I agree with Cole in the thread downstairs that the initial statement Al Franken issued was weak sauce. This one isn’t. Via Politico:
“The first thing I want to do is apologize: to Leeann, to everyone else who was part of that tour, to everyone who has worked for me, to everyone I represent, and to everyone who counts on me to be an ally and supporter and champion of women. There’s more I want to say, but the first and most important thing—and if it’s the only thing you care to hear, that’s fine—is: I’m sorry.
“I respect women. I don’t respect men who don’t. And the fact that my own actions have given people a good reason to doubt that makes me feel ashamed.
“But I want to say something else, too. Over the last few months, all of us—including and especially men who respect women—have been forced to take a good, hard look at our own actions and think (perhaps, shamefully, for the first time) about how those actions have affected women.
“For instance, that picture. I don’t know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn’t matter. There’s no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn’t funny. It’s completely inappropriate. It’s obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what’s more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.
“Coming from the world of comedy, I’ve told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive. But the intentions behind my actions aren’t the point at all. It’s the impact these jokes had on others that matters. And I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to come to terms with that.
“While I don’t remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women’s experiences.
“I am asking that an ethics investigation be undertaken, and I will gladly cooperate.
“And the truth is, what people think of me in light of this is far less important than what people think of women who continue to come forward to tell their stories. They deserve to be heard, and believed. And they deserve to know that I am their ally and supporter. I have let them down and am committed to making it up to them.”
That sounds more like the Al Franken I’ve always admired, the guy who wrote several books that are on my shelves. My first thought when I read about this incident was that Franken should resign. Honest to Christ, I’m just so fed up with this bullshit!
And, there’s this: It would be rare for a man who behaved the way Tweeden alleges Franken behaved to act out that way only once. Especially a powerful man who gets away with it. If there are other shoes, they’ll drop.
But valued commenter Amir Khalid made a great point here:
Anyhoo, he’s asked the Senate to investigate his conduct. I’m with those here who want to see what that turns up before demanding Franken’s head.
That’s reasonable, and I was too hasty. I do hope Franken turns out to be a good guy who made a stupid mistake. We’ll know soon enough.
Open thread in case the subject was exhausted in the 600+ comments downstairs!
LurkerNoLonger
Let’s get this thread to 1000 comments! I know we can do it if we somehow mention Bernie.
Baud
We were going for a rare double T-Bogg, Betty. Thanks a bunch.
John Cole
That’s a good statement. And Tweeden has accepted his apology:
Good.
ALurkSupreme
Glad to see that people are returning to the realm of sanity here. Some of y’all were beginning to worry me.
Brachiator
@John Cole: I applaud both Franken and Tweeden for their grace and maturity.
Too bad this won’t register on Republicans and other morons.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
That was what he was supposed to say. Good on him. Hopefully that was a one time occurrence.
Wag
I saw the senator’s apology on face book, and that is how an honorable person apologizes. Nothing mealymouthed about it. I’ve started down the road to forgiveness. But but forgetfulness.
Gelfling 545
There is something more fitting in yeah, I was an idiot than well, Mary and Joseph did it.
Mnemosyne
As I was saying in the other thread, I don’t have a large amount of acting experience, but I could see this being a genuine misunderstanding of motives between a professional writer/actor who’s trying to get a rehearsal done in a short amount of time without a lot of resources and an amateur who’s uncomfortable with the speed she’s being asked to work at.
Major Major Major Major
Open thread?
I’m re-reading Stephen King’s writing book while I take a break from my novel, to let the (finished!!) draft cool off. I actually have work today, and was surprised how annoyed I was when one of the tasks came in, not because it’s “beneath me” or whatever (little is!) but because it’s an annoying task. But that is life, and it’s a good sign that things are picking up, however slowly.
Mai.naem.mobile
@John Cole: yes but then she goes on to the ‘well,I don’t know if hes done it to other people,I have somebody I haven’t returned a text who’s saying he did something similar, but I don’t know…..’ FOX garbage trying to distract from Roy Moore.
Gin & Tonic
As I asked downstairs, but not in that 600+ comment thread. To those who are calling for his head: what would you have him do? Resign from the Senate and then what? Pump gas? Work behind the counter at 7-11? Volunteer in a leper colony? Don sackcloth and ashes? What is sufficient penance? Who would decide when and to what degree he’s rehabilitated?
Chip Daniels
By us as a community offering the olive branch of forgiveness to those who sincerely repent, we can make it easier for them to confess and show that growth is possible.
Major Major Major Major
@John Cole: I await your post retracting your post calling for his immediate resignation.
Aleta
Someone made this point on twitter: When a woman remembers an incident vividly but the man doesn’t, it could be because it was not an unusual thing for him to do.
Baud
@Gin & Tonic: No one is calling for his head anymore. We’re one big happy family again.
MisterForkbeard
Much better, and as long as nothing else comes out I’m really, really happy with Franken. Doing this kind of apology is EXACTLY what he should have done first, and he’s using it as a teaching moment, emphasizing that this is a huge problem and that women need to keep coming forward.
It’s also great that the accuser accepted his apology and isn’t asking for anything else to happen to him.
pacem appellant
This is an obvious distraction from talking about Moore and his pedophilia. And it hits us in our Achilles heel, so good job GOP strategists! If the left’s darling Senator isn’t pure, than the right can vote for Moore in good conscience (not really, but equivocating is their trump suit, not ours). Franken took a stupid photo, sincerely apologized, and is making amends. Let’s see Moore and Trump man up. They won’t. The right knows it, and while we fall over ourselves, they sneak a pedophile into the Senate.
(This is the same comment I posted over at the GOS.)
geg6
@Chip Daniels:
Yes, this.
Steve LaBonne
He was 55 at the time and didn’t see the problem with this until outed. I’m afraid I would bet pretty heavily against this being an isolated “mistake”. But I guess we’ll find out.
Amaranthine RBG
Grrr …. grrrr
Baud
@pacem appellant:
You say that as if we only have one.
Dolly Llama
Damn. A TBogg unit plus, and I missed it. Ain’t even going to start going back through all that. Al Franken knows he fucked up, and he’s owning up to it. It’s admirable. I think everyone has shit they did — most of us have a substantial number of such things — that we cringe about now, and they make us thankful we’re nobodies that anybody would care about. Franken knows he’s done, in one way or another, and his “Nobody’s fault but mine” response is as refreshing as it is regrettable.
Roy Moore? That son of a bitch will be Alabama’s next Senator. You watch.
jl
The people who should decide whether to demand his head are the voters of Minnesota. Same as with Moore. IMHO.
I think that should be the rule for elected public office holders and candidates in elections, unless they commit a crime.
And if Moore deserves a criminal investigation (I think he does) then depending on the outcome, that might change Moore’s status as far as I am concerned.
Betty Cracker
@Gin & Tonic: Suppose a half a dozen or more women come forward with credible accounts of similar behavior? Would you be asking the same questions?
satby
And while people were blathering on about this, the House passed their version of the tax bill and it’s on the way to the Senate.
gbear
I feel like throwing up today every time I open a news site or blog. I don’t want to lose my great senator over something this stupid (on his part and on the part of said news sites and blogs).
schrodingers_cat
@Major Major Major Major: It will appear after the retraction of GG and Snowden luv.
Mnemosyne
@Aleta:
It probably was not unusual for Franken to kiss someone as part of a comedy sketch — by that point, he’d been acting for about 20 or 30 years. It probably was very unusual for her to kiss someone as part of a comedy sketch because she is not a professional actor. To me, that in itself could explain why it would stick out in her mind and not his.
Baud
@satby: Expected. The Senate is where all the action will be. Same as with Obamacare repeal.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
I see Roger Goodell is asking for $50 million in salary and a private jet for life as compensation for heading the NFL. I don’t understand why an organization would give anyone that kind of money. Is he really the only person who’s willing and able to do the job? Or do we just think highly paid people should continue to be highly paid?
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: Whew. Thought I’d have to read 600 comments there for a second.
Chip Daniels
This is also why its such a bad idea to make sex scandals a partisan thing.
Its a universal problem, in every party and every orientation.
jl
@Betty Cracker: ” Suppose a half a dozen or more women come forward with credible accounts of similar behavior? Would you be asking the same questions? ”
I’d still leave it up to voters of Minnesota, for my two cents.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
I wonder how many men just gave up all interest in running for office – especially president. We may have two women running against each other by default.
rikyrah
When 6 more accusers come out against Franken and they are 18 or below, call me.
But, this thing of the left falling for the banana in the tailpipe -EVERY PHUCKING TIME – must stop.
Roger Phucking Stone is tweeting about this at midnight, and you can’t SMELL A PHUCKING SETUP.
DAMN.
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: In the kingdom of the blind, the one-legged man something, something … you finish the joke.
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): While this is not a defense of high salaries, anyone in that position will likely ask for millions of dollars in compensation. Add to that the risk of bringing in someone brand new, and I can see why the NFL might go for it or something close to it.
rikyrah
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
Saw that salary demand and just rolled my eyes.
But, IF they have that kind of money to throw at him, then STFU about the protests ‘ hurting’ the NFL.
Get the ENTIRE Phuck Outta Here.
TS
Compared to the behavior of the president*, this appears to be the usual GOP bullsh!t – I’d like the Senate to investigate the president*’s behavior – then I might believe anyone in the gop has a moral compass.
HILFY
According to Wikipedia, Ms. Tweeden currently works for Fox Sports 1, and a radio station. She has appeared on Hannity and other Fox TV programs. Google Images has many pics of her, almost all are what used to be called “soft-core pron”. The poor woman couldn’t afford to buy enough fabric to cover her silicon curves. Nor did she ever learn to sit up straight and keep her knees together.
I’d be disappointed to know that Al Franken could be attracted to a person so unimaginably slutty.
Chip Daniels
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
Notice how corporate boards aren’t demanding to import H1B candidates for the CEO position?
satby
@Betty Cracker: actually, those are good questions. How in this society do we deal with trangressors of all types and when does reasonable punishment start to slip into perpetual damnation. Anyone who has worked with ex-offenders, especially sex offenders, have to evaluate questions like that all the time. If we don’t believe in rehabilitation, what do we do with them?
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
Not speaking for G&T, but if a half-dozen women come forward and tell the same or a very similar story, I will retract my opinion. Right now, I’m willing to believe that this was a genuine misunderstanding on her part during a rehearsal that had to be done under some serious time constraints.
Gin & Tonic
@Betty Cracker: But they haven’t. So I’m asking them now.
HeleninEire
I am all over the place with this. Yes he should resign cuz we should be better. But we need to win. That we want to be better means we lose.
Bring a fucking gun to a fucking gun fight. I’m tired of being the better person.
McConnell blew that shit up with Gorsuch. There was no moral reason to block him. Shut up about legal and constitutional.
Anthony Weiner was my rep in Congress. When he was forced to retire guess what happened? (and be sure this was before we knew the illegal stuff) yeah a fucking Republican won his seat.
I want a fucking gun in a fucking gun fight.
The end. Helen +3
ETA: Yeah its 8:30 here. Dinner and drinks have been consumed.
Humboldtblue
I’m with ya Betty.
In better news, California banned single-use plastic bags at stores in 2016 and it’s having an impact.
Chip Daniels
@HILFY:
Please stop.
Lets not become that.
Baud
@rikyrah:
Seconded.
justawriter
For those who think that Franken resigning would do no harm to Dem chances, I will point out that this is also the same state that sent Michelle Bachman to Congress and put Jesse “The Body” Ventura in the Governor’s office. Neighboring Wisconsin went from Russ Feingold to Tea Party Central in a relative eyeblink. Be careful for what you wish for.
JMG
We will learn soon enough if this was a one-off (unlikely), or not. But it’s in Franken’s best interests to resign, ASAP. The picture isn’t just disgusting, it’s ridiculous looking. He’ll just be twisting in the wind, an icy wind, every day he’s Senator. Fuck it. Say “I can no longer effectively serve my constituents” and move on.
Emma
@pacem appellant: Thank you.
I am so tired today. The pain is worse and the doctor has decided to check me for muscular dystrophy because he swears up and down Tamoxifen couldn’t be causing it. I am within four years of retirement and one vote and a presidential signature from having no possibility to stay in my house — or maybe even my country — when I retire because no insurance company will offer a decent deal to a two-time breast cancer survivor. And all I hear from my so-called allies is “purge the sexual harassers even if we have to destroy our future to do it.”
And don’t try to explain what a woman feels. I am a woman and I have been sexually harassed since I was 10 (early development, anyone?). This woman, however, would prefer that we start thinking strategically instead of morally before what is left of the United States goes down the corporate black hole. I would prefer not to live in a Bladerunner world. If that offends your blessed purity, so be it.
Chip Daniels
I have video of Al Franken cruelly laughing while a guy is sodomized by a gorilla.
Shantanu Saha
Calling for an ethics investigation on himself is smart of Franken. If McConnell follows through (as he will be pressured to do), he will have no defense against calling an investigation of Moore, who is much slimier.
