Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Prediction: the GOP will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

The GOP is a fucking disgrace.

Consistently wrong since 2002

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

In my day, never was longer.

Tick tock motherfuckers!

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

After roe, women are no longer free.

You cannot shame the shameless.

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

The GOP couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

No one could have predicted…

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread

Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread

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I reckon Dave will be along later with a more comprehensive look at the latest attempt to kill the ACA, but this appears to be a decent summary:

So does this:

Open thread.

Reader Interactions

106Comments

  2. 2.

    kindness

    Tired of so much winning yet?

    What? They mis-spelled it? Oh…. you say it’s ‘whining’.

    Oh…..Never mind.

  3. 3.

    SFAW

    One hopes ZEGS/ZEGK had a box of Kleenexes nearby when he read Spiro’s tweet, because he’d cream his jeans something awful.

  4. 4.

    rikyrah

    Topher Spiro‏Verified account @TopherSpiro

    BREAKING: The nation’s doctors, hospitals, and insurers: the tax bill will destabilize the market and “result in a significant increase in premiums, which would in turn substantially increase the number of uninsured Americans.”

  7. 7.

    Duane

    Five dead, 2 wounded in Northern California mass murder. Or, another day in the USA.
    Thoughts and prayers, I’m sure. It’s all we can do.

  9. 9.

    catclub

    This will (I expect) force the same two or three GOP senators who killed the last Healthcare repeal bill, to kill the tax bill as well.
    The only point in putting it in is because the Idiot in the White House tweeted about it. I guess when it fails they will have something to blame that was his.

  10. 10.

    different-church-lady

    But hey, Paul Ryan is gonna train people to not grope women on Capitol Hill, so it all evens out.

  11. 11.

    MisterForkbeard

    Man, it’s almost like they’re evil. I can’t even figure out what the supposed benefit of this IS, other than more supply-side fellating of corporations. It’s literally all they stand for at the moment.

  14. 14.

    TenguPhule

    @catclub:

    This will (I expect) force the same two or three GOP senators who killed the last Healthcare repeal bill, to kill the tax bill as well.

    I wouldn’t want to bet my life on that.

  16. 16.

    jl

    Thanks for the news. I guess this is the GOPers’ response to the multi billion $ oopsie in their ultra rich person’s tax slash bill arithmetic, that can’t be handled with reconciliation. They are going to take another pass at wrecking health care reform.

    They just absolutely have to, need, to suck billions out of health care system in order to pass their tax slash scheme under reconciliation. There is just no way around it. Need to start write-in, call-in campaign again and stop this.

    Edit: and I forget whether mandate can be eliminated under reconciliation. They pump out so many scams, it’s hard for me to keep track of everything. Edit2: I guess they can, or they wouldn’t stick it back in their tax slash scam.

  17. 17.

    randy khan

    I’m trying to understand why they keep making changes that will make more people oppose the bill. (Yeah, I know, evil, but very impractical evil. It’s like the bad guy who decides to kill James Bond with an elaborate, complicated machine, rather than just shooting him in the head.)

  20. 20.

    Yarrow

    Calling all my reps in about 30 minutes. Fuckers. They want to kill me. No, wait. Bankrupt me and then kill me. Gotta get the money.

  21. 21.

    Jeffro

    I can’t decide what the best metaphor for these kkklowns would be: a party in its feverish death-throes, coke-addled lab rats, the banality of evil made flesh…

    …I’m probably overthinking it. “Smash-and-Grab Republicans” sounds like a pretty catchy campaign phrase, doesn’t it?

  24. 24.

    Mary G

    I already had three postcards on my desk to Darrell Issa, just wrote another and called both offices. He is sweating bullets trying to get them to keep the SALT deductions, went on Fox Business & everything.

  25. 25.

    NotMax

    Riding mower repair van arrived today. Needed new battery. Final cost: $0.

    Even with this fershlugginer cold, must attend to the worst to the jungle outside. Hoping to sneak in a nap first if I can assume a horizontal position without triggering more coughing spells – 50/50 chance on that..

  26. 26.

    Yarrow

    Won’t this gutting of healthcare affect everyone? Like lifetime caps will come back. Even employer-based health insurance has those.

  29. 29.

    Mai.naem.mobile

    @different-church-lady: I doubt that. Flake is a Koch whore and I would be shocked if his post-Senate job is directly or indirectly for Koch and the Kochs want their tax cuts. Flake is a seriously big time Koch whore.

