This Luntz/Vice focus group on Roy Moore has it all pic.twitter.com/y9iRx2oeQ2
— Liam Donovan (@LPDonovan) December 9, 2017
On the one hand, Deplorables gonna be deplorable. On the other hand, Frank Luntz — having made a very prosperous living out of encouraging the worst Repubs to act out their worst fantasies — always gives the customer what they want. And I suspect he thinks Vice, not to mention his next client(s), wanted a slope-browed troupe eager to virtue-signal the world and each other about their depraved misogyny / racism “Christianity”. Either way, not an optimistic view of American politics at the moment!
40 years ago was 19-FUCKING-77. It was not the fucking shoeless Dust Bowl past! STAR WARS was out! We’d been to the Moon! We had VCR’s and cable TV! What the actual FUCK with this argument? https://t.co/5Kk7sTFNqb
— John Rogers (@jonrog1) December 9, 2017
It's like we're in some sort of political purgatory, doomed to mumble the rationalizations of 2016 for eternity. pic.twitter.com/mlVkSN0PMR
— Liam Donovan (@LPDonovan) December 9, 2017
You can almost see Frank Luntz looking back at the last 25 years of his life and thinking "My God, what have I done." https://t.co/PHRxLt7KJV
— Gary Legum (@GaryLegum) December 9, 2017
There is no way to reach these folks and no reason to try.
Reach their kids https://t.co/lleXCwcGKt— Charles P. Pierce (@CharlesPPierce) December 9, 2017
Ruckus
Bull and fucking shit.
Frank Luntz and his ilk have played human emotions for all they are worth, which at this point is about a small pile of dog shit.
These guys aren’t stupid, they are however as evil as possible without bursting into flames. They did all of this for power, for money and for honor among thieves. They care about nothing else. They are scum of the earth and should be shot into the sun with drumpf and all his friends. At least it’s possible to have nice things, their taste is in their asses and they are willing to pay for crap because they haven’t a clue as to what nice things are, only expensive things. Maybe we should make crap and sell it for a ton of money per pound. The wealthy would be standing in line waiting to order more.
gene108
Bought a ticket for Star Wars: The Last Jedi for a Thursday showing. I couldn’t wait.
I was surprised there were still seats available, though most of them were right next to the screen.
I found a decent seat, not next to the screen for a 10:30 pm show.
Now I have to make sure I don’t fall asleep before the movie starts.
I used to go to midnight shows all the time in college. Hell, I remember when I used to just get out to have a night in the town starting 10 pm.
This is when I realize I am no longer 25.
PeakVT
I was thinking about watching that but I decided that life is short and feeling nauseous for hours isn’t fun.
Yoda Dog
@gene108: I fell asleep in the midnight showing of Rogue One. It was a fantastic movie, but I had a few drinks with some friends beforehand and… well, I’m not 25 anymore either.
I was so embarrassed. Nobody said anything to me about it so I’m fairly sure I wasn’t snoring in the theater at least.
efgoldman
Words of wisdom from Professor Pierce
Tom
@Ruckus: Agreed. Frank Luntz gave himself over to the services of evil long ago, and has been their devoted servant ever since. They’ll be coming to collect soon enough.
Ruckus
@Yoda Dog:
I’ve fallen asleep in a business meeting before. The laughing from me snoring woke me up. In my defense it was one fucking boring meeting.
Ruckus
@Tom:
Yes they will come but if they had came to collect soon enough he be gone now.
MomSense
@efgoldman:
If only he had finished his tweet with fuck em, then it would have been perfect.
Good to see you here. Hope you are feeling better.
geg6
Holy fuck, I lost IQ points watching that. And as much as I despise him, yes, you could see Luntz questioning his life choices there, more so as the video goes on. I hope he hates himself, though I doubt he lets him bother him for long. Meanwhile, did I see somewhere that a former Breitbartian, Kurt somebody, announced he has become a full-fledged Democrat? Or did I hallucinate that?
Major Major Major Major
@geg6:
I realized I would have to get my headphones uncoiled from my pocket to watch it, and that moment of hesitation made me realize that I didn’t want to. Sounds like I made the right decision.
geg6
@Major Major Major Major:
It’s fascinating in a horrifying way. Some of them know how awful they sound and just let their freak flag fly anyway. Luntz’s reactions would be hilarious if the whole thing wasn’t such a train wreck.
MisterForkbeard
This whole thing had me extremely angry last night – the whole fact that a good third of the country was tribalistic and angry enough to vote in a child molester (okay, “pebophile”) and to rationalize it by attacking the women and Democrats was enough to really screw up my day. And that the National Republican party was supporting him made me realize there’s just NO worth to that group anymore. Or rather, it emphasized it. They’re not even pretending to be decent, moral people any more.
I’m a pretty non-confrontational person, but even so I was thinking about cutting off contact between my in-laws and my kids if they start making approving noises about Republicans, Trump and Moore. It kept me up until 4am – I just couldn’t figure out whether I wanted my kids to be exposed at all to that kind of sexism.
I’m feeling much better about it all today – these folks are what we’ve always known them to be. And I’m not cutting Republicans out of my life, but they are getting a giant fucking earful if they promote any of this crap in front of my kids. It’s important that they learn not to accommodate evil, but they SHOULD be able to tolerate opposing points of view.
