I don’t advocate political violence, I don’t think it’s constructive. But I do think Congressional Republicans should be afraid to show their face in public from now on. Not out of fear of violence but out of fear of being yelled at, mocked, spat at etc. Each and every town hall and fundraiser they attempt to hold should be turned into a circus. I went to a town hall for Tom Reed last year and everyone, including myself, was polite and courteous. We won’t be next time.
They did it to Democrats after ACA passed. We can do it to them, but harder. Same goes for Both Siders in the media, who are worse, because at least plutocracy is an ethos.
The tree of liberty grows only when watered by the tears of butthurt Republicans.
Starfish
YOU LIE!
stinger
And of course on a Friday night, when their offices won’t be open for days, so their staffers get a break before the torrent of abuse I sincerely hope is heaped upon them. They are cowards, as much as they are venal innumerate ethics-free monsters.
MoeLarryAndJesus
Henceforth Republicans should be best thought of as guillotine grease.
schrodingers_cat
And fuck NYT and PBS for giving comfort to these nihilist destroyers.
Doug!
@schrodingers_cat:
I agree.
B.B.A.
Since when did you believe in civility?
schrodingers_cat
@Doug!: Mark Shields is so useless that the RW person on the panel makes better anti-R points than him.
His jowls of concern should be fired.
bemused
I think they are more afraid of harassment from their teaparty, pro-trump constituents than the liberals in their districts but they are most afraid of their donors closing their wallets. Also can’t underestimate how far they will go to destroy SS/Medicare and anything good for regular Americans.
Another Scott
@schrodingers_cat: Stop watching, and write them and let them know why.
They will only change when it costs them in viewership and sponsorship dollars.
I haven’t watched the NewsHour in maybe 10 years. I haven’t missed it.
Life is too short to seek out non-essential aggravations. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
NJDave
@schrodingers_cat: The problem with Newshour is the age of the principals. Back in the ‘80’s they were sharp and relevant.
schrodingers_cat
@NJDave: Tamara Keith and Amy Walter are actually worse than Shields and Brooks. Its the ethos not the age that is the problem.
JMG
@NJDave: This is an across the board problem. Andrea Mitchell, Gloria Borger, John King, Chris Matthews. They’re all freakin’ older than me (I’m a senior citizen) and have been on TV since before Monica Lewinsky. Bob Schieffer seems like a nice fellow, but I can’t stand the way CBS drags him out for big news BECAUSE he’s older than the Declaration of Independence.
Baud
Fuck you, good sir.
oatler.
@MoeLarryAndJesus: I’m stealing ‘Guillotine Grease’. Should be a battle cry.
AMinNC
I agree – my friends and I have been engaging in polite phone calls, etc. Now, along with the grass-roots organizing, we are ready to do more public demonstrating (and not just at official demonstrations, like the Woman’s March and Moral Mondays). I’m ready to stand outside the houses where these guys live and let their neighbors know exactly who they live next door to. I’m ready to hang sheets from the freeway overpasses letting thousands of commuters know infrastructure spending has to go because billionaires require more money from us. Public shame and humiliation for all of them. And to the news people who are going to “both sides” us to death as well.
Baud
@JMG: And now they have George Will!
sixthdoctor
Post poll shows Jones up 3! Off to shoot him another couple of bucks, maybe he can use the thievery last night as an example of who Moore/Trump is REALLY for…
Gretchen
@JMG: tucker Carlson is young.
The Simp in the Suit
@Gretchen: No, he is youngER than the others.
His soul is a wizened nub of butt crust, of course.
gene108
We need to be loud.
Last night I was watching the USC-Stanford game on ESPN.
There was an ad praising my Rep, Tom MacArthur (R, NJ-3), for voting for the tax bill. The ad had nice white people saying how the bill will put $1200 back in the pockets of a “typical family” and it is better when we have more of our money. And we should thank Tom MacArthur for his vote.
MacArthur was the only person in the NJ Congressional delegation to vote for this bill.
The gaslighting with donor cash has already begun.
germy
@JMG:
I don’t think it’s an age issue. I’d love to see them feature Bill Moyers, for example. Or hey, bring back Phil Donahue.
It’s not the age, it’s the stupid villager smugness and detachment. As Schrodinger says, the younger commenters at the snoozehour giggle at it like it’s a big joke/game.
germy
@gene108:
yes, the deep pocket donors pay for those expensive ads. And the voters who don’t religiously study progressive blogs think “Oh, good, he voted yes.”
Arm The Homeless
I would love to see Dems get power and immediately BRAC every federal military installation into Blue states. Let’s get on with this Cold Civil War sooner rather than later. There’s gonna be a large ash-pile to clean-up, and I would like to address it before I’m too old to be a believable impediment to these fascists’ comfortable existences. Make ’em feel ya, folks
Bill Arnold
So, my immediate dark thought on reading about the (barely) Yes vote on the so-far-literally-unread tax bill (with handwritten corrections!) last night, was a comparison of the Republicans (all but one) in the Greatest Deliberative Body In the World have become, with the protagonist in a story by (the late) Sakyo Komatsu, “The Savage Mouth” (1968, translated by Judith Merril, 1978), about auto-cannibalism to completion. To spare you the reading (really, it’s a disturbing story, and not really about Republicans), here’s the choice bit that came to mind:
Irritated…
[1] Did not find an (illegal) online copy today. The translation by Judith Merril has been anthologized including in The Best Japanese Science Fiction Stories, Dembner Books, 1989 / Barricade Books, 1997
Felonius Monk
Butthurt should be only one of many hurts these assholes suffer. May their tears cause the oceans to rise.
Jeffro
Is there another 1/21 (or thereabouts) March planned?
msdc
@sixthdoctor:
Done. We need to make these fuckers pay in the only language they understand: money and votes.
wvng
I plan to Call Senator Capito once a week every week until she is out of office about this travesty.
SFAW
@schrodingers_cat:
Outstanding. Definite contender for winning today’s innertubez.
JMG
I think you will see the Roy Moore campaign duplicated by many Republicans in 2018, not in terms of message, but tactics. No debates, no public appearances open to the media, etc. Just hide and count on tribal loyalty.
Chyron HR
So now that the internal revenue code literally consists of illegible notes in the margins of a 500-page bill that no member of the US government has actually read, how do we determine what the law actually says for the purposes of 4th quarter tax planning?
I only ask here because I would get fired for doing it at work on Monday.
germy
@JMG:
or only appear at friendly venues (like churches that put up signs comparing him to Christ).
At sunset the tiercel flew above the marsh, pursuing a wisp of snipe. They drummed away down wind, like stone skidding across ice.
On the bright side, over the past couple of weeks in the lead up to this vote we as a Nation have had a really productive dialog about sexual harassment.
Aleta
Fire with fire. I’m ready to use fake news. ?
germy
@At sunset the tiercel flew above the marsh, pursuing a wisp of snipe. They drummed away down wind, like stone skidding across ice.:
Public Radio Icon John Hockenberry Accused of Harrassing Female Colleagues
germy
B.B.A.
@Aleta: We need more and better ratfuckers.
BellyCat
@schrodingers_cat: You left out NPR.
At sunset the tiercel flew above the marsh, pursuing a wisp of snipe. They drummed away down wind, like stone skidding across ice.
@germy:
Exactly.
It’s the wrong season, but it really feels like thousands of flowers are starting to bloom all across the land.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@schrodingers_cat: Don’t leave out NPR. Morning Edition this week had the following Republicans on to talk about their glorious tax bill: John Conyers, Pat Toomey, Jeff Flake, and Paul Ryan, plus a guy from American Greatness and some disgruntled Trump supporters. Not a single Democratic politician or liberal pundit was on to offer any sort of counterpoint.
germy
@At sunset the tiercel flew above the marsh, pursuing a wisp of snipe. They drummed away down wind, like stone skidding across ice.: So who’s next? Geraldo? Doocey? Hannity?
Uncle Ebeneezer
Speaking of “Civility”
https://mobile.twitter.com/Crommunist/status/936699505449222144
Jim Parish
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: John Conyers?
B.B.A.
@At sunset the tiercel flew above the marsh, pursuing a wisp of snipe. They drummed away down wind, like stone skidding across ice.: If only Congress had an HR department.
What?! I’m talking about Farenthold and Kihuen. I’m not discussing the other one anymore.
Hungry Joe
Call and response:
“Tell me what kleptocracy looks like!”
“THIS IS WHAT KLEPTOCRACY LOOKS LIKE!”
Next up: The kleptocrats merge with the theocrats.
We shall fight on the beaches,
We shall fight on the landing grounds,
We shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
We shall fight in the hills;
We shall never surrender
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Jim Parish: Cornyn.
