Given his coke fueled years at SNL, I doubt this will be the last person to come forward:
As a TV host and sports broadcaster, as well as a model familiar to the audience from the covers of FHM, Maxim and Playboy, I was only expecting to emcee and introduce the acts, but Franken said he had written a part for me that he thought would be funny, and I agreed to play along.
When I saw the script, Franken had written a moment when his character comes at me for a ‘kiss’. I suspected what he was after, but I figured I could turn my head at the last minute, or put my hand over his mouth, to get more laughs from the crowd.
On the day of the show Franken and I were alone backstage going over our lines one last time. He said to me, “We need to rehearse the kiss.” I laughed and ignored him. Then he said it again. I said something like, ‘Relax Al, this isn’t SNL…we don’t need to rehearse the kiss.’
He continued to insist, and I was beginning to get uncomfortable.
He repeated that actors really need to rehearse everything and that we must practice the kiss. I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me. We did the line leading up to the kiss and then he came at me, put his hand on the back of my head, mashed his lips against mine and aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth.
I immediately pushed him away with both of my hands against his chest and told him if he ever did that to me again I wouldn’t be so nice about it the next time.
I walked away. All I could think about was getting to a bathroom as fast as possible to rinse the taste of him out of my mouth.
I felt disgusted and violated.
Franken’s response is weak tea:
Sen. Franken provided the following statement to Fox 9 on Thursday: “I certainly don’t remember the rehearsal for the skit in the same way, but I send my sincerest apologies to Leeann. As to the photo, it was clearly intended to be funny but wasn’t. I shouldn’t have done it.”
I’m not sure how there is an innocent explanation for this, and unless and until I see one with some corroborating statements from the photographer or others, in my opinion, Franken should probably resign.
*** Update ***
Apparently it is of major importance that I note that I no longer think Franken should resign given the events of the day. My opinion was based on his bullshit first response. Things changed.
Laertes
Fuck.
Bailey
Seriously. What the fuck?
An enlightened society would take this as an opportunity to elect smart, reasonable women as their leaders.
I fear we’re just going to keep chasing abusers of all types down into the gutter.
PhoenixRising
Yates/Harris 20/20
As You Can Clearly See, 2 Women Is Our Best Bet
Sorry, Baud!
James E. Powell
@PhoenixRising:
Totally down for that. For like the next 40 years or so.
JR
Franken needs to make it right. That’s all I can say.
SatanicPanic
Oh god damn it
ETA- then again I’m not that surprised
SatanicPanic
@PhoenixRising: Sally Yates?
Betty Cracker
No probably about it, IMO. He should resign.
Rex
It’s a little odd in her article that she says she told her husband and showed him the picture even though this allegedly happened in 2006 but she didn’t meet her husband until 2008 and he didn’t become her husband until 2010.
lamh36
Predictions:
1) Al Frankenstein may well step down
2)more GOP will call for his resignation ON THE RECORD w/o the “if/then” construct they are using for Moore
3)More Dems will quickly say Franken has to step down than GOP did
4)There is still a chance Roy Moore gets elected.
Timurid
The Roy Moore News Cycle
2017 – 2017
RIP
Peter
He almost certainly won’t be the last one on our side to be accused. Sexual harassment is everywhere. Resist the urge to downplay, rationalize, or explain away.
schrodingers_cat
I am not willing to throw him under the bus, yet. Not while the p-grabbing person sits in the WH.
rikyrah
Let’s see the long line of Franken women come out.
Lips pursed
MarkK
Knee jerk reactions
Dammit, give the best Senator the benefit of the doubt until we hear more. Damn people!
“Coke fueled years”? What horseshit! That was mainly his writing partner Tom Davis. Franken cowrote “When A Man Loves A Woman” screen play about him and his wife. He is a good man!!
Ian G.
There’s gonna be a lot more of this coming down the pike. Some of the guilty parties are going to be our political heroes. No excuse, they need to go. We are better than the GOP and don’t excuse this because our tribe right or wrong, Jesus forgives, or other assorted horseshit excuses.
The Moar You Know
@Betty Cracker: I’ll urge throwing Franken out of office when the Republicans toss one of theirs, which will be never.
lamh36
Prediction: Donald Trump will make a statement about Al Franken but won’t directly make one about Roy Moore
eemom
What the fuck is WRONG with you penised people??
zhena gogolia
WHAT IS WITH THESE MEN?
Betty Cracker
@The Moar You Know: We’re supposed to be better than them, remember?
satby
Drunk, drug-addled guys have done stupid shit forever (same for drunk, drug-addled women). Not excusing it, but when a witch hunt starts, pretty soon more than just witches get burned. Now everyone is talking about Franken and an adult, whom he undoubtedly wronged, and not focused on Moore the perv. As planned.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@SatanicPanic: I’m not that surprised, either. He has repeatedly said that he has skeletons that keep him from running for President.
I just have to confess that I resent the hell out of the R side getting to repeatedly use the “That was in my bad old days, I’ve cleaned up since then” narrative even when it’s clearly a lie, but we don’t.
Crashman
@The Moar You Know: This is literally their excuse for Moore.
Betty Cracker
@lamh36: Maybe, but if he’s smart (which he’s not), he’ll keep his big fat trap shut. There’s about a dozen women with credible allegations against Trump. He’s been lucky the media hasn’t been beating down their doors. If he weighs in, that could change.
Hildebrand
If we want there to be a standard, we have to enforce the standard.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Betty Cracker: There’s a difference between “better than them” and expecting perfection.
HAL
Cam we just replace all the men in Congress with women? Or at least all the dudes engaging or who have engaged in this behavior.
cervantes
Sure, it seems wrong that the right wing Bible thumpers get away with abusing women and liberal, secular politicians don’t. But that’s because we’re better than them. We should stay that way. On the other hand, it’s okay for our politicians to be gay, so there’s some compensation!
It saddens me but yes, I think Franken should resign. We need to keep standards clear about this. Although I’m sure there will be cases that are more ambiguous and there can never be a precise bright line.
schrodingers_cat
@lamh36: But BJ commenters and FPers want to throw Franken under the bus because we have to be pure. I am beginning many people in this country lack the instinct of self preservation and survival instinct. What else explains the T voters or the penchant for purity and self-martyrdom displayed by our side too.
The Rs are trying to literally kill us but let’s purge Bill Clinton from the history books and also Franken.
Why stop there, disown FDR and JFK too.
Neldob
Republicans elect a serial predator president and Franken steps down… I hope Franken can make it better.
Jack the Second
Governor of MN is a Democrat, so there’s that.
I kind of liked Franken, so I’m going to quietly hope this isn’t as bad as it sounds, but I’ve no personal knowledge of his character and no reason to disbelieve the accuser so I’m provisionally sad to learn of this. :-/
Llelldorin
No, he should clearly resign, and make a statement throwing a sharp focus on Moore: That we don’t tolerate harassment while the Republicans are willing to tolerate pedophilia.
Gator90
Franken will resign. As he should. Moore will get elected. Just like Trump. Sigh.
magurakurin
@PhoenixRising: yep, all female ticket. I’m in.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@cervantes: So we can never, ever, ever have a D politician who is a former drug user.
Got it.
Laura B.
Good grief Franken, wtf.
I do wonder how Roger Stone knew about this last night. Franken stinks for having any part in this (and his never ending smarmy-ness has always rubbed the wrong way) but something else smells funny too.
From last night….
https://twitter.com/StoneColdTruth/status/931042351459504128
lamh36
@satby: right…i’m sure it’ll be the #1 story on Fox News
The CyrptKeeper…I mean KellyAnne Conway has already tweeted bout it
and you can already see KKKlanity gleefully preparing his show
guachi
I’ve been groped multiple times by women.
WHAT’S WRONG WITH THESE VAGINA PEOPLE!!!!
is that how it’s done?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
The contours of the system of oppression called white/male supremacy has certainly become clearer. The ground is shifting under their feet, and I AM HERE FOR IT. Too bad the GOPers are busy working overtime to stack the court with lifetime appointments to codify it and enforce it further, thanks to the purity progressives who helped hand the country over to the GOP, just when light is dawning over Marblehead. Good thing we didn’t nominate Franken – something I would have supported. Would the one Democratic man who hasn’t groped or harrassed a woman, please step up? Not looking at you Joe Biden.
PJ
Franken’s behavior was asinine and abusive, and his apology is weak, but if (and that may be a big “if”) this is the extent of his malfeasance, calling for his resignation is just torpedoing an effective senator when no Republican would ever be asked to step down for similar actions.
rikyrah
Was this during his coked out days?
Gimme 6 accusers for Franken, and I’ll be right there, calling for him to resign.
We have Dolt45 as President, and FRANKEN should resign?
GTFOH
mike in dc
uh…how many years removed are we from Ted Kennedy getting a hero’s funeral?
satby
@rikyrah: yeah, this. Show me patterns of behavior.
And while we’re at it, who had this picture to release? It just surfaced now, not during his Senate run?
Again, not excusing it, but crazy shit like that every female over a certain age dealt with, sometimes daily. We’ve evolved past that, but not far enough to elect a woman president yet. We’re getting there, but it’s going to be slower going if we keep shooting our own people over every single lapse in judgment.
No Drought No More
Picture every man in the world collected together in one place, all of them having just been told that his life would be spared if one villain among them was revealed to the executioner. Then picture every man in the world standing, one after the other, to boldly claim: “I am Donald Trump”.
Doug!
Politicians are enormous pervs. There will be lots of stories like this one, and I expect the break-down to be 50/50 by party.
geg6
I’m troubled a bit by this and his not very good statement. Not sure he should resign, but he should certainly do better than he has.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: Word.
Doug!
@rikyrah:
I’d say 3 is enough for me.
cokane
@satby: what was “planned”? it’s not like the GOP is in cahoots with Franken’s accuser
Fleeting Expletive
Just saw this. FUCK. I sent Al money from way down here in RedState because I know he has acted intelligently as a Senator and is as eloquent as anyone. Dammit.
What’s that movie where somebody yells “You owe me money!” in high dudgeon? I can’t remember who it was or what movie. I’d like my $35 back, Al. Dammit.
mike in dc
@Doug!: Is it then realistic to expect and demand mass resignations? We might need to take a Truth and Reconciliation approach here.
Bailey
I finished reading his “Giant of the Senate” a few weeks ago. I thought it was great. I suspected he the timing of the book indicated an interest in running for president.
This is obviously a terrible development. He’s been a great Senator and valuable member of his various committees.
Ugh.
I don’t think there’s a great way to make this right. If it were a one-time thing, I’d recommend that he make contact with the woman and personally apologize, and try to change the conversation we’re having in this country about how to rectify past errors. But I suspect many more women would come forward with some similar story.
Chip Daniels
Witchhunts are not the false accusation of innocent people.
They are the blind conflating of ordinary human frailty with monstrous evil.
Was this a one time weak moment? Or a pattern?
Thoroughly Pizzled
Franken should resign, and it kills me to say it. None of the revelations have been as disappointing as this one. They’ll appoint a Democrat in his place and we will move forward.
Repatriated
@cokane: Sure about that?
ETA: Not WRT the offense of course, but with soliciting the reveal at this particular time
aimai
@Betty Cracker: Resign, really? We can’t afford to shoot ourselves in the foot here like we did when Spitzer resigned and the guy with the diaper fetish and mr wide stance didn’t.
satby
@cokane: throwing chum into the waters so everyone can discuss Franken instead of Moore planned. Didn’t have to be coordinated, though given what we now know about social media, who knows?
Miss Bianca
Resign?? WTF is wrong with all y’all? If true, is it slimy behavior? Sure. But name me ONE GODDAMNED GUY in entertainment who *hasn’t* done something like this, and I’ll call you a liar. And I should know, because I’ve worked in those fields and I know a lot of lefty guys who did shit like this, to me and others. Does the ingrained sexism that allows this type of behavior enrage me? Sure. Do I think that I and the country can afford to say “throw the bum out”? No, I do not, and if y’all do, I’d say you had rocks in your head. For fuck’s sake, work to elect someone else in his place – preferably a woman. But cut it out with this “oh, he should immediately resign” bullshit. Immediately resign and be replaced by a Republican? Right *now*? Forest, trees. People, please.
The Moar You Know
@Betty Cracker: Read every posting I’ve ever made here. I constantly urge that we stop playing by rules that tie both hands behind our back and start using their rules and methods so the playing field is level. We are not supposed to be “better” than them. We’re supposed to fucking win.
aimai
@rikyrah: This.
Miss Bianca
Resign?? WTF is wrong with all y’all? If true, is it slimy behavior? Sure. But name me ONE GODDAMNED GUY in entertainment who *hasn’t* done something like this, and I’ll call you a liar. And I should know, because I’ve worked in those fields and I know a lot of lefty guys who did shit like this, to me and others. Does the ingrained sexism that allows this type of behavior enrage me? Sure. Do I think that I and the country can afford to say “throw the bum out”? No, I do not, and if y’all do, I’d say you had rocks in your head. For fuck’s sake, work to elect someone else in his place, if you feel that strongly about it – preferably a woman. But cut it out with this “oh, he should immediately resign” bullshit. Immediately resign and be replaced by whom? What? A Republican? Right *now*? Forest, trees. People, please. We’ve got tax fights, ACA fights, and creeping fascism fights, and a shit-ton of other stuff to deal with *in addition* to outrage against powerful men acting the way powerful men have acted for millenia.
ETA: wrong email, thrown into moderation. Le sigh. It’s been that kind of week.
El Caganer
NO GROPER! NO GROPER! YOU’RE THE GROPER! FAKE NEWS!
schrodingers_cat
@aimai: @The Moar You Know: We fight to win. Fuck this nobility, shit.
Franken will resign when Trump does, is what every D on TV should say.
Patricia Kayden
@eemom: Not all “penised” persons though. Just too many. I genuinely admire Franken for his political astuteness (and his hard fought Senatorial victory) so I’m sorry that he engaged in such inappropriate conduct that he may lose his seat over it. Shame on him for not behaving better when he certainly knows better.
satby
@Chip Daniels: several dead women in Salem would disagree with that, but that wasn’t really my point anyway.
This was, you said it better.
guachi
The people calling upon Franken to resign are over reacting.
Expecting perfection from people is ludicrous.
mb
Franken should resign right after Trump does and not a moment sooner. Would that there was some force in the universe that could preserve us from the self-destructive righteousness of the progressive/liberal hive-mind. How about some more self-flagellation over the very timely subject of Bill Clinton?
I wish I could wake up tomorrow in a different time and place — way far away from all you mother fuckers.
PhoenixRising
@satby:
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
@schrodingers_cat:
Not to start an argument with you jackals, but genuinely curious. Quick survey for those who are justifying Franken’s behavior (even if all he did was pose for a crude photo that he knew would haunt the woman being harassed, not him, back when he was a 55yo juvenile delinquent):
How old are you?
I think it might be interesting to see whether there is a generation gap on this. I’m 46, and I’m not excusing any more men older than I am behaving in ways that boys at my high school were disciplined for. Mrs Phoenix is in her mid-50s and boys at her high school weren’t disciplined for this kind of thing. Also when she started school girls were required to wear skirts.
So…do we have a Title IX effect in how we react to grown men acting like 12yo boys? Curious.
Repatriated
@schrodingers_cat: this.
Lizzy L
If Franken resigns, the Democratic Governor of Minnesota will appoint a Democrat. Given the Senate numbers, it’s no small thing.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@rikyrah:
I’m in the “he should promise to serve out his term and not run for re-election” camp.
rikyrah
@satby:
Uh huh
Uh huh
aimai
@Hildebrand: what is the standard? This is such a confused statement. My standard is I won’t vote for a pedophhile, not that I won’t vote for a guy who got drunk/hi and forced a kiss on a woman. No one is asking Moore to resign from a job–we are making fun of his voters for being willing to excuse actual crimes in order to get them elected. The proof in a senator is in the work he/she has done in the senate–just as the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If Franken has a pattern of harassing women right now, from his senate seat, then he should lose his next election. But if he committed some sins while a fucking comic doing stand up? Hell no, that’s not relevant.
Peter
@The Moar You Know: Fuck that. America cannot survive both of its major political parties sliding into childish nihilism.
cokane
@Repatriated: the tendency of some juicers to go full Seth Rich on any bad news is telling
Thoroughly Pizzled
Even if we ignore the moral cost of leaving a sexual harasser in the Senate, how can we ask women to come out and vote for the party that will protect an abuser? We’re trying to build a winning coalition. Franken is good, but he is not irreplaceable.
Tata
@aimai: Agreed.
WaterGirl
You guys are nuts if you think Al Franken should step down for this. That looks like a posed “pretending to touch her” and there was absolutely nothing sexual about it. A tasteless joke. Has everybody lost their mind?
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Chip Daniels:
This.
Really, folks. My reaction to this is the same as to the George Takei story.
The timing is mighty convenient for certain parties.
We’re all over this and ignoring that TWO MORE women have come forward in Alabama.
satby
@Miss Bianca: and this! Jeezus, where’s you all grow up anyway, Brigadoon?
Yeah, we don’t want people grabbing each other’s any body parts. But if everyone who did something similar was removed from public life, the streets, halls of Congress, and most corporations would be empty.
aimai
@PhoenixRising: I’m 57. I wouldn’t tolerate it now, or then, but I wouldn’t clutch my god damned pearls over it either. Is the difference title 9 or is the difference that we’ve found out that a large number of men are much, much, much, more serious, vicious, rapists and serial abusers of women than this incident?
SatanicPanic
We wouldn’t accept these excuses from Donald Trump and Roy Moore so I’m not accepting them from a goddamn Democrat. Thank you for your service Mr. Franken, please don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
sharl
Comedy intermission!
The hat in the photo attached to the second tweet – it’s not a good quality photo (shot taken through a “clear” door or window of some sort – just screams GIMME ATTENTION PRESS SCRUM!
~
OK, we now return you to the latest awfulness…
mike in dc
I think the threshold for resignation should be a very serious single incident(if highly credible) or a pattern of misconduct. I don’t think it should be a single incident of alleged misconduct. Is this unfair? An elected official was put there by thousands or millions of voters.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@guachi: This ain’t perfection, this is basic decency. We can’t excuse it just because show business is like that. I loved Al Franken, but he should go.
aimai
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Christ, I’m a woman, ask me! Just fucking AS ME if I want an effective, smart, aggressively liberal senator who pursues policies that benefit women publicly and consistently?
schrodingers_cat
@PhoenixRising: I don’t care about Franken. I am not invested in him. He is a D and that’s all that matters to me. Short of a criminal offense I will support any D against Rs.
bupalos
It’s actually a chance to walk the walk and move the ball forward that is, on balance, more important than retaining Franken. This stuff is either unacceptable or it’s not, it’s an absolute, and I don’t care how crappy the R’s are on this, this is as bedrock a principle as we have.
It’s too bad, on policy Franken is great and I have a feeling he’s much matured now. But there’s no reason why policy has to be hostage to this kind of stuff. Frankly, not a bad time to get him out and a new D in.
SenyorDave
I think he’s toast, the story is on Yahoo news. I could imagine qa skit gone wrong making a comedian seem worse than he really was. But this is just someone molesting a woman.
narya
My $0.02: what I don’t excuse are (a) patterns of behavior and/or (b) no attempt at or interest in changing shitty behavior. If, for example, there were a number of people who said Soandso did this to me, AND Soandso deflected, denied, etc, then GTFOH. If there is an isolated incident, maaaayyybeee two, or if Soandso said yeah, I was an asshole. I figured out that I was being an asshole, and I changed my behavior, and tried to make amends, I’m more willing to listen. There are all kinds of exceptions and such to the above (the person/people are underage; forcible rape occurred); it’s just my shorthand for how I’m reading the news.
schrodingers_cat
@aimai: I think there is a strong correlation between BS curious and BS supporters and those who want throw Franken under the bus.
ETA: Their purity is more important to them than winning.
Gin & Tonic
@aimai: Co-sign.
PJ
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Nobody’s talking about protecting him. He should have to answer for this and anything else he’s done. But calling for his resignation just based on the current allegations does nothing to prevent abuse and will just damage the Democrats. The voters of Minnesota can decide whether they want him to continue representing them.
Aleta
He could use the opportunity for public service; explain what he’s learned about sexual harassment –
For example, “Some people think it doesn’t count if the woman is a model, or a sex worker or a sex entertainer, or an athlete or performer. No woman is fair game, no matter what her work, how she dressed or modeled for a photo, no matter how funny the joke seems, or how much you disagree politically. Rehearsing or acting is not an excuse; misunderstanding is not an excuse. Consent is always required, and pressure and insults after she refuses are also harassment.”
Amaranthine RBG
Any democrat calling for Frankenstein to resign should stop ducking their purity pony.
SatanicPanic
@schrodingers_cat: He’d be replaced by a Democrat, so if that’s what people are worried about it’s no loss.
Llelldorin
@PhoenixRising:
That’s a really interesting question! 43 here, and called for resignation immediately.
The incident in question happened in 2006, only 2 years before he ran for the Senate—this was’t some youthful indiscretion except in the sense of Hyde.
aimai
@bupalos: Ha ha, no. This is not a chance to “move the ball forward.” Moving the ball forward for women would be passing better laws through the senate and the house to protect all women from harassment at work everywhere. We need effective legislators to do that. Its not just “any D in a storm.”
marv
Let’s face it: men as a group (the one I happen to belong to) need a time-out in terms of holding power – for about a thousand years or so. Al has to go, in my humble opinion, unless something exonerating comes out by, like, this afternoon, and I am surprised that some here seem to hate Republicans more than abuse of women.
Stacy
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Yup. It’s just not going to fly.
Repatriated
@Thoroughly Pizzled: But he was voted in by people who knew show business is like that, and wasn’t actively pretending it wasn’t like that. Notably, he’s said he knows that he couldn’t run for President with his history.
satby
@PhoenixRising: 62, and there’s definitely an age relationship to my stance. BTW, I clearly stated I wasn’t justifying this kind of behavior; but it could easily have been shrugged off as normal gross hijinx when I was younger.
I’m not a fan of judging people’s actions of years or decades ago by today’s standards.
Moore still fails that, because he was chasing and assaulting young girls who expressed their dislike of his attention, and abusing the power of his office to do so.
