So, Senator Al Franken is scheduled to make a statement on the floor of the US Senate at 11:45 ET (C-SPAN link). He’ll probably resign. And because he’s basically a good guy and a strong Democrat, he’ll likely do so in a way that reaffirms the party’s commitment to equality for women and underscores the Republicans’ hypocrisy on the issue.
If he resigns, I’ll be sorry to see Al go. I’ve always liked him — he’s funny, smart, almost always right on the issues and can draw a map of the United States freehand. I have two or three of his books on my shelves. My favorite Franken quote comes from Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them. It’s about the difference in how liberals and conservatives love America:
“We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America like a 4-year-old loves his mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a 4-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad and helping your loved one grow.”
That’s true about patriotism, and it’s also true to some extent about political parties, which is why Republicans are fine with electing a man who has been credibly accused of child molestation and attempted rape (and that smirking creep from Texas who used taxpayer funds to pay off accusers) and Democrats are cleaning house — over-zealously, according to many.
Personally, I’m conflicted about Franken’s case for a whole bunch of reasons that I’ve expressed in other threads and therefore won’t bother rehashing in this post. But I do have a request, which, to paraphrase Ulysses McGill, is probably the “acme of foolishness” to make on this blog: Can we elevate the discussion a tad and try to keep it free of bad faith assumptions about fellow Democrats?
Can we entertain the possibility that people might have reasons other than rank stupidity or opportunism to believe Franken should resign? Can we stipulate that those who believe Franken should remain in the senate care deeply about addressing sexual harassment? At least until they say something that indicates otherwise? Because this issue is important. I’m willing to try if you are. Anyhoo, have at it.
Just the Facts
Hear, hear.
Arclite
I think Al should resign just as soon as President Trump and SCOTUS judge Clarence Thomas do.
schrodingers_cat
@Arclite: Agreed.
Psych1
Can we entertain the possibility that people might have reasons other than rank stupidity or opportunism to believe Franken should resign?
OK I tried to do it but it didn’t work.
Corner Stone
Finally! The thread I have been waiting for. Now I can get some cereal and have a nice relaxing breakfast.
MJS
Can we? Absolutely. Will we? Doubtful.
Corner Stone
Just like you can’t be a good Christian if you didn’t vote for GWB, you can’t be a good Democrat if you don’t want Franken to resign.
CindyH
@Arclite: I don’t think he should resign until after an ethics investigation – the public discussion of this issue needs to happen and it needs to cover the most minor offenses to the most egregious. If he resigns before an ethics investigation, it won’t happen and we’ll stay where we are with kangaroo courts on the internet.
Immanentize
I was thinking about this question — one of the things that Schumer said was that he thought Franken was doing his constituents a disservice by staying in the Senate. What if Franken resigned, triggering a new election in November 2018, and ran again for the position. Would that be politically horrible? Or would it allow the constituents (like with Moore) the opportunity for a fresh say with a full vetting of all the charges?
Ohio Mom
Well, if he is making a statement, he must be resigning because you don’t make a statement to reiterate that you are waiting for an ethics investigation.
Sigh. I’ll miss him. Though the reason I’ll miss him is I trust his judgement as a Senator, so I have to trust he’s taking the right action now.
Elizabelle
Cruise the Fuck the Fucking NY Times comments, Gillibrand’s home newspaper. They’re running like 10:1 that Franken should stay. She is way out ahead of her constituents.
I am ashamed of Democrats for throwing a good senator under the bus without an ethics investigation. The accusers and accusations are sketchy, and not worthy of capital punishment, as is being doled out.
Disgusted with Democrats, and the women senators leading the charge. Mostly, this has taught me that, while Republicans will protect their own, no matter how awful, Democrats will cut and run and head for the insufficient oxygen of the “higher road.”
Voters want a party that will fight for them. This is not it.
Is that a terrible comment? Maybe so. But this bothers me more than anything that has happened in months. And we have seen some shit.
Anotherlurker
@Immanentize: This makes sense.
The Moar You Know
The problem is, WRT Franken, there are a slew of fellow Democrats who are, in fact, acting in bad faith. And quite a few posters here.
For me to ignore that is not possible. We may be losing one of the better Senators we’ve elected in my lifetime without even giving him the benefit of a hearing. That is wrong.
Corner Stone
And as I quoted in a previous thread, why isn’t she saying this exact same thing about Trump?
Knight of Nothing
Thank you, Betty Cracker, for your kind words about my senator and for your thoughtful introduction to this topic.
Amaranthine RBG
Here’s what he should say
I may have touched someone’s butt or waist while posing for pictures. Big fucking deal. Rape and harassment is really really really bad yo, but this shit is getting out of hand . I welcome an investigation
Meanwhile the idiots in Alabama are about to elect a guy who felt up and assaulted teenage girls while he was a district attorney. Let’s imvestigate him while I’m being investigated
You dumbasses need to get a grip.
Gin & Tonic
Ha!
Corner Stone
@Immanentize: One issue with that scenario is that the MN Gov will almost certainly nominate a woman for the position. So if he is primarying a sitting woman Sen, how do you think that will go for him?
Archon
If Democrats genuinely think Franken should step down because it’s the right thing to do then so be it. If they think doing the right thing will benefit Democrats politically then they are bigger fools then I thought.
Elizabelle
@The Moar You Know: I agree. I think it’s rush to judgment and bad faith.
This one breaks my heart.
debit
@The Moar You Know: Yes, this. I’m his constituent and I want him to stay and have the ethics investigation proceed.
Also, too, I’ll try to be civil, but if that asshole Trentrunner shows up and runs his mouth all bets are off.
Elizabelle
@Amaranthine RBG: Associate myself 100% with your comment. Dumbasses is the word. Cowards is another.
Cheryl Rofer
Here’s CNN’s report on how the Senate Democrats turned yesterday.
Elizabelle
@debit: If so, he will be pied so fast his meringue will not have time to set.
What are you hearing from your fellow Minnesotans?
Corner Stone
“It’s my right as an entertainer.”
That right there defines the absurdity of this whole thing. Does anyone think Franken would say that, basically ever?
MomSense
@Elizabelle:
It’s like we learned nothing from what happened to Shirley Sherrod, Acorn, Hillary Clinton. Did you see what Tom Arnold tweeted yesterday?
Brachiator
Good intentions don’t matter much if you surrender the power to actually do good.
It does appear that the Democratic women senators are united in their belief that Franken should go. And, from a current news story:
Obviously the pressure is mounting.
Actually, I can’t. I don’t. Unless there is something more to be revealed, I don’t see any sense of proportionality here. The suggested punishment does not seem to fit the alleged offenses.
And unfortunately, politics is a ruthless business, and the Republicans are not giving any quarter. The Democrats don’t seem to understand this at all.
Corner Stone
“Own the moral high ground”
Knight of Nothing
@Immanentize: theoretically, this idea has merit. But I don’t think he can overcome current opinion in Minnesota. People here took a very dim view of the picture of him pretending to grope Tweeden while she slept, before any other accusations had been made. Sadly, I think his career in electoral politics is over. But he can still make a difference as a public speaker, fundraiser, and advocate.
bemused
If he resigns, it’s likely he will be tearful. He tends to cry easily. Heck, even if he doesn’t resign, he’ll probably be in tears.
geg6
@CindyH:
This.
Elizabelle
@Cheryl Rofer: I believe the “final” accuser is Tina Dupuy in The Atlantic. I’ve read about half of the article, and so far there is no there there. It’s two squeezes on the waist during a photo.
Big whoop. She spends most of her article setting up her creds as a Democrat.
Immanentize
@Corner Stone: I do see that, but I believe he is capable of threading that needle through smarts, humility and his amazing work ethic. But would his opponent? Unclear. The Minn. Democratic party would have something to say about it of course.
Bruce K
I was skeptical about the first accusation, because I thought I smelled something of the stink of Project Veritas about it, but the numerous subsequent accusations … this is about the point where, wearing my lawyer hat, I’d suggest taking whatever deal the prosecution was offering.
And who knows? Maybe he can step away in a manner that’ll do a bit of good.
(Part of me wonders what the reaction would be if he announced that he would resign immediately after Doug Jones is sworn in as the junior Senator from Alabama.)
geg6
@Elizabelle:
Couldn’t agree more.
debit
@Elizabelle: The same: let the investigation happen. But he’s been thrown under the “we must be better than this” bus so I guess it’s pointless.
bemused
@Knight of Nothing:
And a lot of people here in MN don’t view the pic the same way you do.
Cephalus Max
I’m not sure about “elevating” the discussion, but other than that, well said, Betty.
Elizabelle
@MomSense: Vague idea. Kind of late, Tom.
But the train had already left the station, on the wrong tracks.
Roger Stone et al played the Democrats, masterfully. Because some “leaders” still have not figured out the game.
Do you think Obama is sitting around wishing he’d taken the high road more with the Republicans? Especially over Merrick Garland? I kind of think he is not.
Corner Stone
@Knight of Nothing: From the start I have been mystified by why people thought the picture was some kind of horrible incident?
Knight of Nothing
@bemused: the last poll showed he had only 22% support.
Elizabelle
@Knight of Nothing: What poll, and by whom?
Corner Stone
@Elizabelle: When they go low, we go high.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Corner Stone: You should’ve read some of the comments over at LGM about that pic when if first came out. I mean wow.
HeleninEire
Does someone have a live link? Betty’s link goes to CSPAN, but not to Frankin and I can’t find a Frankin link there
rikyrah
Paul Ryan eyes Medicare cuts, and he thinks Trump may help
12/07/17 11:06 AM—UPDATED 12/07/17 11:11 AM
By Steve Benen
…………………………………………………………..
There’s a lot to this, but let’s focus on just two angles. The first is recognizing the audacity of Paul Ryan’s shameless scam.
The House Speaker apparently expects Americans to believe it’s important to “tackle the debt and the deficit,” despite the fact that Ryan voted for both of George W. Bush’s tax cuts, both of George W. Bush’s wars in the Middle East, Medicare Part D, and the Wall Street bailout – none of which Republicans even tried to pay for.
More to the point, if the Wisconsin congressman had even the slightest interest in balancing the budget, he wouldn’t be championing a tax plan that adds $1 trillion to the deficit over the next decade. It’s a bit like listening to an arsonist demand money to rebuild the home he just burned to the ground: the person responsible for creating the problem shouldn’t whine about how eager he is to get others to fix the problem.
But the other part of this is Trump’s intentions. It’s quite likely that he’s president today because he promised the nation that, his party’s orthodoxy notwithstanding, he wouldn’t cut the core pillars of the social-insurance state.
Trump has already expressed a willingness to ignore part of that commitment, embracing the Republican Party’s health care plan, which included brutal Medicaid cuts. The president’s budget also included cuts to Social Security, though they targeted disability insurance, not retirees’ benefits. (Trump’s far-right budget director, Mick Mulvaney, told an incredible story in September in which he bragged about tricking the president into ignoring his campaign promise.)
And now Paul Ryan wants Trump to agree to Medicare cuts, and the Speaker believes he’s “begun convincing” the president to go along with the plan. Given Trump’s willingness to ignore so many of his other commitments, and the ease with which the president takes aim at the interests of those he vowed to protect, it’s likely Ryan is correct about the efficacy of his pitch.
Gelfling 545
@CindyH I agree. The ethics investigation would do more to advance systemic change regarding harassment than the summary “off with his head” approach. And if an sob IS guilty of such behavior, let him sit there in committee and be shamed in front of god and everybody.
Yarrow
MSNBC fell for Cernovich’s attempted ratfucking of Sam Seder and fired him. Now they have reversed their decision.
It would be nice if our elected Dems could at least acknowledge there’s a possibility Franken is being ratfucked by the same kinds of people.
Cheryl Rofer
@HeleninEire: Try this.
different-church-lady
Surely this will address the anxiety felt by the white working class.
Immanentize
@Knight of Nothing: That is a bullshit reading of the poll:
Or, to put it another way, 48% believe he should stay in office until the ethics review is complete while only 33% want him to resign. Big undecided there…
As my Dad used to say, Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.
ETA Linky
ruemara
Bear with me. I think the initial accusation was ridiculous. I find the fact that there’s now several to be concerning. I find Tina Dupuy to be a horrible drama queen tacking on for her own ego. I’d prefer an investigation, if only because Tom Arnold was on twitter saying he knew Tweeden and also knew she has been coached to make accusation by Stone. It enrages me that sexual assault & harassment are being weaponized by the party that would make it legal. That bothers me more than Franken. I think the investigative process should be much, much faster on these. In all the industry gossip, I’ve never heard a bad word about Franken. Everyone who’s been as big, you hear stuff. He’s never had that reputation. Dupuy and he were professional buddies so her article is insane to me. It’s a loss that someone who worked so hard to shift over into a new career that he excelled in, has been run right out. But, that’s politics. You don’t give anyone the gun to aim at you. He’s a better soldier than most and I expect this to be a fall on your sword resignation. I think he should clear his name, but that’s up to him.
History marches on. Having faves and heroes is a fools game. They’re people. They will disappoint you at some point. You either deal with it or fall apart. I hate to be that cold on it, but I am not here to die on the hill of Al Franken. He has money, fame and to quote Rod Morrow, “No one is ever really canceled”. He’ll be back on the world’s stage in a year or so, scarred but not gone. The real work is done on the ground by regular folks. So you don’t need Franken. You just need to ensure people understand their government is there responsibility. And leave the superhero fanboyism once you get past puberty.
FlipYrWhig
@Elizabelle: Was that the “handful of flesh” story? That one seems to purposefully confuse grabbing the butt and grabbing around the waist awkwardly. I am not a woman; I’d like to think I take women’s concerns seriously. That said, calling someone squeezing A WAIST inappropriate is over-the-moon loony.
Corner Stone
What happens to the people who work in Franken’s office? Do they catch on elsewhere? Just go back home?
Knight of Nothing
@Corner Stone: We have a hard time getting conservatives to understand what “consent” means. A sleeping person cannot consent to being the object of a joke. To me, it just shows an incredible lack of respect — he’s not a teenager or a college frat boy. At the time of the picture, he was a married, middle-aged man who had decided to run for the senate. This was not a part of the show; it was a hazing of sorts.
MJS
@Immanentize: Actually, I thought it was 36 percent wanted him to wait for the investigation, making it 58% who want him to stay. Maybe I read it wrong.
GregB
Trump, Roy Moore and Blake Farenthold give Franken a standing ovation.
JR
@Gelfling 545: I’m strongly in favor of the ethics investigation as well.
BUT, it goes without saying that this option has been discussed by elected democrats and they found it wanting. Perhaps they anticipate (or are aware of) worse accusations coming down the pike. Maybe they think the ethics investigation will be a morass that will cause more harm than good (politically, of course) and that Franken is not the hill they want to die on.
Maybe their calculation is more cynical — a Franken resignation comes with less pain given that he represents Minnesota, and forcing him out puts the heat back on the GOP for Moore et al.
I have no idea.
Bill
Last time I waded in to this debate here I regretted it, but Franken is doing the right thing. There are other smart, strong progressives in Minnesota who can serve.
Cheryl Rofer
@ruemara: Well said.
geg6
@Immanentize:
I seem to remember someone prominent who had a book…something about lying liars and the lies they tell. Something like that.
JR
@ruemara:
QFT
Immanentize
<a href="“>Linky for poll
Elizabelle
Just left a message at Gillibrand’s office about how disgusted I am with the rush to judgment, and that she’s out ahead of her constituents. Like they will care about someone calling from Germany with a California area code. Point is, though, it’s an expensive call and I was bothered enough to make it.
Buffalo. 716 854 9725
Raoul
His announcement speech is good. Sad and frustrating, but good.
I hope he is serious about staying in the public eye. He could run and fundraise for an ass-kicking progressive think tank. Or chair the board of Planned Parenthood of MN+ND+SD, or things like that.
Go get ’em, Al.
patroclus
This is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen in politics. Of course he shouldn’t resign. In a democratic republic, voters decide things; not lynch mobs. He should face the voters of Minnesota – other Senators, absent expulsion events, should not decide who serves there. The Democrats are idiotically throwing a good Senator away and risking losing the seat in 2018.
different-church-lady
@Corner Stone: They commit ritual seppuku due to the deep shame they feel over his actions. Their assets are forfeited to Roy Moore’s campaign.
Knight of Nothing
@Immanentize: I read the poll wrong, my apologies.
Elizabelle
@JR: Which all comes down to: Democratic office holders: you are expendable. Do not count on us to cover your back.
Great message for candidate recruitment.
hellslittlestangel
All things considered, it’s a sad day. I thought he would have made a great 2020 VP candidate.
On to December 12th, a day which will gladden our hearts. Or live in infamy. Who the fuck knows?
Emma
As I said in the Sally Ride thread, we should in the final stretch vote for the democrstic presidential candidate. But those of us who are sick and tired of our cowardly/opportunistic/supermoral upper tier should simply concentrate on local candidates and races. Take back the states beginning at the local level.
John
The Leeann Tweeden accusation is pure bullshit. The photo she presented as evidence of groping does not actually show him groping her and is at best evidence of immaturity. Most of the other accusations are from anonymous accusers and were introduced by conservative news outlets. The rest are suspicious as hell. Why does anyone buy the story of this woman from Texas that Franken groped her at the state fair? The latest accusation that supposedly spurred the female Senators to action is ridiculous. He put his hand on the waist of the anonymous accuser while they were taking a photo. M’okay…
This whole thing stinks of a ratfucking operation and given Tom Arnold’s tweet yesterday about Roger Stone coaching Leeann Tweeden prior to her “revelation” I’d say the stink is coming from some real shitheels. Franken is enough of a realist that he understands that he’s compromised now, but his resignation will be a win for disingenuous scumbags.
The Moar You Know
The pie filter list only displays 23 people that you are blocking. Mine’s at least double that, and almost all those names have been added in the last two days.
schrodingers_cat
@ruemara: Its not about making Franken a superhero, IMHO this sets a bad precedent, when there are two sets of rules for two parties. This is a self inflicted wound.
Franken goes if the molesters and worse in the other party go to.
Corner Stone
Such a waste.
Immanentize
@ruemara: As ever, a very persuasive and sensitive take on the issue. Thank you.
different-church-lady
@hellslittlestangel:
Which may be what this is really all about.
