The tax bill Senate Republicans are championing would give large tax cuts to millionaires while raising taxes on American families earning $10,000 to $75,000 over the next decade, according to an analysis released Thursday by the Joint Committee on Taxation, Congress’ official nonpartisan analysts.
President Trump and Republican lawmakers have been heralding their bill as a win for hard-working Americans, but the JCT report casts serious doubt on that claim. Tax hikes for households earning $10,000 to $30,000 would start in 2021 and grow sharply from there. By the year 2027, Americans earning $30,000 to $75,000 a year would also be forced to pay more in taxes even though people earning over $100,000 continue to get substantial tax cuts.
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rikyrah
This is about giving tax cuts to the less than 1% and corporations, period.
TenguPhule
Either this tax abomination dies, or our country does.
JPL
I’m retired and just what I always wanted was to pay additional taxes so millionaires could get a break. Wahoo!
Hunter Gathers
Sure it’s gonna raise my taxes, but the owner of the place I work at has bruised fee fee’s over Colin Kaepernick. Therefore, MAGA, bitches.
Duane
Here’s an easy to remember acronym for all the buffoons who still support Trump’s tax plan. Trump’s Winning Income Tax Scheme. TWITS
Neldob
The more I learn of it the worse it gets.
burnspbesq
McConnell and Hatch miscalculated. Putting the individual mandate in play is going to come back to haunt them.
Thirteen million people lose health insurance so the Kochs get a few billion of tax relief over the next eight years? How do you sell that?
Miss Bianca
Yeah, but let’s keep talking about how Al Franken should resign, because none of this tax shit matters NEARLY as much as demonstrating Democratic moral purity to an admiring world.
Duane
Doug, did you mean grifters? Grafters around the world are going to be mad at you.
Judge Crater
George Carlin was right: they’ve (plutocrats) have got us by the balls; and they’re coming for our social security and health care. This is class warfare from the 19th century. Ryan and Trump and the Koch brothers are the vanguard of a steamroller of greed and “free market” capitalism that will crush the poor and middle class. Destroying America’s social safety net is the first order of business. Social Darwinism and Randian self-interest demand no less.
Major Major Major Major
I saw that yesterday. I’m impressed, in a way, that they managed to make it even worse.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@TenguPhule:
Once again, Scam Alito said “not true” when Obama excoriated SCOTUS for opening up the political process to manipulation.
Did the Weathermen have a membership oath, and what are the dues?
mai naem mobile
@burnspbesq: you haven’t been paying attention for the past 20 years. They’ll blame it on Obama ofcourse. If there’s a Dem congress after 2018 it will be blamed on them too.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Judge Crater:
I do plan to take a steaming shit on the grave of each Koch brother, as I’ll probably survive them. I would also like to leave gifts on the markers for Fred Koch, Fred Trump and Paul Ryan’s father.
satby
@Miss Bianca: I know, right?
It’s enough to make me seriously rethink the whole expatriate thing, because we’re clearly not going to be able to turn this country around when we fold at every push-back.
Nicole
I swear, I think it’s part of a long game to make American more subservient to the elites. Most revolutions start in the middle class, because we’re not too busy trying to not starve and have time to think about things. Reduce the middle class, and the elites reduce the risk of losing their heads.
oatler.
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Are you sure you’ll outlive them? Those 90 year old billionaires have a different health plan than us mere mortals…
Doug R
That $50-$200,000 demo is who voted for trump! WTF are they thinking?
TenguPhule
@burnspbesq:
Its Obama’s fault.
TenguPhule
@satby: Sadly, countries you want to get into have very strict standards for who gets to stay there.
It requires money and desired skills.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: And this isn’t even the final version.
Archon
@Nicole:
Any political revolution is going to have to come from the professional class. The working class is way too divided on culture and race to be an actual political front against the elites (i.e Republicans)
Emma
@satby: AS I said below, my fellow democrats have convinced me to find a nice foreign country to spend my retirement. How the hell we got an equivalence from “chasing teenagers in malls and assaulting them” to “behaving inappropriately to an adult during a raunchy skit”?
The Moar You Know
@satby: This reply is kinda for everyone, not just you. Do it. I wish to God I had when I could have – now I’m too old and was always too poor. If you have the money or are young enough to be taken in, do not wait, get out now. The handwriting is on the wall for this country, has been for almost 20 years now.
