… Perhaps what worries the fretting men is that this is about more than ending workplace harassment. It is the fear that society is being refashioned away from codes set by men. If women can refashion workplaces this way, who knows what other unwelcome changes may follow? Far better, then, to grab the warm blanket of victimhood and scream “witch-hunt”.
As so often in recent social furores, those with the greatest advantages in life claim a victim status they would not want to earn, portraying the erosion of a smidgen of their ascendancy as a monstrous purge instead of accepting that it may just be necessary to surrender a few of the spoils of the longest winning streak in history. — Robert Shrimsley, Financial Times
.
Some of you are already fans of John Scalzi, but nobody should miss this little gem:
Hey there! As most of you know, I’m a dude. And like most dudes, I’ve been watching this whole post-Weinstein era we’re in with some interest. And because I am reasonably well-known on the internet for talking about things, I’ve had people, mostly dudes, contact me via social media and email with various questions about what’s going on and my opinions on these topics. So, let me go ahead and address several of them at once, with the help of my fictional interlocutor…
I’m worried that someone might call me out for having been a harassing piece of shit at some point in my past.
Well, let me ask you: Were you, in the past, in fact, a harassing piece of shit?
Maybe?
I’m gonna take that as a “yes.”
I wish you wouldn’t.
Too late! And here’s the thing: If in fact at some point in the past you were a harassing piece of shit to someone, probably to a woman but really, to anyone, then you deserve to be called out on your actions…
Yes, but now there’s consequences!
Well, yes, there are. There’s no statute of limitations on consequences, which apparently comes as an unhappy surprise to a lot of dudes. A lot of the mewling about this is, “well, it was so long ago.” It might be! But your actions almost certainly had consequences for the person you harassed (or assaulted, or raped) and may have altered the course of their life — caused them to change their career or quit a job to avoid you, or given them psychological or physical damage.
There were always consequences to your actions. It’s just that now you might have to share in them…
But why should I change the way I do things? If they have a problem with how I say or do things, it’s their problem, not mine.
Fine, don’t.
Wait, what?
Dude, I’m not the boss of you. If you want to continue to make people uncomfortable with your presence and actions, then follow your bliss. Just don’t expect to have a whole lot of friends who aren’t complete assholes. Also, be aware that if you keep that shit up, there’s an excellent chance that sooner or later five or six people are going to speak out about you and your asshole actions, all at the same time, and then you’ll be in the same boat as the “actual” harassers, i.e., being an actual harasser, because you didn’t think you had to learn.
Which is fine! Really, it’s fine. Go ahead, do that, it’s fine. Totally fine…
mike in dc
When I was in my 20s, up until the age of 28, I was prone to inappropriate behavior towards women, primarily as a result of being socially awkward and not knowing better. I never went past a certain point, but nonetheless I did make several women uncomfortable. Things came to a head as a result of an HR meeting(I had a crush on a co-worker and did not handle it well), and I had a come-to-Jesus moment. The remorse, regret and shame I felt was very real, and I worked hard to learn from my experience and conform my behavior to professional standards and expectations , both at work and in my personal life. In my case I was slow to pick up on social cues, or willfully chose to “creatively reinterpret” them. As a matter of fact, if and when a woman clearly stated she wasn’t interested, I stopped my behavior. But that I behaved in a way that compelled women to clearly state their disinterest was indicative of inappropriate conduct.
What’s the point of my personal story? One, that this behavior is not uncommon. Two, that there can be a variety of reasons and motives behind such behavior, and understanding such things may help in addressing the problem. Three, that many men are likely capable of reforming their behavior and recognizing either their ignorance or their offensiveness.
Mai.naem.mobile
I had an experience which is kind of funny. Funny for me anyway. Ive thought about this since all the sexually inappropriate behavior came up. I was in HS anf taking a class at community college. I think I was 16 because I had my license. Anyhow, I was sitting in the car doing some last minute studying for a test before going in. I was minding my business and this guy has parked next to me and I can feel he’s watching me. I finally turn my face in his direction anf he’s pleasuring himself and exposing himself. And,me I am a sheltered naive teenager from a conservative south asian family. I didn’t even know what exposing oneself meant. I just started laughing at him. It wasn’t any strategic move on my part,it was just an honest reaction. I honestly don’t remember the guys reaction because it was real quick but I bet he wasn’t expecting that reaction. I just pulled my car out and reparked my car and went in class. I told my sister about it and we had an OMG laugh about it. There was no way I would have ever told my parents about it because it would have been too embarrassing to explain that.
John Revolta
the fretting men
Totally my next band name
Kelly
My wife and I spent sometime on http://www.healthcare.gov today. Made a simple spreadsheet of our options. Mostly settled on a choice. Feeling pretty good, constructive use of a very rainy day. Check the ol Web for current news, OMG I’m going back to bed and hiding under the covers!!
Mart
Hell of a comment mike in dc. Always fun to read about changing our ways as I scroll past links that will let me know how unbelievable she looks thirty years later!