MaryL
@Mnemosyne: That doesn’t explain the picture, though. I’m pleased with his apology. It was exactly what I needed to hear. But that photo is bad and can’t be explained away as a misunderstanding.
satby
@Baud: thirded. And out, since the ridiculous demands for him to resign are starting again.
We believe in due process for everyone but members of our team, I guess.
Baud
@satby: I was thinking something along these lines also.
No Drought No More
This is my final word on the boorish behavior that U.S. senator Al Franken has now copped to, as he damn well should have..
It’s actually a question to the throw in the teeth of any-and-all republicans inclined to cite it at the Thanksgiving table: “how many 14 year old girls did Franken attempt to rape [asshole]”?* But don’t stop. At that point, unload on Trump as well, by reciting the allegations of some of the women who courageously stepped forward to confront him, too, and moreover did it when it really counted, and for the good of the country (which stupidly ignored them). But keep it short and sweet, because god knows you could talk about those assaults all the way to the pumpkin pie.
*(Personally, I’d go with “asshole”, but that’s a decision best left to the discretion of the individual).
Major Major Major Major
@HILFY: This comment is horrible and you should be ashamed of yourself.
jl
In general, I think the question of what we are supposed to think or do about these scandals and accusations, in real time, as the information develops, is misplaced.
I think there should be a lot more, at least an order of magnitude more, effort put into ensuring that anyone who comes forward with charges in good faith is protected. Whether they turn out to be what they seem at first or not, or ‘true’ in someone’s opinion is secondary, the ‘good faith’ is key.
There should be less effort in judging the party or parties until all the information is in. And even then, its just everyone’s opinion how bad it is or what should be done, except , for elected political figures, whatever power the accused’s institution has to sanction them through some formal process, or what the voters think at the next election. I think that is just facing the facts of the matter.
Until you get to criminal behavior.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Emma:
Yeah, I’m on your side Emma. When Republicans put on their hair shirts about their behavior, I’ll ask for Al to don his. This is war, and we need all hands on deck. Apology was given and accepted, and now everyone back to work. I have a bad feeling about the Senate and this tax bill.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Do you recognize that nym? I don’t. I assume troll.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Me too. This self flagellation routine by “our” side is too much to bear.
Major Major Major Major
@JMG:
Yeah, that pic of him in diapers with the giant teddy bear sure sank his chances too.
@Baud: I don’t either, but I also don’t pie on first post.
Josie
@rikyrah: Truth in a nutshell.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: If you take her account at face value, I’m not following the logic of how a misunderstanding related to time constraints explains it.
SatanicPanic
@justawriter: Ventura is embarrassing, but states (usually) don’t send reps to the House, districts do.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I think Senator Franken as an excellent idea, investigate Franken, investigate any congress member accused of sexual misconduct.
raven
When Hope ran his USO shows he’d trot Ann Margaret’, Joey Heatherton or Raquel Welch out and say “this is to remind you what you are fighting for”.
Brachiator
@jl:
The court of public opinion demands an immediate verdict with as few facts as possible.
HILFY
@Mai.naem.mobile: Doesn’t anyone notice that Tweeden works for Fox Sports 1 and has appeared on Hannity and others? Do you believe everything right wingers throw out to “dirty up” good people? Hook, line and sinker, are you?
Will Ms.Tweeden be on Hannity tonite?
HeleninEire
@Chip Daniels: Shut up. You bore me.
Also you are new here. Shut up.
Mnemosyne
@MaryL:
The photo is a prank, because he’s clearly not actually touching her and is mugging for the camera. It’s a childish, stupid prank (like when frat boys draw dicks on their friends’ faces when they’re passed out), but it’s not an assault.
TenguPhule
@John Cole: My money is on a nothing burger. The facts are not going to go against him. Guilty people don’t usually ask for themselves to be examined.
But the fucking myth of Al Franken, Serial Rapist Democrat, will be sung for years.
jl
@rikyrah: I agree with that too. I think it ties into my long winded comment, in terms of due diligence in not letting these accusations play havoc when they fall into the hands of cynical manipulators.
Joyce H
@Dolly Llama:
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. And while all the major media is swarming Alabama, I hope they can spare one or two investigative reporters from the Good Old Days At Gadsden Mall beat to look into Moore’s finances. Just from what is publicly known about that spectacularly hinky ‘charity’ Moore set up to pay him a generous salary, I’d think he was ripe for some sort of fraud charges, and the charity and Moore’s wife as well. And those issues wouldn’t run into any statute of limitations of ‘it was all a long time ago’ defenses.
I’d never paid much attention to Moore before this – I’d heard of him before, of course, and all the Ten Commandments blather. It didn’t surprise me to learn that the guy is a grifter, but I have been frankly astonished at what a STUPID grifter he is. The fact that his grift has been so lucrative for so long, and him being such a dolt – man, that really tells you something about the intellectual firepower of his marks, doesn’t it?
trollhattan
Before the Tehama County slaughter is wiped from the news I’ll relate something I heard this morning. The lunatic shooter wasn’t allowed to have firearms due to his many ongoing legal entanglements (a stabbing charge, restraining order, etc.) and the county sheriff is basically shrugging and saying they aren’t equipped or staffed to make home checks.
By contrast, another county–I think it was Alameda–has a deputy assigned full time to enforce gun bans on people with restraining orders. I don’t remember the confiscation count (quite a lot) but it has resulted in NO homicides committed by those individuals. We need this and we need resources to make this work for everybody, regardless of how poor the area.
SatanicPanic
@Gin & Tonic: Al Franken is 66 years old. Are we supposed to be worried about the employment prospects of a wealthy man who’s eligible for Social Security?
texasboyshaun
@Amaranthine RBG: I discovered how to use the pie filter, and it makes reading your comments so much more enjoyable. Some of them are downright hysterical!
trollhattan
@Joyce H:
I’d add the likelihood of some whopping judicial misconduct spanning four decades.
TenguPhule
@Baud: I’d like mine rare, not medium well done.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: I would prefer my 500-plus comment threads to be done well, personally.
schrodingers_cat
OT: Since I have said all that I want to about this idiocy on the other thread.
Why do the homes of all DIY bloggers look the same. Even their blogs have similar WP themes.
TenguPhule
@Aleta:
Or because it didn’t happen.
Again, aside from the photo in question, her credibility is questionable, to be polite.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
They needed to rehearse the kiss for the sketch. She was balking at rehearsing the kiss at all. He decided to just do the kiss to break the ice and move on with the rehearsal rather than continue getting hung up on that one part of the scene, but he was impatient about it and that freaked her out.
For me, that’s what muddies it as a claim that it was purposeful sexual assault and makes me think that it could have been a genuine misunderstanding of his motives on her part. It’s dumb that actors and directors sometimes think that throwing the person who balks at something into the situation will get them over their worries about it, but it’s not uncommon.
Baud
OT: I got an email from Hillary that her group is now promoting Swing Left. Aren’t there Juicers involved with them?
different-church-lady
Oh, fine, sabotage our chance at a double TBogg…
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker: We’ll answer that if that actually happens, not before.
Major Major Major Major
@schrodingers_cat: Good wordpress themes are few and far between, on the free/plus tier at least. You have to get into self-hosting shenanigans before you get to the good stuff.
As for their actual houses, I have no idea.
TenguPhule
@Chip Daniels: Pedophilia is not a sex scandal. Its a fucking crime.
germy
Goddammit, it’s unfair. Unfair I tell you.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Well played.
debit
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Yeah, I think that an investigation may open doors Franken’s GOP colleagues may prefer to remain closed. No guy in that position of power is lily white. Not a single one. Well, maybe Paul Wellstone was.
As one of Franken’s constituents, I’m satisfied with this statement and apology, and will wait and see what the investigation reveals. In the meantime, I sent him a note of support and encouragement.
trollhattan
@Major Major Major Major:
I’ve had 500-threadcount sheets and found them overpriced for what they deliver.
StringOnAStick
@raven: Thanks for pointing that out. Franken was coming off a USO tour for a bunch of deployed service people, likely mostly men. Having worked in at male dominated field for the first part of my working career, sexual “jokes” like this stuff were unfortunately part of the whole scene and somehow I suspect the zeitgeist in a war zone is even more so.
Until others come forward, I am going to accept the Senator’s apology and say that asking to be investigated was his most appropriate response. Until the mango moron resigns for what we know is worse behavior and while the R party is backing an obvious and well-documented pedophile, I’m not going to call for Franken’s resignation.
germy
justawriter
@SatanicPanic: What I was saying is contrary to what was said in the other thread, Minnesota is very purple with some very big deep red stains.
schrodingers_cat
@Major Major Major Major: No, the blogs seem to be self hosted. Everything is pastel, and the writing is cutesy. Homes are predominantly white and blue. I was bored and was looking for some ideas for my house.
Josie
@Baud: Yes. They are involved in a district next to mine. They have done a ton of research and are working to reach out to voters in that district. I have donate small amounts of money to them a couple of times and have not been inundated with fundraising emails as with some groups. I think they are the real deal.
Gin & Tonic
@SatanicPanic: The question was not an economic one. I’m sure he can live comfortably. But presuming he doesn’t want to spend the rest of his days sitting on his porch, what would those calling for his resignation permit him to do?
Patricia Kayden
@John Cole: Yes, that’s very good to hear. He gave a sincere, heartfelt apology where he accepted 100% of the blame for his behavior. Kudos to him for getting the apology right.
Doug R
There’s afloating out there on the interwebs that it was a gag, she was pretending to be dead and wanted Al to revive her. Kinda hard to do that when you’re not touching someone.
Betty Cracker
@Gin & Tonic: We’ll wait for the facts to come in on Franken. But as a hypothetical issue, if a person has behaved in such a way as to indicate he doesn’t fully acknowledge the humanity of half his constituents, I don’t want him representing me. There are deal-breakers for me — a small number of them, but absolute. Racism, sexism, homophobia and xenophobia are among them.
different-church-lady
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
The job of being The Magnificent, Infallible Rodger Goodell? Yes, he is the only on capable of doing it.
SatanicPanic
@justawriter: Sure, but who thinks the Democratic governor is going to replace Franken with a Republican if Franken steps down? We’re basically arguing over whether or not Franken is a better chance of being elected in 2020 vs. a generic Democrat. I’m going with generic Democrat, but YMMV.
Served
It’s all a mess and this entire series of sexual harassment and assault revelations across all class boundaries and industries, is a long overdue shaking of our society’s power structure.
It’s one of many that are going on, some bad, some good. It’s pretty overwhelming to be honest.
Loch in kop
@HILFY: Wow, that’s shitty
raven
@StringOnAStick: I suspect there were a lot more women troops in the 2nd Gulf War, in the Nam it was just nurses and donut dollies.
Patricia Kayden
@Gin & Tonic: Franken may not have to resign. His constituents, like his victim, may accept his apology and move on.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
But is there a time limit in your view? I mean, Robert Byrd was in the Klan as the right likes to point out, but I understand that he persuaded enough people that he had reformed himself.
trollhattan
@debit:
What are you, some kind of grownup? :-P
I’m back to baiting Roy Moore with American Girl dolls. “Whoa, hellllo there Felicity!”
different-church-lady
I’m calling either false flag or Poe’s Law at #41
SatanicPanic
@Gin & Tonic: Is this really the most important thing here? Should we wring our hands about what Louis CK is going to do with the rest of his life? How about former President GHW Bush? How about that New Republic editor?
TenguPhule
@Gin & Tonic: In the kingdom of the blind the one legged man who has fallen over is just another hole in the ground.
guachi
Huh.
And to think three hours ago I was saying most of you were over reacting.
rikyrah
@HeleninEire:
Go Helen!!!!
ChrisH
I’m just tired of the world today. The Franken shit comes to light and the radio reminds me about how Aung San Su Chi’s inaction and possibly tacit support of Rohinga genocide. Day is just reminding me how fucked up and bullshit everything is and always has been, and always will be.
Major Major Major Major
@Served: we’re definitely living through the end of the 20th century (much as WW1 was the end of the long 19th).
different-church-lady
Gonna repeat this from the TBogg: it was a fuckin’ USO sketch, not the National Theater Company doing something by Tennessee Williams. The authentic dramatic impact of a kiss in that context is immaterial and unnecessary. Harping on the “need” for rehearsal is B.S.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
And if it turns out to have been a misunderstanding on her part and/or an overly aggressive acting choice on his part … ?
debit
@trollhattan: “How YOU doin’?”
randy khan
I don’t know whether this will turn out to be an isolated incident or not. If it is, though, this is exactly how it should be addressed.
Having read his book over the summer, one thing that Franken is quite good at is acknowledging his mistakes and trying to learn from them. (One of the funniest bits in the book is about how his staff told him he was supposed to blame *them* for most of his mistakes after to took the blame for one of his own errors.) This seems like an example.
jl
@Gin & Tonic: ” what would those calling for his resignation permit him to do? ”
I think this is a real issue for these kinds of cases. A person can commit a very serious crime, go through legal process, be found guilty, do his or her time. Then, at least in the ye goode olde dayes if not now, be rehabilitated and rejoin society (unless the crime were really heinous or the person should evidence that they had no remorse and could not be rehabilitated, but there is a process for those decisions as well).
