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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Busy Tuesday News Dump

Busy Tuesday News Dump

by Betty Cracker|  December 5, 20174:36 pm| 227 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Politics, General Stupidity

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There’s a lot going on in politics and in the world today. Here are some of the stories that caught my eye:

Mr. Mueller subpoenaed Trump’s bank records at Deutsche Bank, which is a BFD for several reasons, not least of which Trump indicated that if Mueller started poking around his (Trump’s) business interests, that would cross a “red line.” Via Vanity Fair:

Back in July, The New York Times asked Donald Trump how he would react if Robert Mueller started looking into his finances beyond the Russia investigation. At the time, the president said he couldn’t say whether he would fire the special prosecutor because he was fairly confident Mueller wouldn’t go there, warning that it would be “a violation” if he did. Now, we may get to find out: Bloomberg reports that Mueller issued a subpoena to Deutsche Bank several weeks ago, demanding that it turn over documents pertaining to its “relationship with Trump and his family.” In a statement, the bank indicated it would comply with the request, saying “Deutsche Bank always cooperates with investigating authorities in all countries.”

Commenters here seem divided over whether Trump can or cannot fire Mueller. I don’t know. Experts disagree. But if anything tempts him to try it, this might — Trump is crooked as a dog’s hind leg, and an analysis of his finances will surely reveal that. Not to mention he’s probably in hock up to his bulging eyeballs to Putin’s pals, which is a bad look. Anyhoo, we’ll see.

In other news, Trump announced he’s moving the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. He can tick that item off mega-donor Sheldon Adelson’s wish list as he hurls a lit match into the dynamite storage facility.

The Supreme Court is hearing the case about the baker who refused service to a gay couple. Observers seem to be saying it’s going badly for equality. We’ll see.

Russian got banned from the Winter Olympics for egregious cheating. Can’t win ’em all, Vlad.

Wild fires are exploding in Southern California. Stay safe, juicers in that locale.

That’s all I know. What else is happening?

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Reader Interactions

227Comments

  1. 1.

    mike in dc

    December 5, 2017 at 4:39 pm

    In theory, Trump can fire Mueller. In practice, it’s really messy and slightly tinged with uncertainty(what happens when you exhaust the chain of command and everyone has quit rather than fire Mueller?), and the politics and optics of it are flat out terrible. Plus, if it fails, Trump looks guilty as hell, AND he’s still in Mueller’s crosshairs.

  2. 2.

    Roger Moore

    December 5, 2017 at 4:39 pm

    Trump indicated that if Mueller started poking around his (Trump’s) business interests, that would cross a “red line.”

    And Trump is going to defend that red line less vigorously than Obama defended the red line against chemical weapon use in Syria.

  3. 3.

    ruemara

    December 5, 2017 at 4:40 pm

    I can’t imagine the argument “Jesus told me I can’t make wedding cakes for the gays, so you should stomp on their civil rights for my public business to align with my private religious views”. Yet… 2017. Also, the idea that this is ok. Fuck everyone who said there was no difference and they wouldn’t be guilted into choosing the lesser of two evils again and then fuck them once more just because I’m pissed.

  4. 4.

    schrodingers_cat

    December 5, 2017 at 4:40 pm

    The arguments of two threads down to be continued.

  5. 5.

    Corner Stone

    December 5, 2017 at 4:40 pm

    Having trouble getting anything done today. Just really tired from the very thin air we have waaaayyyyy up here on The Moral High Ground ™ .

  6. 6.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    December 5, 2017 at 4:41 pm

    Question: given the changed attitude towards LGBTQ over the last few years, doesn’t any owner who takes advantage of their “right” to discriminate against gay people run the risk of losing their business?

  7. 7.

    satby

    December 5, 2017 at 4:42 pm

    If Drumpf tries, the State of New York has dibs on the financial crimes too, and can throw in obstruction charges just as well.

  8. 8.

    Roger Moore

    December 5, 2017 at 4:42 pm

    @mike in dc:
    The other question I have is whether firing Mueller actually makes the investigation go away. That’s not how it worked after the Saturday Night Massacre, where the investigation got a new head and continued to uncover Nixon’s crimes. Firing Mueller only to have some other talented investigator appointed in his place doesn’t buy Trump much.

  9. 9.

    Dave

    December 5, 2017 at 4:42 pm

    @mike in dc: Even if he succeeds he looks guilty as hell. I’m split on if he will try. He’s fundamentally an idiot and also fundamentally a coward. He’s weak but weak men will often take sudden almost spastic ill-considered action. Really I have no idea if he will fire or attempt to fire Mueller but I can’t see that course of action ending well for him. So shoulder shrug?

  10. 10.

    Politically Lost

    December 5, 2017 at 4:42 pm

    There’s some pushback on whether or not Duetsche Bank did actually get subpoenaed by the Special Prosecutor. Jake Tapper and CNN are citing presidential sources saying that has not happened.

  11. 11.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2017 at 4:42 pm

    The face the Rough Beast made when asked about Meuller and Deutsche Bank…. Oy. He did not like the question . I hope somebody make a gif

  12. 12.

    satby

    December 5, 2017 at 4:43 pm

    Testing, new tablet

  13. 13.

    BlueDWarrior

    December 5, 2017 at 4:43 pm

    @ruemara: We know those people value their personal perception of purity rather than actually moving the ball forward on getting the law and culture to where they’d like it to be, but having to compromise some.

    They feel so self-assured that everyone will just ‘figure it out’ eventually, that they don’t have to do anything to pull people along in that direction, directly or indirectly.

    The Right nowhere near has the monopoly on dumb or lazy thinking.

  14. 14.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2017 at 4:43 pm

    The Supreme Court is hearing the case about the baker who refused service to a gay couple. Observers seem to be saying it’s going badly for equality. We’ll see.

    I’ve had a feeling this will end badly ever since it started.

  15. 15.

    Josie

    December 5, 2017 at 4:44 pm

    @Corner Stone: But just think how wonderful it feels to bask in our purity.

  16. 16.

    Corner Stone

    December 5, 2017 at 4:45 pm

    Trump doesn’t care how it looks. He doesn’t sit around looking for precedent to do what he wants. He doesn’t care if he has a confirmed AG in place. Or if, God forbid, someone resigned because of his actions. Trump is the only one that matters.

  17. 17.

    Ohio Mom

    December 5, 2017 at 4:45 pm

    Just stopped in for a moment — in 36 hours, Ohio Dad gets his aortic valve replaced. This may not be national news but it is rocking our world.

    The good news is, I finally unearthed the guest bed so now my sister has a place to sleep. She’s coming down from Michigan to help hold down the fort for the interim.

    I’ll be back Thursday morning. I figure BJ threads will be a good diversion while I wait for the surgeon to come into the waiting room and give me the all clear.

  18. 18.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:45 pm

    They caught that Kentucky asshole Lawyer who defrauded SS for $600 million, pled guilty then fled the country, in Honduras.

  19. 19.

    sheila in nc

    December 5, 2017 at 4:45 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Depends on the characteristics of your local clientele. In some towns, I expect that the bigot baker would see no loss of customer base at all. Unfortunately.

  20. 20.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    December 5, 2017 at 4:45 pm

    BREAKING NEWS: Trump has just fired Special Prosecutor Robert S. Mueller III. We have obtained a copy of President Trump’s letter to Mueller informing him of his ouster.

    President Donald J Trump
    White House

    Dear Rupert S. Mulder,

    You’re a total loser and a f*g and I bet you like sleeping with men. I’m supreme leader of these United States and I’m the only one that matters. YOU’RE FIRED for being a traitorous libtard. Lorem ipsum, you’re an enemy of the state and will be sent to Guantanamo Bay toot sweet. Putin rules.

    P.S.: I win.

    /s by popular demand

  21. 21.

    Gin & Tonic

    December 5, 2017 at 4:45 pm

    @Corner Stone: I’m having trouble getting anything done today because I’m trying to figure WTF is going on between Saakashvili and Poroshenko in Ukraine.

  22. 22.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:45 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Feature, not a bug.

  23. 23.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2017 at 4:46 pm

    If it’s Tuesday, this must be Belgium Bedlam.

  24. 24.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:46 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Missing Sarcasm font.

  25. 25.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 4:46 pm

    I’m going nuts. The Dawgs are in the Rose Bowl, tickets are reasonable and air fares are out of control. It would take at least $2k to pull it off and that’s staying with family.

