Breaking: #MichaelFlynn concerned about potential legal exposure of his son, also under scrutiny by #SpecialCounsel https://t.co/177NmMy602
— Jim Sciutto (@jimsciutto) November 9, 2017
This is a public cry for help from Michael Flynn to the White House. https://t.co/xXRkqmaRM0
— Brandt (@UrbanAchievr) November 9, 2017
Latest news I can find about this, Jeff Flake has gotten very brave now that he’s no longer worried about being re-elected:
Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) slammed President Trump’s former national security adviser Michael Flynn in an interview aired Thursday, calling him a “conspiracy theorist” unfit to serve in such an office.
Flake told former U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara on the podcast “Stay Tuned with Preet” that he was generally pleased with Trump’s national security team, singling out Defense Secretary James Mattis and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson for praise.
But Flake promptly denounced Flynn’s presence on the National Security Council, panning him as a “conspiracy theorist” and rejecting the notion that he would have voted for him had Flynn needed Senate confirmation.
“Michael Flynn didn’t come up for a Senate vote,” Flake told Bharara, who was fired from his U.S. attorney position by Trump earlier this year. “I said from the beginning, if that were, I wouldn’t have voted for it, that I thought a conspiracy theorist like that doesn’t belong as head of national security.”…
Flynn was forced to resign from the White House in February, just 24 days into his tenure, after it was revealed that he lied to Vice President Pence about his conversations with then-Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak in the month before Trump took office…
Seems like Mike Sr. just wasn’t the kind who made friends easily… at least not in this country…
*putting elbows on table and leaning across to robert mueller* look, it's not his fault, i raised him to be a meathead jackoff https://t.co/FyEKIemZkg
— carter page attorney (@Mobute) November 9, 2017
3/ Flynn’s reaction to his son’s potential liability is what I’m used to seeing from the target of a criminal investigation. Getting indicted by a federal prosecutor is a very serious problem. They usually win and the result is usually time in federal prison.
— Renato Mariotti (@renato_mariotti) November 9, 2017
4/ But today’s news is a turn of events because, as I discussed in the prior thread, Flynn’s son has been publicly trashing Mueller. He falsely alleged Mueller was tied to Hamas, among other things.
— Renato Mariotti (@renato_mariotti) November 9, 2017
8/ Now that we know Flynn is worried about his son, that means this could play out like other criminal cases. That means Flynn could cooperate with Mueller’s investigation in exchange for leniency for his son.
— Renato Mariotti (@renato_mariotti) November 9, 2017
A message from the horse’s… mouth:
#NeverForget those who played a major role getting @realDonaldTrump elected 45th @POTUS #MAGA @GenFlynn #AmericaFirst pic.twitter.com/NiHmFla82j
— ????MFLYNNJR???? (@mflynnJR) November 8, 2017
Pardon me? https://t.co/kPWaMMfcW3
— Benjamin Wittes (@benjaminwittes) November 9, 2017
Adam L Silverman
This is a very high stakes game of chicken. I know Mueller isn’t going to flinch. He and his team are going to keep doing what they’re doing. And they have access to everything because the Joint Counterintelligence Task Force that Comey set up has been rolled into the Special Prosecutor’s investigation. The question is what will Flynn do.
Ridnik Chrome
Once upon a time there were guys like Lowell Weicker in the Republican Party.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Ridnik Chrome: Once upon a time men such as Teddy Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, and Ulysses S. Grant, and Ike were in the GOP. It’s not the same party and I doubt it ever will be again. It deserves to die for being an unAmerican, authoritarian white supremacist party.
ByRookorbyCrook
Who knows if Trump will pardon anyone? If he pardons anyone, it will be tweeted out before anyone in his cabinet knows or the lawyers can draw up a half-assed “formal” pardon like they did for Arpaio. If anything, Flynn Jr.s tweet sounds like a threat and Cheeto Benito will let him twist in the wind. With all the squawking from Flynn and Jr, I wonder if they have been notified that they will need to surrender to authorities soon for their indictments.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: So in a game of chicken usually both sides have equal ability to destroy each other. What’s Flynn’s leverage?
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Adam L Silverman: I believe Mueller isn’t going to flinch, but I can’t help but think Trump is going to fire him and pardon everyone in sight in the next few weeks. I hope I’m wrong and I know it’s almost pointless to speculate right now – not looking for reassurance (although I’d take any on offer, if it included evidence or good arguments), more like for a bit of hand-holding.
I do think that Trump will turn the pardon process into a grotesque mafioso ring-kissing spectacle, dropping hints and coy tweets, dangling it just out of reach until each flunky properly abases himself and proclaims the glory of His Orangeness before issuing each one.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: His only leverage is what, if anything, the President might do to protect him. Beyond that he has none. I don’t know him, never met him, but my understanding is he is supremely arrogant and takes over confidence in his abilities to unforeseen heights. Which is how he’s gotten himself into this mess.
