they start firing problematic cops & keeping them fired & changing the rules & the contracts to keep people who never should have been cops off police forces etc. then I’m willing to take the fear of 2nd amendment absolutists a little more seriously).

  84. 84.

    Davebo

    @john fremont: I have first hand experience with what those rides cost. In my case it was from one hospital to another in a case where there was nothing either could do for my wife. They don’t ask you if you want them to make the move but if they had I’m sure I’d have said yes.

    That was in 2013 and I only recently finished paying off that helo ride (not covered).

  88. 88.

    Elizabelle

    @Tenar Arha: Not following. Why is it black people, the occasional woman, people with Down’s syndrome?

    Expand your comment, when you have time. I don’t doubt the police are in a lot more peril than they used to be.

    Very honestly, the police could go a long way toward shutting down the NRA madness. But they don’t.

  89. 89.

    trollhattan

    @Elizabelle:
    Have yet to see, or missed an accounting of how many shot, how many trampled among all the victims. I believe America deserves an accurate count of how many people one man with an unlimited arsenal can shoot. It’s getting in the territory of what a man with a truckload of explosives can do.

  92. 92.

    Zach

    @MisterForkbeard:

    I wonder about this – is it that all the omitted links are to Russia, or is it just that they’ve omitted a ton of financial and personal links but we’re only looking for the Russian ones?

    Also relevant: they all seem pretty happy to give up billions of dollars and/or work for free to join team Trump.

    To be fair, Cohn just seems kinda in it because he wants tax cuts for the rich; he’s doing EVERYTHING he can to fast track that because he worries the end is near. See the Vanity Fair story:

    One person close to Dina Powell and Gary Cohn said they’re making sure to leave rooms if the subject of Russia comes up.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/the-west-wing-trump-is-apoplectic-as-allies-fear-impeachment

  93. 93.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Tenar Arha: @Elizabelle: Being a cop in the US is one of the safest occupations.
    http://www.newsweek.com/it-has-never-been-safer-be-cop-372025

    Another way to measure how dangerous is to be a cop is to compare it to other jobs. So how does police work stack up against other professions?

    The Washington Post’s Wonkblog took a look at that using the Bureau of Labor Statistics data on fatal work injuries. Unfortunately, the BLS only collects data on “patrol officers,” not all police, but even so, policing isn’t even in the top ten most dangerous professions.

    Perhaps even more surprisingly, police aren’t even the most likely occupation to be murdered. Taxi drivers and chauffeurs are more than twice as likely as cops to be murdered on the job.

    Another way to look at it is to compare homicide rates from around country to the rate for police. Here the comparison is even more striking: it’s safer to be a cop than it is to simply live in many U.S. cities.

    It’s hard to estimate the current murder rate for police, but in 2008 (the last time we had good data on the total number of officers), there were 5.2 murders per 100,000 full-time equivalent sworn officers—below the then national average of 5.4 murders per 100,000.

    In 2008, you were 12 times more likely to be killed living in New Orleans than wearing a badge. Since then, the number of police has increased, so the rate is almost certainly lower today.

    The bottom line is that cops are safer than many workers, safer than residents of many cities, and indeed safer than they’ve been in decades.

    It’s safer to be a cop than it is to live in Baltimore. It’s safer to be a cop than it is to be a fisher, logger, pilot, roofer, miner, trucker or taxi driver. It’s safer to be a cop today than it’s been in years, decades, or even a century, by some measures.

  94. 94.

    trollhattan

    @Elizabelle:

    Very honestly, the police could go a long way toward shutting down the NRA madness. But they don’t.

    Not politically convenient it would seem. I’m taken at the vast gulf between my city’s new police chief and the county sheriff. The first is not a fan of moar guns, guns, guns but the latter is the one who issues concealed carry permits for the entire county and has been papering the joint since coming into office (issuing thousands where his predecessors only allowed a few dozen). Guess which ran for congress as a Republican?

  95. 95.

    Ruckus

    john freemont
    First, your comment at 72, the reply button is captured by the link.
    Second I had a coworker who got injured in a bicycle accident and EMT was called and arrived and called for helo transport. The bill for the helo transport was over $30,000, to fly him just a few miles. On the bill the fuel charge was listed as $8000. At $5/gal for jet fuel, that’s 1600 gallons or over 10,000 lbs of fuel. Even counting getting there, transporting and going back to home base, that’s one excessive overcharge.

