.@SenOrrinHatch on CHIP: “I have a rough time wanting to spend billions and billions and trillions of dollars to help people who won’t help themselves – won’t lift a finger – and expect the federal government to do everything.”
Unbelievable. https://t.co/4VHROvIL8X
— Jenny Wilson for UT (@JennyWilsonUT) December 2, 2017
HE’S TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN https://t.co/9CiZPhb9Kl
— Andy Richter (@AndyRichter) December 3, 2017
Yeah get a job all you fucking sick kids. I’m tired of this. https://t.co/cnpBvpQGF2
— Tommy Vietor (@TVietor08) December 3, 2017
I'm with Orrin. The first indulgence was child labor laws, now these brats have the nerve to be poor and sick at the same time. https://t.co/Nm8pRNEALB
— David Simon (@AoDespair) December 3, 2017
Just to be clear S-CHIP supports the children of the WORKING poor. Interesting contrast to view on cutting estate tax for those who can supporting themselves w/out lifting "a finger" by inheriting great wealth. https://t.co/UxheUSpbPy
— Ronald Brownstein (@RonBrownstein) December 3, 2017
.
Word is that Sen. Hatch is planning to retire, so I guess he now feels free to air his true GOP “I got mine, fvck you poor kids” philosophy in public.
I don’t know much about LDS theology, but from what little I do, there’s a bunch of [face*palm] going up back on Hatch’s home stake right now…
A lesson in how Republican politics have changed: Hatch created the Children's Health Insurance Program with Democrats, then in 2008, worked with Democrats to expand it with a higher tobacco tax against Bush's wish. https://t.co/MYNmK7wXYU
— Jonathan Weisman (@jonathanweisman) December 3, 2017
Jeff
I thought he was talking about republicans.
Mart
Also too, keep the working poor poor by never raising the minimum wage.
Patricia Kayden
Who is actually surprised by Hatch’s comments? Republicans have hated the poor like forever. Medicaid and Social Security are about to be axed. Ryan and his Granny Starvers are going to have fun destroying programs which benefit the poor.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
I hope his spinal cord spontaneously rips itself out of Hatch’s body.
Gremcat
That just made me cry. These are people who are working 2 or 3 jobs barely able to keep up. And thanks to yesterday’s atrocities, making insurance even more expensive, won’t ever be able to catch up. How in the hell can anybody be that god awful selfish and mean. I keep thinking that this can’t really be happening.
JMG
These are evil people,and eventually they will hurt people who will believe they have nothing to lose by hurting them back rather than leaving eternity to judge them.
OzarkHillbilly
Just once I would like to hear a Repub tell the rich to get off their fat asses and do it themselves.
Yarrow
I think he’s losing his mind. There was a clip a few months ago of Hatch chairing a hearing on healthcare and Sen. McCaskill asks him if there would be any more hearings. He can’t respond to her question. Then an aide gets up and whispers in Hatch’s ear and tells him what to say. You can pick up what the aide says on his mic. Then he just basically repeats it. Video link. The exchange is pretty much right at the beginning.
dr. bloor
I hope Hatch is right about the existence of God, so Teddy can kick him in his sorry junk for all eternity.
jeffreyw
They badly need a class of American workers to replace their gardeners and nannies when all the immigration is stopped. They want to keep us ignorant and willing to take any job to eke out a precarious existence. Begging for scraps to feed our children. Those of them that are still living.
OzarkHillbilly
We are getting ever closer to the point where killing the rich is the least awful thing we can do.
Spanky
Just a reminder.
(I know – not Senators, but still …)
chris
@jeffreyw: My thinking too. You can’t be a proper banana republic until you have disfigured and/or dying child beggars in the streets.
USA! #1 third world dictatorship!
laura
Believe them when they tell and show you who they are. Monsters. Evil, fucking monsters who could not care less for you and I for your children, for your job, for your future.
Immanentize
Yes, Mormons truly are the most Christ-like people, so caring:
Another Scott
Hatch is a partisan crank who was spooked by the Teabaggers. IMO, he’s senile and should have retired before his current term. Even that editorial points out that most people surveyed in Utah think he should not run for another term.
I’m normally opposed to term limits, but when people are demonstrably unfit to carry out their duties (e.g. Thurmond, maybe Hatch), and have important positions of power (e.g. president pro tempore of the Senate), it makes me think that there should be some sort of legal fitness requirement…
Cheers,
Scott.
NotMax
Ready made to plug in Hatch’s name in place of ol’ Ebenezer’s.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@JMG:
Exactly. I’ve seen comments along the lines of “the left doesn’t do violence very well”. That may or may not be true but politics doesn’t have to enter into it when someone you love dies as a direct result of the actions of politicians who literally don’t give a fuck about you; oh and you’re so poor you can’t even pay for the funeral. Something will break in that person and they’ll lash out. They may not always lash out at the right target but enough, I believe, will.
