The attitude of some male Democratic Senators pisses me off right now:
Some Democrats say that Trump should resign over the allegations numerous women have levied against him. Several of those women told their stories again this week as part of a growing movement to hold powerful men accountable for their actions.
[….]“Look, he’s not going to resign,” Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.), the Democratic vice presidential nominee in last year’s presidential election, told HuffPost on Tuesday. “So let’s not play games. He has no shame. There’s nothing you can do to shame him into resigning. So we just have to play the role that we have to be an emergency brake against all the ways he’s abusing people and our values and our country’s reputation.”
Look, you fucking idiot, that’s the whole point. Trump should resign but he won’t. That’s why you keep demanding that he resign, to make him look like an asshole. This isn’t complicated.
zhena gogolia
Fully in agreement with you here, Doug.
Rob in CT
Eh. Nobody has any illusions about whether or not Trump is an asshole. He’s the loudest/proudest asshole ever, basically. That’s why ~2/3 of the country doesn’t like him and also why the other ~1/3 does.
Major Major Major Major
I don’t understand. Did Kaine tell them to shut up and go away or something? Why are we upset?
Mike in DC
There should be 49 Democratic/indie senators demanding his resignation. Then when more bad stuff comes out there’s pressure on their Republican counterparts to join the chorus.
NickM
Kaine isn’t stupid – I don’t understand why he’s pretending not to get what’s going on here.
Barbara
I am not fully in agreement. I would not necessarily have jumped the gun on this as Tim Kaine did but even the most accurate and justified demands that Trump resign for this reason are going to become tiresome. That doesn’t mean we can’t keep bringing it up when it is opportune, but to just keep beating on the same drum is not a good strategy.
ETA: These demands will also feed the counter accusation that the Democratic agenda is simply anti-Trump, with no positive elements. I think this is what Kaine might be trying to get at. You can’t be all negative even when the negativity is totally justified and the absolutely right thing to do.
Big Ole Hound
The whole country can scream for resignation but until we Dems control congress Trump will have no fear. Even with Dem control he will just get his back up and hire lawyers. It would seem the only way is to keep asking about his health, loudly, and then he will have an excuse to step down. Physical health like not being able to climb the stairs on Air Force One.
MJS
@Major Major Major Major: “So let’s not play games” is basically, “Knock it off”. Further translation, “Only Democrats resign, everyone knows that.”
Doug!
@Barbara:
Why can’t he then say “I’m a centrist on this issue, I don’t think Trump needs to resign but there should at least be investigations”. Gillibrand and Harris make it easy for him to do that, even if he is a centrist weenie.
B.B.A.
@Barbara: There are a thousand reasons why Trump should resign. This is one of the more important ones, but it’s still just one.
Eljai
I know this is futile, but I still long for a day when Democrats can be as disciplined with messaging as republicans.
Russ
Kaine’s message is wrong, resign now, resign tomorrow, resign next Monday, resign next Tuesday, etc. etc. etc.
Barbara
@Doug!: Because he is not a centrist. I am sure he was and remains horrified at Trump’s treatment of women. Anyone can become entranced by their own self-righteousness, even us. That doesn’t make it good strategy.
Woodrowfan
Over-reaction. He’s talking to the people who think these online petitions and such really do have a chance of working to make the Circus-Peanut-from-Hell resign.
Michael Demmons
I feel like there’s a reason a lot of men aren’t calling for Trump to resign.
Like, maybe there’s something they’re afraid is going to come out about them if they speak up.
raven
It don’t mean nuthin.
oatler.
“Vanity…definitely my favorite sin.”
MJS
@Barbara: The calls for resignation are not being done in a vacuum. Those who called for Franken’s resignation are now calling for Trump’s. It not only is the consistent thing to do, it provides support to Trump’s accusers.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@raven: This.
Barbara
@MJS: Just wait for the backlash that Rebecca Traister has warned us about. Trump isn’t going to die on the hill of sexual harassment. If he were, he never would have been elected in the first place. Kristen Gillibrand looks like an opportunist even if she is on the side of the angels.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Beats me. Apparently just being a man with common sense is a crime now.
zhena gogolia
@Barbara:
So the fact that all sorts of men are having to resign their positions, step away from their companies, etc., etc., etc., resign from the U.S. Senate, and a just-as-guilty person gets to sit in the Oval Office doesn’t warrant some comment?