Thoughtful David
Doing this at their public events won’t be easy. My 1st-term congressasshole the Coward Tom Garrett has held exactly two public appearances in the district since his election, and both were before small, carefully screened audiences.
We need to go stand in front of their offices in DC and let them hear what they need to hear.
B.B.A.
@germy: if Lauer and Rose are out, Stephanopoulos must be next.
SFAW
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
Cornyn, maybe?
ETA: I see you got there already.
SFAW
@BellyCat:
Isn’t NPR part of PBS? Or is it a completely separate entity?
debbie
@SFAW:
Separate.
planetpundit
Also the national Media; everyone from Couric to the Vichy Mullet himself Chuck Todd; the who Drudge loving posse.
germy
@B.B.A.:
Martin Short based his horndog character on Stephanopoulos in the “Mars Attacks” movie.
Felanius Kootea
They still have to reconcile the Senate and House versions of the tax cut bill. There is still room for opponents to make sure it doesn’t become law. I’m sure that middle and working class Republicans from Kansas have learned something from the Brownback version of the bill and the way it decimated their state. Let’s make sure those lessons are well understood nationally (using the words of Republicans who opposed the fiscal mess Brownback created).
The NYT Op-Ed opposing this travesty of a bill was quite strong. I think it lays many of the issues out clearly and will be read and understood by millions who don’t share the BJ aversion to that news source.
At sunset the tiercel flew above the marsh, pursuing a wisp of snipe. They drummed away down wind, like stone skidding across ice.
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
I tuned into the Ryan interview already in progress while I was driving to work. I don’t follow politics closely enough to know that it was Ryan just from his voice.
As Ryan repeatedly pivoted away from questions to repeat his talking points, I was thinking “Who is this hack? ….. Sounds like a junior guy at a some “free-market” think tank or something. Why can’t they get someone on who actually understands the issues?”
Very surprising to learn I’d been listening to the Speaker of the House.
Bruce K
I’m done too. I mentioned in another forum that I was worried about “the Russia thing”, and I got back a political cartoon and an explanation of how a Russian radio station that didn’t come into existence until 2017 was being investigated for interfering with the election in 2016, and how the Flynn plea was a nothingburger, and the Russia thing was just paranoia by the left, and … no. I’m through trying to argue with people who are pulling their facts out of the asses of their Mirror Universe counterparts.
raven
AkaDad
That’s probably my favorite quote this year.
Matt
@Bill Arnold:
Have to quibble on that – auto-cannibalism is entirely relevant to Republicans. Attacking universities and graduate students with the tax code is exactly the fiscal policy equivalent of scooping your own brain out and devouring it.
B.B.A.
@Felanius Kootea: The House can simply pass the Senate version, and I can’t see a good reason why they wouldn’t.
debbie
This is an interesting idea.
Raoul
This on bird-dogging Repubs seems helpful.
As they cower and refuse to hold town halls, we do need different strategies, though. Tele-townhalls are harder to disrupt.
District office protests are cathartic, but don’t generally get seen by the electeds. I think civil disobedience at fundraisers might need to become a thing. Or at the very least, paparazzi stakeouts and social media campaigns to embarrass the donor class.
K-to-the-Jane
@BellyCat: Yeah, I used to listen to NPR news everytime I got in the car. Can’t stand it anymore. Squishy, condescending, patronizing, fraidy-cat, smarmy…just plain awful. It’s like listening to a parent in the grocery store slow-talk their kid: “No, Davey-wavey, we don’t buy cookies. Do you remember mommy telling you why? When we get home we’ll have a kale chip.” I want NPR to smack me in the back of the head and say, “No! Put that crap back you little fat ass!” [I don’t condone child abuse or fat-shaming, but you get the idea hope. My metaphors are often problematic].
Mr Stagger Lee
I know you disapprove of violence, but Mitch McYertle’s face is so punchible. Please??? Please???
dm
So, can we relitigate Citizens United? With all the quotes from Republicans about how “we have to pass this bill or our donors’ wallets are closed”, we could revisit the just-because-there’s-a-lot-of-money-sloshing-around-doesn’t-mean-there’s-actual-bribery-going-on comment from Anthony Kennedy.
Raoul
@schrodingers_cat: Aren’t the only people who watch Snooze Hour as old as Mark’s jowls? But I agree. The back n forth was much better when Shields was away and EJ Dionne filled in. At this point, tho, I just don’t even watch any more.
Amir Khalid
@raven:
It sounds like the Special Counsel is scrupulous about not letting the investigation be tainted by even the merest hint of partisanship.
B.B.A.
@Amir Khalid: Too late. This is already proof that Hillary was guilty and the FBI deliberately sabotaged the investigation, yadda yadda yadda, BENGHAZI!
Raoul
@dm: So, the GOP has prepared a trapdoor, knowing that the day may come for Citizens United (not soon, alas). Enabling churches to do political speech officially (churches have skirted this for a while now, but it’ll be open season). Folks like Franklin Graham will become money laundering PAC substitutes.
This will, I believe, destroy the Christian Church in America. Something the nihilist GOP hasn’t thought about, of course. But it’ll let the filthy lucre flow, whether Citizens stands or not.
raven
@Amir Khalid: Yea but them little jack russell puke motherfuckers will be all over it.
Baud
@raven: At some point we’re going to have to learn to fight it.
laura
I’m thinking about getting back into the freeway blogging biz. Thoughts on this message?:
Now they want your social security and medicare
matt
Welcome to me last November. Guiding principle: do not feed the enemy army.
raven
@Baud: I’m down.
B.B.A.
@Baud: More and better ratfuckers.
B.B.A.
Apparently it’s totally fine for the GOP to hire Russian hackers to leak DNC emails, so why can’t we hire Ukrainian hackers to leak their emails?
Asking for a sworn enemy.
SFAW
@B.B.A.:
I call TROLL!!
EVERYONE knows it’s spelled “Benghaziiiiiiii!!!!!!1!!2!!ONE!!!!!”
Scotian
Speaking as a concerned neighbour who believes strongly in social contracts, the rule of law, and open societies, I have but one thing to say to this rather emotionally loaded post…
LONG PAST FUCKING TIME!!!!!
Raoul
@JMG:
As I’ve said before (and I’m sorry for the feelings of the many Boomers here at BJ): It is time for the Boomers to sit the fuck down and shut the hell up. From the go-go 80s to now, the boomers have run roughshod over our country like greedy, self-obsessed hyenas. Trump is the pinnacle, the absolute steaming shitpile Olympus of Boomers. Enough already.
And if Boomers can’t do that, can’t take their retirement in Sunny Acres and leave the Xers and younger to fix this goddamned mess, then for g-ds sake, speak out for your children and grandchildren. Oppose those evil fks of your generation that are ruining our country. Give generously to outfits like Run for Something, and the Democrats, and every local race you can find to care one whit about.
We are in a fight for our survival. Act like it.
I am so sick of Boomers I could fucking puke.
martian
@laura: More specific than “they”, I think:
“Billionaires want your social security and medicare”
Or
“Billionaires are coming for your Medicare”
I think Medicare is first up on the chopping block and might be where we feel the hurt first.
Edit: The name of your local Repub Congresscreature would also be a good sub for “they.”
Thoughtful David
@Raoul: I think the Church of Satan has the right idea about this kind of thing. So now, let’s form a bunch of new churches that will accept tax free donations for Democratic candidates.
As a side benefit, our new church should have as a fundamental belief that every Friday is free drinks day at the local pub. So when the local pub demands that we pay, all we have to do is yell “RELIGIOUS FREEDUMB, SUCKA!” and walk out without paying.
Omnes Omnibus
@Raoul: Paul Ryan.
Mr Stagger Lee
If and when the Democratic Party regains power, the first time some Republican who pops off about the deficit, The Democrats should fire off an 20% tax increase on the 1%, plus 5% increments of those who have more than $25 million, so say if you have a $50 million net worth you are paying 30% more(20+5+5) Soak the Rich if they scream deficits.
To arms, citizens,
Form your battalions,
Let’s march, let’s march!
Lest an impure blood
Soak our fields!
Baud
@Raoul: If you’re fighting Boomers (or if you’re a Boomer fighting Millenials), you are fighting for the right.
Karen
Can this tax bill be undone if Congress gets overwhelming opposition from GOP voters? Can lawsuits help?
Raoul
@Felanius Kootea: The more rural of the two Kansas members of the Senate did a western swing though his state this summer. He got an earful from his farmer/rancher constituents about what is wrong with healthcare, etc. He has had a front row seat to the Brownback debacle.
He voted for the tax scam last night anyway.
There is no analysis, not even any constituent input that matters to these fvks. Doug! is correct. Civility and process are done for. I hate this, but the only answer to raw power politics on the right appears to be raw power politics on the left.