There is an element of mob rule when we insist we all have to pass perfect infallible nearly instant justice whenever accusations come out.
And as, rikyrah suggested, mob rule can be manipulated.
So far, seems like the fuss is throwing Franken in with the likes of Moore, Cosby, O’Reilly, Weinstein, Ailes, Spacey, etc.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Limit for Ds is t tends to minus infinity. You have to pure like a washed grain of rice, like an innocent babe, the day you were born.
Rs can do everything short of murder.
*According to our most esteemed progressive betters.
Gin & Tonic
@SatanicPanic: Well, when they are the subject of a massive thread calling for immediate beheading, I may weigh in. But today’s subject is Al Franken, so I’ll comment on Al Franken.
Amir Khalid
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
US$50 mil a year? I think a more reasonable salary expectation would be about 1% of that.
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
I disagree, but as I said, I only have a pretty small amount of amateur acting experience. I’m going by the stories my actor friends have told me and extrapolating from there.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady: Again, from the Tbogg, let’s have someone either put up video of the sketch in question or describe the whole thing, not this selective piecemeal bullshit.
rikyrah
Grassley rips up ‘blue slip’ for a pair of Trump court picks
11/16/2017 03:30 PM EST
Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley is burning the blue slip for some judicial nominees.
The Iowa Republican will announce later Thursday that he is going ahead with a confirmation hearing for a nominee to the powerful appellate courts despite the objections of a Democrat who had been blocking the nomination for months.
The move will likely escalate the judicial wars in the Senate.
Grassley says he has scheduled hearings for David Stras, a nominee to the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.), Stras’ home-state senator, said earlier this year that he would not return the so-called blue slip for Stras because of his conservative ideology.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/16/chuck-grassley-trump-court-picks-245367
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: I pass that test!
SatanicPanic
@different-church-lady: “I was in a hurry and this sketch was so important, I just had to stick my tongue in your mouth”
Uh OK
TenguPhule
@rikyrah: IOKIYAR.
But we have to re-fight the purity wars again.
Millard Filmore
@Mnemosyne:
If it made her want to wretch and wash her mouth out with soap then it was beyond an acting kiss. It sounds more like a wet sloppy take-abusive-advantage thing. I hear tell that actors know how to fake kisses.
Baud
@TenguPhule: I don’t like calling this purity. It mixes up ideological and behaviorial expectations.
SatanicPanic
@Gin & Tonic: No one is calling for him to be beheaded on his way out of the Senate. At worst he’ll be an unemployed man at the age most of us want to retire anyway. And I’m sure the man’s not broke.
Nelle
@Emma: Thanks for writing this. As I’ve noted before, the guy who assaulted me is in prison for life as a sexually violent predator. There is a scale of vile behavior. This manipulated outrage (manipulated by the purists on the left and the laughers and distractors on the right) in the face of what is happening and the real world consequences right now, today, in Congress, leaves me speechless. How many of these comments are trolls, getting people more and more wound up? How many have called their Congress folks today? (Five calls from this house today; four yesterday; email correspondence also.)
I
jl
@Baud: ” I pass that test! ”
Ha! BS. As if you can even remember what happens at your campaign rallies.
MattF
Back when Strauss-Kahn was in the news for his ‘misbehavior’, my old friend Eileen was in town and brought it up. I said, “It’s not the first time he’s done this.” Eileen (who is smart and observant) said “You know, every heterosexual man I’ve talked to about this has said the same thing.”
So, this is my problem. I guess it’s not completely impossible that it was really a single isolated incident. But that’s not the way these things happen in-real-life. I’m not insisting that Franken resign– but I would not be surprised if there are other incidents.
TenguPhule
@Baud:
Isn’t that what’s happening here?
Gin & Tonic
@SatanicPanic: So your position is he should resign his seat and never be gainfully employed again. Ok, then.
justawriter
Sigh. It’s already getting stupider. A headline on the Tech and Culture blog Boing Boing (that is usually much better than this: Al Franken admits groping sleeping soldier
jl
@TenguPhule: Baud 2020! is ideologically opposed to throwing up his beer, but behaviorally…? Different.
different-church-lady
@SatanicPanic:
Yes, but it’s only 4 o’clock on the east coast…
Baud
@TenguPhule: No. Franken isn’t being criticised for his policy view, but his behavior. That’s different from the usual purity that refuses to support a candidate that only goes 95% of the way on policy.
LurkerNoLonger
@germy: Boy that guy’s tweets sound more and more like a southern-fried Trump.
geg6
@JMG:
I’m guessing you never saw Franken when he was on SNL. If you had, you wouldn’t type such stupidity.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: So again, assuming for the moment her account is accurate, ramming his tongue down her throat was just actor for “loosen up”? Nope, not buying that.
@Baud: That’s a good question. I don’t really know more than the outlines of Byrd’s story, but from what I understand, he was a Klansman in his 20s and had thoroughly repented of it for decades when Republicans were using it to beat Democrats. I wouldn’t blame a black person for looking at him side-eyed even then, though. I do understand that times and mores change over decades, and Byrd lived long enough to see them change around him.
trollhattan
@debit:
‘bama must have hundreds of malls, and Georgia twaace as many, nomsayn’?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@debit:
One can only dream they take the bait.
guachi
@Mnemosyne:
I’ve had the pleasure to be on the set of a comedy show while it’s being filmed. It’s a tremendous amount go-go-go in between doing nothing.
I saw Mark Hamill roll in still with his Star Wars beard, get it all shaved off, read the script, get into character, and go in a very short period of time. It’s a pace I could see that an amateur would be unable to handle without some help.
Major Major Major Major
@justawriter: Boing Boing has been pretty shitty of late the times I’ve been there.
SatanicPanic
@Gin & Tonic: No. I said that in light of his age and net worth it’s not something anyone should be unduly concerned about. If he finds a job, great, if not, then not, I don’t care.
hellslittlestangel
I’m reserving judgement, though it’s going to be hard for me to be objective about this. I have had great respect for Al Franken. Also, I expect gross lapses of judgement and taste from comedians.
SatanicPanic
@different-church-lady: it’s BJ and no one has even suggested tumbrels! Whatever happens he’s getting off easy
catclub
@Joyce H:
Mostly lost in the tornado of sex coverage. But I fully agree with your assessment.
TS
@rikyrah: Exactly, why do dems ALWAYS think the worst about themselves and talk eternally about their own failings. Compared to the GOP they are angels – Al Franken was working on a comedy show – nothing was hidden – he didn’t force himself on anyone – I am so confused as to why this is taking up multiple threads on BJ
This sh!t is what got trump elected.
Chief Oshkosh
Huh. So Roger Stone is involved in this.
TenguPhule
@Baud: Wait, that’s only supposed to be limited to Franken?
germy
@Major Major Major Major: I noticed the same thing.
I don’t know if I’ve changed or they’ve changed. I used to enjoy reading them.
They seem to be more of a “Buy this!” “Buy that!” place than they used to be.
But lately I’m seeing more typos, more misleading stories, etc.
jl
@Baud: Serious question: how far should we go on behavior before we righteous ones exile someone else forever, and ever. What is the standard of behavioral purity? 99.9% (hell, we who judge can all pass that, right?), 99%? 95%?
I wonder whether the demand for instant judgment by mob rule is somehow compensating for that fact that, for the most part, no protection for vast majority of those who come forth with allegations made in good faith. And nothing seems to be done about it.
How much condemnation has the AL GOP gotten, or Fox News, for their depraved and disgraceful treatment of the people coming forward on Moore? Why no one taking on the disgraceful situation of procedure for accusations of harassment in Congress?
But fixing that is hard. Judging an individual case from a distance is easy.
Edit: This is general vent, not aimed at Baud 2020!
Gin & Tonic
@SatanicPanic:
And what neither you nor anyone else calling for his immediate resignation has answered is, what job would you find it morally permissible for him to hold? US Senator seems to be out. Is every elective office out? Can he sit on the Minnetonka School Board? Can he be US Ambassador to the UN under President Harris? Can he write jokes for SNL? Can he ever run for US Senate from Minnesota again? When, in your view, will he be sufficiently rehabilitated for his transgression?
geg6
@SatanicPanic:
Since Franken is a senator, he has to win the whole state.
Villago Delenda Est
@ALurkSupreme: This does not apply to the intellectually very confused and morally stunted Amaranthine RBG.
Baud
@TenguPhule: No. I just think it’s useful to examine as distinct questions (1) whether a person is ideologically close enough to support and (2) whether a person conducts himself or herself in a decent enough manner for us to support. The current discussion about Franken is about question (2).
guachi
@hellslittlestangel:
It’s a hazard of the job where the best jokes push the boundaries. Punching up is funny. Punching down isn’t.
From what you can actually see in the picture, it’s crude but at the level of juvenile prankish behavior. I’ve seen many people equate it to or imply that it’s something particular to men. This is ridiculous.
rp
@justawriter: Boing Boing is awful.
Doug R
Roger Stone saw this one coming.
HILFY
@Major Major Major Major: What does “credible accusation” mean to you? Do you believe every scurrilous insult the Right throws at the Democratst? Is every Democrat instantly guilty, without any examination of fact or evidence? Has the Right-wing noise machine ever put forward one of their own to try to drag us down”?
Have Fox News employees ever lied about Liberals, Progressives, Democrats?
Is it “horrible” to suggest that a Fox News employee who demonstrably uses her body to pursue her career might be lying about an encounter with a comedian?
Baud
@jl: Yeah, there’s obviously no mathematical formula for these things.
TenguPhule
@Baud: I was referring to how we seem to be racing away at tearing each other apart over this. The fucking Republicans are united on a fucking Tax abomination and we’re splintering at what could be the worst possible moment.
Villago Delenda Est
@Chip Daniels: Yeah, I’ve seen that too.
He and Al Davis should be drawn and quartered for that.
quakerinabasement
“But the intentions behind my actions aren’t the point at all. It’s the impact [they] had on others that matters.”
Carve that in stone and make it the 11th Commandment.
debit
@HILFY:
Yes.
ETA: There’s a fucking picture. And thanks for slut shaming! That’s always so helpful.
Betty Cracker
@TS:
YAY! Roll up the carpet and turn out the lights, folks. Thread’s over.
SatanicPanic
@Gin & Tonic: I think your question is stupid and not something we should be concerned with.
Aleta
@TenguPhule: –Or because it didn’t happen.–
Sure. That should be kept in mind. As well as the alternatives. “Didn’t happen” has always been the default assumption if he doesn’t remember, unless the woman has higher status.
“It wasn’t remarkable to him” is an alternative to “he’s lying if he says he doesn’t remember.” It relates to the idea of harm that passes w/o comment and continues because of an environment.
Like Franken (who I admire and cheer for and donated to) thinking “comedy: this is funny” while the people around him are thinking “well, showbiz” or “he (or the show) is more important than my reaction.” There are other examples of those kind of jokes being normal for him back them.
Mai.naem.mobile
@HILFY: several people pointed that out in the Tbogg thread. I watched her statement. I like watching people to see if they’re lying. I don’t claim to be an expert or anything,its just something I find fascinating. Anyhow,she spoke fast and IMHO people who speak fast are usually lying. Corey Lewandowski was speaking real fast when he was asked on some MSNBC show(Chuck Todd?) about the Russian stuff. Stuff that he had to walk back a few days later.
TenguPhule
And now we know why the rats are fucking with us.
Senate judiciary panel: Kushner had contacts about WikiLeaks, Russian overtures he did not disclose
The noose tightens.
Baud
@TenguPhule: We are always splintered. It’s our steady state.
Major Major Major Major
@HILFY:
I’ve bolded the part that is “horrible” since you seem to be having trouble understanding it.
Gin & Tonic
@SatanicPanic: Ok, then.
SatanicPanic
@geg6: I know that. I was saying “this state elected Bachmann to the House therefore they might elect a crazy Republican to the Senate” doesn’t follow.
hueyplong
Franken’s second statement is very encouraging, and Tweeden’s statement, coming so quickly after Franken’s, is even more encouraging. Her issuing that while working for a Fox entity is more encouraging still.
The bipartisan agreement (adopted by Franken himself) to hold an ethics committee hearing means that both excuse makers and purity scolds can be told to wait for things to play out, secure in the knowledge that it won’t be swept under the rug, and that the accuser isn’t thirsting for instant justice– she has accepted his apology. It’s clear there was at least one other person in the room (the one who took the picture). Maybe we’ll hear from that person.
Yes, Franken got sufficiently contrite after outed, and on the second try, but we’ve got a pretty clear example before us of how good Franken’s stance can look by comparison.
Millard Filmore
@Humboldtblue:
I’ve been saving all my plastic bags for the previous 5 years, using them for trash and dirty cat litter. I will need to BUY some bags soon.
TenguPhule
@Baud:
I thought our steady state is quantum.
You can know where we are or how fast we’re going, but never both at the same time.
Chip Daniels
@germy:
Half of Boing Boing seems to be
“Hey, this wireless net-enabled gadget is so effing cool you gotta get one!”
and the other half is
“Woah, our wireless net-enabled gadgets are invading our privacy!”