  26. 26.

    Betty Cracker

    December 5, 2017 at 4:46 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Sorry if you find the subject tiresome.

  27. 27.

    satby

    December 5, 2017 at 4:46 pm

    @Politically Lost: right, because “presidential sources” never lie these days.

  28. 28.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:47 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Firing Mueller only to have some other talented investigator appointed in his place doesn’t buy Trump much.

    Replacing Mueller with a loyal Trump asshole might.

    Unlikely, but they’re on firmer ground here then trying to fire him.

  29. 29.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2017 at 4:48 pm

    @Betty Cracker: which subject in this litany are we complaining about?

  30. 30.

    Gin & Tonic

    December 5, 2017 at 4:48 pm

    @raven: Can you fl to Vegas and rent a car?

  31. 31.

    ruemara

    December 5, 2017 at 4:48 pm

    @satby: My feelings exactly.

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: you really need to put / s or something after stuff like that. We’re not dealing with a regime (I said it) that wouldn’t do these things.

  32. 32.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:49 pm

    @mike in dc:

    and the politics and optics of it are flat out terrible.

    Perhaps not the best argument to make given the tax abomination which just went through the Senate.

  33. 33.

    Betty Cracker

    December 5, 2017 at 4:49 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Wow, best of luck to him, and strength and courage to you all. My mom had that surgery about 15 years ago and came through fine.

  34. 34.

    satby

    December 5, 2017 at 4:50 pm

    @Ohio Mom: keeping best wishes for you all. Hugs.

  35. 35.

    Yarrow

    December 5, 2017 at 4:50 pm

    Re: the RNC jumping back into the Alabama Senate race:

    their jump in is tiny.
    50K and no staff
    wonder if it's to get the boss off their back? (trump)
    — Greg Dworkin (@DemFromCT) December 5, 2017

    Interesting.

  36. 36.

    germy

    December 5, 2017 at 4:50 pm

    Via @JaySekulow lawyer for @realDonaldTrump “We have confirmed that the news reports that the Special Counsel had subpoenaed financial records relating to the President are false. No subpoena has been issued or received. We have confirmed this with the bank and other sources.”— Major Garrett (@MajorCBS) December 5, 2017

    The “records relating to the President..” language includes the Trump Organization according to @JaySekulow https://t.co/CIAlEAUk7E— Major Garrett (@MajorCBS) December 5, 2017

  37. 37.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    December 5, 2017 at 4:51 pm

    @sheila in nc:
    What if the asshole baker’s business burned to the ground?

  38. 38.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 4:51 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: There are no options that make it work, none. Vegas, Reno, Oakland, Ontario I’ve checked em all.

  39. 39.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:51 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Trump doesn’t care how it looks.

    And yet people still don’t really grasp how true this is. We have tapes of him literally cursing out his own minions about this.

  40. 40.

    rikyrah

    December 5, 2017 at 4:52 pm

    @Ohio Mom:
    positive thoughts for Mr. Ohio Mom and the family.

  41. 41.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2017 at 4:52 pm

    @Ohio Mom: hang in there, and good vibes to Ohio Dad!

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: then somebody would have committed a felony.

  42. 42.

    bemused

    December 5, 2017 at 4:52 pm

    @ruemara:

    I agree. I almost fainted.

  43. 43.

    eclare

    December 5, 2017 at 4:52 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Best wishes to you all for a speedy recovery!

  44. 44.

    Lapassionara

    December 5, 2017 at 4:52 pm

    @raven: Do it. It is only money.

  45. 45.

    germy

    December 5, 2017 at 4:52 pm

    unbelievable.

    Security ? Message for US ?? Citizens ⬇️ pic.twitter.com/NCXhVK7daD— USCGJerusalem (@USCGJerusalem) December 5, 2017

  46. 46.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    December 5, 2017 at 4:53 pm

    @germy:
    The lawyers are trying to muddy the facts. Putin has taught them well.

  47. 47.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:53 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Please use the sarcasm font or please stop this line of descent.

  48. 48.

    Yarrow

    December 5, 2017 at 4:53 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Sending good wishes. Hope it all goes well.

  49. 49.

    sigaba

    December 5, 2017 at 4:53 pm

    @Politically Lost:

    There’s some pushback on whether or not Duetsche Bank did actually get subpoenaed by the Special Prosecutor. Jake Tapper and CNN are citing presidential sources saying that has not happened.

    Trump’s radio host lawyer Jay Sekulow has released a statement denying it’s happened. But Trump’s lawyers would have a very good reason to lie about this — they desperately want to keep Trump from firing Mueller precipitously and subpoenaing DB comes close to Trump’s previously-stated redline.

    Sekulow’s denial has an audience of one.

  50. 50.

    Gin & Tonic

    December 5, 2017 at 4:53 pm

    @raven: According to Google Maps it’s only a 34-hour drive.

  51. 51.

    trnc

    December 5, 2017 at 4:53 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: I don’t like it when religiosity becomes an excuse for discrimination, but I was never terribly excited over this particular case. If I had to depend on any baker or food vendor who hated my very existence just because, I’d tell him to screw off and then bring a box of Entemann’s cookies with a big sign that says “Courtesy Of Your Local Bible Thumper.”

  52. 52.

    No Drought No More

    December 5, 2017 at 4:54 pm

    Russia owns Trump.

    Who can tell whether or not the decision to move our embassy to Jerusalem isn’t- in reality- a command from Moscow? It would make sense if it was, wouldn’t it?

  53. 53.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:54 pm

    @germy: But I was told this wasn’t the worst thing Trump has done in the middle east so far!

  54. 54.

    germy

    December 5, 2017 at 4:55 pm


    Senate confirms Kirstjen Nielsen to head Department of Homeland Security, installing a close ally of John F. Kelly

    (WaPo)

  55. 55.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    December 5, 2017 at 4:55 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Just to be clear I wouldn’t do that. But somebody else might. There’s no going back to the days of Jim Crow. Stuff like the tax bill will just make people more desperate and angry. Desperate, angry people sometimes act out.

  56. 56.

    eclare

    December 5, 2017 at 4:55 pm

    @raven: Fly out of Nashville or Birmingham?

  57. 57.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:55 pm

    @No Drought No More: I credit Russia with more intelligence then trying to kick off a three way jihad among the Abrahamic religions.

  58. 58.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 4:55 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Belive me, I considered that. We could take the pups! I took dear departed Ralph to the 84 Rose Bowl!

  59. 59.

    mike in dc

    December 5, 2017 at 4:55 pm

    @Roger Moore: That may be a big part of the reason why he hasn’t fired Mueller. Whoever fires him will likely appoint a new special prosecutor, and said special prosecutor will have to decide whether to retain or discharge any/all of the prosecutors and staff brought on board by Mueller. Trump would either have to get Sessions to un-recuse himself, or replace Sessions or Rosenstein with a loyalist who either appoints someone to tank the investigation, or just tanks it themselves. Even then, what happens to the evidence? It most likely gets subpoenaed immediately by Congress if the investigation is shut down. And the discharged prosecutors get called to testify to various committees, and reporters will be ringing their phones off the hook. So maybe it is overhyped after all.

  60. 60.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 4:55 pm

    @eclare: Same

  61. 61.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:55 pm

    @germy: Almost as if they’re setting up a military coup. //

  62. 62.

    Yarrow

    December 5, 2017 at 4:56 pm

    @raven: Did you try alternate airports? Alternate days? Fly to somewhere like Las Vegas and drive over?

  63. 63.

    West of the Rockies (been a while)

    December 5, 2017 at 4:56 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Best wishes, OM. My father went through that in ’96 and came out fine. I hope you experience the same.

  64. 64.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2017 at 4:56 pm

    @No Drought No More: I don’t know what Putin’s ME interests are, but I suspect trump’s goal is more to appeal to the fundies and their various superstitions about magical real estate, and spite towards brown people

  65. 65.

    Bobby Thomson

    December 5, 2017 at 4:57 pm

    Kennedy is a very stupid man. That’s why the Garland appointment was so important.

  66. 66.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:57 pm

    @trnc: And what happens when you can’t eat out at all because every vendor around you refuses you service?

    The precedent is clear.

  67. 67.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    December 5, 2017 at 4:57 pm

    @TenguPhule:
    Are The Generals finally going to save us?