This is horrifying and so many idiot conservatives online really have no idea what the implications of this legislation are. They refuse to see the authoritarianism of shoving this bill through the legislature, without much debate or input from the opposition party.
They foolishly and partisanly believe it is the “perogrative” of the Republican party to pass tax “reform” simply because they won an election. Modern democracy isn’t that simple. This isn’t normal and it isn’t how responsible law is made. But then that wasn’t the point.
OzarkHillbilly
@chris: A couple times I have given to families with children out here. They weren’t disfigured tho. At least, not yet.
Yarrow
Given how large Mormon families are, I wouldn’t be surprised if Hatch’s constituents aren’t pleased with his comments. He may be hearing from some of them on Monday.
MomSense
Sociopaths. All of them.
rikyrah
@laura:
No lie told
rikyrah
@MomSense:
Absolutely
NotMax
@Immanentize
Great minds….
So help me, your comment was not yet there while I was hunt and pecking away.
debbie
Charles Grassley should be right up there with Hatch, just for this:
Ladyraxterinok
Mindboggling that Hatch helped to create program.
Grassley also, altho a conservative GOPer when elected, didn’t become truly insane until sometime in 90s. I remember watching him once talking on tv and thinking he was robotically saying stuff he didn’t particularly believe but needed to say to remain a GOPer senator. It was bizarre. (I was in IA when he 1st ran on platform of curbing over-spending in the Pentagon, eg $300 screwdrivers.)
oatler.
“Sire, the peasants are revolting!”
“I’ll say!”
GUILLOTINE GREASE
Suzanne
The LDS have some…..interesting…..ideas about social welfare. There are ***a lot*** of LDS families on public assistance. They start families young, and it’s relatively new for LDS women to go to college. Families of eight are not uncommon, and mom usually stays home and dad was typically working a middle-class job—nothing that could possibly provide for that many kids. But lots of them also tend to be anti-welfare, and they have a similar cultural drive toward work that the Protestants do, in which laziness and needing help is seen as a really big failing. They have a really strong cultural drive toward helping others, but much of that is encouraged to stay within the community itself rather than things the Catholic Church does, with homeless shelters and hospitals. There are no LDS hospitals or adoption charities, etc. OTOH, when my mom had her freakout and we needed to empty her house ASAP, quite a few of our LDS friends showed up with trucks and boxes and very cheerfully emptied her house that night.
There used to be a term called “bleeding the beast” that was more commonly used, referring to getting every dollar of public assistance possible because the government was seen as an enemy. I think that that attitude is more common among the FLDS these days. And I have growing numbers of LDS liberal friends, including one who is just starting a job practicing environmental law in Berkeley. He drives a CNG vehicle and would be a latte-sipping liberal if they drank lattes.
OzarkHillbilly
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I’ve read that before too. Makes me wonder what “left” they are talking about. My guess is it is their very narrow band of the left, because there are people on the left who are very good at violence.
Darkrose
About ten years ago, I wrote fan fiction in a dystopian shared universe where a future Supreme Court had ruled that the 13th Amendment didn’t prohibit debt slavery. Corporations would turn debt over to the government, who could legally enslave you until your debt was paid off…which rarely actually happened. In some cases, like that of my protagonist, parents would essentially sell one of their children in an attempt to keep the rest of them. To forestall an aboliotionist movement developing, Congress passed legislation requiring people over a certain income level to own slaves.
I eventually had to stop writing in that world because it was making me so miserable. At the time, I thought, “Yeah, things are bad, but this is over the top.”
I don’t think that any more.
Suzanne
@Yarrow:
I would be skeptical. Lots of LDS families are on public assistance, but there is plenty of that whole “well, WE really need it but we are godly and hardworking, unlike those other people over THERE”. Plus, they have this really strong cultural drive against conflict. It’s really disconcerting.
Teddys Person
@Yarrow: I’m not so sure about that. I lived in Provo for two years, and in that time, countless flyers were posted at the mailboxes advertising bake sales to raise money for medical expenses. A couple of times, people knocked on my front door asking for money to send their spawn on their mission overseas. Based on my experience, they fully embrace begging as a means to supplement their income.
Suzanne
@debbie: The family that spends all their money creates more jobs than the family who saves. Now, I’m not arguing in favor of not saving. I am very fortunate in that I can make meaningful contributions to my 401K and keep more than enough on hand for emergencies (which came in exceedingly handy this year OMG). But could we stop the moral panic about spending? My God.
Shorter Suzanne: Chuck Grassley is an idiot.
chrome agnomen
@OzarkHillbilly: least awful=most beneficial
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@OzarkHillbilly: I’m old enough to remember violence from the left. I think it happens when people feel they have nothing to lose and no other way to affect outcomes.