Major Major Major Major
Scalzi touches briefly on something I’ve not seen mentioned elsewhere, which is gay men. We all have stories of guys acting like this to us, often in bars or at parties, but in places with a high enough concentration (gay neighborhoods, pride events) on the streets too. In some situations–far too many for my taste–lecherous behavior is even celebrated. And I’m not talking about, like, sex parties or whatever, just drag shows and some bars and such.
I’ve been reluctant to bring it up because it’s my impression that the conversation is supposed to be focused on women and women’s stories right now. That is all.
mike in dc
@Mart:
The ones that get me are the “she didn’t know why the crowd was cheering” clickbait opposite the various sexual abuse/harassment threads.
VOR
I recently watched the Netflix series “13 Reasons Why” about a 17 year old girl who commits suicide. Part of the reason is ongoing harassment. While watching, I became aware I had done things not dissimilar long ago when I was young and stupid. It was startling to see in the show how badly that behavior could hurt someone.
lamh36
Excellent links?
Here’s a great one from Booman Tributne: Obama Warned Us This Would Happen
FUQN’ HELL YES HE DID…
ETA: This was AFTER Trump’s election
debbie
@mike in dc:
As to your third point, it’s the men who see no need to reform their behavior or who feel entitled to continue their behavior — those are the men who are the problem.
For me, the men were always much older and in positions of authority over me. I had to learn to swear like a lumberjack (or whatever the expression is) to get them to back off. It was very, very uncomfortable.
@Mai.naem.mobile:
I had a guy in a raincoat expose himself when I was 13. I too laughed, but didn’t think to shout out how unimpressive it was. Pity.
different-church-lady
Yeah, like, a man needing to be competent at his job. That one probably gives a lot of them the screaming heebie-jeebies.
Betty Cracker
@mike in dc: Thank you for sharing that story, and kudos to you for learning from the experience and becoming a better man. It’s an important reminder that people can do better. All of us.
TenguPhule
Sorry Anne,
But having been personally subject to just such a witchhunt when I was 9 years old, with all the resulting trust issues and other damage which contributed to making me the bitter asshole I am today, I’m gonna predict that innocent lives are still going to be ruined, just tilting more towards the other direction.
WaterGirl
@debbie: My friend and I were bicycle riding on a nice spring day (decades ago). Stopped at a light, I look over at the car next to me and the guy is masturbating. Being young and stupid, we took off after him so we could write down his license plate and report him. The cops found him, picked him up, and brought him over to my house so we could identify him! What were they thinking?
jl
@Major Major Major Major:
” I’ve been reluctant to bring it up because it’s my impression that the conversation is supposed to be focused on women and women’s stories right now. That is all. ”
I think there are far more women and girls who are victims of this stuff out there than anyone else, and with all the accounts coming out now, probably that should be the focus.
But is true that a lot of people have had to put up with mild to severe assaults at some point in their lives.
i’m a hetero guy. I myself have two gropings by force as a kid and one attempted assault in late teens. Nothing serious happened, In the last, probably because I could fight back very effectively (sometimes I still think I should done more damage, but after he was off me and running off, I let it go) and a security guard was in hailing distance. from adult men. These forcible and coercive assaults are more common than we want to think.
Gindy51
My favorite example, and there are so many given the jobs I’ve held over the years, was when some dude exposed himself while in traffic. I drove a Legg’s panty hose van, basically an automatic UPS truck painted white with Legg’s and eggs on it.
The dude is wracking off so I grabbed my ice cold Big gulp diet coke and dumped it on him…..
debbie
@WaterGirl:
Way to go, you! I hope he was humiliated out of that behavior.
cokane
ehhh i think this smug bullshit doesn’t really help. if anything, the Franken case (if true) should show us that there may not be a clear, obvious line between being a sexist piece of shit and being a good guy. While there’s obviously a clear case of what ACTS cross the line, the idea that good people have never committed such acts doesnt ring true to me. and people were teenagers and early 20s as well.
debbie
@Gindy51:
Yay to you too!
Chip Daniels
Its good to keep our eye on the prize, which is to refashion societal behavior, not just point the finger of shame.
Because our society does have a hard time navigating sexual mores and women’s dignity and empowerment.
Ever notice how the most priggish and puritanical folks tend to have the most lurid and degrading sexual offenses?
Notice how our society is horrified of underage sexuality, yet practically fetishizes 18 year old models as the epitome of erotic perfection?
I think good behavior requires a certain degree of loving acceptance of human frailty and a willingness to help people find their path back. As well as a willingness to accept how we sometimes unwittingly contribute to it.
Mike in NC
Leaking Keystone pipeline in SD has been shut down.
debbie
@cokane:
Franken has admitted it is true, and yes, he acted like a piece of shit, both in attitude and in forcing a kiss upon an unwilling woman. Can you imagine coming upon a photograph of him leering over her when she was sleeping? It would be humiliating.