  32. 32.

    catclub

    @Yarrow: No. it only affects the tax penalty for not enrolling ( which is plenty) but it is a tax law so it cannot include all those other things. They are not permitted under reconciliation.

    Yes, I am starting to worry that the rules for reconciliation will be ignored. But until they are, these would not be allowed in the bill.

  33. 33.

    dmsilev

    @catclub: They had a big problem with the tax bill and Senate rules even before this, which is that per the ‘Byrd rule’, you can only do the 50 vote thing if your bill doesn’t increase the deficit in year 11 and beyond, and well, tax cuts. There’s been some hemming and hawing about how they’ll square that circle but no actual answers. Maybe going over the top into the health-care no man’s land once again is a way of getting out of it.

  34. 34.

    jl

    @randy khan: They need to find money for their tax slash scam. Wrecking health insurance markets will get them the needed money. CBO wrote a letter with finding that the deficits produced by the tax slash too big to be handled by normal reconciliation procedure. OMB will not be able to find enough funds that can be sequestered to make up for the lost revenue. See Krugman’s twitter feed this morning.

  35. 35.

    TenguPhule

    @dmsilev:

    There’s been some hemming and hawing about how they’ll square that circle but no actual answers.

    Last I heard, they intended to make all the middle class tax breaks temporary and all the rich and business tax cuts permanent to get around the deficit rules.

    Basically Bush Tax Cuts II, Electric Boondoogle.

  40. 40.

    OGLiberal

    I grew up in Dem heavy, union town. Very white. Still very but not exclusively white. But very white. I’ve cut most ties to the town in that I don’t give a shit how they vote – too small to make a difference on any scale. But most of the white folks I grew up with – OK, almost 99% were white so why make a distinction – love Trump. This is across income and education strata.

    What unites them? I don’t know because they’ll never say but I have a strong belief that they think lazy brown people are the only thing holding them and the country back. So they’ll back tax cuts that will never help them because at least it will keep money out of the hands of lazy free loading brown folks trying to feed their kid.

    I’m sorry but excluding few exceptions among the Conservative intelligentsia (and most are neo-cons, with whom I have many foreign policy issues), the main difference between the two sides today is whether brown people matter as much as whites or if they don’t.

    We should just have a 3/5ths referendum and let them go on record for that.

  43. 43.

    oldster

    Our message for the midterms: as long as Republicans are in power, your health care will never be safe.

  44. 44.

    rikyrah

    Gene Sperling‏Verified account @genebsperling

    Confused about GOP claims on Senate Tax Bill?
    Consider:
    — 64 million earning $1 million get 100X more than $40K-$50K earners
    — 19M earning < $200K get tax hike
    — GOP budget cuts Medicaid/Medicare by $1.8 trillion
    10:02 PM – 12 Nov 2017

  46. 46.

    randy khan

    @jl:

    I get that they need to find money; I’m just staggered by how they keep finding ways to tick more people off with each iteration. Of course, the easiest way to find the money would be to reduce the size of the tax cuts for billionaires, but that thought never would occur to them.

  47. 47.

    Elie

    These folks are fucked. There is no fix for this in what they are attempting… it will just be more chaos and no solution — again. Their incompetence and evil is screaming out and there can no longer be any denial that they are going to blow themselves up. This will not work but they must be near suicidal — and that is what is scary…

  48. 48.

    jl

    I’d guess that after the multi billion $ oopsie was discovered in the GOP tax slash scam, they asked the donors if it could be trimmed a little.
    I wonder how long it took their billionaires to yell back “HELL NO!’.
    They are in a pickle.

  49. 49.

    TenguPhule

    @Elie: Just because its suicide doesn’t mean they don’t have the votes to pass it.

    It all comes down to how many Republicans can make themselves do the right thing and not vote for this steaming mess.

    Let that sink in for a moment.

  50. 50.

    catclub

    @OGLiberal:

    the main difference between the two sides today is whether brown people matter as much as whites or if they don’t.

    I see Black Lives Matter as a mostly helpless organization. They see it as stormtroopers of forced reparations.

  51. 51.

    sharl

    Listening to C-SPAN’s live coverage of Sen. Orin Hatch’s committee (Budget or Finance, I forget what it’s called).

    Committee Dems are giving Hatch well deserved Holy Hell over being blindsided regarding the ACA-strangling amendment repealing the individual mandate. I’m not even clear on whether the amendment and other aspects of the draft legislation have been officially introduced, but the Dem Senators monitoring their social media are noting in committee that McConnell and other GOP leadership are confirming it to reporters. Dems are also screaming about lack of time for deliberations and for offering amendments.