PPCLI
Hatch has gotten more horrifying every year, no question about that. But in a longer clip of the remarks, it appears (though he’s rambling and foggy so its hard to be sure) that he’s trying to say that CHIP is a good use of money, but those other awful spending programs are absorbing the money that could be spent on it. Still disgraceful bullshit, but not that specific piece of disgraceful bullshit.
Of course, since the Republicans’ entire strategy concerning their abandonment of all their huffy pronouncements about legislative order, waiting to read the bills, etc. is to repeat a hundred times one misstatement of one thing Nancy Pelosi said, interpreted in a way that she clearly didn’t mean, I’m not all that troubled that Hatch is being pilloried for something I’m not sure he actually said.
Suzanne
@Teddys Person: I have been hit up by many, many LDS friends for GoFundMes for things like that. I admire how much that community supports each other in many ways, and I have certainly contributed to some of those, but it grosses me out how the well-connected almost instantly get however much they ask for (and then some), even if it’s for something relatively unimportant, while those who travel in different circles have a hard time coming up with cash for things like RENT.
Suzanne
@Teddys Person: I got a flier on my car inviting me to a LDS Women’s event with speakers. One of the speakers had listed as her credential “Life Enthusiast”.
I’m sure you’ll be shocked to hear that I did not attend.
Brachiator
Let’s put the CHIP Program into perspective. From a recent NBC story:
Monsters
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@NotMax:
“Are there no prisons?” asked Ryan.
“Plenty of prisons,” said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
“And the Union workhouses?” demanded Ryan. “Are they still in operation?”
“They are. Still,” returned the gentleman, “I wish I could say they were not.”
“The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Ryan.
“Both very busy, sir.”
“Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,” said Ryan. “I am very glad to hear it.”
Eh I think it fits Paul Randbot better.
rikyrah
Jared lied. Again.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RawStory/status/937318032434696193
Mary G
The commercials will write themselves. I wonder if Republicans know that they are a dying party and are just trying to steal as much as they can on the way out. Hopefully it will cause a major backlash.
Jager
For a year, maybe more, I dated a trust fund baby. 36 years old,,she went to good schools, St.Pauls,and Wellesley.,She’d never had a job. She owned a three story brownstone in the Back Bay, drove a new BMW 5 Series, spent her time shopping, playing tennis, going to the gym, walking her two dogs and getting ready to go out with me She grew up in Westport CT, in a house that was the size of St. Andrews golf club, the patio was the size of a suburban house lot.. Her family owned an island in Maine. She was the 4th generation of old New York banking and investment money. While we were dating I was looking for a small condo, looking to spend 150-200k. She offered to have her “real estate person” take her around to find me a new place. She found me one, 2 floors on Comm Ave, 1.1 million (this was in the early 90’s) I told her it was great but I couldn’t afford it, she said “I can.” Her dad wasn’t a bad guy, but her mother was insufferable. Mommy even had her initials on the driver’s door of her Benz S class. There are a million stories I could tell you guys about her world, it was a world I couldn’t live in and now people like Ms M are going to have even more…and so will her children (don’t know if she has any) and their children and, and and. Idle rich indeed.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@rikyrah:
Is it a day ending in “y”?
Yarrow
@Teddys Person: Sure. But it still doesn’t mean they don’t want or don’t use CHIP for their kids.
Ken
@Darkrose: That was basically life for many white people during the colonial period in this country. They had to come here to pay off family debts back in England. Nancy Isenberg “White Trash: The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America.”
gene108
The same Orrin Hatch, who had a hissy fit a couple of weeks back, when Sherrod Brown said Republicans only care about the rich?
That Orrin Hatch is now working to gut CHIP?
The Mercers, Kochs, et al must have promised some pretty sweet gigs for him, his kids, grandkids, great grandkids, and great great grandkids yet to be born for however long the Hatch line may exist upon this Earth.
OzarkHillbilly
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): I remember some people of the “left” engaging in violence just a few months ago. I think they were called… “Anti… Anti-fa…” Damn i just can’t quite finish what they call themselves. Old age is getting to me I guess.
NorthLeft12
I have seen a lot of people get more conservative as they age, but WTF happened to Hatch as he went from supporter/creator of CHIP as late as 2008 and less than ten years later basically says “I really don’t give a fuck.”?