Oh well, at least he didn’t have to go through 30 years of it.
Elizabelle
FTF NYTimes says Franken is out.
Betty Cracker
Good speech, Senator Franken.
piratedan
only a couple of issues with owning the moral high ground, the property values are notoriously fickle and my understanding is that they only have septic service there and hooking up to municipal services is a nightmare….
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: in the next few weeks. Not today.
HeleninEire
@Cheryl Rofer: Thank you
different-church-lady
@Betty Cracker: Former Senator Franken.
geg6
Gotta love all this anti-democratic love here on my side. This is why we can’t have nice things. Kirsten Gillibrand decides he must go, so he must go. Fuck due process, fuck the voters of MN, Queen Kirsten has spoken!
Fuck her. She used to be a Republican. Never trusted her and now I never will.
Sab
@ruemara: Thanks you for this comment.
Villago Delenda Est
Sorry, the people screaming for Franken to resign are giving Roger Stone precisely what he wants.
Morons.
WarMunchkin
@Raoul:
What, why?
bemused
@Knight of Nothing:
Pfft.
Corner Stone
@Raoul: It doesn’t matter anymore. He is done. He is guilty forever and ever. No one will want anything to do with him in public.
different-church-lady
@piratedan: “Why, you can even get stucco. Oh, how you can get stuck-o!“
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I’m going to run my ass out on a limb and opine that one of our deep national problems is that our predominant white Christian culture is naively prudish on issues of sexual conduct, and this naïveté deprives people of the emotional and rhetorical tools they could use to effectively rebuff unwelcome advances while still allowing them the ability to pair (or group together – boom chicka bow wow) with people that they are attracted to, whether short or long term.
We inundate people with sexual imagery, but then say “don’t do that”. We tell people that they can self-actualize their sexual desires, but then paternalistically say “not in the workplace” and “don’t be a slut”.
The rot of Savonarola, Jean Calvin, Billy Sunday and the like has deep roots in this society. People should feel free to tell anyone, even a boss, to fuck the fuck off – I don’t want you.
joel hanes
@MomSense:
Shirley Sherrod, Acorn, Hillary Clinton
Jocelyn Elders
Knight of Nothing
@Betty Cracker: agreed.
TenguPhule
This day will live in infamy.
The Democratic party, the Democratic Women Senators of the Party, just blew up our own Pearl Harbor.
Thanks for nothing, you power hungry morons.
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: Republicans protect their own. Democrats eat our own. It’s shameful and stupid and disgusting.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
Today, December 7, is a day that will live in infamy.
SenyorDave
@ruemara: if only because Tom Arnold was on twitter saying he knew Tweeden and also knew she has been coached to make accusation by Stone.
Tom Arnold, seriously?
The same Tom Arnold who says he has outtakes from the Apprentice with Trump making racist remarks. I believe they might exist, but they’d be worth millions and Arnold would have been peddling them to the highest bidder 12 seconds after he uncovered them.
schrodingers_cat
Congratulations on the own goal, those of you who wanted Franken to resign.
eric
I believe in the Law of Unintended Consequences. I want to believe that a now-unshackled Al Franken will prove a powerful and humorous foil for Trump.
Jack the Second
I think his colleagues in the Senate kind of forced his hand; once half your coworkers say you should resign it kills your working relationship with them if nothing else. I’m kind of curious if they did it from insider knowledge or because of optics.
I think that calls for investigation and accountability are the way this should be handled, not just blanket calls for resignation. I think Conyers resigned so quickly because he knew he was guilty, or guilty enough, that any prolonged spotlight would not have done him any good. Meanwhile, I think Franken thought he was innocent, or innocent enough, that any prolonged investigation would exonerate him. Now we’ll probably never know; I mean, if we follow the last page of the B section of the newspaper we might find some tidbit about whether anything came of the allegations, maybe, but we’ll never know if he would have been exonerated in public opinion, or if once a politician is stained with accusation it’s all over.
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone:
And like good Germans, they will be shocked, shocked, that their actions led to so many bad things happening to other people.
different-church-lady
SURELY THE VOTERS WILL NOW REWARD US WITH ELECTORAL GAINS IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE!! CERTAINLY, IT IS A FACT OF THE MORAL HIGH GROUND!!!
Schlemazel
Nice work Dems! Once again you attack us and do the GOPs dirty work that they built on lies and slander. Once again you give the hammer to the people who only intend to do us all harm. Once again you walk – hell, ran – away from us to help the GOP. And what will this “victory” give us? A warm feeling? Yeah, the warm feeling like pissing in our pants. You have the moral high ground, all alone & losing all the important fight but fuck all that, you are pure
Emma
As far as I am concerned if it turns out that this is a republican ratfuck I expect each and everyone of those senators to apologize to Franken on bended knees. And I will vote for one of them for president if it is the last resort but I will not donate or volunteer.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Anthony Weiner – prison. Roy Moore – endorsed by POTUS, likely to go the the Senate.
Gary Hart, John Edwards – done in. Newt Gingrich got to be Speaker, David Vitter a Senator.
TenguPhule
@eric:
I do too.
And I believe its now OPEN SEASON on every Democrat in office. Everywhere.
And Republicans have no bag limit.
Elizabelle
The NY Times reader comments, 85 now, and the ones I read are all against the resignation. Every last one. They know a dirty trick when they see one.
Gillibrand and the ladies just shat their own damn bed. So disgusted.
different-church-lady
@eric: I would rather have a congressional foil for Trump.
By the way, kiss that seat goodbye in special election.
TenguPhule
@Emma:
We’ll be lucky if we get apologies on this blog.
eric
@TenguPhule: Alas, that is an intended consequence of the ratfuck.
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: It’s breaking my heart, too, Elizabelle. So much that has happened is happening because Republicans control everything and there isn’t much of anything we can do about it. But this ratfucking, we are aiding in their destruction. I am in tears over politics for the first time since I figured out a way to get out of bed and function with Trump as president. .This is heartbreaking.
mai naem mobile
This is really depressing. . Fuck the asshole amoral GOP and fuck the Dems for being the shittiest bunch of politicians who don’t know how to punch back. I can’t even handle watching MSNBC anymore.
Raoul
We have the situation we have. He has done what I think, very sadly, he felt he had to do, which is to remove himself from the screaming monkey cage.
That said, we cannot just go forward as Dems and progressives with this ad hoc ‘process’. Why was 5 accusations OK to hold out to and ethics investigation, but 6 or 7 not? That’s totally arbitrary. It appears the ethics investigation hadn’t actually started. Why was that?
If we are to have a cohesive policy and party, a defined process has to be established now. And Dems have to do their damndest to at least rhetorically hold the GOP to whatever standard is post haste produced.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
And if the Gods do not end the electoral drought, ANOTHER DEMOCRAT MUST HAVE THEIR HEART RIPPED FROM THEIR CHEST IN SACRIFICE TO APPEASE THEM.
We are all Aztecs now.
Brachiator
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
It ain’t just white Christians. But I largely agree with you here.
No Drought No More
The single redeeming aspect of a Franken resignation will be to provide a study in contrasts between the two party’s. Given the GOP has written off America’s hispanic vote for a few generations as well, it’s not an inconsiderable calculation. The flip side of that coin is in stripping the voters of Minnesota of their franchise, which is the real cost of this publicly coerced demonstration of party rectitude.
But I’d like to know something. Where were these outraged senators when Hillary, and Kerry, and Gephart, and Daschle all shredded the democratic party’s reputation with their support of Bush/Cheney’s successful plot to wage a ground war in the mideast? Why aren’t these same senators today training their outrage upon the REAL ENEMY, that is, the American fascists of the republican party?
If those senators are serious people, they’ll quit jerking around trying to impress Americans as being the oh-so-stalwart defenders of democratic party in-house matters, and confront the mortal enemy of American democracy with a will to kill it. At this point in time, anything less than the total destruction of the GOP as a national power- i.e., events such as this “feel good” business of running Franken out of town- is a inconsequential side show, and all the more dangerous for being one.
Peale
@JR: Its the dumbest political calculation. Seriously. To increase Doug Jones chances in Alabama, you put a seat in Minnesota at risk? Because now instead of running an election in 2020 when Dems at least show up, you have to run an election in an off year? And seriously, whoever is senator from Alabama should not have any bearing on who is Senator in Minnesota. You are giving up something you have for something you do not have now and aren’t likely to have. And its a Senate seat. These aren’t cheap things and once you have them, you should act like they are important to you.
WaterGirl
@Corner Stone: When they go low, we shove our own out of a moving bus.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
I’m bitter about this. Take the high ground? Change the “conversation”? Let’s see if any of that happens. Will R’s reject Blake F or Roy Moore? What happens in a closely divided Senate?
Amir Khalid
Damn. It seems to me that Al Franken deserves better than resignation in ignominy.
mai naem mobile
Leanne Tweeden or whatever the fuck her name was is probably getting some extra poyout from the Mercers.
Schlemazel
@GregB:
fuck you with a rust chainsaw asshole
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I think as a show of good faith, Dayton should select Tim Pawlenty’s choice to s eve in Franken’s stead. Take the high road, y’know.
eric
@WaterGirl: under. repeatedly.
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle:
Yep. Our party has learned absolutely NOTHING from 2016.
We’re gonna lose in 2018 to GOP ratfucking at this rate. And unless we start seeing Democrats with actual spines and some damn loyalty to each other in office, 2020 isn’t going to buck that trend.
As it stands now, we are completely fucked.
Davebo
@TenguPhule:
Lo Siento Mucho
Schlemazel
@Bill:
Name one please
cleek
@The Moar You Know:
i don’t think there’s any limit set in the filter itself. maybe your browser is refusing to show a message box with more than 23 lines?
Miss Bianca
@Cheryl Rofer: OK, so the tipping point came from something that happened before he was elected Senator? Not since? Jesus Chicken-Fried Christ. I am throroughly disgusted by these women.
Cacti
Al Franken is gone with a whimper. Donald Trump is still POTUS, Clarence Thomas is still on SCOTUS, Joe Barton and Blake Farenthold are still Congressmen, Roy Moore will shortly be a Senator.
And we wonder why we ALWAYS FUCKING LOSE.
PJ
@ruemara: We all need effective representation in Congress. Unfortunately, this is not what most of our representatives supply. Franken’s replacement is not going to be grilling Sessions on his lying to Congress, or advocating for net neutrality. She is going to be sitting back and dutifully voting the way she is told to vote for the next year. If you think all senators, or all Democratic senators are alike, I don’t know what to say to you.
Furthermore, this is just the beginning. Roger Stone was successful with his first cut. Many more accusations will be made over the next year, and the Democrats have shown they will not defend themselves.
AliceBlue
Dammit, dammit, dammit.
I hope all the ladies–his accusers and the women senators–are happy now. I especially hope that the snowflake who was so traumatized by an arm around her waist can find some peace.
I haven’t felt like this since election night. Goddamit.
Trollhattan
Can’t help but feel we’re being played, only by skilled operatives instead of Roger Stone types. It seems Nixonesque.
I will miss him.
TenguPhule
@Bill:
The Admiral at the battle of Midway is relieved of duty and an ensign straight out of the academy is your solution to replace him. Kiss your Democratic Carriers and Net Neutrality goodbye.
The Moar You Know
@Elizabelle: Funny you should mention that. I’d been contemplating a local run, local state assembly Repub who never has a challenger. Shenanigans have ensued with the local party (we have at least two of our own local versions of Gillibrand here, one of which is almost certainly a Republican who is hiding it) so I was pretty sure I wasn’t going to do it, but watching Franken get hung out to dry has been the final clincher.
You’d have to be an idiot to run for a Dem office this cycle. One word from some paid shill and your entire base is going to be trying to hang you from a lamp post. Maybe this will have calmed down by 2020, but I suspect when panic sets in after 2018, we’re going to circular firing squad all our good people.
We can run Sanders/Sarandon 2020 and watch us get single digit returns. But they will be the purest results ever.
Schlemazel
@SenyorDave:
Except he was saying this BEFORE the first charge was made. So, either he knew something was up or he is one hell of a guesser
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@AliceBlue:
And let the backlash begin, please.
schrodingers_cat
@Miss Bianca: Some of our FPers have also been on Franken should resign bandwagon.
different-church-lady
Now we can finally get on with the critical business of making Bill Clinton retroactively resign.
Cacti
They go low, we shoot our own in the back.
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: I just left a long message, saying exactly how I feel in no uncertain terms. Better she shows her lack of judgment and lack of spine now than if it had been closer to 2020. Ugh.
TenguPhule
@No Drought No More:
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Oh wait, you’re serious.
No, the media is now going to give us ALL OF THE BLAME AND NONE OF THE CREDIT.
ruemara
@Cheryl Rofer: Means a lot coming from you, thanks.
@schrodingers_cat: For many, he is. That’s what having a fave is like. It’s why you can’t look at Bernie Sanders and say, “he’s got good big ideas, but he can’t policy his way out of a paper bag-he should work on that”. It’s not that Franken is a superhero, it’s that he’s a fave and this hurts. I have 3 Franken books in my library. He taught me a lot about what was wrong in the Reagan & Bush administrations, I grew up on his Air America show. This is a perfect media trap. Him staying is damaging. Him leaving is also damaging – but he can be replaced.
People. There was no good way out of this. And him not resigning was not going to prevent this from happening again. This has worked against Dems for decades. Republicans literally have to be trafficking in pages and THEN get a jail term for paying bribe money. This is going to be a brutal game for years. The consequences of discussing any issue in the public sphere is that the same issue can be turned against you. Please not how much of the civil rights language that helped in the ’60’s is turned against Dems on issues like free speech for nazis, concealed carry, anti-abortion groups, and religious bigotry. Language is powerful and they’ve spent decades twisting words and corrupting minds. The point is, move on and build up a reserve of good candidates and make it clear to them that they’re having to do things the black way – twice as good for half the reward. The goal is the America that can be, and that has to be the reward.
Mike in Pasadena
@Knight of Nothing: Your last sentence is highly unlikely after the way he has been savaged by the Democrats.
d58826
I’m conflicted also. The moral high ground is nice but it has 0 votes in the Senate (I know a D will fill the seat) and most voters donot seem to care about the moral high ground. If Moore wins on Tue. that will be the final proof
of that
The Moar You Know
@cleek: that’s actually what I was trying to say, very poorly. I know damn well there’s more than 23 nyms in it.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer: When the Civil Breakdown comes, Republicans will simply accuse half the Democrats of sexual misconduct and the other half will cheerfully shoot them in the back.
Yoda Dog
@ruemara: Thank you. Everybody needs to chill the fuck out a little bit, imho. We’re going to be alright, folks. For fuck sakes. Al Franken is one democratic vote soon to be replaced by another. He’s not going to matter next November. We are going to fucking roll them next year and then go from there. This changes next to nothing.
debit
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Oh, I know! It should be Norm Coleman! He’s an ass grabber from way back, but it’s okay because he only does it when he’s drunk and only grabs Republican lady asses.
Mnemosyne
And just to add to what everyone else is saying:
Because Trump and Moore deny they acted badly, and Franken accepted responsibility for becoming a distraction, the narrative is now, Democrats are perverts, while Republicans are fine, upstanding men who get viciously and unfairly attacked.
We are so screwed now. Thanks, Democratic women!
rikyrah
Does Trump have ‘a full understanding’ of his new Israel policy?
12/07/17 08:40 AM
By Steve Benen
When Donald Trump delivered remarks yesterday announcing his new U.S. policy in Israel, the president seemed eager to tell the world how impressed he is with himself. “While previous presidents have made this a major campaign promise,” he said, “they failed to deliver. Today, I am delivering.”
Ordinarily, when a president announces a dramatic shift in foreign policy, he’ll explain why the change advances U.S. interests. Yesterday, however, Trump didn’t bother. Indeed, a Washington Post report suggested he may not fully understand what he just did.
joel hanes
@No Drought No More:
support of Bush/Cheney’s successful plot to wage a ground war in the mideast?
Either you are quite young, or this is disingenuous.
Hindsight is 20/20, but foresight is always murky.
The AUMF vote was never presented as if it would give the Bushies carte blanche to initiate an open-ended war of aggression, nor as a warrant to seize Iraq’s oil resources, and it was not yet clear at that time that the entire W administration was lying or deluded about WMDs.
Josh Marshall, for one, was on the ‘yes’ side, as were many centrists.
So those voting yes were mistaken, but not necessarily evil. W cheated them, and you’re blaming the victims.
WaterGirl
@geg6: Call the number that Elizabelle listed above. I called and left a message.
Trollhattan
@different-church-lady:
Sardonic laughter for this.
NobodySpecial
I’m not going to impugn anyone here, or even Al Franken. This is just another of those moments that crystallizes that the world is changing. What was acceptable in a world dominated by male voters isn’t going to fly in a world where more women vote than men, Republicans won’t try their people as hard as Democrats will – but they never do, so no sense in trying to compare apples to oranges. Best just to remember that our base doesn’t like mistreatment much – and Democrats have been the party for women since at least the time of Bill Clinton, despite white women continuing to split about 50-50.
He was a good Senator and a reliable Democratic vote, his replacement will more than likely be a good Senator and a reliable Democratic vote. Hopefully the next part of his life he can move on to a happier fortune.
bemused
@eric:
Oh, I think he will. If I can’t have Franken as my senator, an unshackled Franken will be something to look forward to.
sherparick
@Psych1: 1) It has been open season on Democrats since Nixon ratfucked the Muskie campaign. Democratic and progressives need be aware of it and realize that there is the double standard “IOKIYAR” and “IACIYAD” for a long time; tough the world is not fair. 2. Franken was obviously a “toucher” and generally his victims were women he just casually met or work for a short time with and did not expect to see again. 3. His offenses are not Trump level, Moore level, Weinstein level, or Spacey level (which are actual crimes), but they are offenses that women should not have to put up with and that the party whose base consists of women and minorities should not put up with. If you can read Tina Dupuy’s column, and still think Franken should stay in the Senate with his credibility and moral character shot, go for it. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/i-believe-frankens-accusers-because-he-groped-me-too/547691/
Elizabelle
@WaterGirl: I think two careers ended today. One of them is Gillibrand’s.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
patroclus
Tammy Duckworth, who I volunteered for, was a member of this anti-democratic anti-rule of law lynch mob, just lost my vote.