  96. 96.

    wenchacha

    I didn’t read all the comments, but many. If it hasn’t happened yet, this time around, Huckabee or Santorum or some other sanctimonious douche will show up to tell us that Christians are being targeted.

  98. 98.

    Karen Potter

    @Adam L Silverman: what a terrible person, to think that animals should follow the clock. LOL; only knew one dairy farmer that tried to change milking time by clock changes. I never tried to keep dogs or any other animals to clock schedule; just not fair to them.

  100. 100.

    Ruckus

    @trollhattan:
    Have a friend who lost her partner early this year who had just moved 6 months prior, to, guess where, yep, Santa Rosa. Her neighbor woke her that Monday at 4:30am to tell her to get the hell out, she didn’t know if her home was gone or OK for 4 days. She got lucky. There is at least one commenter who lives in downtown Santa Rosa, he was OK as well.

  101. 101.

    Ruckus

    @Elizabelle:
    Isin’t it somewhere in there about LIFE, LIBERTY, PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS, and before that woefully misquoted and misunderstood 2nd amendment?
    Rather difficult to have any of that if you have been shot.

  103. 103.

    Chris

    A short while ago a gunman entered the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas and opened fire. Preliminary reports are that there are multiple fatalities and casualties. The FBI is on the scene. And after a short pursuit the shooter was shot and killed by law enforcement.

    Our government waits with baited breath to find out the shooter’s religion, skin color, and immigration status, to know whether it’s too soon to politicize this tragedy or whether it’s the moral duty of every red blooded American to politicize this tragedy.

    Our media waits with baited breath to find out what our government’s going to do, so that they’ll know whether to run the both-sides-do-it tape or the moment-Trump-became-president tape.

    Our too-cool-for-school leftists and centrists who are totally not completely alike do not wait with baited breath for any of that shit, because Hillary Clinton would’ve been worse, and also, drones, probably hiding in those same Troubling Clouds under which she bought the election with uranium.

    In conclusion, ‘merica.

  104. 104.

    Trentrunner

    The church’s pastor’s 14-year-old daughter was killed in the slaughter. I wonder why God is punishing him.

    Also, a 2-year-old.

    Where was the “good guy with a gun”? What the fuck, Texas?

  105. 105.

    Mike in NC

    Waiting for Pat Robertson or Franklin Graham to come out and urge all churchgoers to pack heat.

  109. 109.

    NotMax

    @Chris

    Not to in any way dispute your points, but it is bated breath.

    Although as chewing on worms would give one baited breath, maybe close to the mark after all.

  113. 113.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ruckus:

    Isin’t it somewhere in there about LIFE, LIBERTY, PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS, and before that woefully misquoted and misunderstood 2nd amendment?

    No, there isn’t, but there is this:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

  114. 114.

    Elizabelle

    I bet the cable channels and networks have a manual on how to cover mass shootings. What they can say, ask, express, and what they can’t.

    The coverage always unfolds the same.

    Just channel surfed. Fox News chyron: something like Trump says God is with Southerland Baptist. The fuck?

    Now: on Fox chyron:

    Texas Governor Abbot calls shooting an ACT OF EVIL.

    It’s always evil that did it, and never the fucking gun.

    ETA: LOL. Now it’s Abbott and Thoughts and Prayers.

    Script. I tell you.

  119. 119.

    Ruckus

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    So there is something in there. And before that 2nd amendment.
    It is the premise of the entire document though. Not one misconstrued sentence in one amendment.

  120. 120.

    Gelfling 545

    @D58826: Trump sent “thoughts and prayers”? So ebody needs to tell him that yelling “Jesus Christ “ when he flubs a golf shot isn’t praying. Also, if he’s had a thought (as opposed to impulses or reactions) he’s done a good job of keeping it a secret.

  121. 121.

    Elizabelle

    From NY TImes coverage:

    The First Baptist Church of La Vernia, Tex., about seven miles away, wrote on Facebook that it would open its doors from 5 to 7 p.m.

    “Today an unthinkable tragedy occurred in our community,” the church wrote. “There will be Pastors and leaders present to pray with you or to talk, and the altar will be open for us to fall at the feet of Jesus.”

    They already did that in Sutherland. Lot of bodies on the floor, being photographed; won’t be moved for hours on hours.