And the key response for me was the “We can’t afford it.” That is what I have heard from conservatives up here in Canada for the last twenty-five years or so. They are most likely to trot this out for any effort to make the middle class or lowers, life better through improved health care, minimum wage increases, pension plan, better labour laws, etc. I hate austerity and the selfish fools who support it.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: I have to think Jared is in really deep shit. I hope Mueller has enough to indict him, but I imagine Mueller is more than aware of the adage that if you come at the king, you best not miss. It’s hard to be patient, though, when they are destroying our democracy.
brendancalling
FYI, if you are on Twitter people like Ezra Klein and others are tut-tutting the Hatch tweet, saying it is out of context and what he REALLY means is…
Don’t let them get away with it. Hatch said what he meant and meant what he said. Don’t let little Ezra act as Hatch’s press secretary. Hatch can explain the context. We need not do any such thing.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@OzarkHillbilly: I’m the one losing her marbles because I somehow didn’t classify that as violence. I guess I thought of it as self defense. Hm. Blinders?
Yarrow
@gene108: Maybe the Kochs but if he’s counting on the Mercers he’s going to be waiting a long time. Suddenly stepping down and giving his company over to his daughter isn’t going to save Mercer from Bob Mueller’s investigation. And lawyers for things like treason defenses are expensive.
brendancalling
@PPCLI: do NOT explain for him. “ORRIN HATCH SAYS WE CAN’T AFFORD CHILDREN’S HEALTHCARE AFTER VOTING FOR TAX BREAKS FOR YACHTS AND PRIVATE PLANES”. FULL. STOP.
Patricia Kayden
@OzarkHillbilly: They’ll get around to killing us first by taking away all of the benefits which keep the middle class/working class alive. That appears to be their aim and they’re in full control of D.C. right now.
matt
Don’t criticize Senator Hatch – he’ll tell you he was once poor himself.
OzarkHillbilly
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): The best defense is a good offense. I really don’t care who swung first. Those boys came to play and besides, as Cole said, they were fighting fucking Nazis.
bemused
Republicans have extremely high standards for poor to middle class Americans on government social programs, much higher than for themselves or that they could possibly meet in same circumstances. Same goes for higher standards in general for non-whites and women.
I’d like to see a poll of GOP and Republican voters being totally honest what percentage of people on CHIPS, food stamps and all the other “welfare” programs they believe are able to help themselves without any government aid. If they said 10%, I would not be shocked.
Roger Moore
@rikyrah:
Has he been forthcoming in a single disclosure? And why is he not in prison yet?
Patricia Kayden
@laura: The problem is that the folks who vote for these monsters don’t care as long as the monsters hurt brown/black/Muslim/liberal/feminist people. I bet if you interviewed Trump supporters, they’d voice support for that awful tax bill that just passed and would echo Hatch’s anti-poor comments about the CHIP program.
Raoul
“Are there no prisons? And the workhouses – are they still in operation?”
Sen. Ebenezer Hatch (R-UT)
This is what the GOP meant when they said we could say Merry Christmas again. So they could reply, “Humbug.”
WaterGirl
I can’t get into BooMan’s site. Anyone else having that problem this morning?
OzarkHillbilly
@matt: I really doubt he can remember that far back. It’s probably something somebody told him somewhere along the line.
bemused
@matt:
Snort. They always think they were dirt poor even though they never went hungry.
Yarrow
@brendancalling:
Yes. This. Orrin Hatch has given us the gift of a statement and concept (Republicans hate kids) to use against him and other Republicans. Let’s use it! Fuck nuance. Let them be the ones explaining nuances this time. When you’re explaining you’re losing.
Keep up the pressure. Orrin Hatch wants kids to suffer and die. Orrin Hatch wants parents to watch their kids suffer as the family goes bankrupt. Republicans don’t want children to be able to see doctors. Republicans want children to suffer. Republicans give billionaires tax breaks on yachts and want sick kids to pay for it. Orrin Hatch thinks sick kids are lazy.
Patricia Kayden
@bemused: Republicans also have no problems helping out the extremely wealthy 1%-ers. They hold the poor to high standards when it comes to benefit and aid and then argue that the rich are being shafted just because the wealthy are being asked to pay their fair share of taxes. Why is okay to reduce taxes on the rich while demanding that the poor pull up their bootstraps? That doesn’t make a lick of sense when we know that the vast majority of poor people in this country are hard working folk who are struggling to make ends meet.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@OzarkHillbilly: Remember when people used to say that once you called someone a Nazi, you’d lost the argument? Shows how naïve we were!
danielx
Every time I think they cannot possibly get any worse….
lgerard
I still can’t get over Hatch’s amendment prohibiting employers from giving gift cards to employees as part of an achievement award (jeebus only knows whether it was part of the bill passed). He seems so concerned that some minimum wage drone might evade taxes on a $50 Walmart gift card. It is unbelievably petty.
i didn’t see any discussion as to whether executives should be taxed on the value they derive from company paid golf club memberships, luxury boxes at sporting events or extravagant meals and travel though.
brendancalling
@Yarrow: I’ve also been hammering “Lamar Alexander allowed a pedophile to serve as his chief of staff for 4 years and said NOTHING until after the man was arrested.” “Lamar Alexander associates with known pedophiles.”
let them explain.