MisterForkbeard
@Major Major Major Major: This is why I basically don’t watch Trump speak. Ever. Even for jokes and memes.
Millard Filmore
She is 14 … let’s face it. Any male past high school has dropped into the Creepy Old Guy category.
Major Major Major Major
@MisterForkbeard: I 100% do this too.
@geg6: I find that if I just assume the worst about Trump and his supporters, I can skip watching videos of them and not miss anything.
Patricia Kayden
@PeakVT: Me too. That screenshot and write up is more than sufficient for me. If Moore wins, I don’t want to ever again read about Republicans as the arbiters of moral values. They can miss me with their Christianist b.s.
gene108
@Yoda Dog:
I have never fallen asleep in a movie theater. I guess I have that going for me.
Job Interviewer: Tell me something you are proud of in your life?
Me: I have never fallen asleep, while seeing a movie in a theater. And I haven’t murdered anybody. That’s two things I am proud of. Do I get the job?
geg6
@MisterForkbeard:
Yeah, I cannot watch or listen to him. It so enrages and upsets me that I’m afraid I’ll stroke out. I can’t even read the transcripts of his speeches half the time for the same reason. I hate him more than I have anything or anyone ever.
ArchTeryx
@geg6: Yeah, that’s such nuclear-grade stupid it glows in the dark. As I wish these people did, so you could tell ’em easier.
sharl
Regarding the AL Senate campaign, Joy-Ann Reid had an article in The Daily Beast which seeks to head off those ready to blame black Alabamans in the event of a Doug Jones loss: Don’t Blame Black Voters If Doug Jones Loses to Roy Moore:
The Alabama Senate race is a referendum on Alabama, not on black Alabamans.
This was probably a necessary thing to write. At 25%, the black population in Alabama is a greater percentage than it is nationally (12.6% per the 2010 U.S. Census, per Wikipedia), but nowhere near 50%. I’m sure that’s true even after adjusting for voter eligibility considerations, and since voter suppression exists in Alabama as well as so many other places, any necessary adjustment from that 25% number would likely be downward.
~
At this point there is likely little in the way of new information for the already politically aware, but the thread that follows this first tweet will serve as a reminder why white women voters – especially older white women – should probably not be looked to for good news (though IMO if there are pleasant surprises, one might come from this direction):
~
Aaaaand, to wrap my contribution to this “depressing open thread”, Gloria Allred has not helped the effort to get Doug Jones elected. Not that it’s her job to do so, though I don’t see how she helped her legal advocacy here (or her reputation as an effective lawyer): Roy Moore accuser alters part of her account about inscription
For white folks looking for any rationalization to vote for a child sex perv, this may be just enough for them. Moore’s campaign and media allies certainly seem to think it is helpful. Hopefully it won’t help enough.
Happy happy happy! ??
Bill Arnold
@Millard Filmore:
The general rule is half one’s age plus seven. There are outlier circumstances of course.
Brachiator
@gene108:
The movie will be playing on so many screens and with so many show times that there should be no problem with people getting seats.
I don’t understand the hoopla.
Of course, I am taking Friday off, and seeing it at a reasonable time, like the mature adult that I am. ;)
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I’ll toss this out here now, from the thread down under.
If we lived in a decent country where young women were taught from puberty that physical intimacy with appropriate peers to whom one is attracted is appropriate, normal and healthy, young adult women of age would be equipped to address an unwelcome advance, and the person serving up the advance would be able to handle it.
Consider the following exchange in utopian America:
Instead, we dance up to everything, and too many never internalized the social tools to a) make a good attraction approach or b) reject, as an ostensibly competent adult, a bad or unwanted approach. So what we get is a bunch of clumsy assholes who leverage power and money on targets who are too mentally weak to split from the room or to say “no, I’m not attracted to you”. We’re handling this like a bunch of college sophomores in an overwrought po mo lit crit class.
I find myself wondering what kind of sexual harassment rates occur in the more sexually open cultures of Northern and Western Europe.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bill Arnold: For me, that is 33 and a half.
Anne Laurie
@gene108:
Realize the wisdom of your elders (/snark), take a nap after work / before the movie.
efgoldman
@MisterForkbeard:
In practical; political terms, having the pediophile Moore in the senate ups the kkkrazy kkkqotient, but it doesn’t change a single vote
Quinerly
Spent a little time in Alabama, have had relatives who were from there (4 of my paternal grandfather’s 5 wives were from there…first wife and last wife were sisters, first had died in childbirth with twins AND 3 of my paternal grandmother’s 4 husbands were from there,….out of all that, my father was an only child born in 1922 and reared by his paternal, pious grandmother in NC, but I digress?)….all in all I was expecting worse from the group. You gotta love the chick talking about church, religion and being 16 years old dating a 31 year old man. I truly was expecting more of a freak show. I was robbed! What kind of blog are you guys running here? This could have been a focus group in Georgia.? There’s no place in the country like Alabama.