It is a dangerous road. I am loathe to want to go there. Anyone got other ideas? Really, I would love to have options besides full frontal smash-mouth politics. But we are in a post-fact, post-rational phase. Two wrongs don’t make a right, but I feel like we are in the cold war set-up for the second American civil war.
J R in WV
Wow.
John Hockenberry turns out to be a bully, forcing out the African-American and other minorities brought in a co-hosts, on a show supposed to be partly about bringing more diversity to the airwaves.
Also a sexual predator, which seemed more perverse than usual until you learn that he has a wife and 4 or 5 kids. WNYU executives should have a lot of explaining to do, but probably won’t.
We have donated substantial amounts to local public broadcasting, which has gradually done away with 90% of the things we liked to listen to. Eventually I will lose my patience and stop supporting sounds I won’t be listening to.
They also don’t inform their supporters of anything except programming issues. Finances, other than GIVE MORE, are never mentioned. What is to be done with the funds raised? Nada. And we’re donating enough to be in what they call the “Studio Society”… which means we get extra high-level begging letters. Not more information, not invited to participate in decision making, Nada. Just more begging.
Baud
@Karen: Any tax bill can be undone in the same way it was done.
raven
@Raoul: Hey Raoul, fuck you.
Raoul
@Baud: I’m gonna need some help understanding this point.
Scotian
I hope my preceding comment was not too civil, polite, and understated for the audience, we Canadians have a problem with that sort of thing…:).
But seriously, way past due. The single biggest tool the right used against the center and left was their unwillingness to fight but to reason instead, which is why back in the 90s Gingrich and company once they took the House with their Contract For (On!) America that they came up with the saying that compromise is another word for date rape. When one side, especially the side that just gains power, thinks like that, and the other tries to understand them, reason with them, well we see where that ends up, and for the record to any Berners reading this, Bernie was one of their best tools last year, so don’t be feeling too smug, when you fight you first need to aim at the correct fucking target!!!
I have watched in horror for decades now as a nation that was committed to the rule of law, open societies, and the ideals they represent turning inwards towards a theofacist run government (aka GOPers) where the party of the right has spent over a quarter decade working to destroy the neutrality of courts and turn them into partisan litmus tests and places to enact political agendas that cannot get enough votes openly, because they are the very last bastion of impartiality and neutrality left, and that is unacceptable for the modern NA right it seems.. I have been increasingly PISSED at progressives and centrists for not seeing and stopping this much sooner, and then to watch the purer than thous on the left place their moral righteousness ahead of such basic civic survival issues, well lets us just say they rather irk me and let it go at that. Calling them hypocrites and enablers is far too good for them IMHO. BTW, my first rage for that purer than thou rap was 2000, my patience and tolerance for it has gotten far diminished from that already microscopic level from then.
So yes, please, stop being civil, fight back, and show the true meaning of the silent majority isn’t the crazy right, but the centrist middle/left/progressives and those few remaining true centrist conservatives (which is everywhere between far right and left these days, the extremes are better defined than the middle even more so than usual thanks to this decades long polarization campaign). There is more than just your nation riding on it!
germy
@Raoul:
Right. All those boomers marching with their white polo shirts and tiki torches. All those boomers on redddit and breitfart. And don’t forget the boomer who drove his car into a crowd in Charlottesville and killed that woman. And how old is Dylan Roof again? 65 or 66? All those “alt-right” guys online, they’re all old guys.
msdc
@Thoughtful David: Even better, stand in front of their district offices, where other constituents will see you (and see him blowing you off) and local media will cover you.
Baud
@Raoul: You are choosing to fight the wrong enemy, which hurts our cause and advances the right wing agenda. You are an enabler.
Raoul
@J R in WV: I have had more than a few screaming-at-my-dashboard moments listening to John Hockenberry. He’s been an incredible lightweight in covering Republicans. One of the reasons I struggle to donate to NPR.
Raoul
@Baud: Aha. Well, I suppose I am using generational language as an inappropriate stand in for older people who, on average, vote heavily Republican and are fucking this country over really, really badly.
And I resent being called an enabler. You can believe that my use of that generational frame is enabling, and help find ways to reframe so that I fight the good fight. Or you can be rude. Got it.
debbie
@Baud:
I agree. Daily bitching about the jowls of anyone advances our cause no further. I still like my idea (see above), which when combined with ceaseless phoning/faxing/emailing and marches, will be a fuckload more productive.
debbie
@Raoul:
Got any stats to back that up?
Baud
@Raoul: You would be more accurate in saying white people or rural people make you want to puke. But even those are flawed proxies. What’s wrong with calling out GOP voters directly?
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@JMG:
Perhaps, but let’s be honest–how many Republicans are as charismatic as leathery ol’ Roy?//
LurkerNoLonger
@sixthdoctor: Good news!
oldgold
If the Democrats want to play hardball, they need to stop braying about “collusion” and “obstruction of justice,” and start using the word “treason.”
“Treason” is defined in the Constitution at Article 3, Section 3:
“Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.“
That word cuts right to heart of the matter.
debbie
https://img.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2017/04/ZIEGLER-newyorker-boardroom.jpg
d58826
Ah Der Fuhrer is back on twitter
Matthew Miller Retweeted Donald J. Trump
Oh my god, he just admitted to obstruction of justice. If Trump knew Flynn lied to the FBI when he asked Comey to let it go, then there is your case.
Matthew Miller added,0
Donald J. TrumpVerified account @realDonaldTrump
I had to fire General Flynn because he lied to the Vice President and the FBI. He has pled guilty to those lies. It is a shame because his actions during the transition were lawful. There was nothing to hide!
9:24 AM – 2 Dec 2017
https://twitter.com/matthewamiller/status/937009631662104578
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@oldgold: Winner.
CaseyL
No one knows what all is in the bill, since they crammed it full of crap. Any chance something in it can get the whole thing challenged in court?
Raoul
@debbie: CNN exit poll
age clinton trump other/no answer
18-29 55% 36% 9%
(19% of voters)
30-44 51% 41% 8%
(25%)
45-64 44% 52% 4%
(40%)
65 + 45% 52% 3%
(16%)
Boomers were (very) roughly half of the 45-64 cohort, and most of the 65+ (some greatest gen & silent gen in there). 8% swing for Trump in the over 45s, and 7% swing for Trump in the 65+ is, perhaps, debatable as to ‘overwhelming’ but wins of that percent are usually seen as significant in races.
And, my apologies for my bitterness today. Indeed I hate Republicans, and am lashing out in ways that are unhelpful. Older and whiter voters are still fucking this country up, tho.
debbie
@Baud:
I know Raoul is younger than I, but I can remember how angry I was when I was young. Of course, it was easy to be angry and frustrated back then, what with Nixon, Vietnam, etc. But my anger remained solely on those actually responsible for the policies that were making me so angry.
debbie
@Raoul:
There’s not enough information there, but no one should be happy with those low turnouts.
d58826
@Raoul:
seems like a lopt of that going around
MJS
@oldgold: Completely agree. Let’s move this discussion to treason, and the appropriate punishment for treason. Then when there’s pushback, removal from office becomes the negotiated result, not our ideal, as is currently the case.
gene108
@Raoul:
We are in the beginning of a cold civil war. It started when Republicans decided to oppose Obama at every turn, from Congress to governors refusing to take Federal money for infrastructure.
We need to wipe out all right wing infrastructure. Fox News, right-wing churches, etc and the Republican Party, so that they will never feel like doing this again.
chopper
@B.B.A.:
the DACA stuff that was added may be a non-starter with the house. likely they’ll work out something in committee stripping the stuff Flake and Collins got added and the brave maverick republicans in the senate will just roll over and vote for it.
hell, there’s a good chance that the final bill that ends up on orangemandias’s desk will be even worse than the one the house passed. these guys are like the inquisition.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@Raoul: I was agreeing with you about boomers needing to get out of the way. Then you went off the rails with insults, so fuck you.
Emma
I have a silly idea. Make up flyers quoting some of the numbers that have been released by the different studies. For example:
Under the Republican tax plan, if you earn between 25,000 and 40,000 a year you will pay % more in 2019, %2 more in 2020 (as many numbers as will fit). Your parents stand to lose x% of their medicare. Your children’s college costs will soar (numbers if possible)
Senator Rubio voted for this?
WHY?
And distribute them right in front of their offices.
Eljai
@Baud: #NotAllBoomers?
B.B.A.
@gene108: I’d say it started with Brown v. Board, when a handful of whites finally decided to listen to Black people and challenge the slaveholders’ victory in all but name of the first Civil War. Since then it’s been building very gradually, and then all at once.
Raoul
@d58826: It’s unhelpful, and I will shake it off and work to kick Repub ass. Starting Sunday.
