As I’ve written in comments a couple of times over the last few days, I think from early indications from reporting coming out of some state capitols, that you’re going to see allegations of sexual improprieties wash through elected and appointed officials in the states and at the Federal level. This is going to get real ugly real fast once momentum picks up. What I think we’re going to see is three different types of allegations. There will be allegations dealing with sexual predation – harassment, assault, rape. There will also be allegations dealing with infidelity leading to calls of hypocrisy, with some of the infidelity involving lobbyists leading to accusations of sex for favors. Finally, there will be allegations of officials, elites, and/or notables who are closeted LGBTQ Americans. Some will be outed for hypocrisy. Some will also be accused of engaging in predation a la Speaker Hastert or Congressman Foley or Kevin Spacey. This last type will also include just plain old infidelities just like their heterosexual colleagues. Their will also, unfortunately, be some who are likely to just get outed as it all finally comes out even though they weren’t ready to come out. Essentially they’ll be collateral damage.
There are also going to be other effects. The first is that as the floodgates get forced open this is going to spread. It won’t be contained to the entertainment industry or to elected and/or appointed officials – it is going to spread from industry to industry and a long overdue reckoning will hopefully take place. Including changes in business practices, as well as new laws, rules, regulations, and eventually prosecutions for crimes where that is still a possibility.
At the same time there will likely be attempts to weaponize allegations against one’s political or business rivals. False allegations will eventually be created to ruin business or political rivals. If this happens, and I think it’s likely, it will also be used to undercut the legitimacy of the real accusers and undermine their allegations. If this does happen it will provide the opening for pushback from the forces of reaction that never want any progress to be made on any important issue because it makes them uncomfortable or challenges their authority or their privilege. And this will likely muddy the waters enough to allow for the beginning of what will be the inevitable push back. There has never been a period of progress, especially fast progress that resulted from long suppressed calls for justice, that wasn’t immediately followed by a fast and concerted push back. Including attempts to roll back all the gains and reestablish some imagined and idealized golden age before all the unfortunate and unnecessary change was pushed through. The forces of reaction are strong and they are always waiting for a chance to try to go back to get to a better future.
One of the things we all have to be prepared to do is to specifically support those we know who decide to come forward as we are generally supportive of those who come forward that we do not know. We have to set the conditions for those women and men, and in some really terrible instances girls and boys, to feel safe and supported enough to make this stand and fight this fight. And we have to be prepared to be supportive of those who wind up as collateral damage – and there will be collateral damage here. Finally, we have to hold the line for them when the inevitable pushback begins.
Corner Stone
I think Gabe Sherman’s work at Vanity Fair on Roger Ailes/FOX really needs some big time credit on moving this issue forward.
Bill Arnold
Since it’s an open thread,
GOP Plan Retains Tax Break for Golf-Course Owners (Eric Levitz, nymag, 2017/11/09)
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: Yes it does.
Adam L Silverman
@Bill Arnold: Now how did that get in there?
Major Major Major Major
I sure hope the reckoning comes for Silicon Valley.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
Anyone heard about the “new” Charlie Sheen accusation?
debbie
So today I hear about Louie CK and Roy Moore. This is a fucking epidemic. I apologize for any perceived irreverence, but I’m beginning to think the only true sign of the Messiah will be a man with zero slime in his past.
Mike J
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): Raping one of the Coreys or newer than that?
Bill Arnold
Do you have any tactics/best practices in mind to weaken (neuter?) this effect?
For example, this happened with SJW (social justice warrior) becoming a pejorative(/code word) on the right. (Not helped by pursuit-of-the-purity-asymtote driven excesses in some progressive communities.)
LurkerNoLonger
@debbie:
Obama really was the Messiah!
Mike J
@debbie:
Well, yeah, that’s a pretty mainstream Christian interpretation.
Manyakitty
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): Other than Corey Feldman?
lamh36
Chuck Todd asked Charlie Cook if Roy Moore would still win…and Charlie Cook didn’t hesistate…”yes”.
Chuckles was all wincing…”but…evangelicals…” and Charlie Cook was like “sorry, but it’s it STILL highly likely that Roy Moore will be swearing in as a Senator after December…”
Cook and all the other panelists were like…hell, the “conservative/evangelical” base is MORE likely to believe Moore about FAKE NEWS and STILL vote for him
The former Bushie, w/the Southern accent on MTP, is REALLY trying to hold onto the idea that if “another” story was to come through, that Roy Moore would then be in trouble w/the conserv/evangelical base…and the rest of the panel including Chuckles were like…nah…I don’t even think another coming forward would mean anything either..
lamh36
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: It will. It’ll be on instagram or something…
Bill Arnold
@Adam L Silverman:
Dunno. The thought came to mind that it might have been inserted so that Trump could demand magnanimously that it be removed.
Rather doofy plan if so.
Adam L Silverman
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): Yep.
lamh36
Adam L Silverman
@debbie: The Louie CK allegations have been bouncing around for a while.
debbie
@lamh36:
Evangelicals have already shown they willingly tossed aside their Christian values to worship at the bloated feet of Donald Trump.
Adam L Silverman
@Bill Arnold: I have not given any actual thought to this. Sorry.
Manyakitty
@Adam L Silverman: MySpace
Gin & Tonic
@lamh36: Part of me hopes Roy Moore wins, and then can be hung like a dead weight around the neck of every GOP Senator.
Baud
@lamh36: I expect him to call the women liars.
lamh36
Corner Stone
What the hell would you do with 5 women in your hotel room? It’s too many to play board games.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: Cooke is not wrong. Then the question becomes whether the GOP majority in the Senate refuses to seat him and/or expels him. All those pious, pained looking GOP senators today, what will they do?
lamh36
Any BJ lawyers want to speak to the validity of this?
Cheryl Rofer
Adam, I think you are missing some things here. That’s not surprising, because a lot has been going on that is invisible to men. I don’t think you’re wrong in anything you say, but I would challenge the emphasis in your post.
ALL women have been subject to inappropriate sexual behavior FOREVER. I doubt there exists a woman in the United States who has not had sexual remarks made to her from out of what seemed like nowhere. Then there is groping, stalking, weird emails, and full-up rape, with a bunch of other things. I’ve been relatively lucky and escaped rape and some of the approaches to it, but I’ve experienced some of this.
AND NOW WE ARE FED UP AND DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT
Every woman I know who has said something has said yes, of course something like that happened to me, but I didn’t say anything because I knew that would make it worse. That is why men don’t know about it. I’ve also seen responsible men I know saying wow, I had no idea this was going on. And I believe them.
So let’s watch what women do for a while. Reports are coming from men about similar things, and I have no reason to doubt them. But the reported perpetrators so far have all been men – powerful men who feel they can get away with it. And they have had good reason to believe that, because they watched their mentors getting away with it.
I agree that eventually there will be misuses, but that has been one of the ways women have been silenced in the past. How about a false accusation of rape? That would damage any man’s reputation, poor babies, so let’s not believe any woman. How many false accusations have there been so far?
So let’s listen to the women and men who have been mistreated. Let’s make sure there is supporting evidence. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves in thinking about how this could go wrong.
Small edits for clarity.
debbie
@Major Major Major Major:
And publishing, and probably every single, friggin’ profession.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
@Manyakitty: It was Haim; Corey wrote about it, but Sheen was just identified this week. It’s been pointed out he has a history of domestic violence…presumably “dead girl/[no longer] live boy” would sink his career (such as it is) for good?
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: But I want it nowww!
Gravenstone
@debbie: It’s always been epidemic. In keeping with the disease model of description, we now have a much better understanding of how to “diagnose” the disease (in this case, building on the momentum of others who have come forward). As Adam’s post portends, this is simply going to build steam in terms of numbers and scope. While she may have been denied the office, I also wonder if Hillary enduring through the endless attacks upon her might have afforded some abuse victims the impetus to endure as well, in finally feeling able to come forward. Or, perhaps it’s as simply ascribed to broad disgust that Trump and his loud crudeness and abusive nature were elected? Probably some synergy involving a variety of events.
Major Major Major Major
@lamh36: Moore is down 40 today, to 49%, on PredictIt.
debbie
@lamh36:
Five bucks his reaction will be to demand legislation legalizing pu$$ygrabbing.
Corner Stone
@Gin & Tonic: If he wins this gets memory holed. No downside.
debbie
@lamh36:
Just the thought of Stephen Miller’s perp walk…
Gravenstone
@lamh36: High fives all around, followed by hoots and hollers of , “my man!”
? Martin
@debbie:
This has been going on forever, and people stayed quiet forever. I don’t have to remind women how common this kind of behavior is, but it’s even more common among the rich and powerful. Adam is exactly right – this will get way, way worse. I’m going to conservatively guess that ⅓ of elected men (and half of entertainers) have some wrongdoing in their past. It will be of a scale that we’re going to have to decide what to excuse just for the sake of things not falling apart.
Everyone knew about Weinstein. That I was told in no uncertain terms about it years ago from people in the industry means that everyone in the industry knows, and a big part of why it was kept quiet is due to how widespread that behavior is. Uma Thurman is not angry about some rando that came onto her, but about an entire industry that colluded to protect that behavior on a vast scale, including a lot of people who claim to be shocked to learn about behavior that you could only not know about if you were repeatedly lobotomizing yourself. People knew about Louis CK. We’ve known about Charlie Sheen since the 80s.
It’s always been an epidemic, just one that those in power didn’t want to face up to. Well, thankfully that’s changing. The uglier it gets the better – we’re terrible at coming clean and fixing our behavior.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: No arguments from me. At all.
Frank McCormick
For all our recent talk about tumbrels, I am worried that the unscrupulous and the hysterical can create a mini-reign of terror. (Think back to the eighties satanist accusations or the red scare of the forties and fifties.) Things can get out of hand REALLY fast, especially as those that tolerated and enabled sexual predation in the past overcompensate.