Take a trip to Europe, see how, as fucked up as they are, they deal with their problems. We do not. The difference is visible and obvious. Take the trip, figure out where you want to move and then GO!
Mnemosyne
@Doug R:
They’re thinking that they’re happy to pay higher taxes as long as those taxes go towards keeping the Blacks and Browns down.
TenguPhule
@Emma:
If you find out, please let me know.
hueyplong
Mistrial declared in Menendez trial.
Ruckus
@JPL:
Doesn’t that make you feel patriotic, helping those great Americans invest in bigger yachts, bigger jets, more wives…….
Bokonon
Shorter GOP – look over there! Time to revisit Bill Clinton’s behavior around women! Benghazi!!! Obama golfing!!! ANY DISTRACTION!!!!
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: Yeah, I remember going through several cycles of not being able to believe they made it even worse during the healthcare thing.
JPL
@Ruckus: Imagine how many elephant tusks the Trump boys can now bring home. I’m proud to be American where at least I know I’m free.
I despise all of them who think increasing taxes on the poor and middle class is okay.
rikyrah
@hueyplong:
For real?
LongHairedWeirdo
The GOP response: “Oh, the law will be modified before then. We’ll be able to pressure the Democrats by screaming next year that if they don’t vote to modify our bill, they’re voting for higher taxes on working families. And the news media will cheerfully report our accusations, and any especially tone deaf responses by Democrats, having forgotten all about how we built this monster.”
They believe it, too. They nearly pulled it off with the Bushies’ tax cuts.
Just remember: This bill makes each dollar paid in wages and benefits cost employers more.
“It will create jobs” is a flat out lie; it will cause employers to shed jobs where possible, because those jobs will reduce profits by much more than they do now, when taxes are higher.
The GOP knows this; they saw it starting in the Reagan years, they’ve seen it continuing since then. But face it: they have a huge propaganda arm that will say that “making jobs cost more money means more jobs” and they’ll say it Very Seriously, and people will believe them.
It’s almost… it’s almost like, these corporate tax reductions, and pass through tax reductions… it’s almost like they *benefit* people in their propaganda arm. It’s almost like, this is intended to bribe those people to stay steady, even though it’s clear that the GOP could screw up pouring a glass of water.
Oh, wait, Trump’s election means the end of political correctness right?
This is a bribe. The GOP made a lot of big noise about being able to do things; they can’t, because their poisoning of the well had led to a lot of brain-damaged people who can screw up the process. Clean, safe water suddenly looks like a much better idea when you realize your own legislators are drinking the same water (now with extra Kool Aid to hide the taste of the lead).
O. Felix Culpa
@rikyrah: For real. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/menendez-jury-says-again-that-it-is-deadlocked/2017/11/16/c6ae9096-c951-11e7-aa96-54417592cf72_story.html
eclare
@The Moar You Know: This is the plan of a friend of mine, depending on where you go, it’s not that expensive and health care is free (and better). And of course the government doesn’t threaten to take your health care away every other month.
hueyplong
@rikyrah: For real.
Between that and Franken’s statement that he will cooperate with an ethics probe unlikely to take place tonight (because the trolls won’t be scheduling it), it looks like the first 48 NO votes for the tax heist are in place.
jl
@Duane:@Duane:
” Doug, did you mean grifters? Grafters around the world are going to be mad at you. ”
I come from a family of all-star grafters. Why, my grandpappy could graft a watermelon vine onto walnut tree, and get walnermelons.
The GOP is grafting a load of toxic and vile burdens onto poor, working and middle class, particularly kids and families, to scrape up some dough for billionaires and giant corporations. All so they can push this garbage through reconciliation and if need be shove it onto the country with 50-50 tie in the Senate plus a dense Pence vote.
So, I guess a case of grafters gone grifter, and gone bad.
Major Major Major Major
@LongHairedWeirdo: How does this make jobs cost employers more?
eclare
@Major Major Major Major: With a lower rate, deductions for wages and benefits are worth less. Of course corporations don’t pay a flat 35%, and under this they won’t pay a flat 20% due to other tax techniques, so who knows how it shakes out?
jl
@Major Major Major Major: I’ve been thinking about that and trying to get info on it. One thing I do know is that some important benefits a business may want to give to an employee for training and education will now be taxable, either for employee or the business.