    They actually fell at the feet of Mammon. Cost of doing business.

  123. 123.

    Elizabelle

    der Trump’s tweet:

    May God be w/ the people of Sutherland Springs, Texas. The FBI & law enforcement are on the scene. I am monitoring the situation from Japan.

    He’s monitoring. From across the Pacific. Good. We’re safe.

  124. 124.

    Chris

    @NotMax:

    Really, sir. This is 2017. You’re going to need more than some easily verifiable and previously uncontroversial facts to derail my narrative.

  125. 125.

    GregB

    In other shitty and predictable news, we learn Russia paid for Jill Stein ads on social media.

    Most important question. Did Jill Stein go to Russia on a corrupt quid pro quo?

  126. 126.

    Mnemosyne

    @Karen Potter:

    I’m one of those mean people who feeds our cats on the clock schedule, so they’ll have to wait an extra hour to get fed tonight. It’s okay, they get a nice surprise in the spring when suddenly dinner arrives an hour earlier than they expected.

  127. 127.

    Immanentize

    @Mnemosyne:
    I am so sceptical these days, I am wondering why they haven’t said anything about the dead gunman yet? Looking for an illegal immigrant relative maybe?

  130. 130.

    Elizabelle

    @Mnemosyne: Mental health!

    Got to go get ready. Dining tonight with my beloved sister and my rebel yell states rights Trump rooting brother in law. Thinking I will watch my wine intake.

    This is the first time I will have seen rebel yell since I got back from Barcelona. Months ago. And before I flew back, he had unfriended me on Facebook. Hoping he is more nerved out than I am. I do not really care.

  133. 133.

    NotMax

    @Chris

    The position of substitute 4th deputy assistant back-up grammar cop in Steeplejack’s absence is a lonely vigil.

    :)

  135. 135.

    Trentrunner

    @Elizabelle: Also pointing out that Baptist preachers were at the forefront blaming gay people for their own slaughter at the Orlando gay club.

    Notice what I’m NOT doing here.

    But it would seem that if one thought God was score-settling and message-sending, that church has some goddamn explaining to do.

  138. 138.

    Kathleen

    @HeleninEire: OT and late, but I’m so glad your sister’s situation has settled down and you are able to stay in your beloved Ireland! I’ve been thread skipping/catching up and saw your post from a few days ago. Yeah!!!!!

  139. 139.

    Elizabelle

    @Trentrunner: remember how Hannibal Lecter enjoyed collecting news of those who died in church? Think it was in one of the books, if it did not make it to film.

    Today’s trivia fact. Brent Ratner, sexual harrasser, directed Red Dragon. I always really liked that movie.

  140. 140.

    RSA

    @D58826:

    Oh thank goodness the situation has been resolved – thoughts and prayers have been issued. Nothing more to see here –

    Couldn’t they have issued those thoughts and prayers before this incident?!

    …Oh, right, it wouldn’t have made a difference either way.

  141. 141.

    Tom

    You know, if the current members of Congress aren’t able to do any more than “Thoughts and prayers”, it’s time for some new members of congress. There’s no reason that guns and gun owners shouldn’t be subject to the same requirements that cars and car owners have to abide by. And that whole “bear arms things” doesn’t say anything about ownership; it just means that if you’re in a well-regulated militia you get to carry them around for a while under somebody’s supervision.

  142. 142.

    Kathleen

    @Elizabelle: One of the victims was getting death threats on Facebook from people claiming he faked his shooting. That sent me over the edge last week.

  143. 143.

    Immanentize

    @Karen Potter: I come from a long line of farmers and dairy farmers. I never heard one of them refer to it as their day job. But what you are saying is that you were always around to do whatever for your animals. Nice!

  144. 144.

    Millard Filmore

    @Ruckus:

    A fellow that used to work where I do was standing next to someone who was shot. Luck is all it was.

    As an atheist I firmly believe that God is in charge of random numbers. All the rest is up to us.

  145. 145.

    Trentrunner

    Commenter on CNN just now:

    “This town is from another time, where people don’t lock their doors and people help each other, it’s not an urban area where you expect this…”

    Why not just come right out and say “We expect those niggers and Arabs to kill everyone and each other, but here in God’s own country…”

    Welcome to the party, asshole.

  146. 146.