Ruckus
That was a reasonable statement. Calling for an ethics investigation is about 10,000% better than anyone else has done in Congress.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: Totally agree.
hellslittlestangel
@guachi: When I saw the picture, I immediately thought, very typical teenage jerkoffery. But I don’t know if that will cut it as an excuse for a man in his fifties.
Baud
@TenguPhule: I never know either.
Major Major Major Major
@Chip Daniels: Heh, good summary.
Bill
Just so we are clear, that picture shows a sitting US senator committing sexual assault on a sleeping woman. (For those arguing the picture doesn’t show him touching her, you must be looking at a different picture than I am. His right hand is on her breast.) This is very strong evidence of a crime. However unlikely it is that it might be charged. (Even without statute of limitation problems.) She’s said it was without her consent.
I don’t understand what it is we are waiting for an investigation to reveal.
SatanicPanic
@Gin & Tonic: Sorry, I was being rude. I just don’t think the question is very important. My apologies.
Mai.naem.mobile
@Aleta: I believe Franken said he doesn’t remember it the way she does,not that he doesn’t remember it. I don’t want to come across as some big Franken defender but I used to listen to Franken on Air America around 03-06ish. He ran in 08. He was already concerned about stuff coming out from his SNL days(people had gone after Jim Webb for R rated stuff in his books.) There were rumors of Franken running for a while so it makes me think he wouldn’t pull crap like this in 06, pretty close to before he was running.
hellslittlestangel
What statement is that?
FlipYrWhig
@Bill: I’m pretty sure the hand is hovering in the air in the universal comedic “honk honk” breast pantomime gesture.
Reposting from the now-defunct mondo-long thread:
Ya know what, I wouldn’t be surprised if the nature of the photo was specifically referring back to the earlier kiss and supposed to be viewed as something like “You thought I was making you uncomfortable before? Just wait till you see what I got up to later!” I don’t know if that’s mitigating or aggravating, though.
Lee
When the Trumpsters ask for Franken’s resignation, just quip back ‘Should Trump resign as well?’
debit
@Bill: Perspective. He was not touching her. Argue whether him miming groping her was inappropriate, or his kissing her against her will was permissible for “rehearsal” purposes, but it’s clear he was not touching her.
hueyplong
@Bill: I imagine there are many things you don’t understand.
Lee
@Bill:
You’ve never worn body armor & that’s the joke of the staged photo.
WarMunchkin
It’s exhausting to make excuses for men every single time, and I don’t see how that’s different because he has a (D) after his name. In the last six hours I’ve heard
* It was just a joke
* He didn’t mean it
* He’s actually a nice guy
* Do you really want to ruin his life?
* He’s a comedian, what did she expect?
from Democrats!
Franken is entirely entitled to atonement, remorse and the process of making amends for his actions as a comedian. He can do that outside of public office just fine. He can have a healthy life as a remorseful, reformed private citizen who can support women’s rights in that capacity.
WaterGirl
@HeleninEire: I think Major Major Major Major got it right on the other thread:
Much ado about nothing.
ruemara
I really wonder about the world most of you live in where this comes as a huge surprise. I’d be more surprised if something like this had never occurred. Trust me, I want to live where you were, but I’ve never had that option. Every man you respect and admire has done something rapey, inappropriate, foul and dehumanizing to a woman. Every one. Of course he doesn’t remember. It’s not big enough for a man to remember. It affects the woman,the man has never even considered that it’s out of bounds. Jesus, how many of you still admire Neal DeGrasse Tyson? And yes, for a man in his 50’s, it most certainly is jerkoff behaviour he’s capable of. If he’s never heard that it shouldn’t happen. Really, I want your world.
germy
Sylvester Stallone and His Former Bodyguard Accused of Sexually Assaulting a 16-Year-Old Girl in 1986
Gin & Tonic
@SatanicPanic: Accepted. I just think in the environment that it appears we are in now, the question of satisfactory rehabilitation for past transgressions is a huge one that is being elided.
jl
@Bill: Franken was elected in 2008, and this happened in 2006. So your statement is ambiguous.
I don’t think your services are needed or will be useful for an investigation, which is always needed before formal sanctions which a random ill defined group of people is always fit to impose on an elected office, in matters such as these.
Thanks you for your service, You are excused.
TenguPhule
@WarMunchkin: Let’s have some independent verification before rushing to condemn on the basis of a FOX news propagandist.
Or is that too impure for you?
rp
@Bill: No, it doesn’t. I don’t want to get into a whole kerning argument, but the shadows under his fingers from the flash make it obvious that he’s not touching her.
debit
@debit: And since I don’t have permission to edit my own comment, one more point: He wasn’t a senator then. I do happen to know of one person who routinely grabbed and groped women while in office. Norm Coleman, GOP. Shall we investigate him too?
Jeffro
@Major Major Major Major: That’s a good, useful book! He’d be fun to have as a writing prof.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@hueyplong: I don’t understand the relationship between the picture and the kiss. Well, I guess I do. They suggest Franken couldn’t keep his hands and other body parts to himself. But they involve two different women, right? Was the picture taken at the same time the kiss happened?
I admit I haven’t read through all the twists and turns here, so I may be way off.
guachi
@hellslittlestangel:
For better or worse, people who make people laugh for a living probably always have to be able to easily act juvenile. The times I’ve interacted with comedians it’s like they’re on another plane of goofiness. This just went into the realm of tasteless. If the two knew each other really well, like they were good friends, it’d be far more acceptable. But for someone whom you just met for a USO tour, it isn’t. Even if he didn’t actually touch her breasts.
mai naem mobile
@Doug R: he also saw the Elliot Spitzer stuff coming.
The Moar You Know
@hueyplong: One thing I know damn well it understands is Russian. Native speaker.
TenguPhule
@ruemara:
Sorry, now this is going into crazy world.
Jeffro
@rikyrah: Seconded here, rikyrah.
TenguPhule
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): The forced kiss is in dispute. Franken says he doesn’t remember her story that way. How he remembers it has not been said yet.
Joe Falco
@HILFY: yes, it’s horrible.
geg6
@SatanicPanic:
Governor Wrestler pretty much disposes of your argument quite neatly.
TenguPhule
@debit: Why hasn’t he been investigated yet?
WaterGirl
@satby: @Baud: Very disappointed in all these calls for him to step down over a nothing burger. It’s shocking to see so much of that here on BJ because I like to think that we’re a pretty smart group.
Times change and norms change – the guy made a very unfunny skit over a decade ago and people want to call it sexual assault? And, no, I’m not talking about rape or molesting 14-year old girls, that being wrong is timeless.
LurkerNoLonger
Only 215 comments so far. Very disappointing. We’re never going to make it to a 1000 at this rate.
Major Major Major Major
@Jeffro: I think he should run for senate!
TenguPhule
And call your Senators to oppose the Republican Tax Abomination.
/This has been a public service announcement since our front pagers seem to be busy chasing squirrels today
Robin Gittelman
@HeleninEire: Amen to that! Anthony was my congressman too (Queens or Brooklyn?) and the WHOLE thing pissed me off.
trollhattan
@Bill: Franken wasn’t a senator in 2006.
TenguPhule
@WaterGirl:
You haven’t been here very long, have you?
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@TenguPhule: That much I got. How does the picture fit in?
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne:
How do people not see this?
sharl
OT:
Major Major Major Major
@sharl: I blame Hillary.
TenguPhule
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): No context for it other then she apparently had it and provided it for use for the story.
For all we know, she was posing for it deliberately. Or it could be a prank. Or it could be the prologue to an actual groping.
Perhaps the investigation will make things clearer.
D58826
from the nyt
I can’t find Ezra Klein’s Vox post but he summarized the new tax bill as the GOP weaponize the tax code to reward rich friends and screw everyone else, esp. the liberal elites, colleges, blue states, etc.
Just a few odds and ends from twitter and we are obsessing about a stupid photo in which Franken touched nothing, that was taken 15 years ago before he was a Senator.
SatanicPanic
@geg6: Jesse is a crank but not in the same sense that Bachmann is and he’s also famous. I mean, this is like arguing that Dianne Feinstein might be replaced by a Republican because California has Devin Nunes in the House and elected Arnold Schwarzenegger governor. It might be more likely in MN, but Ventura or Bachmann aren’t good evidence of that.
At any rate, is gropey picture Franken more or less likely to win reelection than some other Democrat? I lean towards less.
Suzanne
@Gin & Tonic:
In general, I am a fan of 1) immediately apologizing prior to 2) disappearing for a while, while 3) working on oneself and simultaneously 4) doing good things for others, then 5) returning to the public eye with little fanfare.
notoriousJRT
I am glad to read this. I have felt sick and sad all morning – in part because I was questioning my own resistance to thinking immediately that Franken should resign due to this incident. It reminded me that I never found Franken particularly funny as a comedian, but I liked him as a senator. It reminded me that every day women “put up” with a lot of shitty / inappropriate / discomforting behavior from men who should know better. WHY don’t they know better? I tried to think of something that women routinely do to men that is equivalent. This would be something experienced universally by men by women in every walk of their lives. Alas, since I am not a man, I could not think of thing. What is it that we regularly do that makes you feel violated and/or fearful yet you say nothing to be a “good sport” or to keep your job, or protect your career? It is so infuriating to think about it.
D58826
@LurkerNoLonger: can we merge threads with the earlier one. Should get cllose to 1000
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@TenguPhule: So it’s Tweeden in the picture?
Major Major Major Major
Completely unsurprisingly, the only person on my FB who’s calling for Franken’s resignation is the same person who is the only one regularly calling for Pelosi’s.
mike in dc
We as a society are going to need a set of principles related to this stuff, going forward:
1. Take the allegations seriously.
2. Accusers should be believed*(* unless and until credible information impeaching their credibility emerges)
3. The accused has an opportunity to respond
4. Apologies should be believed*
5. The consequences for the accused should be proportional and equitable, and due process of some sort should be appropriate in many circumstances
6. We should be capable of distinguishing between consensual and nonconsensual activity, between inappropriate comments and inappropriate behavior, and between inappropriate behavior and serious criminal behavior
7. Neither optics nor political considerations should affect the above principles
Feel free to add as they occur to you.
Joe Falco
@sharl: the thing all those protesters said would happen if the pipeline was built happened. This is my shocked face. :I
WaterGirl
@Patricia Kayden: His “victim”? All these comments are making me crazy. At worst he pushed for a rehearsal of a kiss for a skit and made an error in judgment in thinking that whole pretend to touch her boobs thing was funny. Back then I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t have been seen as disrespectful, just not funny.
The Fat Kate Middleton
@Emma: Totally agree with your last statement in your post (and that of HeleninEire)). Just wanted to commiserate with you – I’m also dealing with medication related to breast cancer. Being post-menopausal, I can’t take tamoxifen, but the alternative is wearing me down. Almost a ten months now of intense fatigue, bone and muscle pain, multiple UTIs, and IBD. My doctor first thought it might be Parkinson’s on top of everything else, but cancelled out that possibility. I wish I could give you some wonderfully hopeful advice about all it it … but it is what it is. Just know that someone out on the Iowa plains is thinking of you and hoping for only the very best for you
But her emails!!!
@WaterGirl:
People see what they want to see. Plus, this sort of dickish behavior is still unacceptable. I’m withholding judgement to see if there are more accusers. It’s possible this was a one time unfunny joke and that the kiss is just an issue of two people getting their wires crossed – Al could have seen it as innocent and just part of rehearsing while Leann experienced it as assault. If more accusers come forward and establish this as a pattern for Franken, we’ll have our answer one way or the other.
trnc
@HeleninEire:
If no other claims are made, he shouldn’t resign because he IS better – better now than he was in 2006. Assuming he isn’t lying about having learned from his mistake, he should be allowed to continue fighting for what’s right. In case anyone is concerned that this amounts to him getting away with it, I don’t think he did. His personal reputation suffered a big hit, and it’s going to take a while to regain that. On the other hand, do we believe in personal redemption and a chance to correct mistakes or not?
Bill Arnold
@Shantanu Saha:
Or any other Senator with fresh sexual harassment allegations against them. (Or allegations that haven’t been revealed yet.) Some interesting possibilities.
FWIW agree with some above that the metric for seriousness should be roughly linear with the number of accusers, with increased weight for solid material evidence.
Query to scholar types: does anyone know of any statistics (percentages etc, not just counts) of power relationship abuse by genders of power relationship pair, preferably cross cultural? (My prejudice is that there is generally less abuse of female -> male power relationships, but don’t know if this is true, or would be true in a tends-matriarchal society.)
TenguPhule
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): Apparently.
clay
@TenguPhule: Poor Jared. So forgetful…
TenguPhule
@sharl: 2017 really is shaping up to be a sucky year.
TenguPhule
@clay: They didn’t get it at Jared’s. Now they want to know why.
mike in dc
@clay: Normally you only see that kind of brain trauma in boxers and pro football players.
hueyplong
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): I can’t answer your question because I didn’t comment on the picture, except to say that the committee will probably want to hear from the photographer because that person is obviously a witness to some of what went down.