Today I am in party planning freakout – my annual Bday celebration is tonight (actual bday coming on Thursday) and I am having some annoying health issues that are making me crabby. Tonight, fun. Tomorrow, back to the work of fixing a broken world.
Raoul
@gene108: Yup. Though the item in the tax bill enabling right wing churches to do direct politics doesn’t bode well in the short term (and progressive religious groups could also play, but I’m not sure that’s a good tactic – we’ll have to see how dirty the cold war gets).
James E. Powell
@Raoul:
You are being unhelpful, as you admit, and you are also being tiresome. The generation-based arguments have yet to produce anything useful for winning elections.
And another thing. This “Boomer” label gets applied to people born from 1946-1964, with some variations. That time span is far too wide to be the basis for generalizations. Just imagine the differences like “impact of TV during the first eight years of life” for one really big example.
Raoul
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): Yeah, I got out of hand. I am sorry for my anger. I will re-channel it.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@Raoul: Graciously said. I personally am so angry that my poor husband has to back away some times.
Paula
@AMinNC: Yes!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
It’s not we shouldn’t be polite, it’s we shouldn’t be to polite to attack our opponents position. Crud, even Abraham Lincoln, Mr Empathy himself, wasn’t above mocking positions and ideas. He just wouldn’t be personal about it. Somewhere along the way with High Broderism everyone got convinced that every idea is precious, no matter how stupid, shortsighted or vile, and it’s beyond the pale to critic.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
FWIW, polls show the AL senate race ticking back to even, even a slight edge to Jones
iif Jones wins a few days after this mess passes, it would be quite a silver lining
germy
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Baud:
And when did you (rhetorical you) become an asshole for pointing out that not everyone in Tennessee is a moron, that some men are actually genuinely and effectively feminist?
Point such things out, and someone will give you an emoji eye roll and throw some #NotAllMen shade.
Ksmiami
@matt: starve them, mangle them and leave their disjointed remains on barbed wire fences for ppl to point at and birds to feast on. death to the gop
Raoul
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): Thank you for the reflection of grace.
My own anger flips with sadness (thankfully not despair). I am struggling to get ready for a party tonight. Nearly in tears as I say this.
I’ve celebrated my December birthday the first Sat of the month for the last 14 years with a big Swedish smorgasboard in honor of my long-departed mom (who was raised by honest-to-god actual Swedish soshulist parents).
It feels hard to leave the house to shop after the beating we’ve been taking politically this year. But an army moves on it’s stomach, as it is said. Time to prepare and feed the liberal hordes!
gene108
@B.B.A.:
The South didn’t win the Civil War. If it did the issue of where a black girl went to school would be irrelevant because blacks would still have been barred from getting an education.
But yeah, there’s been a fight since the Brown, but it is really out in the open now like it never was before.
There may have been hard disagreements on segregation, but the Senate could still come together and ratify a nuclear arms reduction treaty with the Soviets or vote to fund NASA to put a man on the moon.
d58826
@Baud: As one of the leading edge boomers (1946) I agree that we screwed things up as a broad generalization. What I still scratch my head over is all of those 1965-1970 rebel boomers who were going to change the world for the better. We weren’t going to be money grubbers like previous generations (even though we were quite happy to live off of the Bank of Mom). We weren’t going to learn war no more.
We seem to have gotten side tracked a bit. The country is still a better place than it was in 1964 but with a few relatively painless changes we could have done more.
FlipYrWhig
@James E. Powell:
Oh sure, next you’ll probably be saying the same thing about astrology. ;(
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I would add, he just admitted it for the second time
germy
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@Raoul: Happy birthday! Celebrate with your friends and family. Small happinesses are what we need.
d58826
@germy: Weird value structure. Better to be convicted of obstruction than to have the world know you are not a billionaire. :-)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy: @d58826: I believe one of our commenters is a defense lawyer with some experience in financial crimes in Manhattan. LAO? I wonder how much evidence of money laundering would be necessary for Schneiderman to launch an investigation into the trump group or whatever the hell he calls his collection of pass-throughs.
Davebo
https://twitter.com/mflynnJR/status/936691163624624128
germy
Doug R
@Baud: Should be fairly easy to pass a tax bill fixing what’s wrong with this one, plus a few green tweaks in February 2019.
Looks like Ipsos had an outlier just before Thanksgiving, they’re now back in the plus 8 or 9 generic Democrat fold, soon to improve when news of this bill gets out.
B.B.A.
@d58826: “Obstruction of justice” is a fake crime. Only losers think you can go to jail for it. SAD!
d58826
@B.B.A.: well we can send him to a fake prison. Alcatraz is nice this time of year.
d58826
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Isn’t he already poking around in some of Trump Org affairs, esp. the fake foundation?
Jim Parish
@B.B.A.: I recall reading that Brown was the culmination of a series of decisions chipping away at the “separate but equal” formulation throughout the ’40s and into the ’50s. It wasn’t a sudden turnaround, but a gradual admission that “separate but equal” was, in fact, unattainable. (Ref: The Color-Blind Constitution, by Andrew Kull – a fascinating, if somewhat disheartening, book, by the way.)
Kathleen
@Scotian: Brilliant! I totally share your sentiments.
Doug R
@debbie:
Behind Trump’s victory: Divisions by race, gender, education
cynthia ackerman
If it makes anyone feel better, I saw Rep. Greg Walden in a grocery store last Sunday in an uncharacteristic incognito mode.
I see him there frequently, always in a blue blazer, relaxed, and happy to chat with people who recognize him.
On Sunday, he wore a down jacket zipped tight with the collar up and an “Oregon” baseball cap worn low, and keeping his gaze down by his shoes, visibly in a hurry and casting sidelong glances.
germy
@cynthia ackerman: They know what they did.
Kathleen
@B.B.A.: Technically I think it started shortly after New Deal programs were passed and the generals and industrialists wanted FDR out and attempted a coup using popular general Smedley Butler, who blew the whistle.
ETA: The Civil Rights movement helped to accelerate the Thugs’ determination to destroy all government and its programs.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Current reality – you would struggle to reach 51 Republican Senate votes to re-ratify the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments, and I doubt that they’d get through the GOP House. On top of that, Trump would probably oppose them.
The 16th would definitely not pass.
I wouldn’t shed tears if, say, somebody or some group of somebodies chose to round up Peter Thiel, Pete Peterson, the Koch Brothers, Steve Wynn, Shelly Adelson, Wayne LaPierre and about three generations of each of their families in order to beat them to death with baseball bats. Same for Chuck Todd, Andrea Mitchell, Mark Halperin, John King, Maggie Haberman, Dean Baquet and Wolf Blitzer.
The conservative pols of the House and Senate could experience an Inglourious Basterds finale, and the only emotion I’d experience would be amusement and relief.
germy
germy
BellyCat
@K-to-the-Jane: I, too, was once an avid listener and financial supporter (same for FTFNYT).
I finally got my head out of my ass.
I’m currently more ambivalent about PBS since I don’t rely on them much (at all?) for political commentary, but use them (a little) largely for educational children’s content — but am keeping a closer eye these days on them, too, lest my toddler run the risk of growing up to be a raging Republican selfish and illogical asshole.
Redshift
@Doug R:
I don’t think that proves what you say it does. That article has one mention of older voters, and the partisan divide on nearly every other measure they describe is bigger than for older voters.
BellyCat
@Raoul:
Response from Boomers:
“Hey, did you all just hear something? I coulda sworn I just heard something. Oh well… OK, where were we?”
Draco7
@Raoul: Other ideas other than power politics? Nope, but power can be expressed in different ways. Whether liberals (yes, I’m going to own that label) realize it or not they control a great deal of the power via money. In aggregate, there is adequate cash flow to swing not only elections but the media context. The news media are owned by corporations, so by default they will swing between “safe” news and RW-skewed – either by selective coverage or non-coverage. Being corporations, they are also sensitive to the bottom line – so for them, lots of input regarding why you are no longer watching their shows will have some impact.
Having said that, I’m starving for some decent news sources in the U.S.. I end up going to BBC News to get some context. There are a lot of first rate unemployed journalists out there – what could crowdfunding accomplish? It might have to be Steyer – Hanauer level crowdfunding, but I can’t see why it is not achievable. Actually the same goes for retail – the majority of consumers are against the current railroading, and again, that’s a lot of $ in aggregrate. My suggestion is to actively locate, promote, and support businesses who do not support RWNJs. I got boxed into thinking about this while remodeling – I learned that the big box store I was buying most of my stuff from was owned by avid Trump supporters, and I could no longer bear to give them my money to use against me. There are a lot of other options in power politics besides violence – this is just one of them.