    Tenar Arha

    @Elizabelle: (Fair warning this is kinda long).
    Just in case you missed it, I did add an “ETA” to my comment where I said “their slip is showing.”

    I don’t doubt the police are in a lot more peril than they used to be.
    Very honestly, the police could go a long way toward shutting down the NRA madness. But they don’t.

    Adam helpfully provided the statistics on how comparatively currently police are in less danger than many professions. Police have a right to be afraid of high powered equipment, as do we all, but correspondingly, their own equipment has gotten hugely overpowered to compete with that. I guess I half agree with you because I think if they were really that afraid of people with high powered military equipment, that their unions should be working overtime against the NRA and the out of control 2nd Amendment on a daily basis. They should be lobbying for closing the “gun-show loophole,” “boyfriend loophole,” universal background checks and registration, and passing laws in the states to prevent anyone with a domestic violence arrest from keeping their arsenals at home. (I don’t know how that would work, but some way of definitely having to turn in their full collections ought to be part of any laws that happen).

    I do feel I should expand on my “slip” comment:
    I’m of the opinion that a lot of police have either unexamined biases, allow their biases free rein, or imbibe the prejudices of their fellows. I also think there’s something about the way we’re picking, training, and disciplining police that practically guarantees “lash out first, explain later” responses to anyone argumentative, deaf, non-english speaking, suffering psychosis, disabled, differently abled, or as disgustingly usual in our society, anyone not visibly white and Christian. Because of the “blue wall of silence” they’ll also lie afterwards to back each other up when it’s completely undeserved, and even actively dangerous to their fellow officers. I think it’s very serious that the apparent silence of good cops, ensures that I’ve begun to assume cops in general to be a volatile monsters until proven otherwise. IMHO that’s not good for any police when someone as whitebread as me questions their good will. That’s all I’ve got.

  147. 147.

    Karen Potter

    @Adam L Silverman: The dog who now “owns” me, snacks all day. So in morning I put down amount of kibble for the day while making coffee and she will eat a piece or two every time she walks past bowl. The girl I had to put to sleep past winter was always “starving” so had to be careful to spread out her four cups of kibble (mastiff) during the day; her family moved and left her behind, took police months to finally catch her. When I adopted her she was skin and bones, but even after she was at healthy weight still was always hungry.

  149. 149.

    NotMax

    @Tom

    And once, just once, would like to hear a member of the press ask “What specifically are those thoughts, sir (or madam)?”

  152. 152.

    danielx

    Hey, this is just the price of freedom. Ask the NRA. For that matter, this being Texas, there will probably be family members of the dead saying much the same thing.

    Although I admit this is one more instance of something I do several times a week after absorbing the news: wondering what the fuck is wrong with people these days.

  153. 153.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Karen Potter: My blue tick was like that. I found him running lose and starving – he was skin and bones as well. He was always convinced there would never be more food.

  154. 154.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @Elizabelle: If you haven’t, you should see the first movie to adapt Red Dragon to the screen: 1985’s Manhunter. Brian Cox is much creepier as Hannibal Lecter than Anthony Hopkins is, because he seems perfectly normal until you’ve seen him for a while , and then he just seems . . . off. I could never buy Hopkins as Lecter, because no one would ever interact with him and come away with the impression that he’s anything other than a serial killer.

  155. 155.

    Timurid

    @Adam L Silverman:

    My cat, who also had been starved and abandoned, is exactly the same way. If you put a punch bowl full of food in front of her, she would try to eat it all.

  156. 156.

    Kathleen

    @Trentrunner: My favorite is the canard, “That’s not supposed to happen HERE” when a murder occurs in a suburban/exurban lily white neighborhood. It’s supposed to happen in my neighborhood because I’m in a “changing neighborhood” near the urban core.

  159. 159.

    J R in WV

    @Mnemosyne:

    Yes, white supremacists or Dominionist Christians like the assassination of Dr Tiller at his Reformed Lutheran Church where he was an usher. The second time he was shot. In my book, the most vile individual assassination since Kennedy, maybe worse. Over religious differences…

    I know the Southern Baptist science teacher whose class I was in when it was announced was delighted with Kennedy’s murder, because of his religion. I gotta stop now, hard to type when the screen is all blurry.

  160. 160.

    Karen Potter

    @Immanentize: You wouldn’t believe the number of people over the years who used to tell me I should get “a real job” cause then I wouldn’t be giving hand made gifts but could buy something nice. That usually got them crossed off my list of making hats and mittens for their children.