Doug!
@Barbara:
If thinking you need to resign your important, public-facing job once the number of credible harassment allegations against you hits double figures makes me self-righteous, then I guess I’m self-righteous.
TenguPhule
@MJS:
Yeah and Democrats will get none of the credit and all of the blame.
Now Trump gets to pretend he was ratfucked too.
Barbara
@zhena gogolia: Of course it does, but Tim Kaine is not a jerk for pointing out that they are their to oppose almost everything else Trump does as well, much of which is a clear and present danger to all of us. And that, in my view, is necessary because like it or not, “I got a tax increase but Democrats seem only to care about sexual harassment” is not the message we want people to receive.
TenguPhule
@zhena gogolia: Those other people had a sense of shame.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@TenguPhule: Well not only that. But way more Democrats, so far, called for Franken to resign vs. Trump.
Barbara
@zhena gogolia: Of course it does, but Tim Kaine is not a jerk for pointing out that they are there to oppose almost everything else Trump does as well, much of which is a clear and present danger to all of us. And that, in my view, is necessary because like it or not, “I got a tax increase but Democrats seem only to care about sexual harassment” is not the message we want people to receive.
VincentN
@Barbara:
I agree with you and disagree with you a little. You’re right that people will start tuning out if you constantly demand Trump resign and he doesn’t. It actually starts making you look weak. Strategic demands to resign whenever a relevant scandal comes up (and there won’t be a shortage of those) would probably work better.
But Kaine is wrong to suggest this is just a political game because it won’t ultimately result in the desired outcome. In one sense, it’s always a political game in DC but in another sense keeping up the pressure is good even if resignation doesn’t happen because now the administration has to spend time and resources defending and explaining. Making Trump miserable is a worthy goal on its own.
different-church-lady
You read Kane’s quote and you say, “What’s the problem, he’s just describing reality.”
You read the HuffPo article and in that framework he sounds like he’s saying stop demanding resignation.
Context, people — media plays games with it all the time.
Major Major Major Major
@Barbara: she’s been being an opportunist all year, the Franken thing is actually one where I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt (unlike the “single payer” “bill”).
different-church-lady
@MJS:
“I trained my dog to do tricks. I can’t figure out why my cat won’t.”
Barbara
@Barbara: Sorry about the double posting. This site is loading really slowly for me, especially the comments. All I am trying to say is that every issue no matter how important or just has the potential to overreach its appeal. Moreover, different people can convey that message in different ways. We don’t all need to be lockstep. If Kaine wants to go after net neutrality and taxes while Gillibrand and Harris fire away on sexual harassment, that’s okay. Kaine should not undermine what they are doing, that he can be faulted for.
zhena gogolia
@Barbara:
I never suggested Democrats do NOTHING but call for his resignation.
gene108
@Major Major Major Major:
Why are we upset?!?!? A Democratic politician said something I am not in total agreement with!!!!!!!
Is there a better reason?
Miss Bianca
“Yeah, we demanded that Al Franken should resign, and he DID, because we could make him do it, so now we demand Trump resign too, although he won’t!”
I seem to recall that Tim Kaine didn’t jump on that “Al Franken should resign” bandwagon, and I actually think better of him for it than I do of say, my Dem Senator Michael Bennett. Because demands that Trump resign are bullshit without any power to enforce them.
sherparick
As Scott Loomis states, this is why Gillibrand is by far the most talented Democratic politician in the Senate. http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/12/becoming-party-tolerates-sexual-misconduct-excellent-news-republican-party-spoiler-no
In part it was principal, but in part pragmatic politics that Franken had to be defenestrated to lay the trap for Trump and the Republicans. Kaine unfortunately does not understand how the game is played.
different-church-lady
@Doug!: He got there by being utterly shameless. He got rewarded for being utterly shameless. A very large number of voters in this country gave him that reward because he was utterly shameless.
To belive they will suddenly decide to take away that reward, or that he will give it up voluntarily, is naivety at best and stupidity at worse. DO NOT STRATEGIZE ON IT. Yes, call for his resignation, but do not believe for a second that he will do it.
Major Major Major Major
@sherparick: what trap?