Major Major Major Major
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: On the bright side, that sure would be amazing to live through.
mike in dc
@Adam L Silverman:
The thing is, a plea deal can be nearly as good as a pardon, if your proffer is good enough. And the plea deal is guaranteed, whereas the pardon is somewhat…speculative. Of course, Flynn’s proffer would almost certainly have to implicate his former boss in crimes.
Omnes Omnibus
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: Trump cannot legally fire him off his own nut. He is employed under Civil Service rules. He can only be fired for cause.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Major Major Major Major:
“On the bright side, that earthquake that destroyed my house also knocked down the buildings blocking my view!”
Wapiti
For Mr. General Flynn: if the best job your kid can hold at 35(?) is working for you, you might have fucked up at being a father.
Major Major Major Major
@Omnes Omnibus: Can’t he just Saturday Night Massacre at the DOJ until he finds somebody who doesn’t give a shit about Civil Service rules?
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: Right, silver lining!
Adam L Silverman
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: I wouldn’t bet against Mueller. The President will do whatever it is he does. And I’m not even sure he could articulate a single reason for it whenever he does it. But anyone who thinks that Mueller doesn’t have contingency plans in place is a fool. And if Mueller goes, regardless of his own contingency plans, I expect our allied and partner intel communities to start leaking what they’ve provided to the counterintelligence investigation. They’ll have to to protect themselves.
Omnes Omnibus
@Major Major Major Major: I fire you from your job.
Do you still have a job? Yes, I have no authority to fire you.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Omnes Omnibus:
President Donald J Trump
White House
Dear Fox Mulder,
You’re a total loser and a f*g and I bet you like sleeping with men. I’m supreme leader of these United States and I’m the only one that matters. YOU’RE FIRED for being a traitorous libtard. Loren ipsum, you’re an enemy of the state and will be sent to Guantamo Bay toot sweet. Putin Rules.
P.S.: I win.
I’m sure that’s how his letter would go.
dmsilev
@Major Major Major Major: As the apocryphal curse goes, “May you live in interesting times and come to the attention of important people”.
Major Major Major Major
@Omnes Omnibus: Rosenstein can fire Mueller, right? As could the next person in line if Rosenstein is fired? And Trump can fire Rosenstein?
ETA and I’m sure some hack could drum up “cause”. What’s Mueller going to do, bring him to court? Like that wouldn’t drag on for a while and put the investigation on pause.
Anne Laurie
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
Were this to happen — and I don’t think it’s likely, because there are still Repubs in DC with some grasp of reality — I can see Trump publicly offering pardons, and then not actually carrying through once his minions have publicly (further) debased themselves. Like his VP reality-tv antics, only squared.
And the minions can remember this quite as well as you or I, even the very stupid ones, like Pence. Trump doesn’t look any better if he’s publicly teasing the equivalent of a Bachelor-style rose ceremony, but no blushing candidates show up once the cameras are rolling. It seems to me even Jared or Stephen Miller would have the sense to discourage Liddle Lord Smallgloves from embarrassing himself quite that much…
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
He does that he seals his fate. Virginia and various other places showed that people are pissed. If Trump goes nuclear on the DOJ and Mueller, expect Congress to go into Democratic control. The remaining GOP will be so cowed they’ll go along with impeachment proceedings. Trump is fucked no matter what.
Geoduck
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: You actually think Trump would use “Loren ipsum” in a message?
hellslittlestangel
Flynn: Look how they massacred my boy …
mike in dc
Firing Mueller and pardoning everyone is essentially Trump’s last resort. He has no fallback option after that, except to depend upon the congressional GOP and right wing media machine and his base to back his play. The signals they’ve sent thus far are not 100% unambiguous in that regard. So, the question is, how far along in the process does Trump, if ever, pull the trigger on his last resort? Indicting Flynn? Indicting Kushner? Once Mueller has cooperating witnesses who finger Trump, it’s likely too late, because that information will get out faster if Mueller is fired. The fact that Mueller has already produced one cooperating witness suggests that the pardon is perhaps not the magic shield people are portraying it to be. It’s entirely possible that a collection of lesser players could produce information comparable to what the major players could.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@Geoduck:
Isn’t that the main argument of Gorka’s Ph.D. thesis?
Ridnik Chrome
I think if the Evil Oompa Loompa was going to fire Mueller he would have already done it by now.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Geoduck:
Not literally. That’s a joke about him trying to sound smart by using a legalistic latin-sounding phrase, ie ipso facto. Biff Tannen was based on Trump and he got all sorts of sayings fucked up. It’s like a meta joke.
Duane
@Omnes Omnibus:If Trump fires Mueller, or tries to, would that be enough for impeachment charges? Obstruction, president’s nuts, something…
RandomMonster
The road apple doesn’t fall far from the horse’s ass.