  162. 162.

    Mnemosyne

    @J R in WV:

    It was not very long ago at all that Roman Catholics were the “other.” I keep trying to remind my fellow Catholics of that, and that the worm can turn again very quickly. Catholics may be further down the KKK’s hate list than some other groups, but we’re still on that list.

  163. 163.

    danielx

    @Elizabelle:

    Cops are highly aware that a lot of your serious gun freaks would prefer to die rather than give up their arsenals. Outright confiscation of firearms would result in a lot of dead gun owners and a lot of dead cops.

    If you’ve never met and talked to any of them, you truly cannot understand how much of these people’s identity is built on gun ownership. We joke about guns being dick substitutes, but for a lot of these guys the prospect of losing their guns is as bad, if not worse, than the prospect of losing their testicles (or ovaries, in a limited number of cases).

  164. 164.

    trollhattan

    @Ruckus:
    So many of these stories, it was that close for folks given the time of day and how quickly the fire blew up and spread. The dad I spoke to was out of the country and somebody texted him about it. He couldn’t stir his families so reached out to neighbors until he found somebody to rouse them. By the time they got out the wall of fire was already consuming homes on their block. Theirs somehow survived but living among the devastation will be cold comfort.

  165. 165.

    Karen Potter

    @Tenar Arha: I am also “whitebread” but am finding that moving to a new state has made me a stranger in this small town; and frankly the police make me nervous. When I moved here I had a mastiff, and she made the police nervous; now I have a pit bull and she gets the same response. There is something wrong when a young, able bodied police man has to stroke his pistol while talking to a 65 year old woman with a dog who is sitting quietly at heel.

  169. 169.

    NotMax

    @Timurid

    Made me recall this.

    Fair warning: taken out of context and shoved back to back as in this compilation, definitely, absolutely, positively not for the faint of heart or squeamish.

  170. 170.

    Karen Potter

    @J R in WV: I remember a number of “good christians” saying the same thing, that he got what he deserved because of his religion. The sad thing is that people are still hating based on religion.

  172. 172.

    Immanentize

    @Karen Potter: Wow! What I wouldn’t give for just one more pair of my grandmother’s knit slippers. Or my grandfather’s jars of maple syrup that he tapped….

    True story,. When I was a wee boy (maybe 3) in upstate New York, my Mom asked my grandfather to help her put in a kitchen garden. He plowed and planted an acre! He was one crazy farmer.

  174. 174.

    Millard Filmore

    @Tenar Arha:

    Because of the “blue wall of silence” they’ll also lie afterwards to back each other up

    … and when it comes time to testify, put your hand on the Bible, look your God in the eye, and lie like Hell.

  175. 175.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Trentrunner: Fuck them. In 2016 the great State of Texas had over four times as many murders as New York City. I’m too lazy to go city by city, but Texas had ~1,300 murders. About 500 of those were in Dallas and Houston. So where the other 800, you douchebag?

  176. 176.

    Immanentize

    @Mnemosyne:
    I’ve told this story here before — my mom’s family were Methodist farmers and my dad’s family was Catholic Czech immigrants. When my Dad’s sister was born (in Binghamton NY in 1932) his mother and father received a postcard:
    “Three is too many
    — KKK”

  178. 178.

    trollhattan

    @Immanentize:
    Holy crap. Northerners don’t want to ponder how deeply the klan was entrenched in their backyards, nor that pockets remain to this day. I find it profoundly weird they marched in D.C. in support of prohibition.

  181. 181.

    Mnemosyne

    @Gin & Tonic:

    People in red states are absolutely convinced that blue states must be hellholes of violence because red states are hellholes of violence, and Rush and Fox News keep telling them that red states are Gawd’s Country. In fact, St. Louis has the highest murder rate in the country. The only California city to make the top 10 is Oakland.

    In other words: it’s projection. As always.

  182. 182.

    Mary G

    @Timurid: My first cat knocked an almost-full box of cat food off the counter while we were gone and ate it all in three hours. She looked pregnant, slept three days straight, then went back to constant bitching for more food. My second would tear open bags of spaghetti and bread and eat until stopped. I guess they never forget being hungry.

  183. 183.

    Roger Moore

    @GregB:

    Did Jill Stein go to Russia on a corrupt quid pro quo?