The Moar You Know
@mb: Amen. I am sick to death of this bunch of dumb motherfuckers on the Titanic who would insist that we all tie ourselves to the railings out of fairness while their enemies all climb into the lifeboats and sail away.
schrodingers_cat
@SatanicPanic: Doesn’t matter. We should not throw him under the bus for this, while p grabber sits in the WH.
aimai
@Llelldorin: and what happened to hyde? Nothing. Why would we preemptively get rid of good legislators because of a minor incident that happened while they were in private life. There is an enormous difference between being a boor, an asshole, or a jerk and doing being a criminal or a porto-criminal. Its like demanding that he resign because you think you get to hand out points for the style of his apology–this is an incident that AT BEST requires a personal apology, not self immolation.
bemused
@schrodingers_cat:
My thoughts too but will also wait to see how this shakes out. Franken isn’t a monster like Moore. I’ve followed Franken for years and seen/heard him in tears many times telling stories about his numerous trips to entertain troops, Paul Wellstone and other topics.
What I do know is that Franken has been doing a good job and we need him in MN. Gov Dayton’s seat will be up too. MN may be a blue state but the loony Republican jackels, legislators and voters, here want MN to become Kansas.
Bailey
@Aleta:
I agree with this because there has to be some other way to move this dialogue off of “let’s burn everything they ever did and not speak of them again.” However, I think this approach would only work of this were a one-off thing for Al or, like it appears, a comedy skit gone way wrong.
If there are more instances like this, I’m not sure it’s possible.
justawriter
@The Moar You Know: It does remind me a bit of the meme with the women from The Handmaid’s Tale saying “But her emails…”.
MisterForkbeard
Here’s where I’m at with this: I’m disappointed in Franken.
Considering this is (so far) a single, stupidly immature incident and Franken’s history of advocacy for and on behalf of women (and his otherwise impeccable politics and vital place in the Senate at this point in time), there’s no need for a resignation. A sincere apology and finding a way to make it right will suffice if there isn’t a pattern of this behavior.
But seriously, let’s not pretend this is anywhere *near* as bad as any of the things Trump, Moore, or numerous other republicans have done. The accusation amounts to a bad photograph (which I’ve seen worse of publicly on facebook) and a forceful kiss during a comedy skit. It’s not raping women, it’s not stalking teenage girls, and it’s not threatening or assaulting women for sexual gain. Maybe I’m out of line here, but this does not seem like an offense worthy of resignation. Unless, of course, more surfaces.
@Bailey: I agree with this 100%. If it’s a one-off thing then it’s forgivable and he can do something to make it mean something. He’s already doing better than his republican counterparts – he apologized for the photo and said he shouldn’t have done it, and says he doesn’t remember the skit that way but was sorry anyway. That holds up so long as it’s not a repeated problem.
But he has an opportunity to use this as a moment to demonstrate how we as a nation (and as men) should handle this kind of event. Both the event itself, and the public response.
MomSense
@PhoenixRising:
Ive been saying for some time that Yates is on my short list. Same with Harris.
I listen to the Brobamas’ podcasts and recently Yares was a guest at one of their recorded before an audience podcasts. No one they’ve interviewed in front of an audience has received applause like she did. This was a largely millennial audience and they love her.
PhoenixRising
@satby:
I am sincerely not here to criticize when I say, that right there is the problem. Not that it’s true–I don’t think so–but that you know it is, no debate.
Maybe I’m suffering from the GenX/millenial idealism and entitlement disorders that we all like to mock, but: No.
Humor that punches down, where the joke is assaulting an unconscious woman, resulted in actual consequences for actual high school boys when I was a kid 30 years ago. Why should we hold a United States Senator to a lower standard for something that happened 12 years ago?
It’s not clear to me that resigning is how he can best shift the conversation where it ought to be, which is on how to change culture so that men don’t think this is funny.
MarkK
The accuser is a tea party member. I believe Al Franken. We are up against Nazis people!!
If this is all she had against Franken and the forced kiss is not corroborated and he is forced out by a lynchmob, I will resign from the Democratic Party too.
Right now , my Rep. Matt “Traitor” Gaetz who had 7 DUIs, is trying to get Mueller fired. This is the threat to America and I’m donating to his opponent from my small Social Security but if Franken goes, I’m gone too.
I’m a father, veteran, and a good guy who partied his ass off in my younger days, especially in the Army, but have never been arrested like Gaetz. Never forced myself on a woman who said “No” either.
Like the doctor who groped my sister, I demanded an apology ( I was told to shut up, so I left and got a job at another hospital ) because my she was so shaken. However, if he had apologized, that would have been ok and life could’ve gone on.
I smell a hit job on, imo, the best man in the Senate.
Forget Net Neutrality if he is forced out
zzyzx
@SatanicPanic: Yeah I don’t see the reason why to fight this. This is like a lot of the complaints about Obama; if your goal is to try to support the system as a whole, you can’t do end arounds in that cause. If you’re trying to make a statement about the boundaries of acceptable male behavior, this seems like a perfect chance to show that it’s not a partisan issue, especially when it wouldn’t even have a practical downside.
feebog
This is disgusting behavior for sure. But let’s put some perspective on it before we all go over the cliff like lemmings. Only Franken knows if this was a pattern of behavior or this was just an isolated incident. Given that he thought groping this woman was funny, at least at the time, there may well be other women who will come forward. Al Franken is a smart politician. I’m willing to let him make the call based on what he knows.about his past. I would remind everyone that an accusation against George Takai came out last week, followed by nothing. In my mind there is a difference between someone who does something stupid and apologizes, and someone who displays a pattern of abusive behavior. Only Franken knows which is which at this point.
Thoroughly Pizzled
I do admit, it’s a lot easier for me to call for Franken to resign, knowing that his replacement would be a Democrat. But when the world makes our choices easier, we take the opportunity.
SatanicPanic
@schrodingers_cat: Because we want to be on the level of that guy?
Man I’m disappointed with people here. Every excuse here is something that could be coming straight from the Moore camp:
Why are these allegations coming out now?
We need to keep power, so sorry lady.
The other side does it.
It’s not that bad
Everyone does it.
Our opponents in our party squabble must be behind this.
At this point I’m surprised that someone hasn’t thrown out that she’s a paid liar or that it’s all FAKE NEWS.
mike in dc
@SatanicPanic: I’m worried about the permanent demolition of a dedicated public servant’s reputation, based upon a single allegation of intermediate seriousness. For which the public servant promptly apologized. Can we knock off any sitting politician based upon a single allegation of intermediate seriousness? Not just related to sexual misconduct, but any misconduct of intermediate seriousness?
Patricia Kayden
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Great point.
@Amaranthine RBG: ?? What does “ducking their purity pony” mean? I think those calling for Franken to resign are doing so because our party shouldn’t support anyone who engages in sexual harassment (or any kind of harassment for that matter). We can’t call out Republicans for the misconduct while holding on to our harassers.
It appears that Franken’s apology is sincere, however, as he takes the full blame for his behavior and doesn’t try to shift the blame to the accuser.
jk
Cole,
I agree that Franken should resign.
As a diehard Bill Clinton apologist, you need to read this Vox post by Matthew Yglesias
“Bill Clinton should have resigned: What he did to Monica Lewinsky was wrong, and he should have paid the price”:
h/t https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/15/16634776/clinton-lewinsky-resigned
Where’s your post denouncing that scumbag pervert Louis CK?
SatanicPanic
@zzyzx: This is a no-brainer. An EASY WIN. Take the win people.
bemused
@Laura B.:
Oh jesus, pervy creep Roger Stone! Of course, he doesn’t care who knows he is. He’s proud of being a pervert.
It is weird that he knew something. My guess, there is ton of research on Dems the rightwing will use any way they can to obscure their own creeps.
Fair Economist
@mike in dc:
I’m with this. If he *actually* groped her, that’s resignation material. Made a crude photo – not resignation material. Got drunk and forced a kiss – not resignation material. Regularly “rehearsed” kisses on unwilling co-stars? Resignation material.
schrodingers_cat
@SatanicPanic: Which guy? I am more concerned about Central Americans and Haitians who are probably next in line to lose their TPS. I don’t have the luxury of being pure.
bupalos
@aimai: I really don’t understand the false choice the “we have to fight like Trump does” people are seeing here. Gender equality is as important a policy goal as we have IMO. This is a much more direct way to help effect that (establishing that it’s not a relative but absolute position for us) than trading a supposedly effective D-legislator for a replacement D-legislator.
This is a no-brainer to me. We really don’t need Franken, on balance, he isn’t or won’t be an asset going forward, he’ll be an unneeded risk factor. There is simply zero practical OR idealistic reason to spend capital defending him.
Nicole
Ugh. Here, Senator- here’s what you should have said:
“I did a terrible thing. Like the vast majority of American men, I grew up in a culture that taught us that boys are better than girls; that men are better than women. It’s not true, but when society, your education, your friends, the media, and even family, keep presenting the same wrong idea as truth, you start to believe it. And you do dumb, terrible, hurtful things to women, because society has told you it’s acceptable. I’m glad to be living in a moment of history when the truth is coming out, and I deserve as much as anyone else to be called out for bad behavior I’ve done before. I deserve every criticism, every humiliation. What I did was wrong.
But I can’t resign, because men, many of whom look just like me, saw fit to put into the White House a man who has admitted to assaulting women, and this man sees nothing wrong with making sure our society continues to devalue, dehumanize girls and women- and the party he leads is eagerly appointing judge after judge to lifetime appointments who are eager to keep women and minorities in their positions as second-class citizens, as well as stripping away health care and safety nets from women and children.
The best way for me to atone for my wrongs is to work, in the halls of government, to help shape an American society where it would never occur to another man to treat a woman as I did in that photo.”
Thoroughly Pizzled
And in fairness, I also call on Donald Trump, Clarence Thomas, Roy Moore, George H. W. Bush and other harassers to resign all positions and leave public life.
Aleta
@sharl: He’s going for radio and television personality, with one acting credit in high budget political horror movie.
bemused
@rikyrah:
Word.
schrodingers_cat
@jk: IIRC JGC was a big Louis CK fan, I found out about the existence of the man with the crude humor from this site.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@PhoenixRising: I don’t know if it’s a generation gap or a cultural gap.
Or maybe it’s just that I’m fucking tired of the circular firing squads while we’re in a crisis.
And yes, I’m inclined to give him a little more leeway for acting like a 12-yr-old at a time in his life when he was being PAID to act like a 12-yr-old.
Yeah, my opinion of comedians as a profession really is that low.
I’ve been saying for weeks that I’m getting a moral panic vibe around this subject. That vibe is hella strong right this minute.
All that said, my real criticism is that we’re having a rush to judgement right now. Personally, I’m giving this mess 24 hours to see how he handles it. First statements when someone is caught by surprise are almost always weak.
PhoenixRising
@Nicole: Your offer to work for Democrats and decent men in politics is on its way.
Perfect, and easy to recall because it’s true.
SatanicPanic
@mike in dc: he was a middle-aged man when this happened, do you really want to bet that this was the only time he did something like this?
Bobby Thomson
@PJ: this.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Well this is America, so Franken will be forced to resign and Roy Moore will be elected. Trump and Thomas will remain in office. So we got that goin’ for us.
SatanicPanic
@schrodingers_cat: Trump.
MJS
My initial reaction was that calling for him to resign was over the top. But now that I know Minnesota has a Democratic Governor who will (better?) appoint a Democratic replacement, I think he should resign. I know it sounds craven, but we don’t lose anything numbers-wise, and we get to take the high road. On his way out the door, Franken can say, “I take responsibilities for my actions. Now, Mr. President, it’s time for you to do the same.” And every D who is asked about it can say the same thing.
opiejeanne
@schrodingers_cat: I’m with you, no resignation is necessary and he doesn’t work where this happened any more where this BS was common. On the 1-10 scale of abuse this is about a 5. He kissed her forcibly. He didn’t whip out his dick, he didn’t masturbate in front of her, she doesn’t say he groped her, and he didn’t rape her or try to. What he did was WRONG! and infuriating but far less wrong than Roy Moore’s behavior. I’ve been to 5 and I’ve been to 10 and while it’s totally disgusting I’d much prefer the 5, thankyouverymuch.
I will add that I don’t understand the photograph. He doesn’t actually have his hands on her (which was my first impression) but her eyes are closed. Is he pretending to grope her while she’s out cold? Meh. Stupid.
bemused
@rikyrah:
Amazing coincidence!
Fair Economist
@jk:
This is the misrepresentation of the Clinton affair: he did NOT abuse his power for sexual gain. Lewinsky sought out a sexual affair with him and he didn’t refuse strongly enough. At the time of the affair he wasn’t even her boss anymore; she’d been transferred by staffers who thought *she* was acting creepy. It was a violation of workplace policies and (presumably) marital vows, but not abuse of power.
AnderJ
Seems like a no brainer:
1. What he did was wrong.
2. Democrats should lead by example. Further, if he doesn’t step down, this will decrease Doug Jones’ chances.
Timurid
Before Republicans crow too much they must understand that total, impartial enforcement of a new standard that “any history of sexual misconduct disqualifies a politician” ends with Trump’s resignation.
bemused
@aimai:
Yes.
Patricia Kayden
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:As several commenters have said before, MN has a Democratic Governor who will replace Franken with a Democratic Senator so in political terms, Franken’s resignation will be a wash. It’s too bad that his political career may end on such a sour note but he chose to engage in the misconduct so there is that.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
I don’t know…resigning seems like a bit much. I’ve had drunken women kiss and grope me when I wasn’t expecting or even wanting it to happen during my misspent youth. Would I demand any of them to resign their jobs over it, whatever those jobs are or where ever those women are these days? No, I do not want or expect them to resign their jobs. I can’t really say I’ve been permanently traumatized by the experience. Franken is a good legislator. If something more – a pattern of doing this repeatedly, something really serious like rape or attempted rape, going after girls below the age of majority…well, then he should resign. If this was an isolated incident I’m not going to expect him to resign over it but he should definitely offer a more full throated apology and explanation.
Boatboy_srq
@Crashman: No, their excuse for Moore is that 20 years ago two consenting adults did some questionably-ethical extramarital stuff in the WH and weren’t sent to prison for it, so now it’s OK for GOTea elected officials to diddle children without consequence.
schrodingers_cat
Al Franken should resign if and when Trump does. Period.
satby
Interesting. When you enlarge the picture, his hands don’t appear to actually be touching her. So should he resign for a fake assault?
@mike in dc:
That worries me too.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@MJS: Exactly. I don’t think the man is a monster, and he’s done good work, but from this point forward he’s a political liability. Thank him for his services and move on.
mike in dc
@SatanicPanic: There’s this thing called a “burden of proof” and another thing called “the benefit of the doubt”. Resignation is the death of his political career. Before we send him to the metaphorical firing squad, perhaps some kind of due process might be in order? Just a thought.
PJ
@MJS: And that will change absolutely nothing for the better, but it will embolden Republicans as they dismantle the safety net and shut down investigation into Trump’s relationship with the Russians.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
McConnell has called for an ethics committee investigation
@jk: I’ve always thought Clinton was saved when the Rs went for impeachment, but it’s so long ago I don’t have a clear grasp on the timeline.
matt
He should resign. If a photo like this of me at my job or any old job came out, I’d lose my job. Why should we have lower standards for US Senators?
SatanicPanic
@schrodingers_cat: So we have two parties that are on the record being OK with this sort of thing? I’m not OK with that.
schrodingers_cat
@Patricia Kayden: Franken has been relentless in questioning Sessions, do you know that his replacement will be able to that. People are not fungible like electrons.
Amaranthine RBG
Yes, Franken should resign immediately
It’s a shame that we’ll lose his vote against Obamacare repeal and against tax cuts for corporations and the 1% but this is a matter of PRINCIPLE !!!!!
TenguPhule
Yeah No.
Fuck the Fucking Circular Firing Squad.
What the fuck is wrong with all of you idiots calling for Sen Franken to Resign NOW?
WE HAVE A FUCKING TAX ABOMINATION TRYING TO PASS THE FUCKING SENATE AND WE NEED EVERY SINGLE FUCKING VOTE WE HAVE.
Fuck this holier then thou bullshit, we were willing to put up with a CONVICTED FUCKING FELON in the Senate as long as he voted D because the danger to the country IS REALLY THAT BAD.
Sen Franken can resign when we have a 61 Senate majority, Donald Trump and his entire cabinet is in prison or dead AND NOT ONE FUCKING DAY SOONER.
Fuck, and people wonder why I think our country is going to collapse into Civil War. The good guys are almost as fucking stupid as the bad guys.
Fair Economist
@mike in dc:
Would you believe McConnell is being the voice of reason on this? He’s calling for the Senate Ethics Committee to investigate – which is about as reasonable a response as I can think of.
Irony Abounds
I love Al Franken, but I think he’ll have to resign unless someone who was there when the photo was shot comes forward with some exonerating information (e.g., she wasn’t asleep and was in on the joke). Keep in mind Ms. Tweeden pops up on Hannity on a semi-regular basis, so there’s that. Also, it is odd that she said she showed her husband the photo when she hadn’t even met him yet. I suppose she could have pulled the photo out two years later when she did meet him, but that again seems a bit odd.
SatanicPanic
@mike in dc: Why is this man’s career that important? There’s not another non-handsy Democrat in MN to replace him?
schrodingers_cat
@SatanicPanic: The parties are not equivalent. I don’t expect my politicians to be God-like figures.
ETA: If more shit about him comes out, I reserve the right to change my opinion.
satby
It’s also good to know we want to hold a guy doing stand up comedy at the time to a higher standard than a guy who was a DA.
Not equivalent. Stop getting distracted by the puke funnel v2.
matt
@TenguPhule: The Democratic governor of his state can appoint a replacement. He should arrange so his resigning doesn’t result in an interruption of duty.
grubert
This accusation against Franken is doing exactly what Moore would like his voters to think Moore’s accusers are doing; making innocent fun look like aggressive abuse.
So it’s going to work on Alabama voters, which is all that matters.
SatanicPanic
@Amaranthine RBG: can you please explain how this would affect passage or non-passage of those bills?
Repatriated
@schrodingers_cat: Yep. Franken ought to make an explicit statement to that effect, explicitly contingent on Trump’s resignation being solely on sexual misconduct grounds.
WaterGirl
@aimai:
Me, too.
Have you guys never heard the saying about throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
jk
@Fair Economist:
In addition to the Lewinsky affair, don’t forget Kathleen Wiley and Juanita Broderick. Clinton should have resigned for all of this. Cole is a fucking hypocrite. He calls for Franken’s resignation, but he still worships at the altar of Bill Clinton whose behavior towards women was far worse..
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat: Come sit by me.
PJ
@AnderJ: Do you seriously think that someone inclined to vote for Doug Jones would say, “Well, I was going to vote for Jones because, when it’s a choice between a nutjob child molester and a decent, upstanding, effective prosecutor, I’ll vote for the good citizen, but because Al Franken made an asinine joke and took advantage of a comedy skit to kiss an actress, I just can’t bring myself to vote for the good citizen”? WTF.
MJS
@PJ: How will it “embolden Republicans”? He’ll be replaced by a Democrat. And face it, his effectiveness on any issue in at least the short term is virtually zero. What, he’s going to go on the Sunday shows now and be taken seriously? The entirety of the interview won’t be about what he did?
lamh36
well wasn’t that quick!
PaulWartenberg
This is, right here, the best reasonable argument about why we need more women candidates and elected officials.
Unless we can build gender-neutral androids to serve as elected officials the way Isaac Asimov intended.
And even then we gotta worry.
Right now, every male elected official is suspect. Except Obama. I hope. (OH GOD PLEASE NO NOT HIM PLEASE NO)
muddy
I don’t think he needs to resign for that photo. It’s tasteless, but he’s not actually touching her.
grubert
John, I’m surprised you and other old timers here are so easily misled by an obvious smear campaign.
And I’m noticing a lot of new commenters appearing from nowhere to call for Franken’s resignation.
SatanicPanic
@schrodingers_cat: Is sticking your tongue in someone’s mouth without asking normal behavior? I’ve managed to spend a couple decades in the workforce and have never done that to a coworker.
Thoroughly Pizzled
What do we lose if Franken resigns? In the intervening period, one Democratic vote in the Senate, which does matter, and is very ill-timed. Maybe they could arrange so that his replacement starts immediately. Once the replacement comes through, we’ll be back to where we are.
What do we lose if Franken stays? How many voters will stay home with him still in the party? Is Senator Al Franken the key to winning back Congress? Will we do better in 2018 and 2020 with him in the Senate?
To me, the choice is clear. He should go.
WaterGirl
I have grown accustomed to saying “what the fuck is wrong with these people” but I never expected to need to say it to half of the people posting on a BJ thread.
To anyone who is saying Al Franken should resign… you want him to resign over a tasteless joke and possibly a forced kiss? Jesus Fucking Christ, what is wrong with everyone?
You want 13 million people to lose health care over this? You want the tax plan that will screw over everyone but the rich for over 10 years?
The Moar You Know
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: That’s a choice Dems can choose to make. Or not. But don’t pretend we’re being forced to play by two different sets of rules here, because we are not. We’re choosing to do this to ourselves.
mike in dc
@SatanicPanic:
Why is your career important? Is it okay if I destroy your life and public reputation forever based upon some semi-serious shit you did 11 years ago? Without investigating things further? Even if it’s a one-off? Because that’s what we’re talking about here. Ruining this guy’s public life and reputation. There’s no Ctrl-Z button if we get this wrong.
debit
Please. I worked for a company owned by right wing nut jobs that were deeply involved in the local GOP. Example: the husband picked up McCain from the airport when he was campaigning against Bush. The wife told stories all the time about then Senator Norm Coleman, each story featuring how he’d get totally shit faced and then grab the ass and/or tits of any reasonably attractive woman who walked by, including her. She thought it was a hoot. Oh that Norm!
This does not excuse Franken. But I can bet you anything that every single person in office has done something that could come back to haunt them. Will every single one resign?
Spider-Dan
These calls for resignation strike me as the same kind of asymmetrical response as “Money corrupts politics, therefore we should stop accepting all money now while the GOP continues to take all the rest.”
On the one hand, a GOP Senate candidate molested underage girls and loudly rejects all responsibility. On the other hand, a Dem Senator once made up a weak excuse to try to kiss a woman, was intentionally photographed by the media simulating grabbing her breasts in his previous job as a comedian, and immediately apologized when this went public. Both sides should resign!
This merits an apology, which was given. The idea that a Republican would resign over this is ridiculous. I understand that we need to be better than them – and we are – but that doesn’t mean that we impose harsh self-discipline for the same things they dismiss offhand.