So, let’s take CA as an example. Say a local industry is in partnership with a local community college for a training program, and there is a work study program so kid can work and take training classes at the same time, and finance it through work study for employer or peer instruction for college. If college forgives tuition and fees for these students, GOP plan will mean either student or employer will have to pay taxes on those fees. The forgiven tuition and fees are considered income now. Someone will have to finance the taxes on that. There may be other horrible stuff that increases the cost of employees in addition.
Also, a very specific move to greatly favor income from passive investment investment and existing wealth over income from any kind of work or if income is not high enough. Look at who was cut out of expanded tax breaks of pass-through income: anyone one who actually puts in work of any kind, or who is not ultra rich.
This is a tax bill for plutocrats who don’t have to do anything at all anymore to get income off of their wealth. Everyone else gets a higher effective tax rate on their income from actual work (net increased deductions). That is from low wage unskilled workers through affluent doctors and engineers and other professionals. And interesting that affluent near rich seem to be punished by this bill compared to those right below and above them. I guess Trumpsters need to betray everyone, even part of economy that provided a lot of political support.
If Longhairedweirdo has some links on specifics, I’d love to see them.
Duane
@jl: Republican attempts to change the tax code through reconciliation would be funny if the end result wasn’t so damaging. Democrats aren’t against tax cuts, done the right way.It says it all when they can’t get enough Democratic support to pass their plan without the reconciliation dodge.
catclub
@LongHairedWeirdo:
They MOSTLY pulled it off, only the very highest income tax rates were returned to pre-2001 levels.
catclub
@LongHairedWeirdo:
This! High taxes encourage investment, rather than paying out dividends. (Salaries are considered investment in that view.)
jl
@jl: ” I guess Trumpsters need to betray everyone, ”
I meant to type ” I guess Trumpsters need to betray everyone except the very rich who don’t need to do any work for their income, “
catclub
@Duane:
when they go the NO Democratic votes needed, route, it only takes one senate prima donna, and two senators with obscure objections
to kill the bill.
This shows how great a job Harry Reid did in getting Joe Lieberman and Mary Landrieu, and other iffy Democrats to back the ACA.
Patricia Kayden
@Miss Bianca: Franken has sincerely apologized (at least that’s how I read his latest apology). Not sure if that will be enough so that he can keep his seat though. In any case, he should see if this story blows over and if he can explain his behavior. If he can’t, he should resign and be replaced by another Democratic Senator.
Gin & Tonic
@Patricia Kayden: Resign and then what? Don sackcloth and ashes? Work for no pay in a leper colony? What would be sufficient penance?
jl
It’s hard to disentangle the evil from the ignorance and stupidity. There really aren’t enough private long term high-pay off investment opportunities for the corporate tax cut to do much to increase real investment. Most of it in the US is through residential and commercial real estate construction. The GOP tax scam is like pushing on a string there wrt to current US economy. Cohn asked for a show of hands with CEOs to demonstrate the wonders the tax scam would produce. Very few hands went up.
I have read that there is a split in the business community about how much the tax plan will help or hurt, but have not had time to find a detailed account of who is one what side.
But, Cohn is an ignorant fool, apart from his malicious intent.
article:
CEOs raise doubts about Gary Cohn’s top argument for cutting the corporate tax rate right in front of him
Many CEOs did not raise their hands when asked about whether they would increase their capital expenditure because of the GOP’s tax reform plan.
The CEOs were gathered at an event with Gary Cohn hosted by the Wall Street Journal.
There’s little evidence to support the claim that tax breaks boost employment.
CNBC
Tucker Higgins @tuckerhiggins
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/15/ceos-raise-doubts-about-gary-cohns-top-argument-for-cutting-the-corporate-tax-rate-right-in-front-of-him.html
Stan
@The Moar You Know:
The hell with that. No one is going to drive us out of this country. its OURS. it doesn’t belong ti trump or his movement.
jl
Amazing:
Steven Dennis
@StevenTDennis
Most Senators I talked to yesterday in both parties had no idea CBO said the tax bill would trigger ~$100B/year in automatic entitlement cuts, including $25B from Medicare, because of the Paygo law.
https://twitter.com/StevenTDennis/status/931137457306918912
Everyone needs to call their Senators and make sure they are aware of the Medicare and Medicaid cuts that will be forced by the GOP tax scam.