I am NOT saying that we can’t call out the sexual miscreants and CRIMINALS. But the floodgates are opening and there’s a LOT of evil that has backed up over the years. We need to make sure that not everything gets washed away in the process.
Manyakitty
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): I think the AIDS finally killed his career. I almost wrote “Coreys”. Ha! This sickness is EVERYWHERE. Gonna be a rough few years coming up.
? Martin
@Corner Stone: Yeah, I don’t know either. I mean, once you have the two peeing on the bed and the one holding the video recorder, what need do you have for the other two?
lamh36
Cheryl Rofer: <——- what she said!
https://media.giphy.com/media/9aPBhThp26KIg/giphy.gif
I get what Adam is trying to say with this post, but…I agree w/Cheryl
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/msy.gif
SiubhanDuinne
@Cheryl Rofer:
Thank you, Cheryl.
Corner Stone
@debbie: I’ll take that bet. Trump is going to FAKE NEWS!!! the hell out of it.
debbie
@? Martin:
My best friend was Harvey’s first assistant. This was before the Weinsteins had had any success, and so had no power to hold over women. But I heard him bullying my friends and others plenty of times.
I have my own experiences, but I wasn’t aware that abuse was as common as it’s turning out to be. Not something you chat up over a Starbuck’s.
Gin & Tonic
@Corner Stone: I don’t know about that. It feels to me like something has changed pretty fundamentally.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: @debbie: He drafted the initial memo to justify firing Comey. It was so bad White House Counsel Don McGahn made them start all over. He’s in a lot of trouble. Also, we have documentation of him trying to give orders to folks at DHS and local sheriffs. Those are major no nos. He’s a White House advisor, he has no authority to give anyone in government, at any level, orders.
jl
” At the same time there will likely be attempts to weaponize allegations against one’s political or business rivals. False allegations will eventually be created to ruin business or political rivals. ”
When these toxic aspects of powerful people’s personal histories come out, it is problematic in some ways. Good that it comes out. But when cannot be settled in court of law, or some similar format, there is a problem of how to decide gravity of offence, what punishment is appropriate, whether and how person and their career’s can be rehabilitated. And sooner or later there will be false accusations. Whatever bad behavior Bill Clinton is guilty of, I think there was clearly a campaign to smear him with false allegations, for example, for base partisan political purposes.
So far though, not much nuance or gray areas in the famous cases emerging right now. They are all vile assaults involving some form of coercion, usually blunt force, or powerful adult messing around with minors (I think the most problematic Weiner weiner pics are an example).
debbie
@Adam L Silverman:
Suzanne would say it better than I could, but I admit to feeling tingly. I hate Miller as much as I hate Trump.
TheMightyTrowel
It’s finally being addressed in academia – but feels like the dam’s about to burst. I’m stocking up on popcorn fur when it does. I’ve worked with so many predatory men and never been in a position to do more than contribute to the whisper network.
Major Major Major Major
Adam, is this Bloomberg article about the ‘Putinizing’ of Saudi Arabia on point? https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-09/saudi-arabia-is-putinizing-not-modernizing
Mike in NC
ABC News is going to do a segment tonight with Trump’s ex-bodyguard having something to do with five women in Moscow in 2013.
lamh36
@Corner Stone: Personally, I think Chump can’t get it up…he’s a old guy, and has such complexes about his “bigliness” that I’d bet dollars to donuts, that he suffers from ED.
So 5 women is too many for him anyway…
rikyrah
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD):
More young people came forward to accuse him?
debbie
@Mike in NC:
I think NBC beat them to it.
Mike J
Frank McCormick
@Frank McCormick: It occurs to me that I needed to add a major caveat. I am NOT talking about the women who finally feel empowered to speak up (or male targets of whatever age). I am worried about the folks in power (and, yes, that would principally men) using this as a means of purging their enemies and the hysterical mob mentality that can easily be whipped up to do their bidding. (Is there a corresponding word for hysteria that is not gendered? Asking for a friend .)
Mary G
@Cheryl Rofer: Yep. Thanks. There will be blowback to the blowback. Many women are done excusing this. Rage about Twitler getting elected fueled the Women’s March and the recent election results much more than has been credited, because every woman has been through this multiple times. That saying that men are afraid women will laugh at them, but women are afraid men will kill them is true.
WaterGirl
@lamh36: I’ve got money that says Trump takes little blue pills.
Doug R
@Bill Arnold: My response to “SJW”.
When did justice become a bad word?
WaterGirl
@lamh36: One to have sex with, 4 to pee on the bed? :-)
rikyrah
@Major Major Major Major:
I hope that you answer this question in a post
Mart
I correct men when they refer to a young female colleagues as a girls. When men say stuff like she’s so hot or worse, I try to change the subject, (bringing up daughters usually stops them in their tracks). I am still learning though. Recently in the coffee room a woman who I never spoke with before asked if I knew how to turn on the coffee machine. I said first you talk nice to it. Thought a harmless joke as I reached around (the machine); but got the death stare. I asked an HR woman at another company why was she so upset at my dumb joke. She explained I do not know her history; what if she had previously been harassed at work, or something similar. Opened my eyes.
zhena gogolia
@Mike in NC:
OOOO blya!
LurkerNoLonger
@Mike J: What is it with guys named Weiner?
Corner Stone
If Roy Moore touched one minor he touched 50. He used his position as ADA to threaten, bully, cajole, sweet-talk vulnerable people to let him have his way. There is zero chance this stops at 4 accusers.
He’s been married a long time. That kind of compulsion does not go away by virtue of the love of a good woman.
Ladyraxterinok
PZ Meyer at his blog pharyngula has been reporting on sexual harassment in academia for several months. He has focused especially on the problem women undergrads, graduate students, and lower level teaching staff face in STEM fields.
Horrendous instances from many prestige universities involving nationally and iternationally famous scholars.
And, of course, the often decades-long ignoring and covering up of the charges.
Mike J
@LurkerNoLonger: Nominative determinism.
lamh36
@Corner Stone: right…wasn’t the 14 year old involved in a custody case Moore was involved in or something…the incident occurred after taking the teen from a hearing…ugh
No Drought No More
Hell hath no fury than women deprived of putting one of their own in the White House by virtue of a calculated and dastardly attack by a foreign power upon the United States of America. Moreover, it was more than even that. It was an attack upon the country they love, orchestrated by the hands of an all too typical American male asshole.
And it’s beautiful to watch their retribution unfold.
Not all American males are complete fully formed assholes, you know. Fair is fair.
Tom Q
@? Martin:”It will be of a scale that we’re going to have to decide what to excuse just for the sake of things not falling apart. ”
An analogy might be what happened with accounting firms after the Enron scandal. I worked at one of the non-implicated firms, and it was universally agreed in my circles that all firms had done something like what Arthur Andersen did for Enron. But had government regulators punished all equally, the entire industry would have collapsed, leaving all audited industries with no accountability whatever.
I’m sure the prospect of purging huge numbers of legislators (or Hollywood folk, or the nabobs of any other arena) holds a certain giddy appeal. But the possibility of sheer chaos looms if we go after too many people at once; we might have to triage, by level of culpability.
jl
@Corner Stone: Moore was a grown ass man who sweet talked kids long enough to get them alone where he could force himself on them. Pretty clear cut MO, and I agree. If just one accusation, some chance it was a one time thing, but yeah, get another, and now four, almost sure many more disgusting Moore assaults out there, just not public yet.
Cckids
@debbie: Listening to NPR this afternoon & the guy newsreader says re/ Louis C.K., “But I’ve heard he asked permission before proceeding (to masturbate), and yet these women are STILL calling it harassment. Is that really the case?”
I was yelling so loud that I drew the attention of the car next to me. Jackass.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: I think the most apt analogy I’ve seen recently is that Muhammad bin Salman is trying to turn Saudi into Singapore. And for all that everyone is freaking about Saudi taking a hardline in regard to Lebanon as a new proxy front in its proxy war for regional hegemony with Iran that it is important to remember that the Saudi military is terrible. They are basically presentation and parade militaries. They can’t fight effectively as individual services and we’re being paid millions, funneled through defense contractors, to try to teach them to fight as a joint force. Between their inability to beat a tribal force in Yemen, and Muhammad bin Salman’s complete failure as a military strategist and tactician and the ineffectiveness of Saudi’s military forces, he doesn’t have much to work with. And if he expects the US to back his play if push really comes to shove, he needs to think long and hard about two words: independent Kurdistan.
Mnemosyne
@Cheryl Rofer:
I’m slightly torn, because just today I read an accusation against a world-famous astronomer that seemed … a little shaky. As in, the person making the accusation seems like she may have some mental health issues, plus her story of what she says happened 20+ years ago seems to have changed several times within a few weeks. So I do think that credibility needs to be a consideration, especially when there’s a single accuser about something that happened long ago.
And yet I hate even having to say that. ?
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@ Martin: Neck and foot massage?
lamh36
lamh36
Adria McDowell
Someone mentioned that they believe that 1/3 of male politicians and entertainers have skivvy pasts- imagine what that number might be among male service members.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike in NC: Yep, Schiller testified he put the kibosh on an offer, which he described as a joke, to send five women to the President’s room.
lamh36
Faithful lurker
@Cheryl Rofer: WORD!
MoxieM
@? Martin: Yup. I don’t know anything about entertainment, but I’ll throw a couple bucks in the ring for abuse of female graduate students. And, not just in labs (notorious) or in Philosophy Depts (also notorious).
I’m going to make a wild statement, and say it permeates all departments, at all kinds of institutions from Ivies to R1s to Lord-knows-where. Any time there is that power discrepancy, and where women–especially young ones–are dependent on older men in a generally informal system of advancement by personal fiefdom and apprenticeship, sexualized abuse will be rampant.
jl
@lamh36: Moore’s MO reported in the initial allegation seemed clearly predatory, and part of an intentional plan. And once more than one incident is reported, I think almost sure it was a regular habit with this guy. So, I am not surprised they have 30 sources.