Miss Bianca
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: yeah, this. And all of you men who are calling for Franken to resign – please. Focus on your own goddamned selves. Maybe it IS a generational thing – but, as I said, I had to put up with sexual harrassment shit – up to and including groping along the lines that this woman claims to have undergone – from a lot of sleazy actors/directors/musicians who have done a LOT less for the world than Al Franken. Can you say the same?
And funnily enough, *I’m* the one asking you to cut it the fuck out with your moral purity outrage until you have a lot more proof of skeevy behavior than what we have on offer. Stop offering to shoot us all in the foot and then proudly saying, “see how much I care about sexual harrassment?”
GROWL.
schrodingers_cat
@SatanicPanic: No its not normal.
grubert
@jk:
Kathleen Wiley and Juanita Broderick claims were completely investigated by Independent Council Kenneth Starr and he found nothing to prosecute.
SatanicPanic
@WaterGirl:
Presuming he was a no vote on both, and his replacement is a no vote on both, I don’t see how Al Franken matters here.
jk
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m for consistency. I’m as sickened and disgusted by men abusing or degrading women, whether those men be liberal Democrats or conservative Republicans. I wish more people could resist the ugly temptation to defend men on their side of the political spectrum while calling for the scalps of abusers on the opposite side.
cintibud
All this makes me thing of another situation – If Robert Byrd was still alive and in the senate, should he resign since he was a former KKK member? Seems that was a bit more serious.
ETA – or should he have resigned as soon as that news became public?
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know: Come sit by me.
PJ
@MJS: Do they still talk about Trump’s pussy-grabbing on the Sunday shows? No. And who gives a rat’s ass about Sunday talk shows anyway? The point of having a good representative is not that they look good on talk shows, it’s that they are effective legislators. Franken has done a great job at grilling Sessions and calling out Republicans on their BS arguments for repealing Obamacare. He is not simply replaceable by another Democrat.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
The fact is that one D vote, more or less, can’t stop the R tax plan. McConnell says he has fifty votes, 50 + Pence wins.
petesh
Oh, fuck off, Cole. Zero to resign in 10 seconds? That’s bullshit.
SatanicPanic
@mike in dc: I’m sure everything you said is important to Al Franken, but I am not Al Franken.
TomatoQueen
Resign. I like Al too, or at least I’ve laffed at some of his jokes. But on last night’s local news (Washington DC area broadcasts) women in a position to know (Hill) were saying that there’s at least one D and one R known currently to engage in harassing behavior toward women working in staff positions. These interviews were repeated on both the Sinclair stations and the libruls through 7:30 pm when they went to the gossip show. Both the D and the R in question were not identified in any way. Now there’s a plausible D. He can take one for the team and get the focus back where it belongs, or he can let the Rs win. Shit choice, law & sausages.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic: You think this will stop with Franken? Give the GOP any openings and they will exploit it.
Its who they are.
dr. bloor
Franken, like Bill Clinton, serves to again remind us that the correlation between intellectual ability and judgment is probably close to zero, if not a negative number.
He’s gotta go. I’m going to miss him kicking sand in the faces of Republican nimrods.
BBA
Desperate times call for desperate measures. We need a zero-tolerance presumptive-guilt framework for these things. Make it so people with these things in their past never run to begin with.
Yes, Franken should resign. As should my male Senator, Chuck Schumer, and my Congressman, Jerry Nadler, because I’m certain they’ve done far worse that hasn’t come out yet.
grubert
Franken deserves criticism for choosing to do a risqué USO comedy sketch with a woman who would later be employed at the FOX network.
Darkrose
@SatanicPanic: The workplace in this instance was rehearsal for a skit where the characters were supposed to kiss.
TenguPhule
@WaterGirl: Come sit by me.
cokane
i dont think an immediate resignation is called for here. it’s one accusation at this point and one he’s denying. probably happened as she tells it, but i dont think it’s right to insist on sudden resignations from one accusation of a non-monstrous sort. i think if more accusations surface, perhaps even just one more, then there’s reason to resign.
And even if true, this one accusation isnt even Louis CK level bad, much less the level of bad of Moore or Trump. So I wouldnt be outraged if he’s say censured by the Senate and then stays on.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@SatanicPanic: Maybe the difference between Scalia and Silent Clarence? They voted the same, but one was a lot more aggressive in casting that vote than the other.
Thoroughly Pizzled
He’s done a lot for us. But how can he continue to help us, without definitive proof that he’s being set up? He won’t be able to be an effective Senator for much longer.
Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton managed, but that was a different, lesser time, and we shouldn’t go back.
The Moar You Know
@TenguPhule: This is the only thing you said I have a problem with. The bad guys are not smart but understand without winning, you have nothing. The good guys not only don’t understand that, but are yelling at the top of their lungs that not only do we need to disarm, we need to dig our own graves and lie down in them so as not to inconvenience the people who are coming for our blood. The GOP is not being the stupid party here. We are.
Fucking GOP has everything and you dumb fuckers want the smartest guy on our side to resign. Fuck me. My lifetime as a Democrat has mostly been one long slog of disappointment with occasional glimmers of hope, but reading the reaction here today is too much. I did not sign onto a lifetime commitment to losing when I registered as a Dem back in 1984 – and it’s sure starting to seem that maybe I did and just didn’t see that fine print at the bottom of the contract.
msdc
@Rex: Why don’t we send somebody to check her countertops while we’re at it?
Seriously, let’s not do this. Investigate the story by all means, find out what happened, but don’t start pre-emptively attacking the accuser. That’s what the Trumps and Roy Moores do whenever they get caught, and we rightly despise them for it.
SatanicPanic
@Darkrose: I bet Harvey Weinstein just had to rehearse stuff too
Peale
@BBA: Huh? So now Senators need to resign even before they’ve been accused because you think they might be in the future?
cokane
@TomatoQueen: this is bullshit and frankly a far more monstrous approach than Franken’s forced kiss. If there’s a D in Congress who is a serial harasser that person needs to be found out. Having someone else fall on that sword is not right.
sherparick
@WaterGirl: No, but with a Democratic Governor in Minnesota his replacement would be a Democrat. And even if not, I am sorry, but this is beyond the pale behavior, because we are talking about a sexual assault (putting his hands on her chest, even with a kevlar jacket, while she was asleep would get a soldier a year confinement of hard labor if discharged – and people are wondering why there a sexual assault problem in the military in during Iraq and Afghanistan wars since this was the attitude male soldiers were encouraged to have to their female comrades.)
Fanken (and all the others men) had just remembered the simple rules of courtesy they would not have to be explaining so much shit.
BBA
@grubert: Starr was acting strategically based on what was most likely to survive a legal challenge. He had no moral qualms with covering for sexual abuse, as his time at Baylor shows.
There are people who are almost certainly guilty of rape but who could never be held legally responsible due to a lack of concrete evidence. Woody Allen is the most prominent example.
satby
@aimai: and all of this too.
mike in dc
@SatanicPanic: So you don’t care about your job or your reputation among your family, friends or peers? I am dubious.
? Martin
Not a defense for Franken, but comedy is about walking up to that line but not going over, and everyone occasionally goes over if that’s their career. Some of those excesses do need to be excused for comedians as an occupational hazard. All that said, there’s that same power imbalance between Franken and Tweeden that was being exploited and that shit just has to stop, and its going to require taking down people that we like to get it to really change.
Amir Khalid
My (male) foreigner’s take: What Al Franken did, that one time as far as we know, was juvenile and reprehensible. But is there a pattern of predatory behaviour? Are there other credible accusers? If yes, and if Franken suffers a big hit to his credibility and effectiveness that makes him a liability to his party, then he should consider resigning. If this incident was a one-off, he deserves all the embarrassment he gets over it but he shouldn’t think about quitting.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic: I’d wait for at least two more separate confirmations before condemning him on the basis of just one.
Trey
@Betty Cracker: Yes, he should. And quickly. The picture is enough
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@SatanicPanic: Somehow, I don’t think that “acting like a middle schooler” is part of your job description.
Barbara
@schrodingers_cat: If I were Franken I wouldn’t resign but I wouldn’t run again. I don’t think this is bad enough for resignation — not on its own. Now, if we start getting multiple accusers, that would be reason to reassess. It WAS an abuse of position, there is no doubt, but since (as the picture proves) there were other people around, it falls in the category of gross and disgusting more than threatening or intended to cause harm. I am not making fine gradations here, but mugging for the camera while you look like you are going to grab someone’s breasts is stupid and makes light of something that isn’t funny, but it doesn’t qualify as assault even thought it would have creeped me out (as it evidently did the accuser).
cokane
@? Martin: ehhh that defense doesnt really work with this accusation. it works with the photo. but not with the rehearsal full on tongue kiss
Vheidi
@schrodingers_cat: that’s my first reaction, too
sharl
Ugh, dammit Al!
My 62 year-old dude brain sees things that were once explained away or even laughed off, but need to be dealt with seriously – even if there is risk and pain involved – if we hope to leave the world slightly better than the one we were born into. As noted above, a better apology from Franken would have been a vastly improved first step over the pablum he delivered.
A story: In the past year or so I had an exchange on Twitter with a young Saudi woman who was explaining her love of poetry. I expressed my envy, being as I am aesthetically challenged in this regard, and as a joke linked to a YouTube clip of a Monty Python skit about the Scottish poet Ewan McTeagle, whose “poems” have a common theme of borrowing money. I made the joke that the only way I would know a good poem from a bad one is if some kind of monetary valuation was built directly into the verse, as was done by McTeagle.
……I noticed in the video something that hadn’t bothered me years ago – at the 1m3s and 1m48s marks were very brief scenes of sexual assault, presented for comedic effect. I went ahead and attached the video to my tweet, with a note to the young Arab woman pointing out the inappropriate content, with a statement to the effect that “it was a different time”. And indeed it was; that same skit would work fine without those bits, and they would hopefully not be included in any good comedy done today. I now wonder how many who saw that skit way back when were quietly stressed or otherwise triggered, but could say nothing because of the times, so to speak. (As much as Monty Python loved mocking everyone, they had a special love for razzing the Scots, but they could have done so without these bits. But I doubt there were major protests about it back in the day.)
I don’t know where the Franken thing should go, but as a first step my fellow older dude needs to at least come up with a better apology, one that shows a (hopefully sincere) understanding of how fucked up this was. And just because it was “OK” back then because no one complained publicly, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t in actual fact fucked up even back then.
Maybe he should resign even if he does come up with a worthwhile apology, but he should definitely resign if he cannot even take that first step.
mike in dc
@sherparick:
It’s not proven by the photo that he actually groped her, and the forcible kissing is an allegation with no 3rd party witnesses. We can believe her with respect to the latter, but is this the resignation threshold? If that’s the threshold for resignation, Donald Trump should be forced to douse himself with gasoline and strike a match on public television.
gvg
for pete’s sake, we can’t demand everyone resign over 1 accusation. That’s a good way to discredit accusations. Wait and see. the momentum NOW unlike other times in my life is that if it’s a pattern, more will come forward and corroborating details will be found by reporters. We’ll know shortly. Of course if it has been a pattern Franken already knows so he might go ahead and resign. I don’t think we will have to wait long.
As for Bill should of resigned, boy is that revisionist hogwash. Bill veto’ed bills that frightened me on a regular basis. I am afraid I think his government work was more important than his personal life even though I recognized the conflict in signals. I really don’t think Gore was as good on women’s rights and there were a lot of issues concerning that then. Clinton resigning would have been a serious loss to women’s equal rights. also several other important issues but those weren’t seemingly directly betrayed by his affair. I learned to care about the votes and that I can’t get perfect human representatives.
That is actually part of my outrage at Moore too. He has shown by past public actions how he will vote and his personal and public aspects are the same threat to me. No wonder i am more outrages than Alabama apparently is.
BBA
@Peale: Show me a white male politician and I’ll show you a sexual predator.
SatanicPanic
@mike in dc: I care about mine. That’s why I have never been photographed pretending (or actually?) groping a sleeping woman. It was easy for me to avoid that because I’ve never groped (or pretended to grope) a sleeping woman because that’s not funny.
rp
Some of you have lost your minds. That photo is a little tasteless, but he’s not touching her and it’s obviously a silly joke.
Her story is disturbing, but it’s possible that she’s exaggerating and there’s no pattern at this point.
burnspbesq
Yes, Franken should go—but not until every Republican who is credibly accused of similar behavior is gone, and it’s certain that his seat will stay in Democratic hands.
What is it with Democrats and unilateral disarmament?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@cokane: My reaction to that is the exact opposite: A Hannity regular talking about a skit that went too far is a weak accusation. It’s the picture that gives the accusation weight.
Villago Delenda Est
Franken should resign…right after Donald Trump does.
bemused
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Exactly.
I don’t get the rush to write off Franken immediately. The photo looked more like a juvenile comic thing to me. Wait and see if there is more substance to go on. I would not be surprised if the rightwing throws a whole bunch of Dems into the firing squad almost at once to muddy up the water. They fight dirty, we know they lie and too many liberals have instant panic attacks. Are we going to demand that a dozen Dems resign en masse within an hour of a news report? Have some patience and a little healthy skepticism before you all give yourselves panty wedgies.
PJ
I feel like everyone calling for Franken’s resignation has fully assimilated David Brooks. They want him to go, not because it’s the right thing for the country, but because it would be unseemly for him to stay in office.
Villago Delenda Est
@rp: She works for Faux Noise. This alone tells you everything there is to tell you about her credibility.
SatanicPanic
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Is that really what we expected out of middle-aged men in 2006 though?
rp
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I get that, but the picture is nothing.
TenguPhule
Leeann Tweeden, A regular guest commenter on Sean Hannity’s show on Fox Fake News Network.
GIANT GRAIN OF SALT NOW ON ALLEGATIONS.
Lolis
I was just having a discussion with a guy I’m dating last week about sexual harassment/consent. He has had very little exposure to ideas of consent, etc and was very open to discussion. He had a very high bar for what constituted rape harassment but was rethinking it. He’s a solid guy but I told him that he had probably done things/said things that were highly inappropriate or sexually degrading to woman. Honestly, most men have. If Franken has a pattern of this behavior he should resign. I believe the woman. Many guys are nervous about this topic, as they should be. At this point I don’t think he should resign. What he did is very different than any sexual behavior with a minor. That is a clear sex crime. Trump also bragged about walking in on teenagers dressing rooms. At this point, I think we can wait and see.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
A base that demands to be “inspired” and still can’t be bothered to turn out for midterms. Change that, and we change the world
Cacti
@grubert:
Broaddrick explicitly denied her story under oath. Twice.
Her greatest personal venom also seemed to be reserved for Hillary, rather than her alleged rapist.
I know it’s not a popular opinion to have these days, but sounds a lot like a jilted ex-lover.
Miss Bianca
@The Moar You Know:
You and I, I have noticed, do not agree on many and many a thing, but boy do we agree on this.
MisterForkbeard
@Amir Khalid: This is my exact same reaction. Until we hear of more accusations, this is mild and not indicative of a pattern. He deserves approbation and embarrassment, which he’s currently getting in spades.
This changes if more women (especially if they’re not regular Hannity guests with obvious political agendas) come forward.
TenguPhule
@PJ: Come sit by me.
I feel like I have slipped into an alternate universe where John Cole and half of the people here have lost their minds.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@burnspbesq: This isn’t unilateral disarmament. Stuff like forgoing SuperPACs and campaign donations is pointless, but ditching a real liability is basic strategy.
Can people at least acknowledge that keeping Franken will have real costs to us in the eyes of voters? What does he bring to the table that’s worth demoralizing the rising tide of angry women? Do we even think that he can win reelection at this point?
Amir Khalid
@Barbara:
If this thing doesn’t blow up into a parade of accusers, and if Franken can live it down and maintain his creditable performance as a Senator and a Democrat, I see no reason why he shouldn’t run again.
kindness
John is that snark or are you serious? Do you really think Franken should resign?
I think he did the right thing apologizing. I appreciate he thinks his actions in the photo were inappropriate now and said so.
But resign? Really???!?
kg
@Rex: Ok rex. Make sure you check the kerning on the article too.
Darkrose
@SatanicPanic: I’m not saying it was right, just that it’s not exactly a typical office workspace, and doing the ”what if it was your office” doesn’t really apply.
SatanicPanic
@burnspbesq:
What battle are we fighting that this constitutes disarmament?
cokane
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: you misunderstood me. theres no way to argue the rehearsal kiss, done in private, is a comedian merely stepping over the line
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
I stand corrected.
But her emails!!!
The charges are serious. The picture in question however is incongruous with the charges made by the alleged victim in the Washington Post. Franken’s not actually touching her or even the jacket in the image, let alone grabbing her as is claimed.
schrodingers_cat
@But her emails!!!: That’s what I thought.
Barbara
@Cacti: On the surface, Juanita Broaddrick had the most credible story, but she gave a statement under oath that exonerated Clinton. At times, however, she tried to repudiate that statement, but she utterly refused to do so under oath. It’s obvious that she was used by other people for their own ends and after a while, the truth, whatever it is, just gets lost in the crossfire.
TenguPhule
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
If we’re going to condemn Democrats at the drop of a single Fox Republican’s accusation, we might as well just burn the Constitution and save the GOP the effort.
bemused
@Lolis:
Your friend should see the GMA interview with Terry Crews who was groped by a male PR guy in public. Powerful.
cokane
@Cacti: I will never believe Broaddrick, tho I’m not going to try and pretend I know what the truth was. But one, her alleged violent rape doesn’t match any other accusation against Clinton. Whereas the other accusations actually have a similar M.O. 2nd, as you said, she lied when given the opportunity to tell her story.
Third, her endorsement of Trump. I could understand a woman supporting Trump over Clinton, but Broaddrick’s support (even post election) of Trump is so fulsome as to be incredible. I just cannot believe that a woman who cares about sexual assault is either ignorant or refuses to believe the accusations against Trump.
tobie
@MarkK:
Is this true? The fact that Roger Stone knew something was coming last night is also weird. Smells to me like a classic ratfvcking maneuver. As I see this, right now we have a disputed single instance. I’m not willing to throw Franken under the bus yet.
Barbara
@Amir Khalid: Yes, maybe. The fact that he was a comedian who did stupid stuff like this for a living probably helps to explain it as a tasteless joke. Seriously, this was done FOR the camera.
WaterGirl
@sherparick:
Are you fucking kidding me?
It’s perfectly obvious from the photo that he wasn’t actually touching her. It was a tasteless bit of humor that wasn’t funny. Sure.
But I’ll bet if we look at Saturday Night Live in 2005 there were tons of bits that were seen as funny then that would be clearly seen as sexist now. This would be an impossible standard that most men would never be able to meet. Let’s not toss one of our best senators over this.
Show me evidence that Franken molests little girls? He should resign immediately. Show me evidence that Franken raped someone? He should resign immediately. But to resign over this? Ridiculous! To resign over this in this political climate, with this president and with republicans supporting Moore in Alabama? Political suicide.
I am completely shocked by people’s reactions to this.
schrodingers_cat
@SatanicPanic: The fight for our very existence as a democracy.
mike in dc
My hope is that Sen. Franken goes on air promptly with a refined apology and addresses the allegations directly. I don’t think the standard for resignation should be a single alleged, uninvestigated incident of intermediate seriousness, committed years ago while not in office. It should be either an intermediate incident with some corroboration committed while in office, or a serious credible incident committed at any time, or a pattern of misconduct committed over the years, including while in office. One of the concepts behind punishment/justice is proportionality. The punishment should fit the offense.
BBA
You can’t smash the patriarchy without breaking a few eggs.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: The stupid it burns.
Amir Khalid
@SatanicPanic:
Weinstein himself isn’t an actor. What would he have to “rehearse”?
MaryL
@guachi:
I don’t expect perfection. I expect people not to prey on and humiliate vulnerable people for their own amusement. That photo is not just “not funny.” It’s a fucking violation of a sleeping women. I don’t care if he didn’t touch her. I don’t care if a million other men in Hollywood, politics, or any other industry have done worse. What he did is NOT OK.
Does he need to resign? I don’t know. But he can start by showing some actual fucking remorse and and understanding that his behavior was 100% unacceptable, no excuses, no “I didn’t mean it that way,” no “it was just a joke.”
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic: A rush to be the first to condemn one of our more effective Senators in the party on the sole word of a Fox Republican.
This is what happens when lying liars lie. Anything coming from anyone who slings professional bullshit there automatically gets doubted.
Kay
Damn. He was my presidential candidate! I’m serious- I just decided that like a week ago.
different-church-lady
Can I resign? Seems like a much faster solution from my vantage point…
'Niques
Why is everyone ignoring the fact that Al Franken allegedly acted inappropriately toward an ADULT WOMAN, while Moore was pursuing CHILDREN?!!
Mnemosyne
@MisterForkbeard:
This is what I’m leaning towards right now. If after 30 years in the public eye there’s only this one accusation, then I’m not sure that immediate resignation is the right way to go.
But if Franken knows that there’s more of this stuff in his past — and he’s too smart not to know — he should get ahead of the story and resign quickly.
MarkK
Photographer has just stated the photo was staged. It’s fake, like the liars on Fox.
McConnell just called for an ethics investigation into Franken. Why don’t all you purity hysterical jump to conclusions jerks go join the evil Mitch and ruin a good mans career and the country too
SatanicPanic
@Thoroughly Pizzled: I don’t know how people don’t get this undermines our credibility. It’s plainly obvious that “Roy Moore is bad, Donald Trump is bad, Al Franken is different” sure sounds lame to me. And it’s going to sound doubly lame to voters. No what he did was not as bad, but still. And we don’t know that this is the end of it. Franken’s response sure sounds like that of a man who doesn’t want more women to come forward.
Cacti
The photo is tasteless and an apology was appropriate.
The accusation is disturbing, if true. As the accuser is a Hannity protégé and not without a political agenda, I will wait to see if additional information corroborates her story before I demand Franken’s head on a platter.
TenguPhule
@mike in dc:
Instead we get the BJ Lynch mob turning on the wrong target.
/Sigh
MJS
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Here’s a crazy idea – Franken resigns, because he knows he can’t be an effective Senator in the short-term, and the short-term is very important right now. In his place, the Gov. of Minnesota appoints a 1) Democratic 2) female with 3) a legal background who can pick up where Franken left off in challenging the lies of Sessions, et al. Otherwise, the next time Franken tries to question a Trump appointee in a hearing, expect the response to be “No Senator, I don’t recall, just like you don’t recall forcibly kissing a female colleague.”