Roger Moore
@mike in dc:
I think your experience represents why a lot of men are terrified of tightening sexual harassment policies. They’re worried that they’re going to get nailed to the wall for doing something that’s more a result of being awkward or clueless than any kind of bad intent. I don’t think that’s a realistic worry- they’re unlikely to get a severe punishment for a minor transgression, especially if it’s a first offense- but it’s where the fear is coming from.
debbie
@Mike in NC:
Wow. Seems like a sizeable leak.
cokane
@debbie: fwiw franken has not admitted the forced kiss was true
ETA: “i do not remember [it] as Leann does” his statement said of the kiss.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@debbie: did he admit to the kiss part of it? but yeah, that picture is gross, and not something a “good guy” does at 55. If it weren’t for that picture I’d be much more willing to dismiss this as something cooked up by a Hannity regular– a possibility I”m still not ruling out entirely, but I don’t think she has the burden of proof at this point.
MomSense
@mike in dc:
Thank you for sharing that. I think it’s important to acknowledge that these behaviors don’t happen in isolation. We are all soaking in misogyny and so many other oppressive norms. My mother, a feminist and someone who was definitely a trailblazer in terms of career, says things sometimes that are cringeworthy. She grew up in a culture that imparted so many messages that still affect her and sometimes it’s almost like she falls back into a default mode that is what she grew up with and not the feminism she lived.
That you were able to be fearlessly honest with yourself and then change your behavior is to be commended. Now we all need to figure out how to be more proactive and change our culture. It won’t be easy.
debbie
@cokane:
He said he doesn’t remember it. Google for the photograph in question. He’s acting like a fucking high school idiot.
jl
@Roger Moore: Maybe. But of all the stories coming out, Franken’s forcible and inappropriate kissing is only example of a borderline case I can think of (though not the pic). All the other famous cases are examples of behavior that is obviously way over line of being inappropriate, and most of it is actionable in court, civil or criminal.
So, I think that fear is exaggerated, and mostly either from people who do have something obviously wrong to hide, or a generalized (and inappropriate) anxiety about losing social status and power in a new less authoritarian and patriarchal regime.
germy
BBA
Reposting this:
I admit I was shitposting in the earlier megathread. And now I’d like to speak my true opinions, without exaggeration for trollish effect:
I think we should always believe women. Thus I believe Leeann Tweeden when she said Al Franken harassed her. And I believe her when she said she accepted his apology.
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t know. Forcing a kiss and doing what he did in that picture seem like similar behavior to me.
I haven’t stopped supporting him; I do now know that he’s an asshole.
Brachiator
I’m going to have an interesting read on my commute home today.
@Chip Daniels:
No. Louis CK didn’t strike me as priggish or puritanical.
No. Silly and reductive nonsense.
different-church-lady
@cokane:
During this entire ugly month-that’s-felt-like-ten-years I have been resisting the urge to do a taxonomy of creepers. Hard lines are so much cleaner, and a tiered system is easy to abuse through bias. But I guess there’s really no avoiding it any longer. Some mistakes are clearly worse than others, and some actions are not mere mistakes.
So, I guess we all just strap in for a really messy ride.
Fair Economist
@WaterGirl: I’d say you were smart and the cops were stupid.
cokane
@debbie: so you agree he disputes the kiss. i saw the photo, it’s posted on this blog. I’m not sure what you’re arguing at this point.
debbie
@germy:
I believe it’s now two Rs and one D who have resigned. At this rate, the chamber should be empty before Thanksgiving!
debbie
@cokane:
No. Not remembering is not disputing. He doesn’t deny it. What I’m arguing is that no one should be making any excuses for his behavior. Especially since Franken isn’t.
ETA: Even without the kiss, Franken’s behavior in that photo was totally humiliating to her. He had no right to do that.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
OT:
justawriter
David Gerrold (the guy who thought up the tribbles on Star Trek) had a post today about how liberals rightly see the current situation as a way to make things better for women, conservatives see it as something they can weaponize to destroy their enemies (us). It makes me worry that we will see the headline in late May, 2020, “Female Senator, presumptive Presidential candidate, slammed by harassment claims.”
Starfish
@Major Major Major Major: Please feel free to let me know if I am off base here because I am not gay.
I think that I remember reading that once being gay was normalized with gay people getting married and having kids, there will be less of this lecherous behavior going on. There is still some signaling that people seem to do to let other people know that they are gay, but gay people seem much more mainstream than they were in the past. I am just barely under forty, and my younger sister and I know gay men who are married and have kids. I don’t remember there being a lot of gay men with children ten or twenty years ago.
Suzanne
Having a really hard day/week. Not feeling up to the holidays. So.
I will weigh in on the Very Important Issue of the Day, which is CLEARLY that Blake Shelton is not even close to the Sexiest Man Alive. He’s not even the Sexiest Dude Working in the Lumber Department on Tuesday.
Cacti
I condemn Al Franken and I have always opposed the broccoli mandate.
Am I sufficiently virtuous now?