Major Major Major Major
@Duane: Don’t make me think of the president’s nuts ever again.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Duane: Probably yes. It also means that the likely Democratic wave to hit the 2018 midterms will be larger and the House will fall under our control. Trump may be impeached at this point if the rest of Congressional R’s go along if they’re convinced they’re fucked in 2020 or 2022. If not Trump will probably lose in 2020 even with Russian help.
I can’t emphasize how much his goose will be cooked if he does a Saturday Night Massacre.
patrick II
@Duane:
Trump has already done enough to be impeached, but that will only happen when a republican congress decides it is to their political advantage to do so, or Democrats pick up enough seats to do what is right.
Duane
@Major Major Major Major: Challenge accepted. Try these brazillians. They’re a little salty!
Mike J
opiejeanne
Trump is in Da Nang making a speech that seems at first to be about China but switched to being about Vietnam. There were some comments that are inappropriate. Oh now it’s a tour of Asia.
I’m dying. He’s talking about Singaporeans surviving on $500/day.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Major Major Major Major: Rosenstein has explicitly said that there’s virtually no conceivable scenario in which he’d fire Mueller (IIRC, he said there’d have to be conclusive evidence of some grievously out-of-character wrongdoing on Mueller’s part for him to do so), and given how pissed off the Comey memo seems to have made him, I see little reason to doubt him. Credit where it’s due, AG White Citizens’ Council has also said he won’t fire Mueller, and I think keeping Mueller in place is the main reason he’s staying in his position, which he doesn’t seem to enjoy. Senate Republicans have also said that if the Racist Keebler Elf is fired, that means war, and I think I might actually believe them, because the Senate is a tremendously insular organisation, and I think loyalty to a former Senator will trump (pun fully intended) loyalty to a president* who’s shown them none of the same and whom most of them don’t even like.
Beyond all that, though, I’m not sure any of this matters much, because Mueller is certainly prepared for all eventualities and has at least one dead man’s switch in place. Schneiderman has been looped into the investigation and the odds that he won’t issue indictments if Mueller is fired and/or Trump abuses his pardon power to interfere with the investigation are basically zero. (Not that pardons will necessarily even protect Trump – a person who accepts one can no longer take the Fifth. If Trump’s lawyers are remotely competent, they’re reminding him of this at least every twenty-four hours. I genuinely think this is why he’s only pardoned Arpaio – he doesn’t want anyone who knows more about his campaign to be legally compelled to testify.)
LosGatosCA
Trump will only help Manafort because he can’t let Don, Jr and Jared go to jail.
Flynn is likely on his own.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Mike J: I wish I could say this surprised me, but between the Moore revelations earlier this week and the president*’s penchant for spying/hitting on underage girls (not to mention his alleged rape of a thirteen-year-old, which somehow seems to have disappeared down the memory hole), I’d be more surprised if that didn’t turn out true.
TriassicSands
Not if even a single juror is a Trumpist. No amount of evidence of wrongdoing is going to persuade a true believer to convict.
Major Major Major Major
@(((CassandraLeo))): I was merely describing the mechanism he could use to fire Mueller, which is to fire Rosenstein and then fire whoever next has power to get rid of Mueller and so forth until somebody does. It’s silly to say he can’t fire Mueller, unless you’re making the very pedantic point that, while he can take unilateral action that would result directly in Mueller’s dismissal, he can’t “fire” Mueller.
patrick II
@(((CassandraLeo))):
I think an underappreciated hero in all of this is Rosenstein. He appointed Mueller in the first place, and has stood firm in backing Mueller with what has to be more pressure than we know
TriassicSands
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I could add many additional reasons to your list of why the GOP should die, but the conclusion would still be the same. There is no way to salvage the Republican Party of 2017. It was already too late years ago, but the rise of Trump and the home he has found among the likes of Ryan and McConnell has made things even worse. Flake and Corker are both further signs of what is so wrong with the party — they will only speak out when they, personally, have nothing to lose. There are no politically courageous Republicans (though I’d certainly welcome the appearance of one).
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
I’d lay odds on running and hiding.
If not for the fact Putin probably is waiting for just that and Flynn has to know that.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
Did you see my comments above? He would be ruined if he did that. Look at what happened in Virginia. People already hate and distrust him. Firing the lead investigator that is investigating your administration is not going to play well ( if you’ve got nothing to hide…). The midterms will be a resounding victory for liberals, especially if Trump goes nuclear on the DOJ.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
And that’s just for starters.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I was just responding to OO @#10.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
No, don’t expect that. If he’s going that far and if the GOP stands by him, all bets are off.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: Why wouldn’t you expect the Democrats to take Congress in this situation (or at least the House)? It also sounds like you think there are possibilities other than winning or losing an election?
piratedan
considering the grasp that these fellows have of the Constitution, the complete disregard we’ve seen with emoluments, the nepotism evidenced in the appointments of his daughter and son-in-law to de facto positions in his administration. The blatant perjury that has already been in evidence from his own Attorney General and their gutting of governing norms and procedures, why wouldn’t these guys believe that they could just fire everyone and walk away? Cripes, it appears that the current party in power was more than willing to violate campaign finance laws, engage in targeted voter suppression and even commit treason in hopes of winning the Presidency (and control of the House and Senate), so why not?