Mike in NC
We don’t need just term limits, we need age limits. In our last town council election there were four white (obviously) Republican women aged 75 to 79. How about more diversity in the racist Senior Citizen demographic in local elections?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@gene108:
All the local theaters have the recliners where you can stretch out completely. Wife always nods off.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike in NC: At what age should we put legislators on the ice floes? Pelosi, Cummings, Lewis? Fuckem?
jay
So what’s Gillibrand think of Ted Kennedy, since she drug Bill back into this? Do we hate Ted Kennedy now? Still the Lion of the Senate? Should we now spin the old rightwing lines about Chappaquiddick? Serious question. Ted Kennedy–good guy who dealt with some issues or sexist alcoholic monster??? And I guess we should treat those rape accusations about Julian Assange seriously, finally. So many lefties joined that asshole’s cult of personality, no questions, no criticism, just swallowed whatever he served up. How many liberal Americans REFUSED to acknowledge the allegations against Assange, to even consider them, just flat out denial/he was set up? Way to prop up a front for Russian intelligence.
aimai
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: What the fuck? Are you fucking nuts? Do you seriously think that sexual harassment arises when men simply ask for sex and women are too prudish to reject their advances? Did you not read any of this shit from Woody Allen to Weinstein to every single one of these assholes (except franken)? This is not a story of propositions taken the wrong way.
Quinerly
@Quinerly:
And, I’ll add this. My educated guess is that almost all in that group believe or know that the allegations against Moore are true. THEY JUST DON’T CARE. Blacks vote Dem. Those people in that group will never, ever vote for a Democrat. NEVER. It’s BLACK and WHITE.
VeniceRiley
@Ruckus: Well, I thought this post by the ever lovely Anne was lacking, given the subject, a Betty Cracker level of swearing. So thanks for providing.
Brachiator
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
And again,
The link
http://m.dw.com/en/what-do-europeans-consider-sexual-harassment/a-41346892
jay
For the record, I personally like Ted Kennedy. I think he’s like many people–we have the capacity for both dark and light within us.
Omnes Omnibus
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I will refer you to my comments below.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
“I’m blaming both of them”
sweet jesus
I didn’t quite make three minutes
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@aimai:
Woody Allen groomed someone from childhood. Weinstein may well have been guilty of forcible rape, and will be charged criminally.
They’re different from the politics of the casting couch, and vastly different from the complaints on Franken and Keillor.
How far are we willing to go to infantilize adult women?
efgoldman
@Omnes Omnibus:
Hatch, Grassley, McTortoise…..
Villago Delenda Est
@Quinerly:
I lol’d when I read this.
B.B.A.
@jay: Has Gillibrand ever had anything nice to say about Assange?
Brachiator
@sharl:
There was an opinion piece on The Root blasting the Democrats and the Jones campaign for alienating black voters and taking them for granted.
This recent news story highlights how stunningly conventional, and stupid, the approach to voters has been.
This shit should not be that difficult.
The link
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/jones-needs-black-voters-beat-moore-alabama-try-telling-them-n827846
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: Exactly. It is individuals. Paul Ryan is as horrible as can be, but an age restriction would leave him in place.
Feathers
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Well, the original Swedish title of “The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo” was “Men Who Hate Women.” According to the first article when you search for “sexual harassment Scandinavia” Sweden and Denmark have Europe’s highest rates of reported sexual harassment, although they do note that this may be because women are more likely to report it. Which may be because women are less stigmatized for being sexually active (or sexual at all).
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Brachiator:
To paraphrase as I remarked below – it appears that there is no place in earth, then, where sexual harassment as defined by Andrea Dworkin or Catherine MacKinnon is largely absent. No place where a graduate student po mo litcrit instructor can spew gender theories at eager sophomores and know that they are prepared to take on the world.
Chet Murthy
@aimai:
QFT.
Quinerly
More on Moore not doing any campaigning. Will poke his degenerate head out Monday to campaign with Bannon and Gohmert:http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/politics/southunionstreet/2017/12/09/days-before-election-roy-moore-disappears-campaign-trail/937881001/
Brachiator
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
My modest proposal. Make it illegal for anyone other than a law enforcement officer, a soldier, or a woman, to own a gun.
And write stand your ground laws to include sexual harassment.
Omnes Omnibus
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Who is talking about sexual harassment as defined by MacKinnon and Dworkin? Jesus fuck.
Chet Murthy
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Perhaps you might wish to peruse the (French) tweets of Balance Ton Porc (translation: “Expose your pig”). There’s pigs everywhere, and it’s got nothing to do with prudish culture. It’s got to do with women’s lack of real-world power, and men’s willingness to back each other up, no matter how vile the offender is.
Citizen_X
Sure, but did he at least collapse on the plunger and blow up the bridge?
schrodingers_cat
@aimai: I concur.
Brachiator
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Stop making shit up. No one is using Dworkin as a standard.
Quinerly
@Villago Delenda Est: Let’s keep this between us. I’d hate for anyone to tattle to raven or Steve.?
Chet Murthy
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: How far are we willing to go, to infantilize Terry Crews?
FFS FFS
Citizen_X
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, I’m pretty sure 80% of Swedish women and 75% of French women are not using Andrea Dworkin’s definitions.
schrodingers_cat
I have no idea who Dworkin and the other person is, never heard of them but Comte’s definition of sexual assault/harassment is most peculiar.