Baud
@Suzanne: OMG. Can we please unite around that??!!
cokane
@debbie: “i don’t remember the rehearsal skit as Leann does” is not saying “i don’t recall the rehearsal” it’s quite literally disputing her recollection of the events. it’s saying “i recall the rehearsal skit and it doesn’t include a forced kiss”. least that’s how i read it. And I don’t see a staged photo in the presence of others as proving that someone would necessarily force a full-on tongue-kiss on someone else in private. I haven’t made excuses for Franken, rather I was challenging Scalzi’s white and black hot take on this issue.
Baud
@different-church-lady: I don’t see how that’s avoidable.
TenguPhule
@debbie:
Only the photo is true. The rest is in dispute. Read his statement carefully. He’s apologizing but its for the photo and his behavior in general. Not an admission that he kissed her forcefully against her will.
schrodingers_cat
@Suzanne: Who is Blake Shelton.
lamh36
Sigh….so Donald Trump = Bill Clinton, and Roy Moore = Al Franken!!!
SMH…I’m done…
SatanicPanic
@germy: he seemd like he wes a goodman.
(I’ll show myself out)
TenguPhule
@Roger Moore:
And you would be wrong.
It gets very serious, very fast.
Baud
@justawriter: I agree. It’s a real concern.
TenguPhule
@lamh36: Of course they did.
Fifth Column media.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
@cokane: Is it possible you’re either mixing up or not clearly distinguishing between the photo of Franken touching/hovering over Tweeden’s breasts and her description of him forcibly kissing her? I haven’t seen a photo of the latter – if it exists, does someone have a link? Franken has not disputed the photo or the action it shows; he’s said he doesn’t remember the kiss incident in the same way she does.
(Not excusing/rationalizing anything here, just trying to get the story straight.)
TenguPhule
@Cacti: Where do you stand on peas and kale?
zhena gogolia
@Major Major Major Major:
No, that’s a good point (sez a woman).
MomSense
@Suzanne:
Sending you a big hug.
Shelton isn’t even the sexiest guy at my local hardware store.
Baud
@lamh36: Hmmm. So when do we hold Trump to account again?
zhena gogolia
@lamh36:
Chills down my spine.
lamh36
Fox News Poll…I still don’t believe it though…esp since this was before the Franken mess that the even Roy Moore used to try to “redeem” his situation. Besides which, it has Jones as +23 among women…and I’m sorry, but after 2016 I just don’t have faith in white women voters…particularly Republican white womensorry, not sorry
TenguPhule
@Baud: I believe they’re admitting that since they failed to hold Clinton to account by failing to get him to resign, they obviously can’t do anything about Trump.
Mnemosyne
@Suzanne:
INORITE???
I know they have to get the prospective Sexiest Man Alive to agree to it, but how far down their list did they have to go before they got to Shelton, FFS? I can think of at least a dozen white dudes who deserve it more, and that’s even before I get to the dudes of color.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
Meh.
jl
@Baud: ” I agree. It’s a real concern. ”
Which, I think, is why being over eager for mob justice in the court of public opinion, and using that eagerness as a test of moral worthiness is not the best way to make progress on problem of sexual harassment and assault.
zhena gogolia
@debbie:
I was pretty sure he was an a-hole before this, but I thought he was a hard-working, smart, Democratic a-hole who could do some good in the world.
Baud
@lamh36: Skepticism is warranted, but I’ll take good polls over bad.
mai naem mobile
@schrodingers_cat: one of he judges on American Idol
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne:
Oh God, they chose him?
Gin & Tonic
@Suzanne: I discussed that point with two women at work today, and showed them a picture that my daughter sent me of my grandson, all dressed up to go to a party two weeks ago. They both agreed that he was a far more serious contender for the title than Shelton.
Oh, he’s six months old.
And, no, I’m not going to post or link to or in any other way identify the picture. My daughter would kill me. With cause.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@debbie: Since we’re telling stories about inappropriate contact: I work at a banquet center and about 3 or 4 years ago when I was 18 or so I had a woman, who seemed to be in her thirties, give one of my butt cheeks a quick squeeze or two as she walked by behind me. I was shocked at first and didn’t know what to say or feel at the time. Being a man, I suppose I have the luxury to laugh those things off, and the woman was probably slightly intoxicated, but I’m sure she wouldn’t have liked being groped by a man.
Major Major Major Major
@Starfish: Well, who’s to say? The idea that gay male lecherous behavior is being “caused by” antigay stigma is a little patronizing, but moving beyond that, there are obviously plenty of straight men who are “out” and proud and are married and have children and are sexually assaulting women. To my mind they’re probably both reflections of the general cultural paradigm that men in general are/should be/get to be sexually dominant. As the victims in this case are also men, we have our own stew of internal conflict etc. to deal with.
zhena gogolia
@Mnemosyne:
Uhhh . . . Hamilmania may have faded but Daveed Diggs?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Suzanne:
Blake Shelton is a no-talent hick. Adam Levine is right.