    Yes, she did. She has not only accepted election help but also personal money from the Russian government. I would love to see Mueller include her in the investigation.

  184. 184.

    Immanentize

    @trollhattan: The KKK was a Big political Protestant, anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic, anti-Union force in the north in the ’30’s. And vote supressors. Very big into preventing the immigrants from voting.

    ETA. The horrible thing about what they did was twofold — it was a postcard that everyone could read, and the KKK was monitoring births!

  186. 186.

    No Drought No More

    The nation will be better served if trump blows this particular slaughter off publicly as he surely already has privately (that is, if the bloodletting registered at all, which I doubt). The White House should instead just release an old tape of Obama “consoling” the country (lord knows there’s enough to choose from).

    That could at least serve as a bit of comedy relief, if only to contrast with the forthcoming, obligatory, and impious appeals to a just God that will now be mouthed by republican party operatives in congress assembled. They are all American scum, no exceptions to the rule.

    Those evil fucks would be wise to pick up an actual bible, and search it.

    Then again, they are evil fucks, and it would be a pointless exercise. Those people have turned in their cards to the human race, and they will live and die as the evil fucks fucks they are, all in God’s good time.

  188. 188.

    NotMax

    @trollhattan

    Buried deep in most histories is that in the 18th century (and for all intents and purposes into the decades of the first half of the 19th) one of the largest – if not the largest – concentration of slaves north of the Mason-Dixon line was in Brooklyn.

  189. 189.

    Another Scott

    That’s just one of about 19 shootings reported in the USA today. So far.

    :-(

    As to the “people will never give up their guns” argument, I don’t find it compelling. It may take a few generations (maybe less!), but this is a solvable problem.

    Years ago I knew a guy in Ohio who had a genuine, working, Tommy Gun. I’m reasonably sure he didn’t have a “tax stamp” for it… :-/ But him having it didn’t prevent getting most of them off the streets and out of the hands of gangsters who were shooting up cities. How to do it these days? Dunno. Buybacks, gradually increasing taxes and fines on guns kept in the home (“you can have all you want, if you keep them in a state-registered armory”), state insurance regulations requiring liability insurance (I remember what a hardship is was for may people to buy auto insurance), Mothers Against Irresponsible Gun Ownership, etc., etc.

    “Thoughts and prayers” are obviously insufficient. Those who want to spout such pablum must be forced (by constituent pressure or being voted out of office) to at least repeal laws against federal data collection of gun violence statistics and support research on improving gun safety and mental heath studies of people who develop such violent rage that they want to kill. It’s far past time for us all to accept that “nothing can be done because the NRA is too powerful’. I remember when Claude Pepper was all powerful in protecting Social Security, too. Times change. Defeats begat defeats, and victories begat victories. We have to fight them and not accept the status quo.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  190. 190.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    @HAL: Supposedly Texas allows concealed carry, I think even in churches. So I am betting when this law was proposed, it was the Angry White Guy’s fear that some Al-queda or Isis, or Bloods, Crips or MS-13 would do gangster sh#t in their jerkwater town. Not that it was one of their own that would commit this terrorist act.

  191. 191.

    Mike in NC

    @No Drought No More: Trump probably got the shooting news while on the finest golf course in Tokyo. Tomorrow he’ll direct Pence to make some inane public statement laced with religious mumbo-jumbo.

  192. 192.

    Adria McDowell

    @Immanentize: My mom’s family (Irish Catholics) is from the Binghamton area. When my mom and her siblings had to spend some time in a Methodist children’s home, they were constantly getting into fights, because they were the only Catholic kids there. This was in the ‘60s. Anti-Catholic sentiment is certainly lying under the surface in some areas of the country (especially if those Catholics are brown).

  193. 193.

    Immanentize

    @Another Scott:
    I have no money and no organization to do this, but I have wanted to start a campaign — newspapers, social media, radio, etc.:

    if you love your child,
    Do NOT send them to college in Texas

  194. 194.

    Immanentize

    @Adria McDowell: That is amazing but unsurprising. I grew up there then and the Catholic/Protestant divide was still there but breaking down. There was a LOT of segregation by church, but ultimately the Catholics won, it seems.

    ETA. That outcome was sort of inevitable because the Protestant factory owners happily employed Irish, Italian, and Slovak worker immigrants — all Catholic and happy to have babies.