Hellbastard
Has anyone done the math adding up the state populations represented by the senators voting for the bill vs. those voting against?
SFAW
@d58826:
I was thinking more along the lines of Lubyanka.
debbie
@Doug R:
Thanks. I figured it was more of a gender thing.
Jeffro
Btw folks the orange idiot just tweeted that he knew Flynn lied to theFBI…and then asked Comey to drop the investigation anyway(!)
Redshift
But I think the more important point (acknowledging that Raoul has already said that he was lashing out in anger) is that wishing for any group to go away is about as useful as wishing for a pony. No one is going to go away unless we force them out. And while this tax atrocity is a terrible loss (if they actually get it through conference), we were doomed to have some terrible losses the moment they won, and we’ve had fewer than we might have expected. Fighting of these bills is important, but the only solid victory is voting them out, so stay focused on that and try not to get discouraged.
MattF
I don’t believe polls any more, but I do look at them– and the current daily Gallup poll has some interest. One can make various chart-reading observations, but other than ‘goes up and down a lot’ I’d hold off a few days.
Ruckus
@germy:
This.
We need to let the house know that both tax bills are bad, horrible pieces of shit.
Remember that every house member is up for election in 11 months. Remind them of this every week. Remind them that Doug Jones is ahead/winning. In AL. This can happen to them. They can be replaced. They will be replaced. Remind them they ran for a position to work for all of us, not their donors. Remind them they actually took an oath to do that. Remind them that we vote.
John Revolta
@Hellbastard: Like I’m not nauseous enough already.
Lapassionara
I want a billboard for every congressional rep who votes for this saying “Congress person x voted to cut $25 billion from Medicare”
patrick II
@sixthdoctor:
No other issue maddens/frustrates me as much as abortion. It is used as a cover for racism, it has a righteousness to it (we can’t kill babies!) and an religious authority that make it impervious to arguments to believers, is an excuse to appoint Supreme Court Justices that still live in the gilded age, and it has been the issue that has allowed the right to hide behind for votes for people like Moore.
debbie
@MattF:
Thirty three is a good number.
Redshift
And to help with fighting despair, I give you this map of the change in voter turnout in Virginia this year compared to for years ago:
https://www.vpap.org/visuals/visual/voter-turnout-locality
germy
@Ruckus:
All excellent points.
I’ve been calling, and I’m grateful for many of the suggestions I’ve been seeing here over the past few months.
d58826
@SFAW: And Vlad could stop by every so often for a little visit. Much better idea
bemused
@Davebo:
I guess it’s better late than never for Flynn Jr to think of his family. Too bad he didn’t realize a lot sooner the consequences of his idiot actions on his family. I won’t hold my breath waiting for him or daddy to acknowledge he committed treason on our country.
Baud
@Davebo:
Fixed.
Ellen R
@Raoul: Raoul – The Boomers were the 60s. Everything the left in the 60s warned about has come to pass. We fought these battles and lost, but many of us are still here. We were defeated by the people who survived the Depression and WWII and failed to learn the lessons they should have from those bad times. So here we are, 50 years later, same old battles. But we’re still fighting. Time for millennial to join us.
raven
@Ellen R: Bah, who says we lost? “It’s too soon to tell”.
Emerald
@Raoul:
That over-65 statistic includes abundant oldies who are not boomers. It includes folks in their 70s and 80s, lots of ’em.
I’m smack in the middle of the Boomers, and I’m both an Obana-and Hillary-bot. And almost all my friends are too.
Too broad a brush there, Raoul!
Spanky
@Raoul:
That’s because you’re not too bright.
Or maybe just trollin’.
schrodingers_cat
@debbie: I believe that is a barb directed at me, because I complained a few times (not daily) about Mark Shields. I am not a fan of Shields because of what he says not because of how old he is. His jowls are the first thing I notice about him before he opens his mouth to blame the Ds and give some both sidery “analysis”. Like it or not that is his most prominent feature. If that gives you a sad, feel free to ignore my comments.
Another Scott
@Hellbastard: DeLong has some related numbers:
The comments are interesting, also too.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ruckus
@Raoul:
It isn’t that you are wrong about a lot of boomers. They do vote republican, they did vote for drumpf.
However. What is wrong is that you lumped us all together by age. We didn’t all vote for drumpf, we aren’t all republicans, some of us hate them as much as you do. A number of boomers are black and the vast majority of them did/do not vote republican.
What you did was known as bigotry. It isn’t any different from racial or sexist or any other bigotry. That’s why it’s wrong.
Now on the other hand….. I, as a boomer, especially being on the older end of that completely arbitrary grouping, do understand. The world has turned from the natural progression of younger people getting a chance into one of people living longer and healthier, so they hang on to careers longer, they annoy the young longer. The average lifespan has gone up quite a bit since I was born, and there are more younger folks who want to rightfully get on with life and be in charge of their futures. But a lot of us have futures as well, even as an older boomer I could live another 25 yrs. I’d like my life to be as reasonable as you want yours to be.
Most of us want the same things as you, a decent life, not to be shoved off into oblivion because we are old, or young.
Hellbastard
DId the math myself. Based on official Census Bureau estimates of 2016 populations:
Senators voting for the tax bill represent: 140,776,049 people.
Senators voting against the tax bill represent: 181,670,294 people.
In other words, about 44% of the population determining tax policy for the other 56%.
Note: for states where the senators split on the vote, I assigned half of the pop value to each column.
schrodingers_cat
@Hellbastard: No taxation without representation, should be our chant.
schrodingers_cat
@Hellbastard: How about the tax receipts state wise, what’s that break up like?
Tehanu
@SFAW:
The basement of the Lubyanka. That’s where they did the gangster-style executions.
@Ruckus:
Thanks. I tried to make this same point on another blog and got sneered at, because (according to the sneerers) it’s OK to generalize about the “powerful” (Boomers) but not about the “oppressed” (Millenials). You made my point much more clearly than I did.
Ruckus
@Draco7:
The only issue with rejecting media companies for their content is that they then gravitate to the customers they have. All companies do this to some extent when they get boycotted but media companies have a product that is not sold to the viewers, only presented. It’s the paying customers they listen to most, their sponsors. If you don’t like a show, let the sponsors know. Boycott the sponsors. That will hurt the media companies worse and far faster than you not watching.
Newspapers are a bit different. As long as the publisher makes enough to stay in business they will print whatever they want. They don’t really care if you use the paper for fishwrap or for box stuffing as long as someone pays for it in the first place.
Raoul
@debbie: The percentages look to me like the distribution, not the turnout percentages. Would have to dig into the registered size of each cohort to know how that translates. No doubt younger potential voters do turn out at lower rates, and that’s something I dearly hope all progressives can agree is worth investing in.
Citizen Alan
It is wrong to blame the entire baby boomer age cohort for the sins of a mere plurality of them. That said, I have said repeatedly that nothing in America is really going to improve until everyone who graduated from a segregated whites only School and is bitter that their children and grandchildren didn’t have the same luxury is dead and rotting in hell.
raven
GO DAWGS!!!!!!
Another Scott
@Tehanu: Relatedly – There’s a (possibly apocryphal) story about some convention of a group like the SDS or something in the ’60s. Supposedly there was a motion that said minor children of the overclass perpetuate the overclass so they should be exterminated.
:-/
Denigrating groups, especially groups based on immutable characteristics (age, gender, color, parents, etc.), is a bad idea.
Cheers,
Scott.
Raoul
@Ruckus: Yup. I went overboard, and so I apologized upthread. A reminder to me (and not just me) that even as I work to undo bigotries in myself and the larger culture, they don’t just all vanish with ease.
There are a lot of complex generational issues at play. One is that as people can stay in the workforce longer (and many have to, as SSI age moves up, or they never quite made back the 2008 hole blown in their 401k’s), the promotion ladder gets longer and slower. It may not be the lead driver in income stratification, but it contributes.
There is also a sense of frustration that college was definitely more affordable for post-wwII generations. My college tuition rate doubled in the 4.5 years I attended. I don’t think boomers had anything remotely like that. And I graduated a while ago! College costs have climbed inexorably since. And now this new tax bill makes things noticeably worse.
On and on.
I really feel like we are at a crucial moment. I had a couple bad hours this morning but am reminded of where to aim my ire. Let’s go get the GOP scoundrels.
Bill Arnold
@Raoul:
[edit – see your comment at #189 largely addresses this. leaving comment for the other points it makes.]
Seriously? Not trolling? You need to pick your target(s) carefully. Is it the Republican party? Is it that subset of the population that actually votes for candidates of the Republican party?