Thoughtful David
@debbie: His name is Obama.
lamh36
So they intend to sue the WashPo…NOT the women?
BTW…anyone know if there is an age difference between Roy Moore and his wife
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Frank McCormick: Moral panic.
debbie
@Cckids:
Yeah, I heard that and had the same reaction.
Mary G
Well, the Senate just unanimously passed a resolution that everyone in the Capitol must undergo mandatory sexual harassment training, so we can put this topic to bed.//
lamh36
debbie
@lamh36:
It must be bad. Mitch McConnell has called for Moore to withdraw from the race if these stories are true.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
I know I’m really bad at flirting so I don’t even try. Wouldn’t want to risk making an ass of myself. Normal conversations with women, I’m just fine. And hearing from actual women, most of them don’t want to be bothered in public. The relationships I’ve been in have usually happened because the woman was already interested in me.
Assholes like Weinstein do what they do not so much for sex but for the power they can exert over women. It’s awful and disgusting.
Adam L Silverman
@LurkerNoLonger: Labeling theory.
http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195396607/obo-9780195396607-0078.xml
Mnemosyne
Also, too, we need to be prepared that the right wing is going to try and turn this from stories of harassment and rape to stories about sex and consensual kinkiness.
They’re going to try and claim it’s all about the sex, when it’s not. It’s all about the coercion.
Baud
@Mary G:
Do they realize it’s not a how-to?
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman: And if he had said, “Ok” what happens next on this “joke”? We all should know this is what RIS does. It was not a damn joke. And there is no way Trump turned it down.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: Trouble is, you’ll never find anybody to take the other side of that bet.
Ladyraxterinok
@? Martin: You could see the senators freaking out during the Anita Hill hearing. You could see them begin to realize that what was ‘clearly’ just a bit of fun might not be how the woman experienced it.
One result of the hearing, women running for Congress.
Aleta
@Cheryl Rofer: Well said, and thanks.
@lamh36: Well giffed !
And this
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: The WaPo reporting is very, very tight. I’ve read high confidence intel assessments based on less than 30 sources.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: And that was before this news broke.
Timurid
The GOP defense of Moore is a dress rehearsal for if/when Mueller shows us the smoking gun.
Adam L Silverman
@Adria McDowell: It is going to be very, very ugly. Across a number of professional domains and areas.
Timurid
@lamh36:
On what grounds? Mrs. Moore hasn’t been accused of anything.
Uncle Ebeneezer
Just curious: Adam/others, is this news? Any ramifications for Mueller’s investigation?
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/928725982088974338
Credenzal Clearwater Revival
@Gravenstone Hugh Hefner dying moved the Zeitgeist, too. His era lost a symbol. The coming era got a reminder that coerced consent in the work place is wrong, regardless of whether it’s been accepted as regular business for years.
The age of the playboy man has passed…
jl
I have no sympathy with people asking whether there is a big issue about ‘trusting’ the sources for these kinds of allegations.
First, off, adults acting this way at all with people under 18 is very sketchy to begin with. Can Moore not count to 18?
And second, is there any evidence that the accusers are lying or embellishing, or is there not? Is their a clear and categorical denial by Moore, or is there not? You can make checklists for this kind of thing.
Yeah, a person can fall pray to smears from gray areas of behavior (though so far I have yet to hear even once case like that in the current string of accusations against famous powerful people, from Crosby on up to Moore). And always possible for dishonest people to fabricate out of whole cloth. But anyone claiming that needs to produce specific evidence of that going on. Totally generalized vague questions about the allegations with the intent to minimize or discredit them is BS.
And that also, I think time to discuss the disgusting procedure set up US Congress to handle these kinds of allegations that institutionalizes that kind of BS to automatically discredit the allegations.
Corner Stone
I don’t know why MSNBC keeps having RWNJ spokespeople on their air? They are all fucking nuts and just rapid fire spit out talking points. That are all nonsense, debunked garbage.
Adria McDowell
@Adam L Silverman: Yup.
Corner Stone
When do we see the deluge of Whataboutism = Bill Clinton?
Villago Delenda Est
@lamh36: The 2nd Amendment didn’t mean 3/5ths of a person could posses, let alone OWN, a firearm…
Corner Stone
@lamh36: He has four accusers on the record. Please, please, please let this go to discovery.
Cheryl Rofer
@Mnemosyne: As I said, let’s make sure the accusations are reliable before we run with them. It’s possible the woman you mention has mental health issues AND was assaulted. The second can lead to or exacerbate the first. But let’s make sure the accusations are reliable.
One point I’ve seen made on Twitter is that when a major news outlet prints something like the accusations against Roy Moore, they’ve done a lot of verification and fact-checking. There was an article in Science magazine about a month ago that was almost unbelievable in the venom and general craziness spewed by a famous male scientist against a female graduate student who was working with him in Antarctica, but I figure if Science is willing to publish it, they must have some pretty good evidence.
Word of mouth – probably less so, depending on whose mouth it is.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: They married in 85, she was his secretary for a while.
She’s clearly younger than he is, but I can’t find a birth date anywhere.I found it, she’s 52, so she married him at2220. He’s 70.schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: Which astronomer? Hawking?
Cheryl Rofer
@Uncle Ebeneezer: I’d wait for a few more confirmations to roll in. Abramson draws conclusions much more quickly than I do.
Mart
@lamh36: In 1985, Moore, then 38, married Kayla Kisor, 24, who was divorced with a daughter.
Mike J
@lamh36:
She’s 56. he’s 70.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: That’ll be part of the reaction and attempt to roll back whatever positive changes occur because of what we’re seeing happen.
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: I was not there. I can only tell you what I saw reported on MNBC this afternoon.
smintheus
False allegations have existed for a long time. I’ve known a few people who obviously got pleasure from spreading false allegations for little or no apparent reason…liars who took in a surprising number of people.
It’s important not to get carried away by allegations; unless they’re proven or there’s strong supporting evidence they should be treated as allegations rather than facts. It’s one thing to choose to believe allegations, another to pretend that you know their factual value.
TenguPhule
@Baud:
With Republicans, you can’t be sure about that.
This may be a how-to on how not to get caught.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mnemosyne:
Consensual kinkiness is fine. However, the shit that’s been coming out lately is definitely not consensual and has little to do with sex. It’s about control and domination. I hope this doesn’t get derailed into something bad.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: Pretty sure you’re right about that!
Mike J
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Minors. Can’t. Consent.
Cheryl Rofer
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: This.
It’s a way to keep women down. Remind them that they are supposed to be sexual slaves. Remind them that you are bigger and stronger. Remind them that you can get them fired.
And it’s very damaging to the women. Did I do something wrong? Can I avoid this by dressing/acting differently? What if he decides to fire me anyway?
When you’re second-guessing yourself all the time, you can’t do your job well.
smintheus
@Uncle Ebeneezer: I hadn’t see that info before.
Adam L Silverman
@Uncle Ebeneezer: Maybe. Here’s Wood’s reporting:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427
And the relevant portions:
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Mike J:
The Moore stuff? Oh you’re definitely right, they can’t.
Aleta
Re: going to get ugly. The ugliness has been happening all along–abuse, then silencing, trivializing, attacks, mistrust, PTSD, re-victimizing, increased susceptibility to domestic violence and religious cults. Many careers and dreams wrecked. NYT Op Ed by the swimmer Diana Nyad: My Life After Sexual Assault.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: They’ve already been doing this. Rush Limbaugh was trying to sell the idea of consent as some sort of license the eeeeevil liberals to do whatever we want ergo it’s bad.
jl
I long thought the sexual harassment training I have to do for work was BS. I complained the examples and scenarios were so outrageous than any fool would know not to act that way.
So,putting your hands down someone’s pants or up someone’s skirt, tit grabbing, forced kissing, dick poking, grabbing, tackling cornering, threatening, bullying. Repeatedly harassing someone who has already said ‘no thanks’ to an invitation half a dozen times. I guess I was wrong. Apparently, this stuff happens often. But from what I read in the news, maybe the problem is that the people who do this are not ignorant, and they use the sexual harassment training as a ‘how-to’ not to get caught at it.
Goobergunch
@Corner Stone: And you’d need one more for Diplomacy.
Mike in NC
@Corner Stone: Andrew Lack is the name.
SatanicPanic
@Corner Stone: When did that stop?
lamh36
@Adam L Silverman: betting the Post reached out to them about the story before reporting…and they decided not to do the debate
lamh36
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: When I was in training to go to Iraq, which was provided by the Prime contractor on the project, the ethics training was done by a professor they brought in to oversee the methodology block. On one of the breaks, because he was speaking to a fellow PhD who has a Y chromosome he informed me that he was headed out that evening to do something with his daughter. I said that was nice. He said he’s been the bad guy in the divorce. I said sorry to hear that. Before I could move away he then informed me it was his fault for having an affair while doing research at the winter over station in the Antarctic. His research was observing the social dynamics of the researchers confined there over a long, bitterly cold winter in harsh unforgiving conditions. He was the only non research team member there. Meaning that he didn’t just have an affair, he had an affair with one of his research subjects.
My after action report on that block of training was something special. I was then asked to write up a full report by the Program Manager, as someone who had previously taught both research methods and ethics for research. This was also something special.
TenguPhule
What worries me the most is that the most probable lesson Republicans are learning from this is “leave no evidence or witnesses”.
I think women’s well justified fears of male violence just got a bit more concrete.
different-church-lady
Jesus, what a week…
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: Abramson draws conclusions much more quickly than everyone.
SiubhanDuinne
@jl:
Someone on FB, and I am paraphrasing, noted the irony of Roy Moore + 4 young girls vs. Doug Jones + 4 young girls. The contrast couldn’t be greater.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
Is that what they called “really sucked” in those days?