If my wording implied anything beyond that, it was inartful.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Bill:
NO
The picture shows a sitting US senator acting out a sexual assault on a sleeping woman in a sensuous Kevlar vest back when foresaid senator was a professional comedian.
Ponder that point and where’s your’ god now?
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@mike in dc: That seems clarifying to me. I’ve had trouble sorting out what to think. This helps.
hellslittlestangel
@notoriousJRT:
You constantly complain about our good-natured sexual assaults. You can't take a joke.**Please note the font.
Bill
@jl:
Ambiguity noted and admitted. Did not intend to imply he committed the act while serving in the Senate.
As to your second point, certainly a charging body should investigate, but if we are going to wait on the results of such an investigation before passing judgment then the group that gathers here better start getting comfortable with the Rebublican “if true” qualifier. Either we believe women who tell their stories of assault or we don’t. But to disbelieve one – with clear photographic evidence – make no sense.
Mnemosyne
@Millard Filmore:
I doubt the tongue detail. YMMV.
different-church-lady
@HILFY: Say hi to Vladimir for us.
mike in dc
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: You lost me at “sensuous”. Typo?
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
I am skeptical of the tongue detail, but YMMV.
ruemara
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): Same woman. The picture was a staged picture for a bit and the kiss was part of the bit. Juvenile, utterly male and, sadly, too common.
@Bill: No one said they didn’t believe her story of being assaulted. Most are saying let’s see if this is a pattern, a clear assault on a sleeping woman (it isn’t) before we say he should resign.
SatanicPanic
@WarMunchkin: Thank you.
different-church-lady
I went out for a while, and I see while I was gone some people dropped in to play the “I think you’re really fuckin’ stupid” card.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: Okay, I usually try not to respond to shit like this, but I’m calling bullshit on your…bullshit. The post right below this one is about the Republican tax plan. Doug’s post at 8 am was on the Republican tax plan (complete with exhortations to call your congresscritter), and the morning thread also addressed it.
I feel confident that when the shitty House bill makes it to the shitty Senate, someone — perhaps several someones on the same fucking day! — will put up posts about that too, even though no responsible citizen should be relying on a goddamned blog, even a near-top 10K blog, to give them daily political marching orders. Oh, and excuuuuuuuse the fuck out of us for thinking sexual harassment is a worthy topic of discussion.
guachi
@ruemara:
What’s it called when women do it? Are they being “utterly male”, too? Or are women incapable of this kind of behavior?
Because “utterly” implies it’s completely male and, therefore, not something women are capable of doing. Your statement is absurd.
Bill
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: What exactly is it that makes you think the Senator’s prior profession or the victim’s attire is relevant?
And again, I disagree that there’s no contact. The fingers on his right hand, and one finger on his left are touching her.
schrodingers_cat
Is this the most important thing that’s happening today?
grubert
@Mnemosyne:
I doubt the tongue detail as well. It’s just the kind of thing that no third-party witness can debunk, completely unverifiable.
It’s quite probable that she had absolutely no issue with any of these events at the time and only became offended to provide cover for Roy Moore.
Her quick acceptance of Frankin’s politically astute apology is itself politically astute. If she refused to accept such a complete apology then a skeptical spotlight would have turned on her, perhaps even highlighting her political activism. Accepting the apology sets her accusations in stone, verified in the public mind.
Baud
@Bill: False dichotomy. We can examine the credibility and the seriousness of the accusations on a case-by-case basis.
Patricia Kayden
@ALurkSupreme: LOL!! We take women seriously when they claim sexual harassment regardless of the political affiliation of the accused. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Glad that Franken has taken responsibility for his actions and am hoping for the best. He’s no way in the same category as Moore (who is now claiming that he’s being victimized because of Jesus) or Trump (who won’t even admit that he’s a sexual harasser despite boasting of being so).
JMG
It is to the credit of Democrats that they spent the day arguing about Franken’s actions. It’s also why by next fall, your taxes will be up, Social Security disability ended and Medicare cut in half,Faced with worse accusations about their presidential nominee, Republicans stood behind him and still do. Democrats look inward, Republicans only push forward.
Niss Bianca
@ruemara: yeah, I’m there with you. Not trying to excuse boorish or sexist behavior, but this idea that there are good guys out there in the entertainment world who would NEVER do something like this at least once in their lives is just ludicrous. And for us to be acting shocked, SHOCKED to discover that there is gambling going on in this establishment, and therefore we must burn the whole ca$ino down, strikes me as just….I dunno. Naive?
Emma
@The Fat Kate Middleton: Same right back at you. Isn’t it fun to belong to this club?
Major Major Major Major
@Bill: Well, if we don’t even agree on what is very clearly shown in the photograph, I suppose there’s no point in continuing to care about your opinion on the matter.
Baud
@JMG: Meh. Unless something new drops, it looks like this story will peter out before the sunrise tomorrow.
ruemara
@guachi: It is when your whole society can have this as an SOP with so little consequence. Your society is absurd and abusive. Sucks to be you.
@schrodingers_cat: Nope, but this is what we do best. I’m sure everyone has called their reps against the tax bill that passed the House and to yell at them about PR, the USVI and impeachment.
Paul W.
Read at least several hundred of these comments and also talked to my sisters + female partner and all agree that this is the right road for Franken to take.
Resignation is ridiculous on THE DAY OF a release of an accusation (true or not), let the appropriate parties (accuser and accused) hash it out and if there are criminal charges (as in the case of Trump) then if those are being brought and by multiple parties then we have something to react to. But all of that takes days not minutes.
In this case, I agree that what Franken did was disgusting but not resignation earning by itself. This apology is the right step to take, as is an investigation. He is a valuable asset to women, and having gone through my own maturation where I have also done disgusting things and unintentionally harmed others it is important that we don’t just crush people who have done wrong. Hold them, me, accountable but for anything to change we have to include allowing that people change and if they are willing to move forward with the rest of civilization to go beyond patriarchy then I think there is a place for past sinners as well.
Just my two cents.
Niss Bianca
@ruemara: yeah, I’m there with you. Not trying to excuse boorish or sexist behavior, but this idea that there are good guys out there in the entertainment world who would NEVER do something like this at least once in their lives is just ludicrous. And for us to be acting shocked, SHOCKED to discover that there is gambling going on in this establishment, and therefore we must burn the whole ca$ino down, strikes me as just….I dunno. Naive?
ETA: dammit, in moderation again because of the email address thing. Ugh. Maybe this whole “wipe cookies every time thing” isn’t going to work out so well for me. And here when I was being such a cunning little weasel about speeling the c-word, too!
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: @ruemara: For some reason, I am seeing red on this issue where people seem to be going out of their way to paint this in as bad a light as possible.
I think referring to an unwanted kiss in this context as sexual assault is a bit like grade inflation. Women have agency, and if this grown woman on the USO tour didn’t want to do a kiss in a skit, she could have handled it like a grown-up. But to come back over 10 years later, and to connect the kiss with the stupid staged photo – to suggest that he touched her inappropriately – that just reeks of political motives. As does her statement that some of you seem to approve of. I thought her statement was horrid. Yeah. like I believe it wasn’t her intent to stir up a big stink about this. Ugh.
mike in dc
If there’s additional accusers for Franken, I expect that penny to drop quickly, like in the next week or so. There are likely reporters calling SNL alumni as I type this. If no additional accusers emerge, I think resignation is not appropriate. Censure, at most. The fact this did not occur during his tenure in the Senate is relevant and significant, I believe. If there are multiple additional accusers and they are credible, he’s toast, and rightly so. And rightly so for anyone on either side of the aisle who is outed as a serial offender.
Major Major Major Major
@JMG: What does Democrats spending (part of) a day (doing things in addition to) writing about this have to do with a fait accompli vote taking place in the House?
Miss Bianca
@ruemara: yeah, I’m there with you. Not trying to excuse boorish or sexist behavior, but this idea that there are good guys out there in the entertainment world who would NEVER do something like this at least once in their lives is just ludicrous. And for us to be acting shocked, SHOCKED to discover that there is gambling going on in this establishment, and therefore we must burn the whole ca$ino down, strikes me as just….I dunno. Naive?
ETA: dammit, in moderation again TWICE because of the nym/email address thing. Ugh. Maybe this whole “wipe cookies every time thing” isn’t going to work out so well for me. And here when I was being such a cunning little weasel about spelling the c-word, too!
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@ruemara: Thank you. Got it.
different-church-lady
@LurkerNoLonger:
It’s 1AM in Moscow — maybe they’ll catch up in the morning.
grubert
@Bill:
No, his fingers are not touching her at all. You’re being obstinate.
@guachi:
I knew a woman who would drink a bit much and grab men’s crotches and squeeze tight. She called it a “scoop” and would announce, “who wants to get scooped?” Her favorite attack was from behind.
I suppose some might think this good clean fun, other people joked about it. I was young then and avoided her like the plague.
guachi
@ruemara:
I have no idea what this means. What’s “my whole society”? American society? It’s also not an SOP for any society I’m aware of. Whose society is it an SOP for?
It sucks to be me because you’re speaking nonsense.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: NO!!!!! We are being just as stupid today as many of those we detest and disrespect. Squirrel!!!
Bill
@Baud: And the one where we decide to “wait and see what the investigation reveals” just happens to be the one where the accused is one of ours? One where there’s photographic evidence no less?
If the Senator in this picture was Rand Paul we’d be calling for his head.
pacem appellant
@Baud: It’s a big heel.
WaterGirl
@Major Major Major Major: People see what they want to see.
SatanicPanic
@JMG: Republicans haven’t managed to pass anything of note, Franken would immediately be replaced by another Democrat, and Roy Moore, a Republican, might well lose a race in ALABAMA, cutting their already slim margin in the Senate. But we’re DOOMED if we don’t immediately stop being concerned about the behavior of politicians on our side. Can someone point me to some sort of causal mechanism for our being DOOMED? Or is this just Balloon Juice eyeoring part one million?
different-church-lady
@Suzanne: Where does the reality TV show fit into this sequence?
Major Major Major Major
@Bill:
I wouldn’t.
Baud
@Bill: If the roles were reversed, and Rand handled it the way Franken did, I wouldn’t be calling for his head. I’m sorry you assume that most of us are hypocrites (some are, there are always some). I don’t know what that’s based on.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud:
And I’ll shoot it!
albertZ
@SatanicPanic: No causal mechanism. Just tit-for-tat.
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA: :-)
schrodingers_cat
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Infrared or fisheye?
Mnemosyne
@Miss Bianca:
The idea that there are “good guys” out there in the world who’ve never made a stupid and boorish sexual joke is ridiculous.
Hell, I’m a straight woman and I’ve made them.
WaterGirl
@Miss Bianca: @ruemara: I’m with you guys.
@Mnemosyne: And you.
Waratah
@WaterGirl: I agree with you and was very surprised to see John arrive so quickly to the conclusion he did. He generally puts a lot of intelligent thought in his posts.
Baud
@SatanicPanic: If you think Franken’s conduct is such that it requires that he resign immediately, then it really shouldn’t matter whether he is replaced by a Democrat or not.
Baud
@Waratah:
Are you new here?
grubert
@WaterGirl:
If you thought her statement was horrid in written form, you should hear her voice. I did, on the radio. Her voice and articulation was like Bill OReilly in attack mode, not like a traumatized victim recounting a painful memory.
Mnemosyne
@Bill:
Of course we would. Because it would be a partisan attack. You know, like if a Fox News commentator accused a popular Democrat of assaulting her on flimsy evidence.
WaterGirl
Can we talk about something else?
Steve Benen: Judge declares a mistrial in Menendez’s corruption trial.
Baud
@WaterGirl: New post on that.
different-church-lady
OK, what I really want to know is does GHW Bush need to get into the time machine with Bill Clinton and also resign before we can get rid of Trump?
SatanicPanic
@Baud: It might, but that’s not the point here. I’m not sure I wouldn’t make a cynical judgement if something were on the line. There is nothing on the line here. Franken will be replaced by a Democrat and until 2018 at the earliest, his vote doesn’t matter that much anyway- Democrats don’t need 48 votes to filibuster, they can do it with 47.
At most I’m hearing that his (admittedly) good questioning skills will be lost. That’s it. If someone can point to something else I might be swayed.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@schrodingers_cat: Neither. 16-50 power zoom. Infrared only really works best mid-day when there’s lots of light.
bupalos
@rikyrah:
I really don’t care if it’s a “setup” or not. People acting like Stuart Smalley (an act I really despise, btw) is somehow the only way we can effect progressive change are being ridiculous. I like the senator. I think he’s been good on policy. I’m pretty sure the replacement D would be good on policy too. I have ZERO allegiance to him beyond effecting that policy. I’ll make ZERO room for inappropriate behavior towards women on his behalf, frankly, the standard we set there is WAY more important than keeping some personality in the D seat from Minnesota.