Meanwhile the Republicans (the Russians, even; their propaganda mills are relentless) are stoking up these broad-stroke misdirected antipathies between subsets of Americans that are not actual voting blocks, just (mostly) vaguely correlated, then picking off millions of normally Democratic voters who believe the nonsense (which isn’t even consistent nonsense). E.g. white working class people (ok often biggots) who would otherwise vote for Democrats because it’s in their best (and selfish) interest, but then believe the lies, and vote Republican, or don’t vote, or vote third party. Yes, there’s also some stoked-up encouragement to vote for third parties in winner-takes-all elections. Sorry but it’s true and kinda obvious if you watch social media. Winner-takes-all sucks but it’s a fact where it exists.
The Republicans have spent decades building an epistemological bubble (Fox News, etc) for their voters which (they believe) differentially advantages them when this sort of tactic of division is applied. That is, they believe that if divisions are stoked up they will gain electorally. [Honesty note: I don’t have evidence for this paragraph, just hunches.]
Don’t fall for it. Focus on Republicans. I.e. division works on them too, though one needs to wade into the fever swamps to help them along. And some of their voters can be turned. And more to the point, work on building inclusive communities, and rejecting division.
Hellbastard
Tax receipts? Source:
https://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/federal_revenue_by_state.php
Senators that voted for the tax bill represent voters that contribute $1,207,000,000 to federal revenue
Senators that voted against the tax bill represent voters that contribute $2,051,000,000 to federal revenue.
In other words, senators representing people who contribute about 37% of the federal income determining tax policy for those who contribute the remaining 63%.
James E. Powell
@Citizen Alan:
But schools are equally or even more segregated now than they were before 1970.
ETA – Link that I left off of original post and now don’t know how to do properly
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/05/17/gao-study-segregation-worsening-us-schools/84508438/
Jeffro
Intermission here at MEAN GIRLS – y’all be sure to see this when it hits Broadway!
Hey I understand the Prez just outed his knowledge of a felony, and did nothing. How about that?
Mary G
@Ruckus: Thanks for this. Demonizing people is a Hitler and Trump thing. I watched with horror as a lot of my cohort went from peace and love hippies to money worshipping Reagan Republican assholes, but not me and not the vast majority of my friends.
I have lost the safe feeling I had during the Obama administration. Last night I dreamed of being attacked and robbed and raped so vividly I woke up crying. It’s been years since that happened. I hate it.
Steve in the ATL
@Draco7:
I try to live my values as well (sayonara, Chik-Fil-A), but home improvement is a tough field with Home Depot, Lowe’s, and Menard’s all owned/founded/run by right wing assholes. i have found Lowe’s to be the least bad alternative.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Well, he didn’t do “nothing”. He tried to get the FBI to stop investigating the felony. There’s a legal term for it, I think
Doug R
@patrick II: I’m thinking an undercurrent and possibly a wedge is that god botherers are treating pregnant women as property. I think we should be framing it as “Do you own her uterus? No? Then It’s non of OUR business.
Ruckus
@Spanky:
@Tehanu:
Many of us are speaking out in anger and frustration. (see my comment at the end, a couple posts down!) That’s OK we should be angry and frustrated, we’ve just been collectively fucked by a bunch of pampered assholes. But that only gets us so far, like maybe through till Tuesday. What we need is to do is codify our anger into a plan of action. Not a violent plan, a workable plan, within the system. The system does work, we just haven’t been working it hard enough. republicans have been working it, shamelessly, bullshittingly, pig headed and for all the wrong reasons and in all the wrong ways, because they know they can not win with the truth. Right now we are 2 steps back, one forward, we need to change that.
My proposal:
1. Who sponsors all the newscasts you think are doing a shitty job? Make lists. To the best of our needs, lets boycott all those sponsors.
2. Call, call, call, call your reps/senators/any one else you can think of. Flood them with calls, faxes, emails, if you can and if you are so inclined picket their offices. Do it properly, don’t get obscene – be direct, thank them for listening, remind them you vote.
3. Call those media outlets whose sponsors you are boycotting and let them know that their slanted “news” is why. Let them know that you can do this for a very long time. Let them know that you aren’t the only one boycotting their sponsors. You have friends, all of your friends have friends. Let them know directly that their bullshit is costing them money.
That’s a start.
schrodingers_cat
@Hellbastard: Highway robbery by Rs.
P.S. Thanks for crunching the numbers.
Davebo
@Another Scott: How do they calculate that in states with a senator from each party?
PJ
@d58826: I wasn’t around for the heyday of the hippie movement, but my theory is that, of all the social movements or trends working their way through society then – civil rights, gay rights, feminism, environmentalism, freedom of speech and attire, free love, drugs, rock and roll, etc. – what young (and not so young) white Americans really latched onto were the sex and drugs. Prior to the 1960s, hedonism had been a lifestyle for mostly artists and the wealthy, because most people simply couldn’t afford it economically or socially. But in the 1970s, everybody could do what they wanted to, man, and mostly what they wanted to do was please themselves, without much thought for social responsibility, which by the late 1970s had congealed into sheer materialism and “I got mine, fuck you”, which paved the way for Reagan and the Republican destruction of the country which we are seeing (hopefully) the tail end of now. The other strand of this is that there were a lot of hippies who were genuinely lost and searching for answers, and were terrified when they realized there were none, or that there would be a real social and economic cost to them personally to pursue them, so that they were easy pickings for fundamentalist evangelicals who had a simple answer for everything while assuring them that it was a-ok to be selfish and get rich.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@Raoul: As I age, I find myself worrying about the safety net for me and even more for my son’s generation. The worst part is that my worry aggravates my selfish side, and it’s people giving in to their fear and resulting selfishness that landed us in this situation.
Raoul
@Draco7: Thank you. One of many problem points that I think progressive consumers could push on is the whole Chamber of Commerce machinery. The local Minneapolis Chamber is (moderately, on some issues) to the left of state and certainly national Chambers. But they all pay their dues and the further away from blue cities the business money gets, the more reactionary and right wing the Chamber system gets.
We — all of us — need to start having real talk with locally owned businesses (and even big business, if it has a local presence) to say that the Chamber’s legislative priorities have to change. We scored some wins opposing ALEC. But they aren’t gone, and the national Chamber plays an ALEC-like roll to push a GOP agenda. As a consumer, I find that unacceptable. But I don’t make much noise about it.
Another Scott
@Raoul:
Hahahah. Good one.
I’m a Boomer.
U of Chicago tuition (just tuition) was $1500 a quarter in the fall of 1979. It was around double that in the spring of 1983 (but I don’t recall the exact number).
Yes, college is ungodly expensive now. But skyrocketing tuition isn’t something new, and it isn’t something that many, many boomers are not intimately familiar with – either as students or as trying to pay for their kids’ costs, or both. It started in the late 1970s and had lots of causes (including high inflation that caused states and the federal government to cut back on college funding).
Stop using such a broad brush, please.
Cheers,
Scott.
SFAW
@Davebo:
It depends on the state. In most states, they split it. In West Virginia, however, they’re assumed all to be RWNJs.
[Waves at Cole and J R]
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Is this the rare non-lyric-titled DougJ post?
Gelfling 545
@Raoul: oh, excellent. I’m sure you’d have no problem winning elections without us. I didn’t realize that the right to participate in our political affairs had an age limit. Yes, just alienate us old people from the Democratic cause while Republican old folks turn out in droves. Winning plan.
Bill Arnold
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
My first impression on reading that tweet was that he mis-recalled the details about firing Flynn. From the reporting at the time, e.g. White House: President Trump Fired Michael Flynn there was no mention of lying to the FBI (a felony), just lying to Pence:
So he could go with a dementia-related-memory-failure defense.
Gelfling 545
@raven: I respectfully request to be permitted to associate myself with this sentiment. With knobs on!
Another Scott
@Davebo: Don’t know for sure – the quote is the extent of the information. Presumably he/they just cut the state population in half.
Cheers,
Scott.
Cheryl Rofer
@PJ: As someone who was there, I divide the sixties into two parts. The first was the civil rights movement and related issues, like feminism, that came into view for similar reasons. The people working on those issues were committed and effective. There was an element of counterculture about them, as there must be to challenge ingrained assumptions. The Vietnam War was incredibly divisive in many ways beyond the obvious for and against. The draft was to young people what student loans are now, except it introduced the chance of death as well. One reaction to it was to opt out into drugs and hippiedom. That was only one strain of what was happening, but the war and resistance to it became so overwhelming that other social issues were left behind.
The sixties and hippies have been conflated, but the hippies were only one group of people, and they were a product of the later sixties, not the drivers of the social movements. The seventies continued the split between those for and those against the war. I would suggest that it was the former who took the “I got mine” approach, although, as always happens, some radicals deradicalized into bourgeousie.