Peale
@schrodingers_cat: oh dear. You did not go to liberal arts college, did you?
Yutsano
@Brachiator: Jesu Christe. Up until I read that I hadn’t even heard about Dworkin for, well, anything.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat: That is because you have never studied law and never read the Crits. Dworkin (a radical lesbian) and MacKinnon (a straight married woman) argued that most law is oppressive to women (possibly true) but also took it much farther.
schrodingers_cat
@Peale: Nope.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Brachiator:
Hell, I’d sign onto that one.
Quinerly
Laura Ingraham thinks this #METOO stuff is killing Christmas. All this talk about rape makes alcohol at office Christmas parties less fun. I guess there has been no truce in that War on Christmas and a new front has opened up (and normally I don’t share these “shareblue” posts….but it is the Loathsome Laura I. …how on earth did Keith Olbermann ever date her for even a second?….that voice) https://shareblue.com/watch-fox-complains-women-reporting-rape-will-make-christmas-parties-less-festive/
catclub
@Omnes Omnibus: so, a 16 y.o and 17 y.o?
I still remember the wise man in Love and Death asked what provides true happiness. Of course, Woody Allen is not the best role model here.
But who is, anyway?
Omnes Omnibus
@Quinerly: I will admit to sleeping with people I later found appalling.
efgoldman
@Omnes Omnibus:
I haven’t. I heard about them sometime in the 70s in one of Boston’s alternative weeklies.
Omnes Omnibus
@catclub: Huh?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Omnes Omnibus:
MacKinnon once posited in some law journal that gay male sex was inherently antifeminist because it takes place in an environment where women are denied the opportunity to approve of it taking place, and was therefore bad.
It stands out in my mind as one of the most uniquely stupid articles I ever read.
B.B.A.
@Omnes Omnibus: Personally I’m more fond of Valerie Solanas. If you must go rad-fem, go all the way!
zhena gogolia
@geg6:
Same here. I can sometimes watch Sassy Trump, but it’s gotten less funny as time has gone by.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: The Crits of various types started from a valid viewpoint of seeing the law as tilted against everyone but white men. Some, like Dworkin and MacKinnon, took it to the point of absurdity.
Omnes Omnibus
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: And MacKinnon is more hinged than Dworkin. But still, no one was argue for their views tonight.
ThresherK
@efgoldman: While having pie and cream-top milk from Wright’s Dairy Farm on Thanksgiving, visiting friends in Blackstone, a silent toast was made to your well-being.
Glad to see you here.
Gozer
@Brachiator: I should note that when in congress Arthur Davis was the only member of the CBC to vote against the PPACA and the Matthew Shepard/James Byrd Act, ran to the right in the AL gov race, and became a Republican in 2012 (even speaking at the RNC the same year.
I don’t think he has the best interests of the Democratic Party in mind regardless of his current affiliation (which I assume to be Dem).
Duane
@Ruckus: That sums it up nicely. Said what I thought, and then some. Thanks.
Anotherlurker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I made it to the afirmation that Moore is “A good christian man” (supply appropriate accent and emphasis).
I just want to live out my life, in peace. That is becoming more and more difficult in this benighted nation. I’m thinking ex-pat, very seriously.
With that, back to “Rick n’ Morty” for some much needed laughs.
smintheus
VHS player was first introduced in the US only in 1977, so it’s misleading to say we had VCRs 40 years ago.
What we had in 1977 was the feeling that we’d finally rid ourselves of the corruption, nihilism, and incompetence of the most shameless Republicans ever to take power. Somehow since then we’ve lost that feeling; we should try to get it back.
Brachiator
@Gozer:
Thanks for the background information.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
? Dworkin ended up walking back her own book.
Per Wiki:
Omnes Omnibus
@B.B.A.: Right…. Trying to kill Andy Warhol is a feminist action how? I find your premises from men are evil to the absurdities of this night to be, let’s say, outliers.
Duane
@Major Major Major Major: I never wanted to see Luntz, I never want to see him again.
Brachiator
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I guess this would also make male masturbation inherently antifeminist.
sharl
@Brachiator: Thanks, that NBC link seemed to largely be in concurrence with Joy-Ann Reid’s Daily Beast piece.
When you said “This shit should not be that difficult,” was that criticism of Doug Jones’ campaign (for not doing sufficient outreach to AA communities), or Artur Davis for saying that achieving balance in reaching out to both black and white communities simultaneously is difficult? Because I can imagine both being true, though some elaboration of Davis’ statement would be required for myself and most of us outsiders to Alabama politics. I’m guessing it might involve making promises sufficiently specific to satisfy certain socioeconomic factions among black folks, which in turn might enrage and motivate certain white folks to come out in greater numbers to vote for Moore.*
*For example, in looking at the “Black belt” on the map at the NBC link, I’m thinking the agriculture sector might be a potentially contentious area, due in part to lingering bad feelings from before [blacks] and after [whites] the USDA Pigford settlement.
ETA: I’m glad Gozer added additional information about Artur Davis, an interesting Alabama pol (to say the least). His partisan flip-flopping wasn’t relevant to my point, but does go to any questions about his reliability as someone weighing in on state-wide politics.