He made a good statement, it goes a long ways towards defusing the bomb the republicans set here. But this whole thing needs to be analyzed solely in terms of whether the guy is an asset moving forward or not. Maybe he is, maybe not. The second further investigation shows any kind of pattern, I hope he’ll do the honorable thing and go. Because aside from the direct standard we are setting, there is going to be and endless parade of R’s walking this road, and it matters how we pave it right now.
hueyplong
@grubert: Being an optimist, I’ll lay out this scenario for her quick acceptance:
The picture, however staged, is ugly. She wanted a piece of Franken for doing that to her and was entitled to get it. The timing may be political, but tough break for Franken for paying up at an awkward time.
She was encouraged by Fox to go as far as she could in her allegations, maybe encouraged to say more than she has. She accepts Franken’s apology immediately because she knows if she waits Fox will forbid her to do so. She does this knowing it will cut Fox off.
It’s a made up theory that works back from a happy result, but you can say that it fits her statement accepting the apology and expressing little interest in hearings.
Waratah
@Baud: no just do not post much
John Cole
@Major Major Major Major: You want me to retract my opinion?
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: What is so funny is how outraged some of the guys seem to be? I mean seriously, give me a fucking break. I was a physics major and a grad student, I have spent a lot of time around guys. Our Balloon Juice guys sound like such delicate flowers with Victorian sensibilities. They doth protest too much..
Bill
@Baud:
I don’t. But I made the mistake of reading 500 odd comments in an earlier thread, many of which made me seriously question if the the readership here is who I thought it was. Over the last few months I’ve been overjoyed to watch a public shift in believing victims of sexual assault. It was jarring to watch this group disbelieve or downplay serious actions just because it was one of ours this time. (I was particularly appalled by the “we should act just like the Republicans because winning is all that matters” theme running through so many comments.)
So if my comment was over broad, apologies. But there’s a whole lot of terrible arguments being thrown around here today.
To be clear I LOVED Franken. He is an outstanding Senator. But this behavior by a 55 year old man is so outside the bounds of acceptable that it’s probably disqualifying. If the best defense we can muster is “He just pretended to grope her and had someone take a picture of it,” that’s not much of a defense.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Just saw that and jumped back here to edit my comment to take note of that fact. I am surprised Cole hasn’t put up a thread saying he was wrong to say Franking should resign. I thought he would have by now.
P.S. It’s very annoying on a day like today to have carved a chunk out of my nail and nail-bed while peeling a potato today. I am typing with 9 fingers.
Villago Delenda Est
@rp: And the photo was STAGED. The photographer has said that. Franken’s expression is definitely for the camera.
Some people need to be slapped up their fucking haids with clue-by-fours.
Bill
@Mnemosyne:
So your position is that we should disbelieve the victim?
Baud
@SatanicPanic: I don’t believe the decision on calling for a resignation should be partisan. We don’t throw out elected officials like trash. If you believe these facts call for it, so be it. Many disagree, but the fact that Minnesota has a Dem governor really isn’t a relevant consideration in this context.
ALurkSupreme
@Patricia Kayden:
Agreed. Well said.
WaterGirl
@John Cole: Cole, it’s not unheard of for you to post something in haste and then reconsider your position and post about that shortly thereafter. I kind of expected to see that from you on Al Frankin.
Are you still thinking he needs to resign?
schrodingers_cat
@Villago Delenda Est: Its not just T voters who are addicted to outrage.
Baud
@WaterGirl: Ouch ouch ouch.
gwangung
I think there are a LOT of people who are disagreeing that it’s that far outside the bounds of acceptable if they are referring to either the picture or the rehearsal (but definitely not the tongue).
Hoodie
@WaterGirl: Because they’re either morons or trolls?
O. Felix Culpa
@JMG: Bullshit. I made my calls today, as did many other Dems on and not on this blog. The shitty tax bill would have passed the House even if the topic of Al Franken had never come up. In the immortal words of..someone…we can multitask.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bill: You have lost your fucking mind.
SatanicPanic
@Baud: I’m just saying that people who are making the claim that his resignation would affect what laws pass and don’t pass are probably wrong.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Baud: My Indivisible group is, heavily. Here in Bluest Los Angeles, Swingleft/Sister District/Flippable are one of the best ways we can try to spread the liberal wealth to Red districts. SL has been doing a ton of voter registration and canvassing just about every weekend. They are great.
Mnemosyne
@Bill:
Does context matter at all, or are we only allowed to look at that single picture with no other explanation for it and make our decisions based on it?
schrodingers_cat
@Mnemosyne: We are going to need fainting couches and smelling salts for our delicate flowers.
SatanicPanic
@Villago Delenda Est:
Careful. It was clearly staged by two people- Franken and the photographer. We don’t know if she was asleep or not. I have heard it being thrown around that the photographer has claimed she was involved, but so far no one has shown me evidence of that.
Baud
@SatanicPanic: I agree with that narrow point.
Betty Cracker
@Paul W.: That makes a whole lot of sense. I agree with folks who are making a huge distinction between what Franken is alleged to have done and what Moore is accused of — it’s in a different moral universe, as someone observed.
But the accusation, if true, isn’t on the same level as a juvenile prank either, IMO. That Franken is taking it seriously is to his great credit. He’s setting an example that the folks who want to inspect Tweeden’s counters for evidence of granite would do well to heed.
hueyplong
@Bill: @Bill: @Bill: Franken has said he’ll cooperate with an ethics committee hearing and actively called for one to be held. Assuming it doesn’t go well for him, is it ok for him to resign after that happens? Or is there some other deadline that is critical to you?
You ask why the complaining party should not be believed. Why don’t you find credible her sincerity in accepting his apology?
Mnemosyne
@Bill:
As I have stated many times, I think there’s a decent chance that they had a miscommunication during the rehearsal and she assumed he had a personal interest that he didn’t actually have. He remembers it differently because he remembers it as a rehearsal where he kissed her as part of the scene as written.
Villago Delenda Est
@SatanicPanic: Oh, you’ve demonstrated your gullibility to Faux propaganda already. No more need to hear from you.
Calouste
Because Franken immediately called for an ethics investigation on himself, this could come to bite the GOP right in the ass. When (not if) a GrOPer is accused, literally the only defense they will have left is IOKIYAR. Not that they won’t try.
Cacti
Lots of noobs here with very strong opinions about this.
Go figure.
Villago Delenda Est
@hueyplong: Because he’s busy being a sanctimonious prick.
Bill
@Mnemosyne: What context am I’m missing. She said she was asleep and did not consent. Other than some internet speculation I have not seen any sources indicating she was in on it.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Bill</a>
Jesus Christ, you are thicky
* Franken profession is relevant because that’s the damn context the incident happen in.
* The way she was dressed was the EXACTLY opposite of “she’s begging for it”, short of her wearing a full hazmant suit. In fact it’s so DAMN obvious any one with MORE SENSE THAN GOD GAVE A SOUP DISH might see has inherently absurd.
* In a sane world, professional clown isn’t a path to senator. So things are already weird from the get go.
Is any of this making sense Bill???
WaterGirl
@Baud: Yeah, I’m pretty creeped out. Pretty squeamish about that kind of thing. I barely looked at it, grabbed a paper towel and pressed as hard as I could, then called a friend and drove to her house for an eval, she got me patched up and didn’t think I needed a doctor. Took 2 advil and then came back to BJ.
So much for all my cleaning and laundry before company tomorrow.
Miss Bianca
@SatanicPanic:
How about, “as yet there is little credible evidence that anything happened that calls for a sitting US Senator to fucking resign his seat”? Altho’ I doubt you’ll be swayed by that.
@Bill: And you. As an actual victim of sexual assault by a guy in the entertainment industry – *and* one of the ones arguing that this whole episode appears a). to be blown way out of proportion, and b). quite possibly politically motivated – may I ask you to spare us your fucking outrage *and* your generalizations about the BJ commentariat? For fuck’s sake, I’m THAT fed up with a lot of the male purity posturing and rush to judgement I’m seeing on this issue.
different-church-lady
I think this idea that we throw out all perspective and give everyone the death penalty for every transgression that will finally convince the American people that democrats have the integrity worthy of their vote is a sound one.
[nods]
SatanicPanic
@Villago Delenda Est: It’s FAKE NEWS that no one has been able to produce an actual quote from this photographer? Jesus Christ people, are we Roy Moore fans now? I will gladly admit I was wrong if someone produces a link. Just a link! Too much to ask?
hueyplong
@Villago Delenda Est: The fact that I worded those things as questions shouldn’t preclude the notion that I might think I knew the answers.
Baud
@SatanicPanic: Information is always sketchy in the first 24 hours. Just like with a terrorist attack. That’s why the investigation is important.
SatanicPanic
@Miss Bianca: With all due respect that’s not the question I was asking. I think what he did was gross and he should resign. If people are going to respond by saying his vote matters I don’t think it’s too much to ask to have someone explain to me whether it actually does. Because I don’t think it does.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
And please note: one of the reasons I think this was originally based in a misunderstanding is that I think both of them are (mostly) telling the truth. I tend to disbelieve the detail of the tongue, but that’s really a he said/she said kind of thing unless more women come forward.
Gwangung (who has actual professional theater experience) says that there are sometimes creeps who make themselves notorious on a stage or set for French kissing their unwilling costars, but I’m not sure that the fact that those people exist is enough to convict Franken without a few more allegations.
schrodingers_cat
@Miss Bianca: Amen sister!
I have had enough of this Tajia*. Its difficult to watch.
* Shia ritual of bloody self flagellation.
Cacti
@different-church-lady:
Roy Moore and Donald Trump agree that Al Franken must resign.
No lefties, you’re not getting played…again.
SatanicPanic
@Baud: Also a fair point. Honestly though, I think that photo is going to kill him unless there’s video of her going “ok, I’ll pretend to be asleep, you pretend to grope me”.
Bill
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: So sexual assault is OK if its in a comedy setting? That makes no goddamn sense at all, but Louis CK will be happy to hear that defense is available to him.
Turning the “she was begging for it” slut shaming line on it’s head is a nice try, but completely irrelevant. She could be wearing a burlap sack and he still has no right to touch – or pretend to touch (for those insisting the photo shows no touching) – her breasts. What the victim of assault is wearing at the time of the assault just isn’t relevant.
Jesus the arguments around here are maddening today. Why is it so hard to admit a guy we all liked a whole lot acted in a completely unacceptable way? It’s not anybody’s fault but his own.
Mnemosyne
@Bill:
The context where it was staged and he didn’t actually touch her, which is obvious in the photo itself.
If a guy falls asleep and his friends draw dicks on his face with a Sharpie, is that sexual assault?
hellslittlestangel
@Bill: I believe the victim. But, absent other evidence, I believe she’s the victim of nothing more than a really tasteless prank.
hueyplong
The vibe today is giving me such a flashback to the heady primary days of Wilmerism.
Never should have ignored the injunction against taking the brown acid. It was a youthful indiscretion.
Miss Bianca
@SatanicPanic: Well, I think you’re a tiresome ass and YOU should resign from this conversation. Plus, if any evidence surfaces that you’ve ever done anything the least bit skeevy or even questionable, that you should resign from your profession and quite possibly commit seppuku as well. Unless someone can persuade me that what you do actually MATTERS. But, you know, shape of the world, opinions differ.
Cacti
@Bill:
You left off the “and should be shot at dawn”.
BBA
I admit I was shitposting in the earlier megathread. And now I’d like to speak my true opinions, without exaggeration for trollish effect:
I think we should always believe women. Thus I believe Leeann Tweeden when she said Al Franken harassed her. And I believe her when she said she accepted his apology.
SatanicPanic
@Miss Bianca: OK, that’s uncalled for.
mike in dc
@Bill: I don’t think there’s argument that he acted inappropriately. I think it’s the “and he should resign immediately” that people are taking issue with.
gwangung
@Mnemosyne:
Well, that’s more invasive than what seems to have happened here….
@mike in dc: Well, yes, the penance things is a bit more heated. I’m not sure it should be so binary as it appears to be argued.
Sherparick
As a member of AA, Assholes Anonymous, I tell you the first step to stop being an asshole is admit you been one & commit to not being one anymore. This, by the way is the difference between Franken & Moore, Hannity, O’Reilly, Weinstein etc. He said Ms. Tanden was the victim here, not him. As to resignation, I am afraid that is still a like likely outcome, but will wait & see.
Na
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
Wait, you think the photographer actually interrupted Franken in the process of assaulting a woman for real? A photo that was published in a book about the trip?
If that’s the case, I have a whole lot of questions for that photographer, like, Why didn’t you report this incident to the proper authorities since you witnessed and have documentary evidence of a crime? Why did you publish it in a book instead?
Mnemosyne
@hellslittlestangel:
Yes. This.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: No, I think he and Franken probably did exactly what we all think he did- Franken pretended to grab her boobs while some guy took a photo. I never called it assault I just called it gross. I’m taking issue with the idea that we know she was in on it. We don’t.
different-church-lady
Harassment
Assault
Misconduct
Rape
There’s a reason we have all these different words.
Bill
@Miss Bianca:
As an assault victim you have a perspective I can’t address. I won’t try.
But this comment is unfair. So you understand, I spent time prosecuting sex crime, and was appalled to watch victims be re victimized by not being believed. Perhaps the facts of this incident are not as *serious* as others. But in my experience, seriousness is in the eye of the beholder.