TenguPhule
@Bruce K:
All of which were even SKETCHIER then the first one. Which is saying something.
So the floor for any Democrat in office to resign is
3 Republican accusers.
4 anon accusers.
1 completely discredited idiot of an accuser.
What could possibly go wrong with that?
Jeffro
On an only-slightly-Senate-related note, here’s why I have faith in the future: read this essay by this young lady when you have a sec.
“I was a teenage Senate page. The thought of ‘Senator Roy Moore’ makes me sick.”
Cue Laura Ingraham mocking this ‘snowflake’ for being concerned about being around a sexual predator…also cue another couple thousand young folks who’ll easily cancel out Ingraham and her troglodyte followers.
Emma
@ruemara: so we give in to what? Teach them a lesson? Protect our “leading candidates”?
Or are you saying we must accept unequal battlegrounds forever and always fight with one hand tied behind our backs?
Kay
I like him too. I thought he would be a good presidential candidate against Trump because he’s both friendly and smart and I thought it would be an effective contrast to how fucking nasty Trump is.
I don’t know why they did it. I get the argument for the deviousness of Gillenbrand but I’m wary of Dem women being portrayed as ambitious and cynical due to the weird, fucked up analysis of Clinton.
Maybe we have to wait and see what happens. If it was dumb I’ll accept that, but I don’t know what will happen.
Schlemazel
@PJ:
Our other Senator is an empty suit who salivates every time her name is mentioned as a possible VP candidate. She has done nothing of significance during her time & sits on the same gad damned judiciary committee the Franken did. Did you see her grill Sessions? I watched, she did shit and that was the best she could muster against an easy target. This woman that will replace Franken is a blank slate to me despite involvement in the MN DFL. SHe has made no splash, no noise on anything & will fit right in is my guess.
TenguPhule
@sherparick:
TIna Dupuy can DIE IN A FIRE.
IT WAS HER FUCKING WAIST DURING A PHOTO SHE REQUESTED.
Cacti
@No Drought No More:
If voters actually cared about that shit, why do the Republicans control every political branch of government?
bemused
@Emma:
I do think the ratfucking will be exposed.
joel hanes
@The Moar You Know:
We can run Sanders/Sarandon 2020 and watch us get single digit returns. But they will be the purest results ever.
Bernie’s far less spotless than Franken, but also far less vetted.
Roger Stone could take him down in a week, but Bernie’s far more useful to the Republicans in his current role.
Knight of Nothing
@ruemara: well put.
Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)
At least Michael Slager’s going to prison for 20 years.
Immanentize
I have a friend in the MA A.G.’s office who is doing amazing work on a number of critical issues (consumer protection, guns, justice, etc.). And we have a pretty good AG — Maura Healey. But my friend is so disillusioned about the mechanisms of politics. How much access the money people have even here in MA. She is considering whether she will stay where she is or hop to another job, which she can do without effort. She likes the fact that the A.G. can change future behaviors of wrong doing entities, but hates that the money people can change the behaviors of the A.G.
This Franken thing feels like that to me. I am no naif, believe me. I have the litigation wounds to prove it. But I just do not get the calculation that the Dems are making. I don’t get it. Are we really politically in a superior place now that Franken will leave in a few weeks? Or have we once again showed we can be rolled by the slimiest of efforts by the GOP? I guess we really won’t know until the mid-term elections are had in 11 months. But until then, where is the coherent, powerful resistance by our political leaders? Who are thy? I don’t see them anywhere.
And look, I am Mr. Effin Sunshine. I think optimism is a winning strategy. I am no Donny Downer. But I don’t see who (one or many) will lead us out of this pit of fail.
debit
@Yoda Dog:
It means that if the ratfuckers can find even one woman to come forward and allege something (he touched my waist, oh goodness gracious me!) we must resign. That’s what it changes.
The Moar You Know
@d58826: How do you know this? I don’t. I know MN has a Dem governor who is dealing with a GOP House and Senate and who may decide it’s expedient to cave and appoint an “independent” or a GOPer. Or who may get wrapped around a slew of lawsuits and not be able to appoint anyone.
Saying “the seat is safe” is a crock of shit. No seat is safe, and we just gave one away in a purple state.
WaterGirl
@PJ: Yes yes yes. Everything you say is true.
Elizabelle
Today, I am ashamed to be a Democrat.
Never before. Never. But ashamed. Of the cowardice. I didn’t think that was a true charge. But it is.
TenguPhule
@ruemara:
So eternal minority status and then CIvil War to actually fix things it is, then.
smintheus
Franken should resign and in so doing make a strong case for other abusers to resign, especially Trump. I’ve said before, he should make his resignation date effective on the day when Trump resigns.
TenguPhule
@PJ:
Its easy.
“MORON MORON MORON MORON MORON.”
Brachiator
A study in contrasts. MSNBC reconsiders severing ties with Sam Seder, because they belatedly recognized that they were played by conservatives. Democrats, on the other hand, can’t get a clue.
hitless
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Absolutely – it’s incumbent upon the Dems to operate in a spirit of bipartisanship. Country before party. Bring back regular order. Plus, politically it would be a great move!
Scotian
@Cheryl Rofer:
The other day you asked me to have hope and faith in America and Americans coming back from the dark side. In my reply I said I’d try but not seeing much to do so with, especially with the “purity ponies gonna purify” mindset that has become far too common within the Democratic party. Today I have lost that much more hope. When I look at Franken’s complainants and take ALL at face value, I *STILL* do not see grounds to treat him as his so called collegues just did. Censure him, sure, after due process, and let the voters in his State have final call, that much I see clear basis for, but not what I just witnessed. I heard women this morning equate the very least of sexual harassment claims on the same par they want sexual assault treated, as all one ugly thing which should be firing automatically.
Sorry, that is like saying that finding out your Senator stole some candy bars in the past versus your Senator that stole a million dollars, despite in the law a massive recognition of difference for obvious reasons! Worse, he did not use abuse of power in any case I have heard of, whereas both Trump and Moore clearly did to boot, yet all are equally bad??? Really? Not even a slight level of distinction between groping and brutal awful assault and rape? REALLY?!?!?!
I have not been this pissed on this topic since my wife was sexually assaulted by her uncle well over a decade ago. Way to go there Dems in the Senate, and it is curious that it is the SAME Senator from NY who led on this, same as she did with denouncing Bill Clinton’s lack of resignation the other day. Politically flavoured and clearing of the field of a possible competitor perhaps? Who can know, but I have to say the manner this was done in smells a lot on his own side AS WELL AS the smell of ratfucking which has been around this from the outset.
Moral high ground arguments have not worked all that well politically since the 80s, so forgive me if I view that argument yet again being used like this with some skepticism. If for once it does turn out that way, well then his sacrifice and abuse (and the way he has been equated with Moore over and over again is in my mind clearly qualifying as such) might actually end up meaning something, but as so many other turning points past, I ain’t holding my breath.
Finally, I find it infuriating that this removes the best Senator on Sessions questioning and focus where the Russian investigations are concerned and the Russian infiltration into team Trump. I have to wonder which was the greater political payoff/priority, getting Franken or getting Trump/Sessions. From the outside looking in, it looks more like being so lily white you cannot be besmirched matters than the other. Sorry, not my reading of reality at the moment, and politically craven and exploitative. This was a political move from beginning to end IMHO, and it cost the Dems one of the best Senators they ever had in the past quarter century, and they did so on the flimsiest of bases before giving ANY due process. Way to go there…I’m sure that is going to work out swimmingly…*SIGH*
Sorry Cheryl Rofer but this day has dimmed my ability to hold faith, and not by a small margin. I depend on the American left and center to remember context, nuance, and distinctions, and when I see them throw it out like this for this kind of expediency…well not an encouraging sign, not to me at least. Being Canadian it is hard to watch this stupidity knowing that it WILL drift up here if you folks do not get your own house in order, indeed our Harper government of nine years that Justin Trudeau saved us from in 2015 is no small example of such. THAT is why I care about American domestic politics so, because we cannot escape its repercussions while having zero say, no representation as you folks said once upon a time, albeit without the taxation part, so there is that at least…
Sorry, but I am seriously disheartened right now.
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle: Come sit by me.
This is worse then 2009-2010.
At least our party had the excuse of not seeing the ratfucking coming from a mile away then.
Marcopolo
@ruemara: This. This is pretty much where my thinking is. I will miss Franken’s voice & wit and dedication to working for regular folks. I honor & respect the work he has done. It’s a sad day.
Cacti
@smintheus:
Now that Franken’s gone, how bout you hold your breath waiting for Trump to resign?
Let us know how many times a day you pass out.
LurkerNoLonger
This whole situation sucks. It sucks if the allegations are true and it sucks if the allegations are false. It just sucks.
different-church-lady
@Brachiator: This really is good news, considering that true progressives have always thought progressive writers were worth more than Democratic members of congress.
Emma
And to those of you who keep harping that he won’t matter because he will be replaced by another democrat (and isn’t that a lovely prospect for men and women thinking of running as democrats)Franken’s vote is the least important thing. He was a fighter willing to take the battle to the enemy. We’ve lost a guy who could get the media’s attention in a positive way.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
Trust me Mazie Hirono is that horrible sterotype. She’s resigning from the Senate to run for governor.
Birds of a feather really do flock together.
germy
TriassicSands
Three points about the avalanche of sexual impropriety accusations:
1. In most cases, anonymous charges are unacceptable. The accused have a right to know who their accusers are.
2. Women must, in the future, come forward with accusations at the time the events takes place. While understanding why some women held back, sometimes for decades, I firmly believe that true justice is only possible if accusations are made in a timely manner. There is a reason for the statute of limitations. Justice must be available to both the women and men involved or allegedly involved in such events.
3. Believing women means taking their charges seriously and investigating sincerely and thoroughly — never dismissing them out of hand. Believing women does not mean that their accusations are accepted as verdicts.
Betty Cracker
@ruemara: Excellent comment. Thank you!
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle:
I truly hope so.
If the women of the senate wanted to band together, they should have made a statement that says the process is good, let’s have the senate investigation and then let’s investigate all accusations of this nature, regardless of what party you are in, as long as the accusations are not anonymous. Anonymous accusations are not, and should not, be considered.
They also had a huge opportunity to stop what we’re seeing – that “a waist squeeze is the same thing as attempted rape of a 14-year old”. I’m so angry and upset about this that I barely have words to say what I’m trying to say.
chris
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: https://i.imgur.com/J9Kyng8.png
TenguPhule
@Emma: Yes. Why should good candidates run under the Democratic Flag if they have to always keep one eye on their rear to watch for a knife coming for them at any time.
This is grade school politics and our party flunked the test.
debit
@Schlemazel: So here’s a story: I work in a tax office. I had a vet come in who had several years on unfiled tax returns, and was getting levied by the IRS because of them. He had some emotional issues and was just at the end of his rope, would cry and make emotional statements about just giving up and vague intimations of suicide.
I spent hours on the phone trying to help him, and got bounced from agent to agent and finally was told that because he was also a federal employee (worked for the VA) that his case could only be handled by one specific division of the IRS in CA who never answered their phone.
I called Klobuchar’s local office and left a message asking for assistance. They never responded. I called Franken’s local office and spoke to a real person, who then followed up that day, and again the next day with a contact at the taxpayer’s advocate office who had the entire case in front of her,, who then had it resolved in less than a week.
That’s what we’re losing.
Davebo
@different-church-lady: Pretty sure Franken will be writing more than ever now.
Cacti
@germy:
I’d be laughing too if I was GOPer.
Democrats got played.
hellslittlestangel
The only good that can come of this is if Democrats take the gloves off in the next election season. “Soft-on-crime Republican candidate X supported the child molester Roy Moore. Anti-christian Candidate X is on the side of criminals who are targeting YOUR children. He belongs in a prison cell, not in Congress.” Campaign like that, and I’ll contribute to your campaign.
PJ
@Yoda Dog: We shall see. Franken’s replacement is not going to be the kind of advocate he was. And he is only the first Democrat who is going to be brought down by internet masses manipulated by Republican ratfuckery.
B.B.A.
How to tell if it’s a ratfuck:
If the accusations keep dripping out, Al is guilty as sin, and should let the door hit him on his way out.
If there are no more accusations after today, it’s likely we were rolled.
Either way, welcome to the Senate, Tina Smith.
different-church-lady
@TriassicSands: 1) Only if things go to court.
2) This is just unfair.
3) Nail on the head.
germy
Kay
I DO agree with you-all on how there won’t be any political benefit for “the high road”
If white women gave a rat’s ass about sexual harassment they never would have elected Donald Trump. They don’t punch their weight on “women’s issues” and they NEVER have, even though every ten years media try to create some fabled “pushback” on women’s rights. How many times have we heard about the Year Of The Woman? We’re the last country to never elect a woman as the top political leader. We’re just not the vanguard on this. We’re behind just about every other democracy.
I hope the political calculus wasn’t “well, we’ll garner the mighty force of outraged upper middle class women!” because there’s no such group of voters. There are a lot of them in media and we hear a lot from them but as a mass of voters? Has anyone ever seen them? I never have. The only identifiable group of white middle and upper class women were the women who backed Bush on “security”. Good job there, huh? Way to go, fellow white ladies! After that they gave us Trump, so they’re getting worse at this.
WaterGirl
@Schlemazel: Does someone have a list of the female senators who came out against Al yesterday? I would like to call each of their offices and give them an earful.
Mnemosyne
@Yoda Dog:
We just established that Democratic politicians should be required to resign based on anonymous complaints with no investigation whatsoever.
How do you think that’s going to play out in the midterms? And women politicians shouldn’t assume they’re going to be immune to the exact same attacks.
hitless
@The Moar You Know: This absolutely true. Plus, how many people know how the confirmation process works? I don’t. Will there be a delay in seating Dem senator? Will it affect legislation?
Jettisoning Franken without due process seems like a political miscalculation to me. And just to be clear, I’m not suggesting political benefit is a reason to keep a sexual harasser as Senator. I consider the charges against Franken to be unproven, which again doesn’t mean I disbelieve the women – it means I don’t know.
TenguPhule
@ruemara:
“Look, there’s no point in resisting. Just lie back and think of England.”
The irony, it burns.
Mike in DC
If we can’t even bring pressure on Blake Farenthold to resign…
Joe Bauers
“For the 112th consecutive election, Democrats carry the state of Moral High Ground, which of course has no electoral votes but which has the *best* photo ops for preening.”
hellslittlestangel
@TriassicSands: Yes, yes, yes.
different-church-lady
@Davebo: And self-publishing? Who’s going to touch him? Not newspapers, and not publishing houses.
geg6
@sherparick:
I read it. She’s a fucking drama queen who needs to get over herself. I’m ashamed to be the same gender.
And the fact that she equates an arm around her waist with my rape is infuriating. Fuck her.
Mnemosyne
@NobodySpecial:
And yet it’s mostly men calling for Franken’s head here, not women.
He is the designated scapegoat for other men’s guilt about their own behavior.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Hell, don’t be surprised if the women politicians are tarred as “lying liars who lie about sexual harassment to bring down good men” just to twist the knife a little.
Marcopolo
@WaterGirl: Everyone but Klobuchar. Have fun.
cleek
@The Moar You Know:
i’ll see if i can find a way to show the list in a different way.
The Moar You Know
@hellslittlestangel: Can’t do that. “They go low, we go high”, remember that bullshit? It’s a mantra with the party. What it really means is “I am too chickenshit to fight for my beliefs”. And that message is not lost on those who need help the most.
Democrats have neither courage nor convictions and just proved it to the entire world today. I am enraged.
Cacti
@hellslittlestangel:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Gin & Tonic
Perfect. Get rid of a smart, effective Democratic Senator, split the Democratic party, allow Gillibrand to beclown herself kneecapping Franken, thus (probably) killing her chances for 2020, poison the #MeToo movement, what am I missing? Roger Stone is damn good at what he does, and we are fucking morons.
WaterGirl
@debit: Absolutely.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: Be fair. Six women were the ones who plunged the actual knife in his back.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: That’s pretty much where I am too.
Draco7
@WaterGirl:
You only hurt the ones you love, especially when they’re the only ones you can hurt. The energy for this event has been generated by frustration and anger caused by the current administration, but they are not vulnerable and it has to go somewhere. I’m a Minnesotan, and I would like to understand in at least moderate detail what Franken’s actions are before passing judgment. He’s not my “super-hero” – I don’t have such attachments – but I am not being offered the opportunity. That bothers me.
TenguPhule
@Gin & Tonic:
Make Moore and Trump look electable.
Another Scott
To pile on, I too think that short-circuiting the Ethics investigation means that we won’t ever really know how many of these charges have substance, and how many are just political score-settling. And it means that the Senate still won’t have a sensible, timely, working process to address charges like these and that is a big problem.
But I can’t second guess the Senate women who spoke up on this so forcefully. Maybe they’ve seen evidence that we haven’t.
Franken was always going to be limited in politics by his previous life as a comedian. It’s a shame from a public policy perspective that his public career is (apparently) ending this way. But I agree that what is much more important is that someone replaces him who can continue to fight for sensible policies.
If the MN governor appoints the Lt. Gov. to replace Franken, that will help speed the recovery from this event. Reporting I’ve seen indicated that she was expected to be a “caretaker” and not necessarily run for the seat herself (but who knows if that is accurate). Unless something comes out to show that Franken was overwhelmingly railroaded, and the voters of MN accept that, then he probably shouldn’t think of running again in 2018 (but maybe in 2024??).
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Immanentize
@Mnemosyne:
That seems a bit strong and broad brushed. But maybe I hope it is true at least as far as Tom Cotton — who came out strongly for Franken — is cconcerned.
Mnemosyne
@sherparick:
I did read Dupuy’s column. If you are horribly damaged because someone squeezed your WAIST at a photo op, you need to seek psychological help.