The media continues to slather over ANY possible Democratic Party Faux Pas while this merry band of yahoos are running around with their wands setting fire to the Room of Requirements and not knowing the spell to stop it, nor do they appear to be inclined to stop. Sexual Assault, sure, no problem, lying about your taxes, not a biggie, insulting families who’s kids have made the ultimate sacrifice, hell, and they won’t even lose any sleep over it. For good measure we’ll just make up some shit about our opponent, project all of our guilty practices onto her and watch the media take it seriously as if we’ve ever said anything truthful in the last decade. Enough cash gets spread around, people will just look the other way.
I understand that yes, there may be some people left over on the “other side” who have a conscience and a sense of duty, if so, where the fuck are they and why aren’t they helping to end this travesty.
TriassicSands
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I wish I believed that, but you apparently have a much higher opinion than I do of both the American electorate and the Republican Party.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TenguPhule:
The GOP isn’t the entire country. They pull something retarded like cancelling elections, tens (hundreds, or even millions?) of thousands being suddenly disenfranchised next year? What if GOP keeps its majority next year even when voters know they voted to remove them? You think we’re just going to stand by and let them turn us into Russia? Fuck that shit. If they’re dumb enough to do that they’ll be annihilated and history will recognize them for what they are: a dead end.
There wouldn’t be enough cops in the country to protect them.
Calouste
@TriassicSands: The cases will be in D.C. (Mueller) or NYC (Schneiderman). Not a lot of shitgibbonistas there.
dogwood
@Major Major Major Major:
With only 8 Republican Senators up for re-election, flipping the Senate is pretty unlikely. The House looks increasingly realistic though.
Wallis Lane
@Wapiti: Exhibits A and B: Eric and Donald Jr.
opiejeanne
Ugh. Trump was addressing the Indo-Pacific nations. My bad. I left the room when he started yammering about how unfair the WTO is to the US. It was embarrassing. Before that it was the comment about how nice the Vietnamese are and we’re all good friends now and a lot of people died there from both countries, and by the way did you know we had a BIG airbase right in DaNang?
sm*t cl*de
@opiejeanne:
Is there now anywhere in the world where US tourists can go without pretending to be Canadian?
Frankensteinbeck
@mike in dc:
Trump does not have a last resort. He is not able to plan ahead that coherently. To the extent he is, he has no patience. He’s a no-self-control, instant gratification guy. Which is why…
@Ridnik Chrome:
This. Mueller will not be fired, because the question was raised and answered long ago. Trump was pissed and publicly whined that Sessions should resign. Sessions ignored him.
Major Major Major Major
@Calouste: I imagine “having a strong political allegiance/opposition to the defendant” would get the juror dismissed during the selection process anyway.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@sm*t cl*de:
Russia? Belarus? Azerbaijan? Some of the
-stan countries? Oh you meant places worth visiting. In that case, no.
Millard Filmore
@Frankensteinbeck:
The latest Sessions perjury has been in front of Congress committees. Maybe Mueller has already turned Sessions, and part of his deal is that he does not resign.
TriassicSands
@piratedan:
The word “treason” is thrown around a lot in discussions of Trump and the Republican Party. However, from what I’ve gathered from reading, although we consider acts we’re aware of to be treasonous, they do not qualify under the Constitution.
For example:
We were not in 2015 and are not now at war with Russia. Complicating matters further would be whether the courts would deem it necessary for Congress to declare war for there to be any chance of treason being committed. If it serves any purpose, we could talk about Treason (constitutional definition) and treason (simply committing acts of disloyalty to our country). But, legally, there doesn’t seem to be any chance of Trump or his cronies ever facing charges of treason.
Major Major Major Major
Are we going to have a Fregeian debate about the meaning of ‘treason’ again? I’m off to Azeroth.
Millard Filmore
@TriassicSands: Can you be a traitor without committing treason?
Amir Khalid
@Geoduck:
Who is this Lauren Ipsum, anyway?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@TriassicSands:
Not officially and not conventionally. But yeah we are, bascially. This is cyberwar.
It will be enough that the vast majority of Americans treat them as traitors.