ETA even the ducky pajamas guy is sticking around for the rest of his term.
Steeplejack
@Barbara:
This is starting to worry me a little bit. Chris Matthews is a dinosaur, but in some ways he is a bellwether of media both-siderism, and he has been mentioning this lately, usually in querulous questions to various Democrats about why they aren’t getting stuff done or setting out a positive agenda.
What he ignores is that it’s hard to get started on renovating/repairing your house when it’s currently ablaze and firemen are still tramping around the place. First things first. And the reality may be that simply being anti-Trump is the best we can hope for at present.
different-church-lady
@sherparick:
THE TRAP IS NOT TRUMP-SHAPED. WHY DOES NOBODY GET THIS?
zhena gogolia
@Major Major Major Major:
DON’T MAKE ME CLICK ON THAT LINK AGAIN
TenguPhule
@sherparick:
You are playing 3 Dimensional Chess with a fucking pigeon.
Miss Bianca
@Doug!: Or better yet, he should say, “I agree that we ought to have Congressional investigations into Trump’s behavior, a courtesy that my fellow Democratic Senators didn’t see fit to extend to our colleague Al Franken.” How about that?
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
Shh, be very very quiet, Gillibrand got her trapmaking skills from old Elmer Fudd cartoons.
Major Major Major Major
@Steeplejack: I think we should be doing a shadow government thing.
Eljai
There was a hacktacular Steve Inskeep interview with Linda Sanchez on NPR (I know, I know! I have got to stop torturing myself.) And Inskeep suggested Dems have a dilemma about whether to pursue impeachment or talk about issues. Sanchez said something, something, we need a positive agenda. Then they both spent time Pelosi bashing. All she needed to say was “when there are impeachable offenses, hell yeah, we pursue impeachment.”
RP
I have a completely different take on this (and I acknowledge I could be wrong). I see Kaine’s comments as working in conjunction with the ones asking Trump to resign. By saying Trump isn’t going to resign because he’s shameless, he’s keeping the story in the news and emphasizing how awful Trump is compared to someone like Franken.
TenguPhule
@VincentN:
Wrong. That would require a media with bite. SHS keeps kicking them in the nuts and they just keep spreading their legs wide. She doesn’t bother explaining and they never bother to follow up.
different-church-lady
@Eljai:
The “or” in that statement is only conditioned by the fact that THE FUCKIN’ INDUSTRY HE WORKS FOR CAN ONLY PAY ATTENTION TO ONE SHINY OBJECT AT A TIME.
TenguPhule
@Eljai: As a national party we have absolutely no fucking message discipline.
zhena gogolia
@RP:
That’s a generous interpretation. Could be correct.
ETA: I’m generally a fan of Kaine.
Major Major Major Major
@different-church-lady: hitting the bottle early today?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
But that would give credit to one of Trump’s outrageous conspiracy theories and make it less of a lie.
different-church-lady
@Major Major Major Major: Some days call for STONE COLD SOBER SHOUTINESS!!!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
This is where I am– the core message of Democrats should be “The American people deserve to know all the facts, and it’s our job in Congress to get those facts to them, in public”. We always need to bear in mind that we political junkies are a small minority overall, and an even smaller minority among Dems and Dem-leaners
That made me laugh
Ruviana
@sherparick: “Lemieux.” The idea of a Scott Loomis is kind of scary! -:)
MikeifromArlington
Kaine was my gov. He’s usually fairly reserved but he’s pretty blunt in descibing the president. I know Trump is extraordinarily crazy but honestly, I think they all suspect the smoking gun is going to come out of the FBI soon enough and not just democrats will be shouting resign in unison.
Even with Trump being as coocoo as he is, having a President resign is a fairly historical thing, and I’d be sure no advisor to the president is suggesting he do so either.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
Look, dingos look just like regular dogs. I can obviously trust my baby with them, right?
Miss Bianca
@sherparick: No, Gillbrand has jumped onto the “most righteous Democrat ever since St Bernard, whio isn’t even a Democrat” wagon.Like with the single-payer grandstanding. Maybe she actually gives a shit about sexual harrassment and abuse, maybe she doesn’t. But she thinks that LOOKING like she’s doing the right thing is actually the same as doing the right thing.