Edit: and call your GOP House Congressjerk who voted for it this morning tell (jeeringly with cackling evil joy) them that they are toast in the next election. Stick a damn fork in them, after this gets out to general voting public.
Jeffro
Why are we talking tax cuts (for the rich, poor, middle classes…for corporations…for anyone) when we’re racking up huge deficits as it is? Am I the only true conservative left in America?!?
;)
lurker dean
so the house version of the tax bill passed. very worried about the votes in the senate. only 1 firm no, johnson, who i don’t truist.
collins, murkowski, and mccain are quiet. i’m worried the senate will strip out the individual mandate repeal they have in their version, then collins and murkowski will vote yes. of course, none of the fiscal conservatives like corker and flake have said no either. i’ve made my calls and sent faxes to out of state senators and it’s pissing me off we have to do this every few weeks.
Sanky
@Stan: Seconded!
Now since we’re all still here, how do we get the WaPo to quit with this shit already:
Nobody cares, WaPo!
Sanky
@Jeffro: Let’s do the math:
Republican House + Republican Senate + Republican Preznit = deficits don’t matter.
You’re welcome.
Spanky
I don’t know who this “Sanky” guy is, but he seems to have a problem typing.
Unmoderation, please?
jl
@Sanky: My theory is that those suckers will buy anything. so appeal to them for the profitable ad traffic. What a dream demo for selling people random crud.
Hoodie
@jl: CEOs boost capital expenditure to meet expected demand, period. That capital can be borrowed at historically low rates and the assets can be depreciated anyway. They’ll use the tax breaks for stock buybacks and dividends. Wall St. and corporate suits get all the gains. Why do people fall for this nonsense?
TenguPhule
So all the lower tax breaks expire in 2023, leaving Republicans presumably in a good position to blame Democrats in 2024 for raising people’s taxes if the breaks are not made permanent.
And a majority of voters will probably still be dumb enough to fall for it. Again.
jl
@Hoodie: ” They’ll use the tax breaks for stock buybacks and dividends. ” That, and asset appreciation bubbles have been driving forces for increases in stock market since late 1990s, I think.
Part of why people buy the nonsense is that the US media does a horrid job of covering economics and finance. People make fun of the goofy cable business channels, but actually they give a wider range of opinion and some actual analysis than evening news and CNN. When I look for clips of interviews with real experts who know something about how the economy works, I see people on cable business channels I never see other places. Stiglitz and Shiller are examples. Except the Fox News effort which from what I saw was propoganda, but I think only three or four people ever watched that.
Repatriated
@TenguPhule: The counter-argument is that it was (will have been) rammed through as a gift to the obscenely wealthy. Simple remedy is to keep the low-end cuts and revert the high-end cuts to what the rates are now, perhaps claw back a bit too but that does not need to be a priority.
Nelle
So. We are among the few who left the country after Bush was re-elected. I love our other country and am proud to be a citizen there. It is complicated though. We lived away from our children (half way around the world) for nearly ten years. We saw them at least every 18 months. But we sure missed them. When someone recruited my husband to work back here (and he was 70 at the time), he decided that he wanted to come back and get to know his son better. I agreed. We’ve been back here for two and a half years. Other than meeting my new grandchild, it has been miserable. And with the expense of healthcare, even with Medicare, I’m looking at going back. When my sisters came to visit me down there (NZ), they said, “You’ve found your place.” Unfortunately, the family is here. But, with what they are doing with another bunch of billions cut from Medicare, it might be that I need to move back.
Patricia Kayden
@Gin & Tonic: If he can explain this incident away, including forcibly kissing a woman (which I consider to be sexual assault), he can ride out the storm and keep his seat. Not sure if that will happen though in the political climate we’re in. What do you think should happen to him for his misconduct?
TenguPhule
@Repatriated:
We made that same argument against the Bush Tax Cuts. And let me tell you it was still a fucking shitfest to revert the old rates for the top tier.