  68. 68.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 4:58 pm

    @Bobby Thomson: Gorsch isn’t even pretending to be impartial.

  69. 69.

    SiubhanDuinne

    December 5, 2017 at 4:58 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Trump doesn’t care

    Trump is a fucking honey badger, but without the engaging smile and winsome personality.

  70. 70.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2017 at 4:58 pm

    @raven

    Fly into San Diego and take the train north? My (limited) understanding is there is frequent SD to LA service.

  71. 71.

    MomSense

    December 5, 2017 at 4:59 pm

    Last plug for watching the documentary Icarus on Netflix. You will see the people and the intrigue behind the Russian doping program and the whistle blower.

    It’s also a fascinating view of how Putin operates.

  72. 72.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:00 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Or the actual toughness.

  73. 73.

    Yarrow

    December 5, 2017 at 5:00 pm

    @raven: I’d recommend going. Pay the money for the tickets. Drive. Get miles from a friend. Whatever it takes. Get yourself there. It’ll be worth it. Maybe stay longer and the flight will be cheaper because you’re coming back after peak dates.

  74. 74.

    mike in dc

    December 5, 2017 at 5:01 pm

    @Corner Stone: He does care, however, about whether or not this will actually work to “end” his problems. If he’s told repeatedly that it won’t, then he won’t do it(most likely).

  75. 75.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2017 at 5:01 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: also, too

    Jennifer Epstein‏Verified account
    That move to Jerusalem won’t be immediate. Trump to sign another 6 month waiver,

    you know the story about trump ordering his heavy equipment to move dirt around on a stalled project, I think in Atl City, to convince prospective creditors that the thing was much more advanced than it was? That’s this. Moving dirt around to appease Adelson and Roy Moore voters while not actually doing anything

  76. 76.

    lamh36

    December 5, 2017 at 5:01 pm

    @ScottNevins
    If baking a cake for a gay wedding means you support gay marriage, then helping a pedophile get elected in Alabama means you support pedophilia. #RepublicanHypocrisy
    11:38 AM – Dec 5, 2017

  77. 77.

    SiubhanDuinne

    December 5, 2017 at 5:03 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Will be thinking of you and Ohio Dad. I know it’s worrying, but this should be simple and straightforward surgery. Please let us know as soon as you know.

    How is your son doing? I imagine this is a challenging event for him to wrap his head around. Give him an extra hug from me, if you please.

  78. 78.

    rikyrah

    December 5, 2017 at 5:03 pm

    Another UGLY Q-Poll for GOP:
    GOP tax plan approval: 29%
    Trump approval: 35%
    Generic House poll 50-36 +14D!
    Generic Senate poll 51-37D
    Holy Gender Gap Batman:
    58-29 Women want Ds to control House.
    45-42 Men want Rs.https://t.co/5hKYVoulnL

    — Steven Dennis (@StevenTDennis) December 5, 2017

  79. 79.

    delk

    December 5, 2017 at 5:03 pm

    After two weeks of false starts and delays, we finally closed on our new condo this afternoon and will be moving tomorrow!

  80. 80.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    December 5, 2017 at 5:04 pm

    @TenguPhule:
    You got it.

  81. 81.

    JCJ

    December 5, 2017 at 5:05 pm

    @raven:

    Make a go fund me thingie. I’ll kick in twenty bucks for ya!

  82. 82.

    SiubhanDuinne

    December 5, 2017 at 5:05 pm

    @TenguPhule:

    Inorite? I’d like to see him bite the head off a venomous snake.

  83. 83.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    December 5, 2017 at 5:06 pm

    @rikyrah:
    WTF is with these men? Is rule of law and effective positive governmental action too much to ask for?

  84. 84.

    Corner Stone

    December 5, 2017 at 5:07 pm

    @No Drought No More:

    Who can tell whether or not the decision to move our embassy to Jerusalem isn’t- in reality- a command from Moscow?

    But how is this an indictment of Bill Clinton, HRC and other Democrats?

  85. 85.

    The Moar You Know

    December 5, 2017 at 5:09 pm

    Who can tell whether or not the decision to move our embassy to Jerusalem isn’t- in reality- a command from Moscow? It would make sense if it was, wouldn’t it?

    @No Drought No More: It’s a command from Sheldon Adelson. Very specific and not negotiable.

  86. 86.

    ruemara

    December 5, 2017 at 5:11 pm

    @bemused: I literally had a knife spike through my chest. This just isn’t a time to play.

  87. 87.

    Roger Moore

    December 5, 2017 at 5:13 pm

    The report in the LA Times seems a little more hopeful that the anti-discrimination ruling will stand.

  88. 88.

    wjs

    December 5, 2017 at 5:14 pm

    @Ohio Mom: I have had this done. My aortic valve is the st Jude valve and it has been a tremendous 4 years and counting. You will be amazed by the recovery process. I had it done on a Friday and was home by noon the following Wednesday.

    Every year, they get better and better at it. Good luck to you all.

  89. 89.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2017 at 5:14 pm

    Ahmed Shihab-Eldin‏Verified account
    Jones goes hard in speech: saying he uses guns for hunting “not prancing around on stage,” that Moore has “never, ever served our state with honor,” & that “men who hurt little girls should go to jail and not the United States Senate.”

  90. 90.

    lamh36

    December 5, 2017 at 5:16 pm

    @kylegriffin1
    1m1 minute ago
    More
    Don Jr. asked Natalia Veselnitskaya at the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting whether she had evidence of illegal donations to the Clinton Foundation, Veselnitskaya told the Senate Judiciary Cmte in answers to written questions obtained exclusively by NBC News.

    https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/938169872848248834

  91. 91.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2017 at 5:17 pm

    DEC 5 2017, 5:04 PM ET
    Donald Trump Jr. asked Russian lawyer for info on Clinton Foundation
    by KEN DILANIAN and NATASHA LEBEDEVA
    Donald Trump Jr. asked a Russian lawyer at the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting whether she had evidence of illegal donations to the Clinton Foundation, the lawyer told the Senate Judiciary Committee in answers to written questions obtained exclusively by NBC News.
    The lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya, told the committee that she didn’t have any such evidence, and that she believes Trump misunderstood the nature of the meeting after receiving emails from a music promoter promising incriminating information on Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump’s Democratic opponent.

    Fifty million quatloos says Chuck Todd asks Dilanian about this story and in the same segment says there’s no evidence of collusion.

  92. 92.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 5:19 pm

    @JCJ: It’s such a waste I can’t even be beggin. I think back to 84 and remember what a great time we had right up until, you know, the game. UCLA kicked our ass!

  93. 93.

    Corner Stone

    December 5, 2017 at 5:19 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s good stuff but it’s the same mistake a lot of D’s make. Too little, too late. DJ should have been running ads with Moore handcuffed to a police officer on one hand and cuffed to his other hand cuffed an underage girl with a big striped lollipop and pigtails.

  94. 94.

    lamh36

    December 5, 2017 at 5:19 pm

    @christinawilkie
    4m4 minutes ago
    More
    BRK: @NBCNews has obtained Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya’s complete testimony to Senate Judiciary about her meeting with Donald Trump Jr.
    Read it here >
    https://twitter.com/christinawilkie/status/938170067392622597

  95. 95.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    December 5, 2017 at 5:20 pm

    @TenguPhule:

    “Special Prosecutor Larry Klayman”….

  96. 96.

    Starfish

    December 5, 2017 at 5:23 pm

    @delk: Congratulations! I hope you enjoy your new place.

  97. 97.

    TS

    December 5, 2017 at 5:23 pm

    @satby: I think the source for this one was Sarah Huckabee Sanders — who is well known for always telling the truth to reporters
    ….
    And still they get suckered in to quoting her lies.

  98. 98.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:23 pm

    @lamh36: Anyone taking any bets on “The leaks are the real crime here!” spewing forth from the pukefunnels?

  99. 99.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:25 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Double that the leaks will be agreed upon by the very serious Republicans as the real crime here.

  100. 100.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:25 pm

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: And its too early for me to get a drink here.

  101. 101.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2017 at 5:26 pm

    @TenguPhule: re-upping from yesterday

    She [Ivana] suggested the name Donald, Jr., and her husband hesitated: “What if he’s a loser?” he asked.

  102. 102.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2017 at 5:27 pm

    Wild fires are exploding in Southern California. Stay safe, juicers in that locale.