PIGL
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: That’s the sort of argument that comes up when broad movements for social change, like 2nd wave feminism, are looking for organizing principles. Often, they become dated rapidly; but 40 years ago, under the circumstances, it wasn’t quite as daft as it sound now.
The sort argument we’re seeing recently, that it’s better for a million women to be assaulted and harassed without recourse than for one man to be falsely accused, was well-known at the time. This made some people a little testy and impatient, as it is again today.
In retrospect, and changing the subject, I am beginning to think that Andrea Dworkin was on the right track about pornography.
B.B.A.
@Omnes Omnibus: This hasn’t been a good year for me.
For anyone, really.
Brachiator
@PIGL:
I vaguely recall that some weird interpretation of legal principle with a faux feminist leaning led Canada to prohibit some p0rn made by women for women.
Anne Laurie
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m so old, I remember when Dworkin & MacKinnon were The New Philosophical Topic. Dworkin was an abuse survivor; MacKinnon was a legal theorist looking for a cause in which to make her name. Even back then, I thought at least 80% of the media attention they drew came from a combination of novelty-seeking (look! hairy-legged radfems!) and confirmation bias (all feminists are just neurotic women terrified of sex in any form). They didn’t represent “all women” any more than Mike Tyson or Louis Farrakhan represent “all Black people” — but it was useful to sell them that way.
Quinerly
@Omnes Omnibus: And Laura I. was once engaged to Dinesh D’Souza. I still think KO should have seen some warning signs.?
Gozer
@Brachiator: Dude’s a snake. He jumped on the “Obama is the real racially divisive one” bandwagon and started writing for National Review at about the same time.
Now I guess he’s trying to salvage his image.
As efg would say, “fuckem’”.
NotMax
@smintheus
Probably using the term VHS as a catch-all for home videotape recorders. Betamax recorders appeared on U.S. shelves in time for 1975 Xmas shopping.
Brachiator
@sharl:
Both. It’s absurd for Democrats to recognize the importance of the black vote and be so inept at rallying them. And again, I understand how the South is strange, but I reject the idea that black and white interests are so divergent that it is so hard to come up with an effective campaign against someone like Moore.
The various articles hint at a lack of involvement of non-whites in party leadership. This could be part of the problem.
Chet Murthy
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Your rhetorical aim here is ….what? To convince your readers that feminism can be taken too far, and by giving examples, argue that it -is- being taken too far? Let’s remember that we’re discussing this in a time when HALF THE FFS COUNTRY thinks a rapist is a FINE FINE choice for president. When Missouri R(apist)s put up Todd “legitimate rape” Akin for -Senate-. The US Senate.
Dworkin, Brownmiller, et al, are NOWHERE near as close to the norm for feminists, as Akin et al are, for the R(apist) Party
Really, man, get your priorities straight.
Oh, and lemme say one more thing: NONE of these men who’re being accused of being rapists/sexual assaulters/harassers, has been deprived of life, liberty, or even their possessions, by any court of law. NONE of them. To the extent they’ve suffered bad consequences, it’s been from their peers (gosh, that never happened to a woman before) or their business counterparties. And y’know, they all have recourse to the courts, to demand redress.
Each and every one of these men has and is getting due process. There is no f**king witch hunt.
B.B.A.
@sylvania: I’ve been the most stridently anti-Franken voice here and I’ve been anti-Moore since the first time he tried to make his brand of Christianity the state religion. But as an elitist New York Jew, there’s nothing I can do about Moore.
Also, MN has a Democratic governor so at worst, no seats change hands.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Brachiator:
I’m thinking that she may have even thrown a few paragraphs in there about that, too.
Ruckus
@VeniceRiley:
That didn’t rise to a Betty Cracker level of swearing. And was far below my normal level. I can ratchet it up if you desire. A little or a lot, your choice. I’ve had lots of decades of learning. And most that learning happened in the first two decades so I may have forgotten a few.
Chet Murthy
@PIGL:
There's nothing wrong with women that a little labiaplasty can't fix[ok, I threw up in my mouth a little just writing that.]
Omnes Omnibus
@B.B.A.: Nor for me. Trump is president. I still call out your statements that all men are evil. I am a liberal and I believe that we can get better. If you don’t believe that, as you have indicated below, you aren’t really my ally.
Lurking Canadian
@Brachiator: I distinctly remember an article in a college newspaper from the early 90s (I don’t remember which university) in which the author equated masturbation and rape. The argument was that the masturbator is presumably fantasizing about a woman who has not consented to be involved in the activity, so…
Radicals gonna radical, is the thing
Omnes Omnibus
@PIGL: Then you are a dipshit.
Eric S.
@gene108: I am going Thursday a well. Buddy at work got tickets and invited me.
efgoldman
@Ruckus:
Showoff!
Quinerly
Whatever happened to those nice music open threads? Are we being punished? No Lily pics lately either. What kind of operation is Cole running here? Some of us might need a break. Some humor……a bit of joy……
Viva BrisVegas
@Quinerly:
That should have been the basis for Luntz’s last question:
“If there was iron clad proof that Moore’s accusers were telling the truth, would you care?”.