Franken is a scapegoat. Other male politicians are going to continue to be allowed to get away with far worse behavior because he was sacrificed for their sins. Now they can point to him to distract from their own bad behavior.
different-church-lady
@Joe Bauers:
Just make sure you don’t touch anyone you’re standing next to.
bemused
@TenguPhule:
Ouch, I’d hesitate to be that hard on Tina. She had a really rough childhood she’s written about. We don’t know what she hasn’t written about but to be so upset by the waist squeeze and then say she wouldn’t want her husband to do that to her in public is a little odd. I think a lot of women who had rotten childhoods and/or have been sexually assaulted have ptsd. Even a non-sexual hug or touch by a man can trigger flashbacks.
Raoul
@different-church-lady:
That is the CW. And it may be. But I think 2018 could be such a wave election that, with a good choice for appointed senator, the seat might hold. Certainly we need to do all that is possible to fight for it. Amy K will be up as well, and all our statewide constitutional officers. Gov Dayton is not seeking a third term. High stakes next November for sure.
Peale
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Yep. And during all of that time, voters rewarded that rectitude by expanding our footprint into the moral hills of absolutely nowhere. Because we haven’t solved the problem that human beings, especially males, sometimes deploy sexual strategies that fall into the “immoral” and “misconduct” categories and worse. And it will continue to happen because “human beings” have not yet been replaced by robots. So every few months or few years, we’ll have another issue and will need to “regain that moral high ground” that voters don’t actually reward and will be shown again to be hypocrites about sex and gender. When people complain that the Democratic Party Doesn’t Stand for Anything! if the answer is “We’re the party that spends all of its time investigating our members for sexual misconduct”, you stand for something, but not something voters have particularly responded to.
The Moar You Know
@cleek: Damn, seriously – no need. I have a very good idea of who is in there, most people wouldn’t have that many, and most importantly it works. My first five years at this job, before taking over the security end, was development. I learned something very quickly: if it’s working and secure don’t mess with it.
Cacti
@Another Scott:
How virtuous of you. You win the new Senate seat from the State of sensitive ponytail guy.
Spanky
So Gillibrand successfully removes a potential rival for the 2020/24/28 Presidential election. Good job, Kristen! Now we know how you roll.
different-church-lady
@Another Scott:
I was astonished he got elected in the first place.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic:
I am so upset I am having a hard time expressing myself. Thanks for this, I think you’ve pretty much nailed it.
d58826
@The Moar You Know: they are to busy taking the gloves off to continue fighting about the 2016 primary. Bernie continuies on his ego trip and Hillary has been told to sit down and shut up.
SFAW
Someone mentioned unintended consequences, Here’s one I can envision:
Franken’s forced seppuku sends the message that the Dems are more concerned with gaining some bullshit “moral high ground,” instead of protecting their own non-mortal sinners. No non-politician with more than two brain cells to rub together gives a rat’s ass about that.
Some of their constituents will say to themselves “if those candy-asses aren’t willing to fight, and will turn tail at the first sign of pushbacl/sandbagging, then why should I believe they’ll look out for me?” Or they’ll say “these morons LIKE losing. Why should I waste my vote on them?” And why do I think that? Because I went through some of that, probably around the same time Senator Franken was starting his speech. I would never vote for the Party of Traitors, but the Purity of Essence morons in my party are doing their damnedest to get me to do that. [They won’t succeed, but I also realize not everyone hates the Rethugs as much as I do.]
Fucking assholes.
bemused
@ruemara:
And we need to fight hard for a Dem to get that senate seat when it comes up.
That creep Coleman or other rotten Republican clones will be running.
Schlemazel
@debit:
That story is not unique. Klobuchar is useless.I used to call almost weekly about issues & her staff would flat out lie to me. She lied to me when I talked to her about it. I have had the same experience of reaching out for assistance & getting nothing from Klobuchar but help from Franken. Given the cipher Dayton says he will appoint I expect she will be in the Amy mold & will get her ass kicked by a Republican next fall.
TenguPhule
@ruemara:
Instead, we’re all going to die on the hill of Party Purity.
Betty Cracker
@WaterGirl: 32 senators called for Franken to resign — 19 men, 13 women. Why do only the women deserve an earful?
Zelma
Today I am not proud of being a Democrat or a woman. I am appalled that the Democratic women of the Senate acted as they did. The Democrats abandoned a good Senator without a hearing as the result of a partisan witch hunt. The voters of Minnesota were willing to wait to hear what his defense was. Look at the numbers. To be frank. this episode will weaken the effect of the #metoo movement. There are lots of battles to be fought to improve the treatment of women but a wise general chooses her battles whenever possible. This was a battle fought purely on the enemy’s terms. We didn’t even put up a good defense. And we lost. Sad.
different-church-lady
@Raoul: Roy Moore is gonna tell us whether a wave is coming or not.
PJ
@joel hanes: It was totally clear at the time that the Bush Administration was lying. Cheney constantly stated that Iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks when, in fact, bin Laden hated Iraq’s secular government. There was no legitimate evidence that Iraq had any kind of weapon of mass destruction which could reach the US. The most Bush provided was a photo of some rocket tubes which could shoot rockets a few miles, maybe, but that’s it. Everyone who supported that war did it because they were stone cold idiots, they thought it was the politically expedient thing to do (this would be most of the Democrats who voted for the AUMF), or they just wanted to see us kill a bunch of Arabs. It was all bullshit, and you stepping in now and saying,”Well, who could’ve known?” is even more bullshit.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Yoda Dog: Fuck that, this changes everything.
We were riding a wave of people signing up to run for office. Now everyone knows that the Party that was supposed to be supporting them has the knives ready for their backs like the meanest Mean Southern Belle.
If I were getting ready to run for office, I’d be having second thoughts right now.
Amaranthine RBG
@WaterGirl:
They were all given a heads up that he was resigning to allow them a chance to score some political points.
The last “accuser” was the weakest of all. “He put his hand on my waist !!!” .
The only real thing that changed yesterday was that it became known Franken was going to make an announcement today resigning.
TenguPhule
@bemused: And if you think there’s going to be much energy for that there after knifing the best one there in the back then you’re an optimist.
Knight of Nothing
@Another Scott: “If the MN governor appoints the Lt. Gov. to replace Franken, that will help speed the recovery from this event. Reporting I’ve seen indicated that she was expected to be a “caretaker” and not necessarily run for the seat herself (but who knows if that is accurate).”
I think this will prove accurate. Dayton is an extremely wealthy man at the very end of his career, and his Lt Gov is close to retirement as well. She’ll be a reliable D vote for the next 14 months.
Raoul
@PJ:
Oh, hells no. I’m not sure why you think this, but if it happens, she will get primaried. Heck, I’ll primary her.
smintheus
@Cacti: Did you read as far as my second sentence?
Aardvark Cheeselog
ITT: Democrats in Disarray.
Nice try, Betty.
Brachiator
@ruemara:
Actually there was. Investigation. Consideration of various options if allegations were found to be true. Letting Franken’s voters decide.
The Democrats are not playing to win. This will not end well.
Fair Economist
@Yarrow:
Well, finally. We’ve had a number of ratfuckings before that could have been reversed, like ACORN and Shirley Sherrod, but weren’t. So while firing without due process is still wrong, this is a step forward.
PJ
@sherparick: That essay is precisely why Franken should’ve stayed in the Senate. She was upset because he put his hand around her waist when she asked for a photo together. That is insane. If, as seems to be the case, she is the kind of person who can’t stand to be touched, because it is so far outside of the norm of our culture, she needs to warn people of that, particularly when she asks for a photo with them.
different-church-lady
@Raoul: Primary! It’s a magic verb!
bemused
@WaterGirl:
Might take awhile. Their phones so busy I couldn’t get any staffer except Klobuchar’s the other day.
geg6
@bemused:
Then maybe she shouldn’t cozy up to a celebrity and ask for a photo. Fuck her.
Yoda Dog
@debit: No, that was already the case. I don’t know, call me a coward or whatever but I’m still proud to be a democrat today. The James O’Keefe’s of the world have been around at least as long as I have. What this will embolden their ilk? They’re plenty bold. Bold is not their problem.
Immanentize
@Spanky: Shit, Spanky, if that was really what she was doing, I might respect her actions a lot more.
TenguPhule
@Yoda Dog:
“We don’t give a SHIT about you. All we care about is how you vote. You are EXPENDABLE CANNON FODDER and we can and will betray you at the drop of a Republican accusation no matter how stupid or flimsy it may be. Now, who wants to be the first sacrificial lamb, er, I mean candidate?”
-Our Democratic Party’s New Message
FlipYrWhig
@debit @TenguPhule: Until the other day I didn’t even know it was possible to “grope” a waist. Mostly this seems to prove that people don’t read past the headline, like Donna Brazile on “rigging.”
hellslittlestangel
@Betty Cracker: Because we expect men to be horrible?
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: Most middle class white married women vote the way their men do, all the demographic breakup of the election results point to this.
Spanky
@Elizabelle: Oh, aren’t you the optimist!
hitless
@Gin & Tonic: This comment should be promoted somehow.
If Tweeden coming forward was politically motivated, it has succeeded spectacularly. Beyond removing a politically effective Senator, this move has riven the party and the voters. Look at this board and reliable Dem voters saying they are done with the party.
Cacti
@d58826:
Imagine if Hillary ran against Bernie again for the Dem nomination.
How many seconds would it take the newly converted “all women must be believed” congregation to go right back to “that ball busting bitch can’t tell me what to do!”?
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Why? Because they banded together and forced him out. Because as women they felt they had the moral authority and obligation to take a stand, and they took a stupid stand that hurts the party. Because I expect more from them so I’m more disappointed that they are so short-sighted. I think the women who banded together are the ones who are knee-capping the “MeToo” movement. The investigation of Franken would have set a precedent for how these kinds of (non-anonymous) accusations should be handled. Now they have shut down the whole thing by rushing to judgment and not relying on the process.
geg6
@Betty Cracker:
Because they are the ones who started it and pushed everyone else to back them. I hate them all. They are anti-democratic.
bemused
@Draco7:
Me too. And I want to know the women Dem senators’ actual rationale for ganging up on Franken. The real story.
TenguPhule
@Immanentize:
Simply assume our party leaders are idiots and it all makes perfect sense.
ruemara
@Emma: Why not? Black people have done that for centuries. What have I said that did not completely acknowledge this was an unfair, unequal playing field. This hardball, knife in the guts, kick to the face time and has been for years. Are you telling me something I did not know? No. Is that the reality? Yes. You want to roast me for being right? Go ahead. Just understand I do clap back.
Mike in Pasadena
@ruemara: Good people will stay out of Democratic politics because they now know for sure that at the first sight of any misstep they will be savaged by members of their own party. High ground! We are so pure! Aren’t we wonderful that our shit doesn’t stink because we eat our own. Yay! We win by not supporting Dems and kissing the asses of Republicans. Well done, Democrats, you gave in to Republican ratfucking once again.
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
How many seconds are in instantly?
Raoul
@different-church-lady: Yeah, yeah. But the point is, why is PJ being be so baselessly dour about who takes Al’s seat? If she wants to win in 2018, being a cautious nebbish is not the formula.
different-church-lady
It is just utterly astonishing to think that Franken is paying a far larger price from the dynamics that Trump set in motion than Trump is.
Schlemazel
@WaterGirl:
Not sure. I am so beaten down I stopped caring to fight this. I want to vote a straight Republican ticket next year, I am white, male, can pass as a christian and as safe as I can be. I’d set the world on fire right now except for the damn grandkids
Citizen Alan
@Scotian:
I agree completely and wish I could join you in Canada tomorrow. I’m now completely pessimistic about the 2018 elections and I’m starting to have anxiety attacks about what will happen if God forbid the Republicans get a filibuster-proof majority. And I am constantly reminded now of what Susie Madrak said years ago: “The Republicans are the spawn of Satan, and the Democrats are too weak and cowardly to save us from them.”
Fair Economist
@Another Scott:
If they had, they should have said so. The publicly available info did not justify a demand to resign.
It would have been a very different situation if Gillibrand had said she had private information supporting the allegations she did not wish to make public, but that she had decided justified calling for resignation. But she didn’t.
TenguPhule
@ruemara:
And police can still kill them with impunity.
Yeah, not seeing a bright side here.
different-church-lady
@Raoul: The seat is gone in the special election. Period.
Nelle
@Scotian: I’m sitting on the bench with you. Truly. Damn it. If no one can see the difference between these accusations and what Moore, Trump, and Weinstein were doing, they don’t have business making laws. And I think of all those of us who will be affected by losing a sharp and quick mind in the Senate and on the Judiciary. I think Franken may be walking away thinking what I imagine Obama might have thought walking away. “Damn, people, I can’t even lead people this dumb and naive. You deserve the government you get.”
I was ten when I was first “p-grabbed” – by a stranger in public. I was 28 when I was grabbed by a man who was caught and turned out to be a rapist. I fought him off. I am under no illusion that things are uncomfortable to some to have a man put his arm around your waist for a photo op. But don’t you dare equate that with assault and the use of sex for power and intimidation.
I will second-guess those women. If he is that much of a dastardly villain, I want to know and I want it out in public. If only to protect other women in the future. And to protect men too. This just protects power and it ain’t in our hands, even less so, now Democrats. Senators aren’t simply exchangeable.
SFAW
@Yoda Dog:
You know who agrees with you? President Hillary Clinton, Governor Charlie Crist, Senator Harvey Gantt, and a host of others who kicked the ass of their Rethug rival — N months before the actual election.
Can we please FUCKING STOP with the “we’re guaranteed to win, because the polls 12 months out tell us so” idiocy?
Use Franken’s sandbagging as a motivator to make calls, get people registered to vote, do voter education, whatever — but don’t fucking tell me today that there’s nothing to worry about for the midterms. Tell me in December, 2018 — if things turn out the way we all want, hope, and are working for.
WaterGirl
@Schlemazel: This is so fucking stupid that I can barely stand it. At least when Trump and the republicans do that we’re not party to it. But to even think of voting republican – I am assuming that even if you want to for revenge, you know that would be a horrible mistake.
hitless
@Knight of Nothing: There is a real chance the Republicans take that Senate seat in the next election. I’m not up on current Minnesota politics, but I have lived there and it isn’t some overwhelmingly progressive state.
I think it’s time for me to try to ignore the state of this country again.
Cacti
Here is the lesson that the GOP learned today:
They can overthrow a democratically elected Dem Senator with zero pushback or due process, and get an assist from other Democrats in doing it.
It’s going to be open season on every Democrat in Congress.
BlueDWarrior
@different-church-lady: Because the dynamics break because Republicans refuse to acknowledge or punish these things as problems, and Democrats most assuredly do. So this becomes a massive imbalance in how these things go down.
This goes back to how the Republican base has gone crazy and it makes Democrats have to make a bunch of asinine calculations that can’t be rationalized out. If both Republicans and Democrats acted in a sane way when it came to accusations, we wouldn’t be where we are. But we live in a world where credible accusations sink Democrats and Republicans basically don’t, or really won’t, care.
Raoul
@Another Scott:
So much this. Being ad hoc and reactive on Franken shows how damn vulnerable the Dems are to ratf-ks. We need a clear and useable set of policies. Even if the GOP doesn’t give a shit. Spell out a process so that prima donna Senators (all of ’em, Katie) can’t just shiv a fellow Dem in a panic/stampede.
ruemara
@Brachiator: Tell me the good way out with no investigation started, media drum beats and more than enough anonymous women and media whores, (apologies to whores), tacking on. I’m all ears. I work in comms & PR. I could use the assist if this comes up.
@Mike in Pasadena: Good people stay out of politics because they’d rather throw eggs from the side. But a lot of great people step up and no, they’re not looking at it like you.
AliceBlue
@sherparick:
The only thing I thought after reading that was “this woman is a nut.”
bemused
@TenguPhule:
Depends how pissed off people are, not only about Franken but the Trump regime and GOP too. MN has been a blue state, now more purple but think it could go back bluer particularly in urban, suburban areas.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
The women senators seemed to be the first to assemble in organized opposition to Franken. However, I do not,will not hold them singly responsible for what is a decision of the Senate Democrats. You are right to call out anyone who would put sole responsibility on the women senators.
And clearly, as seen in sober comments not only here but elsewhere, this is not being taken as a clear victory in the battle against sexual harassment.
bluefish
Franken, while a grabby one evidently, was targeted. I’ll be forever grateful to him for having pinned down old Jeff Sessions during testimony in a manner that yielded real results. I gather others in powerful positions were considerably less appreciative of his skill and his efforts in that regard–and seem to think that this just don’t matter right about now. I’m also at that point of disgust that seems to entail only the pipe and a very faulty understanding of Newton’s Laws of Physics being at all helpful.
My hope is that the sleepy sleepy Dems will finally get with it and weaponize this ridiculous resignation against Moore and Trump. They sure as hell better. Gillibrand I won’t even get into … aaarrrrgggh! I say this as a 62 year old woman who dealt with my fair share of grabby hands at the office, pushing up against the wall on work trips abroad, obscene phone calls and other etcs — And overall gas lighting when the shit hit the fan. One of my favorite signs from the Women’s March: “If you grab me by the p*****, I will kick you in the b****.” There is strength in simplicity, as the right very well knows — Let’s get real, real simple now. Moore first, Trump second, if the latter makes it that far without stroking out on camera. Am absolutely furious.
Fair Economist
@TenguPhule:
The Franken allegations were of a very different character than any of the previous ones used for mob justice, like Weinstein or Spacey. In those cases the allegations were very serious, of attempted rape or abuse of power for sexual molestation, and the allegations were very well supported. The Franken allegations were much less serious *and* much less well supported. The only serious one would be the Politico one, which did allege abuse of power – but it’s alone and an anonymous victim.
bemused
@geg6:
Yes.
Amaranthine RBG
All of this is good news for Kamala Harris 2020 !
Schlemazel
@Another Scott:
WRONG! He had worked very hard and earned the reputation of being very serious, very smart and very good at carrying the liberals message.
BellyCat
@TriassicSands:
The ONLY appropriate way to handle the allegations against Franken was this. The Dems should have been unified in their response of “concern”, while also insisting on the Rule of Law — which entailed an Ethics Inquiry.
Republicans know the Achilles Heel of Democrats perfectly and have, yet again, struck a perfect blow — guided by Democratic helping hands, no less!
This is just the beginning of Operation Ratfuckery as the New Normal, you can count on that.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker: You and ruemara are both gonna eat your words with heaping amounts of crow in 2018. Mark my words.