TS
@lamh36: Nothing new about Trump contradicting tillerson – I assume tillerson is waiting for his 12 months to be up so he avoids tax on his millions – and we may hear what he really thinks of the job.
geg6
@lamh36:
Yes, something like 14 years. He was dating her around the time of at least one of these accusations. So that means she was possibly a teenager herself.
Jay S
@Corner Stone:
Charades?
Felonius Monk
@debbie:
I think we had one of those in the White House from 2009 to 2017. Some, however, refused to believe he was the messiah.
TS
@debbie:
IF – little word, big meaning – the GOP included no IF when discussing what should happen with Weinstein. Moore has denied all – Mitch will accept the denial.
lamh36
@Adam L Silverman: Wait, If they have been married for 32 years and she’s 52 now, then they got married when she was 20?
ETA: She’s 56…sorry…so yeah 24.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: The Prime contractor on that contract doesn’t like me very much. There’s an Army contracting officer, because of all the bad mouthing that the Prime did, also doesn’t like me very much. The Program Manager, however, always had my back.
Starfish
@Mnemosyne: I read the accusation against Neil de Grasse Tyson a few weeks ago. There was also an accusation against Elie Wiesel.
Adam L Silverman
@Jay S: 3 on 3 waste basket basket ball! Also, can’t you have up to six players in trivial pursuit? Was there a Trump version of Trivial Pursuit? Maybe they were playing Trump! The Game?
https://www.amazon.com/Hasbro-Trump-Game-Discontinued-manufacturer/dp/B0002CEXOU
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: So many things there – an ethics professor doing that, and then bragging about it to someone he barely knows. There have been some lurid stories (not just stories) about university philosophy departments too. It shows how normalized men using sex as power has been. I hope your reports were received well, and thank you for doing them.
dexwood
@different-church-lady:
What a year…
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady: And the week’s not even over yet.
Corner Stone
@Jay S: Are you kidding? Unless they played the Trump Empire Brand ™ version of charades there is no way Trump would ever be able to recognize any of the drawings.
SiubhanDuinne
@lamh36:
I wish the debate sponsor(s) would do it anyhow, with an empty podium and (if they dare; alas, they daren’t) 60 or 90 seconds of dead air whenever Moore would normally have made a statement or answered a question. If I were George Soros I’d cover all costs, just for the lulz.
TenguPhule
@dexwood: And two more months to go.
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady:
I get on a plane for Chicago and all hell breaks loose.
TenguPhule
@Felonius Monk: Like the original, they refused to believe in him if he wasn’t white.
JR
@Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): that has been a rumor for some time. Seems credible, but who knows.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: According to the report I found she’s 52. And they married in 85. So yep, she was 20. My fault, my sinuses are killing me – my eyes actually hurt. So I made a subtraction error. I’ll fix it.
Uncle Ebeneezer
Since we are on this topic, does anyone know of any organizations that specifically focus on policies to address sexual harassment in the workplace (especially Entertainment/Hollywood?). I live just a couple stone-throws from Hollywood (and my wife works there along with a lot of people I know) and I’ve been trying to start looking into ways that my Indivisible group and all the activists and orgs we know can start to try to organize around this problem since it’s hugely important, very much in the public eye currently and could be a target for local action.
Given how much of the Resistance is being led by women, this seems like a no-brainer for something we should start working on. I’m just having a tough time wrapping myself around the problem in all it’s complexities. I’ve reached out to my friends with knowledge of the entertainment industry and some Women’s Rights policy centers but so far haven’t had a lot of luck.
lamh36
different-church-lady
@SiubhanDuinne:
Why the hell would we want Moore to get that kind of assistance?
Baud
It’s still ok to blog naked, right?
dexwood
@TenguPhule:
And 2018 coming to a neighborhood near you soon! No time to roll over and show a soft underside.
JMG
Adam, as usual your post leaves little possible comment but “you’re right.”
Kay
@lamh36:
I’d wait until you actually see that lawsuit filed and then wait some more. Anyone can file just about anything in the US civil system. It means absolutely nothing as to merits of the claim.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: He wasn’t really an ethicist. Just an anthropologist that had gotten contracted to provide and oversee the methods block of instruction, which included the ethics block. My understanding is he was buddies with the retired lieutenant colonel who worked for the Prime contractor as the director of training (before he was fired and then investigated for misuse of government funds).
I found it very, very odd that anyone would just blurt that out, but he did.
different-church-lady
So…. uh… dare I wonder… dare I even think… that this is the silver lining? That we had to go through the horror of Trump to finally do something about all the puss that had been just below the surface the whole time?
Baud
@Kay:
They are listening to you, Kay.
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/11/09/rebuilding-the-democratic-party-from-the-ground-up/
different-church-lady
@Baud: Put some tape over the camera, stupid.
Adam L Silverman
@different-church-lady: So you’re saying that the President is America’s exfoliating scrub?
Cheryl Rofer
@different-church-lady: I keep hoping.
Kay
@lamh36:
I’m sad about him. I don’t really think he’s “funny” like hah hah can’t stop laughing but his stuff always interested me. He’s one of the rare adults who treats children like people. Like they have dignity and inherent rights and are separate, complex…beings.
Apparently that doesn’t extent to women.
different-church-lady
@Adam L Silverman: More sort of a high colonic I would say.
Ghost of Joe Lieblings Dog
@Cckids: NPR making nice to power. Weekday ending in ‘day.’
I keep hoping their own peers will call them out on their approach to journalism – that may never happen, though.
Suzanne
@debbie:
It’s Ralph Lauren of Arabia himself, JARED, that I really hate.
There needs to be a word for the sexual arousal that occurs when bad things happen to bad people.
Kay
@Baud:
Hah! They DON’T listen to me! Don’t worry. That’s never stopped me from haranguing them. Sherrod Brown is a really sharp pol- he uses whatever trick they have to remember people- and when I want to shake his hand at a town hall he said “voting rights”. I was embarrassed. You hate to think you’re so predictable.
geg6
@Cheryl Rofer:
Thank you. This.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Schadenfuckem?
Adam L Silverman
@different-church-lady: This too shall pass…
Starfish
@Baud: This may hurt your future presidential campaign.
SiubhanDuinne
@MoxieM:
It’s everywhere. I believe I’ve previously mentioned the world-famous operatic baritone I interviewed for the radio intermission feature when he guest soloed with the local symphony. Put his hand on my knee, squeezed my thigh, invited me to his hotel room after the dress rehearsal. Found out later that he had also made similar “offers” to just about every female member of the orchestra and femal Symphony management.
We all, of course, declined.
His encore — I am not making this up! — was “I Got Plenty of Nuthin’.” LOL!!
lamh36
@Adam L Silverman: Well if she is 52, then that means she was 20…the age of the girls at the time of the allegations… 14, 17, 18…and he married a 20 year old who he had known longer since she clerked for him?
SMH…I mean even if she was 24…14, 17, 18 then JUMP to 24…ugh
Adam L Silverman
This one is just too easy for a Floriduh Man post!
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Cheryl Rofer:
I don’t mean for this to be pushback, just a clarification that this is not always true. My own #MeToo story is from junior high school, and the multiple instances of sexual assault were perpetrated by a group of girls in my class. The powerful part was still true: these were popular, high status girls picking on the (undiagnosed) autistic misfit.
Calouste
@lamh36: Translation: We can’t get rid of Louis C.K. via our normal sexual harassment procedures. We’re talking to our lawyers about other ways to terminate his contract.
smintheus
@MoxieM: My university just announced that a professor has been suspended for sexually inappropriate behavior. Turns out it was the flashy but academically shallow superstar they hired to be their public intellectual (go on the TV, which he does a lot). They gave him a salary out of all proportion to every other faculty salary; they gave him direct access to the highest levels of the administration for whatsoever he wanted. And he acted like a potentate. University is pretending that it acted proactively to ban him from campus during the investigation. Turns out, I’m told, that they knew the allegations for a year but hushed them up until the woman got a lawyer who got in touch with newspapers. Voila! The university is now shocked, shocked to hear what he is doing.
Oh, and an untenured woman faculty member in another department got the superstar’s classes dumped in her lap for the rest of the semester.
SiubhanDuinne
@lamh36:
He is 70, she’s 56.
different-church-lady
@Adam L Silverman: I fold.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: As I wrote I made a subtraction error, which I’m blaming on whatever is going on with my sinuses.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman: Now I question your entire analysis of the Middle East situation.
smintheus
@SiubhanDuinne: Name?
VeniceRiley
And that didn’t take long. “Mary was a teenager” UGH! http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mary-was-a-teenager-alabama-republican-uses-jesus-to-defend-roy-moore/ar-BBEMFAi?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp
Gross, bible thumpers. Just gross.
But yay Senator Walnuts!
I hope all the journos reporting these stories take the care and courage of Ronan Farrow to their bosom. Um, I mean …
#MeToo
KithKanan
@Adam L Silverman: More plausible than blaming your gastritis, at least.
different-church-lady
@VeniceRiley: Does that mean he thinks Roy Moore is God?
Cheryl Rofer
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: I’m sorry to hear about your experience. I agree it’s not just men who are the perpetrators, and I agree that it’s all about power. But too many times in the past, the overwhelmingly male (powerful) – woman (powerless) dynamic has been shut down by comments like “It happens to men too.”
It does, and we should out the predators and shame them. But most will be men.
Suzanne
@Baud: No, because it doesn’t make me want to fuck them.
Aleta
@Adam L Silverman: Besides researchers, there are support crew there who run the base during the winter-over, like pilots (used to be military, in the 70s Vietnam vets were the best pilots there), mechanics, communications. They’re now hired as employees of a primary contractor. And then there are scientist groups from many other countries.
SiubhanDuinne
@Corner Stone:
He said, she said, she said, she said, she said, she said.
lamh36
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Yup, it was all the
boozesinuses talking.Corner Stone
@SiubhanDuinne: WHERE’S THE PROOF?