Patricia Kayden
@Brachiator: Republicans aren’t going to reauthorize CHIP. We might as well say it and stop acting as if they’re going to develop a conscience.
OzarkHillbilly
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): A rose by any other name still stinks to high heaven.
Patricia Kayden
@danielx: There is no bottom. I assume once they realize that Trump is about to be ousted by Mueller’s findings, they’ll get even more desperate when it comes to passing awful legislation.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@OzarkHillbilly: It just seems so quaint now.
gene108
@Patricia Kayden:
I wonder how this attack on CHIP will help the “economic anxiety” of Republican voters?
I think someone should ask Republican voters on CHIP how this will make them feel better about the economy. We haven’t had a major piece about their feelings in three weeks. I can’t believe the MSM is ignoring them. Liberal media!!! ??♂️?♂️??♀️??????????
OzarkHillbilly
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): That’s because in some circles being called a Nazi is a compliment.
Yarrow
@WaterGirl:
He does. As Ted Leiu said, the next time Kushner meets with Mueller it will be when Mueller is reading him his Miranda rights.
@Roger Moore:
Jared’s not in prison yet because he’s being used to roll up the bigger orange in the White House. And dismantle Russian involvement in our government. I’m patient. His time will come.
Yarrow
@brendancalling: That’s excellent. Definitely let them explain. When they’re explaining they’re losing.
Kay
This was the plan, right? Pass the plutocrat tax bill and then start cutting programs for working and middle class.
Collins lied about cutting Medicare. Is she retiring to take some lobbying job or something? Is that why she feels comfortable lying to her constituents about a program they’re dependent on?
Completely and utterly corrupt people. Every one of them who voted for that tax bill.
Oh, well. At least Trump’s wealthy backers got paid. How many people do you think won in this Trump tax deal? 100,000? A million?
Everyone else gets screwed.
gene108
@Patricia Kayden:
I agree.
@NorthLeft12:
I think it shows how badly Republicans have been corrupted by their donors. They have sold the country out for what amounts to pocket change for their donors.
Kay
They’ll go after kids first because they’re less politically powerful than senior citizens, but senior citizens won’t be spared.
Kids are just the opening sacrifice. If they get away with that they’ll move on to old people.
Yarrow
@brendancalling:
You could go with the classic Palin framing: “Lamar Alexander pals around with pedophiles.”
Kay
Trump voters wanted this, right? They wanted a tax system that benefits only people who are already wealthy and screws everyone else.
They must have wanted it. If they didn’t they;re just morons who got played.
Jim Parish
@NorthLeft12:
I think part of it is what happened to his colleague, Bob Bennett, who made the mistake of working on compromise legislation on health care with a Democrat – I think it was Wyden – and was challenged and defeated for renomination at a party convention by Mike Lee.in 2010. Hatch seemed to move significantly further to the right after that.
Fair Economist
@WaterGirl:
I can’t get in either, although I’ve had a number of times where I couldn’t get in for a couple of hours.
Kay
I don’t usually resent paying federal income taxes but boy I will resent it this year. I don’t feel like paying more to subsidize these gross, greedy amoral people- our elites, I mean.
They’re takers. They provide so little value in return for working people subsidizing their decadent lifestyles.
trollhattan
Last time I saw congress this unhinged was during the Iraq invasion run-up. I fear the result this time will be just as bad.
Patricia Kayden
@gene108: Perhaps Trump voters will be okay with the (expected) destruction of CHIP as long as they can luxuriate in the knowledge that some of those hurt will be of darker hues. Otherwise, it really doesn’t make any sense that you support and continue to vote for a party which is totally against your economic interests.
PPCLI
@brendancalling: OK, OK, I’ll keep it to myself…
If anyone reads my earlier comment, know that it was not from me but rather dictated by my incompetent lawyer.
Yarrow
@Kay: The bill hasn’t fully passed yet. It may and if so it will be bad. Until then we can fight. Make them own it. It’s historically unpopular. Now the House has either has to pass the Senate bill–we can protest that and some of the Republicans who are up for reelection in 2018 may not be willing to vote for the bill. They wanted the Senate to stop it so it wouldn’t be hanging around their necks. Or it has to go to committee and who knows what will happen there.
Meanwhile there’s that pesky government shut down looming in five days. They have to deal with that.
danielx
@Kay:
Of course they’re getting played, but it is still (if not for long) a source of wonder to see the ability of Trumpistas to maintain that up is down, right is left, red is blue and Trump is looking out for their interests.