The Moar You Know
@hitless: I will be voting for my local Dems and for Applegate in the Issa matchup this cycle, but am going to sit out all the other higher office elections in 2018, and possibly for good depending on whether this party can find its spine or not. The person who wrote that she was throwing in the towel on voting because Dems were just doing the GOP’s work for them has a very valid point.
If I vote for the GOP, or vote for a Dem that does the same things, really why bother?
Mike in DC
Okay, so contrarian argument here. Suppose Doug Jones wins next week, and we take the opportunity to bring it back to Trump (and Farenthold). If there is a political cost to being a creep, even for Republicans, then the housecleaning on the D side pays off. Even if Moore wins, it’s an opportunity to shift women voters over/back to the Democrats.
I still think it’s kind of a shitty way for Franken’s career to end, but this might not be a disaster without mitigation, guys.
Schlemazel
@Betty Cracker:
They led the charge, they deserve to hear first. None of them are clean but the whole effort was organized by a couple of the women Senators.
Raoul
@different-church-lady: His opponent, Norm Coleman, was a garbagey transparent self-dealer. His party switch after being mayor of St Paul was one of the slimiest moves. He only won his one term because Paul Wellstone died.
tobie
The forced resignation of Franken is a real punch in the gut to every Democrat who volunteers to hand out leaflets every two years at the polls, to make phone calls for midterm and general elections, to canvass for local, state and national candidates, and to do all the other grunt work for which one needs an enthusiastic and committed base. I can’t imagine how the volunteers for Doug Jones who liked Franken’s brand of smart, irreverent, liberal politics are feeling today.
TenguPhule
@Fair Economist: And expecting Politico to do a vetting on the order of the Washington Post is a pipe dream.
Thoroughly Pizzled
I trust Debbie Stabenow, Claire McCaskill, Kamala Harris, Kristen Gillibrand and all the women Senators of the Democratic Party. This is the right thing to do.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@WaterGirl: This. So much this.
What do you people think will happen when this is revealed as ratfucking? “Oh, these wimmen. Can’t ever believe them, can we?”
B.B.A.
@bemused: 50% chance they know he’s guilty of everything he’s accused of, and worse. 50% chance they think he’s innocent, but recognized that the drip-drip-drip of bullshit stories not only made Al permanently irrelevant, it was sucking press attention away from stuff that actually matters.
“But the Ethics Committee” – nobody has ever taken the Ethics Committee seriously. And if he’s cleared (which, again, we don’t know that’s how it would turn out), there’s still gonna be a whole new batch of stories about him coming out every damn week to debunk. Republicans like nothing better than flogging a dead horse until it doesn’t even stink anymore.
We lost this one. We haven’t lost everything. Move on.
(Looking forward to “Al Franken” making a confessional appearance on the Stuart Smalley program. In a few months, after the dust settles, SNL needs to make this happen.)
Raoul
@The Moar You Know: So this train of thought got us Trump. And quite possibly nuclear war with North Korea and who knows what contemporaneous shitstorm in the middle east.
The Dems are not republican-lite. I get that today is demoralizing. Giving the GOP carte blanche to fuck the world because Dems are not 100% effective is Susan Sarandon territory.
Fair Economist
@Joe Bauers:
Make sure you don’t hold anybody’s waist or shoulder during those photo ops!
amygdala
@TenguPhule:
Do you have a link for this? Last I heard, Senator Hirono has metastatic renal cell carcinoma, which is not compatible with a gubernatorial campaign.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
No it doesn’t. Republicans will stick together, their base voters will see that and assume all the charges are ratfucking.
Meanwhile, men and women voting for Democrats drop because they see a party ruled by a mob willing to send them to the gallows at the first accusation. I don’t see a net gain here.
Schlemazel
@Raoul:
IT IS WORSE THAN THAT!”
SHe says she will only be a chair warmer – no intention to run again in 18. We are so fucked.
Cacti
Maybe someday Democrats will learn to fight Republicans with the same vigor that they fight fellow Democrats.
Yoda Dog
@ruemara: Apparently having a hearing all next year about whether or not Al Franken was a little grabby or a lot is how we’re supposed to be “winning.”
different-church-lady
@Mike in DC:
THEY KNEW TRUMP WAS A CREEP AND THEY VOTED FOR HIM ANYWAY.
Cacti
@Schlemazel:
But important people on this blog have said there’s no difference in replacing one of the most effective liberal voices in the Senate with an empty suit that votes D.
Brachiator
@ruemara:
How about the Senate actually schedules an investigation? They require that any new accusations be channeled through the investigatory committee. Congress has done this before. It is hardly new.
Hell, the Republicans had previously semi-promised to investigate Moore, and possibly to hold hearings to determine if he would even be seated if elected. All this has melted away. And the GOP is ignoring any supposed media drum beats.
Hell, I am frankly puzzled at how easily Franken has been hustled out of office while people who have been accused of far worse offenses remain.
Very interesting. Here, I would defer to your expertise and ask you about cases in which people successfully fended off accusations, or settled for lesser punishment. How did they do it?
Sab
@sherparick: I read the article and I am not buying it.
Knight of Nothing
@hitless: true. But in a general sense, Dems are always on the brink of disaster: building and fixing and preserving things takes constant work and vigilance, whereas wrecking things takes only one lucky shot by some asshole. (BTW, I’m sure some would say this is what happened to Franken. But in this case, I don’t think so: he made his name in politics in part by calling liars out in public – he’s not afraid of doing it and never has been. So I just can’t credit the idea that this is purely a rat-fuck by bad actors. If it was, he’d be all over it.)
TenguPhule
@amygdala:My bad, So furious that I mixed her up with Colleen Hanabusa.
LaNonna
Such crap, calling for Franken to resign, before any process. I am both enraged and disheartened, and I do believe this is only the opening salvo in a concerted effort to hamstring the Democrats, ably assisted by our own. Grrrr….
Amaranthine RBG
@Cacti:
Yes, right after they learn from the mistakes of 2016 by nominating Kamala Harris in 2020.
For a while, I sort of held out hope that Trumps win would be shocking enough to restore some sanity to the democratic party. Ha – I was stupid to think that.
Juju
@Elizabelle: I read that article in “The Atlantic ” as well. It seemed much ado about very little. It was a waist hug with a squeeze. My guess is Franken didn’t even realize he did anything wrong, and she seemed to have put more meaning in what he did than the incident merited.
Schlemazel
@WaterGirl:
I am very angry at the moment, I’ll get over it – mostly.
The purity ponies gave us W, they gave us Dump, they took Brown, Elders and now Franken. They deserve to suffer, fuck them. BUt I know I won’t vote for a single Republican because the OT rule of “If I can find one deserving person”
Amir Khalid
@Kay:
It was dumb. The Republicans came away with Franken’s scalp, handed to them on a platter by his own party.
Emma
@ruemara: because we had a chance to change the narrative and we blew it. We had a chance to say the playing ground is equal for everyone. We had a chance to tell young people that if they want to fight we have their back. AND WE BLEW IT.
Marcopolo
One of the things I like about BJ is the passion & energy folks bring here in commenting. There’s a lot of anger here today (and some others recently) & grief too. Great. It’s justified. Get it out. Work through it. And then let’s get back to the actual work in meatspace of finding great candidates, working to get them elected, and holding those already in office accountable. And something else people might want to do is to write or call Franken’s office and let him know how much you appreciated his service. I just did.
Sab
@Schlemazel: I think that’s good news. That’s leaves the field open so that others who might want to run don’t have to attack an incumbent (but unelected) female senator.
PJ
@Mike in DC: Nobody in Alabama is going to vote for Doug Jones, or not vote for Moore, because Al Franken resigned. If voters there haven’t made up their mind by now, they sure as hell are not taking allegations of sexual assault by anyone into consideration.
different-church-lady
@Knight of Nothing:
We are not on the brink of disaster. WE ARE IN THE LASER SURVEYED GEOGRAPHIC CENTER OF DISASTER AND HAVE BEEN SINCE NOV. 8, 2016.
Mike in DC
@Amaranthine RBG: I’m sorry. Which white dude did you want them to nominate again?
justawriter
The only winners here are going to be the newspapers, television and AM radio stations of Minnesota who will receive and extra 10 or 20 million in Koch-bucks in 2018 to unseat whatever lame duck gets appointed to replace Franken.
no comment
For anyone interested, Tina Dupuy will be on Sirius XM channel 121 today at 2pm Eastern. She’s guest hosting for part of John Fugelsang’s show Tell Me Everything. She will likely be discussing Al Franken, but I don’t know whether or not she’ll be taking callers.
I’m not sure whether I’ll be listening. I’m kind of interested in whether anyone will ask Dupuy how she compares her waist being squeezed during a photo to sexual harassment. I get that it was unwanted, but I have trouble seeing it as being sexual or malicious. I’m not a big hugger, I’ve been hugged against my wishes many times in my life. I don’t see this as much different.
Fugelsang may be on later in the show. He gives a lot of leeway to people he considers his friends, and he’s mentioned that his wife made Dupuy’s wedding veil. So I expect him to defend Dupuy, even if she exaggerates the significance of what happened to her.
Mike in DC
@PJ: wasn’t the point. If voters reject Moore there, then it means sexual harassment and assault is toxic even with the GOP base. I don’t expect Franken’s resignation to affect the outcome, just to put us in a more advantageous position.
Cacti
@Marcopolo:
And watching the party chuck them under the bus on behalf of GOP ratfuckers.
Irony Abounds
Shows you what a deplorable mess this country is in when Franken has to resign over behavior that is significantly less inappropriate than the conduct of the DOTUS and soon to be Senator from Alabama, both of whom will blithely continue on their misogynistic ways. Conyers resignation was necessary; don’t agree that Franken’s was.
efgoldman
@Elizabelle:
I’ve not been sround much the last few weeks, so it’s possible y’all have hashed this out, but this feels to me like the vapors of Shirley Sherrod and the penumbra of ACORN, at least until there’s a real investigation and report.
TenguPhule
@B.B.A.: And Republicans pick a new target and the process repeats. Then what?
TenguPhule
@efgoldman: Its ACORN all over again.
Only this time with active Democratic participation.
Cacti
@Mike in DC:
They won’t.
Marcopolo
@Cacti: Keep working through it :). You’re not there yet.
Schlemazel
@Sab:
I have to assume you know nothing of MN politics then. How about the power of incumbency, do you know about that?
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
And if we really want to be in the most advantageous position possible, we would run no candidates for office whatsoever.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Also because we are looking to those women for leadership,and their actions here displayed anything but. Because some of those names are being floated for president in 2020. Chuck Schumer will also get an earful because he’s the fucking majority leader. For the same reason that his awful position on Israel yesterday is worse than if some random guy in the senate had said it. This thing with Franken s a total DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP FAIL
TenguPhule
@Schlemazel:
Stop bringing reason and logic into this.
WaterGirl
@ruemara: Al could have demanded that they start the investigation, along with our party leadership.
Another Scott
@Schlemazel: TheStateman:
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
And the Democratic Senators are gleefully hammering on the big red button that says “Do not push”.
WarMunchkin
I’m proud of the Democrats for being a party that practices what they preach, so are my friends, some of whom harbored some resentment or confusion, and we will redouble our efforts to vote and volunteer for the brave women who spoke out and challenged the idea that harassers can stay in elected office if they have a D next to their name.
PJ
@Mike in DC: Again, how? And there’s a huge difference between sexually assaulting a minor and documented preying on teenagers on the one hand, and then lying that it never happened, on the one hand, and unsupported allegations of grabbing someone’s ass. I think even voters in Alabama can make that distinction.
bemused
Paul Waldman: When it comes to sex scandals, the politicians who are the most guilty and the least repentant are the ones who survive.
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
But not any time soon.
Arky Vaughan
I am a Minnesotan who voted twice for Franken and would vote for him again. He is a rare Democrat that calls out the RWNJs on their mendacity. They hate him because he is a thorn in their side.
I see an 8th woman accused him of “grabbing flesh” at her waist. C’mon. We need to change the culture and respect woman but the pendulum has swung too far.
As a Minnesotan here is my prediction: disagree if you’d like but see if it doesn’t come true
December 7th (a day that will live in infamy) Franken resigns
December 12th Roy Moore elected to the Senate in AL. Trump remains president. Franken’s “sins” pale in comparison to those two.
December: Gov Dayton appoints his LT. Gov Tina Smith to be a caretaker Sen. Yes she may vote Democratic but she would never get Jeffrey Beauregard to perjure himself like Franken did. Neither would Amy (Can’t we all get along) Klobuchar. I like Klobuchar but she is too nice.
Fall of 2018 Michelle Bachman slithers out from under a rock to run for Senate – so does Tim Pawlenty. The republicans run a sacrificial lamb against Klobuchar who gets no support. However MILIIONs are poured in to support the winner of Pawlenty/Bachman (Pawlenty).
November 2018 Tim Pawlenty grabs the Senate seat from Minnesota as the Republican take over of MN is now complete.
I predict the Republican will win the Governor race also as long as like Pawlenty he is not a mouth breather – we love “reasonable” right wingers in our state ( or nut jobs if you live in the 6th district which is filled with anti abortion Catholics – that’s the only reason they voted for crazy Michelle).
Mark my words
Yes I understand they had to stop the bleeding otherwise there will more women who claim that Franken touched their waist or made them feel uncomfortable the way he looked at them. Or twenty years ago he bumped them at the supermarket.
I am also wondering if I am through voting for Democrats – I mean why bother? I’ve always said that supporting Democrats is like taking a cooked noodle to a gun fight.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: No thanks!
Mike in DC
@TenguPhule:
It would be nice if you addressed the argument that I actually made, rather than the one you wished I had made. There’s a fairly large group of women who are swing voters. Motivating them to shift left and turn out for, say, a midterm election is kind of a big deal, as we just saw last month. Having an image as a party which does not tolerate sexual harassment, in contrast to one which clearly does, is highly advantageous in this regard. Period. Full stop. I too would have preferred more due process for Senator Franken, but I can understand the underlying reasoning here.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@WarMunchkin: Good. You can have my spot.
Amir Khalid
@WarMunchkin:
If you mean Al Franken, you’re exaggerating.
Yoda Dog
@SFAW: Well hell, on the flip side of that coin, everyone else in this thread has thrown their hands up in the air and said “fuck democrats, we’re all fucking done here.” Have they not? You’re absolutely right, our landslide victory in November will mean nothing if we’ve all decided that Al Franken is the hill we’re going to die on.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
When the fascists finish hollowing out the Republic, and Democrats are all behind the wire for being enemies of the State. Then they’ll start fighting…
With each other, about who is the model prisoner.
jay
They wouldn’t ask him to resign if there was a Republican governor in Minnesota. The “High Roaders” are playing politics just as much as anyone else.
TenguPhule
@WarMunchkin: Meanwhile, the majority will look at those Senators and think “What a bunch of treacherous douches”.
SFAW
@Trollhattan:
1) I believe Stone worked for Nixon
2) Why do you seem to think Stone is not skilled? He usually gets whatever scalp(s) he goes after.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
Say that again after a Democratic Senator with a Republican governor becomes the next victim.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Yoda Dog: With this forced resignation, the Democrats have moved away from being a party of law and due process. I am sick to my bones at this.
Cacti
@Yoda Dog:
The actions of Dem leadership has thoroughly demoralized those who already do vote and donate time and money for the party, in the hopes of some hypothetical gain with unspecified people.
And that’s why we always lose.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Corner Stone: Tell me, were did we accuse Franken of being a ignorant, pre-dementia narcissists man child and a traitor? Astonishing as it sounds Trump disgusting behavior around women isn’t what’s he in trouble for.
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
Its not funny. Because its true.
Kathleen
@ruemara: This is the smartest, most helpful comment I’ve read on this whole issue. Thank you.
Mike in DC
@TenguPhule:
You’re assuming facts not in evidence. If there’s fuckery afoot, and the consequences are greater, caution will abound.
VeniceRiley
I’ve always like Al Franken even though he comes off to me as a bit too in love with himself. I’m sure there is a talented Minnesotan who can shine in the seat.
Emma
@WarMunchkin: I am so proud of you. And if the woman turns out to have lied, well, tough luck. For every other woman who tries to bring an accusation.
Citizen Alan
@Yoda Dog:
Your mistake is in assuming that we will still have a landslide victory. Given the geography and distribution of the Senate seats up next year combined with the fact that we have just put Minnesota in play, I think it’s entirely possible for Trump to have a filibuster-proof majority for the last two years of his first term. During which, with our luck, he’ll get to make one or two Supreme Court nominations.
Ruckus
I don’t want Franklin to resign but it’s also impossible to try to rise above the normal bottom feeders in politics and suggest that the indiscretions of one of ours is better than those of one of theirs. Yes there do seem to be significant differences between many of theirs and ours but aren’t we supposed to be better?
SFAW
@Yoda Dog:
You know, I’m in my 60s, English is my native language, A large part of my job involves writing clearly and concisely, and yet I have no fucking idea what point you’re trying to make with that sentence.
As for your first sentence: I guess you see what you want to see. I, on the other hand, see a lot of pissed-off Dem voters — me included — who are pissed at the own-goal of the Dem “braintrust,” because it’s YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE of purity-pony-ism. But except for my comment about thinking for about a quarter-second that I entertained the notion of not voting Dem, and a similar comment from either Immanentize or Schlemazel (sorry kids, don’t remember, and too lazy to look), I don’t see people saying “Fuck it, I’m voting Rethug, or staying home”
AliceBlue
@WarMunchkin:
Well aren’t you special.
Mike in DC
@PJ: Having a clear position on harassment gives us an advantage with persuadable voters going forward, particularly those who might be repulsed by the thought of Roy Moore in the Senate.
Mnemosyne
@Knight of Nothing:
How do you “call out” an abuse survivor whose PTSD you accidentally triggered by squeezing her waist?
TenguPhule
@hellslittlestangel:
There is always another pair of gloves underneath.
Like Russian dolls, but made of wool from the ears.
SteveNKY
there are no “backsies.”
the GOP Machine targeted Al Franken for questioning Jeff Sessions.
the purity ring and zero tolerance crowd “somberly & regretfully” drummed him out.
perceptions greater than evidence wins the day.
doesn’t a penitent man always kneel for the executioner?