Origuy
@TriassicSands: IANAL, but I’m inclined to agree with you about treason. Let’s go with sedition. I think that fits just fine.
opiejeanne
@sm*t cl*de: I don’t know. When we’ve gone to Europe we’ve always had people ask us if we are American. We try to be very polite so they don’t seem sure. I had a lady in Paris ask me if we liked it and we told her we just loved it, and she beamed. Telling someone you love their home turns out to be a good way to thaw the ice. We had the good fortune to travel three times during the Obama administration, and he was very popular there.
Amir Khalid
@opiejeanne:
Singapore is like a nation consisting almost entirely of Manhattan. But even there you don’t need anywhere near US$500 a day to live.
opiejeanne
@Frankensteinbeck: Hey! The meet up is on Sunday, November 12th, at 11 am at Lucky Baldwin’s Trappiste in Pasadena on Colorado, corner of Allen. It’s right next to PCC, not the one in Old Town Pasadena. Mnemosyne says there’s lots of parking.
lgerard
When Flynn gets indicted trump is going to blow a fuse.
He could care less about Manafort or Papawhozis, they are disposable, but Flynn is his boy. He led the “lock her up” cheers.
He was even talking about bringing him back months after he was fired
TriassicSands
@Calouste:
That’s a point worth consideration. In DC, Trump only got 4% of the vote so it may well be that it is statistically unlikely for a Trumpist to make the cut. In NY, Trump got 36% of the vote. The odds would favor a Trumpist being on a NY jury. Worse, a Trump supporter, would, according to my own biases, be more likely to lie in order to be seated on a jury. That may or may not be true, but Trumpists have demonstrated convincingly that they don’t care about the truth.
@Major Major Major Major:
But, you would be depending on prospective jurors telling the truth. For some, it might be possible to demonstrate a prior strong allegiance, which could open them up for charges of perjury, but for many, or at least some, it wouldn’t be possible to convincingly show that allegiance. Social media could put people at much greater risk of having their true opinions revealed.
Amir Khalid
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
You give Trump far too much credit for knowledge of popular culture.
opiejeanne
@Amir Khalid: I think he misread the speech. There’s no way anyone 100* years ago was having trouble surviving on $500 a day.
*I’m not sure he said it was that long ago, but he was going back to when each country was in its darkest hours before becoming a democracy.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: I wouldn’t even count on elections going as planned if Mueller is fired early and the GOP stand by him. Too many players would enter the game at that point and there would be no rules. We’d have yet another urgent Constitutional Crisis combined with Foreign powers trying to bring down the regime in the midst of a probable market meltdown and respect for rule of law effectively gone.
It would be Chaos on a scale we’ve never seen before.
Vhh
@mike in dc: Mueller will space out the indictments so that Trump has to worry constantly about who’s next and whether to pull the fire Mueller or pardon triggers now or later. The stakes ratchet up with each hand.
Nixon fired Archie Cox, and it blew up in his face. Firing Mueller or issuing grotesque pardons would likely lead to Trump’s downfall, but timing and concurrent events (like wars or mass deportations) will play a role, too. Trump’s MO of lashing out like a cornered rat is both a strength and a weakness.
lgerard
@Major Major Major Major:
How many people do you think would be like the Martin Shkreli jurors
“I’m aware of the defendant and I hate him.”
TenguPhule
@Mike J: I made that same prediction back in March.
piratedan
@TriassicSands:
from Merriam Webster:
Definition of treason
1 :the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign’s family
2 :the betrayal of a trust :treachery
From Cornell Law School:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 807; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(2)(J), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)
emphasis mine
Now it’s been explained here ad infinitum that yes, there’s no formal declaration of war, yet I would be hard pressed for anyone to say that we’re not already at war, just not the usual type of warfare that we’ve grown used to with planes and tanks and rockets and soldiers. Now speaking to the definitions above, those actions are an accurate description of the actions of Edward Snowden, but perhaps you want to parse that out as espionage. Essentially we’re living through a constitutional crisis, an actual ongoing political coup where one political party has accepted help (intelligence, financial, logistic) from a foreign power in order to win control of the US Government, which has yet to be offered or charged against the myriad players involved in this sordid dance and that’s fine if you wish to wait for those shoes to drop..
Granted, you’re citing the Constitution, but the last I checked, not every single law is laid out within the Constitution itself. The last time I checked, I don’t believe that murder, sexual assault, embezzlement or rape are described there either. Nor does the Constitution lay out a description of what we experienced in the Cold War as a classic conflict nor does it handle the assault on our nation that is ongoing right fucking now via the political disinformation and hacking of our political entities by foreign powers. It most certainly is an act of war, regardless of what Congress is actually doing or how the media is choosing to characterize it.
TriassicSands
@Millard Filmore:
If we play with semantics, then I would say, Yes, you can be a traitor (general sense of the word) without committing Treason (constitutional sense).
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I would agree with that.