  195. 195.

    opiejeanne

    @Trentrunner: I think those were Southern Baptists blaming gays for that. Is this a Baptist church? Or was it a Southern Baptist? Because there’s a world of difference.

  196. 196.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Adam L Silverman: Being a cop is way more dangerous than most white-collar office jobs–it’s just less dangerous than most blue-collar ones that involve physical labor or heavy machinery.

  197. 197.

    TS

    @Elizabelle:

    He’s monitoring. From across the Pacific. Good. We’re safe.

    Last I heard he was playing golf – guess the caddie is keeping him up to date with the news. In another administration this would have been “Obama’s fault” & we sure know what the reaction would have been for President Clinton.

    Mass shootings – on an almost daily basis – that happen in the US are horrendous – and your posts today are spot on. I keep hearing “it is too late to go for the guns” as an alternative argument to the worship of the second amendment. Sane people think it is never too late to see the difference between the US and other countries in regard to mass shootings but the congress seems to be buried in NRA lies, propaganda and money.

    Where I live children can go to school, mothers can go to shopping centers, teens can go to the movies and concerts and everyone can go to church without any fear of being shot – which is not to say there are no guns or no gun deaths but they play a minute part in our lives.

  198. 198.

    Immanentize

    @opiejeanne: The name “First Baptist”, although not dispositive suggests Southern Baptist affiliation. But in those small Texas towns, doctrine slides. Where were the pastor and his wife anyhoo? Odd detail.

  199. 199.

    Immanentize

    @Matt McIrvin: Do you have some stats on that? Or is it just intuition?

    ETA A large percentage of every police department’s workforce ARE white collar workers.

  200. 200.

    J R in WV

    On NPR just a little while ago I heard a local resident of Sutherland Springs TX tell us how shocked he was that this could happen in TX, because they all have their own guns and felt secure and safe. Amazing! Other reports told about how when the shooter exited the church, neighbors exchanged fire with him as he fled, some people were wounded across the street at a convenience mart.

    Off topic for this thread, relevant to earlier threads. Those interested in Wilbur Ross’s ownership of companies kept secret while he sought confirmation as Secretary of Commerce might find this NBC story interesting. The first couple of paragraphs are the meat, but the details are fascinating. The corporate structure and names are (surprise) confusing and misleading.

  201. 201.

    Karen Potter

    @Immanentize: Only thing I miss after divorcing my ex is my gardens; don’t miss going out in subzero weather to make sure that none of hens have laid and egg and walked away, or the time of year when lambs and kids cry all night after being separated from mothers. My vegetable garden was only about 1/3 acre but used companion gardening and always managed to produce enough to keep us, in laws and children in food until next year. I do miss making wine and mead; cause that was “fun” trying to create something just a little different with the fruits I grew.

  203. 203.

    coin operated

    @Trentrunner: ‘zactly. They should have learned this lesson after 500+ people who subscribe to ‘god, gunz, and ‘murika’ were mowed down during a country+western concert.

  204. 204.

    J R in WV

    @Matt McIrvin:

    You’re going to have to post links to statistics on that, because I’m also dubious. Especially if you don’t count LEOs who die in traffic accidents, which are way more than the number of LEOs actually shot on duty.

    Without data, all you’ve got is an opinion, and we all have those.

    ETA fix stuff. improve things.

  205. 205.

    raven

    Devin Kelly, USAF Vet

    The shooter was “now ID’d by authorities; white male in his 20s from outside San Antonio,” reported Mike Levine, a journalist for ABC News. “Authorities are now scrubbing his social media; on Facebook in recent days, he showed off an AR-15 style-looking gun.” After opening fire inside the church, reports say, the gunman took off in a vehicle. Not soon after the shooting, though, he was also reported to be dead.

    Kelley’s Facebook page has now been deleted. His profile picture showed two small children. According to The Daily Beast, “Kelley was married and Kelley’s mother-in-law listed a P.O. box in Sutherland Springs as a mailing address. San Antonio police reportedly raided Kelley’s home on Sunday evening…he briefly taught at a summer Bible school.”

    His LinkedIn page says that he was a VBS “teacher aid (sic)” for “VBS AT KINGSVILLE FBC” and notes, “Dates volunteered Jun 2013 – Jun 2013 Volunteer duration 1 mo. Cause Children. Teaching children ages 4-6 at vocational bible schools helping their minds grow and prosper.” However, multiple children are reportedly among those shot in the church.