Mnemosyne
Also, too, this is what Adam was saying last week: there will be accusations against people on our side, and if those accusations are as well-sourced and well-founded as the ones against Moore or Weiner, those people have to go.
But there’s also a good possibility that people are going to make things up or exaggerate them, so we do need to have a standard of evidence.
schrodingers_cat
@MarkK: Meanwhile, Putin laughs at our credulity.
Scotian
OK, I want to make sure this dumb Canuck is following this correctly.
Roy Moore, a person who has been a highly respected member of his community throughout his professional life (last I checked, DAs, prosecutors, judges, Supreme Court Judges, these are generally considered highly respectable and respected offices that have additional codes of ethics governing them on top of criminal laws, right?) has multiple well sourced publicly made accusations of trolling for teenagers, mostly just at or above the age of consent and one below. We are up to 7 accusers now with 5 of them being really bad.
We have Al Franken, who prior to his Senate run was a life long stand up comic. This is a profession that by its very nature tends to be edgy and crosses lines, not always in good ways. This is a known aspect of that profession. We have a single incident from a source that has clear open links to FOXNEWS as a repeat guest for other issues prior to this. This is supposedly only from a practice run of a skit and the picture looks like a clear staging for a bit (note I am not saying I think it is remotely funny, I do not, but that isn’t the point) too.
Yet his offense is so egregious he must resign now? That this is so abusive, so criminal and so forth that it must be dealt with forthwith (which will BTW increase the false equivalencies between things like Moore is accused of and Franken is as of this writing) because one side must be purer than light? Really?
I have no patience for predators, I do not care about political affiliations, and once I see enough evidence that predatory behaviour exists then that is that. However, so far Franken has one accusation, of what is fairly low level sexual assault (if barely, but it does meet the test/standard and I will not pretend otherwise) that appears to have happened in a public setting, for a USO comedy bit that was intended to be somewhat raunchy in tone, with an adult woman fully aware of what she was getting into to that extent. Now, I can easily believe he overstepped those boundaries and then does not remember it that way, I can also believe she is misremembering things for equally honest reasons, there is a reason why witness testimony is known for its unreliability, especially after many years. Absent more evidence on this incident or of a pattern with multiple examples/victims, it is hard to really know how to take this one.
So I would suggest that people stop with the false equivalency, distinguish between boorish and bad behaviour that is not predatory and just horrible judgment versus what is clearly abusive predatory grooming behaviour as seen with Moore. So far Franken’s case is questionable, and his response while weak is also not trying to pretend nothing happened, just that memories differ but he still apologized for having hurt/offended this woman. That so far seems like a reasonable action, SO LONG AS no further evidence comes out showing patterns for this kind of behaviour. I have to admit her being a semi-regular FOXNEWS guest for so long prior to this coming out does add a question that one does not normally have given the clear ideological and political agenda of that network.
I’m sure I have irked some here, but really, I just do not understand this one, and before anyone dares go there, yes I AM a sexual assault survivor married to another, so I have some degree of understanding of the issues around such. So do NOT critique what I have written by telling me I don’t know what such treatment is like to be on the receiving end. I do.
Major Major Major Major
@PhoenixRising:
I’m 32 and I don’t think he should resign. This is not the same as excusing his behavior.
TenguPhule
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
Rising tide? Based on one photograph that is tasteless now, but was of humorous nature then?
On the word of a Fox Republican that’s not worth the paper its written on?
There’s justified outrage and then there’s witchhunt. This is increasingly leaning to witch hunt.
Chip Daniels
Before we gather wood for a witchburning, let’s pause a moment.
Are we open to hearing a confession?
What if he asks forgiveness, would we grant it?
Is there the opportunity for redemption and growth?
The calls for strategic execution of Franken are as morally bankrupt as strategic support.
Emma
Well, you’ve all convinced me. I’m getting the hell out of this country as soon as I can. Democrats will always surrender prematurely and I really don’t have the energy or the time to even try to fix it. Enjoy your high morals and explain to the mothers of uninsured children why dying for a principle is such a good thing.
Booger
@eemom: don’t look at me…
schrodingers_cat
Franken was a particularly effective questioner about the whole Russia mess and Sessions role in it. There is more to this story than meets the eye.
Darkrose
@MJS: To which the response should be, “Like the President?”
Hoodie
Ok, we have one allegation of an assault in a comedy related context, made by an adult woman who appears to have ties to right wing politicians. She may be correct, but the context is ambiguous and her credibility is somewhat suspect. Contrast with a president who explicitly brags about grabbing women’s genitalia and six (as of this morning) women who are alleging that a senate candidate sought amorous liaisons with underage girls, and assaulted some of them. Said senate candidate also appears to have been notorious for such behavior. If an isolated incident, Franken’s behavior was boorish and proper for reprimand. But that’s all, unless you show a pattern of such behavior and/or a more serious incident with evidence of intent to commit sexual assault. Get a grip. The reason we believe Moore’s accusers is the sheer number of them. Wait and see if the same is the case with Franken. If so, he’ll have to resign.
Cacti
@Barbara:
That, more than anything, is the nail in the coffin.
Any time she was faced with penalty of perjury, she disavowed everything. Not once, but twice. Starr even offered her immunity from perjury if she changed her story.
different-church-lady
Starfish
@Miss Bianca: It’s not a generational thing. A lot of people had to put up with sexual harassment. My husband is sitting here saying that it was terrible that this woman was being groped in her sleep, and does he know that worse happened to his wife? I honestly don’t know.
Even so, there has to be a path to redemption. We can’t slap a sexual harasser sticker on all the dudes and banish them from public life. There are dudes demanding Franken resign now who are insisting that the Roy Moore’s yearbook signature was a forgery.
SatanicPanic
@MarkK: I was only able to find an unsourced story on Democratic Underground. Do you have a link?
ruemara
@Miss Bianca: Thank you. I swear, we’re supposed to be pure saints, meanwhile the GOP get to be utter slime. EVERY ENTERTAINER YOU LIKE HAS DONE SHIT LIKE THIS. Trump didn’t exist in a vacuum. Powerful people take advantage.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
I think Franken’s response is that of a man who did pretty rough-and-tumble comedy in the 1970s and 1980s and is now frantically trying to remember what he did that seemed fine at the time when he was inside that boys’ club at SNL but that the women he worked with may remember differently.
I will say, given what’s going on right now, if you’re a man and you’re NOT reviewing your past behaviors and wondering if you sometimes pushed too hard or touched someone who didn’t want it, then you’re fooling yourself. But it’s the pattern of behavior that matters, not a one-time lapse of judgement.
TenguPhule
@Scotian:
Come sit by me.
mike in dc
@SatanicPanic:
Roy Moore has been accused by 9 different women who have gone on the record, with 30 sources backing the accounts, including serious allegations of statutory rape and attempted rape.
Donald Trump has been accused by 16+ women who have gone on the record, including serious allegations of sexual assault.
Al Franken has been accused by 1 woman, who just happens to be a frequent Fox News contributor, of a mimed groping and a forcible kiss. Yeah, at this point in time, he IS different. Let’s wait and see before rushing to demand his resignation in disgrace, m’kay?
SFBayAreaGal
Adam did warn all of us more harassment accusations would come out about our side. Guilty as well as innocent people are going to get caught up in this.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@SatanicPanic: I would not be giving someone in a different profession the same leeway. But I really, truly consider the vast majority of comedy to be professional childishness, so I think the stupid photo is a professional hazard.
Of course, you have never heard my comments on the Harlan Ellison incident with Connie Willis, or any of the crap that has been going on in the SFF community in the years since, so I do understand that it looks like I’m excusing Franken. I’m not, just saying that the photo trips my “comedian” disgust meter instead of my “creeper” meter.
I’m also from a culture that prizes both redemption and properly calibrated apologies and, more importantly, doesn’t expect a perfectly-composed-and-delivered apology within minutes of an accusation. All have sinned and mankind is inherently depraved.* I have a bright line between redemption and forgive-but-don’t-quite-trust, and between FBDQT and Never Trust. Franken is eligible for don’t-quite-trust-again territory right now. We’ll see.
*Yeah, I grew up Calvinist. Sort of.
CaseyL
Yes, Franken should resign… right AFTER Trump resigns, and Clarence Thomas resigns, and Doug Jones is seated in the Senate.
dr. luba
An expanded and much better statement from Franken:
https://twitter.com/samstein/status/931215736927899648
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne:
That was yesterday. It only seems like last week.
LurkerNoLonger
Hmmmm. A lot of new commenters in this thread. Interesting….
Suzanne
As a rule, I don’t believe that every act of sexual harassment (or other types of poor behavior) should invalidate someone from serving in a role of prominence. I think that people can learn and get better. All of us are subject to human frailty, and if we are waiting for the perfect person to represent us, we’ll be waiting forever. People make mistakes, and rather than throwing them away, I think it is better to take a timeout and learn to be a better person and then come back. I believe in the three-part apology—and the third part is doing the right thing moving forward. That said, Franken’s response is weaksauce. I am disappointed.
kg
@‘Niques: Because assaulting an adult woman is wrong.
schrodingers_cat
@Scotian: Thank you, you put it better than I did.
@PhoenixRising: BTW your insinuations about my age are wrong. I have worked/studied in male dominated environs, many times I was the only woman in my class/lab/group etc and have had to face my share of misogyny.
different-church-lady
I say we skip the resignations and just move right to voluntary burning at the stake.
bemused
@Scotian:
Bravo.
schrodingers_cat
@LurkerNoLonger: Putin must have activated his basement cell of responders.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: I was thinking about this- we all laughed at some pretty inappropriate stuff in the 80s and earlier. And even now! But this was a man in his 50s. I just find it hard to believe that this was just a one-time thing, and the fact that everyone’s leaping to defend him with some pretty questionable reasoning is disappointing. If he didn’t do anything else then maybe it’s appropriate to accept and apology and move on. But my instinct is that there is more to this.
grubert
@BBA: In general you’re exactly correct.
But Starr had no qualms about spinning a very thin case based on a perjury trap ( did you know that for his testimony Bill had been given a list of term definitions including the word “is” ? That’s puts his “depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is” comment into a whole new light, yes? )
I think the fact that Ken Starr was clearly out to get Clinton on anything he could, *and* he looked into the so-called sex charges and found nothing to work with, is as close to a definitive exoneration as anyone could ever hope for.
Cacti
Does this prove that Bernie would have won?
different-church-lady
@Scotian:Zeitgeist don’t give a shit. Zeitgeist just takes what it wants.
schrodingers_cat
@Cacti: Of course, and he is pure as the washed rice (old Indian saying).
smintheus
Bush did not resign after giving Angela Merkel an unwanted massage. Why should Franken resign for pretending to touch Tweeden? It was crude, obnoxious, and repulsive, but not the assault that Tweeden is making it out to be.
Forcibly kissing her, if true, would be a much more serious offense. I’m willing to believe he did that given his lame apology, but her own account is weirdly grandiose and inaccurate in some ways (she wasn’t married as she claims) so it’s not wise to assume everything she says is fully truthful.
schrodingers_cat
BBA seems like a familiar troll, is he the Brinks Truck full of money troll.
mike in dc
@dr. luba:
This, plus the Ethics Committee investigation, satisfy my concerns. It’s a full-throated apology. The investigation will uncover any additional wrongdoing, and I assume if there are any newer allegations he will likely resign.
Darkrose
@SatanicPanic: Roy Moore chased underaged girls to the point where they banned him from the mall.
Donald Trump bragged about harassing and assaulting women repeatedly. His ex-wife once accused him of raping her (though she later retracted the accusation).
Al Frankenstein has been accused of forcibly kissing a woman and pretending to grope her while she slept.
I think it’s pretty easy to say “Al Franken may have sexually harassed a woman. Donald Trump bragged on tape about sexually assaulting multiple women. And Roy Moore preyed on teenaged girls.”
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
Holy crap. You’re right. ?
SatanicPanic
@mike in dc: yeah, no. Trump and Roy Moore are worse is no defense.
D58826
Over the years the male defense has been ‘she is making the rape accusation for revenge/money/whatever’ . I think we have gotten past the point where people believe that women make up rape allegations just for the money. We are also getting to the point where the Weinstein type allegations are now believed (pending further evidence to the contrary). My concern is that almost any stupid/juvenile/drunken behavior can now be weaponized against a political opponent. Right now it’s aimed at men but I suspect at some point a smart political operative will be able to make an charge against a woman politician, I saw a twitter comment that the woman in the Franken case is a republican. I have no idea if that is true but bear with me for a second. This kind of charge, esp. in today’s environment, can be easily made with few consequences to the accuser, even if she is lying. Looking at the photo and he has a s*tty grin on his face. he is looking over his shoulder at someone who is taking the photo, it is an airplane full of people and it looks like she is wearing a flack jacket. If she is a GOOPER and Franken is forced to resign, she will probably get a pay raise.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to give a pass to sexual predators but the speed with which this has gone from accusation to string him up would make Tail Gunner Joe McCarty envious.
Amaranthine RBG
@SatanicPanic:
You may recall that the last vote in the Senate re the appeal of Obamacare was quite narrowly decided. Franken voted against that and to preserve Obamacare. A partial repeal of Obamacare is rolled into the current tax bill. And, no doubt, if Franken leaves a full-on repeal will be promptly introduced.
So, yes, it is unfortunate that millions of people will lose healthcare but we, as Democrats and Americans, have to stand by our PRINCIPLES. There’s really no question from that photo that his hands were within inches – INCHES! – of that woman’s breasts. This cannot stand.
BBA
@schrodingers_cat: I’ve been reading this blog for almost a decade and I swear to god I’ve never trolled you under any other name.
Major Major Major Major
@SatanicPanic: Well then maybe we can wait to see if your impression is correct before we make too many decisions.
@Mnemosyne: No he was saying it before that too, yesterday he said something like “as i’ve been saying…” and repeated himself.
SatanicPanic
@dr. luba: This is much better
Miss Bianca
@ruemara:
QFT.
Also,even tho’ I hate to use to use the term “thought exercise”…here it is:
what if it turns out that this, in fact, a smear attempt, based on very little, and actually politically-motivated? And all the right-wing assholes who refuse to condemn actual sex crimes from their own are sitting around laughing their asses off watching us call for the immediate resignation of one of our own most effective Senators? Is it irresponsible to speculate? It would be irresponsible not to.
MarkK
New statement by Franken up and he is calling for an ethics investigation and will cooperate. It’s a damn good statement. Btw, the photographer said it was staged but Franken still apologized again
He ain’t resigning thank gawd!
Villago Delenda Est
@TenguPhule: Me too. This is absolute bullshit. The GOP isn’t even trying to hide the fact that this woman is a Hannity regular. They know their allies in the MSM (which is just about everyone) will scream and yell about Franken and ignore that Moore was pursuing and groping children.
Cole, you’re out in RIGHT FIELD on this one. Put your thinking cap on and get back to at least center field.
foreigner
he did it in front of cameras, tried to be funny in a scene and maybe failed in doing so (i don’t know the sketch as a whole, can’t decide this. it’ possible, that the people laughed, after watching it. we have to wait, maybe someone will find the scene in an archive).
okay, maybe this woman (i don’t know, if she is/was an actor) didn’t like it. but it’s also possible, that she got paid, to come center stage with this right now, because the gop is in trouble in alabama.
but let’s be clear: what al franken did, is not the same, as what roy moore did. walking malls and harassing minor girls is different then a comedian working on a joke with a colleague in front of a camera. franken was aware, that he was getting filmed, doing this (and the woman too).
at last, we should see the good part: roger stone and the gop-dirty-campaign-machine had this material about franken always in their hands, and would have used it, if he became our next candidate for the presidency. now the gop is so very desperate about moore, that roger stone has to come out with this shit now.
my opinion: to resign about a joke, who got wrong, is nuts. if that happens, no actor could ever become a politician again. an actress can always say: “i didn’t like the scene with this guy.” yeah, but the scene was romeo and julia, he shouldn’t have kissed you? … gimme a break.
by the way: i always thought, that bill clinton should have resigned as president, because of the lewinsky-incident. getting a bj from a young woman working for him, that was definitely as bad as what moore did. and you can’t compare it to a failed joke in a tv-sketch.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady: The real question is, does Sen Franken weigh as much as a duck?
kwAwk
I know you’re going to yell at me but I don’t get it.
The woman has a flak jacket on, you can’t see her boobs. He couldn’t touch them if he wanted to. It is a fairly harmless joke. If she was offended a simple apology should be warranted, not destroying the man’s career.
Are we headed back to the Victorian age where women are to be treated as vestal virgins all the time?
SatanicPanic
@Amaranthine RBG: It doesn’t work that way. Republicans need 50+1, Democrats don’t need 48.
Irony Abounds
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Seems to me that the last thing that should be a factor is the impact politically. Either what he did was resign worthy or it wasn’t. Whether it helps anyone politically is just a cynical calculation. The photo shows a crude joke but no physical contact. The forced kiss if true is loutish behavior. Does it demonstrate harassment or assault? Close call. If Ms. Tweeden is the only accuser to come forward I’m inclined to be in the not resign camp. Ms. Tweeden’s obvious political bias shouldn’t negate her story, but it certainly doesn’t help her credibility.
Thoroughly Pizzled
This isn’t the same as the nonsensical bullshit/minutia that usually gets the circular firing squad going. This is a man kissing a woman against her permission and putting his hands on her breasts while she’s sleeping. As soon as a replacement is ready, Franken should go.
Feathers
@PhoenixRising: I think the generational thing is real. I always noticed there was a real difference between people older and younger than me (55). I put it down to the AIDS crisis and going through puberty AFTER knowing that gay people existed. Seriously people, you used to be able to make it to college without knowing what gay sex or rape actually involved.
Now, I’m realizing that it is more the Generation Lead thing, that kids born after leaded gasoline was banned just have a different wiring in some profound way. Not that there aren’t still assholes but there is a real difference overall.
Franken shouldn’t resign. Having a double standard of Dems are dirty, dirty beasts not fit to hold office, while Reps are saints despite any and all evidence to the contrary, must end.
And having worked in video production and event staging, photos like that were (are?) part of the whole male bonding thing. Gross, but part of an important lesson and conversation we need to be having.
Bobby Thomson
The senator just posted a real apology and asked for an ethics investigation into his conduct.
Mnemosyne
@schrodingers_cat:
I don’t think he is. Corporate Cash can never keep the mask on for that long, and BBA’s been here for a while.
S/he’s a troll, but a milder one.
Bobby Thomson
@Thoroughly Pizzled: his hands aren’t on her, by the way.
Cacti
@Bobby Thomson:
Good and appropriate. We’ll see what it turns up.
SatanicPanic
@Major Major Major Major: Sure, I have said it might be a one-off, though I doubt it. But either I think that photo is deadly and the best course is to quit.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: Every day under the trump regime just feels like a week.
grubert
Just heard this woman speak on the news, swear to God she’s full of it. Women actually threatened and abused by men don’t sound like this. She’s got a strong, confident voice and is spitting contempt. Sounds more like Bill O’Reilly then like one of his victims.
different-church-lady
@Irony Abounds:
Clearly harassment. Borderline assault.
Mnemosyne
@Feathers:
Yep. Let’s have an actual investigation before calling for his head on a pike, shall we? If there are additional credible accusations, then we’ll be ready for the pike.
BBA
@Mnemosyne: “Milder troll” is the nicest thing anyone’s ever called me!
burnspbesq
@Chip Daniels:
We’re teetering on the edge of losing our democracy forever. Moral purity is a luxury good.
mike in dc
@SatanicPanic: Roy Moore and Donald Trump are FAR worse. I do not recollect apologies from either of those two. And we’re talking about a single incident in the case of Franken, at this point.
different-church-lady
Forming opinions moment-to-moment is a fool’s errand.
TenguPhule
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Er no.
We have a staged photo where he is NOT actually touching her and her word. And she’s a Fox regular.
Which means her word is worthless.
mai naem mobile
Unless there’s a line of women coming up Franken should stay in place. I didn’t know the FOX angle till now. Interesting that they had to find am ex comedian Dem Senator and not one of the others where it couldn’t be easily ceeated.
Amaranthine RBG
@SatanicPanic:
You’re absolutely correct. It was kind of nice having Franken in the Senate. His polite yet relentless questioning of Sessions has probably put Sessions on the hook for perjury, but what’s right is right. Franken should immediately resign. And check himself in to a treatment center.
sharl
@dr. luba: Thanks for posting that; beat me to it. A MUCH better response from Sen. Franken!
grubert
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
No. This is a *story* about all that, and a stupid photo that shows none of that.
Whether it really happened is not verified.
George Spiggott
I for one look forward to our Greedy Old Pedophile overlords.
bupalos
I really think the folks whose instinct is to fight for Franken are falling into a trap here. In coming weeks and months we’re going to probably have a flood of these, and I pretty strongly feel like it’s going to run like 3/1 R/D on these incidents, because while all men have the pig gene, the Republican culture is to actively promote gender discrimination. I have no doubt this opening salvo is a setup in some senses, I think Tweeden is practically an R operative. But I think to the extent that there is a tactical political purpose in it coming out now, it’s probably intended to draw the exact defensive reaction we’re looking at. I think it’s an attempt to disarm in this particular weapons class because the R’s are particularly vulnerable.
I think strategically and ethically, calling the bluff is very emphatically the way to go here.
TenguPhule
@Villago Delenda Est:
It feels like 2002-2003 all over again. I’d almost forgotten what it felt like to give Cole a good swift boot to the ass for being a complete idiot.
SatanicPanic
@mike in dc: Well it’s settled then, as long as no one on our side isn’t worse than Donald Trump or Roy Moore then they’re in the clear!
D58826
@Miss Bianca: EVERY ENTERTAINER YOU LIKE HAS DONE SHIT LIKE THIS. Trump didn’t exist in a vacuum. Powerful people take advantage.
Cheryl Rofer
@dr. luba: Good statement by Franken. HE ACTUALLY APOLOGIZES AND SAYS HIS BEHAVIOR WAS UNACCEPTABLE.
We need to demand that from Donald Trump and Roy Moore. And throw in Clarence Thomas, too. Make as much noise as the rightwing noise machine.
Major Major Major Major
@BBA: You must lead a very sad life.