And it may work out for her, but I somehow doubt it. Because the people she’s going to have to impress with this schtick are white women voters, which is the only demographic she’s going to be able to move in sufficient quantities to support a run for President, if that’s what she’s angling for. But white women voters are stunningly unfeminist as a voting bloc, as a rule. Meanwhile, something something something will get the white male sexist vote riled against her. And she’s not exactly setting a great example of party loyalty for her colleagues when whatever bullshit gets flung at her gets flung. In fact, she’s set the trap for herself – the proper thing to do, obviously, in the face of allegations but little hard evidence, will be for them to distance themselves from her.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: I don’t understand this comment.
Ruviana
@Miss Bianca: Thank you. This is perfect. This whole thing still infuriates me.
tobie
@Steeplejack: Matthews only importance is that he gives one a view of conventional wisdom. For that, I guess, I’m grateful. He’s right that the Dems PR effort needs to be focused on the fact that Trump and the GOP are working for their donors, not YOU. Pointing out that Trump is the swamp is more likely to gain converts than returning to the Access Hollywood tape, hideous though it is.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think protecting/expanding Medicare and Social Security are good messages– it was a huge factor in trump’s campaigns, for all that he never said anything meaningful (edited) and didn’t know or care what the hell he was talking about. “Now is not the time to be cutting Medicare the way their billionaire’s christmas tree tax bill does, we need to strengthen it by opening it up to more people”
Me, too, but I would say he’s a damn good Senator and not a great spokesman
TenguPhule
@MikeifromArlington:
Trump could be caught eating live babies on TV at this point and Republicans would not be calling on him to resign because they know he has receipts showing they were the ones that stole the baby from its parents and sent it to the White House for him to devour. They’re all in at this point.
jeffreyw
I think he’s wanting to pivot from demanding a resignation to demanding the House begins impeachment. He is calling for the Congress to do their fucking job.
different-church-lady
The question here is, what would Trump resign over?
different-church-lady
And then, if we do get Trump’s skull, what do we do about the Pence problem?
Steeplejack
@Major Major Major Major:
C’mon, it wasn’t all caps.
JPL
@TenguPhule: True.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Trump has been complaining about the Deep State and Democrat Secret conspirators out to get him, this insanity has been further fleshed out by the hard right echo chamber into a full blown secret government shadow cabal which is trying to run things behind the scenes to make Trump look bad.
tobie
@Miss Bianca: Her political instincts may be overrated. She’s lost a lot of support in one month from loyal Dems.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
Fumigate and Sterilize.
Constance Reader
@MJS: They should have called for Trump’s resignation *before* Franken’s, especially as Franken voluntarily made himself available to full due process (which was denied him) and Trump has never done the same, or at the very least the calls for both resignations should have come at the same time. Calling for Trump to resign (with full knowledge that he never, ever will) several days after Franken was hounded out of the senate is just rabid, naked opportunism on Gillibrand’s part.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
not quite OT: I wonder (not really) if a single elected Republican will speak up about this latest interference(s) with an on-going investigation
LurkerNoLonger
I think Trump is doing a fine job of this all by himself.
PJ
@sherparick: Trap? What are you talking about? Calling for Trump, or any Republican to resign, 1) is not a trap, because it’s f*cking obvious, and 2) is going to be just as effective in getting them to resign as is pointing out, before the election, that Trump sexually harasses women was in causing people not to vote for him, and for the same reason – the Republicans have no shame, and their voters don’t care. It may make strategic sense, long term, to call for Trump’s resignation, but there are dangers in it becoming background noise when there is no political possibility of it happening.
Furthermore, this was not Gillibrand’s plan – if it had been, she would have called for Trump to resign at the same time as she did with Franken, or immediately thereafter, but instead she waited until others started to call for his resignation, because she didn’t want to be left off the bandwagon.
B.B.A.
@sherparick: In five years’ time we’re all going to be working for her – or dead by her hand.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
Absolutely nothing.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
TenguPhule
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
“And if someone would rid me of this meddlesome FBI, I am sure they would be handsomely rewarded.”
Yes, they’re going there. They are absolutely going there.
Matt
@Barbara:
“you can’t be all-negative”
I mean, it’s only a crook in the WH demolishing every department while lining his own pockets and preparing to start a nuclear war. Think about how much cheaper apartments will be in Seoul after a couple million people get killed – be positive!