Adam L Silverman
@KithKanan: I actually went and took a break this afternoon because it hurt to read. And inhaling also sort of burned. I initially thought my allergies were bothering me, but if it’s like this tomorrow morning I’m calling my primary care doc because I’ve got a sinus infection.
Adam L Silverman
@VeniceRiley: @different-church-lady: Also forgets that teenagers routinely married because most everyone was dead by 50 during that time period.
Felonius Monk
@Baud:
Only if you have a modesty panel attached to your computer desk.
lamh36
I totally agree with this…make them Alabama Republican mofos OWN IT!!!
Even when/if we lose…it’d be money well spent IMHO. And I’m not saying spend billions…but put in a fuqn’ effort at least!
Kay
Supposedly. He accepts the rest as fact but “14”? That’s “he said, she said”. I’ve been thinking about how one would prove one of these – obviously the 14 year old wasn’t prepping her case so not in this instance – but even for adult women- what do you do? Record it on a phone secretly, I guess, but you’d have to be pretty fast with that phone and how to keep it secret? Does it record clearly in a pocket? Aren’t 99% of these gonna be “he said, she said”?
Adam L Silverman
@Aleta: Tracking. I didn’t have all the details. My understanding is he was studying the social dynamics of the American research team.
I’m not judging him for having an affair. Stuff happens. And in an isolated situation I’m sure he wasn’t the first or the last to have one there. I’m judging him for then teaching a bunch of other folks how to be ethical researchers.
rikyrah
@Cheryl Rofer:
Bravo ???
Thank you
WereBear
@Mnemosyne: A sexual abuser is a serial abuser.
That is why multiple accusations are so powerful and believeable. Because it’s a rare predator who does it only once.
MomSense
@debbie:
Hahaha!! That was funny and I really needed a laugh today.
Back when my older boys were little, I was “just a stay at home mom”. I don’t know if anyone ever called me that but I certainly absorbed enough of that attitude that I said that many times when asked what I did. As I started to find my voice I would sometimes say that I considered raising boys to be feminists as a much needed service to society – mostly as a way to deflect the judgment I felt. Now I honestly think that raising boys to be feminists is a public service.
Part of the problem is that we are steeped in a misogynist culture that conditions too many men and women into accepting really destructive and unhealthy attitudes about masculinity, strength, women’s worth, identity, etc.
If this horrible nightmare we are all living through causes the sexist, racist underbelly of our society to be revealed and exorcised then perhaps this will have been worth the trouble and we can emerge a better people. It’s going to get uglier and it’s going to be painful. We have to stick together and support each other.
different-church-lady
@lamh36:
…BECAUSE WE WON’T ABANDON “IDENTITY POLITICS” AND ADDRESS THEIR ECONOMIC ANXIETY!!1!Kay
I have to say too that I am 100% confident that Donald Trump assaulted those women and that there are more, so I get a weird pleasure out of him watching this happen and knowing it’s just a matter of time – tick tock, Donald. Someone’s got the goods.
Jay S
@Cheryl Rofer:
Adam’s description sounded more like a confession than a brag, perhaps as a cautionary tail or a woe is me thing. Blurting it out to someone he never expects to see again seems like somewhat normal human behavior.
Adam L Silverman
@?BillinGlendaleCA: I don’t drink. At most I have 1/2 a dozen drinks a year.
Baud
@lamh36: While I want them to get in the race, I kind of don’t want them telegraphing how they are in the race.
ruemara
@Frank McCormick: To quote MASH, “Shut up, Frank”.
different-church-lady
@Adam L Silverman: Slacker.
TenguPhule
@Baud:
Only as long as you’re not ugly.
So that rules out you and John for sure. //
Aleta
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: I remember when you spoke before, and ever since I’ve despised those vicious abuser criminals who hurt you. Thanks for your courage and the reminder.
Jay S
@Corner Stone:
Drawings? kids these days! The only version of charades I remembered was in acting out the syllables.
Adam L Silverman
@Jay S: Telling it to someone who was going to write an after action review of the course block two hours later was stupid.
Kay
We, well “I” mostly, complain about media all the time but the WaPo has come up with some good investigations in the age of Trump and they should be congratulated for that. Good work!
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
Nope. No silver lining here.
We hit a pocket of particularly noxious gas and are now frantically trying to claw our way back to the surface before we all suffocate.
SiubhanDuinne
@different-church-lady:
And it’s only Thursday.
LanceThruster
My initial reaction is to always wonder what is meant to have attention diverted from. So much shenanigans to choose from.
SgrAstar
@? Martin: I think Uma Thurman’s “anger” is entirely self serving. She made at least 7 movies with Weinstein, and didn’t know what was going on? I just can’t believe that, at all. Other Weinstein associates, Tarantino, for example, have admitted to being somewhat aware that HW was not behaving well. Women have taken huge risks and shown enormous courage by stepping into the spotlight and describing their abuse by HW. Huge kudos to them. Uma Thurman, not so much.
MomSense
@Baud:
I hope so!
Adam L Silverman
Oh look, another shonda for the goyim! Why are all these modern Orthodox Jewish cretins somehow tied back to Breitbart and Bannon?
TenguPhule
@WereBear:
And we have four on record so far.
Yarrow
@Cheryl Rofer: Thank you for this, Cheryl.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
Stupidity generates its own gravity field?
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Aleta: Thank you. I really would like a chance to confront them someday. I managed to track down the email address of the ringleader a few years ago and sent her a message asking why she did it. Unsurprisingly, I never heard back. For better or for worse, she’s (or at least was at that time) a special education teacher in the San Francisco area.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
Is that six full size drinks or twelve drinks where you only drink half and leave the rest?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: OT: NBC really needs to update the downtown LA background, they’re missing the Wilshire Grand building.
smintheus
@Ladyraxterinok: At one of my first jobs, as an abused adjunct at the Univ. of Vermont, I witnessed a senior religion prof. come tumbling out of his office one night, half dressed, buckling up his pants and shirt unbuttoned, running after an undergraduate woman who’d dashed out of his office. I told colleagues in my own department and asked whom to make a report to. Don’t, they strongly advised me; everybody knows he has sex with his students, but the administration always protects him when it’s reported, so if they go after anyone it’ll be you.
A while later I witnessed him desperately chatting up a new grad student from Sweden, following her all over the building. I had to physically interpose myself and stare him off.
Aleta
@Kay: I’d die happier if Clarence Thomas were brought into the light of truth. Provided the women are protected, supported and want to speak. A very big if. But I believe I read that one or two other women were waiting in a hotel room, having agreed to testify after Anita Hill, but then not called.
TenguPhule
@LanceThruster:
Well we can pick from the lawsuit filed against the Voting Commission by its own members, the pantsing of Trump in China, the rush to pack the federal appeals courts by the GOP senate or Devos basically decomposing the Dept of Ed.
schrodingers_cat
@Adam L Silverman: How can you be modern and orthodox at the same time? That’s confusing.
SiubhanDuinne
@different-church-lady:
You make a good point. I wasn’t thinking.
TenguPhule
@smintheus: Sounds like you could have made good money on a lawsuit. If you’d had the money for a lawsuit.
rk
A few days ago I talked with my small group of close women friends (on whatsapp) about our experiences with harassment. Out of a group of 8 who have known each other for over 30 years, all have experienced harassment ranging from sexual assault to groping to lewd comments. 5 of us experienced it as small children. Without going into details, I was abused as a child. To this day my family does not know. I did not realize that so many of my girlfriends were abused as children. We have known each other for 30 years. None of us talked about it during our college years. This conversation happened now only because of what’s going on with Weinstein and others. One of the reasons we kept quiet was because the men were relatives and family friends. Only two of my friends told their mothers who told them to “avoid” the men. It is much more than just random men on trains groping and passing lewd comments. It’s relatives, men who you trust with children, men with authority as well as random strangers.
Mnemosyne
@WereBear:
Exactly. That’s why I’m feeling a little antsy about the specific one I read — I haven’t seen any other stories about that person come up. With stuff like Moore and Weinstein and Louis CK, there are multiple accusers all telling the same story about the same or very similar behavior. That gives those stories a LOT more credibility in my mind.
Jay S
@Adam L Silverman: re stupid. Like I said, sounds perfectly human to me, to assume an aside outside class would be off the record may be stupid, but natural.
lamh36
Wow… Roy Moore on twitter.. blaming the Obama-Clinton MEDIA!!!!
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: The former.
Yarrow
@Suzanne:
Ralph Lauren of Arabia. LOL. Excellent.
I detest Jared but Ivanka gets my deepest disregard. Maybe because she’s daddy’s favorite. She’s the most complicit in protecting him. I hope the Baku, Azerbaijan fake hotel money-laundering comes back to toss her in prison.
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
NO SELFIES!!!!
Adam L Silverman
Oy gevalt!
TenguPhule
@lamh36: Irony, the dead horse that must be beaten.
Patricia Kayden
@Mnemosyne: I don’t think they can do that with Judge Moore feeling up a 14 year old child.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
I never thought I’d see the day that Republicans officially became the party of child molesters.
TenguPhule
@Patricia Kayden:
Too late. See Adam’s post at @254.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: They seem to repel each other:
Patricia Kayden
@Timurid: Great point. That’s why Trump won’t be impeached unless Congress flips.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman: Electromagnetic fields with reverse polarities?
La Caterina (Mrs. Johannes)
@WereBear: Nice to see you! Where ya been lately?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@lamh36: “When the facts are on your side, argue the facts; when the law is on your side argue the law; if neither is on your side blame the Obama/Clinton MEDIA”.
Adam L Silverman
@?BillinGlendaleCA: If anyone from NBC ever reaches out to me, I’ll be sure to pass this along.
Bard the Grim
@Baud: Damn, Baud, you’re good!