    Some of these homes are worth a million dollars (some of this is appreciation, not original cost). Some people in Red States are happy that the House Tax Bill would limit the mortgage deduction on homes like these on tax returns, because they are gleeful that middle class people in high tax blue states might be punished for their sins.

    That’s all I know. What else is happening?

    The murder of the former president of Yemen will result in terrible escalations of violence there.
    Elsewhere ..

    The Senate confirmed President Trump’s pick to lead the Department of Homeland Security after John Kelly left the agency for his White House post earlier this year.

    Senators voted 62-37 on Kirstjen Nielsen’s nomination to be DHS secretary, with 10 Democratic senators and Independent Sen. Angus King (Maine) siding with Republicans to support her.

    Nielsen previously served on George W. Bush’s homeland security council. She also worked with Kelly at DHS when he served as secretary earlier this year, and followed him to the White House to become his chief of staff.

    And the FCC votes on Net Neutrality on December 14. The impact on the Internets could be tremendous.

  103. 103.

    Miss Bianca

    December 5, 2017 at 5:27 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Good luck with everything!

  104. 104.

    JCJ

    December 5, 2017 at 5:27 pm

    @raven:

    Oh my gosh! I do remember that game! I really liked that Illinois team. The only bowl game ever went to Purdue had a big upset over Kansas State in the Alamo Bowl. I took my mother to the game as she was a big Boilermaker fan. Needless to say recent times have been rather lean. I just hope they don’t get embarrassed in their bowl this year. Last bowl game for Purdue they just got trounced by OK State.

    Well, if you decide to I will gladly send you a few quarters.

  105. 105.

    Manyakitty

    December 5, 2017 at 5:29 pm

    @Corner Stone: YES. I can’t focus on anything and was totally useless at work.

  106. 106.

    lamh36

    December 5, 2017 at 5:30 pm

    @JohnJHarwood
    Follow Follow @JohnJHarwood
    More
    groups of Americans saying GOP tax plan favors rich at expense of middle class: independents (58%), women (69%), white college graduates (61%), age 18-34 (72%), age 35-49 (65%), Hispanics (68%), blacks (83%)
    https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status/938172360909312005

  107. 107.

    WaterGirl

    December 5, 2017 at 5:31 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Waiting for the all clear is the worst, but you will have us to hang out with. They have gotten very good at these things, but it’s sttill scary, even when you know all the odds are on your side and the outcome is likely to be very good. Peace, WG

  108. 108.

    The Dangerman

    December 5, 2017 at 5:31 pm

    @raven:

    The Dawgs are in the Rose Bowl, tickets are reasonable…

    Gotta do it. In fact, gotta do the Rose Parade, too. Each should be done at least once (I did the RB for UCLA/Illinois, which I think I shared with you previously). I find flowers boring as hell … and even I thought the Rose Parade was fun (one time, and I didn’t camp out; fuck that shit).

    If nothing else, you are partying in fairly decent weather (typically) while lots of the country has miserable weather.

  109. 109.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 5:31 pm

    @JCJ: Thanks, I could do it if I really wanted to, I’m trying to be responsible.

  110. 110.

    ? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?

    December 5, 2017 at 5:31 pm

    @Brachiator:
    Why are any Democrats voting for any T nominee?

    And the FCC votes on Net Neutrality on December 14. The impact on the Internets could be tremendous.

    What could happen?

  111. 111.

    The Dangerman

    December 5, 2017 at 5:32 pm

    Also, put me down for this Deutsche Bank thing as being a false flag that gives Trump cover for firing Mueller.

  112. 112.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 5:32 pm

    @The Dangerman: My mom died having never been to the parade and it was a big regret. I took her to the game in 84 but not the parade. She was a proud Illini as well.

  113. 113.

    Manyakitty

    December 5, 2017 at 5:32 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Sending thoughts of uncomplicated surgery and a speedy recovery.

  114. 114.

    gene108

    December 5, 2017 at 5:33 pm

    @ruemara:

    I can’t imagine the argument “Jesus told me I can’t make wedding cakes for the gays, so you should stomp on their civil rights for my public business to align with my private religious views”. Yet… 2017

    I fear this will lead to a re-examination of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

    Can’t wait for people’s religious beliefs to keep them from serving Mexicans, blacks, Indians (any kind), etc.

    Boy, that 1964 Civil Rights Act sure did oppress a lot of people’s religious beliefs – Neil Gorsuck, sometime in the future…

    That 1964 Civil Rights Act made everyone question how smart I am, and my Yale degree isn’t worth as much as used toilet paper. Fuck ’em all for making me feel bad about myself. – Clarence Thomas…

  115. 115.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2017 at 5:36 pm

    A friend with mead is a friend indeed.

    The Senate tax bill appears to grant some tax breaks for mead production. Who, apart from ancient Vikings, drinks mead?

    The bill also takes some time to define mead.

    A wine containing not more than .064 gram of carbon dioxide per hundred milliliters of wine…

    derived solely from honey and water, which contains no fruit product or fruit flavoring and which contains less than 8.5 percent alcohol by volume.

    Stuff like this makes me sorry I gave up drinking.

  116. 116.

    SiubhanDuinne

    December 5, 2017 at 5:36 pm

    @delk:

    Congratulations!

  117. 117.

    Patricia Kayden

    December 5, 2017 at 5:37 pm

    @Politically Lost: Sarah Huckabee Sanders claimed that Jay Sekulow claimed that no such subpoena happened. I tend not to believe that bunch so who knows.

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Mueller, are you reading this? Donny Jr. needs to be indicted next.

  118. 118.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:37 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Pay per click. The bad one.

  119. 119.

    The Dangerman

    December 5, 2017 at 5:37 pm

    @raven:

    She was a proud Illini as well.

    Sorry about the game; I read someplace that the Illini went and partied hard at the Playboy Mansion and weren’t really, um, up for the game.

    I can understand the distraction. That was the game I met, far too briefly, Julie Hayak (Miss USA at the time). Julie, if you are a Juicer, can I propose marriage via this blog? It might be a first in these virtual parts.

  120. 120.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:38 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Who, apart from ancient Vikings, drinks mead?

    /whistles innocently

  121. 121.

    SiubhanDuinne

    December 5, 2017 at 5:38 pm

    @raven:

    Have you looked at flying out of Birmingham?

  122. 122.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2017 at 5:38 pm

    @Brachiator

    Who, apart from ancient Vikings, drinks mead?

    raises hand

    Also, at least one commenter here makes it at home.

  123. 123.

    Yarrow

    December 5, 2017 at 5:38 pm

    @raven: Don’t be responsible about this. Go! You can always cut corners somewhere else. You’ll have a great time.

  124. 124.

    ruemara

    December 5, 2017 at 5:39 pm

    @gene108: I’ve already called it as a Jim Crow 2.0 decisions. There has always been a biblical argument for prejudice. This whole case is motherfucking bullshit.

  125. 125.

    J R in WV

    December 5, 2017 at 5:40 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Best of luck to Ohio Dad, try not to get too excited waiting, it sometimes takes longer than they expect and that isn’t necessarily bad news.

    We’re all pulling for you. Well, except for the trolls, maybe…

  126. 126.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:40 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:

    Why are any Democrats voting for any T nominee?

    Something something, bipartisanship. Absolutely nothing worth considering a primary over, or so I’m told.

  127. 127.

    jl

    December 5, 2017 at 5:40 pm

    @The Dangerman:

    ” Also, put me down for this Deutsche Bank thing as being a false flag that gives Trump cover for firing Mueller. ”

    Trump’s own lawyer is denying that it is true. So, that is evidence against it being a simple false flag operation coming directly from the Trump legal team. But Josh Marshall has an interesting tweet out that says whether Mueller has or has not subpoenaed his bank records may be unverifiable, unless something comes of it that appears in a public legal filing. Apparently there are cases where grand jury can subpoena financial records and institution cannot reveal that to the customer. So, this may be just a known unknown for the time being.

    @joshtpm
    Contra Jay Sekulow’s claim that he confirmed with Deutsche Bank that Trump’s records haven’t been subpoenaed, TPM Reader notes that statute allows judge to bar bank for telling customer if this happens.
    https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/938172939635216384

  128. 128.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:40 pm

    @ruemara:

    This whole case is motherfucking bullshit.

    Amen.