PJ
@Mike in DC: By swing voters, do you mean all of the white women who voted for Trump?
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
Just as it was in 2016, what with all the white women voting for Hillary, pushing her over the top so spectacularly.
ETA: Darn you to heck, PJ!
Yoda Dog
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Well I still need your help fighting the GOP. I don’t know what to tell you, I’m disappointed too, but I only have so much room for sickness in my heart and the traitors on the other side fill and refill that reservoir every single day.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
Franken is proof you are not only wrong, but really fucking wrong.
Kathleen
@different-church-lady: I was on a Twitter thread where we wrote Mainslime Media headlines about her death (prompted by comment that media will never stop hectoring her even in death.)
Mnemosyne
@WarMunchkin:
Make sure not to touch the waist of any of the women in your group when you pose for pictures with them. That is now sexual assault worthy of being drummed out of the group.
Kathleen
@different-church-lady: I for one demand that the Clinton grandchildren resign
zhena gogolia
@bluefish:
That’s about where I am. Why does Trump get a pass? Why? Why? Why?
Emma
@Mike in DC: you are joking. Most people I know who are not already committed republicans do not make “the man is the party” judgments. If THEIR candidate looks ckean they won’t reject him just because he has an r after his name.
Mike in DC
@PJ: No, all the ones who showed up to flip the House of Delegates in Virginia and put Ralph Northam in the governor’s office.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
2016: Having a clear position on jobs and the economy will give Hillary Clinton an advantage over Donald Trump.
2010: Having a clear position on Health Insurance will give Democrats an advantage over Teabagging Republicans.
zhena gogolia
@Mike in DC:
This is the most I can hope for. But my supply of hope is running dry.
Cacti
@Mike in DC:
If voters really and truly cared about virtue signaling, why do Republicans control all 3 branches of the Federal government, a large majority of Governorships, and a large majority of State legislatures?
Your hypothesis of advantage gained is without support in a real world setting.
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
Having a clear position on Anthropogenic Global Warming gives us an advantage with persuadable voters going forward, particularly those who might be repulsed by the thought of Donald Trump in the Oval Office.
And frankly, fixing AGW is a fuckload more important than purity on sexual harassment.
Knight of Nothing
@Mnemosyne: if it’s bad actors behind it, I expect Franken would call them out.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Jack the Second:
Conyers issue is he had a settlement for harassment against him. So, there’s been some kind of due processes.
Mnemosyne
@Knight of Nothing:
How does he “call out” anonymous accusers?
Does it really not bother you at all that we don’t know who his accusers are?
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
And if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. And if I were 6-foot-8, with great hand-eye coordination, great dribbling and passing, speed, quickness, and could hit 3-pointers from 50 feet all day, then I might have been a pro basketball player
Elizabelle
@efgoldman: Have missed you, efg, and so glad you are back.
Yes. Echoes of ACORN and Shirley Sherrod, with stench of ratfucking. Wonder if Roger Stone is three sheets in celebration at this hour. Tough senator. Easy pickings. And he got the wimmens to do his dirty work, all around.
PJ
@Mike in DC: Virginia has voted Democratic in the last three presidential elections. Getting rid of Al Franken is not going to change the fortunes of the party there, nor, I predict, with voters anywhere else in the country, except in Minnesota, where there is a decent chance his seat will go to a Republican in the next election.
Ultimately, I think we disagree as to whether voters care which party has the “moral high ground”; you think it matters, I think voters don’t give a rat’s ass. If they did, we wouldn’t have a Republican Congress or President.
ETA: I see that Cacti beat me to this point.
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
No doubt because sexual harassment issues and debates were the key determinant in that race.
Schlemazel
@Arky Vaughan:
I am a minnesotan who worked my first campaign 59 years ago (Joe Karth 4CD) and been a regular ever since (save for my time in FLA). You described what I expect given what I know about the State perfectly. The Dems have nobody with Pawlenty’s name recognition that has ever won a statewide election. Despite Timmy screwing the state over big time he is still popular with the rural half of the state. He is worse that Coleman who was as scummy a corporate whore as we have ever sent to the Senate.
Cacti
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
While Blake Farenthold paid out a larger settlement for the same reason, isn’t resigning, and isn’t retiring at the end of his term.
zhena gogolia
@Cacti:
You’re easily demoralized.
We’re in a fight to save the U.S. of A. I’m not giving up because of this.
Kathleen
@joel hanes: And the Russians.
PJ
@Knight of Nothing: How can he find out if there are bad actors behind it, since there will no longer be any investigation?
TenguPhule
@Yoda Dog: Get ready to eat a ton of crow alongside Betty Cracker and ruemara and everyone else who turned on Al Franken.
We’re on a course to lose 2018 and 2020. And the blame is going to be shared by Republican ratfuckers and the people who kept falling for the ratfucking.
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
Because the only winning move is to actually stay in office.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Uh, ruemara never turned on Al Franken. Quite the contrary. Re-read what she actually said and then apologize to her.
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
Will you fucking stop already? Moore was somewhat beyond “sexual harassment,” and his (possible) loss will not be because Franken’s resignation purportedly gave the Dems the “moral high ground,” which translated into Jones votes.
MuckJagger
@Arky Vaughan: I think it’s more likely Norm Coleman would run. Not as crazy as Bachmann, but definitely a vote the R’s would *always* be able to count on no matter how crazy the bill.
Schlemazel
@VeniceRiley:
Go ahead and name one. Name one that has won statewide office & has name recognition that has the wherewithal to run against Pawlenty (the Koch whore) and the money they will pour into the fabulous opportunity we have given them. I’ll wait, I am still waiting since I asked this question earlier when someone posted that shit. The 3 commenters I know are from MN have all said the same thing but since you are so damn sure please point the savior out because I will sign up for their campaign today
bluefish
@@Cacti: Isn’t that we always buy a bit extra?
Mike in DC
@SFAW:
What level of sexual harassment involving a sitting Senator should be acceptable to the Party, going forward? How politically effective do you think Sen. Franken was likely to be, versus the political costs of retention?
Schlemazel
@Ruckus:
I’ll point out one big difference – Als accusers are either known liars with suspect motive or wildly inflated (“HE PUT HIS ARM AROUND MY WAIST WHILE WE TOOK A PICTURE!!!!!!!”)
Yoda Dog
@TenguPhule: Yea, no, we’re going to crush them in 2018. I won’t forget your comments here today either, sir.
bluefish
@Cacti: We don’t always lose.
Schlemazel
@Mnemosyne:
If she is so damaged she can’t take a little side hug during a photo op perhas she should never ever have a picture taken with another person beside he.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: I didn’t “turn on Al Franken,” you hysterical nitwit.* If you can’t make any more sense than that, kindly keep my fake name out of your mouth.
*This is me abiding by the spirit of my plea up top to elevate the discussion. Otherwise, I’d encourage you to eat a bag of Sriracha-spiced dicks.
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
Just fucking stop. You’ve migrated from demonstrating your naivete, to being an asshole. “What level of sexual harassment?” I don’t know, why don’t we have a fucking ethics investigation to see how much there was?
No, let’s not, because we have the moral high ground now, so let’s quit while we’re ahead, because doing so will translate into a generation-long shift to Dem control of all three branches of Government.
What level of naivete do you need to demonstrate for everyone here decide you’re a moron? Hmm, opinions differ.
Cacti
@zhena gogolia:
Assumes facts not in evidence.
I’ve seen no indication that elected Democrats are in a fight with anyone but their own.
Schlemazel
@Schlemazel:
Norm has stage 3 throat cancer. It is bad enough that he is using experimental therapy from Mayo Clinic. He is done, at least for politics. I have talked to him a couple time in the last year & he is not well at all.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@No Drought No More:
Except that cuts both ways, a male voter might see Franken getting fired for things he did in a previous job and just being assumed guilty with no do process as very threatening. Then again most voters seem to forget after six months.
Scotian
@Cacti:
And here you have a major source of my frustration. When it is this obvious to a Canadian in Halifax and has been now for many many years, WTF is the excuse of those whose party this is, this nation it is, and the fact that what your nation does has global consequences purely because of its inherent power, be it social, cultural, economic, or military! I saw back in the flipping 90s with Clinton and Gingrich what was coming, and how bad this could get, so please, all you political masterminds who think that virtue signalling is the great hope and way back for the Dems, please, answer this question:
ON WHAT EVIDENCE???
You know, that thing called factually based evidence, and not faith hope and good feelings stuff that seems to be dominating this line of reasoning.
Insanity is defined by many as repeating the same action expecting a different result. I hear that all the time from purity ponies and their boosters when applied to the Democratic Party establishment and machinery and how it is only their way to save everything (despite a remarkable lack of political success in such), how’s about they try asking.themselves that question and trying to answer it for a change. How about trying to not purifying all the time and maybe start nuancing again.
This is getting very worrisome for those of us forced to watch and live with the results yet have zero say in it.
Yoda Dog
@Cacti:
Yea, I forgot how the dems all voted for Gorsuch and the Obamacare repeal and the tax scam. Good call.
cleek
@The Moar You Know:
wasn’t much of a problem to do (haven’t asked Alain to make it live, yet)
but, if you are ever just dying to know, hit F12 on your keyboard, find the “Console” tab, type “localStorage”. it will spit out whatever your browser is keeping in local storage. then look for “BJAutoPieNamesList”. that’s the full list. should work in FF, Chrome and Edge.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Fine, let me rephrase.
Abandoned at the first sign of the enemy because he’s expendable.
SFAW
@Schlemazel:
Harold Stassen? If I lived in MN, I’d vote for him.
Cacti
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Or a male voter who hears about Tina Dupuy saying she was “groped” by Franken because he put his arm around her in a picture, and doesn’t even like her husband putting his arm around her.
Hmmm…what could be done with that? Right: “Democrats want to make it illegal to put your arm around your wife.”
Schlemazel
@SFAW:
My hope is that the former St. Paul Mayor, whose name is also Colman, will run. He has not shown a great instinct for the job but enough of the boobs out in the sticks may mistake him for the previous StP Mayor Coleman & vote for him by accident.
CindyH
@AliceBlue: exactly how I feel – I could hardly believe that this country elected trump, and now OUR OWN PARTY has pushed a valuable public servant out of office without even a chance to proceed with an investiagation. There is no side for me to be on now.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
This was part of the comment you thought was good.
The sentiment to abandon our own engineers no expectation of loyalty in return.
If you want more and better Democrats, this is not the way to do it.
Mike in DC
@SFAW:
Actually, I called for due process and proportionality when this all started, and there was a single allegation. There are now 8 or 9, by last count, including at least two additional allegations of forcible kissing, during a period of heightened attention and sensitivity to the issue.
The ethics committee investigation, as I understand it, is a secretive, nonpublic, murky process of uncertain length, and it is by no means certain that the Senator would come out of the process fully exonerated. While I would still prefer due process, unless there’s a date certain to the end of that process, at some point political considerations do rear their ugly head. A senator under a dark cloud is a less effective public servant. That cloud, in this case, extends to the rest of his colleagues. At some point, you have to expect that the impulse to pull the plug will be overwhelming.
As to my purported idiocy, I don’t know much Latin, but I do know what argumentum ad hominem means, and I’ll thank you to keep it civil.
PJ
@SFAW: Hell, why not Hubert Humphrey? He’s got a big name nationwide . . .
But seriously, Walter Mondale is still alive . . .
Brachiator
@Mike in DC:
Good question. It’s open to debate. Are all levels of bothering equal, and should a forced resignation be the only remedy?
Hint: zero tolerance is for fools and moral scolds.
Another good question. Could he have been rehabilitated?
Of course, now we will never know.
TenguPhule
@Scotian:
Don’t be silly, Prayers and good thoughts are cheaper.
CindyH
@ruemara: but the point is that resigning BEFORE the investigation stops the investigation from happening. period. So a valuable opportunity to have a public discussion that might air out just what harassment can look like has been lost.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
8.
3 confirmed Republicans, one of whom is a professional ratfucker at FOX. None of their stories matches available evidence.
3 anon bullshit accusers with stories that don’t stand up either.
1 anon accuser claiming to be a Democratic staffer. Politico source so no telling how well she was vetted before they ran it.
1 completely bullshit accusation about him touching a WAIST during a photo request together that she initiated.
Quantity, but no quality to it.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
She’s stating reality: the Democrats in the Senate left Franken twisting in the wind and he had no choice but to resign. That doesn’t mean she likes it or agrees with it or thinks the allegations are true.
Mike in DC
@CindyH: I think it’s a valid point, and at the same time the problem is the lack of transparency of the ethics committee process. If there had been a hearing scheduled and a projected end date, maybe they could have held off until then.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: President Obama understood the truth in what Ruemara said and lived by it. He was a pretty damn good Democrat too. But the point is, acknowledging reality and urging folks to move forward isn’t the same as “turning on Al Franken.” And it makes a helluva lot more sense than your hysterics and doomsaying.
Tehanu
@CindyH:
“Kangaroo courts” is exactly what worries me, along with the general atmosphere of sanctimonious prudery. Heywood G at Hammer of the Blogs (link: http://hammeroftheblogs.blogspot.com/2017/12/advanced-calvinball.html) had a good thing this morning:
@Elizabelle:
Yes!
Mike in DC
@TenguPhule:
Franken: “my accusers are lying!”
Moore: “Hey, mine too!”
Trump: “me too!”
Do you see the problem? Are those distinctions going to be clear enough to persuade the public and the media?
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: That’s not stating reality, that’s stating her personal philosophy of “oh well, he was expendable”. She’s not willing to stand up for him because she thinks its a hill not worth dying on.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@CindyH: Exactly this. We had an opportunity to establish investigation as an appropriate response to allegations. We failed, apparently because Gillibrand was tired of being asked about it.
Franken might well have resigned after an investigation, but this has never been about keeping Franken at all costs. It’s about being the adults in the room instead of running around like scared toddlers.
Proceed with your moral panic, everyone.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
He needed our support. What he got was abandoned by rank and file.
You may not see that as turning on one of our own, but I do.
This will bite us in the ass hard come election time. We are going to get none of the credit and all of the blame as a party.
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
Whatever. I’ll try to be on my best behavior — whatever that is, since I’m not known for it — if you cut the crap with the bullshit “How much is too much?” hypotheticals. I’m still waiting to see/hear an actual list of things he actually did, other than the Tweeden thing. The Dupuy/Depuy thing is, as the saying goes, a nothingburger.
But, frankly, boorish behavior, while annoying, is not a capital offense — unless one is a Dem, apparently. With Rethugs, it’s a feature, not a bug.
ETA: For what it’s worth: an ad hominem “argument” is made without addressing the merits of the target’s argument. You, on the other hand, were displaying the “value” of your “argument” well before I commented on your, um, capabilities.
Cacti
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Gillibrand has definitely shown her true colors of late. Crapping on the Clintons now that she doesn’t need them politically, and throwing a fellow Democratic Senator under the bus because he’d become temporarily inconvenient to her.
I’ll never vote for a ticket with that backstabber’s name on it.
It would make me smile if Hillary came out of retirement just to primary her ass.
Mike in DC
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
At minimum, I think reform of the Ethics committee process is warranted. Prompt, time limited, transparent and fair should be the goal.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
Yes, that you’re either extremely dense or deliberately ignoring the facts on the ground.
Moore is denying it flat. The evidence and third party references are showing he’s lying.
Trump is literally denying a tape of himself admitting his actions.
Franken has literally only one photo against him that doesn’t back up his accuser’s claims.
If you can’t tell the difference, you’re not reachable in the first place.
SFAW
@PJ:
Him, too. (I’m embarrassed that I forgot him.)
SFAW
@TenguPhule:
Ad hominem! Ad hominem!
At least, according to the understanding of some persons.
patroclus
@Mike in DC: Really?? Please describe in detail your problem with the ethics investigation into Senator Franken. I’m guessing you can’t because it never occurred. The goal should be to have an investigation – criticism and reform could happen afterwards or during its tenure. Instead, the overwhelming impulse to form a lynch mob prevailed. And because there was never an investigation that could be criticized, we will never know what really happened. So much for your initial call for due process.
Mike in DC
@SFAW: 3 allegations of forcible kissing. 4 or 5 allegations of butt grabbing during photos. The former are obviously more serious. Shoving your tongue in someone’s mouth is a bit more than boorish.
I think part of the problem with waiting for the ethics committee investigation was this:
“The ethics committee is going to look into this.”
“Great! When do they start?”
“I don’t know.”
“How long will it take?”
“I don’t know. ”
“Will they come to a definite conclusion?”
“Maybe, maybe not.”
“If they do, what happens next?”
“Not sure. Might be censured, might be expelled, might be exonerated. But they often can’t agree.”
Yeah…can we stipulate to that being sub-optimal in the he world of politics and public accountability?
The more the allegations mounted, the more at risk his position became.
Yoda Dog
@TenguPhule: Noone is going to be talking about Al Franken next november, including you. That might not have been the case if we we were “winning” more by putting Franken’s entire adult past under a microscope for an extremely partisan senate hearing throughout all of next year. That’s a horrible fucking idea, is what that is.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
What part of Republicans and anon accusations are you having a hard time comprehending?
Is the concept of women who lie really that hard to grasp?
TenguPhule
@Yoda Dog:
Keep whistling as you dig into the Indian Graveyard.
I will keep the crow nice and hot for you.
Mike in DC
@TenguPhule:
What happened to “believe women”?
Is it now “believe women,but these b—-s are lying?”
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: Well, keep predicting DOOM in every thread and senselessly attacking other commenters, then. That’ll be super helpful!
@Cacti: Even if she’s the nominee in 2020 against Trump? If so, you’re no better than Susan Sarandon.
Yoda Dog
@TenguPhule: Really? If you’re right and we lose badly next year, do you have any idea what an utter and total disaster that would be for this country? For democracy? YOU DO! I know you know.
And you’re going to come back and feed me some crow then? Grow up.
Mnemosyne
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Sadly, this. Democrats have now fulfilled every stereotype about themselves by declaring that waist-grabbing and molesting 14-year-olds is the same thing. God help us all.
patroclus
@Mike in DC: Huh? Should all due process be suspended in civil and criminal cases because we don’t know how long they will take??!! Or what the outcome will be?? Should Tawana Brawley have just been believed because she made multiple allegations??!! Your attempt to justify a lynch mob is not very convincing.