I am neither posturing nor seeking purity. Only consistency in treating these types of incidents with the seriousness they warrant.
Baud
@different-church-lady: Add in Child Molestation, because some people seem to be equating this to Roy Moore.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
And yet you think it’s so terrible that Franken should resign in disgrace over it.
Perspective. You lack it.
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: Pretty sure that this Bill person is a troll. Is certainly behaving like one today, anyway.
Bill
@Mnemosyne:
No, but it is if they grab his junk.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: Your opinion is predicated on the assumption that she’s lying about the tongue thing, which is the most damning part of the accusation, IMO. Fair enough. I don’t assume that.
Cacti
@Bill:
Damn that Constitutional presumption of innocence, and burden of proof.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: Yes, that and the other thing he’s accused of. What perspective am I missing?
grubert
@hueyplong:
That’s a workable theory too. Has the virtue of not being too simplistic.
Fleeting Expletive
I have not read the thread yet, so probably not original thought, but Franken is very smart. Calling for a Senate investigation of himself is brilliant. “Yes–track down and interview the cameraman, the gaffers, the director and get to the bottom of this gross kiss.” If the R’s fall for it, that sets the threshold of what’s worth pursuing. If they say nah then, not important? I dunno. I’ll catch up now, thanks.
Emma
@mike in dc: This is what fascinates me. I went back through my posts and I think that I made it perfectly clear that IF there’s a pattern to his behavior, THEN he should be punished to the appropriate extent. As did many of the other posters. But not willing to jump in and help pull the executioner’s wagon until then makes us complicit in the crime or something.
I wonder what will happen when, as inevitably will human nature being what it is, an innocent person is accused.
MisterForkbeard
@WaterGirl: I’ve been wondering – I don’t remember seeing Bill around before, but I could be wrong. That said, he’s definitely doing the “let’s make this as awful as we possibly can, ignore counter-evidence and explanations and insist all of BJ is awful for suggesting there might be alternative explanations or that Franken shouldn’t immediately resign and possibly kill himself in shame” routine awfully well, including most recently a paean to how not believing women victimizes them all over again.
I’m not sure whether he’s a troll, or a particularly overzealous person.
Miss Bianca
@SatanicPanic: What, you don’t like being held to the same standard of purity you’re insisting on holding someone else to?
Bill
@WaterGirl:
Wow! I’m a Troll for taking the outlandish position that photographic evidence of assault should be taken very seriously?
I’ve been participating on the board for years. Not as regularly as many but with fair frequency. I read the threads often. I am not trolling you or anyone else here. And I don’t think my history of participation – including in this thread – indicates trolling behavior.
Has trolling just become synonymous with disagreeing?
Cacti
@Bill:
And where would that evidence be, counselor?
SatanicPanic
@Miss Bianca: I don’t even know what you’re talking about at this point. I said I think he should resign. That’s my opinion and it’s based on what I see is gross behavior. I also said that I’m not swayed by arguments that it affects what laws are passed. That’s a factual claim which no one seems to be countering. If you want to agree to disagree on the former, fine. If you want to disprove the latter then do it. But it’s no reason to be rude. I was rude upthread but I apologized.
WaterGirl
@MisterForkbeard: Today he is working so hard to make arguments that the facts don’t support that it’s a wonder he hasn’t sprained something.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
I’m not even sure I would call it a straight-up lie on her part. I think being grabbed and kissed — even in the context of a rehearsal — grossed her out and, because she’s not an actress, she had a hard time seeing it as something that happened to her character, not to her.
And as she retold the story over the next 10+ years, it naturally grew from, He grabbed me and kissed me during rehearsal to … and he stuck his tongue down my throat, too!
That’s why I keep thinking it was a genuine misunderstanding, not Franken being a creeper and using the excuse of rehearsal to tongue-kiss her.
WaterGirl
@Bill: Here is what I said below. Please replace the word troll above with this understanding of where I’m coming from:
Today he is working so hard to make arguments that the facts don’t support that it’s a wonder he hasn’t sprained something.
hueyplong
Bill must have been a pretty shitty prosecutor, insisting on sentencing the day he files charges, or, perhaps even more analogous to this case, the day the victim is interviewed and charges have yet to be filed at all.
Mnemosyne
@Bill:
Here, I’ll repeat what I said above: shouldn’t the photographer be questioned about why he took a picture of an assault in progress and did not report it to the authorities? Not only that, he then published evidence of a crime in a book!
Cacti
@hueyplong:
His status as a prosecutor does explain his dour resoluteness that everyone’s guilty.
grubert
@Cacti:
FWIW, I’ve been reading since 2009 at least, and have commented under now-stale pseudonyms. grubert is as close to the real me as you can get.
MisterForkbeard
@hueyplong: The problem is, it is absolutely reasonable to want Franken investigated and held to account. It’s unreasonable to immediately demand Franken’s resignation based off a staged photograph in which Franken is hoverhanding a woman’s boobs in order to make a joke about the sexiness of combat armor. In which we have unproven statements from the photographer that the women was awake and consented to, and the photo itself has been published in a book for years and apparently no one thought it was a big deal.
And then to attack people here when any of this is pointed out or when the commentariat believes that maybe Franken isn’t so bad as to need to immediately resign because she immediately accepted his apology and there seems to be some ambiguity as to what’s going on… that’s what comes off as trollish.
Bill
@hueyplong:
The guys still sitting in prison would disagree.
But to be clear the day the victim comes in with a photograph of the assailant committing the act he’s accused of the first call is to defense counsel to “take the deal.” If the defendant wants to argue “I wasn’t actually doing it I was just pretending to do it for the camera,” I’d be more than happy to take that case in front of 12 of his peers.
AliceBlue
This may have been discussed before, but I’m genuinely interested in how and why Roger Stone got a heads up on this.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: We’re gonna have to agree to disagree here. He either grabbed her and aggressively tongue-kissed her against her will as she described, or he didn’t. If he just gave her a theatrical smack on the lips and she embellished the incident over the years to accuse him of ramming his tongue down her throat, she’s lying.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Fleeting Expletive: The guy that took the picture might be Owen Franken, he has credit for the USO pics in Sen. Franken’s latest book. He’s Al’s older brother and is a photographer(a lot of good that MIT degree did).
Bill
@Mnemosyne:
Given that the USO claims the photographer was Franken’s Brother, the lack of reporting may be explainable. Do you have a link for the book claim? I’ve looked at can’t find it.
gwangung
@Betty Cracker: Given the malleability of memory, I’m no longer sure of that. And that applies to both people involved.
(Just to repeat, at this point, I hold that both versions being told could be true. More information will tell me which is more likely to be true).
grubert
@Betty Cracker:
And wouldn’t that be one the safest lies possible? A lie that no-one could disprove?
Telling a safe lie is.. safe.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic: If you think forcing a Democratic Senator to resign on the basis of one unsubstantiated allegation by questionable source wouldn’t produce a flood of copycats, I want what you’re smoking.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Yes.
But her emails!!!
@Bill:
Well, other than the fact that the photo doesn’t actually show Franken assaulting her.
jonas
@HILFY:
I’m sorry, no. We’re not going there.
Mnemosyne
@AliceBlue:
That is certainly a curious aspect of this story.
TenguPhule
@Emma:
We could be seeing it right now.
MisterForkbeard
@But her emails!!!: Your nym gets to the exact problem you’re describing.
No matter how much it can be proved that it was a staged photo and Franken didn’t actually touch her… and that the photo’s been published publicly for years now and no one cared, some people are going to insist that Franken sexually assaulted a woman and we’ve got it on camera. And it’ll be brought up repeatedly in the future whenever Franken does anything.
Bill
I’m checking out, but want to take a minute to say that this spun out of control a bit more than I intended. I’ve never been accused of being a troll before, and I’m not sure what I did to set that off. Probably need to reflect.
Just a few points, if you look back at my comments I never said Franken should resign. I’m actually not sure where I am on this issue. I think redemption is a real thing, and his statement today is a step in the right direction. Although I’m not sure if it’s enough. But I also think its clear he did what he’s accused of doing. Yes, part of the reason I believe that is because I believe the victim. I don’t think women enjoy the beating they take when they finally tell their stories of assault and harassment. They are much more likely to hide what happens to them than to make false claims. And I also think the photo is damning. (I know many here disagree.)
These are VERY serious acts. And I worry about those of us on the left being inconsistent in the treatment of our politicians as opposed to those on the right.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
Human memory is malleable and falliable, so that’s why I’m reluctant to call it a deliberate lie on her part. She may have been more grossed out in retrospect because of his politics.
As gwangung was saying in the previous thread, actors who try to inappropriately tongue-kiss their costars make themselves notorious pretty quickly, so we should know within a few days if there are other women who say he was known for doing that.
TenguPhule
@Bill:
So you have experience sending innocent people to jail, do you?
Perhaps you could give Sessions a call, I hear he’s looking for someone to fire Mueller.
Mnemosyne
@Bill:
Wow. You’ve built up a whole conspiracy theory in your mind here, haven’t you?
If you keep claiming that you’re listening to the victim, you should probably go back and read what she actually said about the photo. She claims that she came across it in a USO book that was published after the tour.
Villago Delenda Est
@HILFY:
I’d be disappointed to know that Al Franken could be attracted to someone so fascist-curious.
hueyplong
@Bill: So you’re saying you put guys in prison for sentencing (not just being held for trial) before trial. You really ARE a Russian.
And a dick.
lofgren
This whole stupid scandal is “weak sauce.”
I certainly don’t approve of Franken’s antics, but slipping somebody the tongue in a rehearsal kiss and MIMING grabbing a woman’s breasts is more in the “Dude, don’t be an asshole,” league of scandal than “You should probably be in prison to protect other victims” league. Calling him a “predator” is laughable and calling for his resignation is straight up absurd. Were these dick moves? Yeah. Should he be reprimanded? Sure. But this whole episode is being ludicrously overblown.
Bill
@Mnemosyne: She said she got the photos on a CD after the tour.https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/franken-allegations/546092/
Bill
@hueyplong: Perhaps you misunderstand how plea deals work.
Ruckus
@HILFY:
First of all you are full of shit about Leeann Tweeden being slutty. She is a genuinely good person. I have no idea of her political views but 15-18 yrs ago I was on a first name basis with her, we worked at some of the same events. We worked different areas/responsibilities but but we talked on occasion. She was and I’d bet still is a rather nice person. I doubt she would remember me now it’s been at least 14-15 yrs ago since we last talked, she had moved on from what she was doing about that time and I did as well a couple of years later.
Bill Arnold
@schrodingers_cat:
:-)
Random story time. Reviewing my (male, quite heterosexual) memories out of curiosity (had honestly never bothered before), have had at least three (as a rather shy geek type) non-prior-consensual mouth kisses from (non-relative) women, a science teacher when I was 12, a bride’s sister (she a little drunk) at a wedding, and a biker women at a bar(probably also a bit drunk). I was not bothered by (inverse; male, remember) any of these (and all three were from their point of view sweet/sincere(can tell), which matters). I did not try to get the science teacher arrested and/or fired – that would have been very wrong in my ethics (groping or multiple repeats or an obviously predatory affect might have been another story. Male, remember.). These don’t map precisely (gender switched) to Tweeden’s account; agreed.
Anyway, admit like others to partisanship in looking at Tweeden’s wikipedia page and wondering whether she was actively wingnutty. Is she?
And Mr RatFucker is tempting the fates.
Gretchen
People have been speculating that Franken will run for President. The same week he goes hard after Jeff Sessions someone from Fox News claims he’S guilty if the same sin as their guy. Are we sure the Mercers didn’t find her and push her out there?
TenguPhule
@Bill Arnold: Don’t even have to wikipedia her. Her clips on youtube for Fox News Hannity Show are all over the place .
TenguPhule
@Gretchen: Franken could still run and win. I’ve learned in 2016 that the American public doesn’t have any standards anymore.
Canadian_Shield
As far as the picture, if I read this correctly, she had a copy of the picture on a CD that the performers on the tour all got. So these were the “behind the scenes goofing-off souvenir of the tour pictures.” This fits what I see, his hands are hovering over her armored chest and he’s mugging with a ‘wait until she sees this picture ha ha’ look. Not a good thing, but miles away from resign immediately. He apologized, she accepted, let’s not make the perfect the enemy of the good. I think in words and action Franken has proven himself to be good, particularly the version we have now in 2017.
Ruckus
@jl:
This is a good point. We want felons to be able to vote, once they’ve paid their debt to society, we want them to be citizens. If we don’t they have less reason to be better people. People make mistakes, we all do this, it’s part of being alive. We do it in our jobs, in our private lives, even (especially?) politicians make mistakes. It’s what we do with it afterwards, it’s what we learn from those mistakes, it’s how we get better. Extreme religious people think asking god for forgiveness is all that is necessary, but we live with fellow humans, they are the one’s that have been wronged and they are the one’s whose lives were changed. So we set limits of what is acceptable and what is not. What is the punishment and what is not. People can change, but they have to want to, they have to be given the chance to and they have to be accepted for having done that.
stinger
@Betty Cracker: I’ve pied one or two commenters on this blog. And I’m grateful for the opportunity to do so. But some of the pied results are fairly offensive. For example, there’s one that says something like “I’d kick a nun in the crotch for a slice of pie.” I’d almost rather read so-and-so’s actual trollish comment than that.