  129. 129.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:41 pm

    @NotMax: Amazing stuff, isn’t it?

  130. 130.

    gbbalto

    December 5, 2017 at 5:41 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Best wishes for it going well!

  131. 131.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2017 at 5:42 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:

    And the FCC votes on Net Neutrality on December 14. The impact on the Internets could be tremendous.

    What could happen?

    Worse case scenario, Internet service providers could block content they don’t like. Or, since some of them also own content providers, could charge more for, say, Netflix, to transmit their programs, and favor their own product. They could stifle innovation.

    The Electronic Frontier Foundation is a good, honest source of information, in my opinion.

  132. 132.

    gene108

    December 5, 2017 at 5:42 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Happy surgery! Or whatever it is we are supposed to say, when a loved one gets operated on…

    Keeping you in our thoughts

  133. 133.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2017 at 5:43 pm

    @Patricia Kayden: @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Mueller, are you reading this? Donny Jr. needs to be indicted next.
    I’m sure Mueller has known this for quite a while. Slab-head Donnie is like Wyle E Coyote, or more appropriately Daffy Duck, walking happily along the cliff unaware he’s about to fall out of sight

    (Meanwhile, Seth Moulton on MSNBC expressing the only idea I have ever heard him express: Nancy Pelosi needs to step down. This, he seems to think, is bold new thinking and leadership)

  134. 134.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:43 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Just really tired from the very thin air we have waaaayyyyy up here on The Moral High Ground ™ .

    Obviously an early indicator that Franken needs to resign. //

  135. 135.

    Yarrow

    December 5, 2017 at 5:44 pm

    @raven: I just randomly put ATL-LAX, Dec 28 – Jan 5 into Kayak and got $684 round trip on American. Guess it depends how long you can spend out there. Staying longer probably brings down the price.

  136. 136.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 5:44 pm

    @The Dangerman: Oh it was a total set-up. Ten days in a hotel full of fans telling them how great they were. A 4 loss UCLA slept in their own beds and lay in there bushes just waiting to ambush is. I remember Jim Murray’s column in the LA Times the next day, “Did you really think YOUR California kids were better than OUR California kids”? That was the year after the Big-10 started letting schools go to bowls besides the grand daddy and for years that was given as an excuse for poor conference performance in bowls. Interesting sidebar, the Dawgs beat UCLA that year and I really had no idea I’d end up here the next year.

  137. 137.

    The Dangerman

    December 5, 2017 at 5:44 pm

    @Yarrow:

    Don’t be responsible about this. Go!

    Ditto. I’d go in a heartbeat for this game; UO’s offense vs. UGA’s defense should be fascinating.

  138. 138.

    Yutsano

    December 5, 2017 at 5:44 pm

    @Ohio Mom: *hug*
    Trust your surgeons, especially if you’re at Cleveland Clinic. My hope for the best possible outcome and love and healing light to you.

  139. 139.

    Patricia Kayden

    December 5, 2017 at 5:45 pm

    @lamh36: Only 83% of Blacks? Hmmmm. That’s kind of strange. Poorer Blacks and working class Blacks are going to be hit hard by this tax scam. Although I’ve seen charts showing that those earning over $100,000 get tax cuts under the GOP plan, it won’t be near enough to justify the damage that will be done to those earning under $70,000.

  140. 140.

    Silent no more

    December 5, 2017 at 5:45 pm

    @Ohio Mom: All fingers and toes crossed for excellent outcome!

  141. 141.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 5:45 pm

    @Yarrow: Yea, I’m happily married and if I went by myself. . . kapow!

  142. 142.

    Manyakitty

    December 5, 2017 at 5:45 pm

    @Brachiator: EFF is solid. I give them money.

  143. 143.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2017 at 5:45 pm

    @TenguPhule

    Two thumbs plus two big toes up for the well-made stuff.

    Melomels (fruit meads) and cysers are even better.

  144. 144.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 5:47 pm

    @The Dangerman: Our offense is very good as well and they haven’t done well against the run. Another issue is, if we win, the national championship is 60 miles away and those tix are $1500 now!

  145. 145.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2017 at 5:47 pm

    @TenguPhule:

    Who, apart from ancient Vikings, drinks mead?

    /whistles innocently

    Hmmm. Very interesting.

  146. 146.

    Patricia Kayden

    December 5, 2017 at 5:48 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Seth Moulton on MSNBC

    I assume this is another useless talking head who I thankfully don’t know or care about. Right now all my energy and attention is focused on Mueller and his investigation and the drip drop of indictments.

  147. 147.

    Mary G

    December 5, 2017 at 5:48 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Keeping the Ohio fam in my thoughts.

  148. 148.

    SiubhanDuinne

    December 5, 2017 at 5:48 pm

    O/T: Anybody know what’s going on with Charlie Pierce? He hasn’t posted on his Esquire blog at all today (don’t know about Twitter, I don’t follow Twitter).

    This seems to be a recent pattern. He’ll go all day without a single post, then load up four or five late in the day. I find it disconcerting, and I hope his health is okay.

  149. 149.

    Yarrow

    December 5, 2017 at 5:49 pm

    @raven: Well, with that fare it’s still only $1,400 round trip for two. I understand, though. Especially with the possibility of a national championship nearby.

  150. 150.

    clay

    December 5, 2017 at 5:49 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Maybe, but moving this dirt could blow up the Middle East.

  151. 151.

    ? Martin

    December 5, 2017 at 5:49 pm

    @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:

    WTF is with these men? Is rule of law and effective positive governmental action too much to ask for?

    Hey, you get what you pay for, and the billionaires are paying more than we are. But following this tax bill I’d argue that we’re now a full-on plutocracy. I’m honestly not sure how we claw this back, but time isn’t on our side given the full assault on judicial nominations and restricting voting rights.

  152. 152.

    Yarrow

    December 5, 2017 at 5:50 pm

    @Patricia Kayden: Seth Moulton is the Dem Rep from MA that wants Nancy Smash’s job.

  153. 153.

    Mnemosyne

    December 5, 2017 at 5:50 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Yikes — good luck! The good vibes here seem to help.

  154. 154.

    The Dangerman

    December 5, 2017 at 5:51 pm

    @raven:

    Another issue is, if we win, the national championship is 60 miles away and those tix are $1500 now!

    Oooooooooo …. Rose Bowl vs. potential NC game, probably against Alabama (sorry, Clemson fans, but you ain’t beating them twice in a row). Now, THAT’S a tough call. If I had to pick one ….

  155. 155.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:51 pm

    Kristen Waggoner, arguing for Masterpiece Cakeshop of Colorado, made the creative argument that the Christian confectioner “intended to speak through that cake” and that when the cake maker bakes, “he is creating a painting on that canvas that expresses messages” — and is therefore covered by the First Amendment.

    I can’t believe this case is coming down to a single fucking unreliable judge.

  156. 156.

    J R in WV

    December 5, 2017 at 5:53 pm

    @raven:

    You need to look at tix to somewhere not that close to Pasadena and rent a car. When we went to Tucson for the Gem and Mineral show on year, it was 1/3 to fly into Phoenix as the cost to Tucson.

    The city is a hive of rock-hound commercial activity the first half of February, dealers from all over the world, many with little or no English.

    But to fly into Phoenix was the same as usual. Try San Diego? or Las Vegas? Flights to Vegas are always cheap!

  157. 157.

    Betty Cracker

    December 5, 2017 at 5:53 pm

    @Brachiator: I drink mead. But I’m descended from Vikings, so I got that going for me…

  158. 158.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 5:53 pm

    @J R in WV: Vegas is the same.

  159. 159.

    ? Martin

    December 5, 2017 at 5:54 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Doesn’t matter. Jerusalem is a holy city, and the US deciding to move the embassy there will be interpreted as a religious decision, regardless of whether any dirt gets moved at all. That is the only possible interpretation for moving away from a perfectly good embassy in the Israeli capital. That is wholly unacceptable and an unbelievably dangerous position for the US to take.

  160. 160.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2017 at 5:55 pm

    In more pleasant news, I’ve been having fun with this science story about Neolithic women. It contradicts the simple, and simplistic, picture that ancient women were passive and did little more than raise children and gather fruits, nuts and seeds.