Patricia Kayden
@TenguPhule: Yeah just read that. Unbelievable.
Mnemosyne
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym:
The one gender-based thing I would say is that it’s fairly unusual for a woman to act alone against a similarly-aged man, in part because there is usually a difference in physical size and strength. But, sadly, I find it all too plausible that a group of high school girls could egg each other on into behavior as a group that none of them would normally dare to do as individuals. I’m so sorry that this happened to you, too.
lamh36
@Adam L Silverman: WOW!!! “I know that 14-year olds don’t make good decisions…”
MUTHA..ROY MOORE WAS 32!!!! And this mofo is blaming the 14 YEAR OLD!!! Come DAFUQ on ALABAMA…SMH
Adam L Silverman
@schrodingers_cat: Basically it is an attempt to reconcile with following a traditional form of religious Judaism while reconciled to modernity. Part of the problem is that the labels for the various Jewish denominations make little sense. Judaism isn’t a religion of doxa/belief, it is a religion of praxis/practice. Judaism is orthopraxic. I generally use ultra devout and devout for what we generally would call utlra-orthodox and orthodox Jews.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: I knew we could rely on you Adam, even with the whole sinus thing.
Starfish
@Mnemosyne: It was junior high. That is the one point where the girls have a growth spurt before the boys do, and the girls are actually bigger than the boys at that point.
TenguPhule
@lamh36: The 14 year old he was entrusted to supervise by her mother in a courthouse.
So extra bonus points for betrayal of trust and shitting on his profession’s moral principles.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: If you live long enough…
Suzanne
@rk: If I sat down and thought about it, I could write down at least fifty separate incidents of sexual harassment and assault that I have experienced. And that would not include catcalls, having dudes flash their dicks at me as I walked by, or incidents of common sexism.
SiubhanDuinne
@Adam L Silverman:
Fucked-up sinuses
Mean fucked-up minuses.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: It is important to remember that Anthony Weiner is serving jail time because he texted someone a selfie of him while in his underwear with his son in the picture. This was considered to be prosecutable child endangerment.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Isn’t Modern Orthodox the band that did the Klezmer cover of “I Melt with You?”
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman: I said in the first thread about the Moore article that because all the women say that when they asked him to stop and to take them home he did, that that would be used to downplay the allegations. “It wasn’t forcible rape.” “It was romantic.” “He was dating them.” I see I wasn’t wrong.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: Repellent personalities.
KithKanan
@Adam L Silverman: Ugh. Sorry to hear that. I just couldn’t resist making a “gastritis broke my calculator” joke.
Hope you’re feeling better soon!
BBA
It ought to be legal for a woman to kill a man.
Yarrow
@TenguPhule:
Why not? They’ve been the party of child molesters for decades.
lamh36
ha…David Gergen…just said Bannon is the only one who can stop Moore…by telling Moore he should step aside…huh…
Sorry David!!!
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
I guarantee Republicans are going to plead statute of limitations as a defense before this is over.
MomSense
@Adam L Silverman:
It’s not forcible rape and 14 year olds don’t make good decisions? Oh my god. I’d like to make a really bad decision with some pruning shears.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: Amazing that a lot of these folks are lawyers who have seemed to forgotten what statutory rape is. This wasn’t a pair of 14 year olds having their first, fumbling sexual encounter. This was a 32 year old assistant DA molesting a 14 year old girl.
Aleta
@Adam L Silverman: My primary doc once told me that, of the students she went through med school with, the ones who specialized in psychiatry were the most troubled individuals.
schrodingers_cat
@Adam L Silverman:
Sounds like Hinduism, in that respect.
TenguPhule
@BBA:
Only in self-defense. And even then, a lot of DAs still go after them anyway.
And win.
smintheus
@TenguPhule: The UVM administration had already given me ample grounds to sue them, if I’d been able to hire a lawyer and if I was willing to torpedo my academic career. There’s all kinds of harassing and illegal behavior I and others have had to endure because demanding your rights or even making accusations of established people is considered bad form for junior faculty. I have had enough material over the years for at least half a dozen lawsuits. In fact, one of the people who warned me not to report the sexual predator later begged me not to sue them over a scandalous job search in which they engaged in illegal behavior.
Hell, I was even warned by my thesis examiners when I finished my doctorate that I should not formally accuse a Danish “scholar” of plagiarizing my research in his own doctoral dissertation, blatant though it was, because people would be put off against me before I’d even started my career. He finished his degree a year before I did, therefore he was getting established, therefore I should just let his academic thievery go without comment.
SiubhanDuinne
@smintheus:
I hesitated, but he’s been dead for 13 years. Robert Merrill.
The episode in question took place in 1979-80, and he was still, at that time, an international star in the world of opera and classical music generally. Today’s whippersnappers have probably never heard of him.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes. On an electric klezmer.
TenguPhule
@Yarrow: Yes, but never officially. They always worn a fig leaf of deniability before.
MomSense
@Yarrow:
The Hastert Rule.
Mark Foley.
BBA
@TenguPhule: Hence the “ought.”
lamh36
Adam L Silverman
@KithKanan: If it is what I think it is, then a course of antibiotics and ten days from now I’ll be right as rain.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
After tricking her mother into letting him supervise her, no less.
Adam L Silverman
@BBA: Want to put any qualifications on that or is it just in general and for reasons?
Asking for a friend.
TenguPhule
@lamh36: An hour alone with him in a dark alley with a claw hammer. Is that asking for too much?
feebog
Four women on the record, but a total of 30 interviewed. Why didn’t more women come forward on the record. I’ll tell you why, they did not think they would be believed. I investigated sexual harassment claims and taught sexual harassment classes for a number of years at a large federal agency. Since 2004 I have been an arbitrator and hearing officer. I have heard a number of cases where women did not initially come forward. In one instance, a Commission overturned my recommended decision because the woman did not come forward with her allegations at the time, but inadvertently reported his behavior after her harasser was discharged for harassing another woman. Luckily the agency went to court and the Commissions decision was reversed, the harasser was discharged. Otherwise this woman would have been forced to work with the harasser after her accusations had been discarded by the Commission. Women don’t think they will be believed, happens more often than not.
Yarrow
@TenguPhule: I don’t see this as any more “official” than any other time. It’s not like they’re putting it in the Republican party crest or making it their mission statement. It’s just yet another example of protecting their own and blaming the victims. They’re professionals at it.
@MomSense: Yep.
BroD
Looks like we’re going to have a nation-wide discussion about “the rules.” It won’t be easy because just about all of us have baggage of one sort or another. I mean, sex is the wild-card and always has been. One of humanity’s endless and impossible enterprises has been the formulation and enforcement of rules, policies, laws and commandments governing sexual relations. We’ve been at this for thousands of years. We’ve never been able to get the lightning in the bottle for long–and I don’t expect we ever will.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodingers_cat: They’re both primary religions. Bound in time and space. Not universal. With limited options for conversion.
Mnemosyne
@Aleta:
It’s not uncommon for people to go into psychology or psychiatry to work through their own issues. If they get trained right, their required psychotherapy sessions help them work through their issues so they don’t inflict those issues on their patients. If they don’t get trained right …
lamh36
https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/928738082576326656
WaterGirl
@Adam L Silverman:
Oh my god, someone actually said that out loud. I guess if she had just waited a few more years to be assaulted, she could have made better decisions. A 14-year old cannot give consent.
Peale
I’m not certain at what point this becomes a moral panic that is simply out of control. Whatever happens, I just hope that every accusation isn’t an excuse for the press to pile on Hillary Clinton and analyze her response to the latest accusation. Oh, like that will happen.
Not certain as a gay man how willing I am to make outing a “thing” again. Its like there was a consensus about outing that was finally reached in the 1990s that has held up well. Exposing sexual assault is a different matter, though. What I don’t want is a bunch of outings that just serve for straight people to work themselves up into a self righteous lather. Kind of like all kinds of sexual improprieties by priests were ignored so that the public could fantasize about altar boys.
It will remind me, though, of Jim McGreevey, who somehow managed to convince a lot of people that he should have some kind of undeserved gay icon status as the first gay governor. I don’t really feel a lot of sympathy for someone like Kevin Spacey who spent the last 30 years being evasive about his sexuality “coming out” now and expecting that somehow the community is supposed to rally around him when he’s being accused of sexual assault.
Mnemosyne
@BroD:
I dunno, Make sure the other person is over 18, consents, and is capable of consenting doesn’t seem like a terribly onerous rule to me, and yet we seem to have quite a few men who can’t manage something that basic.
WaterGirl
@lamh36: Had not seen your comment when I wrote mine. You said it better than I did!
smintheus
@SiubhanDuinne: As a *singer*, I liked Merrill. He recorded what was my first and still my favorite opera recording, Bohème with Björling, de los Angeles, and Beecham.
Sorry he was such a creep.
TS
What the hell is wrong with Chris Hayes – first Donna Brazile & now Bernie Sanders – might as well put the GOP on each evening
CLICK
rk
@Suzanne:
You are right. The most terrifying incident that happened to me was when I was in my twenties when two teenage boys in a car drove their car towards me at full speed and swerved at the last minute, all the while laughing and catcalling. I thought I was going to die of a heart attack! I don’t know if that’s sexual harassment or even if there’s a name for this kind of behavior.
WaterGirl
@Yarrow: I hope some enterprising reporter researches all the similar cases that came before Moore in court. I would love to see everything he has ever said about that sort of situation be thrown right back at him publicly.
BBA
@Adam L Silverman: I make dumb flippant remarks from time to time, that’s my prerogative.
lamh36
Chris Hayes has his WEEKLY Bernie Sanders interview segment…ugh…is Rachel on yet
chopper
@Adam L Silverman:
the gop’s incessant need to stand by each other, combined with their inability to think before they fucking talk, is really turning this into a gold mine.
different-church-lady
@rk: Reckless endangerment?