Mnemosyne
@debbie:
Both parties seem to agree that there was a kiss during rehearsal because there was a kiss in the script. He wanted to rehearse the entire scene ahead of time — as professional actors are wont to do — and she didn’t want to. The dispute comes over the “forcible tongue kiss” part.
And the picture is gross and juvenile, but I wouldn’t say it’s a firing (resigning) offense. He’s not actually touching her and he’s mugging for the camera.
Mnemosyne
@zhena gogolia:
Well, duh! Or one of the guys from the thousands of Marvel universe movies that came out this summer. Or pretty much literally anyone else.
Suzanne
@schrodingers_cat:
Some country singer who is on The Voice and who is dating Gwen Stefani, and who was just inexplicably named Sexiest Man Alive by People Magazine. Andit looks like People was like, “Awww, SHIIIIIT, we missed the whole white working class angle with the election, so let’s name their boy DA SECKSIEST.” And he is so not even in the same zip code as hot. And there are so many other hot men.
Cacti
@ Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) :
Here’s mine:
When I was in 9th grade and walking with my tray to my usual lunchroom table, a girl I didn’t know reached out and pinched my ass. I didn’t want to cause a scene, so I didn’t say anything. I also didn’t figure any school administrators would care, because guy getting pinched by a girl, so I kept it to myself.
Mnemosyne
@Suzanne:
I’m pretty sure we could come up with a list of a half-dozen country singers who are hotter. And I hate country music.
Baud
I’m sexier than Blake Shelton.
Suzanne
@Mnemosyne: Fucking RAMSAY BOLTON is hotter.
I should note that I think the actor who played Ramsay Bolton is actually really hot. But in this case, I’m talking about the character—the dude who fed his mistress’s corpse to his hungry dogs is hotter than Blake Shelton.
Spoiler alert.
Major Major Major Major
If we’re doing the “men telling stories” thing I’ve been groped more times than I can count, kissed against my will several times, pressured into sex at least a couple, and harassed while doing things like volunteering or shopping, all by men. I don’t know, a woman might have done something inappropriate at some point, but I can’t recall any such incident.
mai naem mobile
The guy who really deserved Sexiest Man when they chose him was Mark Harmon. Pam Dawber was on some late night talk show and basically said he never has a bad hair day. Kinda like what Joanne Woodward said about Paul Newman.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: I’m sorry.
different-church-lady
Soooo… when I leave the cafe we’re talking about the gamut of creepers… and when I get home 20 minutes later I skip to the bottom of the thread and we’re talking about who’s sexier than who. [whiplash]
cokane
@Mnemosyne: well said, i think the photo looks bad because of the moment we’re in. but if he didn’t actually physically touch her, and given it was in 2006, the sensitivity of the issue wasn’t at quite the pitch it’s at now. I think it’s clearly a playing-the-villain attempt at comedy. whether you think it crosses a line is up to you, but i don’t think the intent of the photo is “how cool would it be to do this” but rather “this is something a creep would do”. Charlie Chaplin wasn’t praising Hitler either.
Admittedly I say this with a rose-tinted view of Franken. But, given his record until today, I think he deserves some benefit of the doubt.
Suzanne
@mai naem mobile: Mark Harmon is still hot. Paul Newman never won it but he should have, as he was unbelievably hot.
My vote is for Jason Momoa, or Mahershala Ali. Or Idris.
Pardon me for a few moments.
Felony Govt (formerly Old Broad in California)
I’m pleased that people are beginning to realize how common incidents of harassment and abuse have been in womens’ lives. I was first groped on the subway when I was 10 and have many other ugly similar stories.
And I agree- Blake Shelton? WTF?
different-church-lady
@Gin & Tonic: Ah, so we do support pedophilia.
KIDDING!!! I’M KIDDING!!!!!
Suzanne
@different-church-lady: Creeper talk is unrelentingly grim.
Plus, I think they chose Blake Shelton to culturally appeal to the deplorables.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: My immediate reaction to your comment was “eh, these things happen,” because of course it was.
different-church-lady
@cokane: It’s a given that Franken should resign because he didn’t realize Benny Hill went out of fashion ten years before that photo.
WaterGirl
@debbie: Can’t you know he did an asshole thing back then but is certainly more enlightened now?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Suzanne:
He has sung the opening song for every NASCAR race on TV for the last few years or so, called “Bringing Back the Sunshine.”
I’m surprised these scandals haven’t hit Nascar and other sports yet.
different-church-lady
Dammit, people, LG&M is on the edge of a double TBogg! Let’s step it up here!
No, don’t go over there, they’re hella more bleak about it than we are.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Cacti:
It’s funny how unfortunate double standards can affect situations. Besides a pinch sounds like it would hurt, not feel nice.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Honestly, IMO it’s a male supremacy/patriarchy thing than a strictly man/woman thing. And that’s even before we get to the power aspects — women who are abusers are almost always in a position of power over the person they abuse. A teacher, a babysitter, a parent, a client at an event, etc. It’s rare for women to wander around exposing themselves to or grabbing strangers because women don’t have the power to shame men by doing that. But in our society, men do have the power to shame other men by doing that.