    Bone Study Reveals Why You Would Not Want to Arm Wrestle a Neolithic Woman

    During the Neolithic Revolution, prehistoric communities made the transition from being hunter-gatherers to farmers. The role women played during this time has been difficult for researchers to figure out, largely because studies have always focused on prehistoric men. Archeologists that published a new Science Advances study on Wednesday, however, believe Neolithic women ran the agricultural show — planting crops, tilling the earth, and grinding grain into flour. This, in turn, made them really, really swole.

    The team of archeologists and anthropologists report that women who lived in Central Europe approximately 7,000 years ago had stronger upper arms than living women — even today’s serious female university athletes. This study is the first to compare prehistoric female bones to those of living women, helping to remedy what the study authors describe as a “systematic underestimation of the nature and scale of the physical demands born by women in prehistory.” Now, gone away is the image of meek foraging women standing alongside strong male hunters. Neolithic women, who lived between 7,000 to 7,4000 years ago, got buff by spending their days working the land.

    “By interpreting women’s bones in a female-specific context we can start to see how intensive, variable, and laborious their behaviors were, hinting at a hidden history of women’s work over thousands of years,” said lead author Alison Macintosh, Ph.D., in a statement.

    Macintosh and her team came to this conclusion by comparing the bones of University of Cambridge rowers, soccer players, endurance runners, and non-athlete students to bone specimens collected from women who lived in the Neolithic, Bronze Age, Iron Age, and Medieval periods. Using a CT scanner to examine living specimens of the humerus (the long bone in the arm) and tibia (the shin) bones, they determined that the Neolithic women, had arms that were 11 to 16 percent stronger for their size than the rowers and were 30 percent stronger than those of an average student. To be fair to the Cambridge rowers, their leg bone strength is deemed comparable to that of Neolithic women.

  161. 161.

    debbie

    December 5, 2017 at 5:55 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    There was an article about this on my FB feed. It included a photo of the baker at work on a cake. To be honest, he’s a lousy artist.

  162. 162.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:55 pm

    @? Martin:

    That is wholly unacceptable and an unbelievably dangerous position for the US to take.

    The only question remaining is, how will Trump make this even worse?

  163. 163.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2017 at 5:55 pm

    @Patricia Kayden: young Congressman from MA, veteran, widely perceived, mostly by himself and pundits, to be the future of the party, likes to bang on about the need for Dems to reconnect with regular people, and the first, and as far as I can tell, only idea he has to do so is to get rid of Old Lady Pelosi. He also likes to talk about the fine relationships he has with Republicans he meets in the House gym, and this gives him faith in the possibilities of bipartisanship

    @? Martin: yeah, sorry, I was just focusing on trump’s domestic ploy. There’s already a new travel warning for USians in Jerusalem

  164. 164.

    El Caganer

    December 5, 2017 at 5:56 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: I thought he was on vacation this week.

  165. 165.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 5:56 pm

    @debbie:

    To be honest, he’s a lousy artist.

    And the portions are too small.

  166. 166.

    evodevo

    December 5, 2017 at 5:57 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Best wishes !! Hope all goes well with you all …

  167. 167.

    Patricia Kayden

    December 5, 2017 at 5:57 pm

    @No Drought No More: Or it could be a favor to Rightwing Israelis and Sheldon Adelson (and Evangelicals who love Israel because of the way they interpret Biblical prophecies). I can’t see why Putin would care where America has its embassy in Israel.

  168. 168.

    debbie

    December 5, 2017 at 5:58 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Sending thoughts of a speedy recovery to your husband and to you.

  169. 169.

    Steeplejack

    December 5, 2017 at 5:58 pm

    Happened to catch a few minutes of Nicolle Wallace’s show a while ago on MSNBC. It’s a little ominous that conservative New York Times columnist Bret Stephens appears to be getting worked into the MSNBC lineup as designated “reasonable Republican” or David Brooks lite. I have seen him on one or two of the other shows in the last week. He is hmmph-hmmph outraged about Trump and the “corruption” of the Republican Party, but then in the middle of all that he says he thinks the tax bill is pretty good. WTF.

    Also, Elise Jordan executed a 4.5-difficulty both-sider flip when she sort of suggested that Democrats were enabling Alabama voters to elect Roy Moore because the Democrats have “lost the moral high ground” on John Conyers and Al Franken. She did get some strong pushback on that from Wallace and the others. But, again, WTF.

    Okay I went back and checked the recording to make sure I wasn’t misrepresenting her. Her exact words:

    ELISE JORDAN: I’d argue that the Democrats’ slow response helped put Roy Moore in a stronger position.

    NICOLLE WALLACE: You know what, I would normally agree with you, but they’re both—I mean, Al Franken is fighting—they have not responded the same way. Conyers is gone; he went to the hospital and now he’s today retired. And Al Franken is fighting for his political life. We are about to elect—Roy Moore is about to start his Senate career, and Donald Trump is politically untainted.

    ELISE JORDAN: But they did have an opportunity to have the moral high ground, and Nancy Pelosi instead chose to salute John Conyers as a great champion of women who had voted for the Violence Against Women Act. That just reinforces what Alabama voters see as media hypocrisy: politicians, Democrats are just the same, and so we see a cycle where Roy Moore has benefitted in the polls since Nancy Pelosi made that appearance.

    Wallace’s panel was Harold Ford Jr., John Heilemann, Bret Stephens and Elise Jordan. That seems to skew more right than the other daytime MSNBC shows I’ve seen, but maybe that’s because of Wallace’s background as a Republican operative.

    Huh. Looked up Elise Jordan. Contributor to Time magazine, but previously a speechwriter for Condoleezza Rice and “Republican strategist.” Ugh. Also was married to Michael Hastings, the Rolling Stone and BuzzFeed journalist who died in a car crash in 2013.

    Previously I never watched the political shows, but in the Trump regime I have gravitated to the MSNBC evening lineup and A.M Joy on the weekend. MSNBC’s coverage seems to be far less right-oriented or both-sidery than the other networks’, but I’m sometimes amazed at how much it still is that way. The whole mediascape is saturated in Republican and right-wing framing.

  170. 170.

    Mnemosyne

    December 5, 2017 at 5:58 pm

    @lamh36:

    The Russians knew what Republicans wanted to hear about Hillary and used it as bait to compromise them.

  171. 171.

    debbie

    December 5, 2017 at 5:58 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Sending hopes for a speedy recovery to your husband and to you.

  172. 172.

    El Caganer

    December 5, 2017 at 5:58 pm

    @TenguPhule: He speaks through the cake? Does that mean he talks with his mouth full?

  173. 173.

    PAM Dirac

    December 5, 2017 at 5:59 pm

    @Brachiator: I drink a good amount of mead and even make some but no wimpy 8.5%

  174. 174.

    Yarrow

    December 5, 2017 at 5:59 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    young Congressman from MA, veteran, widely perceived, mostly by himself and pundits, to be the future of the party,

    Spoiler alert: he’s a white man. I realize that’s a real shocker.

  175. 175.

    Miss Bianca

    December 5, 2017 at 6:00 pm

    @NotMax: @TenguPhule: Ahem. That would be me! : )

    Try this Danish stuff, if you haven’t already. It will knock you on your ass, but youi’ll still be smiling next day.

    @Brachiator: ??!! Really? Who knew I had a friend among the GOP crowd? Or, rather, I wonder who the GOP’s friend really is?

    ETA: Do you have a link to that citation? Also, “less than 8.5% alcohol?” Whoever drafted this definition has *never* drunk mead, obviously. Certainly not mine! I wonder if you don’t get any breaks if it happens to be 13 or 14%?

  176. 176.

    Patricia Kayden

    December 5, 2017 at 6:00 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Heavens. Worse than I thought. Imagine thinking that you can work with Republicans after you saw them obstruct President Obama for 8 straight years. How clueless do you have to be to not see that there are no moderate Republicans anymore and you cannot work with them unless you give in to all of their demands? How many Democratic amendments are in the GOP tax bill?

    Arghhhhhhh!

  177. 177.

    trnc

    December 5, 2017 at 6:02 pm

    @TenguPhule: A fair response to a quickly formulated and inordinately clumsy comment.

  178. 178.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2017 at 6:02 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    I drink mead. But I’m descended from Vikings, so I got that going for me…

    Once again demonstrating that Balloon Juicers are an amazingly eclectic bunch of people.

  179. 179.

    SFAW

    December 5, 2017 at 6:03 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Best wishes and best of luck to Ohio Dad.