    Basic response from Hatch and some of the committee Republicans: too bad, so sad, sucks to be you.

    {Captain Obvious} These are truly awful people. {/Captain Obvious}

  53. 53.

    catclub

    @Elie: Hubris. They decided that they would get all these things done with zero Democratic votes.
    Instead of saying they “will find bipartisan solutions to the nation’s problems” and at least pretend to work with the Democrats or find a few in deep red states who will go along with something. Paul Ryan – boy genius legislator – knows better.

  55. 55.

    TenguPhule

    Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine), one of the Republicans who opposed previous attempts to roll back the health care law, said she was concerned about including the mandate repeal while the Senate was still addressing a health care compromise negotiated by Sens. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.) and Patty Murray (D-Wash.).

    “I personally think that it complicates tax reform to put the repeal of the mandate in there, particularly if it’s done before the Alexander-Murray bill passes because of the impact on premiums,” Collins said. “I’m going to see what the bill says.”

    Translation: What’s in it for me, McConnell?

    We know what they are. Now they’re just dickering over the price.

    Hopefully she’s not willing to sell herself cheap and he’s not willing to pay market value.

  56. 56.

    jl

    @randy khan: Their donors are insane with greed. The only ‘reform’ in their tax bill that closes loopholes and ends tax expenditures is for poor through moderately affluent people, not any truly rich person or giant corporation. No rich funder would give up anything to get a big tax cut. The GOP has been trying over last few weeks to get big shots to agree to some ‘reform’ (aka closing loopholes), and telling them some shared sacrifice was needed because their attempt to sabotage health care reform failed earlier this year, and they weren’t getting the expected money from that.

    Their big donors said no, we want it all right now. So, now the GOP has to put big and very obvious sabotage to health care reform back in the bill to find the money.

    I hope it can be stopped, and will be another example of the old saying ‘pigs get fed and hogs get slaughtered’.

  57. 57.

    TenguPhule

    @sharl:

    Basic response from Hatch and some of the committee Republicans: too bad, so sad, sucks to be you.

    Wood chippers. Feet First. All of them.

  58. 58.

    SFAW

    @NotMax:

    Dang. There goes the theory it is pronounced Throatwarbler Mangrove.

    Actually, it’s “Throatwobbler Mangrove.”

    [Take it from someone who used to pronounce it the way you writ it, and found out I wuz worng.]

  60. 60.

    Yarrow

    The R reps who have announced they’re not running for reelection may feel freer to vote for this monstrosity. They are now working for wingnut welfare spots after their Congressional jobs, not having to get reelected.

  61. 61.

    TenguPhule

    @Yarrow: If more Republicans start announcing early retirements before this bill is put to a final vote, we’re probably in trouble.

  63. 63.

    JMG

    What goes around, comes around. If Dems regain Congress and the White House in 20121, they will have no reason not to cram through legislation for universal Medicare/Medicaid and draconian tax increases on the wealthy — like 95 percent estate tax of all assets over $100 million. Or maybe $50 million.

  64. 64.

    TenguPhule

    @randy khan:

    Others (I’m thinking of a couple of Tuesday Group reps here) may find that they no longer care what the donors want.

    Requires Integrity not in evidence.

  65. 65.

    TenguPhule

    @JMG:

    they will have no reason not to cram through legislation for universal Medicare/Medicaid and draconian tax increases on the wealthy — like 95 percent estate tax of all assets over $100 million. Or maybe $50 million.

    This would require raw courage and a willingness to lose a working majority I don’t see coming from our Democratic party.

  66. 66.

    trollhattan

    Ah Texas, we can always count on you.

    The Texas Commission on Judicial Conduct publicly reprimanded Dallas Judge Teresa Hawthorne for scolding jurors and intervening in a criminal case involving her nephew. Three jurors from a rape case went on record to criticize Judge Hawthorne’s views on a rape conviction, The Dallas Morning News reported. Judge Hawthorne will remain on the bench despite the ruling.

    “Quite frankly, I am disturbed. I am disturbed by the way you came back with such a harsh verdict and sentence for this man’s life in such a short time. Did you even discuss the details of the case at all?” one juror testified the judge lectured them.

    That juror also claimed Judge Hawthorne said, “I definitely would have wanted to hear from the defendant’s mother.”

    The foreperson of the jury said Judge Hawthorne told jurors she “did not believe the victim was raped at all.” A third juror said Judge Hawthorne asked, “how we could have a good conscience about our decision” and “could not believe that we found the defendant guilty.”