As for us being at war with Russia, I don’t think the current situation would hold up in court. If HRC were president and the Dems controlled both houses of Congress, then we might see governmental attitudes and policies that would, at least, lend credibility to our being at a kind of war with Russia. But I still don’t think it would win the day in court. And I think we can rest assured that lawyers would push the most legalistic interpretations of what is and isn’t war and/or treason.
Major Major Major Major
@Major Major Major Major: So that’s a ‘yes’ on the treason debate again, I see.
TenguPhule
@sm*t cl*de: Canada.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Amir Khalid:
I dunno. I’m sure Trump was somewhat aware of pop culture in the 90s. If you believe he’s suffering from early-onset dementia, the 90s may be a time he still remembers clearly. Think of “Fox Mulder” not being so much an insult as a mixture of delusion, paranoid mania, and dementia making Trumpie confuse “Mueller” with “Mulder”. That’s my overcomplicated explanation of a bad joke and I’m sticking to it.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
We’ve seen they have no problems with simply stealing them. But if and I want to stress the if here, if the GOP stand fast by Trump if he disbands the Mueller investigation, we’re in completely uncharted waters. We’re in unthinkable territory, where it damn well does become thinkable.
TenguPhule
@piratedan: Interfering with the political elections of another country is generally considered an act of war.
We only got away with it for so long because nobody wanted to fight us openly.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Aware enough to know Mulder had a first name?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major: I don’t know maybe? You had to be living under a rock to not be aware of the X-Files post-95-96. It was big back then and still is today.
I was trying to think of a funny way Trump would screw up Mueller’s name. It only just occured to me to use “Bueller”. I also considered “Rupert S. Mulder”.
Duane
@lgerard: The Flynn’s behaved foolishly during the campaign. A retired general participating in that “lock her up” stupidity. Even with that, I didn’t expect they’d move past foolish to criminal.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I think the last one’s funny.
I don’t know how many people who were just sort of peripherally aware would know their names beyond “Mulder & Scully” though. I talk to folks all the time who can’t recall their first names but watched the show casually back in the day.
sm*t cl*de
@opiejeanne:
Yes, to be fair, people elsewhere in the world will generally realise that if you are travelling outside the US then you are probably not representative of Trump’s constituency,
sm*t cl*de
“You gotta help me, Don, you know what it’s like to have a Mini-Me who turns out to be a worthless POS.”
Lulymay
@opiejeanne:
We walked the Camino de Santiago (Pilgrim Trail) in Spain in 2008 and met many younger Americans who were doing the same. Wonderful young people who represented the USA in the best possible way. I especially loved those 3 females sitting on a log along the trail who were sharing the last of a jar of peanut butter (each wiping there forefinger and savouring the last bite) as being a Canadian, I must have toast and PB every morning and PB is not sold in Spain!
One young female we met was doing the pilgrimage while on a break from teaching in France. She said she didn’t make a lot of money but was over there for the experience. However, every time she had a spare $5, she would went it by Interac to Barak Obama’s campaign fund.
It really brought home the need to get all younger generations interested in our political systems and why it was so important to get out and vote, even if you didn’t have that extra $5 to send of to anyone’s campaign fund. Its something for all us to think about.
Mike J
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
Fair enough. I guess it was a little too forced and obvious to be believed.
Amir Khalid
@Major Major Major Major:
I’m a big fan myself, from back in the day. I could tell you Scully’s pet dog’s name, Mulder’s and Scully’s middle names, their boss’ middle name, Mulder’s mother’s maiden name, and the first name shared by their fathers, her older brother, and their son.
hovercraft
@Frankensteinbeck:
Actually he did offer to resign, but Twitler did not accept it because of all the blowback from the gnomes friends on the hill, and more importantly from the right wing fever swamps. Sessions is loved by the crazies, he’s a racist in a position to punish blacks and browns. He led the charge against immigration reform, when Twitler wanted to fire him, they pushed back.
Amir Khalid
@Mike J:
If I were British, I wouldn’t want Trump addressing Parliament either. And if I were American, I wouldn’t want him addressing Congress.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Major Major Major Major: I mean, yes, technically, he can do that. But my second paragraph gets at why practically, that’s not an option. Given how prepared Mueller has been, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he not only has a dead man’s switch in place but has informed the Shitgibbon Administration that it is in place. But then, if he hasn’t, it’ll still blow up if the president* attempts to fire him.
@TriassicSands: Add another vote for the “we may not be in a declared state of war, but it’s nonetheless a state of war” interpretation. For practical purposes, Russia’s interference with our election was an act of war. It’s not a conventional war; it’s a cyberwar. But it’s my understanding that a rather large number of legal scholars nonetheless consider interference with a foreign election to be an act of war. It remains to be seen whether this interpretation will hold up in a court of law largely because there has never before been cyberwar on this scale. Regardless, I’m 100% on board with calling it treason. It might not hold up in a court of law, but Republicans have been saying off-the-wall shit that doesn’t hold up in a court of law for decades. They collaborated with a hostile foreign power to suborn our democracy. I don’t really give a shit whether that meets the legal definition of treason or not. They’re still traitors. In the immortal words of efgoldman, fuckem.