  180. 180.

    debbie

    December 5, 2017 at 6:03 pm

    @TenguPhule:

    I just took another look. He’s not wearing gloves. Yuck!

  181. 181.

    Betty Cracker

    December 5, 2017 at 6:04 pm

    @PAM Dirac: My neighbor made some and bottled it in 12-oz bottles. I don’t know what the alcohol content was, but I quickly learned not to slug them down like beer.

  182. 182.

    Roger Moore

    December 5, 2017 at 6:04 pm

    @raven:
    Could you fly to San Diego or Orange County and drive or take the train the rest of the way?

  183. 183.

    PAM Dirac

    December 5, 2017 at 6:07 pm

    @NotMax: My melomel won first place in the 2016 county fair. It was really a pyment, but I couldn’t resist adding about 15% raspberries to the grapes. The 2017 version is a pyment. I learned my lesson. Not going to drink it until 2019.

  184. 184.

    debbie

    December 5, 2017 at 6:07 pm

    @raven:

    What if you went a few days early? Would fares be cheaper then?

  185. 185.

    PAM Dirac

    December 5, 2017 at 6:09 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Yes very few meads I know about are below about 15%. The commercial place I linked to goes about 17-18%. They start with a sugar level high enough that the alcohol kills the yeast and you still have a per cent or so sugar.

  186. 186.

    Mnemosyne

    December 5, 2017 at 6:10 pm

    @Brachiator:

    One theory I’ve seen is that the subjugation of women didn’t really start until humans domesticated animals and men figured out how reproduction works. It was downhill for women from there.

  187. 187.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2017 at 6:10 pm

    @Miss Bianca

    Have always been impaired when it comes to remembering names. Friend here usually gives me a gift at holiday time of praiseworthy potent piquant product.

  188. 188.

    Patricia Kayden

    December 5, 2017 at 6:11 pm

    @Steeplejack: Some people will always find a way to blame Democrats for Republican misconduct. I’ve even heard folks on the Left try to blame President Obama for Trump’s foolishness as in “Well, if President Obama hadn’t used drones, Trump wouldn’t be using them now.” **rolls eyes furiously**

  189. 189.

    TenguPhule

    December 5, 2017 at 6:13 pm

    @El Caganer: The cake is apparently supposed to be some kind of edible muppet.

  190. 190.

    Patricia Kayden

    December 5, 2017 at 6:15 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Sending warm thoughts Ohio Dad’s way.

  191. 191.

    Kathleen

    December 5, 2017 at 6:18 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Sending prayers to you and Mr. Ohio Dad!

  192. 192.

    SFAW

    December 5, 2017 at 6:18 pm

    @raven:

    Far be it from me to pontificate on how you should spend your money, but I know that if MIT were to play Pasadena Voc-Tech (a/k/a Cal Teck) in the Rose Bowl — call it the “Battle of the Beavers” — I’d find a way to get there for the game. e to the u, du/dx baby!

    Since it’s a pretty safe bet that’ll never happen, take my “advice” with a ton of salt.

  193. 193.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2017 at 6:20 pm

    FYI.

    Federal disaster workers who plugged in long overtime hours during back-to-back emergencies this year may have some of their pay clawed back, the Federal Emergency Management Agency has told staffers.

    FEMA blamed an “unprecedented hurricane season” for forcing it to abide by federal statutes that cap overtime earnings and allow the agency to garnish future paychecks, Bloomberg first reported Tuesday.
    [snip]
    Employees “may still be ordered to perform work without receiving further compensation,” according to an FAQ the agency reportedly sent employees in November.
    [snip]
    One possible solution is available, notes Jacob Statman, an attorney who represents federal workers in labor disputes.

    “Federal law provides an agency with the ability to waive an overpayment,” whether the fault is the employee’s or the agency’s,” he told NBC News. “But it is within their discretion.”
    [snip]
    A FEMA spokesperson told NBC News that the affected employees are almost all in management and not boots-on-the-ground relief workers. The impacted ranks might make anywhere from $88,000 to $131,000, according to published federal pay schedules.

    The spokesperson said the staffers are being approached and advised of repayment options, including having a small part taken out of their weekly paycheck.

    It’s unlikely the head of FEMA would seek a waiver at this point, the spokesperson said. Source

  194. 194.

    Miss Bianca

    December 5, 2017 at 6:23 pm

    @PAM Dirac: Come sit by me… : )

    We’ve got a couple ciders in the brew vessels right now, but hoping to get our next batch of cyser going before Christmas. Haven’t tried brewing a pyment yet, but tried one from Hunter’s Moon Meadery, their Big Sky Red, that intrigued us, so it’s on the list!

  195. 195.

    raven

    December 5, 2017 at 6:23 pm

    @Roger Moore: @SFAW: When UCLA kicked our ass somehow Cal Tech pranksters got control of the scoreboard and put their name up there!

  196. 196.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2017 at 6:24 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

    Really? Who knew I had a friend among the GOP crowd? Or, rather, I wonder who the GOP’s friend really is?

    ETA: Do you have a link to that citation? Also, “less than 8.5% alcohol?” Whoever drafted this definition has *never* drunk mead, obviously. Certainly not mine! I wonder if you don’t get any breaks if it happens to be 13 or 14%?

    This is from pages 310 and 311 of a PDF of the Senate Bill. This section concerns “Mead and Low Alcohol by Volume Wine” and excise taxes.

    So,what I’m learning here is that there may be “regular” mead and this low alcohol version, which is getting the special tax breaks.

    You might still be able to find good links to the Senate bill using a search term such as “senate HR 1 text.”

    I got access as part of my job.

  197. 197.

    SFAW

    December 5, 2017 at 6:25 pm

    @Steeplejack:

    ELISE JORDAN: But they did have an opportunity to have the moral high ground, and Nancy Pelosi instead chose to salute John Conyers as a great champion of women who had voted for the Violence Against Women Act.

    She is SOOOO right, because playing grab-ass inappropriately with a quasi-peer (i.e., not a subordinate or staffer) is EXACTLY THE SAME as assaulting a 14-year-old, or being a pedophile.

    PS: Just to be clear, in case someone thinks I’m giving someone like Franken a pass: “playing grab-ass inappropriately with a quasi-peer” is not acceptable behavior, but it’s not in the same league as molesting a child.

  198. 198.

    Miss Bianca

    December 5, 2017 at 6:26 pm

    @Brachiator: What a fascinating modern age we live in, thanks for the info!

    May I ask what your job is, or is that info classfied? : )

  199. 199.

    debbie

    December 5, 2017 at 6:26 pm

    @TenguPhule:

    I loved that the attorney said cake decorators were artists, but wedding invitation designers and wedding planners weren’t. Look out!

  200. 200.

    SFAW

    December 5, 2017 at 6:27 pm

    @raven:

    When UCLA kicked our ass somehow Cal Tech pranksters got control of the scoreboard and put their name up there!

    Someone mentioned that the other day, might have been Omnes. Good to know those pranksters learned something at their Voke.

  201. 201.

    Vhh

    December 5, 2017 at 6:30 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: or the bravery and persistence.

  202. 202.

    SFAW

    December 5, 2017 at 6:32 pm

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Actually, a case can be made that if President Obama hadn’t busted Lying Littledick’s balls at whatever soiree was taking place when Osama bin Laden got whacked, Shitgibbon would not have decided then-and-there to do whatever he could to become the anti-Obama.

    Not saying I subscribe to that belief, but I could probably make a quasi-plausible case.

  203. 203.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2017 at 6:35 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    One theory I’ve seen is that the subjugation of women didn’t really start until humans domesticated animals and men figured out how reproduction works. It was downhill for women from there.

    I don’t think this really makes sense, for a lot of reasons. However, there are some recent studies arguing that rising inequality is connected to the domestication of plants and large animals.

    Researchers at Washington State University and 13 other institutions have found that the arc of prehistory bends towards economic inequality. In the largest study of its kind, the researchers saw disparities in wealth mount with the rise of agriculture, specifically the domestication of plants and large animals, and increased social organization.

    Their findings, published this week in the journal Nature, have profound implications for contemporary society, as inequality repeatedly leads to social disruption, even collapse, said Tim Kohler, lead author and Regents professor of archaeology and evolutionary anthropology at Washington State University. The United States, he noted, currently has one of the highest levels of inequality in the history of the world.