His resignation should be called for at every available opportunity, along with the resignation of every GOP official down to county fucking dogcatcher.
Miss Bianca
@tobie: it’s fascinating – I lurk over at LGM and a whole bunch of them are all “yay Gillibrand for forcing one of our best Senators to resign before an ethics committee investigation because VIRTUE SIGNALLING is what makes Democrats strong, whooo!”. Then a bunch of folks who comment both there and here are all, “Well, BJ readers are mad about that, they must all be BernieBros, or Clintonistas, or something.” About the only thing everyone seems to agree on is that there seems to be a generational divide between the two viewpoints. Which could well be true – I’m not really sure what the average age is over on that site vs. this one.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: A shadow cabinet in the US would basically just be pieces of model legislation. They don’t even have to use the word ‘shadow’. I don’t see how they could (successfully) spin it as the deep state out to get trump. It’s elected officials proposing things.
B.B.A.
@TenguPhule: Finally, something we agree on 100%.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
None of the RWNJ ideas make sense or sound anything other then insane. This has never impeded them from selling them to their target audience before.
PJ
@Miss Bianca: I have never been to LGM, whatever that is, but, judging from the pictures in commenter meet-ups, it seems like here that the average commenter is probably over 45. I would be curious to know what younger Democratic voters think about Franken being forced out.
Ruviana
@Miss Bianca: Yep, I read that thread in real time and I’ve pretty much decided that LGM skews younger than BJ does and I’ve seen a definite generational divide between younger and older women. I had a screaming fight with my younger colleague who told me that it didn’t matter that what Franken did or may have done was not as bad as, say, Harvey Weinstein, we had to believe the women, have zero tolerance and no one could have forgiveness or redemption. I saw some of that same immovability at LGM too.
TenguPhule
Meanwhile, Doug, that tax abomination’s major details are coming out today.
Voting on it could start as early as Monday in the House.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: As I said,
Convincing your rabid base of something doesn’t count, and as you just said, those people already believe it, so it wouldn’t even be a difference.
@TenguPhule: No! We must tear down other Democrats!
Another Scott
Meh. Everyone knows that Donnie “looks like an asshole”. That’s been clear to everyone since he took that escalator ride (if they didn’t know it before). Kaine yelling for him to resign at this point isn’t going to change anyone’s mind or make Donnie look any worse.
It doesn’t hurt for him and others to wait until, say, Mueller’s report comes out. Gillibrand and others can run with this while Kaine pushes memes about the tax bill, Flynn, and all the rest.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Miss Bianca
@PJ: Sorry – LGM = “Lawyers, Guns, and Money” where the aforementioned Scott LeMieux blogs.
@Ruviana: I’m betting there is a definite generational divide among Democrats/Democratic-leaning voters on this issue. Particularly the “zero-tolerance” thing, which I think is an approach that sounds great in theory, and proves to be problematic in practice. Maybe “nuance” is one of those things you just tend to value more as you get older (if you’re lucky, that is).
Barbara
@Matt: Thanks for interpreting what I said in the worst light possible. Stating that Democrats are not going to blunder into a catastrophic nuclear war would count as a positive agenda.
different-church-lady
@Another Scott:
Not only did they know it, A HUGE PART OF HIS SHARE OF THE VOTE DID SO BECAUSE HE’S AN ASSHOLE.
The Moar You Know
@different-church-lady: Nothing. Kaine has a point there. It will never happen for any reason at all.
It should be brought up fairly often, but not made the centerpiece of Dem opposition to Trump, as it’s pretty damn weak sauce as far as effective opposition. Everyone in America knows Trump can’t be shamed into anything. It’s the reason a lot of people voted for him.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Ever since Republicans successfully spun the failures of 9/11 into “Bush is strong on security and keeping you safe”, I no longer question that they can.
different-church-lady
@The Moar You Know:
Great minds think alike. And so do ours.