Aimai
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: no one is infantilizing grown women. You are trivializing assault and sexual harrassment and the creation of a hostile workplace and public spaces. Im not talking about franken and keilor. Im not raking up ridiculous old scores you have with andrea dwirkin. But your continued insistence that women are responsible for fending off all assaults—halperins? Tail hook? Locked office?because otherwise prudes win is bizarre. Ive lost all respect for you.
PIGL
@Omnes Omnibus: Not a dipshit. Nor yet a flaming asshole. Get my fucking drift?
sharl
@Brachiator: The line “don’t send an advocate for baby-killing to represent Alabama in the Senate” and its variants represent a very effective message in a state like that. That of course is a result of decades of indoctrination at the grass roots level – church/pastor networking certainly helped immensely, along with racism – and acquisition of media power by the right. Richard Viguerie is a goddamn evil genius for recognizing this in the years following the end of the Vietnam War.
Barring some major cataclysm – which sometimes seems increasingly likely these days – it will take significant interest and follow-through effort to change the political dynamics in Alabama and so many other regions of the country.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@sharl: was it Nixon who said, in 1973 Pat Robertson couldn’t spell abortion?
Ruckus
@efgoldman:
Hey old man you may be older than me but not by very much. (And I am officially older than dirt! Wasn’t sure I’d ever get here)
I’d bet you can probably match me word for word in a swear off.
BTW how’s recovery going, if you don’t mind me asking. I hope well, even if slow.
Omnes Omnibus
@Quinerly: I agree. But those with the keys seem to think that acrimonious threads are better. We could take one over if we chose. I have tried before, and it hasn’t worked.
Duane
@efgoldman: Ruckus is so old, and still not as old as you!
B.B.A.
@Viva BrisVegas: It is my grand unifying theory that nobody actually cares about any political scandal, except as a bludgeon against your adversaries. See, e.g., Benghazi, Solyndra, the email server, etc.
I freely admit, the pedophilia scandal has not changed my opinion of Roy Moore at all. I thought he was a terrifyingly dangerous lunatic before, and I think he’s a terrifyingly dangerous lunatic now.
Duane
@Quinerly: Efg jokes are always funny. He’s a good sport. I think.
Omnes Omnibus
@PIGL: I don’t give credence to Dworkin.
efgoldman
@Ruckus:
As you know, being sick and getting well is hard, time consuming work. Between four dialysis sessions a day, controlling my glucose, visiting nurses, visiting PT and OT…
So my blogging time is limited.
NotMax
@>Omnes Omnibus
Yes and yes again. No light at all between us on that.
Quinerly
@Omnes Omnibus: Been around here since right after Cole’s conversion….mostly lurking… then some music threads on the weekend, late night brought me out to comment. Fast forward to the Bernie Hillary Wars and for someone who had to argue for a living, the comment section here was just a downer after a day in court and at the office. I’m close to going back to the rule of “don’t ever read the comments.” I think something is being lost here. With that said, does this have anything to do with Baud! just abandoning us? Asking for Poco. He has concerns……
Ruckus
@B.B.A.:
Those weren’t political scandals. They were bullshit scandals. Completely fabricated bullshit does not make a scandal. Al Franklen is not a scandal. Roy Moore is a scandal. And not because of who is saying anything, but because of what transpired. The republicans have been running on bullshit since the 70s. They haven’t run an honest campaign for president since the very late 40s. Not once. We’ve had some less than stellar campaigns in the last 70 yrs but they’ve had one decent one. Ike. That’s the sum total of their honest and honorable campaigns and candidates in the last 70 yrs. That’s a fucking scandal.
Omnes Omnibus
@Quinerly: ?
amygdala
@efgoldman: It’s too bad you can’t bill Medicare for all the units of care you’re doing. Kidding (sort of). I hope you know how much you’ve been missed. And I hope you get some face time with your granddaughter soon.
Mike J
@Quinerly: xmas music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCajbryflIE
Ruckus
@efgoldman:
That sounds like work. A lot of hard slogging work. I hope it works well and you come out the other end knowing how to swear. At least a little. And don’t worry about the blogging, we got your back. You just get better.
And on the health note, just for the record, I go in for an angiogram in 2 weeks. My xmas present. Getting old is not for the woozy or those afraid of needles.
Quinerly
@Omnes Omnibus: I thought I was pretty clear…Trying to mix a little humor since Baud! is on vacation (does he not comment on the night threads?…we all are very lively and a bit frivolous at 5:00AM every morning) and the rollicking Baud/Poco2020 campaign. Maybe that’s it…this time of night on a weekend I’m usually up the street at a Blues club. Not reading BJ comments.?
Omnes Omnibus
@Quinerly: Um, okay then. Have fun.
NotMax
@Quinerly
As he’s in South America, let’s Blame It on the Bossa Nova.
;)
amygdala
Woo… ~800 cookies baked and safely bagged, which puts holidaycookiepalooza2017 almost in the rear view mirror.
My apartment smells wonderful and is warm and cozy from the oven having been on much of the day. Too bad the last thing I feel like eating right now is a cookie.