@Feathers:
Given how many people asked me how gay sex works in college I can confidently say that you can still do so.
different-church-lady
Next steps: there’s a false accusation, it’s proved to be false, everyone uses that one instance to cast doubts on all accusations, and the wheels on the bus go ’round and ’round…
Kay
Me too! Oh, well. There are other fish in the sea. He really woulda been perfect though.
Spider-Dan
@Thoroughly Pizzled: We have a system of determining whether or not Franken can win re-election: the MN Senate primary.
grubert
@Miss Bianca:
That is exactly what is going on.
Amir Khalid
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
As you can see from his shadow in that photo, Franken is some distance away. He isn’t putting his hands on anything but empty air.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
I’m beginning to think that from here on out, we should only elect women to office until we get a generation of men we can be sure have grown up knowing not to do this shit. And, yeah, that might be unfair to a whole slew of men who have never done any of this and never would, they’ll just have to suck it up and deal with it. These are my feelings at least.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
How many of the people calling for Franken’s head right now are among those who remind us at every mass fatality that the initial reports are rarely accurate?
Slow down, people. As a news story, this is no different.
24 hours before we burn him. OK?
smintheus
@Irony Abounds:
I knew nothing about her initially, but from the nature of her statements in the news report I easily deduced she is almost certainly a right-winger, and I guessed that this was probably meant as a politically motivated hit piece to distract from Republicans’ many scandals. No surprise at all that she’s a Fox News nutter.
The nature of her allegation means it’s basically impossible to negate it, so no, her credibility problems don’t negate her claims about sexual harassment. But I’m always extra cautious about believing sources that are known to have strong biases.
different-church-lady
The takeaway: don’t grope people on the other team.
bemused
@Miss Bianca:
Damn straight they are snickering. Dems will fall for this every time and they know it. This Franken story seems at least a bit hinky to me but we just don’t know yet. People here seem to heed the warnings when there is a mass murder to take initial media reporting with a wait and see what the facts are attitude. This applies here too.
Just expect more stories like this about Dems.
gene108
@MJS:
It doesn’t work like that. Republicans DO NOT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT FAIRNESS. They only care about winning. They are sharks.
And backing down is like cutting yourself, bleeding in the water, and expecting the shark not to bite you.
Republicans, and their voters, are 100% O.K. with double standards for people they like.
There’s no benefit in playing fair, because the other side will use that instinct for fairness against you.
If you don’t believe me, see Obama’s first term in office, where he and Congressional Democrats tried and tried to be reasonable and Republicans took advantage.
BlueDWarrior
I think what we are coming up on now is a watershed moment where the culture is starting to unilaterally not accept doing certain kinds of things to women (that you think we would have learned not to do but apparently that message hasn’t gotten around for the last 40 years).
But what this is going to mean is that people we will turn out to be dogs, a LOT of them. And you will have to establish standards for what you will and won’t accept, especially out of people north of 50. And those standards won’t be common, so this will be a point of argument for the next however long.
I don’t think Franken should resign unless we start getting a chain of complaints and accusations, but just be forewarned, a LOT of men you like, and some women, will have some real dirty skeletons in their closet, and the they’re about to start getting exposed.
[ Remember, JFK was all but canonized as a Saint in popular culture until recently ]
mike in dc
@SatanicPanic: It would be nice if you addressed the actual argument I made, rather than the one you wish I made. At this point, Franken faces a single allegation of a less serious nature than the most serious allegations against Moore and Trump. The credibility of the allegation is somewhat in question. His response to the allegation is pretty good as these things go, and he himself supports an Ethics investigation. Compare and contrast with Trump, Moore and others. He is entitled to due process, in my opinion. Let the committee investigate this allegation and see if any other allegations exist. If misconduct is found while he was a sitting Senator, I fully expect he will do the right thing and resign.
D58826
@smintheus: And remember the Moore accusers all went out of their way to say they were Trump voters.
And remember o’keefe and Acorn and NPR and planned parenthood. And the Dept. of Ag official and the pig farm settlement. By the time the facts had been established a lot of innocent people had been destroyed and the perpetrators of the lies rewarded.
Cacti
@smintheus:
If Al Franken does turn out to be a serial groper, her story will eventually be corroborated by someone or multiple people without an obvious political agenda.
That’s what happened with Moore.
Major Major Major Major
@BBA:
Is this sarcasm?
Darkrose
@SatanicPanic: There isn’t a single person in this conversation who’s said that what Franken did is A-OK. There is, in fact, a distinction between assaulting and threatening multiple young women (some underaged), bragging about assaulting multiple women, and posing for a creepy, gross photo and possibly assaulting a woman and apologizing unreservedly.
TenguPhule
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
I’m beginning to think the Handmaid meme “But her emails” needs to be retitled “But his tasteless photo!”
Thoroughly Pizzled
I think it’s possible, though unlikely, that it was an isolated incident. However, given that Al has apologized for it, it doesn’t appear to be made up, unless he himself is part of the conspiracy to destroy him.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Yes.
mr_gravity
Some righteous indignation here. I’ve always been pretty forgiving of others bad behavior. By the standard I’m seeing in these comments there are a few people right now who could ruin my life based on my previous bad behavior. There are also number of lives I could ruin if I chose to climb on to that very high horse.
So what is the standard? Jimmy Carter “lusted after women in his heart”. Should he be doing hard time instead building houses for the homeless?
“All have sinned….Innocent till proven….let he who is perfect….
The powerful and the strong have been abusing the weak and the poor since forever and will likely continue to do so until we evolve or go extinct. Hopefully we learn and evolve.
bemused
@Kay:
If it was a rightwing smear job on Franken, they will do it to every Dem that is dangerous to them.
Percysowner
So, I’m 64. 45 years ago, as a student working in a law library, one of the attorneys asked me for help in the aisles and promptly and without warning kissed me. I told him I wasn’t interested and that was that, so I’m speaking from relevant experience. The attorney came in until he died, like 20 years later, and other than the one incident was one of my favorite patron. I put the kiss down to somewhat skeezy and going out of him mind for a minute. He never made me feel uncomfortable again.
If we suddenly get numerous complaints about Al Franken, then maybe we should talk about having him resign. But with what I’ve heard here, his behavior doesn’t warrant resignation, IMO. I hope he works on a better apology and if the ethics committee takes a look, I’d accept it, although only if they look at any other Republican Senator who has similar accusations made against them.
Apparently Al Franken agrees with me. He has asked for an ethics committee evaluation ON HIMSELF per Talking Points Memo
.
I’m not happy that the accusation has come up. I also don’t see one instance as being one that should lose him his job.
TenguPhule
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
Or he doesn’t remember the event in question, as he said.
Apologizing costs him nothing.
smintheus
@D58826: Which for me was pretty disturbing. Why would women who were assaulted or harassed by a politician vote to elect a president who bragged about assaulting and harassing women?
Amir Khalid
@bupalos:
I really think the folks whose instinct is to abandon Franken are falling into a trap here: doing exactly what would most help the other party.
John
Stupid choice to make the decisions that led to that photo and if Franken did assault Tweeden he should resign. Also,I am VERY aware that every benefit of the doubt should be given to the accuser in situations such as these.
HOWEVER
He is obviously not touching her in the photo (shadow between his hands and her chest). Now it’s possible that he did so immediately before or after this photo.
He has outright refuted her claim about the alleged kiss.
There have been no other allegations of this type against Franken. In fact, Franken has been a champion of women’s rights during his time in the Senate.
Tweeden is a longtime vocal conservative who has been a contributor to Sean Hannity’s show and a panelist on Greg Gutfeld’s show.
Given the timing of the accusation, I would cast a wary eye on believing anything until more proof than this photo arrives. For example, I’d like to hear from the guy who took the photo. Curious why this photographer would snap the photo and not wake her up. Why did she only find out about it when she got home and was leafing through the official photo book? There was no power dynamic between Tweeden and Franken at the time, so why would she refrain from coming forward or contacting the authorities prior to now?
Again, If Franken assaulted anyone, he should resign. But this feels a lot more like something that someone kept in their back pocket in case the need ever arose to deflect attention from another scandal.
I am not defending anyone who has committed sexual harassment or sexual assault. I applaud and fully support the current movement to identify and address this problem that has afflicted America for far too long. But there is a long history of people using reform movements to settle personal, professional and political vendettas.
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
This is true. So maybe we should wait for at least one more accusation, yes?
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
The photo is incontrovertible even if it was staged as a joke, so that required an apology no matter what.
BlueDWarrior
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: To me, this is an actual instructional case in the old phrase “Where do you draw the line?”
Because, it’s going to turn out, a LOT of people you like will have done some shit in the past that you abhor, especially if they come from a ‘previous generation’. So the question is, where do you draw the line between behavior that is abhorrent but ultimately still able to be dealt with, and when it becomes so much a deteriment (or a legal issue) that you have to cut bait with that person.
And the problem is, that line is different for a lot of people, as evidenced by this thread. And I don’t doubt that a lot of male Democratic Senators will have done things that would be considered not-up-to-snuff; so the question is at what point do you say cut bait on them, or let it go with a warning and admonishment? Because we aren’t going to force every male who done something ‘wrong’ to resign (mostly because of the scale and not agreeing to how much wrong someone can do before being needed to be forced to quit).
So where exactly is the actual line for behavior in the real world?
SatanicPanic
@mike in dc: You keep comparing him to Moore and Trump and I am saying that I don’t think there is any reason to do that. I would be saying the same thing even if Trump and Moore had never existed. I’m not going to leap to suggesting this woman is a liar, especially with that photo. That photo alone is going to kill him going forward, and going to be brought up every time we make an accusation towards Republicans. Unless there is video showing her saying “OK Al, I’ll pretend to go to sleep and you pretend to grope me and be sure to look right in the camera and smile because it won’t be funny otherwise” there is no way it’s a good look. The best thing for everyone involved is for him to retire and enjoy his millions.
bemused
@Amir Khalid:
Yup.
SC54HI
Franken has called for investigation of himself.
trollhattan
@dr. luba:
On point. We shall see how this plays out but the R’s puke funnel is fully charged and will be spewing forth set to “11” for the next week, at least. I vote for not letting them dictate how this is handled and see what the party of adults comes up with.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@different-church-lady:
I’d go farther: Don’t grope anybody unless you get consent.
Really, this shouldn’t be so hard. Nobody should ever grope anybody unless the one being groped is on board with it. No unwanted groping. No “kidding” about groping. I don’t care who you are or who’s getting groped or whether you thought it was a joke. Keep your fucking hands to yourself. I really don’t think this is excessively Victorian.
reader at work just now not at usual nym
No no no no and no.
What
@rikyrah and @satby, plus – IIUC he gave her the picture.
If more people show up, that shows a pattern of behavior.
This alone?
Someone thinking, “oh my fellow performer will think this is FUNNEEE” will share the photo.
Someone like Trump will NOT share the photo with the woman but will save it to show the Billy Bushes in his life.
Offensive, sure, but unless much more comes out, resign??????? Whaaa???
smintheus
@Cacti: Exactly. I set aside claims made by highly biased sources unless there are independent, credible sources confirming the claim. I’m perfectly willing to be convinced that Franken has abused women and that he’s done things for which he should resign. I just don’t think there’s any point to rush to judgment because of Tweeden’s possibly self-serving claims.
Miss Bianca
@bupalos: And I think you’re full of shit.
But please, let’s slip and fall on the panic button, jump to conclusions, and call for the resignation of one of our most effective Democratic senators on the word of one woman, who just happens to work for Fox News, because WE HAVE TO MAKE A STATEMENT, dammit. Never mind that the “statement” is “Democrats are fucking morons who are so easily led they shouldn’t even be entrusted with the keys to their own cars, let alone the keys to the mint”. Never mind the tax cut for billionaires, never mind GOP/Russian collusion, never mind the ACA outrages, there’s a HIGHER PRINCIPLE at stake, and that higher principle is, “let’s cut our own throats before our opponents can, because it would be rude to make them do such messy, dirty work on their own.”
SatanicPanic
@Darkrose: Moore, Trump and Franken (if these allegations are true) all did things that meet my bar for resignation. Moore and Trump are obviously worse.
Cckids
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: @msdc: Not excusing the asininity of the photo; but Franken’s accuser starts with a visible lie- that he groped her (his hands aren’t on her), as well as a factual lie- that she showed her spouse the pic though she hadn’t met him yet. Add in her Tea party/Fox connections and yes, I want more info before jettisoning Franken. I’m not a hard NO yet, but Dems need to stop jumping the gun. See the “Dean Scream”, etc.
Wapiti
@satby: Not only are his hands not touching her,
1) she’s wearing body armor – good luck groping through that,
2) She got a copy of the picture, it’s not like it was some secret, but a bunch of comics messing with each other.
In my mind, let him apologize. Let the GOP make the case to his voters, just like the case is being made to Moore’s voters.
But frankly, no unilateral disarmanent. No resigning on penny-ante stuff like this.If McConnell could push to not let Franken be seated. (If his accuser is a GOP partisan, that matters.)
mike in dc
@SatanicPanic: As I understand it the photographer has stated it was a staged photo. A bright line rule shouldn’t depend upon “optics”, and d there should be some kind of due process with regard to elected officials, because you are effectively undoing not just a career but the decision of thousands of voters.
BlueDWarrior
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): It shouldn’t be so hard; but you also know what power does to the psyche. You can make some people do some things they’d never think about doing once you tell them they have power and authority over someone.
It’s one of those nasty things about human nature and it’s not going away, we just have to find better ways to self-mitigate and deal with it if it becomes too much of a problem.
different-church-lady
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): You’re really ruining my comedy relief here…
TenguPhule
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Its the groping that’s in dispute here.
Again, credibility issue here. He has it, she doesn’t.
Major Major Major Major
It does seem a little suspicious now that you’re saying she’s a regular Hannity commentator. And we do know that people will be slinging some (a small minority!) of false allegations for political reasons.
“He assaulted me! I even have a photo of him not doing it as proof!”
Franken’s apology reads as legit to me. Calling for his resignation right now is stupid and premature.
mr_gravity
For crying out loud, the first time I went out with a girl (I was fourteen she was thirteen) she stuck her tongue in my mouth while her father (a very large man) watched from across the room. I was pretty sure he was going to end my life that night. I had never as much as held hands with a girl before and as scared as I was it still felt pretty awesome.
Should I have gotten a lawyer?
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady: Moore’s Law?
Irony Abounds
It’s been mentioned in a couple of places that the photographer has stated the photo was staged and Ms. Tweeden was in on the joke. I haven’t been able to confirm that, but if true, her credibility is shattered and you have to doubt her account regarding the kiss. Perhaps that is why Franken is calling for the ethics investigation.
Rex
If there’s another shoe to drop, it will probably be Victoria Jackson claiming a pattern of behavior from Franken during the SNL days.
Davey C
Until there are actual consistent, real-world consequences for sexual harassment, how do we make it so socially unacceptable that people fear to engage in it? IMO, he should absolutely resign and be replaced with a Democrat who doesn’t sexually harass people.
SatanicPanic
@mike in dc: I said upthread that I couldn’t find evidence beyond an unsourced Democratic Underground post, which should really be taken with a grain of salt. If someone has a better link I will look at it. MarKK has so far ignored my request.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
So no investigation? Just resign and leave the Democrats twisting in the wind in the middle of a treason investigation?
Note that the balance of the Senate is currently in danger of tilting to the Democrats. And Minnesota is a purple state where Franken barely won the first time around. It sure would be great for the Republicans if they could pressure Franken into resigning on flimsy charges and then get a Republican elected to his seat.
And, hey, looky here. Franken is up for re-election in 2020. What a co-inkydink!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
will this be the fastest Tbogg in BJ history?
Amir Khalid
@Kay:
I was not aware that Franken was thinking of running in 2020. I haven’t heard of him giving any sign of Presidential ambitions.
PJ
@SatanicPanic: Republicans will use anything, true or false, to defend themselves and to attack others. Currently they are using Bill Clinton, who hasn’t been in office for 17 years, to defend Roy Moore and to attack the Democratic Party. Franken resigning won’t stop Republicans from using this photo if they think it helps them, but it will give a big boost to their efforts to give the wealthy a massive tax cut, get rid of Obamacare, screw the poor and middle class, and bury the investigation into Trump. That’s what you are advocating.
SFAW
@BlueDWarrior:
“Recently” being defined as 30-plus years ago? Because that’s at least how long it’s been since people started talking about his (what used to be called) “hanky-panky.”
Timurid
@SC54HI:
How does that work for things he allegedly did before holding any public office?
Ruckus
Haven’t read the thread but I’ll throw in my 2 cents.
We want credibility. So we need to expect reasonable behavior from our side. This doesn’t sound like that. Conservatives only want one thing, power. Racial power, monetary power, sexual power…..
They don’t give a shit about the conduct of their politicians, preachers……..
Mark Adams
Motives Matter!
Not the first or last time the comedian’s stick bombed, but he was most likely trying to get laughs, not get laid.
BlueDWarrior
@Major Major Major Major: That’s part of the problem I’m having with this story. And it does speak to the screwed up dynamics of the two parties in this context. I mean we are perfectly willing as a base to put our money where our mouth is and demand the censure, if not resignation, of someone on our side who has done wrong. But with them, if they can at all provide any of the various things their base desires, then they circle the wagons and demean and defame all accusers until the accusers quit.
It shouldn’t be this way: Moore should be at no more than 20% in the polls in Alabama because not only did he do something even more egregious than what Franken is accused of, it happened over a longer period of time to younger women and a whole lot more of them (though this part of the story is still outstanding). And yet Alabama Republicans will likely circle the wagons around Moore if for no other reason than to defy those damn city liberals a ‘win’.
It remains to be seen what Minnesota Democrats will do with Franken when he comes up again, barring some rash of accusations that forces him out before then; but I find it strange that we are so willing to police our own, and yet they will jump in the mud pit with their dirty pigs.
[ Btw, remember John Edwards, and how that story blew up, hoo boy talk about dodging a bullet ]
TenguPhule
Was it only yesterday that we had a Repubs in Disarray Post?
Why yes, yes it was.
/Headdesk
Amaranthine RBG
We must remember that this victim:
https://www.google.com/search?q=leeann+tweeden&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS746US746&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjD39Sl28PXAhVirVQKHeHiBsYQ_AUICigB&biw=1920&bih=975
is someone’s daughter, maybe even someone’s wife or mother.
As she so eloquently wrote, she has suffered for a decade: “I had locked up those memories of helplessness and violation for a long time, but they all came rushing back to me and my hands clinched into fists like it was yesterday.”
It’s time for Franken to resign so that Ms. Tweeden can find peace and be the best model and sports commenter she can be.
different-church-lady
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’ll be the first one that doesn’t mention Greenwald or Snowden.
Oops…
Darkrose
@SatanicPanic: And I agree with the second and disagree with the first. Given that the incidents are not equivalent, I see no need to treat them as though they are. Especially since, as has been noted, Franken has issued a full apology and asked for a Senate ethics committee investigation. Certainly if that turns up additional instances, he needs to go, but absent that, I think resignation is not the right call.
Jeremy
I said last week that I was leery of this notion of believing EVERY accusation of sexual harassment without question because the Right was going to abuse it; and that is precisely what is happening this morning with Senator Al Franken.There is a picture of a joke, but he is NOT touching her. No, I don’t immediately believe this ex-model-turned right-wing commentator’s account of what occurred the day before. I tend not to trust someone that takes a check from fucking Fox News. But now, because we’ve said over and over “believe woman”, many on the left are actually calling on Senator Franken (one of the best Democrats in the senate) to fucking resign (already!) because they’ve boxed themselves in with this evangelical view of #believewomen.
BlueDWarrior
@SFAW: I would say since the 90s, because it did happen over 50 years ago now. He was treated as a saint until around the 90s and the ‘coarsening of the political culture’, now everyone pretty much knows he was a hounddog to some extent.
Which is why I say, just be on the ready for more of this stuff to drop about every man in power, it’s a real nasty cultural infection and it’s going to turn out a lot of men are carriers, if not actively exhibiting symptoms.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
And here’s something else: Everybody who’s saying, “Yeah, well, Republicans are going to use this and other cases to point to Democrats and call for resignations, even though they stand behind their own perverts.”? Yeah, you’re right. You’re dead on. That’s just what’s going to happen. They’re going to do that because that’s the kind of people they are and that’s the kind of thing they do. But we know that. We already know that.
You can ask if this is fair. It isn’t. You can ask if this is the way it should be. Well, it isn’t. But this is how it is. We can’t help what they do. We can’t help what kind of people they are. All we can help is what we are and what kind of people we are.
I know I’m going to get a lot of shit from this, but I don’t care, I’m going to say it: This makes me think of Republicans who whine that it’s so unfair that we can’t torture terrorists even just a little bit, because terrorists cut people’s heads off and shit like that. There’s a difference in degree here, but this is the same kind of argument. “Why do they get to fight that way and we don’t?” is the argument. Well, the answer to that is that we are better than they are.
We are better than they are. Not because it helps us. It doesn’t. But because it’s the right thing to do, and we don’t want to be like them. Everybody, all of us, we have to make our minds up where we stand on this. I’ve made up my mind. I don’t care if it puts us at a disadvantage. I’m going to do everything I can to see that we are better than they are. I don’t want to live any other way.
@different-church-lady: Sorry ’bout that.
TenguPhule
@Ruckus: The accuser is a Fox regular on Sean Hannity.
Again, GIANT FUCKING GRAIN OF SALT.
D58826
@Mnemosyne:
And he has apologized.
Butit seems to me that there is a much bigger issue here. This photo was taken before the smart phone era. With every tom dick and Henrietta having a smart phone and recording just about everything it is inevitable that embarrassing images will be recorded. The stupid frat house prank, the slightly to long kiss when playing post office at a neighborhood party, and the list could go on. Even with the over/under age 50 and the changing attitudes toward reporting sexual assault I’m sure every one has a skeleton or two in the closet that if displayed on the internet with the proper framing would be extremely embarrassing.
I can think of two high profile stories in recent years where the initial reports were totally and horribly wrong – the duke rape casae and the rape story out of Univ. of Va.
bupalos
@Amir Khalid: I don’t get why Franken is supposedly so valuable to us that we accept the risk that he’s got more of this stuff waiting to come out and want to politically disarm on the sexual harassment issue going forward. That’s what this will amount to, every incident that comes out will be compared and related to Franken. Personally, I’m a lot better with where a zero-tolerance stance has us standing in 2 months than litigating how much assault is really assault. I think there are about 150 republican politicians right now praying that Franken gets excused and we hear a lot about the partisan set-up etc.
stinger
@Nicole: Whether he actually says this or not, it reflects my position at the moment, so, thanks! I’m more than 20 years older than some who have just posted their ages here, so I’ve been waiting more than 20 years longer than they to get affordable health insurance. I’d prefer to keep a vocal, liberal politician in office, when the Senate party split is so close. Wouldn’t be the first time I’ve held my nose and voted for someone I wouldn’t like in my personal life but who can represent me well on policies.