LurkerNoLonger
@lurker dean: This thing actually passed?! Boy Republican house members in blue states are fuuuuuuucked.
jl
@LurkerNoLonger: I think if one of them is your Rep would be fun to call them up and tell them (edit: I really mean, laugh, taunt, and jeer at them). Might make a difference if the mess gets to reconciliation.
TenguPhule
@LurkerNoLonger: They have wingnut welfare guaranteed retirements.
lurker dean
@LurkerNoLonger: yeah, not even really close, 227 to 205. many republican house members who didn’t have to vote yes did anyway. i sure hope there is payback for this.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/us/politics/house-tax-overhaul-bill.html
Roger Moore
@jl:
I think a huge part of it is that MSM coverage tends to be incredibly superficial. Most of the radio and TV tends to give only a very brief coverage of business news, and that tends to focus on stock and bond markets, with occasional repeats of the government’s latest employment reports. Print news does a little bit better, but a lot of the extra material they report is regurgitated press releases, occasionally slightly rewritten to hide the source. There’s very little investigative reporting in the business section.
HeleninEire
@Emma: Come to Ireland. It’s great here.
Brachiator
Wow. Here’s a bit of crazy news. A gift from Trump to his sons?
jl
@Roger Moore: I think corruption caused by news organization ownership by huge corporate conglomerates plays a big role. It all has a very Big Corporate slant. And places like NPR and public radio follow, in some cases worse, though maybe that is fear or political interference and attack.
LurkerNoLonger
@jl: Faso voted no, but that’s not gonna save him. He was all in on ACA repeal.
HeleninEire
@satby: The thing is not really about push back. The real question is “how old are you?” Can you wait for the push back. I decided I could not.
“America always does the right thing. After exhausting every other possibly.”
/Winston Churchill.
Gin & Tonic
@Patricia Kayden: You’re the one arguing for him to resign his seat in the Senate for something that occurred prior to him being in that seat. If this had happened while he was a Senator, ok, maybe. I’m trying to gauge what sort of penance would be enough, though. Resign his seat and then what? Run for Governor of Minnesota, or is that off-limits? Wait two years and run for the House? Is that ok? He’s 66 years old and in good health; presuming he doesn’t want to sit on his porch and collect Social Security, what would it be permissible for him to do, if you had your way?
TenguPhule
@HeleninEire: I’m beginning to think Churchill was an optimist.
Brachiator
@jl:
Math is hard and most economics news is deadly dull, as are most business reporters. People will change the channel or turn the page.
Baud
@hueyplong: I’m glad to hear this. Even if he is retried and convicted, it’ll be well after the new Dem governor takes over, so there won’t be any issue of Dems voting to expel him if he doesn’t resign.
LongHairedWeirdo
@Major Major Major Major: Payroll and benefits are deductible. If they’re deductible at the corporate, or individual rate, now, they’ll be deductible at the corporate, or pass-through rate, after the bill passes. So: an S-Corp (a common pass-through) that paid $200k in salary and benefits for non-owners, at a 35% tax rate, it only really costs $130k. After, it will cost $160k.
(Just to clarify: the “real” cost is “how much money would I get, if, instead of paying X_Business_Expense, I just eliminated it and took it home as profit?” And the answer is, it’s the amount of the expense, less the taxes you’d have to pay on it. Back when the individual rate was as high as 70%, a salary expense was cheap, because taking the money home instead only put 30% of that salary in your pocket.)
Here’s a real kicker: to shave costs, the money that can be directly attributable to salary for the owner (say, a lawyer, or a partner in a law firm) is taxed at the individual rate, still. It’s only profit above and beyond that gets taxed at the lower rate… and expenses (like salaries and benefits) come out of the non-salary portion. This bill encourages cutting all salaries (even your own!) in favor of pass-through earnings.
I’m sorry I can’t provide links – this is just simple arithmetic.
jl
@LurkerNoLonger: OK, one-tenth of a cheer for Faso, and I wish him well in very well-deserved private life.
@Brachiator: I agree something to that. Business channels are kind of like sports or garden beat, maybe. Viewers have enough of an interest in the subject matter to not put up with complete BS, and more willing follow serious analysis and variety of views, even if they don’t like, or disagree ideologically, with a lot of what they hear.