MoxieM
@SiubhanDuinne: crikey. the entitlement, it burns. I have a music journalist friend who has heinous stories of getting rape threats during interviews with bands. nudge wink, it’s all fun, doncha know?
Yarrow
@WaterGirl:
The former is kind of why the latter exists. This idiot is actually offering evidence for why there’s a minimum age for consent.
MoxieM
@TS: I think the Brylcreem it has seeped in too far. But seriously, he seems to lack some discernment, as in: who is a Democrat? What is a motive?
WaterGirl
@MomSense:
I love this comment.
OT, I was so happy for you that Maine voted for medicare and now I am enraged to see that he isn’t going to implement the will of the voters. People who don’t believe in the rule of law ought not to be allowed to hold office. Hoping there is a way you can run him out of town on a rail.
edit to add: Bastard!
Gravenstone
@lamh36: Hannity needs to have a close encounter with a wood chipper, and soon!
Amaranthine RBG
I believe the women.
Except for Donna Brazil. She lie
Gravenstone
@lamh36: Kudos to Wilson to admitting he still wishes to belong to the party in question. I suppose that … promising?
Mnemosyne
@Starfish:
Yes, just to be clear, I was not doubting his story at all. Just the opposite — I was saying that I found it completely believable that girls that age would act as a group in that way.
mike in dc
What baffles me is this: why haven’t the major players in the film and television industry huddled together in an emergency meeting–SAG, DGA, Producers Guild, the Big Six studios, WGA, AFTRA, BAFTA, MPAA, et al–and hashed out a new zero-tolerance policy with regard to harassment and abuse? It feels like they’re only reacting and dragging their backsides on this stuff. Nobody can or should be insulated from consequences, guys. Set a standard and a new example for other industries and fields.
smintheus
@feebog: It’s not just women who don’t think they’ll believed. It’s about a power imbalance. I’ve been harassed and bullied by powerful women during academic job searches, but never once considered making a formal complaint because I was pretty sure no good would come of it.
I once had a chairwoman show up at my hotel room door half an hour before she was due to pick me up in the lobby. I had just stepped out of the shower, wearing a towel, and she announced that she would just wait while I dressed…in my room! I had to grab some clothes and retreat to the bathroom. But was going to believe me, much less do anything to punish her?
Mart
@Adam L Silverman: I was just thinking about Weiner in jail. Dems always seem to take a harder hit for the same crime. Also R’s only remember libs and Hollywood elites are all pervs. Conservatives do not do this icky stuff. Couple years back my Illinois brother-in-law was getting so worked up over Weiner he was turning red, sputtering about Weiner Clinton and perverted libs. I asked him if he was OK with Illinois’ own “R” congresscritter Denny Hastert buggering boys on his H.S. wrestling team. Nasty glare, and out the room.
lamh36
CNN showing clips of Louis C.K. film that had it’s premeire cancelled called “I Love You Daddy”…
The trailer clips for the movie, in light of the accusations against Roy Moore and Weinstein and just everything……ugh…I admit…I cringed.
I’m wondering if I would have felt different before all these assault/harrassment allegations lately…
To be honest, I’d probably still cringe…
https://youtu.be/W-HM6TGHPr4
Adria McDowell
@lamh36: Did he throw people of color under the bus like he usually does?
eemom
Is it just me, or are there a bunch of men on this thread moving into the bullshit zones of (1) “how’s a guy to know what the RULES are anymore” and/or (2) “we can’t let this distract us from more important priorities”? Just curious.
Fair Economist
@Adam L Silverman:
So she was his secretary first and 20 years younger. Hmm. I think she’s really upset that when he told her he had never done this with another girl he was lying. Bigly.
MomSense
@WaterGirl:
It’s not even the first time he has refused to honor the results of a referendum question. Fortunately I think our AG is going to challenge him.
smintheus
@lamh36: It’s not just the number of accusations. What really makes these accusations more credible is the fact that the accusers told friends about them at the time, though the friends didn’t know Moore and the accusers got no apparent benefit from telling the accusations to the friends.
divF
@eemom: That may well be the case, but I think that I have many of them pied already, so it is hard for me to tell.
dogwood
@Adria McDowell:
I think Bernie just throws all Democrats under the bus now.
WaterGirl
@MomSense: I hope that happens!
Mary G
@MomSense: Even Susan Collins would be better than that bowling jacket. When is his term up? Can you get him voted out then?
marv
@Cheryl Rofer:
What you just said, I’ve been trying to figure out how to say: Women are coming out, Jack! It’s a really big story
MomSense
@WaterGirl:
Me too. @Mary G:
Collins decided not to run but our AG, Janet Mills is running. The election will be next November so hopefully we will have a decent Governor in 2019.
smintheus
@eemom: It’s just you.
Mart
@Fair Economist: 14 years younger – Roy was 38, Kayla 24. She was divorced with a daughter when they were wed. Kind of reminds me of my trainer when I got out of school. He was 50, his wife was 35, and like Kayla, a former beauty pageant person.
SiubhanDuinne
@smintheus:
I agree, he was a wonderful artist. And for that matter, an amusing and gratifying interview subject. I don’t regret the experience all in all, and TBH I’ve had creepier. Just not as famous.
ThresherK
@Yarrow: Any Dem worth their salt will ask their R opponent how much they agree with Moore.
Granulate this down to the age of consent in AL (16), and I enjoy the prospect of a Republcan being made to tell voters why a 30-ish Moore macking on a 17-y.o. is okay, but on a 14-y.o. is squicky.
eemom
@smintheus:
Really. See, e.g., 41, 303, 308.
Frankensteinbeck
@Cheryl Rofer:
Humans abuse power to get what they want, women as well as men. That includes sex and the pleasure of cruel dominance. Apparently 80%(!!!) of institutional style statutory rape, ‘teacher/student’ sort of thing, is older woman/underage boy. HOWEVER. In our society, overwhelmingly men have the power, and the systems in place to deny rape overwhelmingly benefit them. Those systems are pretty damn strong lately. It makes sense that this will be a major issue in the rapidly heating up conflict of women not being willing to put up with grossly misogynistic systems anymore.
And to tie this into the OP and recent posts, I hope that a big part of this will be women becoming more politically motivated, and staying motivated.
the Conster
Every man I meet now that I don’t know I assume is a creepy wannabe rapey groper. Even if I know them, I assume if they seem normal, they either probably are hiding something or would do the same thing all these other creeps are doing if they had the opportunity. So, well played guys. How’s the system of white male supremacy working for you? Like Michelle Obama said, you need to talk to each other, cause it’s messy.
Shana
@MomSense: Having raised two relatively-easy-to-raise girls, I say Bless You. Truly wonderful and constant effort. Are they single?
Peale
@WaterGirl: LOL. Sorry. I’m just laughing. Honestly, in normal circumstances, a politician talking about lowering the age of consent laws an dropping statuatory rape would be DOA, but its fine, fine, to use it as an excuse for his behavior. Yep. I’m all for hurling pervert accusations at him.
Honestly, if I were running for office as a gay man and said that if elected I am going to lower the age of consent to a more reasonable 16 (let alone 14), I would immediately be accused of taking that position because I wanted some freshman high school sex. There would be ads taken out all accross the country about how I was coming for sons. But GOP pol gets to be “live and let live” about teen girls?
Kay
Well, despite whatever bullshit they serve up to excuse this I can tell you that it would be a BFD if a county prosecutor molested a 14 year old girl in this county and we’re not know for our wildly progressive, enlightened views and this area went 70% for Trump.
Because it’s wrong and everyone knows it’s wrong and the person would not only be fired and shunned completely he would be prosecuted.
They’ll attempt to normalize this and lower the standards enough to allow this creep to limbo under them but a regular schmuck would NOT get off so easy.
It’s appalling. This creep was slinking around the courthouse looking for vulnerable children. They are not just lowering standards, they are setting special lower standards for people who are or will be very powerful.
smintheus
@eemom: I’m still not seeing what you say you’re seeing. I see three people saying basically “Let’s not get all witch-hunty while we’re at it.”
eemom
@smintheus:
And you, come to think of it. What does your gripe about alleged plagiarism have to do with sexual harassment?
the Conster
@Kay:
I think you mean drip drip
smintheus
@Kay: Republicans since I’ve been old enough to read newspapers:
smintheus
@eemom: I think I was clear. But why does it matter to you?
the Conster
@Corner Stone:
I think they’ll pressure him to drop out. Their donors want their tax cuts, and that can’t happen with every reporter within 20 miles trying to hang pedophile Roy Moore on their necks like a millstone.
Suzanne
I am enjoying the front page of Breitbart, which defends Moore while condemning Louis C.K. I enjoy watching the right wing shit all over any moral high ground they once (thought they) had.
Raoul
@Adam L Silverman:
Some of them are going to lose next fall. One can dearly hope.
Eric S.
@zhena gogolia: Welcome to the windy city.
JR
Maybe Roy Moore will honor mos maiorum and you know.. go the way of Marc Antony.
different-church-lady
@Suzanne: I’ve seen too much this past year to ever again believe we’re winning a game of Calvinball.
(Addition:) Remember when Trump brought on Bannon and everyone snickered? Turns out Breitbart was a much much much larger influence on voters than we ever imagined — that Harvard study on media behavior during the election gave it the largest red circle on the diagram.
Adam L Silverman
@Raoul: Perhaps.
Corner Stone
@the Conster: Moore ain’t never dropping out. If his black female rape victim(s) come forward and present their mixed race love child, he will still stay in the race. It’s going to take black girls and minor white boys to ice Moore out of this race.
Keith Earle
@SiubhanDuinne: I’ve heard of him. I’ve seen him perform. I never thought he was all that. I’m saddened that he resorted to such pathetic overtures.