Cacti
@Mike in DC:
It’s a simplistic statement whose logical endpoint is a presumption of guilt against any man accused, which also happens to be patently unconstitutional.
Medicine Man
If I were Roger Stone, I would work hard on getting Leeann Tweeden some lucrative appearances in wingnut media. Two weeks before the mid-terms. Take a real victory lap.
It would not be too hard to create the impression that accusations of the sort Tweeden leveled are mostly fabricated to attack successful men and to imply that Dems are fine with people being considered guilty until proven innocent.
It is just depressing all around.
Tata
Welp, the ratf*ckers win and the Dems lose. Again.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
No, that’s stating her personal philosophy as a Black woman that she’s well used to getting screwed by purported “allies” who decide she’s expendable but has to keep working towards justice anyway. That’s why she compared Franken to Obama. This shit is not fair, but there’s no opportunity to take your toys and go home for minorities and women just because something unfair happened.
Cacti
@Betty Cracker:
She won’t be.
patroclus
@TenguPhule: Your constant tendency to personally attack other BJ posters is not productive. Calm down. Your presence on every single thread has made BJ non-enjoyable.
Tehanu
@Mike in DC:
You and several other commenters keep going on and on about the “moral high ground.” What moral high ground is there in forcing a resignation based on un-investigated, unproved allegations? How is that standing up for the rule of law and due process and the Constitution? Oh, wait, it’s “sub-optimal in the he world of politics” to wait for an investigation, so that makes blowing off due process okay, and that gives us the moral high ground? Much as you’d obviously like to, you can’t have it both ways.
Mnemosyne
@Yoda Dog:
You’re kidding, right? Franken is going to show up in every Republican mailing in Minnesota In 2018 as “Democrat sexual predator Al Franken.”
The Jews will not replace us crowd is going to have a field day with this shit forever.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
When the evidence is not there, I don’t believe the women with an obvious political agenda.
But then again, I’m not an idiot.
Mike in DC
@patroclus:
The ethics committee investigation, as constituted, is a secretive process with zero transparency. That’s a big problem when it comes to issues like this. Lacking a definitive timetable is also problematic.
Cacti
@patroclus:
Or the time when D.A. Mike Nifong tried to withhold exculpatory DNA evidence in the Duke Lacrosse case?
I guess he thought “all women should be believed” despite what the evidence told him.
AliceBlue
@Mike in DC:
As a commenter above stated, believing women means (1) taking their accusations seriously and then thoroughly investigating them (which did not happen here) and (2) women’s’ accusations should not automatically turn into verdicts.
Mike in DC
@Tehanu:
The allegations against Trump and Moore are also untested in courts of law or investigative committees, but the demand for consequences nonetheless persists.
TenguPhule
@Yoda Dog:
I fully expect you to blame me for our loss at that time. Because I didn’t pray and clap hard enough to revive TInkerbell.
rikyrah
@Elizabelle:
ICAM
Mike in DC
@AliceBlue: Ad hominem bingo.
But “believe women” is the message of the day, and “these particular women are lying” completely undermines that message.
TenguPhule
@patroclus: I’m upset. Really upset. I’m probably taking some of this out on people I shouldn’t. But in my defense, I plead extreme provocation from certain other parties.
Cacti
@Mike in DC:
Which of the following is black letter Constitutional law:
A. “Due process”
B. “Believe women”
rikyrah
@Elizabelle:
That article was a piece of shyt.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
Fuck the message. The message is corrupted. The message is an ex-message.
#metoo is now a fucking weapon. And we’ve just unilaterally disarmed.
TenguPhule
@rikyrah:
Take that back! Apologize to good honest shit everywhere!
Mnemosyne
@Mike in DC:
Unlike Trump and Moore we have no idea who the majority of Franken’s accusers are and, once we do get more details, their accusations turn out to be less than advertised. The woman whose blaring headline in the Atlantic said she was “groped” by Franken turned out to be someone who had her waist squeezed during a photo. Not her ass or her breast — her waist.
And for that, he was forced to summarily resign.
And you have just endorsed the view that squeezing someone’s waist during a photo op is just as bad — if not worse — than molesting a 14-year-old.
Skepticat
@No Drought No More:
This may be the single worst aspect. Democrats in general seem to want to do the right, pure thing even though paying high personal and professional costs, thereby leaving the field (and control) to Repugnicants who seem to have no qualms about anyfreakingthing—which hurts all of us. The Rs go low—but we go lower because we grovel. There are elements of scale here. I much prefer someone who might be a minor (former) boor to the hypocrites who are real rapists (of our country, and perhaps other people) and killers (of our economy), who unabashedly brag about assaulting women or are pedophiles. This has created a template for the next minor infraction, or perception thereof, to bring the death penalty. I wish he’d stayed and fought; I hope only that he’ll fight from the private sector. I am inutterably depressed.
patroclus
@Mike in DC: I completely disagree. The ethics process has worked on numerous occasions, with adequate transparency and due process. Packwood, Frank, Gingrich, Wright and many others are good examples. You are trying to justify doing away with the entire process and you are citing no concrete examples, because you have none, certainly not in the case of Franken. Joining a lynch mob is not in keeping with American values; neither is dispensing with the will of the voters.
eemom
@TenguPhule:
Jayzus, where did all these “civility” trolls come from? Am I on the wrong blog?
I think yer doing fine, and not just because I’ve agreed with you pretty constantly over these last sickening days.
Mike in DC
@Mnemosyne:
No, I haven’t. I’ve endorsed the view that clarity beats nuance, politically speaking. This was the worst time for these allegations to come out, and it severely limited the viable options for both Franken and his colleagues. Part of politics is making tough calls. Let’s say they got this one wrong. It’s really not hard to see why they made the play they did.
JoeyJoeJoe Junior Shabadoo
@amygdala: colleen hanabusa, a member of the House, is the one running.
notoriousJRT
@Elizabelle: Baby, bathwater. I have thought so since the beginning. I will call my lady senators Murray and Cantwell to say so. Gillibrand’s stock had dropped in my eyes.
Mike in DC
@patroclus:
I’m arguing that the process needs to be expedited and more transparent, if we’re going to avoid instant summary judgment in the future. The public has to see the process and trust that process. A vague sense that “something will happen, someday” is insufficient.
It took years to get rid of Packwood.
JoeyJoeJoe Junior Shabadoo
@Schlemazel: Minnesota is one of the few states where every statewide elected official is a Dem. I wouldn’t assume a GOP win.
Tehanu
@Mike in DC:
Yeah, at least by me — the consequences being investigation and proof under the due process standards set by the fkg Constitution, Mike. That’s what happened in Watergate, but perhaps you’re too young to remember that (though that’s no excuse; read a book). Nixon didn’t resign when the first “allegations” were published, and though I’ve hated Nixon all my life, and he was guilty as hell, he shouldn’t have resigned then, because allegations are not proof. He resigned when Congress held lengthy hearings that transformed the allegations to charges based on evidence and a resolution to impeach him.
eemom
Late to the thread, obvs, but I have this to say. If Gillibrand et al had not pulled that shitshow yesterday, the following two PRODUCTIVE things could BOTH have happened: (1) the allegations against Franken could have been investigated, and (2) little things like the republicans’ plan to kill us all with the tax monstrosity, the looming government shutdown, and Dump’s trying to bring on armageddon in the ME might be getting a bit of attention today instead of this fucking 24/7 circular firing squad.
Miss Bianca
@Brachiator: Now, we don’t. I’m done with defending Democrats. Hell, at this point, I may be done with being a Democrat. We are dumber than dirt. We claim “the high moral ground”, while Republicans are winning. And laughing at us.
lol chikinburd
Steaming to another TBogg on the strength of the same half-dozen people posting over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Sorry I can’t play—I have a shrink appointment and a job—but just know that the effect on everyone else is to convince them “Fuck this place; whatever I wanted to ask isn’t worth taking this shit from these people”. And to reinforce negativity about the Democratic brand; that’s important too. Is Democratic politics a shitshow? Well, if you insist and insist and insist and insist and insist and insist.
To anyone replying, my answer is probably going to be “The feeling is mutual”. (And I know this post “doesn’t help”, but “helping” doesn’t seem to be on today’s menu.)
patroclus
@Mike in DC: Once again, I disagree. Due process investigations should be thorough – not “expedited.” That is the essence of justice and the rule of law. Some cases and controversies take years, but better results result from that and the process is respected.
Yoda Dog
@TenguPhule: And you are basing that assumption on the JACK-SHIT you know about me because I can absolutely guarantee that you will be the very last thing on my mind if we lose the elections.
daveNYC
Evil will win because good is stupid.
Mike in DC
@patroclus:
Most of these claims lie past the statute of limitations and aren’t actionable in tort or in criminal court. Ergo, we are in the nether realm of politics and public accountability. A 3 year ethics investigation is incompatible with public accountability for elected officials.
Scotian
@Tehanu:
Repeated because IMHO makes a core point being overlooked. Process exists for a reason, due process even more so, and the willingness to throw it all away on so flimsy a basis for the sake of virtue signalling yet again as if this time it is going to be the silver bullet that reverse the near total control of America by the GOP for the Dems. I phrased that quite intentionally, because between the federal and State levels the GOP is only a couple of States away from being able to rewrite the US Constitution legally by its own requirements. That this is not terrifying more of the purity police of/on the left I find frankly baffling beyond my ability to put into words, and when you consider just what kind of bloviating verbose windbag I can be, no small standard being exceeded there.
ETA: My first BJ TBogg…not even trying for one and I get one, pity I can’t get that in other aspects of life…LOL
TenguPhule
@daveNYC: We never fucking learn.
TenguPhule
@eemom:
But we’re not allowed to have nice things.
JoeyJoeJoe Junior Shabadoo
@TenguPhule: Farenthold does have a significant challenger in the GOP primary, the chair of the Victoria County GOP. He could lose.
Mike in DC
For the record:
1. I advocated for patience and due process when this began.
2. 3 weeks passed and the situation worsened politically for Franken and his colleagues.
3. I disagree with the decision to “pull the plug”, but I understand why they made that tough call.
4. The investigative process needs to be reformed precisely so that we can avoid being jammed up like this.
5. There are potential upsides to this, and where they exist we should exploit them. Exposing ratfcks like Stone might be one example.
geg6
@eemom:
Yes. Gillibrand is dead to me. She’s worthless.
bearcalypse
Now that Democrats have equated waist touching as butt grabbing and shoulder touching as breast fondling, everyone better follow Mike Pence’s example and have their “Mother” follow them around for any interaction with another human.
MCA1
What’s most astounding to me is the idea that Gillibrand, et. al. might think this is some sort of strategic win for the party. They can’t think that, right? I mean, maybe if the entire party all jumped up on a soapbox and started screaming for Farenthold’s and Moore’s and whoever else’s heads while saying “Look how pure we are and how craven Republicans are!”, it would be semi-rational to think that people will even notice the difference in reaction between the parties to this sort of thing. But they won’t do that, because they’re incapable of it. And the media wouldn’t help them do it even if they could pull it off, because it’s addicted to false equivalency and incapable of pointing out distinctions. Not to mention that there are 84 separate crises of an order of magnitude greater than this instigated daily by the White House and the GOP Congress, so they wouldn’t be able to cut through that noise AND it would irresponsible to be so focused on this moral issue in the midst of the existential clusterbombs exploding all over the place. They’re relying on individuals to give them credit for their moral purity without demanding it, in 2017 America. That is so fucking deluded it’s a joke. Like, did y’all see what happened last November? Have you seen the Moore/Jones polling?
Instead they’ve set a precedent, for Democrats only, of course, that even allegations of what, on a 1-10 scale of sexual impropriety can’t possibly register above a 2 (while there’ll be a Senator from Alabama in a week with a score of 7 or 8, and a Republican President at the same level), means you’re out. No Republicans or independents are nodding their heads at the righteousness of the Democratic Party in contrast to the cravenness of the GOP and saying “Yeah, I’m gonna go with those guys from now on.” Zero.
It would have been so easy to announce “We’re going to have this national conversation about male bad behavior, and we’re going to do it through the prism of Al Franken’s REQUESTED Ethics Committee Investigation. When will Paul Ryan schedule an investigation of Blake Fahrenthold?”
mapaghimagsik
Congratulations on your victory.
Miss Bianca
@Elizabelle: I have never felt like this before, but I’m with you now. I can’t believe I was spending so much damn time defending the national Democrats from charges levelled by friends on both the left and the right. But I’m done with it now. Oh, i’ll still vote for Democrats. But i’m done with trying to persuade people that they are actually a *good* choice, rather than the lesser – the shrivlled, pathetic lesser – of two evils.
For the first time since I first registered as a Democrat, back in 1984, I feel like dropping that registration and becoming an independent.
Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot
@Mike in DC:
The naivete, it burns.
AliceBlue
I know there are some here who don’t care for Charles Pierce, but his column today is worth a read. Especially the last sentence:
Mike in DC
I’m hardly naive. If losing Franken motivates people, including journos, to go hard at people like Stone, Cernovich, Bannon, O’Keefe, et al, that’s an upside. Jesus, people, sometimes the guys in charge are going to make a tough call you don’t like and disagree with. But we’re supposed to be the party of compassion, empathy, understanding and good faith. The least you can do, after the anger subsides, is make an honest effort to understand the call, taking their intentions in good faith.
NobodySpecial
@Betty Cracker: Don’t worry, wait till they break out the ‘Al woulda won against Trump’ stuff. After all, those two sound just like Wilmer fans right now.
PJ
@Mike in DC: I would be more understanding of the “guys in charge” if they did not decide to override the will of the people of Minnesota.
joel hanes
@PJ:
you … bullshit
I’m glad your foresight and perception are so good.
Many other people in the nation were not so fortunate wrt the AUMF vote.
Not all of them were evil.
Have a fine solstice festival, and the best to you and yours in the New Year.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
Which is why it decided to knife Franken in the back over sketchy allegations.
Caravelle
@Schlemazel: Yeah, those purity ponies are the worst! They’re the reason for the worst Republican excesses of the last twenty years! They make you so angry you… threaten to vote straight Republican just to spite them?
If you don’t mean it, maybe consider taking ten deep breaths and taking a day off the internet. If you do mean it, maybe stop and consider your life & choices.
PJ
@joel hanes: I never said they were all evil, I said some were stupid, too.
Happy Holidays to you too!
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
and 12 cases of thinking impure thoughts about a woman not his wife.
Or maybe not: @TenguPhule:
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
Right. And then in the very next sentence you wrote:
Oh, I know, “it’s a conditional! It’s not a statement of fact! I was just saying ‘what if?’ ”
But tell us again how you’re not naive.
TenguPhule
@MCA1:
But that wouldn’t be as satisfying as crucifying one of our best in order to fuck up the party for the personal political advantage of Gillibrand.
Damned at Random
OK, this is my take (as a female engineer, accustomed to dealing with social awkward men):
1. Some men have no clue how to flirt and they are becoming increasingly confused. Hence, if a man lays his hand on your clothed body in a manner that makes you uncomfortable, take that hand and move it, He’ll get the message and may well apologize, This is not an HR level offense. (Unless it’s your superior- they are held to a higher standard)
2. Women are not saints. I will listen to a woman and give her the benefit of the doubt, but her story has to hold water. If a coworker rapes you and you wait 16 years to go to HR, I question your veracity. Can’t help it – 16 years of sexual harassment training before the light goes on? Give me a break.
3. At some point between the ages of 16 and 25, every sentient woman learns to deal with unwanted advances. Circumstances matter – abuse in a domestic situation is a hard problem, but in a social/work environment, you have options and do not need to accept victimhood. If you do accept harassment for any extended period of time, you have made a choice. Own up to it.
I wasn’t born cynical, but I have no patience for helpless women, They drag us all down
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: ICAM?
never mind, I figured it out just as I clicked to post the comment. I couldn’t agree more.
WaterGirl
@notoriousJRT:
I agree with you, if by “dropped”, you mean fallen through the floor all the way to China.
WaterGirl
@eemom: Could not agree more. I am furious at the stupidity and heartbroken about the consequences.
edited
Mike in DC
@SFAW:
There are people going hard at all of those guys. It will take time for that work to bear fruit.
Mike in DC
@TenguPhule: clearly you are exemplifying the spirit of good faith argumentation.
JaneSays
@different-church-lady: He’s still a United States senator for a few more weeks.
Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot
@Mike in DC: Your #5 statement I quoted is incredibly naive (meaning, I’m not sure you even believe it). Stone’s been ratfucking since the Nixon years, and he’s as “exposed” as he’s likely ever gonna get. And even if he somehow got “more exposed” (whatever that would mean) as the fascist ratfucker he is, what the hell difference would that make?
And the feckless Democratic Party, which just scored an own-goal here on this ratfuck of Franken (which is what it was) is somehow going to exploit this for electoral gain?
You’re trying to find a silver lining in this shitty situation that doesn’t exist, or is very thin gruel at best (to mix some metaphors). Sorry to say, but that is bleedingly-obvious political naivete, whether you accept it or not.
Pierce’s quote in AliceBlue’s comment right after mine above is dispositive on the efficacy of this Moral High Ground bullshit.
debit
@JoeyJoeJoe Junior Shabadoo: Minnesota put Norm fucking Coleman in Paul Wellstone’s seat after his tragic death. I wouldn’t count on Minnesotans to do anything right. And I speak as one of them.
Mike in DC
@Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot: Stone is being used as a Trump “source” by NYT journalists. Exposing that and hammering away at stuff like that can bear fruit. They stop going to him, stop taking anything he’s behind at face value, etc. Doesn’t happen without a lot of work.
What was the upside of standing by Franken as accusations mounted? Did we 100% know for sure he’d be vindicated? Was there reason to doubt that would happen? Was there a political cost to sticking by him? Etc. Don’t equate pragmatic decisions with cowardice.
Anotherlurker
@TenguPhule: I called Gillibrand’s office today a vented to some poor intern. I informed him that I am a former constituent of her’s who, voted for her, argued for her and contributed to her campaigns. I expressed my opinion that the Senator is a cynical opportunist who piled on Frankin’s case for political gain.
I informed the kid that I will register as an Independent from here on in.