Not sure how ideology plays into sports and garden beat, but whatever…
jl
@LongHairedWeirdo: thanks. If you have a link to current situation on that, I’ll read it closely. I quit paying close attention to pass-through issue since I thought expansion of that break was taken out of the bill for most employers for whom it would make a big difference.
catclub
@LurkerNoLonger:
Just look at all of them who voted to repeal the ACA and are getting crucified for that. Oh, … wait, nobody seems to care about that ancient history.
jl
@Brachiator: Though on second thought, those news actor shitheads get paid multi millions of dollars to figure out how to get people to pay attention to important stuff. Theoretically. Their corporate paymasters have decreed, explicitly or implicitly, that effort is not needed for many important subjects.
catclub
@HeleninEire:
Possibly, probably, my black hen,
She lays eggs in the relative when,
She doesn’t lay eggs in the Positive Now,
Because she’s unable to postulate how.
hueyplong
@Baud: I agree that the entire game was surviving at least until Christie is gone. An appointed replacement would presumably have less baggage.
Baud
@hueyplong: If they don’t retry him, I hope he gets primaried. We can do better in New Jersey (although, see Chris Christie).
Brachiator
@jl:
Disagree. People don’t care about these subjects. Never have. It’s tough to make them interesting.
Same with science stories. I was listening to the radio on my commute the other day and one of the hosts on a show became increasingly agitated and annoyed when a co-host insisted on talking about a science story, finally saying, that’s boring! And returned to talking about her favorite sports team. Economics never gets discussed except in reductive and stale terms about liberals and conservatives.
Repatriated
@catclub: upding for Space Child’s Mother Goose!
Florida Frog
@HeleninEire: Like so many of us here, I have loved reading your comments about your new life and am delighted that you can stay in Ireland. For those of us who are ineligible for dual citizenship, does Ireland allow foreigners to have permanent residency status. The frog household is retired and would not be seeking a work visa.
hueyplong
@Baud: So is McConnell’s play to try to get Menendez booted on ethics charges before Christie leaves in January?
Doing that right after a failure to convict in court looks bad, but Supreme Court Justice Garland tells me it’s fairly clear they don’t care much about appearances.
catclub
@Brachiator:
retirement economics gets more and more interesting over time.
Baud
@hueyplong: He might try it, but the pressure is off the Dems to go for it, and he can only be expelled with 2/3 votes, so Dems would need to go along.
hueyplong
@Baud: Sounds good. That seat seems safely Dem.
TenguPhule
@catclub: That’s an inflation opinion of the matter.
Roger Moore
@jl:
My gut feeling is that it’s primarily incompetence and laziness rather than malice. The stock and bond markets make a great subject for news media because they provide material for a story just about every day of the year. The market will always move up, move down, or stay the same, and that will always provide material for a brief story. Even on days when the markets aren’t active, they can get material about what foreign markets are doing, or make predictions about how that day’s news will affect the markets the next day. Just like sports, it’s a perfect vehicle for producing daily stories and filling air time or column inches.
I agree that there is more pernicious going on than that, but I think it’s mostly a secondary effect. The predominant focus on the big markets gets people to think about those markets as being what’s really important, so they focus on how things will affect the stock market rather than how it will affect the broader economy. But again, that’s an effect of the sloppy, lazy way business is reported on rather than some deeper scheme.
cmorenc
@burnspbesq:
They want to fulfill their ideological dreams by cutting taxes while they still have control of the Presidency and Congress, realizing that the window may close in 2018 or 2020 and not come again for decades. But their motivation to cut taxes is not merely greed (though of course that is important to them). Their other main goal of at least equal importance is to severely undermine the funding needed to sustain progressive government and then, if and when they eventually do lose control of the presidency and/or congress, resume such ruthless scorched-earth obstructionism that it will be structurally difficult to reverse the tax cuts or successfully restore the institutions of progressive government the GOP has destroyed, let alone advance them. THAT is why McConnell is so reluctant to get rid of the filibuster, when doing so would save him and Ryan the trouble of attempting to frame legislation so it can be passed via reconciliation with a bare majority. He might need to use it himself to save tax cuts and whatever governmental dismantlement the GOP manages to achieve in the current window of opportunity.
HeleninEire
@Florida Frog: I’m not sure about how that works. I know about Ireland born people. Ask a front pager to give your email. I will look for you. Love to you.