Quinerly
@Mike J: Thanks! Lovely voice. Nice little interlude. Much appreciated. Have a great rest of the weekend.
Omnes Omnibus
@sylvania: Do you really think we care about you?
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Quinerly:
Nope. The beatings here will continue until morale improves.
Quinerly
@NotMax: Odd…one of my ex boyfriends just left for South America. Did Baud! say how long he will be gone? Asking for his abandoned running mate…..
GregB
Hey EF. Nice to see you back.
Also, Frank Luntz is a putz.
Quinerly
@Omnes Omnibus: Thanks…it’s all clear. I like my BJ in the morning. Enough said.?
frosty
@Quinerly:
Not even Mississippi?
Disclaimer: My maternal grandmother was born and raised there.
NotMax
@Quinerly
While he may have done, I dunno.
Surely you’re not suggesting Poco is out of the loop?
;)
Quinerly
Ok, switching over to that evil NPR…”American Routes” is showcasing Trombone Shorty. Fun fact…I saw him as a child on stage at NOLA’s Jazz and Heritage Fest. We all still need to find something to smile about….some joy.
Brachiator
@Lurking Canadian:
The subsequent invention of the Internets would drive someone who still believes this stark raving mad.
However, a near variation of this may be related to something I saw by some “thinker” saying that men should be prohibited from buying female sexbots if they become a future commodity because …reasons.
And yet, oddly enough, there is not a lot of concern about possible thought crimes committed by women who use vibrators.
Anyhow, this is all a bit of a detour from more sober issues.
Luthe
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: To repeat my answer from downstairs: I think you’re focusing on the wrong gender here. Women not knowing how to reject someone is not the issue. Men not knowing how to take rejection is the issue.
Women live in a world of wolves. Wolves who look like dogs. You never know when you could be bitten for pissing off one of the wolves. Most of the time we are interacting with dogs and are perfectly safe. But there is no way to tell that. So we have to act as if each and every encounter is with a wolf. This means rejecting someone is fraught with danger. Am I dealing with a dog who will go away when I reject them or am I dealing with a wolf who will bite me? This is why women have to hedge their answers and hope the other party can take a hint. Because we don’t want to get bitten.
What we need is to teach every young boy to respect the boundaries of others and to accept rejection with grace. Men and boys thinking they are entitled to a woman’s attention is what creates wolves. If women knew their straight out “no” would be accepted, they would say it more often. But until that happens, every dog out there is potentially a wolf.
Quinerly
@NotMax: Poco be loopless. Baud! didn’t even email him with any instructions/directions for the campaign while Baud! be gallivanting. SAD!
FlipYrWhig
This “Jones wicked sucks because he isn’t talking to the black community properly” thing seems like a lot of the OMG NORTHAM IS HELLA BLOWING IT opinioneering from October.
Cacti
These are the people that Wilmer and Elizabeth Warren think can be reached.
Good luck with that.
danielx
This from the man who originally solved the equation that keeps producing the answer 27% no matter what inputs are used.
I agree 27% is a little low. I’d go with 30% myself, but I live in a Republican area where some people think HRC is the devil. I may be biased.
Ruckus
@Luthe:
I can easily accept that as an issue.
More than that though is that some men have no idea that rejection is an option. They want what they want and will take it whenever they get the notion. That woman gets even more scared because it only gets worse if they fight back. Of course they might be like the dashcam video from Russia that I saw a month or so ago. Young woman walking across the street, guy crossing the other way, makes some remark, she makes an attempt to walk away and he grabs at her. She leans back a bit and throws a round house kick that knocks him out. She calmly walks off like nothing happened and he’s out cold in the street. Could have been the same woman that I saw a video of who opened the trunk of her car, pulled out 2 arm fulls of bags and now has to figure out how to close the trunk. She leans back slightly, swings her leg up to the trunk lid and closes it with her foot. Not a mark on the car and not a thing out of place in her arms. Her foot was over her head. Great balance and strength.
Cacti
@danielx:
It’s 45% – 46%. That was Donald Trump’s share of the popular vote. It was also John McCain’s share of the vote in a year where the Dems had their most charismatic candidate in a half century, and the Republican incumbent was unpopular to the point of radioactivity.
No matter how completely heinous a candidate the GOP puts up for POTUS, they can count on a floor of 45% – 46% nationally.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@FlipYrWhig: The “What if Moore was black” ad was spectacularly tone deaf, but is of no consequence in the end. The AfAm community in Alabama knows what the fight is about, and who the enemy is.
sharl
From the land of online media…
Dave Weigel is getting dragged for what would normally be a minor fuck-up: he tweeted out a photo of the Pensacola venue where Twitler had his rally, showing a bunch of empty seats, and either stating outright or implying that the rally wasn’t a filled house. It turns out that the photo was taken before the rally started, while people were still filing in (I have no idea whether it was ultimately a sold out event, fwiw).
So Twitler quote-retweeted Weigel noting the fuck-up, and I think demanded his firing, whereupon Weigel did the professional thing, apologized and deleted the tweet. But (of course) despite that, the flying monkey maga chuds and other online wingnuts were now activated, so Weigel’s twitter mentions are now like something from a George Romero movie. (Well, there were no flying monkeys in Romero’s films that I recall, but I think you know what I mean).