ByRookorByCrook
The President performs bad/ illegal behavior. We shouldn’t point out he is unfit for office and should resign? I don’t get this. Yes a large percentage of the country was okay with his admitted sexual assault, but you don’t ignore it. You tie the rest of his enablers to him by giving a contrast. The GOP is willing to accept this behavior, the Democratic Party will not tolerate this. Why is this hard? There is no jumping the gun with Trump before the evidence is in. He admitted it, although now denies it. What is the downside to demanding a sexual predator resign?
different-church-lady
@TenguPhule: They could spin a wet Kleenex tissue.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
I see you’ve been watching the classics again.
different-church-lady
@ByRookorByCrook:
It’s not hard. It’s questionable as to whether it will work.
It’s Calvin’s world, we’re just playing with his ball.
Belafon
So he said out loud what we’ve been saying on the blogs. We can say “resign” but we know Trump won’t do it. He’ll barricade the door with the bodies of his family if he’s impeached. Kaine is right, but that doesn’t mean we can’t keep calling for it.
different-church-lady
@ByRookorByCrook: To put it another way: it was pointed out repeatedly that he was unfit for office before he was voted into office.
With that practical reality in front of us, what gains should we realistically expect from pointing it out more today?
TenguPhule
@ByRookorByCrook:
We do it, it gets one media cycle and then gets buried under fresh new outrages.
This is the problem, Trump provides so much fresh news to the media that they have a perverse incentive to make sure he stays right where he is. Its a never-ending shit tsunami, but no single piece of shit sticks around long enough for the general public to identify it as the particular piece of shit choking them at that particular moment.
different-church-lady
@Belafon: I think what people are really annoyed by is that Kane gave away Gillibrand’s game.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
Balls. Rule change of X is the Q of 12.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: So we mustn’t have a positive agenda then, because Trump will mumble something about shadows. Got it.
Ruviana
@Miss Bianca: Nancy LeTourneau at Washington Monthly had some interesting things to say about zero tolerance. She’s had several measured and reasonable columns about the whole thing.
bemused
@different-church-lady:
Media does the “or” setup to get soundbites. Creating divisive scenario questions for “news” is lousy journalism. It’s not as if there isn’t plenty of serious real news to cover. Drives me crazy. I think Dems can walk and chew gum at the same time if they choose to.
eclare
Just called Corker’s DC office, took a while to get through, hopefully that is a good sign. Staffperson sounded like she wanted to end the call ASAP.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
At this point shutting the government down qualifies as a positive agenda.
different-church-lady
@Ruviana: The obvious problem with “zero tolerance” is that it is quite easily gamed.
Ruviana
@different-church-lady: Exactly. And unintended consequences as well.
ByRookorByCrook
There is no downside to making the call for resignation. It may get buried in fresh atrocities, but there is no reason not to make the call. Were we trying to make massive inroads in the WWC pro-rape vote? I don’t get why Kaine didn’t just say, “Yes, he should resign for his shameful behavior and his continuing demeaning of the Presidency.” Then transition into the latest atrocity. Not hard Not a difficult call. Not spending any political capital at all to do this.
bemused
@sherparick:
A lot of Minnesotans aren’t a bit happy with Gillibrand and rest of Dems rush to dump Franken judging from opinion pieces, several from women, in the Star Tribune and most letters to the ed in the paper along with other Minnesota media outlets and blogs, ranging from Franken needed to have that investigation, it was a rush to judgement to a lot of anger at the Dems.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Great. The random “people are” subject, which usually refers to the white hot sphere of rage which infests a Breitbart commenter’s soul.
ruemara
@PJ: Most that I know were demanding he resign by victim 2.
LongHairedWeirdo
I’m torn on Kaine’s statement. If he was saying “I support calls for his resignation, but he’s such a shameless man, with no sense of what’s good for the country, he won’t,” I’m 100% cool with it.
But I do see how it sounds dismissive, “oh, stop worrying your pretty little heads about resignation…”. And I hope he realizes that if he’s going to play the other side of “He should resign/he SHOULD but we all know Republicans don’t care about doing the right thing” he has to make sure the “resign” side knows he’s doing that.
KithKanan
@Miss Bianca, @Ruviana:
Regarding the generational divide, I wonder if a lot of the reason younger people are more accepting of zero tolerance policies (no matter how stupid they are) is that younger people were subjected to them in schools so they think of them as normal.
Kathleen
@<a href="#comment-6679390different-church-lady: The industry he works for has stake in always positioning Dems as weak and ineffectual while ignoring depth of Republican depravity. Especially true at NPR and NYT.