Major Major Major Major
@different-church-lady:
shocking.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Well, it’s not exactly straight guys doing it to me.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@different-church-lady:
You mean a “Cole Unit”?
mike in dc
We’re going to need a cute animals and cake recipes thread run after this.
Roger Moore
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I would guess male-dominated sports haven’t had as much problem with this kind of thing simply because there aren’t a lot of women around to be harassed. And the male athletes’ behavior toward women outside the sports workplace has been so horrid that a spot of sexual harassment would get lost among all the rape and domestic violence.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
Only because he passed away.
different-church-lady
Meanwhile, Cole seems to have recovered enough to start watching House Hunters again.
lgerard
Very interesting long article if you have the stomach to read about Andrew Anglin’s antecedents
The Making of an American Nazi
TenguPhule
@mike in dc: Just one?
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@Suzanne: I agree with all of that. But I have to add LMM, Naveen Andrews, Daveed Diggs, and Lenny Kravitz to the list.
different-church-lady
@TenguPhule: Didn’t his tapes outlive him in syndication for quite a while? I’m not sure, because the early 90s were about the time I stopped playing much attention to television.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady: Yes, Comedy Central was still playing reruns well into the late 1990s. DVDs came out some time after 2000, IIRC.
WaterGirl
@Fair Economist: thank you!
debbie
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
She was wrong to do that.
debbie
@Mnemosyne:
She didn’t know about the picture till afterwards when she got a CD of photos from the trip. She says she felt embarrassed, ashamed, and humiliated. I think that’s something.
No Drought No More
I’m glad I’m not the fretting type.
debbie
@Suzanne:
I’d almost bet American Idol bought the cover to pimp their show.
debbie
@WaterGirl:
I still support him, but I now know he’s an asshole. It’s one thing to do that kind of shit in high school or college, but he was well beyond that stage at that time, or should have been.
WaterGirl
@debbie: I guess we see it differently.
Shana
@Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: And I know he’s older now, but Michael Stipe….
Doug R
@mike in dc: This not knowing appropriate behavior. For those of us on the Asperger spectrum, we need the “unwritten rules” spelled out. No more of this nod and wink stuff.
At least then we’ll all be on the same footing.
cokane
@lgerard: can 2nd, this article is well reported, well worth your time!
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@debbie:
She was. But at the same time I kinda liked it. Is that wrong?
chopper
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
no, 1000 is a “D-Bogg”. the “D” is for “ddouble”. the extra “d” is a typo.
debbie
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
No, not for you. You were 18.
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady:
YOU WIN EVERY DAMN THREAD
lgerard
@debbie:
people magazine is notorious for this
Mnemosyne
@debbie:
Well, sure, and that’s why he has now publicly apologized to her, and she has publicly accepted his apology. Should he resign over it, too, or can we accept her word that she accepts his apology for behaving so immaturely towards her in a photo?
ETA: Also, he was a comedian doing a comedy tour for the USO, not a US Senator. If we’re going to say that comedians must behave as mature adults at all times and never do a dumb photo, then we’re pretty much screwed.
schrodingers_cat
@Suzanne: I googled, not hot, IMHO.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: Okay, I googled just now. Not Hot. At All.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
In thinking about sexual harassment, power relationships make a difference to me. Did the harasser have power over the harassed, by position or age or something like that?
Waratah
@Baud: probably
JoJo
@mike in dc: I have a similar story, but in my case I was an outright sexist d-bag for almost all of my 20s. It took a few (figurative) slaps in the face to wake me up, but eventually I did wake up. What strikes me now, after all these years, is how much support I got for my behavior from other men. Anytime I got even slight pushback for my behavior, I could always count on a cadre of males to tell me that everything I said and did was just fine, the woman in question was being a “psycho,” etc. It was frighteningly easy to maintain the delusion that the problem was women, not me. I feel lucky that this was before I started using the internet, where I could have discovered MRA sites and the like-if I had, I don’t know if I ever would have crawled out that hole.
Mnemosyne
@mike in dc:
@JoJo:
It’s kind of interesting to me (as a woman) to hear you guys talk about it the same way I talk about my ongoing struggle with internalized racism. I did have to get some figurative slaps from people of color to wake up and realize I had just said or done something stupid, no matter how “enlightened” I liked to think I was. And it’s still something I actively struggle with, because as a white woman, I get a whole lot of societal feedback saying that I could dismiss the people who pointed out that I was full of shit as being “overly sensitive” or “playing the race card” and other white people would support me in that.
jl
@different-church-lady: Benny Hill must resign immediately!
debbie
@Mnemosyne:
I never said Franken should resign. But he was old enough that he should have given some thought to Leann’s feelings. At that age, he should have been beyond demeaning any woman.
KithKanan
@Mnemosyne: As a socially awkward male, it was easy to be a Nice Guy. I grew out of it with more experience and more empathy, but male socialization, particularly when you’re younger, can be deeply fucked up.