    One problem with this study, for me, is that the authors downplay inequality in the New World, where there were not a good selection of large animals that could be domesticated.

    Also, understanding of reproduction doesn’t really happen until relatively late in history.

    However, sex equals babies, and men monopolizing a woman so that he knows that a child is his may be connected to property rights, having some property to transmit (including property of a tribe as opposed to that of an individual).

  204. 204.

    PAM Dirac

    December 5, 2017 at 6:36 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

    Come sit by me… : )

    Only if mother stays with us.

    Haven’t tried brewing a pyment yet, but tried one from Hunter’s Moon Meadery, their Big Sky Red, that intrigued us, so it’s on the list!

    Sounds like a really interesting place. The creativity in alcohol (beer/wine/meads/distilling) is pretty amazing. Around here the latest thing is trading barrels. The winery uses it than it goes to the brewery then to a distillery and keeps going round. I make pyments because I have my own little vineyard. I planted a few vines of zinfandal because my wife and I like Zin so much and even though I’ll never get a good zin out of Maryland weather, I thought it would be fun to say I grew some zinfandal and made mead from it. Works out pretty well, but the main grape in my pyment is now a vareity called Norton.

  205. 205.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2017 at 6:40 pm

    @SFAW: it’s often said to be one of the major reasons trump finally decided to run and not just talk about it to get attention

    another one is he resented he never got called to talk about politics and the economy on TV in the serious way Warren Buffett does, he wanted to go on TV as more than just the host of a gameshow or whatever the hell that was. He told an early hire that his goal was to come in second in a couple early primaries then drop out and endorse the front-runner, with Republicans owing him favors and respect. His goal was 15% in national polls. Maggie Haberman said recently that the campaign had an exit strategy as late as IIRC September of 16

  206. 206.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2017 at 6:50 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

    May I ask what your job is, or is that info classfied? : )

    I consult for a financial software and information company and help train CPAs and other tax preparers as part of my duties.

  207. 207.

    Ruviana

    December 5, 2017 at 6:51 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Hi, if you’re still around (or even if you’re not) Pierce posted a bunch of stuff all at once again.

  208. 208.

    Miss Bianca

    December 5, 2017 at 6:52 pm

    @PAM Dirac: My brew buddy and I are going to be doing some travelling, probably early spring, out to the east coast – notably western Virginia, but possibly Maryland and Delaware as well. Would love to see your little vineyard! Zinfandel is one of my very favorites – never heard of Norton, is it an American varietal?

    We’ve been wondering what to use for pyment – western Colorado is really good for growing Riesling grapes, for example, which I would love to try, (BB would rather go for a red for our first effort). but even tho’ I love wine I’m woefully uneducated about grape varietals.

    We’ve also been thinking of trying a mead version of retsina, using pinyon resin – not sure whether to try it first with just honey, or try it as a pyment. Ah, decisions, decisions…

  209. 209.

    Mnemosyne

    December 5, 2017 at 6:54 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Maggie Haberman said recently that the campaign had an exit strategy as late as IIRC September of 16

    Almost like he never would have “won” without some outside assistance, innit? ?

  210. 210.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2017 at 6:55 pm

    @SFAW:

    Actually, a case can be made that if President Obama hadn’t busted Lying Littledick’s balls at whatever soiree was taking place when Osama bin Laden got whacked, Shitgibbon would not have decided then-and-there to do whatever he could to become the anti-Obama.

    Trump developed an anti-Obama animus early on. He seemed incensed that a black man could be president.

    Remember that Trump was riding the birther train early. He also was obsessed with the idea that Obama had somehow had his academic record and achievements forged, that he could not possibly be as smart as Trump himself, who was a natural white man.

  211. 211.

    Darrin Ziliak (formerly glocksman)

    December 5, 2017 at 6:58 pm

    @wjs:

    I had the same valve replaced with a St Jude back in 2006.

    The only drawback is the warfarin and INR checks every 4-6 weeks.

    In what must be irony at work, the surgeon later became my GOP Congressman (Larry Buschon IN-08).

  212. 212.

    SFAW

    December 5, 2017 at 7:08 pm

    @Brachiator:

    No, I know Shitgibbon has been a racist for years, perhaps his whole life. But the “Obama insulted me story” appeared during the campaign. Is it true/accurate? Considering Shitgibbon has yet to intentionally speak the truth since he started campaigning, who knows?

    I said “quasi-plausible case,” not “strong case.”

  213. 213.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    December 5, 2017 at 7:09 pm

    @The Dangerman: If you didn’t camp out, you didn’t go to the Rose Parade(I did with folk from my Dykstra floor in 1980).

  214. 214.

    PaulWartenberg

    December 5, 2017 at 7:10 pm

    BREAKING NEWS: You heard it here first!

    Bartow Public Library is finishing the renovations on the first floor faster than expected, and we may open to the public on FRIDAY DECEMBER 8th!!!

  215. 215.

    PAM Dirac

    December 5, 2017 at 7:20 pm

    @Miss Bianca: Let me know. Could be a barrel tasting at my place (just outside of Frederick, MD), but there are lots of very fine wineries roughly along US 15 from the PA-MD border down to Charlottesville. Sometimes it seems we are club members in most of them :-). We are club members at Black Ankle, Old Westminster, Catoctin Breeze, Chrysalis, Orchid Cellar, Zephaniah so those would be free tastings as our guest.

    I’ve made small amounts of pyment with albarino and viognier grapes and they turned out quite well. I think riesling could work very well. I think the trick is coming up with a honey that that has enough flavor to stand up to, but not overpower the grape. Trial and error is fun!

  216. 216.

    Aimai

    December 5, 2017 at 7:22 pm

    @Ohio Mom: take care!

  217. 217.

    MomSense

    December 5, 2017 at 7:25 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    Sending all my best to you and Ohio Dad. Hoping for a successful surgery and a full and speedy recovery.

    Try and snag a pull out (sleeping) chair in the waiting room.

  218. 218.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2017 at 7:33 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Moulton has been a bit of a disappointment. Last fall, I saw him and Jason Kander as potential rising stars. I still feel that way about Kander, but Moulton has faded.

  219. 219.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2017 at 7:36 pm

    @SFAW: It wasn’t me.

  220. 220.

    Sab

    December 5, 2017 at 7:43 pm

    @Brachiator:@TenguPhule: @NotMax: I got very drunk on mead 40 years ago and it makes me squeamish even to think of it now.

  221. 221.

    SFAW

    December 5, 2017 at 7:46 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I still feel that way about Kander, but Moulton has faded.

    Yeah, me too.

  222. 222.

    Tehanu

    December 5, 2017 at 7:52 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Best of luck to you and Ohio Dad. Cardiac surgery is really almost miraculously effective nowadays.

  223. 223.

    Tehanu

    December 5, 2017 at 8:13 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    She [Ivana] suggested the name Donald, Jr., and her husband hesitated: “What if he’s a loser?” he asked.

    I could almost feel sorry for Donald Jr. after reading that. Unfortunately both his upbringing and his heredity made him an asshole.

    @SiubhanDuinne: Not sure, but I noticed a complaint today that his posts appear (under “Esquire Politics”) on Facebook much faster than they do on the actual Esquire site. So try that.

  224. 224.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2017 at 8:29 pm

    @Tehanu: not only did his father say it, his mother wrote in a book, that she published, that she wants people to read, so that she can make money

  225. 225.

    Ohio Mom

    December 5, 2017 at 8:30 pm

    I fell asleep soon after I left my comment (reading in bed will do that to me) — now up again and want to say, Thank you all very, very much for all the good wishes. It really means a lot to me.

    Also glad to hear of the successful valve replacements. Makes it feel more real that the surgery and recovery will go smoothly.

    Note to the commentators with the St Jude valves: Ohio Dad is getting a cow valve. He’ll only be on warfarin for a couple of months. Either way, it is amazing that they can replace part of your heart, isn’t it?

  226. 226.

    Amir Khalid

    December 5, 2017 at 11:29 pm

    @Politically Lost:

    Jake Tapper and CNN are citing presidential sources saying that has not happened.

    “Presidential sources”, whoever they may be, are not close to the Special Counsel’s investigation and are in no position to speak authoritatively about what it is/is not doing.

  227. 227.

    NJDave

    December 6, 2017 at 9:41 am

    @jl: And an ex-banker friend said that Josh Marshall is exactly right.

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