SFAW
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It depends. Has anyone called for Franken’s summary (and very public) execution for his sins? That would probably get us there faster. [I confess that I have not read all the existing comments, so that call may already have been made.]
I think a public execution would send a clear message that we Dems do not tolerate certain behaviors in our own ranks, and the Rethugs should follow suit.
ETA: And just to make my comment even MORE annoying: BOTH SIDES!!!
different-church-lady
@TenguPhule:
No. It was this morning.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady: Or Bernie.
Oops.
trnc
@Rex:
She didn’t say when she showed her husband the picture, so that could have been recent. However, someone claims to have been Franken’s chaperone and that he was with him the whole time. I think there’s an effort to track down the photographer, too.
If the kiss happened like she said, he should probably be gone. If the chaperone is credible and it’s down to that picture, then it’s basically just a stupid joke. I doubt he said, “Hey, Joe, get a picture of me assaulting this woman.”
different-church-lady
@SFAW:
Sort of.
germy
Franken has called for an investigation of himself.
sharl
Franken’s latest statement acknowledges the photo and apologizes for it. His statement about the alleged forced kiss during rehearsal does NOT acknowledge that actually happened. He didn’t deny it either, but rather said he just doesn’t recall anything happening like Leeann Tweeden claimed.
So questions regarding that specific (non)incident, questions about whether other incidents happened – especially if there was a pattern – and probably broader questions about Franken’s history of drug/alcohol use are likely in his future. The fact he’s staying put, has called for an investigation himself, and will face all this forthrightly is something I find encouraging. The guy who has written and talked about right wing media so much certainly knows what is headed his way, and I find some reassurance in the fact that he is one of the best-equipped people in politics to handle something like this. (Of course I’m presuming innocence at this point – beyond the stupid photo – so things are subject to change with new, verified information.)
I am feeling bad for all the folks from that long-forgotten USO show who have moved on with their lives. They’re about to get a big bright spotlight shone on them, which certainly won’t be welcome. I hope they’re all honest about what they remember (or don’t), and won’t themselves be assaulted by media too much.
smintheus
The more I think about it, the stranger Tweeden’s professed outrage seems to be about what was obviously in the photo pretend rather than actual groping.
When I was about 11, I was viciously assaulted by drunken man. He tried and nearly succeeded in strangling me. It was traumatic, made worse by the lousy response of the local PD. There was another supreme weirdo in college who provoked a fight by choking me very violently.
In the years since I’ve experienced a few acquaintances or friends jokingly pretend to throttle me, and I think I have a photo of one guy hamming it up that way. It never would have occurred to me to treat that as insensitive or threatening, much less an actual assault.
Why is Tweeden pretending that the photo shows Franken groping her?
Mnemosyne
@bupalos:
Here’s a thought: Franken has just asked for the Senate Ethics Committee to investigate this charge. Maybe we could wait and see how that goes before demanding his resignation?
TenguPhule
@bupalos: The case against Franken is sketchy, That’s why.
If you want to throw one of our better Senators to the dogs at the first whiff of trouble without any fucking good cause, you’re not going to find any candidates willing to run.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady: I blame the Trump Time Warp.
PJ
@Amaranthine RBG: It’s screwed up that you are arguing that because she’s a model, she can’t be traumatized by alleged sexual harassment/abuse. Her career choice, no more than her past sexual activity, has no bearing on her credibility or on what actually happened. (Her political views might, but that’s another story.)
D58826
@TenguPhule: No not grain of salt. Faux has been pushing e-mail/Benghazi/Uranium one for years in spite of the investigations that have debunked the charges. And lets not forgot Obama’s birth certificate. Hannity is still pushing the story that a DNC staffer was the leaker of the documents and was murdered by the Clinton campaign. There are still those who push Hillary murdered Vince Foster. So the platform as well as the source may well be relevant to determining whither the charge is to be believed.
Major Major Major Major
@bupalos:
By my standard we haven’t even established he’s had one thing come out, other than a staged photo of a non-groping.
Tim C.
@bupalos: Yup.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amaranthine RBG: I hope this is a joke.
I’m fairly certain it is not.
Which is par for the course for you.
The Lodger
@MisterForkbeard: Co-sign everything you said. I’m ashamed of Al but we’d be stupid to engage in unilateral disarmament over this when the other side is sexually assaulting minors and lying about it.
SFAW
@bupalos:
I got news for you, even if this was the only incident, that’s what will happen. We heard about the Bush/Hitler “ad” for four or five years after it became a thing, and it wasn’t even real. Hillary had to deal with more zombie lies than one would think exist, and the actual stuff (as opposed to lies) got brought up well past their shelf-lives.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@TenguPhule:
I have a hard time believing there’s such a lack of good Democratic candidates who haven’t groped or assaulted or harassed women.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@ I would not be giving someone in a different profession the same leeway. But I really, truly consider the vast majority of comedy to be professional childishness, so I think the stupid photo is a professional hazard.
That’s what I was thinking, comedy and Franklin blew it. If this was a picture of Franklin in his senate office it would be much different Also, people just do stupid things time to time like voting twice for GW Bush, which I wil note the man who is leading the charge here did. I am interested to see is this a pattern and does this happen back stage when Franklin is out of character.
On the other hand that picture would make an awesome cover picture for “Giant of the Senate”
I meet Ellison in passing at con, like we were in the same room together, just saw him talking to a group of people and I was filled with an urge to beat his head in. They write fan fiction about murdering him. The man is vile. So he’s masher as well a punk?
Mnemosyne
@PJ:
Yes — her credibility is in question because of her current job as a Hannity commentator, not her former job as a model/actress.
germy
Roger Stone has a crystal ball.
different-church-lady
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Close your tag, please and thank you.
Emma
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Wonderful. Now head out and tell the mother of a very sick child who just got dropped off her health insurance that her child will die for your principles.
We are at war here, people. Our opponents have the morals of alligators and the ethics of tarantulas. We cannot afford to disarm unilaterally, dammit. IF the ethics investigation proves him to have been a child molester, a rapist, or even a serial groper, then it’s the time to deal with it. Not F_UCKING now!
Mnemosyne
@germy:
Funny how that works, innit? ?
geg6
@Scotian:
I agree with you completely. And as a rape survivor and a person who has been sexually assaulted/harasses numerous times in my 59 years, I also know whereof I speak. A not-very-funny picture that is not really any sort of assault and, perhaps, a kiss that shouldn’t have been kissed is not going to get me very upset. I’m disappointed, but not upset. As it stands, it seems that Senator Franken has requested an ethics probe of himself where the truth can be fully explored.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/franken-asks-for-ethics-investigation-of-himself-sexual-misconduct-allegations
BlueDWarrior
@SFAW: Yeah, trying to preemptively enforce moral standards on our side has no bearing on what the other side does with their propaganda.
What we should do with Franken is see if any more accusations come out, check the veracity of those accusations, and then discuss within ourselves, especially if some of us are residents of Minnesota, about what to do then.
If this is all that it is, I can’t see us absolutely needing to get rid of him unless Franken himself believes that this alone is enough to zero out his potential effectiveness as a Senator. But the fact that he’s speaking in terms of “Go ahead, let the Ethics Committee investigate me” instead of going immediately to full denial or resignation off the bat says that this may actually be an isolated incident.
But we shall see, won’t we?
ruemara
If you think I’m wiling to disarm before my enemies, you’ve got another think coming. Amazing how dems are supposed to believe and burn their own but the GOP will literally ruin themselves miserably to protect their most repellent wingnut. This was a comedy bit where he behaved terribly, not him molesting and harassing her. The picture was staged. He’s not touching her. If there’s more women, they’ll come out, but reputation wise, he’s got one of the better ones in this industry. We’ll see during the investigation. Call to resign when you have the facts, not before. I swear the left is easily manipulated, you just have to find the right thing. Your last pure politician was Obama. He was also the first. Grow up.
Major Major Major Major
@SFAW: Remember “General Betray-us”?
Mnemosyne
@Emma:
This. Let’s have an investigation. Let’s have the accuser testify under oath. It will be a Republican-dominated investigation, and if Al thinks he can withstand it, let’s do it. If he can’t, then he resigns.
jk
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
I’d love to see more people get behind this position. To me, it’s a very clear cut situation.
SatanicPanic
@PJ: How will it give them a boost? I’ve been asking this and I don’t see it. They aren’t counting on his vote, and Democrats don’t need his vote to block anything. He’ll be replaced with a Democrat anyway.
@Mnemosyne: I’m skeptical that Franken isn’t going to be worse than a generic D going forward. That photo is going to be featured a lot when he’s up for reelection.
Amaranthine RBG
@PJ:
You’re absolutely right there’s really no substantive difference between a 14 year old school girl in Alabama being groped and an woman who has earned a living exposing her breasts and genitals having someone place his hands within mere INCHES of her breasts. Both are horrific violations and Franken must resign.
mai naem mobile
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): the we are better than them is the reason we are where we are at – no fucking power. They have puss grabber as POTUS who appointed Gorsuch to a stolen seat. Makes me feel awesome because we are better than them.
Mnemosyne
@ruemara:
See also, the election of 2016. ?
different-church-lady
GOP: “Ethics investigation now!”
FRANKEN: “Okay. Good idea.”
GOP: “Oh. Wait, what’s the fun in that?”
SatanicPanic
@jk: Yes, this.
Miss Bianca
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Oh, goodie. It really warms the cockles of my liver to hear that you’re such a principled guy. I just thank whatever gods there are that you’re not in a position to actually fuck up my life with your principled stands, unlike Al Franken – which his resignation for your principles would stand a better-than-good chance of doing.
bupalos
@Mnemosyne: I’m not that sure how an ongoing senate ethics committee investigation comes out or how much damage it does while it goes on. I’ll agree it’s more “fair’ to Franken, but Al Franken simply isn’t going to be my priority here. His second statement does have a lot of good in it. And I’m not “demanding” anything, I just think it’s the best thing for our team, and for working more directly towards gender equality and respect.
Davey C
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Agreed.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
Let the people of Minnesota decide. I’m sure it will be used, but he has another year to explain it to his constitutents’ satisfaction.
ETA: Or to not run for re-election if he thinks it will hurt him too much.
different-church-lady
@SatanicPanic:
It might get him a lot of crossover vote.
(Am I taking the act too far here?)
germy
@Mnemosyne:
I confess I know nothing about her. Never heard of her until now. So out of curiosity I checked her twitter page, or whatever you call it, to see if she gets into politics.
Not much, but I noticed she had two recent tweets where she linked to her instagram photos. One was “Here I am modeling at the age of 17” and another one where she says “Here I am at 14, sneaking into a concert”
Now maybe I’m overthinking this, but the impression I got was she was sort of implying Moore’s victims weren’t all that young.
Of course, I could be reading too much into this.
BlueDWarrior
@Mnemosyne: It’s like we are so desperate to prove our own moral superiority that we will quite literally slit our own throats to do it.
It’s really goddamn strange and just makes me believe that there is an inkling to truth to the whole right-wing meme about “virtue signaling” when it comes to some of our more agitated members.
mike in dc
Tweeden has accepted his apology. There will be an investigation. Let that play out and move on to more pressing things.
schrodingers_cat
@bupalos: IIRC weren’t you telling us to make friends with T voters and understand them? Your advice is suspect now as it was then.
PJ
@SatanicPanic: Jeff Sessions would be very happy to see Franken resign. If the Minnesota voters are dissatisfied with Franken’s behavior or performance, as you point out, they can just vote him out in 2020.
Amir Khalid
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Franklin?
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: The left has this thing where they turn good instincts (no corporate funding! believe all accusers!) into absolutism and shibboleths which are easily twisted by outsiders to harm them (all corporate funding is evil and so is hillary! treat all accusations as true immediately, by your own argument franken must resign!).
@BlueDWarrior:
Is that a right-wing meme? Me and my fellow gentrifying bougie liberal scum here in SF talk about it all the time.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
Alright, I like to think my take on this is a little complicated. On one hand, I’m willing to believe this was a one off instance that crossed a line. The fact that the accuser is a Fox News Republican doesn’t help her case. On the other if this were a pattern of bad behavior, degree of scumbagginess compared Moore and Trump or not, he should probably resign if more credible accusers come forward. The governor will appoint a Dem, so we won’t lose numbers wise. Expertise will definitely be lost. If there is no pattern and he can stick it out and not hurt our ability to oppose the GOP by being an effective party, then he should stay as long as he can come up with a better apology that acknowledges the dangers of a culture that encourages men to degrade women.
Cacti
@different-church-lady:
Senator Franken was smart enough to deduce that the R’s wanted him to reflexively go into bunker mode.
Disarming that charge and cooperating with the ethics investigation is the best move he could make. Apologizing for the lewd photo was also appropriate.
All of the above makes him a damned sight better than Moore and Trump, who have apologized for nothing and call all of their accusers liars.
schrodingers_cat
@ruemara: The left that you are talking about are mostly BS supporters or at the very least BS curious, if this blog is representative. You and I are the one going to pay a greater price for their purity, than they are.
ETA: They are also going to pay a price, for some reason, they think they are immune.
BlueDWarrior
@schrodingers_cat: wouldn’t be surprised if some R(atf**ker)s were out among the usual liberal haunts, trying to gin up a grassroots demand for Franken’s immediate resignation sans anything new coming out in terms of accusations of dirt dug up in the coming ethics investigation.
different-church-lady
@mike in dc: DAMMIT, we’re so close to a TBogg here!
germy
@different-church-lady:
That’s funny because it’s true. They do so much projecting, they probably thought an ex-college football jock lawyer for Franken would appear and insist the photo is a bad photoshop, and threaten to bring legal charges against the accuser.
Instead Franken apologizes and says “Yeah, this calls for a full investigation.”
Just One More Canuck
@Mnemosyne: now you’re talking crazy talk
Hoodie
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): I’d say they use this at their own peril. People know the difference between being a boor and being Humbert Humbert. Talking about Franken keeps Moore in focus, and he’s unambiguously a pervert. If Franken has been like Weinstein or Louis C.K., that’d be a different matter. There are plenty of guys who are thinking “I did stupid shit like that in college” when talking about Franken. No one is going to identify with trolling for jailbait or jacking off in public.
Mnemosyne
@bupalos:
I hope and believe that Franken is smart enough to know whether or not his behavior can withstand scrutiny. Maybe he’s like Anthony Weiner and is dumb enough to think he’d never be caught even when investigated, but if that’s the case, then we need to know that.
I am unwilling to have an effective senator resign over a dumb staged photo and a disputed kiss.
TenguPhule
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): If you think anyone is going to run for office when their base abandons them at the first unsubstantiated accusation, name them.
bupalos
@Amaranthine RBG:
You seem to be putting a little too much into this “unclean victim” side of things. I’m pretty uncomfortable with the way many women seem to cultivate being objectivized, but I can also see how systemic misogyny often pretty much dictates that as a life choice for highly attractive women. Introducing the fact that she works in the objectivization industry as a mitigating factor is pretty much equivalent to the way the right wing wants to put “gang thugs” in a different rights class.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I think the word you want is nuanced, not complicated. That’s not complicated at all.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@germy:
You’re well aware of this, but it bares repeating. It doesn’t matter if some teens seem really mature. The law is the law and 14 is far too young for a grown man in his early 30s to be messing around with.
SatanicPanic
@different-church-lady: I am tempted to take this into some questionable joke territory but I don’t want to pull a Franken
BlueDWarrior
@Major Major Major Major: The Money thing REALLY FUCKING GRINDS ME.
That is the biggest way that that the right has disarmed us, they’ve taken advantage of our skepticism about big money in politics and turned it into “You have to purge everyone with financial connections you will never be pure enough”
Goddamnit it takes so much in terms of manpower and resources to run a proper national campaign, and a campaign in a lot of states, that cutting ourselves off from funds without even seeing if the person giving is actually asking for anything unreasonable is just politically asinine.
But sure, we will be pure as the goddamn driven snow as we melt in Republican hellfire.
Just… I can’t even sometimes…
TenguPhule
@germy: Almost as if he knew in advance.
PJ
@different-church-lady: I’m doing my part.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Ellison is a complete ass. Good writer, but a complete ass.
Ellison and Willis at the 2006 Hugo Awards
And Asimov was well known to be a serial groper, and I don’t even want to talk about Marion Zimmer Bradley.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Miss Bianca:
Look, I’m not calling for him to resign. If more like this comes out, then it’ll be time for that. But one thing this Weinstein thing has done is change everything, seemingly overnight. Women are coming out with their stories, and we’re kidding ourselves to think that there aren’t going to be cases as bad as what Trump or Moore did on our own side. And I see people waving away the claims of this woman, and that worries me and it makes me a little sick. We’re going to be dealing with a lot of women coming forward to tell us that this or that Democrat did something awful. I’m going to do something I’ve never done before in my life, which is to approvingly quote Mitch McConnell here: I believe the women.
I believe the women. I just don’t believe there are a lot of women making up stories like this so they can take down some politician. Maybe there might be some. But not a lot. Women just don’t go around lying about sexual assault or harassment for fun or profit, and I’m going to stand up against anybody I think is saying otherwise, whether it’s a Republican or somebody from our own side. I believe the women.
Major Major Major Major
@mike in dc:
Damn it, and I just gathered all this wood.
Mnemosyne
@BlueDWarrior:
It’s a frustrating thing to deal with. I’m a Democrat because I don’t believe in moral absolutes except on a very, very few subjects. I don’t want to be stuck in a political party that mirrors the absolutism of the Republicans in the other direction.
Spider-Dan
Think of an outspoken Republican Senator; say, Mike Lee.
Imagine that he was accused of convincing a woman consent to a kiss under sketchy pretenses, then going past those pretenses and being rebuffed.
Imagine that he was later knowingly photographed simulating groping her while she was asleep.
Now imagine that this woman was a frequent MSNBC guest, and regularly appeared on Rachel Maddow’s show. Say, Ana Marie Cox.
Words do not exist to describe the blinding speed at which 1) the Republicans would denounce this as a nakedly partisan political hitjob and 2) the media would take those objections to swiftly “opinions differ” the entire episode.
Unilateral disarmament and asymmetric responses are a terrible idea.
different-church-lady
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
It was Alabama: consent begins in the womb there.
TenguPhule
@Emma:
The alligator and tarantula lobby would like to have a quiet word with you.
schrodingers_cat
@Major Major Major Major: They are as stupid as the dumb T voters we like to make fun of. These calls for a unilateral disarmament in the face of a relentless enemy is proof positive of that.
bupalos
@BlueDWarrior: I don’t think the right wing wants a Franken resignation here at all. I think this is more an attempt to inoculate and try to work out a truce ahead of time on an issue that is going to be big big trouble for them.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
And a quote from one of my favorite authors who ISN’T a known creep:
The failure mode of clever is “asshole”.
TenguPhule
@jk:
Said every fucking third party voter in 2016.
HOW DID THAT WORK OUT?
Bobby Thomson
@ruemara: this.
TenguPhule
@bupalos: Truce? With Republicans?
A truce between foxes and chickens.
SatanicPanic
@schrodingers_cat: What about this is “unilateral disarmament”? I’ve asked this over and over and the response seem to be- Franken did some good questioning of Sessions and maybe he’s better odds to win reelection in 2020. That’s not terrible strong stuff. He’s not a deciding vote on any important issue.
Mnemosyne
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
The documentary about Ellison, Dreams With Sharp Teeth, is actually pretty interesting. You can simultaneously see what an asshole he is and why some people are willing to put up with him anyway.
I found out recently that he was a big mentor for Octavia Butler, so that was a point in his favor vs the dozen points against him.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Wait? What?
bupalos
@schrodingers_cat:
The funny thing is IMO the folks that want to defend the harassment are the ones that are “disarming,” for a coming battle that will be way bigger than a Minnesota senate seat we’ll retain either way.
Full ethics investigation is probably a good middle ground here for now.
different-church-lady
And put the TBogg on the board!
Betty Cracker
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Well said. Thank you.
different-church-lady
@bupalos: Oh you poor innocent…
germy
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Zimmer_Bradley#Child_sex_abuse_allegations
Cacti
@Major Major Major Major:
Or as one of the saints of the left so aptly illustrated:
Major Major Major Major
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Oh that’s great, I didn’t know that one.
@Cacti: He deleted that tweet, you know. Sad!
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
That’s a good word for it. I was really disappointed to see this news about Fraken today. It wouldn’t surprise me if this was a partially politically motivated rat-fucking since Franken is such a ball buster for Sessions during hearings. It’s just seems a little suspicious given the timing. I’ll wait and see.
schrodingers_cat
@different-church-lady: Isn’t a Tbogg a 1000 comments?
Amir Khalid
@John Cole:
You mean to say, Franken should resign pending an exonerating statement from a third party? Does not compute.
Anyhoo, he’s asked the Senate to investigate his conduct. I’m with those here who want to see what that turns up before demanding Franken’s head.
Mnemosyne
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Also, I read The Mists of Avalon many years ago, said “Ew!” and never read any more MZB. Something about that book just creeped me the hell out.
Lee
He should apologize and move on. The photo was staged. If I understand it was taken on a USO tour. If that is true this would be the tamest bit of humor in the history of the US military.
As for the kissing bit: the actress was already hesitant in a rehearsal so he was probably correct with his insistence of rehearsing the kiss. If it did play out as she claims he obviously could have handled it better.
schrodingers_cat
@Cacti: And don’t forget all the Greenwald love.
I yearn for the days when all we had to worry about was meta data and dronez.
SFAW
@germy:
You seem to be implying that Roger Stone is engaged in some version of ratfuckery. I find that hard to believe. Why, next thing I know, you’ll be trying to tell me that DJT has ever lied or been wrong.
TenguPhule
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Oh they exist. And they skew Republican.
And guess what, some of the women are worse then the men. Much worse.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@schrodingers_cat:
Pretty sure it’s 500. What would 1000 comments be called? I vote for “Cole Unit”. Let’s make this thread 1000 comments long!
bupalos
@TenguPhule: In relative treatment of women, I’m pretty sure the D’s are going to be in a much stronger position than the R’s. A weakened Franken staying and everyone deciding it’s ok because it wasn’t all that much harrassment/assault is, to my mind, the best case R scenario.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat: 500
different-church-lady
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Are you allowed to do that?