It’s not remotely an excuse, but see this twitter thread for some of the messages/shaming guys get from other guys when they don’t take advantage of women.
Lizzy L
Franken:
Can anyone imagine Donald Trump saying this? Roy Moore? Yeah, no. Talk is cheap, for sure, but Franken has made a public apology and a public promise, to which he can be held.
Mnemosyne
@debbie:
I don’t think anyone is saying you shouldn’t be disappointed in Franken for acting like an immature asshole when he was old enough to know better.
But people are pushing back on the MSM and Republican-fueled idea that this is somehow just as bad as what Roy Moore did. It is not, not by a hundred miles.
debbie
@Mnemosyne:
Agreed.
Gelfling 545
@different-church-lady: I’ve thought about this a bit today and am frankly sick of the whole bloomin’ mess. in my experience there’s quite a range from those who are socially inept to those who act like jerks occasionally through to guys who are outright creepy and on into the dangerous. In default of further evidence it seems at this point that Franken was being a jerk. To me this is distinct from the truly skeevy behavior of Moore ( calling a kid at school, seriously?) I do think we could be at the start of an upheaval in interpersonal communication that is long overdue but it’s going to be rocky for a bit. And strangely, I think we have Trump to thank for it.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: Hotness here.
::swoon::
mai naem mobile
@debbie: I think there’s more to this story than is being told. I am guessing they didn’t get along before the rehearsal. Maybe something happened during the flight or whatever. Maybe they discussed the politics of the war. It was 2006 after all. Maybe one of them was acting diva -ish.
I have a frind whose bf was serving a few years ago and had to help set up for Carlos Mencias USO show and he said Mencia was an asshole.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Rape? Jesus Christ on a slippery slope fallacy. So what skeletons does Scalzi have in his closet to move right to rape?
eemom
May have been noted already, but Kirstin fucking Gillibrand has added her mighty name to the “Clinton should have resigned” sheep bleat.
Good thing I already knew she’s a vacuous twat whose only principle is self advancement, or I might have thought she’s a vacuous twat whose only principle is self advancement.
Major Major Major Major
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: How is that a slippery slope fallacy…?
And he mentions rape because we’re talking about, among other things, rape.
Trentrunner
@eemom: [fingers-to-lips chef kisses] Perfect: “Twat” to describe a woman in a thread about assaulting and harassing women…
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: It’s worth noting that Scalzi has been involved in efforts to deal with the SFF community’s harassment problem over the past few years. He very likely had some specific people in mind while writing that.
Among other things, he was one of the authors advocating that Guests of Honor pull out of conventions with no harassment policy.
VincentN
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
The article Scalzi wrote was written before today in response to the Weinstein stuff so yeah of course rape is going to be mentioned.
J R in WV
@debbie:
You all are forgetting or ignoring that Al Franken was a professional CLOWN for his living back then. That’s why he was on a USO tour, to make guys laugh who were on the front lines. He did slapstick, he did verbal goofs, he did visual goofs.
The picture was Al Franken being a clown, not Al Franken being a rapist. Now he’s a Senator, then he was a clown.
Get over it.
mike in dc
Trump couldn’t resist douche-tweeting about this. I guess he needs Admiral Ackbar as his chief of staff.
Mnemosyne
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
It’s funny that all of the knitting conferences I’ve been to have had explicit no-harassment policies spelled out in big letters. And I think the Writer’s Digest conference I just went to had one as well.
Interesting that conferences where the audience is primarily women have those policies but conferences where the audience is (assumed to be) primarily men do not … ?
Matt McIrvin
@justawriter: Well, Hillary Clinton got successfully smeared with Bill’s record, so I’d expect them to look for dirt on spouses as a possible avenue of attack against female candidates.
debbie
@J R in WV:
It was Al Franken being an asshole. Get over that.
Omnes Omnibus
@J R in WV: @debbie: It is possible that you both are correct.
He apologized and asked for an ethics investigation. I say leave it there until the investigation is complete. If this is not part of a pattern of bad behavior, I think we should leave it here. If it is a part of a pattern, other steps may be warranted.
Matt McIrvin
@JoJo: I was trying not to be a sexist d-bag at that age but ended up with a textbook case of forlorn, passive-aggressive, self-friendzoning “Nice Guy” syndrome, which was undoubtedly irritating.
But I was just feminist enough not to blame the women of the planet for it, which is where particularly stupid young fellows of this sort go down the rabbit hole to MRA/Gamergater land.
debbie
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t think he needs to be prosecuted or persecuted or anything else. But this is now a part of his character, and looking the other way or ignoring a bad act because of a shared political agenda is bogus.
Omnes Omnibus
@debbie: Did i suggest looking the other way about anything?
debbie
@Omnes Omnibus:
No, you didn’t, and I didn’t mean to imply that you had. Others in this thread though have minimized it.