GregB
The descent into madness is quickening.
dogwood
Moore isn’t gonna drop out, but if McConnell is smart he’ll do some Committee reassignments to keep him off any high profile committees where Strange was serving. The Judge creates a viral video problem for the Goopers.
the Conster
@Corner Stone:
I’m not sure about that. Republicans are spooked. Their twitter feeds are ratio nightmares. Nothing gets everyone’s attention quite like this. No one is going to drop this, it’s only going to get worse for Moore and every Republican the media can find to stick a mic in front of.
ep
What really dismays me about all of this is when people say “WHY did she/he not speak up back then?” I’m speaking up now because I now have an established career, I’ve been married for 25 years, and I am looking forward to grandchildren. None of these things were a given back when it happened. There was too much risk in speaking up. So now I have spoken up, but only on Facebook, because nobody involved was or is famous. This shit is just very very pervasive.
WaterGirl
@Peale: It’s the same thing, all day, every day. The rules don’t apply to them.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amaranthine RBG: The sooner your Hillary Derangement Syndrome ass is fed into a woodchipper, the better.
Это курам на смех
Why don’t more women come forward? Because most women know that their lives will be ruined by the army of scumbags who will endlessly harass them, by the smearing they will get from the right-wing media, by the ick factor shunning they will receive from bosses and co-workers and friends who will find it easier to avoid them than support them.
It’s good to see this cause gaining ground but I don’t think it will happen more than incrementally.
Suzanne
@Corner Stone: I agree with you. The GOP will excuse literally ANYTHING as long as they get their tax cuts, and outlaw abortion as the cherry on top.
Ken
@lamh36: Maybe it’s time to question that “my”, Rick.
Aleta
The bright side is that Moore is ruining the godly shine on some of these deadbeats as he goes down. Their remarks will stay with their names after they go.
WaterGirl
@Aleta:
Ugh. I hope that’s on video.
Ken
@Aleta:
Better a pedophile than a Democrat? (Probably shouldn’t use those exact words in an ad.)
Steeplejack (phone)
@lamh36:
Unfortunate choice of GIFs. Meryl Streep can sit down and grab a big steaming cup of STFU. Though she has been full-throated in her condemnation of Harvey Weinstein since the allegations became public, she also said that she was shocked—shocked!—to learn of them and that if they were widely known for so long some reporters surely would have written about them.
As ? Martin said above, everybody in the industry knew about Weinstein. There is an episode of Law and Order: Criminal Intent from 2008 (“Contract”) that might as well be called “The Harvey Weinstein Story,” including the casting of Jeff Garlin as a “separated at birth” lookalike for Weinstein.
It’s great that Streep spoke out against Weinstein and sexual harassment, but for her to plead complete ignorance not only for herself but for the industry media beggars belief.
Matt McIrvin
It seems like a lot of these accusations weren’t really secrets at all. They’re just situations where everyone figured there would be no consequences, and going after the guy was too dangerous. Only now suddenly we’ve decided there can be consequences. Let it roll.
Ruckus
@Aleta:
He’s a fucking moron if he thinks that isn’t exactly what he’s doing. He’s voting for the guy he knows molested an underage girl, and that makes it acceptable to him. He could just not vote for the office. But no, he’s going all in. Constituents be damned, party always, full speed ahead.
J R in WV
@SgrAstar:
Sorry, but did you see Thurman speaking? I know she’s a professional actress, but I’ve seen a lot of acting. She seemed to me to be speaking from the heart.
Amir Khalid
@Adam L Silverman:
With himself as Lee Kuan Yew? How would that work in the context of the House of Saud? Also, Singapore is to Malaysia roughly as Monaco is to France. What larger country is there that would have a similar relationship to Saudi Arabia?
Adam L Silverman
@Amir Khalid: I’m not saying it’s a perfect analogy, just the one that may be closest. I honestly don’t think it would work. I think we’ll find out in the next couple of weeks whether Muhammad bin Salman is successful or if he’s found dead.
J R in WV
@TenguPhule:
And lots of us never thought we would see the Republicans become the party owned by Russia!!! But here it is, in living color!
Are they the Russian party of child abuse? Signs point to YES!
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
They are the people you always thought they were. But of course you lowballed the estimate. We all did.
jl
@J R in WV: ” the party of child molesters. ”
That seems harsh and unfair, until I learned more about the allegations. So, if what these women are saying is true, then apparently one of Moore’s hobbies was to cruise the courthouse hallways for adolescents and young women in custody hearings, trying to pick them up, or cajole contact info out of them so he could make his move later. Ulra-sketchy behavior.
If Moore did invite an underage girl into his house with the intent of making, and did make, any kind of sexual contact, then by Alabama law he committed a felony.
A lot of questions/chatter about the narrow legal questions under Alabama law. Consent/statute of limitations etc. Here’s wapo on that.
https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/928804824824545280
And AL, and some DC GOP making excuses for this guy. If half of the allegations are true, he is a sketchy sketchy dude who needs to get out of public service, But he still has a very good chance of being next AL Senator.
J R in WV
@Ruckus:
You’re right, worse than I ever believed today. Vile and despicable!!
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Is that the guy defending Moore on the basis that age of consent 2000 years ago in the Middle East was something like 12 years old?
Edit: Moore will make a great GOP Senator. He’ll defend some legislation on horrible labor law by saying that, gosh, only 250 years ago you could beat the crap out your indentured servant. And there were places in Europe where breaking on the wheel was not cruel and unusual punishment when the Constitution was written. Just the kind of guy I want making the laws.
Emma
@Amaranthine RBG: Christ Jesus on a Harley. Do you ever think things through before acting like an imbecile?
Tenar Arha
@Cheryl Rofer: Did you see this clip. Moore’s behavior definitely effected his legal work. This article clip is going around and it is infuriating.
Kayla Rudbek
@TenguPhule: personally I would pick my sharpest knitting needles (the ones that shipped with two warnings about their sharp points)
Adam L Silverman
@jl: yep
Omnes Omnibus
@Emma: The guy is a troll. Assume bad intentions.
seaboogie
Nothing to add to this except for my appreciation for your usual cogent analysis in yet another area. You’re “a good man – and thorough…”*
*Like Maude Lebowski’s doctor
seaboogie
@jl:
This is what child molesters do – prey upon vulnerable children – and ones whose home situation is in upheaval and are vulnerable without unified vigilant parental protection are “easy pickings”.
But I’d also like to point out a bit of language that you used that is really, really common: “if what these women are saying is true”. Give each of those words equal weight as you review it, and consider also (per one twitter commenter today) that the man that Kevin Spacey molested at a party when he was 14 was believed outright – never challenged, and it is unraveling Spacey’s career right now.
I’m not putting this on you, but rather pointing out that this is emblematic of how we tend to question the credibility of women victims, but take male victims at their word, and tend to defend male perpetrators. It’s a cultural observation.
Steeplejack (phone)
Huh. Louis C.K. canceled his appearance on Colbert’s show tonight.
seaboogie
@Steeplejack (phone): Mmmm…hmmm – I can’t watch him anymore. Nor Susan Sarandon – but for different reasons.
Aleta
jl
@seaboogie: In response to your comment on the ’emblematic’ part of my comment. I think there are two sides to that issue. The one side is that, so far, these are allegations, and story is in early stages.
On the other side, as I did point out in an earlier comment, it is wrong to implicitly question, and keep questioning allegations on some vague and undefined standard of trustworthiness. So, if their stories stand up to scrutiny, nothing to indicate they are being dishonest, and if there are several independent and consistent charges, then the allegations have to be given a lot of credit and weight.
One of the problems of these sorts of cases is that when there is no formal process for evaluating the charges (court of law, or professional ethics review), how to judge what happened what should be the consequences? Remedy to that is to make sure society stands behind and protects the rights of victims who come forward with the truth in a timely way, so that if any formal process can be applied, that it is applied. One of the disturbing things about Moore’s case is that, from comments I have seen from Alabama GOP, that kind of protection does not exist there. It is still an open question whether it exists anywhere in the US right now, but we have some good evidence that it does not exist in the Alabama Republican Party. So, I am not surprised that there are others who are still afraid to speak out.
Right now we have four independent accusations, that so far are holding up. No evidence anyone put them up to it or they have any ulterior motive. And WaPo is standing behind its statement that it has 30 sources. So Moore’s accusers have a case that should not be attacked with undefined BS standards of ‘trust’. Moore has no constitutional right to anyone’s support for election to AL Senate, and we all have the right to make up our own minds. That is, sadly, probably all that can be done by now (Edit: so I am sending Jones some money).
jl
@seaboogie And just to make one thing clear, I would make the exactly same proviso, in the early stages of story, and would include ‘if the allegations are true’ if made by a boy or man. Needs to be exact equality of treatment in these situations..
seaboogie
@jl: Oh FFS, please re-read my post and your reply. I retract my “not putting this on you” statement.
jl
@seaboogie:OK, I guess I have to accept whatever you are putting on me.
Senator Menendez was accused of similar crimes and then it was found that the accusers were paid to plant false stories. So, I suppose my even mentioning that case of a false accusation now means I am a bad person.
I personally believe that the accusers in Moore’s case are telling the truth, and think Moore did what he is accused of, and he got away with at least one felony under Alabama law. And I agree with your general point about societal biases.
Corner Stone
@jl: Skipped.
TenguPhule
@Mart:
I presume that was a yes then.
TenguPhule
@eemom: dial it back please.
Ruckus
@Emma:
I think you answered your own question, but the answer is no, never.
Vhh
@Corner Stone: We already did when Trump blamed Hillary for Bill’s behavior.
WereBear
@La Caterina (Mrs. Johannes): flareup of an illness, but getting a better grip on it all the time
J R in WV
@WereBear:
Glad you’re doing well, or at least better.
Hang in there!
debbie
@MomSense:
Just seeing this now, but you’re absolutely right.
Aleta
@MomSense:
I deeply believe this. I also look at it as a gift to each person in the boys’ future circle –children, spouses, partners, roommates, colleagues.