    “The Commission concludes that Judge Hawthorne’s conduct, as described above, constituted willful and/or persistent violations of … the Texas Code of Judicial Conduct and constituted willful or persistent conduct that is clearly inconsistent with the proper performance of her duties,” the public reprimand concluded.

  67. 67.

    TS

    @Elie: They cannot govern – they only know how to oppose. When a party’s platform says government is bad, when they appoint people to head departments with the aim of gutting and destroying said departments – the result is what is now happening. Utter chaos.

  68. 68.

    jl

    @TenguPhule: For Senators, what is their confidence that if they make themselves too obnoxious to the voters, will big donor money still be able to win them their next election. I think that is the issue in terms of stopping it. The House already passed their own health care sabotage bills with no problem during the repeal/replace fiasco earlier this year.

  69. 69.

    JMG

    @TenguPhule: Action breeds reaction. It’s a political fact of life. Any new Democratic majority is going to be about ten steps to the left of the current minority, which in turn is about ten steps to the left of the majority Obama had in 2009-2010.

  70. 70.

    TenguPhule

    @jl: If they plan to retire they need those WIngnut Welfare positions. So if there are no more announcements of retirement you’re probably on the right track.

    But if there are more announcements before the vote then things could get bad.

  71. 71.

    TenguPhule

    Could the Roy Moore Saga get any worse? You Betcha!

    As chief justice of Alabama’s supreme court, Moore twice argued that the state’s “rape shield” law should not prevent alleged sex offenders from using certain evidence about their underage accusers’ personal lives to discredit them.

    The cases were among 10 between 2013 and 2016 where Moore dissented from the court’s majority view and sided with alleged offenders who were appealing to the court as part of their efforts to overturn convictions or punishments for sexual crimes.

    I feel sick.

  72. 72.

    Humdog

    I do not understand the mandate thing saving the govt money. Ok, no mandate so some people who were receiving subsidies to buy insurance are going to stop buying them now? After five or so years of coverage, this next year, when prices for subsidized buyers are at record lows, people who did have coverage are going to give it up rather than take snarky free bronze plans? 13 million of the 20 odd million of the subsidized market will not take nearly free health plans after getting used to having coverage for five years? How is this supposed to make sense?

  73. 73.

    jl

    @TenguPhule: OK, I thought you were talking about the House. Some rink dink wingnut welfare job is good enough for an average GOP House nutcase. Office with desk, phone and chair, light bulb, and rent money. Senator will want a sweeter deal to compensate for huge loss of Senatorial dignitude and gravitas and free TV time.

  75. 75.

    TenguPhule

    @Humdog:

    How is this supposed to make sense?

    The government only counts the money saved by not having to pay the subsidies on those plans that people will not buy without a mandate encouraging them to do so.

  76. 76.

    Yarrow

    @randy khan: Don’t donors fund think tanks and that kind of thing? If those reps are looking for a job after Congress, they might still want to keep on donors’ good sides.

  77. 77.

    TenguPhule

    @jl: Koch and Mercers have millions to spread around. GOP senators routinely settle for hundreds or even tens of thousands (campaign contributions).

  78. 78.

    NotMax

    Interesting Mexican film found on Netflix – Warehoused (Almacenados</em).

    Adroit and low-key absurdist portrayal of, for lack of a better term, the industry of naught. trailer (Spanish)

  79. 79.

    TenguPhule

    @JMG:

    Any new Democratic majority is going to be about ten steps to the left of the current minority, which in turn is about ten steps to the left of the majority Obama had in 2009-2010.

    I don’t think so. When we get bigger we tend to have more moderate/conservative Democrats who are harder to keep in line then most felines. That’s how we got our working majority in 2009.

  80. 80.

    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap

    Someone over at LGM said that the letter from the Pastors supporting Moore was faked ? Anyone else seen this?

  82. 82.

    rikyrah

    David Begnaud‏Verified account @DavidBegnaud

    Close to 150,000 Puerto Rican’s have fled the island, on their own, since Hurricane Maria.

    Governor @ricardorossello just told @NatResources committee, “If we get the resources to rebuild, people will come back to Puerto Rico”
    12:38 PM – 14 Nov 2017

    Scully Sullivan‏ @scully_sullivan

    Scully Sullivan Retweeted David Begnaud

    Trump doesn’t want to rebuild Puerto Rico
    He wants to remove as many of the population out of the islands as possible
    I think Putin has plans for it

  84. 84.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    Goddammit, I just found out that one of my favorite teachers and coaches in high school just took a very quiet felony plea to doing his stepdaughters way back when.