Patricia Kayden
@rikyrah: That isn’t even news anymore. Sadly. Trump has normalized lying.
sixthdoctor
Cold feet? Holding out for more? Not like her words are worth the air used to carry the sound, but food for thought…
SiubhanDuinne
@WaterGirl:
@Fair Economist:
Seems to be back up now.
Brachiator
@Patricia Kayden:
It’s deeper than that. Probable victory with their tax bill has unleashed the full GOP lizard brain. They truly believe that they have done good to the “deserving,” hard working rich people who pay too much in taxes.
Now, they must punish the “undeserving,” the poor, the working class, the elderly who receive Social Security.
And so he uses dog whistles to disguise his true purpose. He tries to convince people that he is talking about shiftless Negroes who “won’t help themselves” while he goes after children. And this even has appeal for hardened conservatives who think, “well, it’s not my problem if poor people won’t work hard enough to take care of their own children. Why should I give them my money?”
From here, the GOP has an easy jump to their core belief that the government should not help anyone take care of themselves.
Vhh
@Ladyraxterinok: Judging from Iowa GOP politics, it is the Iowa GOP voters who have gone insane. Grassley goes along with the flow.
Yarrow
@Patricia Kayden: Disagree. Trump has shown how broken some of our institutions were/are. He hasn’t normalized lying so much as shown that the media doesn’t know how to deal with it. They won’t call a lie a lie. They are slowly moving in that direction, but the overall structure of our media supports power, doesn’t challenge it.
One of our institutions that has held pretty well is the judicial system. They do not take kindly to lying and Mueller won’t appreciate it either. See what just happened with Flynn. Lying wasn’t “normalized;” it was an offense he was charged with–lying to the FBI.
We are long overdue for a correction to our media structure and stale “both sides do it” takes on things. Trump didn’t wreck it so much as shine a light on what was already broken and take advantage of the problems that were already there.
brettvk
@lgerard: I work for the Waltons; in their stores, the award is a $5 gift card. They might give as much as $50 to the widow of a worker who took a bullet for the CEO, but such generosity probably wouldn’t make it through a vote of the full board.
Brachiator
Of course, this does not apply to the children of the wealthy. Here’s Trump happily pitching for a repeal of the estate tax to an appreciative audience.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Yarrow:
I always really enjoy reading your take on things; you’re relentlessly positive. I do fear the judicial appointments that are making the judiciary more reactionary though. That stratagem is already paying dividends with the Consumer Protection Bureau. A recently appointed Trump judge rejected the request of the acting director to stop Trump from putting Mulvaney in his place at the CPB.
bemused
@Patricia Kayden:
There’s absolutely no logic to this or a multitude of republican “principles” but logic has nothing to do with their ideologies. I have my liberal “bias” but I’m kind of anal on logic. Maybe I’m not so anal, it’s that most people seem to just accept the story is true without question. I hear a story going around my area and I always want to know more, what exactly happened, how do you or they know this to be true, where, why, when. I don’t trust assumptions, I want details, details details. Now that I think about this, I’m sure I can be very annoying to people who know me.
Juice Box
I occasionally find myself arguing abortion on the the intertubes. Pro-forced-birthers are very, very, so very concerned about the babies, but not to the point of wanting those babies to have health care, food, or education on the public dime. Conservatives have peculiarly discordant ideas.
Roger Moore
@Patricia Kayden:
Not necessarily. When it looks as if Trump’s a gonner, they’ll do their best to dissociate themselves from him- really, he was only head of the Republican party for a short time, and his only job was to get coffee- and carry on with Pence, Ryan, Hatch, or whomever else winds up inheriting the reins.
trollhattan
@Juice Box:
From conception to birth is what Republicans care about, after that you best grab those bootstraps and pull.
Brachiator
@Yarrow:
This is not true, or rather it is insufficient.
There have been continuing, ongoing stories which point out Trump’s lies. But apparently this is not enough for some people. Unfortunately, the notion that the media exists primarily to challenge power is a fantasy that has never been true.
But even here, people know what’s going on. They know Trump is a liar. The majority of people voted against Trump. In recent polls, a high percentage see that this tax plan only benefits the wealthy, and oppose the plan.
Trump and the GOP are defying the will of the people. We will see if they will have to pay for their arrogance.
Citizen Alan
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
I’m nearly to the point of thinking Republicans are worse than Nazis. After all, they clearly believe that 99% of the world’s population are Untermenschen. Would anyone be surprised at this point if they started putting undesirables into concentration camps? They wouldn’t exactly be death camps, because with the private prison model, it would be more profitable to keep concentration camp inmates alive as long as possible and living in misery so that they could collect tax money for each prisonee.