Some of us were dismayed to see the country lose the thread of social progress that had begun the sixties, but the war and reaction to it were really overwhelming. Being sent to Vietnam to fight and die or be disabled was something that affected everyone of draft age. Everyone. Very different from today’s volunteer army, where it is easy to forget we’re fighting wars. And that was Nixon’s intent in moving to a volunteer army.
SFAW
@Raoul:
My experience was similar to Scott’s, re: tuition doubling, and that was in the 1970s.
And here we had such high hopes for you after your gracious response to DAW (formerly IOL).
We’ll have to start generalizing about your generation, too, I guess, to show you how fucking stupid your generalizing looks/is. Or, as Shakespeare or someone else said: “grow the fuck up.”
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
When we moved to Iowa 20 years ago, I was impressed by how low the state university tuition was. The state historically believed in education. Then the recession hit and the legislature cut funding and tuition went up by double digit percentages several years in a row. It may have been too low to start with, but it increased at a staggering rate just to compensate for the cuts.
It’s hard for me to make comparisons across states and eras, but our college students took it on the chin. I understand the dilemma for the state. Should the guy working at the corner gas station pay taxes for an education that will lead to increased wages? Or should the students borrow against a future? Part of the problem is that the future hasn’t materialized in the way students hoped it would. They get jobs but salaries are low and pensions and health insurance have gone away.
tobie
@Hellbastard: This breakdown reminds me that all the counties Trump won contribute 36% to the GDP. All the counties Clinton won make up 64% of the GDP. No matter how you slice it, blue states fund red states, and blue counties fund red counties.
PJ
@Ellen R: The people who survived the Depression and WWII brought us Social Security, civil rights legislation, medicare/medicaid, environmental regulation, etc. Given that the Baby Boomers were no older than, say, 20, in 1965, I doubt they had much of a hand in most of those laws (perhaps some in the Clean Air and Water Acts.)
SFAW
@raven:
Old fart. Do they let you still vote? [Also, SHOULD I TYPE LOUDER?]
Ruckus
@Raoul:
Hey I feel for you. I’m early boomer, I had $200 to my name in early 2012 as I had to use up all my retirement fund just to try and hang on. I lived in a room on the back of a friends property for a year (thank you once again my friend, more than you might ever know) I still have to work for a while, to try and build up a bit of a bank balance because I’ve got SS and even better the VA for my healthcare. Of course republican assfuckingholes want to take that away from me.
Now on to everyone.
College is far, far more expensive than it needs to be. That is by design, so that only the rich can afford it. That leaves everyone else in debt……. to whom?
Many will never be able to afford to purchase a house. And that was a huge thing for those coming home from WWII, a new house and a job that had a future and paid OK.
Small businesses don’t seem to be able to survive like they used to. They don’t have the buying power and momentum of big companies/conglomerates. It can be done but it is rarer to succeed without growth for growths sake. That gives a lot of power to those conglomerates. This small business deal was a big factor in the growth surrounding the boomer generation. That is going away.
The world is changing, we can no longer be the pivot point, the guiding light, the world’s policeman, the monetary powerhouse to the world. That time has passed and we have to re-evaluate our position into a world that is actually passing us by.
Raoul
@Another Scott: Here’s some broad brush data. It has surged relative to household income. It really has. Individual stories are nice, but the aggregate is what drives the discussion of college costs then vs. now.
cc: @SFAW too.
I don’t think I’m being hard on boomers as people to point out what our systems are doing to younger people.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m not the world’s biggest Lawrence O’D fan, but he oughta make one of them threads out of these tweets
trump express openness to a 22% rate today, which probably prompted Norquist’s tweet and may cause some turbulence for Paulie Blue-Eyes. If you have an R MoC and a state income tax, you have an issue. Principled Moderate Susan Collins slipped in a 10K property tax exemption. I believe Maine, like TX and FL, has no state income tax but some pretty hefty property taxes.
d58826
@Another Scott:
And not to blame the students but in 1964-68 when I was in college, the dorm room was a room, two beds, two desks, and a bathroom. Now they are nice little condos. The cafeteria was just that – one step above prison food. Today it’s food courts, gourmet dining, etc . Obviously the colleges have to compete and the parents (Boomers!) want the best for their kids sooooooooo the amenities get piled on.
Another Scott
@Raoul: Moving the goalposts doesn’t help.
Either be more careful in your posts and accept that your generalizations are problematic, or expect push-back. Or, maybe, pie-ing.
Cheers,
Scott.
Raoul
Who attended college in 1971? Boomers.
I’ve owned my bit of misguided anger a couple different times in this thread but forgiveness seems hard won here today among a slice of the commentariat. So I’m out for today. Peace.
Ruckus
@Cheryl Rofer:
Not eating, no place to live and no healthcare introduces that chance as well. And not being able to afford a college education, have a decent job, be overly taxed so that rich fuckers can get richer makes those 3 things a much more likely possibility.
Redshift
@Jeffro:
Going to see it tomorrow night!
Omnes Omnibus
@d58826:
Where? A few years ago, I went to a college reunion and chose to stay in a dorm room for old time’s sake. It happened to be a dorm I had lived while I was in school. It was a bare room with two single beds, two desks, two dressers, and a bathroom down the hall – same as it was went I went to school there.
Cheryl Rofer
@Ruckus: I don’t want to get into a pissing match about which generation of students has it worse. Just saying that service in Vietnam imposed a financial penalty along with a rather quick chance of death or dismemberment. I mentioned the student loan problem because I see some similar anxieties. Trying to set up a sympathetic discussion between the generations.
eemom
@Raoul:
Perhaps in future you might read what you wrote and consider whether you sound like a smug, self righteous little twirp before hitting send.
You remind me of the young “chicken hawk” in the WB Foghorn Leghorn cartoons, not that you’d get that. #boomerhumor
Ruckus
@Raoul:
Younger people always have it worse than the generation before them until they become that generation. Right now it has gotten worse than in the not too distant past but this is nothing new under the sun. When you are young and are getting an education, you have little experience and that is always going to be true. You can be the smartest person and have great skills, but your range of exposure is very limited. It’s not your fault of course, that’s just the nature of getting older, you can get experience. I’ve had employees who were convinced that they could do more at 18-20 yrs old than a person their parents age. In some specific cases they are right but in general, on average they aren’t. They just don’t have the experience. On the other hand as we age some get more and more set in our ways and often more and more convinced that no one at any age below 50 has the sense of a toad. Both cases view the other as an impediment to life as they see it. That cycle can be broken and it needs to be to bring equality to all of us. Other societies have done this, our culture has screwed it up for money and politics. Don’t belong to that wing of our culture, be better.
schrodingers_cat
@d58826: The food still sucks though, now it sucks in different flavors and this is from the campus that was supposedly voted to have the best food of any campus in this country.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: Dorms and dorm food still sucks.
Ruckus
@Cheryl Rofer:
I got that. Notice that I am one of those who was directly affected by the draft. The lottery happened 2 months after I enlisted and my number was 15. I was going, one way or the other. Just trying to point out that while tuition has been increasing massively since the 70s, wages, the supposedly reasonable result of an education have not kept up. It is now possible to suffer as much from the economy as it was from Vietnam, abet at a slower pace. This country is still screwing the less fortunate to the benefit of the very well off, just doing it differently today.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat: I ate at my fraternity once I was eligible (sophomore year on) although I only lived in the house for one year. Meals were quite good.
d58826
@schrodingers_cat: Still miss Mom’s home cooking:-)
It seems that not only are the Trumpers crooks but they are stupid crooks as well. From a transition e-mail obtained by the NYT
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus:
My experience as well. The dorm I lived in in the ’80’s is still in use, as is the older one next door. And both my kids’ dorms, also at private colleges, looked very much like mine.
That said, the gyms are much nicer, as well as the squash courts and lacrosse fields. And the science labs.
schrodingers_cat
@Steve in the ATL: Must be engineering labs, most freshmen labs physics and chemistry labs are pretty ancient. With materials from WWII, seriously.
ETA: Agreed about the gyms.
Steve in the ATL
@schrodingers_cat: bio and chem. These are relatively small schools so all students use the same labs. Might be very different at big schools.
schrodingers_cat
@Steve in the ATL: I have not seen the inside of a biology lab since high school. No likey squishy things.