Can anything be done about it?
J R in WV
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
I bet they could hire Colin K for a tenth that. Really !!
Bill Arnold
@Bill:
Have to say, you were setting off my political-operative-troll-alarms from the first post in this thread. Maybe they were misfiring, and it was just lawyer-mode argumentation. (GG also pissed me off very early on; every single sentence had to be examined for absent counter arguments; as a scientist type this form of argumentation does not sit well.)
Also, body armor. (At least it looks like it; ignorant I am).
Mnemosyne
@Canadian_Shield:
If he had left things at this morning’s lame, half-assed apology, I could see being pissed at him, but his fuller apology is good and — more importantly — has been accepted by Tweeden. Can we put a pin in this unless more women step forward to show that this is a pattern?
Trentrunner
@different-church-lady: Well, Tbogg is a little too enamored of his own daughter’s “loveliness,” if you know what I mean. It’s actually quite fucking creepy. So, no, I don’t trust him on this issue (or anything really).
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: She said she finally said okay to the kiss rehearsal – how did we get to grabbing and kissing against her will?
TenguPhule
Economically anxious.
Gee, I wonder where I’ve heard this before.
WaterGirl
@stinger: I believe Alain and/or Major Major Major Major are the people for that. Alain recently lost his mother, but if you find Major Major in a thread and let him know, I’m sure he will either take care of it or let Alain know once he’s back to “work”.
edit: Yikes! I just got one that says:
Look at me, I’m the pie fucker!…In prison, he’ll be the pie.
UGH. Worthy of all caps, and bold.
Bobby Thomson
@WaterGirl: that’s why I think the whole thing is bullshit, especially if the photo was staged with her knowledge. Regardless, I think Al’s response this afternoon was pitch perfect.
Betty Cracker
@WaterGirl: From her description of the incident.
@stinger: I don’t know shit about it — Maybe Alain and M4 control it as suggested above. As far as I know, the pie filter was created by Cleek, a valued, long-time commenter and author of Cleek’s Law.
You’d have to take it up with him, but I believe he built it on a voluntary basis and makes no profit from it. I don’t use it since I feel obligated to monitor comments as a keeper of the keys, but I doubt Cleek would include anything terrible.
IMO, people who are offended by free shit offered by others (blogs, pie filters, etc.) should determine whether the value of the product in question outweighs the offense they feel and decide for themselves whether it’s worth it or not.
Nothing wrong with raising an issue you have with people who provide you with a free services that you voluntarily use — maybe they’ll accommodate your preferences. But I can tell you from experience “UR doing it rong” can be damn tiresome to hear about your unpaid work.
Ruckus
@TenguPhule:
Yeah, I’ve never used those words before but the description fits me pretty damn good not that long ago. Like yesterday.
Six years ago I would have said economically fucked. So yea! An improvement.
WaterGirl
@Bobby Thomson: I think it’s a political attack, too. Even if it wasn’t, the photo was in poor taste, but I have seldom seen comedy that doesn’t go over one line or another. I can easily believe Franken was sexist then and can still be a good guy who views women with respect now.
in college, I drank at the grad school bars and we had the best parties, and we would drive under the influence. Doesn’t mean I would do that now. I think most men have probably behaved piggishly at some point in their lives. Most, but not all, of course.
J R in WV
Back when I was in college, in the past century, I stood outside a young woman’s dorm and shouted at her. Guilty, guilty, guilty.
Sorry Ms Speigle. Wont’ happen again!!! I don’t think I ever touched anyone in a sexual manner who clearly didn’t want any touching.
People, remember Senator Franken’s prior job was as a comedian, he did physical comedy, like slapstick, he did insulting snide comments about current rulers of the world, he did every kind of humor.
Much was really funny, some was kinda funny, and a little was off target. But his proportions of really funny to off target was better than almost any other comic of his time. The photo was a prank, plain and simple, with people there watching the setup. There was no sexuality except Franken acting like “Judge” Roy Moore on a date with a 14 y o.
There wasn’t much to apologize for if you ask me, compared to “Judge” Roy Moore, who isn’t qualified for the title of “Judge” because he was fired both time he was elected for plain old incompetence and improper judging. And she works for FOX ???? Grrr. And not at Senator Al Franken!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@WaterGirl:
Comedy is a problem here, did the joke in the photo go over the line in the current environment, yes. In the context of a USO tour, maybe not. Tons of comedians have made a shit load of money insulting people, the lines are really grey and sometimes the joke that seemed like a funny doesn’t work and backfires. As Steve Martin entitled an album, “Comedy isn’t Pretty”.
WaterGirl
@J R in WV: I could not agree more. It seems like common sense has flown out of a lot of windows today. Refreshing to read this.
Citizen Alan
@Bill:
Refresh my memory. Wasn’t Rand Paul the guy who kidnapped a woman when he was in college and carried her out into the woods so he could force her to pray to Aqua Buddha? As I recall, it was a 2-day story at most. Certainly none of the voters in Kentucky gave a crap about it.
WaterGirl
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Exactly! In a USO show especially.
WaterGirl
@Citizen Alan: Yes it was. Good catch. “Boys will be boys.”
Unless they are democrats.
Bobby Thomson
@WaterGirl: the full context arguably makes it worse, but he was working the 18-26-year-old mostly male circuit with material that was undoubtedly pretty raunchy and the skit was likely not something he’d want voters to see. I have no doubt a lot of things were said and done on the tour that a lot of people justifiably would find offensive.
WaterGirl
@Bobby Thomson: I have no doubt about that, either. But it doesn’t make him a bad man or a bad senator. I think he has been a great senator and has displayed great respect for women in Act II of his professional life.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Bobby Thomson: I’m sure the dressing up as Saddam Hussein would cost a bunch of votes.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@WaterGirl: Generally the way a comedian knows that a joke or gag doesn’t work is when it doesn’t get any laughs.
randy khan
I think this may have been said above, but the call for an ethics investigation is really smart (and I want to contribute to the potential T-Bogg Unit). Those things take a long time, and are unlikely to lead to much in the way of sanctions. It also creates a space for people to think about what they really want to happen.
Groucho48
Sounds like the kissing thing was a regular part of the show. It IS a little sad that a show from 2005 treats the female entertainers as eye candy just as they did in the 60’s.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Mnemosyne: I want to emphasise how true this is; it extends far beyond the extent that people realise. The mere act of thinking about about a memory intrinsically changes it. It’s entirely possible that if a person continually retells a particular story over a dozen years, they will end up diverging wildly from how the events actually occurred without ever intending to lie or even embellish. I’m not saying this is definitely what occurred here, but it shouldn’t be dismissed as a possibility either.
Personally I think Franken’s actions are bad, but I don’t yet see clear evidence of anything obviously criminal or anything that justifies calling for his resignation. His first statement was also pretty bad, but his second one was really good. The fact that he’s calling to have his own actions investigated inclines me to extend him a lot more benefit of the doubt than I otherwise might.
stinger
@WaterGirl: Thanks – I knew about Alain’s situation and didn’t want to bother him. But there are a lot of people on these couple of threads who are so vocal about their loathing for misogyny that I wonder if they’ve pied anyone here and are cool with the occasional results.
(Lots of the pies make me laugh.)
@BettyCracker:
I get that — another reason why I’ve been reluctant to raise the issue. And I have no idea of the effort involved in setting up the pie filter and editing the pie list. I recall when Alain was revamping it recently. This just seemed like it might be a good thread to ask about it. If you don’t ask, you’re pretty unlikely to get what you want. However, maybe I will unpie the couple of people I’ve pied and lay into them when they deserve it!
SFAW
@Bill:
I’m so old, I remember when projection was the exclusive domain of Republicans.
schrodingers_cat
I am going to say one last thing about this fiasco. When voters vote for Rs against their own self interest, the accepted CW on this site is because they are racist and bigoted, which may well be the case but I also think its because people see Rs as fighters and Ds as soft and squishy. The alacrity with which many people on this blog are ready to throw Franken under the bus is demonstrative of that fact. If we don’t have each other’s back, see for example how many Ds were relentlessly critical of President Obama, why should voters trust that Ds will have their backs? Purity left voters are unreliable allies, is my conclusion to this entire sorry episode.
SFAW
@Bill:
To paraphrase Paul Simon: “A man sees what he wants to see, and disregards the rest.” His hands are clearly not touching her, despite what you want to believe.
SFAW
@Mnemosyne:
Can you PLEASE provide a goddam trigger warning before saying stuff like that? I had to self-defibrillate when I read it.
EM
Look, I’m about as liberal as anyone on this website most likely more so. However I think it’s probably safe to say I’m in the minority here when I say unequivocally I don’t see anything wrong in this picture. In the picture one can clearly see Franken is not even touching her. He’s pretending to touch her. In a playful and comedic way. Moreover, the woman is wearing a freaking flak jacket covering her chest. Thus in the picture we have a man pretending to touch a woman’s chest, meaning he’s not actually touching her chest, while her chest is fully covered by a freaking flak jacket.
Last year I attended a Halloween party where I was dressed as a football player. I was obviously wearing an oversized cup. I had multiple women suggestively grab at my crotch in a playful way, with some actually making contact with it. Were they harassing me? Of course not. It was a Halloween party, it was festive atmosphere, and they clearly were kidding around, and there was obviously nothing to touch since I was wearing a cup which was covering everything.
SFAW
@schrodingers_cat:
I, on the other hand, am disappointed that no one on THIS thread has called for Franken to be burned at the stake. [Fortunately, different-church-lady took care of that on the earlier thread.] I think a lot of the purity ponies are getting soft in their dotage.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@SFAW: I was going to go with resign, take on sackcloth and ashes and depart to an ice floe, burning at the stake works too. //
SFAW
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Maybe we should do a SurveyMonkey thing? (if that still exists) Because some may prefer drawing-and-quartering, others might want the Zyklon-B option (although those persons tend to gravitate to StormFront and similar).
SWMBO
My question is did she accept his apology and declare the incident over because she may have “remembered” more accurately or possibly because she didn’t want to have to recall under oath and penalty of perjury?
SWMBO
This thread is dying. We aren’t going to get to one Tbogg unit at this rate.
wenchacha
@Trentrunner: Oh, come on. He always refers to get as “the lovely and talented” etc.,etc. And he has always written fondly of Mrs. Tbogg. I have gotten zero creepy vibes from him.
randy khan
@SWMBO:
Maybe she accepted his apology because it was a real apology and acknowledgment that he’d done something wrong.
cwmoss
@Chip Daniels: I have a video of him accusing his opponent in an election of committing murder. Oh, wait, that was a Franken and Davis sketch about the Pete Tagliani v. Winfield Alcock congressional race.
Gretchen
@schrodingers_cat: Excellent summary. We know Franken is an excellent ally. Something comes up that seems to show him in a bad light, with Roger Stone tweeting about it before it happens. Franken has made it clear that he’s going to follow the Russia allegations without fear or favor, and someone from Fox News accuses him of something, and said she couldn’t say anything for fear that the Air America host, living in Minnesota, would destroy her career. And, I repeat, Roger Stone knew about it ahead of time. And we just trample along and say he should resign because the right wingers searched for something to attack him about, and found something they could distort. Republicans are lined up to defend a child molester, and we can’t wait for the facts to come out on someone who has been a fighter for the good? Even the accuser has kind of backed down. I’m betting the Mercers are sweating that the investigation is getting too close to them and hitting people who can bring them down. Don’t help!
Gretchen
@MisterForkbeard: Yes!
Gretchen
The photographer says she was in on the photo. So she’s coming in after the fact and saying she was unaware, while that’s not true. And she works for Fox News. They’re taking down a possible Democratic 2020 contender. That’s all.
TenguPhule
@Gretchen: @Gretchen: Look pal, that navel lint isn’t going to collect itself! //
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat:
SFAW
@Trentrunner:
How many times did you need to run headfirst into a brick wall to be able to come up with that idiocy?
Ella in New Mexico
@Gretchen:
This is pretty disturbing, along with some folks on Twitter quoting the photographer and others present on the tour as contradicting the Leedmans’s accusations, including the assertion that the photo was staged and that she was in on the joke. Something is dirty here.
I’m thinking Franken is crazy like a fox here in demanding an ethics investigation because he knows it will show this is not what it seems, and that it’s better he not be the messenger. He is smart and decent enough to know that just coming out and talking like Roy Moore or Donald Trump against this woman is not the way to handle this, that it’s better to stay calm and let the story right itself.
So don’t look to me to throw him under the bus anytime soon. We need him in the Senate, and unless this story gets worse he needs have his day with the ethics investigation, apologize as necessary and move on.
No One You Know
@HeleninEire: Yes. This.
I don’t need purity, I need people who make mistakes, acknowledge them, offer sincere amends and acknowledge doing wrong, and do better thereafter.
And who will bring guns to a gunfight.