Yarrow
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I know. We can’t stop everything they’re doing. But there are many moving parts to this situation. I have speculated about how this administration’s appointments will be viewed once the full measure of their treasonous activity comes to light. Will any of them be pulled. Will they be forced to resign. You know many of these judicial appointments have all sorts of dirty in their backgrounds. How much will come out and will they be forced to resign.
I even question Gorsuch’s appointment because he was appointed by a traitor and confirmed by traitors in the Senate. I have heard it’s impossible to remove him. We’ll see. As I said, we’re in uncharted territory and we simply don’t know how it’s all going to play out. This is not Watergate. This is treason. We have not dealt with something at this level before and we will see where it takes us.
Yarrow
@Brachiator: The media has been hesitant to use the word “lie.” As time has gone on they have used it more often but still not very often.
Another Scott
@Juice Box: Yup. There’s so little common in our frames of reference that it’s like they’re on another planet. Our local community newspaper had the following letter to the editor buried in the most recent weekly edition:
WTF????!! A certain expression – not even wrong – comes to mind when I read things like that.
(sigh)
Cheers,
Scott.
Roger Moore
@trollhattan:
They don’t even really care about that, or they’d be more supportive of WIC and similar programs intended to make sure women have healthy pregnancies. They mostly care about preventing women from having agency, especially sexual agency.
Chyron HR
@Brachiator:
“I have not experienced this personally, but I have heard about it from TV shows.”
WaterGirl
@Yarrow: That’s reassuring, thanks.
bemused
@Citizen Alan:
Of course they would. It would offend them to have to step over all those people begging on the streets.
WaterGirl
@Fair Economist: I appreciate knowing that! I was about to type “still down for me” but thought I had better check one more time. It’s back up. I have been wanting to read BooMan’s thread: Flynn and Kislyak’s Israel Talks Were a Bigger Deal.
sukabi
@gene108: while greed is a pretty good “motivator” fear is a better one. It might be a combination of “take your reward or we’ll expose your nasty business”…
WaterGirl
@Yarrow: I hope the Democratic senators are spending the entire weekend reading the bill and composing tweets and messages etc so we can publicize what’s in it and hopefully make it so the House doesn’t ram it through as is.
sukabi
@Yarrow: well for that matter so does drumpf paging convicted felon Jeffery Epstein.
Roger Moore
@Chyron HR:
I think Trump does love his children, and in the way that many abusive parents love their children. They love their children as they love themselves, because they see their children as extensions of themselves rather than as autonomous individuals. At least that’s the theory. In practice, they wind up loving the idea of children but hating their actual children because they fail to live up to the ideal of obedient extensions of their parents’ will.
lgerard
@brettvk:
The nonprofit I work for will give volunteers and interns a $100 gift card once or twice a year as a small appreciation of their time and effort. It is easier then writing a check in terms of bookkeeping, but i guess that displeases the %1.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: TheHill:
The House not voting immediately on the Senate version indicates that they know it wouldn’t pass. So there’s still a decent (but not overwhelming) chance of stopping this thing. Both houses will have to vote on the final bill.
Keep fighting, everyone!
Cheers,
Scott.
trollhattan
Drip, drip.
The Simp in the Suit
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Without ANY debate or input
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
I’ve thrown out this hot potato on several occasions.
Reasonable term limits
NOT one or two terms but like four senate terms, that’s 24 yrs.
NOT one or two terms in the house but along the lines of eight or ten, that’s 16-20 yrs.
Lessens the chance of a senile old fart in office. Lessens the power of any individual person. Still gives someone the chance to actually get things done. Yes it may limit a decent person’s time in office. Gives others the chance to run without having to oppose a welded in place politician. Makes it harder for a politician to become welded in place.
For those opposed I ask a questions. How many congress members are multi millionaires? How many of their constituents are? Remember a senator gets paid over a million dollars for each 6 yr term. And reps get the same pay per year, $174,000. And how many days a week/month/year do they work for that?
This is supposed to be a government of, by and for the people. All of them. Not just the wealthy, not just the powerful. And it isn’t working because we don’t let, insure, demand that it’s the people who run it. We have term limits for presidents. And that person is the leader of only 1/3 of the government. Why do we have those limits? Is it a good idea? If it is, why is it a bad idea to have limits on the other 2/3?
Also we need to have actual representation of the house. The least populated state gets one rep. There should be at least close to the same number of people in each district. So the number of reps should change with the population. We can build a bigger building.
Boatboy_srq
@Yarrow: It strikes me that Lord Dampnut and his ilk win because they do NOT do nuance. Not at all. The US center and leftward can’t fit rational policy statements onto a bumper sticker, and the Reichwing can, which is a significant advantage to the other side. We have no reason to continue to say “it’s complicated” when such simplicity is handed to us by the opposition. We need to start fighting back in their language – and start making them explain their hateful policies instead of hur-hur-hurring through their campaigning.