    He’d been an Army drill sergeant with Vietnam ribbons, was the defensive coordinator and was brusque as shit. More Catholic than the pope, too. He’d have been fucking around with those girls about the time I was in high school.

    I thought that my high school escaped the shit and scandals – we knew who the gay priests and brothers were, but thought they were great, and they’d NEVER touch anybody. The lay staff was all pretty well established in life, and we trusted them.

    This bugs the crap out of me.

  86. 86.

    Humdog

    @TenguPhule: I understand that,I just do not think that 13 of the 20 some odd million subsidized buyers are going to give it up, especially this year. 65% of the subsidized market did not want health insurance at all. Bull!

  87. 87.

    sharl

    @sharl: Welp, Hatch just adjourned his committee session. No improved news came from there since my previous comment. I’m no expert – I just happened to have C-SPAN on when the committee proceedings were joined – but it seemed to me that the committee Dems did about as well as they could, given their minority status. They even called for a roll call vote on a move to override Hatch’s procedural motion to bum rush this whole thing. The Dems lost that vote of course – a party-line split as far as I could tell – but at least each Senator on that committee is now on record for how they voted. I hope that at least some decent political ads can be cut by the Dems using clips from the broadcast.

    ?????????????

  88. 88.

    cynthia ackerman

    @JMG:

    Dems in AD 20,121?

    If lucky, humans will be brains in jars by then.

    And Baud-in-jar will still be president.

  89. 89.

    jl

    @Humdog: Biggest short to medium run effect is that 13 to 14 million people will drop insurance because they think (right now) that they are healthy and don’t think they need health insurance, or lose access to affordable policies due to market turmoil caused by loss of healthier people from market. That reduces enough individual subsidies to make the GOP tax scam fit into reconciliation. will still be a big hit to Medicare and other parts of budget due to sequestration.

  90. 90.

    Humdog

    @jl: I am struggling to fathom the minds of those 13 million and cannot accept it would be that high a number.

  91. 91.

    Silent no more

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Can’t remember where on Twitter I saw someone saying the endorsements from the pastors were from when Moore declared his run, not more recently. There was some suggestion that he (or someone) had changed some of the words to make it appear more recent. I will go back and try to find it again.

  92. 92.

    jl

    @Humdog: @Humdog: NY and NJ in the 1990s had a system similar enough to do reliable modelling on what will happen to ACA without a mandate. How those state arrived at a similar situation was quite a bit different from PPACA losing mandate, but end result on incentives and effects on insurance markets similar. Initial reduction in insured population, price hikes, then more losses due to more people dropping out of the market.

  96. 96.

    Silent no more

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: Tsar Becket Adams‏Verified account @BecketAdams

    Did you see that story yesterday about 50+ pastors backing Moore? Looks like Moore’s wife took a statement from before the GOP primary, cut some paragraphs and recycled it to Facebook to make it look new.

  97. 97.

    Humdog

    @jl: The study you linked to does indeed state that 13 of the 21 million who have subsidized heath coverage would drop it, but they do not explain it. I never would have thought that over half of the people who now can get insurance do not want it. I figured there were many more who were uncoverable before or who have found they have health needs in the meantime who took advantage of the ACA. Now it appears more than half of those “benefitting” actually hate it!?!?

  98. 98.

    lgerard

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:

    Ding Ding Ding!

    The letter appears to be a version of one already posted on Moore’s campaign website. That letter, posted prior to the primary, contains all the same wording as below but with three extra paragraphs at the top, including a sentence referencing the Aug. 15 vote.

    A pastor from middle Tennessee said he was never asked to sign the original letter.

    So they recycled a previous “letter”, which was dubious to begin with and made it seem as though these people (many of whom can’t really be called “pastors”) still support Roy.

  99. 99.

    KithKanan

    @Humdog: A lot of people hate being forced to wear car seatbelts, and they don’t have to write a check every month to buckle up.

  102. 102.

    pattonbt

    @Yarrow: exactly what I am thinking. I think the bribes (external) will come fast and heavy from the donors “don’t worry if you lose your seat, we’ll give a pittance when you’re voted out”.

  103. 103.

    sm*t cl*de

    @TenguPhule:

    Moore twice argued that the state’s “rape shield” law should not prevent alleged sex offenders from using certain evidence about their underage accusers’ personal lives to discredit them.

    So Moore was preparing the defences for his political career even in 2010.

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