TriassicSands
@(((CassandraLeo))):
I think you mean “subvert” our democracy.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion about what is and isn’t treason. I was simply pointing out that based on the facts as they exist, I doubt any of the Trumpists will be found guilty of constitutional treason in an American court of law.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@TriassicSands: You’re probably right on the diction issue. It’s too late for me to think completely straight.
Whether they’re convicted of literal treason will likely depend on whether cyberwar is considered war in a court. Imho it should be as odds are that this will be how an increasing number of wars in the future are fought, but courts are not known for their technical expertise, so I’ll acknowledge that this may not hold up. Regardless, I’m not really arguing for legal strategy, which isn’t my wheelhouse. I’m arguing a rhetorical strategy.
Gerald Parks
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
True THAT!
J R in WV
@sm*t cl*de:
Maybe if you wear a Tee shirt that says ” I was a Democrat who voted against him! ” you can go most important places.
David Evans
@sm*t cl*de: The UK has too many embarrassments of its own to be laughing at yours.
Amir Khalid
@(((CassandraLeo))):
I think TriassicSands is saying that, until and unless Congress formally declares the US at war with a named enemy state (or states), the Constitutionally-defined offence of treason doesn’t exist. And that acts of war against the US don’t by themselves create a state of war; Congress must still make the declaration.
Seeking/getting the aid of a foreign power to influence an election, or taking its direction while in office is heinously disloyal, beyond any doubt. But it’s not treason unless the US is at war with it. Were I American, I would be open to expanding the Constitutional definition to include such acts.
Sloane Ranger
Open thread and Foreign Affairs-ey so reporting from UK that Alex Salmons, former Scot Nat leader will be presenting a show on Russia Today. He has angrily denied being a Russian puppet, claiming he will have full editorial control. Even if that’s true, Nats will tune in to his show and stay for the propaganda.
Sloane Ranger
Salmond not Salmons! Damn autocorrect.
Cermet
@mike in dc: A pardon is an admission of guilt and that one did, in fact, committed criminal acts; some may not want that. For the orange fart cloud to pardon his son or himself, then they are fully admitting to both criminal behavior and guilt for said crimes.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Sloane Ranger:
We had a guy here do that last year, he’s a Russian puppet(also President of the United States).
TS
(from the Washington Post)
One child with an allergy to dairy dies and a preschool is closed.
500 people are shot in Las Vegas, 26 killed in Texas – their families get thoughts and prayers.
Amir Khalid
@sm*t cl*de:
There’s still some goodwill for Americans out here on the rest of Earth. If you leave the MAGA cap at home and remember not to praise Donald Trump, you should be okay.
OzarkHillbilly
@Major Major Major Major: After one half hour of misspent time I swore I’d never watch it again and didn’t. I just don’t get the attraction so many had for the show.
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: Never heard of it.
Dmbeaster
@Cermet: The admission of guilt is implied, and of legal consequence. All of ones rights are restored as if no crime had been committed. One can accept a pardon based on innocence and continue to assert innocence without affecting the pardon.
Aimai
@Major Major Major Major: because tp spends all his time fantasizing about violence, not politics.
Zach
People are too distracted by the prostitute angle of the leaks from Schiller’s testimony yesterday.
Trump claims to have no business in Russia (deals, whatever). Why the hell is he posting security outside his hotel door at a Ritz Carlton and why is he worried about surveillance in the room? I’m no fake billionaire, but I’m pretty sure this isn’t a normal degree of due diligence for even the most rich people who are just in the country to lord over a beauty contest.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: Just born lucky I guess. ;-)
TriassicSands
@Amir Khalid:
Well said.
The one caveat I might add is that we live in an era when we fight wars that are never declared. In the case of something like the Iraq War if an issue of loyalty/treason arose it is an open question how the Supreme Court would rule. I think, undoubtedly, the defense would argue that without a formal congressional declaration of war there would be no constitutionally valid state of war. And, therefore, no treason. The prosecution could argue that we were in a de facto state of war and that should suffice to allow a conviction for treason. I would think it more likely that the prosecution would avoid playing word games and, as in the case of the Rosenbergs, simply charge the accused with a provable offense that carried an acceptable penalty.