  206. 206.

    Duane

    After Republicans pay lip service to this tragedy, they’ll collectively shake their heads, shrug their shoulders and say,”these things happen. There’s nothing we can do to stop it.”

  210. 210.

    debbie

    @J R in WV:

    I listened to that, anticipating Wayne LaPierre would be the next interview. He must have gone in hiding, maybe with the shooter’s FB page in hand.

  212. 212.

    Lizzy L

    @Adria McDowell: My family’s Jewish, though my parents were emphatically not religious. (Atheists, in fact. Members of the Ethical Culture Society.) As a little girl, I was told by a playmate on the way to school — her name was Christine, Catholic, Polish last name — that I was going to hell because “the Jews” had killed Christ. I knew I hadn’t killed anybody, and stormed off, pissed as hell, to tell my mother. Fast forward to several weeks or months later, when Christine’s family invited me to Sunday Mass and a huge family breakfast. I went, of course. No one said anything about Christ-killing and I had a great time.

    Oh, yeah, and I was baptised Catholic some 15 years later.

  213. 213.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @coin operated: They weren’t just gunned down, they were then accused by their fellow travelers of faking their own injuries as a part of an anti gun ownership conspiracy.

  215. 215.

    Immanentize

    @debbie: I taught in San Antonio at St. Mary’s University for a decade. My son, who was born in Texas, would probably do really well at Rice which has an outstanding engineering program. My in-laws live near Houston. But sheeet.

  216. 216.

    opiejeanne

    @Immanentize: I think First Baptist just designates first Baptist church in the area, unless they use a totally different system than the rest of the mainstream protestant churches, and Baptists are mainstream churches.

  217. 217.

    Immanentize

    @opiejeanne: True but Southern Baptists don’t really recognize other Baptists as capable of being first in Texas. Waco has the State pretty well locked up.

  218. 218.

    Lizzy L

    @Adria McDowell: I think “terrible” is too big a word for it. Given the context, it was no big deal. We’re talking about the early 1950s in NYC — it was pretty common to hear that kind of taunt, religious or race-based, in the neighborhoods, and because it was common, it had no power. I don’t know who in the family my friend Christine had heard it from. I doubt it was her parents, who in retrospect were clearly embarrassed by it. The subject never surfaced again.

  219. 219.

    opiejeanne

    @Immanentize: It’s not first in the state, it’s first in town. There are First Baptists all over the country, and they are not Southern Baptists. Just like First United Methodists, First Presbyterian. Second and third churches usually choose something other than a number for their name. Like Cavalry Presbyterian, or Grace United Methodist. By the way, United Methodists are what I’m referring to. There are churches using the term Methodist in their name but they are throwback to something from the Deep South, hard-shell fundamentalists.

  220. 220.

    opiejeanne

    Southern Baptist churches in California always include Southern in their names, regardless of the rest of their name, First or Cavalry or Arlingont.

  222. 222.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @opiejeanne: I’ve never seen Southern Baptist in a church’s name. I do recall several years ago when the Baptist churches started taking anything that would identify them as members of the Convention off their signs. It seems people wouldn’t visit a Southern Baptist church when church shopping.

  225. 225.

    J R in WV

    Wife attended Baptist Temple as a child, a church of the American Baptist denomination, which severed from what became Southern Baptist over the issue of whether slave owners were able to be missionaries to Africa, and slave ownership in general later on.

    No longer participates.

  226. 226.

    jonas

    @Adam L Silverman: Trump’s Commerce secretary did not disclose ties to Putin family

    If they haven’t figured it out already, all a good journalist needs to do to make his or her career these days is just to listen to whatever malfeasance Trump or one of his surrogates accuses Clinton/Dems/Obama of committing, and then start digging around on that. All they do is project. They can’t help it, it seems.

  228. 228.

    Barry

    @MisterForkbeard: “@Zach: I wonder about this – is it that all the omitted links are to Russia, or is it just that they’ve omitted a ton of financial and personal links but we’re only looking for the Russian ones?”

    (1). These guys have layers and accountants, and a priceless chance to ‘revise’ their lies, rather than face justice for them. They’d be idiots not to get it legit, sine they know that experts will be scrutinizing them.

    (2). I am sure that the FBI went through everthing, not just the obvious.

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