Ruckus
@OzarkHillbilly:
I think the French had a small discussion about that at one point in time and not actually all that long ago. Didn’t work out so well for the aristocrats I believe.
Another Scott
@Ruckus: I like those ideas. Term limits that are too short (e.g. 1 term for VA Governor) leads to musical chairs. 4 Senate terms, 12 House terms seems like a decent interval (long enough to learn how the place works, to build credibility and to make an impact, but not so long as to be nearly impossible to remove them (given the huge benefits of incumbency)).
The House is indeed too small, yeah the chamber can be enlarged if necessary.
The Senate is a tougher nut to crack. Small states having a voice is important (they do important things like grow the food and supply the raw materials, after all), but they shouldn’t have an overwhelming veto over the majority. So much of what is broken about the Senate is its internal rules – it’s hard to see that changing without overwhelming Democratic seats.
Of course, all of this would require changes to the Constitution, and that’s an even tougher nut to crack… :-/
But none of these things will change without talking and arguing about them, so let’s get started! :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Ruckus
@Jager:
The number of people who have never worked and live in luxury beyond what most people will ever even get a glimpse of, let alone a taste of is actually staggering. That they think that this is normal life is beyond belief. That they seem to have a rabid distaste of anyone with less than them is worse. But I guess someone has to live in the squalor of excess.
rikyrah
@WaterGirl:
It is hard …to have patience.
But, we get one shot at this. And, it better be iron clad. I want them ALL!
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
If the house actually represented the population, the senate wouldn’t have the level of power that it has now. And the term limits help with that power as well because then there aren’t the long term power players in place. Just looked up an interesting concept, longest serving senator. The link also shows reps. Longest serving congressperson was Dingell, 59 yrs. In a list of 110, the shortest time served was 36 yrs. Now also notice that using my term limits a person could serve in both houses for 36 to 44 yrs total, depending on the actual number of terms. So not that far out of line with at least the concept of lifetime public service.
rikyrah
@WaterGirl:
It is up and running now
Enhanced Voting Techniques
The thing that bothers me is with their “More Asshole than Thou” the Republicans have going, what’s next? Today is take away childern’s meals for the rich, tomorrow is what? Making Swift’s Modest Proposal law of the land?
Bobby Thomson
I really wish there was an afterlife of eternal damnation so that he could experience it. Welfare queening sick kids is about as bad as it gets. He is walking shit and shouldn’t be able to clean the spit from his face.
Vhh
@Suzanne:Good Mormon couples with, say 8 children, just lost 40K in exemptions while gaining only 12K in deductions (assuming they don’t itemize, for simplicity). If their income after deductions is something over 100K and they ate in the 25% marginal bracket, their taxes will go up by 4K, something like 20%. This is gonna hurt. Wonder what the political effects will be.. .
Jager
@Ruckus:
She was able to hold her upper class pretense in check 90% of the time, every once in awhile it would slip out, for instance, we were on vacation in FL. I’d rented a condo on Singer Island for a week. (she never chipped in BTW) To get to Jupiter or West Palm you have to drive through Riviera Beach, not most upscale town in that part of FL, she would physically recoil at the sight of so many minority folks wandering around or sitting out having a beer on their run down front porches. Day to day she was pretty cool, but every once in a while, watch out. My mother was pretty classy and smart. Good old Mom knocked Ms M back a few times. We were having dinner together one night and Mom asked, “Where did you get that dress?” Ms.M brightened, told her the name of the shop and designer. Mom said, “I thought so, never liked her work.” Ms M was so taken aback, she drank her gin and tonic in two gulps. Never said a word about it. Mom thought she was a “snobby little shit.”
Jager
@Jager:
My mom owned a very nice woman’s clothing store and knew the rag business inside and out.
Ruckus
@Jager:
As I don’t know this “snobby little shit” this may be an out of line comment, but, I like your mom.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
but, but….. PRO LIFE!
but, but….. FAMILY VALUES!
but, but….. CHRISTIANITY!
SFAW
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
ZEGS/ZEGK is hoping to make that part of the reconciliation discussion.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
but, but… Hillary gave paid speeches!
J R in WV
But… BUT…BUT:::
Her EMAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That server, guarded by nothing but the Secret Service!!!!! OMG!!!
Anna in PDX
@Ruckus: just age limits. Let them retire at 70. If they don’t want to, make them retire anyhow and allow them to volunteer as advisors to their younger colleagues.
TenguPhule
The crime of murder only applies against human beings. I think we can all agree Hatch does not qualify as human any longer.
Jager
@Ruckus:
Mom was an excellent judge of character…
TenguPhule
@gene108:
I can see the line ending unexpectedly in the next couple of years.