Amir Khalid
@OzarkHillbilly:
It’s a pity you didn’t stick with it. The X-Files was groundbreaking in its complexity and variety. Scully is an iconic female lead character: she was never merely Mulder’s sidekick or arm candy, which was all too common for female lead characters then and even now. She challenged his ideas at every turn. as their relationship evolved over the seasons. The episodes could be horror, action/conspiracy thriller, comedy, drama, or any combination of these. The lead acting was superb: It was a thrill to watch the then-unknown Gillian Anderson go toe-to-toe with Brad Dourif at his scenery-chewing best. It was also the first TV show to acquire a worldwide Internet-based fan following.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Amir Khalid: @TriassicSands: Again, this is fine for lawyers to discuss, and if it’s unlikely they’d obtain a treason conviction, then of course they shouldn’t bother torpedoing their case with one. Fine.
But all these technicalities are completely irrelevant to the American people. They probably aren’t even capable of understanding them. For practical purposes, the Republican Party is the party of treason through and through. They are the Vichy Republicans. That is how history will judge them, and it’s the message we should be putting forth regardless of whether it’s what we’ll use in court.
Ramalama
@opiejeanne: Night and day, the reactions from people to me and my car with American plates in Montreal. People I knew started to give me lectures at parties….in Montreal, party central…about world history right after Bush started massaging Angela Merkel’s shoulders at some G8 conference. It was the tipping point. Then Obama gets elected and what happens? People are honking at me, giving me a thumbs up. So far, I’ve had maybe 5 strangers talk to me about Trump after seeing my plates. I am in the process of becoming a Canadian resident (finally) so will soon have Quebec license plates (even while I will be keeping my American passport).
Amir Khalid
@(((CassandraLeo))):
Americans would be quite right to consider certain of these acts treasonous even if they are not technically treason. But the legal distinction will still matter to those who will point to the lack of prosecutions for treason as proof that the various Trumpistas did nothing treasonous.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@Wapiti: Truthfully, I’ve wondered if there isn’t something wrong with Flynn Jr. I mean wrong besides the obvious. His father hires him and protects him like a child.
oldgold
Today is the anniversay of the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hgI8bta-7aw
Adria McDowell
@oldgold: I never trust a body of water that can generate its own weather!
StringOnAStick
@sm*t cl*de: Thanks for that reassurance. Husband and I are now freer to travel again so we’ve been doing so. Our recent trip to Austria ended up being hiking and hanging with Brits mostly so we got a dual cultural experience. I was shocked that none of them knew about Russian involvement in brexit. I’m sure some eyes are opening now.
New Zealand is next on our list/list, but it looks like it will have to be late 2018. I’m definitely giving the boss a big heads up so we can go for an extended period.
Boatboy_srq
@Ridnik Chrome: I’m JUST old enough to remember and miss Margaret Chase Smith. And I remember Bill Cohen well.
Another Scott
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: I think Donnie is too distracted with the DPRK and Iran to do anything about Mueller soon. I think that if he were going to try to fire Mueller soon, he would have done so immediately after the Manafort and Gates indictments. I’m much more worried about him doing something rash in Korea and Iran once he gets back home after the 15th. I think he’d love to dump a bunch of Tomahawks and MOABs on Yongbyon and is looking for any excuse to do so – even though it would lead to a conflagration. :-(
I think it’s clear that Rosenstein will not fire Mueller under any circumstances. And he’ll fight any effort to do so. Of course, Donnie could fire him, and lots of people below him, but it would further destroy his prospects for any legislation in Congress, and speed up his impeachment.
I have no inside knowledge – these are just my guesses.
Cheers,
Scott.
MCA1
@(((CassandraLeo))): Exactly. Who f’ing cares if it meets a specific legal threshold? One need not commit formal treason under the Constitution for me to call them a traitor. Or disloyal. Or Benedict Arnold.
This is about setting the rhetorical frame and forcing Republicans to look unpatriotic trying to minimize what these guys did. “They’re traitors.” “But they didn’t commit treason, under the current legal definition.” “They sold out their country.” “Yes, but see, the Constitutional definition of treason isn’t met by their actions.” “Oh, so you’re not disputing that they sold out their country.”
burnspbesq
@LosGatosCA:
Manafort is still fucked, even if he is pardoned. Once DOJ is done with him, the IRS gets its turn, and it appears that he under-reported his income by tens of millions of dollars. If the IRS can prove fraud, there is no statute of limitation, and the burden of proof is only clear and convincing evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt.. And the President’s pardon power doesn’t extend to civil matters.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Amir Khalid: I’m going to quote a great anecdote about a certain Texas Democrat: “Make the son of a bitch deny it.” If they’re arguing that what they did doesn’t technically meet the legal definition of treason because we’re not technically in a declared state of war, they’re on the defensive over technicalities that will look completely insignificant to a large portion of the American populace. What @MCA1 said is a likely indication of how many of these conversations would go; we are not dealing with rhetorical geniuses here. Fuckem.
SWMBO
@TenguPhule: That would give Putin a chubbie, now wouldn’t it?