Draco7
@Ruckus: Regarding the sponsors, yes, entirely true and a good clarification. There has to be some kind of feedback loop to promote better programming. I guess what I’m saying is that we *are* the sponsors – it’s your/our money that these companies run on. Not exclusively, but enough so if it disappeared they’d be seriously hurtin’. To pile on, though – competition is good for most markets, and this is one among many. My basic thinking:
1. Money is a powerful tool for change. Relevance to this discussion is obvious.
2. A majority of voters voted for Hillary, and there are a lot of other demographics that are/will be getting hurt.
3. In aggregate (there’s that word again) the population noted above controls a lot of money.
4. Money is a powerful tool for change. In 20 years I may not be aware that I’m repeating myself. ;>)
I have worked in corporate environments for many years, and in marketing speak I have never been aware of a pull market like this one. There’s a lot of money looking for a better home. I am involved in politics, and the people I deal with seem unaware of this – I am trying to persuade them to allow folks to donate. I am assuming that this is not an isolated symptom. In some respects I have never seen a better time to start competing with a lot of established businesses – they have labeled themselves as wedded to the Republic (sic) party, and I’m not alone in wanting to redirect my cash. I will pay a premium to avoid supporting them. I do not know everything, but I’m a business guy in a high tech industry, and I know how to (start to) go after these markets. Henry Ford’s quote is correct most of the time. That’s enough out of me for now…
BellyCat
@Ellen R:
Seriously?
This is exactly the kind of Boomer thought that Raoul is pointing out — “ We have it figured out and nobody else does. Just let us take care of things and you will be fine.“
The Boomer echo-chamber is seemingly limitless.
I am not in favor of ageism (or sweeping generalizations, as I’m admittedly doing here) being 51 years old and all, but having lived my life two years outside the window of Boomerdom, I have watched a very large generation advocate vigorously for progress in the 60s and 70s and then, as they grew up, behave in a fashion that is all too often about status and wealth accrual (with jackals here, as a minority, being largely an exception), with little desire to pass the baton.
I have taught millennial’s (and younger) and the perception of them being politically unaware and selfish, etc. does not ring true. Disenfranchised? Yes. Do they feel powerless? Absolutely.
Get these people involved more in local level politics. Empower them. Support their energy fresh Ideas, technological prowess and their awareness that it’s time to play hardball. In short, Boomers need to stop hogging the ball because it is increasingly clear that their ability to score a win is not looking reliably accurate— especially wrt non-presidential elected offices.
I love Obama as much as y’all (except for his prosecution of whistleblowers), but the reality is he largely squandered the opportunity to take full advantage of D majorities by playing Mr Nice Guy for WAY to long. We could have ACA and so, so much more.
Now it’s the R’s turn to run the tables and their desire to leave not a crumb behind is to the surprise of who? Fortunately, the worst damage may be hindered by their sheer incompetence.
Taking the country back requires fresh thinking and a clear understanding of those who would undo the fabric of this country for purely personal gain. Full stop.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: @schrodingers_cat: My undergrad built a new science building about 10 years ago, named it after Thomas Steitz, ( a Nobel winning alum). Again, a small school with everyone using the same labs.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Since it’s an old thread, I’ll bite.
Game that out for me. Explain how Obama being less “nice” would have changed anything in the roughly six months that the Dems had a supermajority.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
My brother and I started college the same year and neither one of us could understand the complaints about the dorm food. We eventually concluded our mother was a terrible cook.
debbie
@Hellbastard:
It can’t be coincidence that the number 37 again shows itself?
d58826
@BellyCat:
As a leading edge boomer I remember arguing with my granddad about the future of the country. He was convinced that with all of the stuff going on on campus the country was on the short road to h*ll (now maybe it was but not because of college kids). I argued that once we graduated, had jobs, married and had kids we would settle down and the country would go on. While I was correct I just didn’t think that so many would forget all of that student idealism. With a job and family you can’t man the barricades like you could at 18 but you didn’t have to vote for Reagan either.
Cheryl Rofer
@Ruckus: Exactly. And 15 in the draft, yikes!
Ruckus
@BellyCat:
As someone pointed out a lot of that liberal stuff from the 60s was done by the generation before boomers. I’m a boomer close to the leading edge of the concept and I was a junior in high school in 1965/66. It was our parents generation that did all that. But a lot of those fellow boomers grew up and becoming more conservative as we age is nothing new. I just went to my 50th reunion and some of the people I would never have thought would go there are rabid conservatives. Growing up does not always mean growing smarter. Sometimes just the opposite.
Ruckus
@Cheryl Rofer:
I’ve been lucky like that my whole life. Someone had to be 15. Both my best friends had very safe numbers, one was, 315.
Of course when there is money to win in the lottery, my number never comes up.
Neldob
@Lapassionara: Yea indeed y. How do we make this happen?
TenguPhule
The Sausage of Liberty will be stuffed with the rendered fat of Republican Lobbiests.
James E. Powell
@Ruckus:
It wasn’t a lot of that stuff in the 60s. Legislation-wise, it was all that stuff in the 60s. The first Boomers were born in 1946; their first presidential election was 1968. By then the liberal era over.
Katep
@Gelfling 545: Jumping into this a little late, but this “boomer” old white lady never voted Republican and neither do any of my friends. However my 36 year old very successful son is full on Trump-Bannon kool-aide drinker. Just disgusts and saddens me.
LanceThruster
Hear, hear!
cain
@germy: What’s really troubling was that the CEO was a woman and apparently couldn’t be bothered to stick up for women. The only thing I could think is that she was trying to keep the station profitable or something. But really, it’s just unfortunate.
Hurling Dervish
@K-to-the-Jane: That’s my impression, too. Can’t stand to listen to it. Anyone know if their audience has shrunk?
Adrift
@MoeLarryAndJesus:
As I have advocated since 1982, thank you.
raptusregaliter
Unbelievable! As I type this, the NBC Nightly News is actually normalizing a North Korea nuclear attack with a report on how it may not really be so bad. They are actually comparing it to an earthquake, how prepping can help you, yadda yadda yadda. WHAT IS FUCKING WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!!!???
Adrift
@gene108: You’ve reminded me how grateful I am to live in NJ-3. Thank you.
Adrift
@B.B.A.:
Well there is obviously a market, but who does the sourcing? Asking for a friend.
Adrift
@B.B.A.:
I am of the opinion the only person Stephanopolous molested is himself.
Adrift
This is why I lurk and don’t often comment. My reputation as thread killer is well earned. Dammit.
Another Scott
@Adrift: You have lots of competition in that field.
;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
(“Post more often!”)
Lapassionara
@Neldob: I am going to Democratic Party meetings, and I hope this idea will take hold.
My rules:
Do not use the word “conservative” to describe Republicans. They are radicals.
Do not use the term “fiscally prudent” to describe Republicans. They are profligates.
Do not use the term “pro-life” to describe Republicans. They are enacting policies that will kill people.
They have driven the narrative about themselves, but they are not what they claim to be, and we should make them own this.
BellyCat
@Katep: I’m so sorry about your son. That must hurt.
John Fremont
@patrick II: Yes, most of the pro life (AKA just make abortion a crime) movement uses fetuses as human shields to deflect the accusations of racism, indifference to the poor etc. As a Catholic commentator wrote a few years ago, being against abortion has allowed most Catholics to slack off on so many other moral issues of our time. Not just Catholic but Evangelicals as well
BellyCat
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Dead thread, but maybe you’ll see this?
I’m curious exactly how long Ds had a super-majority. Would have to research, but I suspect it was longer than six months and maybe(?) up to two years?
The lack of a threaded forum here really sux for those who can only pop in at random intervals when life is no longer preoccupying one’s time.
Another Scott
@BellyCat: Democrats had 60 votes in the Senate for just over 5 months.
The blog owner (and many long-time posters) hate threaded comments. It’s not going to change, and is part of the “charm” of this place. ;-)
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
SFAW
@Raoul:
Fuck you. Tell me about “Goldman Sachs,” or “but her e-mails,” why don’t you?
And I’ll tell you about James O’Keefe, and Lucian Wintrich, and Dana Loesch, and so on and so forth.
Fucking moron. And fuck your age-related-variant/version of “both sides.” Come back when you figure out what the fuck I’m talking about.
SFAW
@Lapassionara:
Radicals? Or nihilists? Based on the last 10 years, I’m thinking nihilists, or a combination of the two.
But either way, they’re anti-American.
SFAW
@BellyCat:
Technically, only about six months, I think, and only if you count the two Independents. One and a half months between when Al Franken was seated (7/7/09) and when Ted Kennedy died (8/25) [although Ted was in no condition to vote for a bit before he died) and then four-plus from September, 2009 to February, 2010.
No One You Know
Gotta say, I’m damn tired of being told to STFU and get out of the way at the same time that I hear Social Security and Medicare are getting cut…And with the 401(k) ruined by the smartest guys in the room.
While the young Turks decided HRC wasn’t pure enough.
But you be you. Old does NOT mean Republican.
SFAW
@No One You Know:
Oh, STFU and get out of the way, you old fart. Your old-fart desire to have Medicare and Social Security is oppressing the youngs of today. And your selfish desire to have shelter and food is also oppressing them, too, you oppressive bastard.