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Spider-Dan:
Yes, well, your hypothetical goes both ways, doen’t it? What would we be saying about Cox in that case? Would we be bringing up how she made a living showing off her breasts and genitals, as somebody on this thread has done? Do you really think we’d be waving this claim as nothing? I have a hard time seeing how that’s at all likely.
I don’t see anybody here calling for Democrats to “unilaterally disarm”. But we have our share of creeps and perverts, and I think we’ve reached the point where these stories aren’t going to be left hidden any longer. They’r going to come out, and my feeling is that we’re better off now making our minds up how we’re going to deal with them when they do. I’m going to make it my position to believe the woman unless there’s some overwhelmingly compelling reason not to. I can only speak for myself.
different-church-lady
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
A tragedy?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
In light of the serious nature of this thread, I will refrain from the obvious joke.
But phrasing!
SatanicPanic
It’s unilateral disarmament if we don’t fight every sexual assault accusation with everything we have! This woman is a right winger, she must be lying. Why didn’t she come forward sooner? The timing sure is suspicious!
When do we progress to the classics? You know, she shouldn’t have dressed that way.
Immanentize
This thread is so long, I hate to add now, but I thought I would put in my professional skeptic, defense attorney eyes on this, which lead me to say, “Don’t be hasty.”
The Grope:
If the allegation is that the picture is of Franken groping the woman, it doesn’t — it is exculpating — proves his innocence. If the claim is that the grope happened before or after the picture took place, well, there are witnesses — at least two more, right? The guy sitting next to her and the photographer. Maybe many more. At least he photographer was there and awake….
The forced kiss. If it happened the way it was told, it is definitely a version of sexual assault. Franken says that is not his memory of events. Lots of possibilities here. He is just dodging (the weak sauce complaint). Or, he might have a very different story to tell which might include witnesses and other evidence. In that case, I would say, “I think it went down differently, but I apologize.” Also, there might be some knowledge that Franken has that is not very nice about his accuser and/or the circumstances of that trip which is probably best left out of the discussion. So many want blood in the water all the time, but some do not see things the same way and Franken actually strikes me as a guy who doesn’t gratuitously hurt others without cause.
I have lots of other questions like about the kiss itself…
This is Ms. Richardson, who was the woman who was the most recent complainant about Moore:
This is Leanne from above:
That is a strange horrible violative way to kiss someone fr the first time — its not about sex, it’s about violence and control. I would expect, like in Moore’s case, for this to not be a one off if that is how Franken approached Leanne. So I am waiting/looking for more women to come forward regarding Franken.
Also, Franken and all the Dems are demanding an ethics hearing about the allegations. That makes me think my skepticism is probably well founded — at the very least in the sense that the Republicans cannot afford to make this the standard for discipline. But my (long experience educated) guess is that it is not what it is being said it is. But I could be wrong! I can say I really do not have any confidence reagrding what happened yet.
So let’s wait a bit — maybe at least one day? — before demanding a scalp.
ETA — I must say I also was pretty critical of the original story about Moore until I read the article which was really quite well-sourced. Still, the touching of the 14 year old seemed out of place with the other tales. Until the woman from the diner told her tale of a near-rape. I have confidence about what Moore did.
Betty Cracker
@Amir Khalid: That’s reasonable. My initial impulse — that Franken should resign — is based on two assumptions: 1) the woman is telling the truth, and 2) a man who would do what she described has done that same shit before, so other women will come forward. We’ll find out soon enough.
TenguPhule
@bupalos:
Have you not been paying any attention at all to politics for the last 16 years?
Republican offenses last one political cycle before dying in the memory hole with the media.
Meanwhile any D offense real or imagined, lives forever.
different-church-lady
@SatanicPanic:
“My, but you do make that flak jacket look fetching…”
Miss Bianca
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): That’s great, Mr. “I believe the women”. Until your belief calls for someone’s head on a pike when it might not deserve to be there. Or when your belief calls for us all to march off a cliff, or throw someone else off.
And any time you find yourself agreeing with Mitch McConnell, you need to start thinking again. Mitch “believes the women” because it’s politically expedient for him to do so, not as a matter of principle. He’d be defending Moore if he thought Moore was going to be an asset to him in the Senate, not a lunatic liability.
geg6
@schrodingers_cat:
Well, to be fair, a lot of those here who are calling for Al’s head right this minute seem to be males (not all, of course). Probably white, too. Why should they suffer any embarrassment because of Al? If women, children and people of color have to suffer so that a few lefty, holier-than-thou purity pony white guys aren’t embarrassed, we should just shut up and agree with them.
SatanicPanic
@different-church-lady: Upthread someone says it can’t be assault because she’s wearing a flak jacket. I didn’t know that’s what they’re for. Jesus.
schrodingers_cat
@Miss Bianca: Isn’t it funny how its mostly men who want to throw Franken under the bus in these comments. If women disagree, than we must be old hags according to Phoenix Rising (no idea about PR’s gender)
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic:
The woman is a right winger who routinely lies for a living on Fox News, her credibility is in question here.
We don’t trust male Republicans by default, why would you trust a female one without verification?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@SatanicPanic:
Oh come on that’s bullshit and a false equivalence. That’s like comparing the Spruce Goose to the Space Shuttle. It’s not wrong to be a little suspicious of a person who might have have an agenda. I never said she must be lying. She could be telling the truth. Even if she is I don’t think what he did is worthy of resignation. A pattern? Different story. There needs to be more and better proof of that though.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat: Hey now, I’m a guy and I’m in full agreement with you.
kindness
I am in no position to cast stones. No I’ve never raped or sexually harrassed anyone, but I am not a pure individual.
I don’t see a pattern in Franken’s actions. I see an mildly bad humor pic during a helicopter ride during one of Al’s many USO tours which I don’t feel is disqualifying. And a woman said he kissed her once. Al said he didn’t remember that but apologized for both actions. Again I don’t see a pattern and I don’t think this is anything remotely like what Louis CK, Roy Moore, Trump are accused of doing.
That is why I don’t agree with many of you that Al needs to get the hell out of Dodge for this. I will admit I love Al and donated to him up through this last election. But this isn’t the same transgressions that we see in those Others that are now in trouble. I don’t really care what anyone thinks of me because of what I think. I put Al in the same zone as Elizabeth Warren and am not interested in killing off one of our side’s best Congress Critters because of what has come out so far. Purity ponies killed us in the last election. Do we really need to relearn that lesson so soon?
Villago Delenda Est
@TenguPhule: Prezactly.
Cheryl Rofer
@mike in dc: This:
bupalos
@SatanicPanic:
It’s already happened within this thread.
SatanicPanic
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: It’s not a false equivalence, it’s exactly the same thing. It’s at most a matter of degree. Believe women… except demand a higher burden of proof if they’re on the other side. I mean, fine, but you know that’s exactly what Roy Moore’s enablers are going to do. I’m not OK with that.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
To be fair, both flew poorly.
Mnemosyne
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
My overwhelmingly compelling reason is that the photo is obviously staged. YMMV.
And the context of the kiss is a little odd. It was a rehearsal for a skit where they were going to need to kiss. I can certainly see a possible situation where signals got crossed and she misunderstood why he was being insistent if he was trying to get the skit right and she thought he was hitting on her.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Cheryl Rofer:
No we have to force him out now! Don’t you hags understand!? No one can ever make a mistake and we must rush to judgement so that we can have a moral victory over the R’s while we help them immediately torpedo one of our best senators. Damn due process.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Miss Bianca:
Well, I don’t really care why he believes them. He believes them. In his case, it could well be for cynical, manipulative reasons. That’s too bad, but they at least led him to the right answer. And I believe the women, maybe for other reasons, reasons I hope are better ones. But I do believe them.
As I said, if this is all Franken ever did, the worst he ever did, I hope he stays on, and I think he will stay on if this is as far as it goes. But we need to be ready to deal with worse cases than this. We’ve been lucky so far. Up until now, all our creeps and perverts have been backbenchers like Wiener and the mayor of San Diego and the congressman from Oregon. We haven’t had anything like this catch up with anybody with any kind of national presence, but we’re kidding ourselves if we think it isn’t going to happen.
It will, because in any big enough group of people, sooner or later you’ll find somebody in it who’s a creep or a pervert or worse, and there are, what, 300 Democratic men in high office in the U.S.? Something like that? If you think we don’t have our own Trump in there, you’re nuts. I hope we’re lucky enough that we don’t have any Moores. But there are serial harassers or worse. The law of averages says that some of them are going to have a higher profile than Anthony Wiener or David Wu. We’d be well advised to get ourselves ready to deal with this shit when it comes down the pike.
Miss Bianca
@schrodingers_cat: White guys – and white women too – can afford to shoot first and ask questions later. POC don’t get that luxury, and always, or so it seems to me, have to be playing the long game. “Yeah, this guy may be a skeevy son of a bitch, but can I afford to take the chance that his successor is going to be better?”
D58826
@Immanentize:
I guess people can remember kisses different ways. But wasn’t this a rehearsal for some kind of TV SKIT? Maybe the kiss was meant to show some kind of deep passion and not just a brief flirtation. My point is that it was part of a TV production, she wasn’t sitting on the set and he just came up and started kissing her for no reason.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic:
Roy Moore’s accusers VOTED FOR TRUMP. FFS. That they’re from the same party gives them MORE CREDIBILITY and don’t pretend otherwise.
FOX lies, its documented and we all know they do. Perhaps it might be unfair to her, but that’s what happens when you are paid to LIE for a living.
But hey, what could possibly go wrong by turning on our own in our darkest hour, AMIRITE?
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Mnemosyne: Don’t ever, ever try the Darkover books, then.
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Hmm, what I’ve been seeing in this thread (aside from hysteria verging on a moral panic) is people pointing out that resignation over this one incident is the equivalent of execution for an accusation of burglary.
I thought we were the ones who stand for due process and all those difficult and patience-wearing laws.
KithKanan
@SatanicPanic: FWIW, I have the same standard for Franken I would for a Republican. If I’m going to end a career/overrule the voters and demand a resignation from elected office, I need either a single proven accusation more serious than this currently appears to be or a pattern of unacceptable behavior.
CaseyL
Boy, that oft-repeated instruction to wait a little bit before commenting seems to be holding up in this case: Franken has issued an apology; Tweeden has accepted it.
Can we NOT do the Right’s job for them? Please?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@SatanicPanic:
Roy Moore has several credible, low profile accusers. There’s a clear pattern of abuse and there’s third party collaboration of evidence that casts him in a bad light. Not the same.
I generally believe women too, but I’m not a gullible moron. I’m slightly sceptical right now. If more come forward I’m willing to change my mind.
notoriousJRT
I have not read all the comments, so sorry if I am redundant. I think Franken owes a better response to his accuser. It sounded anything but sincere, and it was a blow off, IMO. But, I am not ready to call for his resignation for a single incident. I do not yet have enough information for that. I don’t know if I am supposed to be “better” than anyone else, and I think demanding resignation on this story alone is an over-reaction. I am deeply disappointed in Franken at the moment, but I need to learn more.
MazeDancer
@ruemara:
Being skeptical of Hannity/Breitbart/Fox is part of reality. They happily lie and exaggerate. Painfully, my immediate “I believe the woman” response has to admit that reality.
Both the political reality and the men do horrible things reality have to be addressed.
If the standard is now elected officials accused of abuse have to apologize immediately and if they feel the charge has exaggerations they must face ethics review, that’s a good standard. Moore will face it if he’s elected. Hope Trump faces it soon.
If the standard becomes one accusation – not a 30 person sourced WaPo article – means you must resign immediately, Breitbart/Hannity?fox will find accusers for all their enemies.
Can’t erase political reality. Hope we can erase abuse. And Trump.
germy
TenguPhule
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
We don’t. For the rather obvious reason that we’re not fucking Nazis.
Major Major Major Major
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: BTW thank you for using the phrase “moral panic”, I’ve also been on high alert for that lately.
Miss Bianca
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): If by “well advised to get ourselves ready” you mean “Let’s jump to the worst possible conclusion right away, call for the most draconian action possible, and then only grudgingly, if at all, admit there might be higher stakes or different principles or a set of counternarratives or facts involved that might call for NOT doing that” then…I can only say, I’m not of that opinion, myself.
TenguPhule
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
This is not how averages work.
different-church-lady
I’ve been hesitating with this, because it’s such fraught territory, but…
There is a huge… a HUGE difference between “We must believe the women” and “We must stop dismissing them out of hand.”
geg6
Rather than burning Al Franken at the stake, I’m much more interested in knowing who the two congresscritters are who have cost us tax payers $15 million in settlements. There is one D and one R. They both should go, whomever they are. If their behavior was so egregious that we tax payers are on the hook to the tune of $15 million for them, they should be gone today. How about let’s get all riled up and get ready to hang these guys and worry about Al either when the ethics investigation is complete or it comes out that he’s one of the two congresscritters that have cost us all that cash?
TenguPhule
@germy: That lying fucker Moore.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
Holding someone’s reputation for dishonesty against them is not unfair in the least, and happens to witnesses every day in courts of law.
In cases of one person’s word against another, credibility is everything.
Mnemosyne
@D58826:
And it does seem to have been an actual rehearsal for a sketch they performed, not a hey, baby, come to my hotel room and we’ll read that script I told you about situation.
This may or may not change anyone’s mind, but I can actually picture a non-sexual reason for him to get a little aggressive — she kept balking at rehearsing something that he thought was an integral part of the scene, and he got angry and impatient. It’s not a great reason, but it’s not quite sexual assault in the classic sense, either.
SteveO
Apparently, they still did the skit for the troops.
Mnemosyne
@notoriousJRT:
Keep reading — he has now issued a fuller apology (which she has accepted) and asked the Senate Ethics Committee to investigate him.
different-church-lady
@germy: Maybe Moore should admit guilt and see if it works out the same way for him.
Miss Bianca
@different-church-lady:
Ayup. I’ll back you on that one, sister.
SatanicPanic
@KithKanan: That’s fair.
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Well OK, good luck with that. The photo is damning enough and I believe her account. I’m not going to discount her claim because (R).
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
Yeah, the Space Shuttle was a giant waste of time and money. Saturn-Apollo derived hardware would have served us far better but we wanted that fantasy of cost effective, convenient, routine space travel that’s still decades away. However that’s a topic for another day.
germy
Mark Adams
@BlueDWarrior: Yes, this! This is why we lose. How is it even remotely possible to equate Judge Moore’s situation with this? Moore’s notorious degeneracy and abuse of his power for sexual gratification exposed by diligent investigation and corroborated by scores of on-the-record witnesses caused the core GOP to man the barricades. Franken gets called out for taking some vulgar humor too far by ONE news woman who is an occasional Hannity and Gutfield’s Red Eye guest — and the purity police of the core left is ready to run away.
Hey, maybe Franken IS an unfit degenerate, probably is. But next time someone talks about how we have to fight, fight, fight the conservative monsters, remember how timidly we handled this. Instantly turning on Franken does not show we are “better” than them as much as it proves an exploitable weakness they will use against us.
Have we heard from the photographer, they guy witting next to her in the picture? Nope. Just a hit job from a Fox Sports employee who rocketed to success after turning a job as a Hooter’s girl into modeling fame. I welcome McConnel’s investigation.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@SatanicPanic:
My position is basically KithKanan’s.
Eljai
@Betty Cracker: That sounds reasonable. I think we should take these and all allegations seriously. We should not minimize or humiliate the persons making the accusations. However, for me, “believe women” does not mean that I also throw out due process or discernment. I think further investigation is completely warranted, but I’m not yet convinced that Franken should resign.
Cacti
@Mark Adams:
Moore used his position as county prosecutor to have his way with teenage girls. Classic predator behavior. Unforgivable.
A crude photo isn’t even in the same moral galaxy.
Major Major Major Major
@SatanicPanic:
As… what, exactly? He’s not touching her.
Fair Economist
@D58826:
Quintuple amen on that! Remember the Agriculture official who was forced to resign for something that didn’t happen?
John
If this happened in 2006, why didn’t Tweeden come forward in 2008 when Franken was locked in one of the closest Senate races in history. It could have made an major impact at that time, maybe even prevented Franken from winning. I think this is political opportunism, at best.
mike in dc
@geg6:
I’m pretty sure the 15 million wasn’t just for 2 sitting members, but that the fund includes settlements for claims against anyone working on Capitol Hill, including staffers.
But her emails!!!
@SatanicPanic:
The photo is staged and he’s not actually touching her. He’s being a pig, but he’s not assaulting her.
different-church-lady
@Fair Economist:
Yup: defensive purity run amok.
SatanicPanic
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: OK, fine.
Darkrose
@John: I was kind of wondering about that.
Immanentize
@Miss Bianca: Me too — agreed. Dare I say, “trust but verify?”
Humboldtblue
This is one of the most fascinating threads I have ever read.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
I’m not either.
I am going to look at her unverified claim with increased skepticism, because of her association with an outfit that routinely traffics in salacious lies: Fox News.
PJ
@Humboldtblue: Wait til you see the miniseries.
germy
@different-church-lady: Remember Acorn? Disbanded over a phony video?
EDIT: as Fair Economist said.
Fair Economist
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: I didn’t know Bradley herself did anything. She hung out with some pretty skeevy people, although I forget the details.
Immanentize
@different-church-lady: Shirley Sherrod. I will never forget that event. She was taken down without a moment to respond. And being a black woman was reason enough for some to believe the worst things (untrue) said about her. Very very bad play by progressive (pant-crapping) Dems.
schrodingers_cat
@Miss Bianca: I don’t what it is. I am an outsider in many ways though I have lived here for over 20 years, and my background is in science, physics to be more precise. So cynicism comes to me naturally and I question everything. Always have.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Eljai: AFAIAC, an honest investigation is what the woman is owed. I’m taking her story seriously enough that I’m not dismissing it out of hand, but I’m also not going to take either person’s word at face value. The Duke Lacrosse case fell apart upon a proper investigation; I suspect that this might, as well, for a number of reasons.
Ridnik Chrome
600th!
Humboldtblue
@PJ:
At this point it threatens to become a multi-book series
I love reading the smart motherfuckers who gather here.
SatanicPanic
@But her emails!!!: Staged by who? Obviously a photo with someone pretending to do something is “staged” but that doesn’t tell us if she was in on the joke. At any rate the joke’s gross.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic:
Yes, now.
But back then, not so much.
PJ
@Humboldtblue: Amazon has been looking for the next Game of Thrones, and this thread already has a cast of dozens. Does Cole have an agent? I’ll send CAA an email right away.
Spanky
geg6
@mike in dc:
The way I heard Jackie Spier say it on MSNBC last night was that two men had made settlements costing tax payers $15 million. Rep. Spier said that there may be other settlements but that the ones that tax payers are paying for was for 2 men for $15 million.
schrodingers_cat
@Spanky: Who cares, we must slaughter our own to prove our ritual purity say our progressive betters.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: It was gross ten years ago too, but ‘gross joke’ is not cause for dismissal.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
Well, sure, but making a gross joke is not the same as sexually assaulting someone.
Gravenstone
I’ll go back to actually read the comments, but this thread blew up in a fucking hurry. 100ish comments when I scrolled by earlier, 600+ now that I’ve finally gotten time to give it a gander. There are going to be a lot of accountings in the coming days, but keep focused on the difference in how these are handled. Thus far, some people apologize when confronted with the facts. The majority (hello, Mr. Moore) deny, obfuscate and threaten without ever accepting the reality of their actions. We’ll see which avenue proves more effective in the long run.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: I never said that it was.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
And I have one last thing to say and then, to everybody’s everlasting thanks, I’m going to shut up about this. There’s a big practical reason to get our shit together on this, and that’s that everything has changed. It’s happened so fast, and came so seemingly out of nowhere that everybody is a little knocked off stride about this, but whether we like it or not, whether it’s fair or not, whether we wish it were otherwise, or happening in some other way or happening more slowly or not, this is happening.
I keep saying that we need to get ready to deal with the inevitable cases in our own party that come oozing out. So far we’re lucky. This is a fairly tame scandal as these things go. If this is all there is on Franken, I think it’s likely he won’t have to go anywhere, and I hope he doesn’t. I want him right where he is. If this is all, we can ride it out, but if it turns out there’s more, we need to be ready to deal with that, and to be willing to demand that Franken do the right thing and give up his seat. We need to learn fast how to deal with the new world we’re living in.
If you don’t believe me, look at the Republicans. They are at risk of losing a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. They’re in this spot because they don’t know how to deal with accusations like this. They reflexively write off the women. They laugh at them, they demean them and they tell us they’re lying, and that isn’t going over well.
Just one year ago, they had the same problem when Trump’s pussy-grabbing tape came out, and they did the same thing to the women who came out about that, and they still won. They barely won, but they won. The same thing is happening now in Alabama, one year later, and they may lose that seat because they’re still behaving like it’s 2016, but it isn’t.
I never once called for Franken to step down in this thread–unless it comes out that there’s more to it than this one-off. But we’d damned well better learn how to take this shit seriously, and I don’t think making jokes about how she’s a liar because she goes on Sean Hannity or worked as a model is good enough. She could be lying. I think that’s unlikely, but she could be. But even models get groped and harassed. Even people who go on Fox News get groped and harassed. And sometimes people we’d rather not believe are doing this shit are going to be the ones caught doing it. We need to get our shit together and work out how to handle these things, because they’re coming, whether we like it or not.
But her emails!!!
@SatanicPanic: Yes, the joke is gross. I’m just not sure taking a suggestive picture rises to the level of demanding someone’s resignation from the Senate.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: It was the Dumb and Dumber, Beevis & Butthead era. People actually found it funny.
Mnemosyne
@John:
Meh. Since she has publicly accepted his apology, I’m willing to chalk it up to it having been something that grossed her out at the time but wasn’t really a huge deal even to her. It came up because everyone is taking about celebrities and she was like, Well, this one time when I was rehearsing a skit with Al Franken …
Ben Cisco
The GOP has pegged the lot of us for a bunch of dopes.