Twitter – via its automated algorithm I assume – sent Weigel a notice that the high activity in his account was noted, and asked if he wanted to employ filtering. Trooper that he is, Weigel said “Hell naw,” in the spirit of the grand old man of Weird Twitter, @dril:
I expect/hope that WaPo management is made of tougher stuff than the brass at MSNBC, but we’ll see…
mike in dc
@Cacti: I’d happily accept a 55-45 win in 2020. It’d still be a big enough win to get the point across to the GOP.
B.B.A.
@danielx: I said before the election, I’d vote Satan over Trump.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: I hope it works out the same way
Mnemosyne
@Luthe:
Yes. This. All of it.
Quinerly
@B.B.A.: I wasn’t aware there was a difference.
B.B.A.
@Quinerly: When you make a deal with the devil, he usually lives up to his end of the bargain.
Brachiator
@Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant):
We shall see. Still, I wonder how strong efforts were to get out the vote, as opposed to just expecting people to come out and do the right thing.
@FlipYrWhig:
Or it could be similar to Bernie Sanders level stupidity with respect to black voters.
I don’t know what the Jones campaign was like on the ground in Alabama. National news emphasized his previous background as a prosecutor in the church bombing case. But I don’t know much more about him as a political figure, or how he reached out to various communities in the state.
Aleta
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Can you link to what she actually wrote in the law journal? Your interpretations seem skewed; better to let us read from the source, in the context of what she was working on at the time.
Aleta
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Suggest you read more widely. Many women (since the 1920s and at least a few before) who’ve known and acted on that (some taught but many knowing it as birthright) have been assaulted and harassed and demeaned by men who don’t see them as equals no matter what they know and how they act.
TenguPhule
@Ruckus:
I believe I have mentioned before that its cheaper and easier to shoot them at Venus.
Viva BrisVegas
@B.B.A.:
You don’t need to, it’s a two for one deal.
TenguPhule
@Brachiator:
There are many circumstances where none of the above should be mandatory.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Aleta:
It was a physical journal published sometime in the early to mid 80s. I read it in the law library while on another project, simply bumped into it.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Here’s a weird article that broadly cites another MacKinnon piece equating gay pornography with reinforcing male dominance – not the same piece I’m discussing, but something equally goofy.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Still looking, but sooooo tedious, looking at the idiot musings of a brittle, joyless piece of shit like MacKinnon.
J R in WV
@Chet Murthy:
Except for Al Franken, who was too guilty to get a trial first when he asked for one. I guess asking for a trial was like pleading guilty?
Still pissed. There’s a buncha senators not getting another contribution from me. Lots of them have gotten generous donations in the past, won’t next election, on their own!
David Evans
@TenguPhule:
Even cheaper to dump them in a lunar crater. There’s one called Hell, currently unused.
satby
@J R in WV: agreed. Fuckem.
woodrowfan
@Millard Filmore: hell, any male past their junior year passed that point.
woodrowfan
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I suggested that on Pandagon a few years ago and got jumped on by the whole crew. Apparently I was excusing creeps who prey on women for suggesting that. Never went back.
woodrowfan
@Luthe: Maybe I am wrong, but I took Comete’s a PART of the larger picture. Teach young girls that they can say NO (as well as yes). Teach young boys to accept NO. (and then teach the girls exactly where it hurts when they kick creeps who never learned that non means no.)
Of course, you’d teach both sexes that they have a right to ask, and they have a right to refuse or accept when asked. and that “no” means “no.”
Brachiator
@woodrowfan:
I agree with this, but you also have to recognize the lack of symmetry with respect to men and women.
It is slightly hyperbolic, but true to say that men fear that women will laugh at them, but women fear that men may kill them.
And yet somehow men don’t get this when discussing this topic (and I’m a guy and probably took a lot of time to try to understand this as well)
Women DO say no, and men often respond with anger, hostility, threats.
Possibly illuminating side example. Gwyneth Paltrow says that Harvey Weinstein tried something unpleasant with her when she was 22. She rebuffed him, and told people about it, including her boyfriend Brad Pitt. Pitt later confronted Harvey and threatened to kick his butt.
What did Harvey do? He called Paltrow, yelled at her and warned her never to tell people about him. He backed down some, but dangled a threat of future retribution. But he did not say anything to Pitt. He feared Pitt, but still felt that he could apply intimidation to Paltrow.
This kind of thing goes beyond teaching women that they can say no. Women know that in the real world dealing with this stuff is a constant struggle.
Neldob
It’s the first time I have seen deep questioning of Repugs and it was great. They should do it more so we can see who they are, how cracked and savage and wrong. My favorite part is “abortion at 9 months”.
tam1MI
@Brachiator: Well I’m sure running a civil rights hero out of the House on a rail and then disenfranchising his voters for the better part of a year will be just the thing to get black voters back on board!
Matt
My one consolation with those elderly Moore voters is that they’re about to get hit by the consequences of their own stupidity. I hope they lose every goddamn thing when Social Security can’t cover the bills – but only after they watch their kids OD on opiates. Fuck these people all the way into the ground