And now it’s Stallone’s turn…
Lyrebird
@debbie:
I am trying to find where I saw this – I thought she’d possessed the photo the whole time? Which suggests to me that he did a dipshit thing not an abuser thing. (Somewhere it said she had discussed the photo over the years with her husband.)
Omnes Omnibus
@debbie: Are you lumping Franken in with Moore, Weinstein, et al.? With what we know now, I would disagree with that. Let’s see what the investigation shows.
debbie
@Lyrebird:
I’ve read that they handed out CDs of photographs to everyone at the end of the tour. When she looked through the CD and found that photo, she said she felt humiliated. I don’t think this is abuse, but it’s a really shitty and juvenile thing to have done.
Lyrebird
@Lizzy L:
This, times 10.
debbie
@Omnes Omnibus:
No, Moore and Weinstein are in their own category. I would be very surprised if Franken’s done anything comparable to either of them.
Lyrebird
@debbie: Ok, thanks – I was at work & can’t retrace all of what I was reading.
I would have felt very angry and grossed out if I had been in her shoes.
I will also say, and I totally respect your right to 100% disagree, that based on my limited personal experience of performing arts tours and of humiliation, that the way they shared that photo suggests they considered her an equal and (stupidly) thought she’d think it was funny. If they’d intended to humiliate her with it, I bet it would have been handled in an even worse way.
I have known some good and honorable men (and women maybe?) who would not have guessed how not just gross but terrifying that photo might be to someone who’s been abused in some fashion before.
I find the timing of this complaint odd, but I agree with the Dem brass that a serious investigation is the best response.
debbie
@Lyrebird:
I agree, but I will say that her perception is no less relevant than his intentions. It doesn’t matter how he meant it as much as it matters how she took it.
Aleta
@Major Major Major Major: —it’s my impression that the conversation is supposed to be focused on women and women’s stories right now.–
My impression is that the focus is sexual harassment, and how it affects people regardless of sex, orientation, fame, status. It’s been a major advance that men abused by Kevin Spacey felt able to speak and were given space in the reporting. His fame made that happen I guess.
The experts have been telling us for years that sexual abuse doesn’t happen to only one type of person (weak females) and that perpetrators aren’t one type (lower class, obvious scumbags). Activists have worked against the system to publicize that perpetrators can be policemen, judges, relatives, a coach, teacher everyone looks up to. We learn it can even be directors and comedians we like, and that even talented, smart people can be shattered by abusers. Knowing this helps change the environment that lets abusers conceal.
I think everyone who feels like talking is incredibly important. Maybe tomorrow someone will be more prepared to escape or report, after hearing a story that’s familiar. Weinstein won’t hurt as many people now that his name is out.
I think more writing on harassment in the gay community is coming soon. I remember in the 80’s when a few lesbians published stories of domestic abuse from their partners. It was hard at the time to accept and to reveal. But the knowledge meant that help became available to more victims, and programs to work with abusers in the lesbian community were also started in some places.
Sister Golden Bear
@Major Major Major Major: Oh Maude yes! I’m a performer (drag and now burlesque) and I cannot tell you how many, many times I’ve gotten groped in gay bars. It’s also a huge issue for my cisgender performer sisters as well. And whenever we called them on it, the response was invariably: what’s the big deal, it’s not sexual because I’m not attracted to women.
FWIW, I’ve also heard from a number of gay men who are uncomfortable with how handsy some gay men can be in gay bars. There’s a definite lag in the concept of consent culture from what I can tell.
One reason I don’t really perform much in gay men’s spaces anymore. Burlesque spaces don’t tolerate that shit from audience members at all. Albeit there’s definitely unresolved issues of “missing stair” sexual predators, almost always men, within our own ranks of performers, MCs, producers and photographers.
That said, women aren’t saint either. I remember reading an essay earlier this year by a woman who attended “lesbian spring break” in Palm Springs for the first time and was repeatedly groped while there. And got an equivalent kind of dismissal from the women she told to stop.
From my own experience, while getting groped by men was far more prevalent, when women did it, they were were far more invasive and far less likely to get that they were doing something wrong. I’ve had to (discretely) physically smack hands mid-performance. Probably the worst experience was the woman who first grabbed my breasts and then stuck her hand up my crotch because she “wanted to see what I had up there.” I’m not proud to say it, but I froze, and she’s damn lucky her friends hustled her out of there before 1) I decked her, and 2) pressed charges for sexual assault.
There’s just something that seems to make people think we’re the entertainment, not the entertainers.
Raven Onthill
Me, I fear a return to Victorian-style prudery and hypocrisy.
@Sister Golden Bear: That tallies with my experience. Women are much less likely than men to be harassers, but the ones who are are really awful.
I think also that most men have at least a few instances of sexual harassment in their lives, the difference is – the privilege is – that harassment of men is not routine.
I support a Senate ethics investigation of Al Franken. I also support a House investigation of Donald Trump. What I fear we will get is another Ken Starr style circus, in which the offenses of Franken and his like are treated as worse than the child rape by the likes of Moore and in which consensual sexual intercourse is treated as as reprehensible as rape.