It remains to be seen whether or not they are proven right.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
But you still think he should resign because of that gross joke and an in-character kiss during a rehearsal for a skit that they went on to perform later.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
How do I get out of moderation? I think it’s because I referred to Trump’s püssy grabbing. Can somebody help me out here? Take the word out if you need to.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Mnemosyne:
Yeah, but she didn’t want to kiss in the skit and she didn’t want to practice, and he insisted. I can’t read that any other way than badly. He should have taken the kiss out of the skit. Problem solved. And he damned sure shouldn’t have pressured her or stuck his tongue in her mouth. There’s no excuse for that.
mike in dc
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): That word seems so much classier with the umlaut.
schrodingers_cat
@Ben Cisco: First the Donna Brazille thing with the rigging and now this. Putin is laughing at how idiotic so many of us seem to be.
msdc
@Cckids: I’m not one of those calling for Franken to resign immediately; I’m willing to wait and see what the investigations turn up. But by the same token, I’m not comfortable with these knee-jerk attacks on his accuser either, even if her politics are sketchy. That comes right out of the Trump and Moore apologists’ playbook.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@mike in dc: Doesn’t it?
FlipYrWhig
You know what would really light the political world on fire would be if the next high-profile groper, harasser, etc. turned out to be Bernie Sanders.
TenguPhule
@msdc:
Look, the woman LIES FOR A LIVING.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
Well, I’m just going to copy the post here with the offending word taken out:
And I have one last thing to say and then, to everybody’s everlasting thanks, I’m going to shut up about this. There’s a big practical reason to get our shit together on this, and that’s that everything has changed. It’s happened so fast, and it came so seemingly out of nowhere that everybody is a little knocked off stride about this, but whether we like it or not, whether it’s fair or not, whether we wish it were otherwise, or happening in some other way or happening more slowly or not, this is happening.
I keep saying that we need to get ready to deal with the inevitable cases in our own party that come oozing out. So far we’re lucky. This is a fairly tame scandal as these things go. If this is all there is on Franken, I think it’s likely he won’t have to go anywhere, and I hope he doesn’t. I want him right where he is. If this is all, we can ride it out, but if it turns out there’s more, we need to be ready to deal with that, and to be willing to demand that Franken do the right thing and give up his seat. We need to learn fast how to deal with the new world we’re living in.
If you don’t believe me, look at the Republicans. They are at risk of losing a U.S. Senate race in Alabama. They’re in this spot because they don’t know how to deal with accusations like this. They reflexively write off the women. They laugh at them, they demean them and they tell us they’re lying, and that isn’t going over well.
Just one year ago, they had the same problem when Trump’s p—y-grabbing tape came out, and they did the same thing to the women who came out about that, and they still won. They barely won, but they won. The same thing is happening now in Alabama, one year later, and they may lose that seat because they’re still behaving like it’s 2016, but it isn’t.
I never once called for Franken to step down in this thread–unless it comes out that there’s more to it than this one-off. But we’d damned well better learn how to take this shit seriously, and I don’t think making jokes about how she’s a liar because she goes on Sean Hannity or worked as a model is good enough. She could be lying. I think that’s unlikely, but she could be. But even models get groped and harassed. Even people who go on Fox News get groped and harassed. And sometimes people we’d rather not believe are doing this shit are going to be the ones caught doing it. We need to get our shit together and work out how to handle these things, because they’re coming, whether we like it or not. The world changes. We can either change with it or get screwed.
burnspbesq
@Amaranthine RBG:
I’m sure your moral purity will be a comfort to you when you’re homeless and dying on the street from a condition that could easily be managed if only you had access to decent health care.
GOVCHRIS1988
I said this on a couple of blogs earlier.
MY GOD, for once, can Liberals have some nuts before taking their Samarai Swords and cutting their own goddamn jugulars. This shit is EXACTLY why we’re once state legislative seat from ALEC rewriting our fucking constitution., I fucking wonder why we don’t have power at times, but this rolls around and every Liberal panics like Godzilla has just invaded their town, and I see why. I’m sorry, but this shit needs to be admitted, Republicans play politics better than we do. Every time, they do this shit, and Liberals always go around saying “We’re better than them, so we must do this.” and play into their hands every time. We laud ourselves for “moral victories” that don’t mean shit while Republicans put ghost hunters in the Judiciary. CHRIST! We gain NOTHING from trying to be Pollyanna with voters. We’re trying to apologize for supporting Clinton while we have an admitted pussygrabber as president and haven’t seen one Republican apologize for that. I haven’t seen one call for an investigation into ANY of Trump’s allegations, yet Al Franken gets a senate ethics investigation over bullshit he did 11 years ago as a comedian. We’re throwing away a guy, while Republicans bearhug theirs. Oh yes, we’re morally right though. Fuck wish we had some power to go with that morally righteousness, like maybe Congress, the Presidency, the Supreme Court, the Federal Judiciary, The majority of state legislatures.
Look, I’m not saying that sexual assault and molestation shouldn’t be taken seriously. I’m not saying that Al Franken shouldn’t atone for this and it should be a teachable lesson that men shouldn’t touch a woman unprompted, even for jokes anymore. That we shouldn’t use women as playthings for our enjoyment or use our positions in entertainment or politics as a way to get easy ass or expect everyone to give it to us because of that. Nor, should we practice our perversions on women who are just simply expecting a meeting, not a quickie, a meeting. Times have changed and behavior that was sanctioned in the past is not sanctioned now and that will make for a better world. But I also believe in not overdoing this shit. That means not writing an article apologizing for backing or defending Bill Clinton, especially if you are a 36 year old millennial that wasn’t even goddamned old enough to vote for Clinton. I’m also NOT going to believe Juanita Broadderick, the rightwing puppet woman that backed the pussygrabber in chief who even Ken Starr didn’t use in his crusade against Clinton because she was untrustworthy as hell and recanted her statements under oath and refused to recant THOSE statements under oath today. Look, we can and should admit that for many years that many women have been ignored, stifled, and downright abused when they dared to be brave and speak up about their experiences. Many of them suffered job losses, had livelihoods and relationships upended, had their mental and physical health harmed. Every woman should have a hearing and be taken seriously when the question of sexual misconduct against them is brought up. But we also shouldn’t overdo it in our quest to make up for those years of ignoring them and just automatically believe everybody just to make ourselves feel like were doing good instead of actually doing good. We have to accept that some folks will abuse that and will use that for their nefarious ends. Like Roger Stone and Sean Hannity are doing with this woman today.
Roy Moore is still poison. He preyed on innocent little girls, not grown ass women. He was booted from a fucking mall because he was such a snarling letch. He used court cases and his position to allow plenty of sexual molesters like himself off of their crimes, thus allowing them to keep doing it. I’m sorry, but this is worse than what Al Franken did and I make NO apologies for saying that. I’ve always believed Moore would win, simply because this is Alabama, red as blood. They are a state ripe with open incest, sexual molestation and inbreeding under the guise of THEIR word of God. I live in the neighboring state of Georgia, trust me on this. And Roy Moore ain’t the first one, Dennis Hastert anyone? I’m just saying Liberals, BE SMARTER.
Mnemosyne
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
If she didn’t want to perform the skit as written and wanted a re-write, that’s what she should have said. I can’t say I have a huge amount of acting experience, but most actors will kiss during rehearsals if that’s what the script calls for, because you don’t want any awkwardness or mistakes during the actual performance.
That’s why I’m wondering if this is a situation of a professional being too impatient with an amateur’s questions than a sexual assault case.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ben Cisco: They have people like SatanicPanic and Amaranthine RBG in mind.
retr2327
@feebog: Well, this point seems to be getting lost in the parade of conflicting bandwagons, but there’s a whole world of difference, IMHO at least, between pretending to grope an unconscious woman because you think it’s funny, i.e., for the sake of humor, however misguided, and ACTUALLY groping an unconscious woman for sexual gratification or power gratification.
Everything about this photo (i.e., the space clearly visible under the fingers of his left hand, the likely space under the fingers of his right, the presence of what seems to be a flak jacket, the purposefully idiotic grin on his face and the very fact that he clearly knew a photo was being taken) suggests the former to me. And that may be tasteless, gross, and offensive to the sleeping woman, but it’s not a crime and it’s not an offense that requires resignation.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Fair Economist: There are links in the Wikipedia article if you really want the details. Her defense of Breen would be enough to put her into skeevy territory. The rest is, well. Bradley was a deeply damaged person.
Major Major Major Major
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): sure. I agree with all of that. And Cole is being a fucking idiot.
Villago Delenda Est
@TenguPhule: This, This, THIS. She works at Faux Noise. She’s been hired to tell lies, to propagandize. Unlike Shep Smith, she actually does that. She has no moral compass as a result.
Amaranthine RBG
@burnspbesq:
This is 2017.
The Democratic Party has to send a clear message that such behavior WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
I hope Franken can get the treatment he so obviously needs.
Amaranthine RBG
@Villago Delenda Est:
You’re not different to the republicans who are making excuses for Moore.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Mnemosyne:
Well, she said she felt badgered, and only went along with it so he would stop badgering her. Maybe she could have or even should have said it more strongly or something, but I read it at least that she didn’t want to do it, said she didn’t want to do it, and he insisted. That looks bad to me. I can’t see that it looks any other way than bad. When somebody says no, you should let it go.
Villago Delenda Est
@FlipYrWhig: Amaranthine RBG would be the first to toss themselves onto the “but it’s Bernie!” excuse bandwagon.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amaranthine RBG: Find a fire to die in, asshole.
eemom
@different-church-lady:
Yeah, and let’s pause a moment and consider how fucking insane it is that it IS fraught.
It was on this very blog a couple of years back that certain ladies went batshit crazy because I suggested that the Rolling Stone article about the alleged rape at UVA should not be assumed true without proof. And lo and behold….
There is absolutely nothing inconsistent about reserving judgment until a case is proved and treating an alleged victim with respect. It’s only “fraught” to people with no sense.
Amaranthine RBG
@Villago Delenda Est:
If Sanders ever did anything as heinous, foul, disgusting, predatory, skeevy, and insulting as to pretend to touch a playboy “model’s” breast area WHILE BEING FILMED ON CAMERA FOR ALL THE WORLD TO SEE, then I would be the very first to insist that he resign and seek treatment at an appropriate facility.
KithKanan
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Cosigned. I expect this to ultimately take down people on our side. We need to be prepared for that. I just don’t want to leap to judgement. I wouldn’t demand a Republican resign based only upon what we know about Franken so far.
Kass
Bring on the investigation. But don’t forget how much Franken is hated by the R’s for tripping up Jeff Sessions’ lies, and indirectly causing Trump’s AG to recuse himself from the Russia situation.
Mnemosyne
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
It’s ACTING. It was specifically for a sketch that they later performed. If you think he insisted solely because he wanted to assault her and not because it was part of the scene, I think you need a little more support for that position than, Well, she was uncomfortable with it.
If you want to have a conversation about how and why people get exploited in entertainment and why they don’t feel comfortable speaking up, that’s a different conversation than one that’s about Al Franken (allegedly) sexually assaulting a woman.
Again, I don’t have a huge amount of acting experience, but I can see this as being a genuine misunderstanding between them.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amaranthine RBG: Sure you would.
Drawing any parallel between Franken’s crime and Moore’s indicates your moral compass is shot to hell.
You should join your moral compass in the fire.
WaterGirl
@Major Major Major Major:
This!
Amaranthine RBG
@Villago Delenda Est:
Guess what, YOU don’t get to decide what is appropriate.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: And it was the USO.
They performed for troops who expected adult level entertainment. Let’s see a description of the whole actual sketch, not this piece meal selective slight of hand.
grubert
@bupalos:
Nonsense. Absolute nonsense.
gwangung
@Mnemosyne: In the acting and sketch scene, you are expected to rehearse intimate scenes precisely because you want the real thing to have the proper effect. If you object to kissing, you’re expected to come up with something that has just as big an effect, because the end game is to entertain/please/move the audience.
But it’s also true there are assholes who use kissing scenes as cover to use tongue, which is not acceptable. (On the other hand, there are folks who USED to be guilty of that, but no longer do that…and they’ve been accepted back into the fold).
(And it is true that there’s a power differential here, in that Franken is the bigger name and the bigger expert in comedy; whether that rises to the level of abuse in all cases is something that needs some discussion).
Amaranthine RBG
@grubert:
Stop blaming the victim!
VincentN
Where’s the line?
That’s really what is getting everyone up in arms. For some people, this apparently is the line and Franken must resign. Others rebuke them for not caring about those who will lose their health insurance or get their taxes raised. But those others also say they would feel differently if Franken turned out to be a rapist, serial groper, or pedophile. So apparently that’s their line for resignation even though presumably the same horrible consequences to the country would still follow.
So how do we determine the line for resignation? Some say there has to be a pattern of misbehavior or a very egregious, single incident. Problem is some think this one incident is that egregious while others are saying it’s not. Does it matter if they haven’t done anything horrible since and have otherwise been doing good in the world? Should it?
Are we standing up for women or are we being over-reacting purity ponies? Some women say this is enough for resignation. Some women say it’s not. Should that factor into our analysis? There are political consequences and bad optics either way. How much should we worry about that?
Honestly, I have no freaking clue. I think resignation is too much but I also don’t want to be making excuses for bad behavior and saying this only deserves a slap on the wrist. I don’t want to set the bar for bad behavior so high that everyone who isn’t a complete monster has nothing to worry about. But I also don’t want to set it so low that only people who have been saints their entire lives (or simply haven’t been caught being unsaintly) will run for office.
I think overall it’s good that these questions are being asked now but I don’t think anybody can predict where this will all lead in the long run.
FlipYrWhig
@Amaranthine RBG: Imagine if he’d previously suggested in published writing that teenage girls have too many sexual hangups BECAUSE OF SOCIETY! thereby preventing them from hooking up with older men like they obviously want to. :/ But I’m glad to hear that you’d be willing to excoriate him too.
different-church-lady
@Amaranthine RBG:
Are there a lot of clinics that help people overcome their mediocre comedy?
FlipYrWhig
@gwangung: I’ve noticed that Mel Gibson, of all people, seems to be coming back.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@VincentN:
Yes, I think you’re right here. From what I can tell, this is the kind of thing that maybe should earn Franken a reprimand from the Ethics Committee, but not resignation. I really hope there aren’t any more of these stories, because he’s great at his work and I want him where he is. But it seems indefensible to me to dismiss the woman’s (I forget her name) claim. And, no, we can’t know where this will lead in the long run, other than that I think a whole shitload of these stories are going to come out, some of them about people we’ve voted for, campaigned for, given money to and look up to. We need to be ready to deal with this new political world that seems to be coming into being. Adapt or die. Happily, adapting is something we seem to be far better at than Republicans are.
But her emails!!!
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Franken didn’t dismiss her claim, so we certainly shouldn’t.
different-church-lady
Dammit people, it was a fuckin’ USO sketch, not the National Theater Company doing something by Tennessee Williams.
FlipYrWhig
I’m trying to figure out what would make the picture a “joke.” Was it more a prank than a joke? Like was it supposed to be that when Tweeden saw the pictures from the trip she’d see one that looked like Al Franken was groping her while she was asleep, and be offended, and then everyone from the trip would say, “hawhaw we just did that to freak you out, nothing happened”?
Mnemosyne
@gwangung:
The fact that this happened during a rehearsal is what muddies the waters for me. If more stories come out that Franken was known to do this during rehearsals with other women, then we should find that out soon. Otherwise, I think it could well be a misunderstanding.
FlipYrWhig
@different-church-lady: Good point. A Tennessee Williams performance would have _more_ creepy tension and sexualized interaction.
different-church-lady
@FlipYrWhig: Have you never seen someone pull out a Sharpie and write something on a sleeping partygoer’s forehead?
Amir Khalid
@Amaranthine RBG:
You must be the sort to quintuple-underline words for emphasis.
Are you suggesting she was something other, perhaps less respectable, than a model? Also, too: her previous jobs are irrelevant.
Your sainted Bernard ran for President without realising it’s one of the world’s most demanding executive jobs, requiring exhaustive preparation, well-honed people skills, and a good sense of political strategy — none of which he had. That’s pretty bad in my book.
different-church-lady
@FlipYrWhig: Which you’d want to rehearse, because it would be important to the impact of the drama to get it right.
Seriously, discussing the qualitative thespian-related need to rehearse a kiss in this instance is a bunch of horse shit.
FlipYrWhig
@different-church-lady: I haven’t, honestly, but, yes, this seems to be somewhere in that general neighborhood (I originally typed “neigbrohood,” which seems apropos as well). That way it has the logic of a prank. Whether it’s funny is a different question, but it would be structured vaguely like humor. ETA: I was genuinely curious about what was supposed to be funny. To me classing it as a PRANK rather than a JOKE makes a bit more sense.
gwangung
@Mnemosyne: Yup. Doing tongue more than once unwillingly is across the line.
different-church-lady
@gwangung: Comment of the beast — don’t get a lot of those around here.
Amir Khalid
Did I get 666?
ETA: Missed by two. Rats.
Wasab
Got a hug from Al Franken about that timeframe during a event for Air America. It was the most awkward hug I ever remember receiving. He didn’t seem comfortable even making close contact. To this day I am suprised he could even master the glad-handing skills necessary to be a retail politician. Sure didn’t come off as a predator to me.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: I thought it was a Tbogg unit, and the number is 500.
grubert
How much you wanna bet she was just fine and dandy with the whole comedy sketch, probably even laughed at the bad jokes and hammed up the kiss, but then recently got a robo-call from Birmingham Star reporter Beuregard Q. Cracker who was looking for anyone willing to make charges against any Democratic politicians in exchange for up to $5000. The money was too good to turn down, so she remembered differently.
gwangung
@different-church-lady: Well, damn, now you’ve hurt my feelings as a sketch comedian….
Mnemosyne
@gwangung:
I always remember the character in Tootsie who was notorious for forcing French kisses on his unwilling coworkers on camera until Michael/Dorothy foiled him. ?
WaterGirl
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Seer previous comment about when trying to be clever goes wrong.
WaterGirl
@geg6: The $15 million was a payout for just TWO people? If so, we absolutely need to know names.
grubert
@Amaranthine RBG:
Nice joke.
Hollywood shows us that the most beautiful women primarily become brilliant scientists, martial arts experts, sophisticated computer hackers, leading biologists, and high-flying CEOs. There are no limits.
kg
@retr2327: I think you missed the part where he forced himself on her and kissed her with tongue. It’s called assault.
WaterGirl
@germy: Ah. So this stunt with Leeann Tweeden is an attempt to prime the pump in hopes that other women will come forward? Disgraceful.
kg
@grubert:
delete your account
Gravenstone
@MarkK: Of course it was staged. The man is fucking mugging for the camera!
grubert
@kg:
Say more things.
FlipYrWhig
@FlipYrWhig: Ya know what, I wouldn’t be surprised if the nature of the photo was specifically referring back to the earlier kiss and supposed to be viewed as something like “You thought I was making you uncomfortable before? Just wait till you see what I got up to later!” I don’t know if that’s mitigating or aggravating, though.
TenguPhule
@WaterGirl: Not simply goes wrong. Goes Horribly Horribly Wrong. Like Al Franken.
/
Adrian A Lesher
The complainant is a dedicated conservative and a regular Fox commentator and Hannity guest. The photo shows what it shows, but who is to say that the additional allegations are not a tactical move to deprive the Democrats of a majority and to provide cover for Roy Moore? Beyond this, Al Franken has been the most aggressive questioner during the Putin-gate hearings. Here she is on Hannity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca2u2N8WWbM
Spider-Dan
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): I’m not even disputing her account. I’m saying that we should not discount the fact that a major factor why this story has traction in this format but would have zero traction if parties were swapped is because of our own response to it.
The media loves to “both sides” every issue, but in this case there is no “both sides” when Democrats and Republicans agree the only proper action is for the Democrat to resign.
Mnemosyne
@kg:
… during a rehearsal for a skit.
Is it always assault when an actor kisses another actor?
Mnemosyne
@grubert:
Completely random, but a friend of mine was telling me about her (adult) stepson’s wedding and how unfair it was that the bride’s female friends from JPL were uniformly smart and pretty rocket scientists. ?
wjs
If Franken steps down, then reliably Blue Minnesota’s Democratic Governor Mark Dayton appoints a talented, up and coming Democrat to the seat. There won’t be a fiasco like the last time, when Paul Wellstone died in a plane crash.
This is not the tragedy people are making it out to be. The bench is full of talent, and Franken isn’t going to starve.
EM
So I finally got to see the picture that everyone is going crazy over today. Are you freaking kidding me? In the picture, clearly Franken is not even touching her. Moreover, she’s wearing a freaking bullet proof vest over her chest so that even if was touching her there’s nothing to touch. Her chest is covered by a bulletproof vest. Not only that, a little context please. This picture was taken during the rehearsal for a comedy bit on the set of Saturday Night Live. The woman is wearing a bulletproof vest covering her chest while Franken pretends to touch her chest. He is not even touching anything. Are you all out of your mind? There is absolutely nothing wrong in this picture. Now maybe some other things will come out that will be bad for Franken. I have no idea what will come out in the future. But simply based on this picture alone, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this picture.
Just last Halloween, I was at a Halloween party wearing a football outfit and was obviously wearing a cup. 2 or 3 girls playfully grabbed my crotch. Were they harassing me? Of course not. It was a Halloween party I was dressed as a football player I was obviously wearing a cup. They weren’t touching anything. They were just kidding around, they were not harassing me. This picture is no different. In fact this picture is even less severe in the sense that Franken isn’t actually even touching anything. Leave it to Democrats to condemn a fellow Democrat for sexual harassment based upon a picture where the man is not even touching the woman who is dressed up wearing a bulletproof vest over her chest.
Keith G
In 2008, a wave election year, Landslide Al won his seat with 41.99 %. In 2014, he won with 53%. The revelation of possibly abusive behavior will eat away at his thin margin of support. I do not know enough to claim he should resign, but his staying put is not without the chance of serious costs. Can a politician who seems to be more beloved by a national audience than by his constituents survive this self-inflicted shotgun blast?
If he can’t, given a Senate with such tight margins, shouldn’t the thinking be about what’s next for a party desperately trying to put together a plan for long-term success? If what we know now turns out to be permanently accurate, Frankin would be able to keep his seat, but he will be politically neutered. He will be a vote, but little else, and most likely be, electorally speaking, among the walking dead.
kg
@Mnemosyne: Do actors always tongue kiss when rehearsing for USO skits? Stop trying to dance around it you friggen clown.
grubert
@kg:
Says the “delete your account” clown.
The “tongue” part is her story. It probably didn’t happen at all like that.