I did not say that I am also a pragmatist who will vote for her, should she run for president. I will hold my nose (after stuffing cottonballs coated with Vicks up my sinus cavities), and pull the lever for any Dem who runs for any office.
notoriousJRT
@WaterGirl: I cannot say it has fallen that far for me. It may, but I am not there yet.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC: Clearly you’re ignoring all of the other points that have been repeatedly brought up that shoot your arguments to pieces.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Anyone have a list of male Democratic Senators from states with Republican Governors? Asking for my friend Roger. Thanks.
/s
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
Voters respect standing up for one of your own. That you can’t appreciate this simple fact of life is bewildering.
Anotherlurker
@Skepticat: I’m sorry folks, but I have another comment: The hatchet job on Senator Frankin is the Dems telling the public that “Both parties really are alike” and tasteless, sophmoric behavior by a comedian, in a rehersal, is the exact moral equivelent of stalking 14 year olds at a shopping mall, sending dick pics., raping a 14 year old, getting caught in a motel room with an underaged male prostitue, etc.
Sergio Lopez-Luna
@Mike in DC: If you think that Franken leaving was a good thing in itself and it was worth it even if it costs us the MN Senate seat (and maybe any hope of controlling the Senate) then say it and stop saying that this is good for the Democrats!
Mike in DC
@TenguPhule:
If there are, they weren’t raised by you.
Mike in DC
@TenguPhule:
There’s a fine line between defending your own and stonewalling. As the number of accusations mount, the line starts to blur. Should they have waited for the number of accusers to hit double digits? Triple digits? Try to live in the real world, please.
Mike in DC
@Sergio Lopez-Luna: Where did I say that? I said that while I didn’t necessarily agree with the call, but that under the circumstances it was understandable, and that we should try to get past our anger in order to see that, and not ascribe bad faith or cowardice to his colleagues .
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
So you’re good with fake accusations as long as they exceed a certain threshold?
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC: Much like the rest of your arguments, the evidence doesn’t support you.
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
Yes, except where was there stonewalling? Since when is “asking for a little more info regarding questionable accusations” considered “stonewalling”? I mean, outside of your oh-so-refined sense of decorum, propriety, and veeblefetzer, that is.
Mike in DC
@TenguPhule:
Are they all fake? Did God tip you off? Are you sure no more are coming, or if they are, that they’re all fake too?
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that you don’t know for sure that every single accuser is lying. And that you/we don’t know whether more are out there. But that we do know what the political cost of this narrative is.
SFAW
@TenguPhule:
Ad hominem! Ad hominem!
Remember: if you call someone’s argument “bullshit,” that’s an ad hominem attack.
(Of course, were Franken from Michigan, it might have been an Ad Eminem attack. )
Aleta
@ruemara: @ruemara: Thanks for the strength of these clear words.
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
So now it’s “at least one of them is real! I think! So suck it, libtard!”
mike in dc
@SFAW: Hey, congrats on the bad faith argumentation, chief.
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
Because Franken announced his resignation. Had he not, there might have been a significant political cost, there might not. But now we won’t know.
Well, strike that: no one outside of YOU will know.
TenguPhule
@Mike in DC:
The cost of this narrative is that Franken was forced out based on a fucking witch hunt.
Yes, at this point I’m certain this was a rat fuck operation. The worst allegation that can be plausibly be made is a bad taste photo. That’s it.
We’ve seen Republicans tough out worse. Why? Because they stick together against anything except the most over the top shit. That’s why they’re kicking our ass and why even if they hate them, voters respect their commitment.
When you have no respect, you have nothing.
debit
@Mike in DC: The real world where squeezing someone’s waist is the same as rape. Right.
SFAW
@mike in dc:
I’m not the one who went from “There are eight or nine accusations OMFG!!!!!” to “You (TenguPhule) don’t know that they all were lying, so suck it.” Or was the “did God tell you” bullshit supposed to be a good-faith argument?
You keep projecting. Let’s see, which political party is known for that? Thinking …
ETA: And speaking of “bad faith argumentation”: your comment at 540 is a primo example of that, twinkles.
mike in dc
@SFAW:
What was pelosi doing on MTP when Chuck Todd was asking her about Conyers? Did you want weeks more of that shit? Because that would be the political cost of insisting on due process here. Due process takes time and has an uncertain outcome, and politics happens in real time and the costs are immediate and attritive. “Sen. Franken has agree to an ethics committee investigation and until that is completed, I am going to refrain from commenting on the matter”–at some point in time, after the nth week and the nth accuser, that line of defense falls.
I wanted an ethics investigation–back when I thought this was either a one-off or that there wouldn’t be too many more accusers. By the time his fellow senators pulled the trigger, though, I was on the fence–because at some point you do have to make a tough call. Standing by him wouldn’t have been an easy call, either.
gene108
555
mike in dc
@SFAW:
How many more accusers would be tolerable for you to continue supporting Franken and the (eventual) ethics investigation with an uncertain timetable and uncertain outcome? Because that’s the call. Is that an easy call? Does the number of accusers and prolongation of the story, happening in the context it’s happening in, affect the difficulty of the call?
Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot
@Mike in DC: I take it you are trying to engage on this topic in a forthright manner, and I’m being (more than) a bit snarky. As much as this topic has divided us here (about as divisive as anything I’ve seen, and I’ve been around BJ since before Mr. Cole had his road to Damascus conversion in ’05) I think almost everyone is on the side of Righteousness; we just disagree pretty vehemently on the meaning and particulars around Franken.
And it’s much bigger than just Franken: it gets at how (even if — it’s a big “if” I’d say) the side of Righteousness (political wing, the Dem Party, God help us) can win against the currently triumphant fascists (i.e., Republicans). I don’t think there’s any way to spin Franken’s resignation over the accusations as anything but a large net negative for our side, whatever miniscule “upsides” there may be.
Do I know 100% that the allegations against Franken aren’t true (in the sense of being some kind of sexual harassment)? Of course not. But they smelled like a rat to me, and seemed more so the further I looked. More like Shirley Sherrod and ACORN than Franken being somehow birds of a feather with, say, Trump or Weinstein.
With the “help” of the Democratic Party leadership (such as it is) culminating in his resignation, though, he is condemned in the public eye now as guilty. Both Sides Do It, doncha know? That’s the main takeaway, and that vaunted Moral High Ground looks exactly as Pierce describes.
SFAW
@mike in dc:
Grow a set, snowflake. “Weeks more of that shit”? There is ALWAYS something for Chuckles Todd to use to bust on the Dems, BFD.
Were you actually a Dem, I’d suggest you watch Bruno Gianelli’s speech from The West Wing, where he says, in effect, “ENOUGH with allowing ourselves to be the Rethugs’ punching bag.”
Your “arguments” have been all over the place, in an attempt to convince us of … what? Who the fuck can tell? That it was dulce et decorum for Franken to resign, and that you’ll shake your head sadly, etc., etc. Which Dem will be your next target? 9No, don’t bother to answer, I actually don’t care.)
TenguPhule
@mike in dc:
How many fake accusations is your limit before calling for their heads?
Because the GOP will always be happy to provide that N+1 you keep harping about.
SFAW
@Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:
Not a good assumption
mike in dc
@debit:
Actually, he’s been accused by three different women of forcibly kissing them, or attempting to. With tongue. Which is a bit more serious.
SFAW
@TenguPhule:
There is no limit, because then he’d cede the moral high ground, and would not be able to “tut tut” or “tsk tsk” or whatever.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Ruckus:
Yes, that’s why we take accusations seriously and investigate, not rely on mob justice.
debit
@mike in dc: And now we’ll never know if these were legitimate accusations or ratfucking because everyone called for him to resign before there could even be an investigation.
TenguPhule
@mike in dc: Two of which have no names. And the third is a FOX Professional Ratfucker.
Funny, that.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mike in DC: That’s the problem, we don’t have a clear position; there’s no process here.
mike in dc
@SFAW:
I explained my position, in good faith, and you were more interested in cherry-picking it to try to punch me in the face, rhetorically speaking. Winning the argument is more important than understanding my point, which is this: the call to ask Franken to resign was a tough one, but an understandable one, based not on cowardice or ruthless self-advancement, but on pragmatic political considerations. You can disagree with the call without imputing malice or flaw to the deciders. Your choice.
TenguPhule
@mike in dc:
Your mistake is thinking that one precludes any of the others. And leaves out stupidity.
Skepticat
@Damned at Random: True dat.
TenguPhule
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
We do have a position: Its bend over and clutch our ankles and grimace for purity. The process of getting ratfucked will naturally proceed from there.
mike in dc
@TenguPhule:
The problem is that you wear your negativity and cynicism on your sleeve. You might be a good Democrat or a good activist, even a good person, but would make a terrible juror.
mike in dc
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
But here’s the nub of the problem: When Sen. Franken called for an ethics investigation, he admitted that he didn’t even know what that entailed. This is a situation where we can’t afford multi-year investigations of matters which should only take a few months. They need to be handled quickly, because the public will demand it. So if we’re going to say “let’s have due process, transparency and accountability”, the problem is that the current system is poorly set up for that(see also the confidential harassment settlements and the arcane process thereto). So my suggestion is, going forward, fix the due process so the public can see what’s happening and trust the outcome. Otherwise we can and will get jammed up like this.
TenguPhule
@mike in dc: You’re trying to make applesauce out of pineapple grenades.
We’re in trouble and things are now on course to get much much worse because our elected Senators tried to kick the football again.
SFAW
@mike in dc:
I understand and understood your point. Unfortunately for you, it was not very-well-thought-out, neither from a theoretical perspective, nor from a political/pragmatic perspective. That you continue to go in circles, and play the “well, how many rapes (so to speak) before you’ll be satisfied that he should resign?” game is an indicator of your how disingenuous your argument was and is. And your response(s) to TenguPhule, when he points out the error(s) in your numbers, is to either start the cycle all over again, or do the “La-la-la-la I can’t hear you!” routine, or veeblefetzer.
But you’ve accomplished your purpose, tovarishch.
TenguPhule
@mike in dc:
What public demand?
debit
@mike in dc: The public will demand it? Which public? His actual constituents? Or the Fox news public? Because I have to say that while we’re slitting our own throats, Roy Moore and Donald Trump are double dog daring anyone to come at them.
mike in dc
@SFAW:
Sigh. From one of the posts you cherry-picked:
For the record:
1. I advocated for patience and due process when this began.
2. 3 weeks passed and the situation worsened politically for Franken and his colleagues.
3. I disagree with the decision to “pull the plug”, but I understand why they made that tough call.
4. The investigative process needs to be reformed precisely so that we can avoid being jammed up like this.
What is your position on allegations against Democrats, in the current environment, not in an idealized vaccuum? When does it become time to fish or cut bait? I’d like an honest answer, not more snark, please.
Miss Bianca
@mike in dc: I think it’s entirely possibly to ascribe bad faith, panic, and stupidity to the Democratic leadership. In equal measure to the bad faith, cynicism, and nihilism of the GOP. And your argument is specious. The public may “demand” instant action- so does a lynch mob that shows up at a jail. Does that mean the sheriff is supposed to say, “now is not the time for nuance” and throw the prisoner to the mob?
For that matter. the “public” of the state of Minnesota might have appreciated the notion that it was *their* decision to fire the guy – not Senator Gillebrand’s.
O. Felix Culpa
@mike in dc:
I agree with your latter suggestion and disagree with the first premise. What public demand? I’m a member of the public and I wanted due process. Now it has been short-circuited with the following negative outcomes:
(1) mob rule has prevailed;
(2) there’s no longer any mechanism to find out if Al Franken actually was guilty of significant misdeeds or if indeed he was ratfucked;
(3) if the latter, there’s no way to reinstate him;
(4) there’s no pathway or incentive to set up due process going forward. The Republicans ain’t going to do it to their own and the Dems have shown neither spine nor loyalty nor respect for said due process.
ETA: If ratfucking was involved (as I strongly suspect), the R’s have every incentive to rinse, repeat with the Dems as we have shown no learning curve in dealing with this shit.
mike in dc
@Miss Bianca:
You may, but I’d rather not. We’re stuck with them, for now. People seem to keep reading additional terms into what I say–the public expects accountability and transparency, and reasonable timeliness. Are these unreasonable expectations? Will an ethics investigation, the way that committee currently operates, actually satisfy those requirements?
31 colleagues joined Sen. Gillibrand. i think it’s unfair to peg her as the ringleader of some craven conspiracy.
TenguPhule
@mike in dc:
The situation only worsened because 32 DEMOCRATIC SENATORS TURNED ON ONE OF THEIR OWN.
And this is why rushing to judgement based on sketchy allegations that lack evidence is bad.
mike in dc
@O. Felix Culpa:
I don’t disagree that this is the downside of the decision. My effort was to try to get people to understand why they did what they did without ascribing all manner of deviltry to their motives.
We should be capable of putting ourselves into other people’s shoes and trying to see things from a different perspective.
mike in dc
@TenguPhule:
No, the situation worsened because 5-6 more accusers emerged, including a former Democratic staffer. And because there was no sign that an ethics inquiry had started or would get started any time soon.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@patroclus:
This is why we have a pie filter.
TenguPhule
@mike in dc:
Corrected for accuracy.
When half the accusers are unknown, a wise person would not count them as credible.
And had Democrats stuck together and POINTED THIS OUT,
Things would be very different now.
Miss Bianca
@mike in dc: Had I lived in France in 1941, I might have wanted to think that my leaders were right about cooperating with the Nazis, too. “Hey, what’s one or two Jews? They probably did the stuff these guys are saying that they did, and in any case, the public DEMANDS that they be made an example of.”
Yeah, no. I have made excuses for the Democratic leadership in this country for years. But there comes a time when you have to start thinking, “wow…maybe they really ARE as craven, cowardly, opportunistic, and tone-deaf as my lefty friends keep trying to tell me.”
mike in dc
@Miss Bianca:
Well, you’re welcome to your perspective. I’m not going to go Oliver Cromwell* on you.
*”I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken”
TriassicSands
@different-church-lady:
1. That’s a tough one, because reputations can be ruined by anonymous accusations. I’m ambivalent.
2. I don’t see how this is unfair. Please note that I’ve said “in the future.” The situation concerning mistreatment of women has got to change and the mistreatment has got to stop. Claims made immediately have more credibility and are more likely to result in a fair outcome. Both men and women need to accept responsibility — I’m not blaming women — for their own roles. Men, if they are guilty of improprieties need to be confronted at a time and in a way that they can fairly defend themselves. Women, after all that has happened, will, I hope, accept the need to present claims when the events happen. Waiting weakens their credibility (at least among some) and makes it much more difficult for the accused to respond satisfactorily.
3. This is the one that has been such an abject failure in at least some of the most recent cases. We know how dishonest the Right is today. They could easily amass a dozen anonymous, false accusations and have someone fired or forced to resign without there ever being a proper hearing. Franken’s case is a little different. There’s no quetsion he behaved imappropriately. The real question is do his past actions really warrant ending his Senate career.
mike in dc
Bowing out. Think we’re all repeating ourselves at this point. Someone wants the last word, fine by me.
O. Felix Culpa
@mike in dc: I agree that empathy is valuable. I also think that the senators exercised poor judgment. This was an opportunity for them to stand up for due process and articulate important differentiations in assessing bad behavior.
For example, there is a major difference between persons in power harassing/abusing persons in lesser positions (e.g. Moore and Weiner with minors, Weinstein and Trump with subordinates) and persons acting stupidly with peers (e.g. Franken with that USO actress). We need better guidelines and our leadership blew the opportunity to help frame them.
I also would have appreciated them articulating trust in the process. Either we believe in due process or we don’t. The Democratic leaders certainly acted as if they don’t believe in it…and where does that leave us?
Miss Bianca
@mike in dc: I’ll thank you to take the butcher of Ireland’s advice yourself, if it speaks to you.
SatanicPanic
Thank you Betty. I am not going to waste time commenting here anymore, but I appreciate you saying this.
SteveKnNKY
this is a local television interview for those that only saw the first accuser’s press conference.
http://local12.com/news/local/maineville-woman-says-senator-al-franken-groped-her-in-2003
eemom
@mike in dc:
Door, ass, etc.
Betty Cracker
@SatanicPanic: I hope by “here” you mean this thread and not the blog altogether.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@mike in dc: Then demands from Dem leadership should be for an expedited process, not mob justice. The thing I’m seeing in your comments is that you think this is a one-off, it isn’t. The Republicans know that this will work now, they WILL do it again.
SFAW
@Mike in DC:
Even were that true, which is questionable, it has nothing to do with Franken getting railroaded.
Cause and effect — how does that shit work?
SFAW
@mike in dc:
Depends on the allegations, depends on what the investigation(s) produce(s). Sorry if that’s not “We-don’t-have-an-answer-after-15-days,-so off-with-his-head!”-enough for you.
RedDirtGirl
I won’t be that surprised if it turns out that Al Franken is “hands-y”. The sad truth is that men violate the personal space and bodily integrity of women all the time. It’s on a continuum. At one end it’s merely someone being overly familiar, standing to close. At the other end is sexual assault and femicide.
An ethics investigation would have been an opportunity to address this.
Also, too, remember Shirley Sherrod?
Tehanu
@mike in dc:
I don’t impute malice; I impute spinelessness and stupidity and failure to live up to their own principles. Yes, those are flaws. I’ve been a yellow-dog Democrat since I was 4 years old and my father explained to me that we didn’t “like Ike” because the Republicans were for the rich people, and I don’t plan to change my registration or my attitude — but the reality you keep blathering on about is that the voters don’t care how “pure” we are; they care that Democrats out of power don’t stand up for what’s right and don’t defend their own, so why should they believe that Democrats in power would stand up for what’s right and defend America?
@Miss Bianca:
SgrAstar
@mike in dc: I’ve read this entire thread, and all of your comments…and I’m still not getting how you think we gain from this. Voters have shown repeatedly that they do not care about the “ moral high ground.” We had a terrifically effective senator who was capable of publicly flaying republicans to the bone. We gave that up so, so easily- apparently in order to seize that mythical high ground. And our enemies have ceded fuck-all. Farenthold, Trump, and co…they’re all still there. I think this was an own goal with potentially disastrous consequences. SAD.