Ruviana
@KithKanan: They could. LeTourneau suggested that it plays an important role in the school-to-prison pipeline. It also undermines people’s trust in institutions, making them all the more susceptable to the idea of drowning government in a bathtub or representing it as a bunch of stacked up paper.
Hoodie
Kaine is pissed because he didn’t think of it first. Gillibrand’s focus on this issue is all about her defining a base, which she probably views as suburban women. That’s an important demographic, especially when you’re setting up to fight the current gop. The point is not to force a groundswell if calls for trump to resign, but to stake out a path to the democratic nomination and , ultimately, a win in the general election. Some may dismiss that as opportunistic, but I generally have no problem with democrats who are opportunistic, we need more of that type of aggression. Kaine can’t pull that off, and we saw that being the nice dad who speaks mediocre Spanish is not a path to victory, either. Obama could take that route because he also had the ability to subtly project a more cutthroat side. Kaine is just not that kind of guy. Right now, Gillibrand is showing this opportunistic edge to complement her image as an attractive woman and mother with small children, which might be an effective package. Let’s see what some other contenders can come up with. This is all auditioning before the big show.
The Simp in the Suit
Sshh! Tim Kaine is busy winning another presidential election.
Oh wait…
grubert
@Miss Bianca:
I’m always stunned at how people come to such strongly held conclusions while knowing so few relevant facts.
“So many accusers! They can’t all be lying!”
“So many? Name more then three.”
As three men make a tiger, so three women make a forced resignation.
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady:
More people are beginning to notice.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
A story, and illustrative of the generational divide:
Youngest daughter (the one who just graduated from college with stellar grades and was originally SUPPOSED to do Archaeology) was communicating with the Countess about something that we both wanted to do for her. There was a minor bit of miscommunication which – as is typical with this particular daughter – sent her into anger. Her mom got really upset about what she was being told and terminated the conversation. Daughter calls me, upset, and par for me, I said “minor misunderstanding and patchable.” I got yelled at for gaslighting and tone policing, and hung up on. In a set of rage filled, vitriolic texts, I got told that I’m nonempathetic and needed to apologize for minimizing her feelings her entire life, and that I’m gaslighting and tone policing when I’m not acknowledging her feelings. She sent me a couple of articles which, frankly, could have been written by any sophomore Intro to Womyns Empowerment seminar. She asked me if I read them and I said that I’d reflect on them and talk to her about them tomorrow. She began taunting me as a “cis hetero white man who can’t handle those truths”. I responded with “OK, those articles are about oppression. You’re not oppressed, and have been willingly and happily granted every opportunity to do what you want with life”.
Next thing I know, I’m getting a rage filled call, complete with a stated intent to burn out marriage to the ground, and that I needed to make an apology for my misogyny and she’s going to cut off all contact and not come home for Christmas.
I’m not sure that I actually care at this point. The kid really got under my skin – she’s now talking about some sort of women’s studies masters, which is a recipe for constant aggrievement.
grubert
@Ruviana:
I have two friends my age ( 50’s ) , both male, white, doctrinaire Democrats who are on the “throw him out!” bandwagon. Their obstinacy is absolute.
eclare
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Is that a generational divide, or typical immature college kid being typical immature college kid? Although her actions seem way over the top in response to a miscommunication.
grubert
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Wow, it’s like you’re describing my 18 yr old step-daughter. Time after time, after these drama filled arguments with her mom or sometimes me, I look online and find on some website like Jezebel almost the exact same verbiage that powers her outrage.
Major Major Major Major
@grubert: @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: the movement of critical theory outrage from niche academia to mainstream millennial media and thought/speech patterns has been… bad.
tybee
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: i’d be tempted to tell her that i’d hate to oppress her any further by paying for her education.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@eclare:
She is snagging every nasty thing that the most vitriolic MRA women haters, Pepe posters and MAGA apologists whine about with regard to social justice warriors, and applying them to me. She’s been trashing me on her Facebook wall, too, sort of “phony ally harboring all the feelings we’re fighting against” crap. The girl is 22 going on about 13, and she is immersing herself in relationships with likeminded aggrieved people.
Part of it is maturity, but to be honest, a much greater part is the adoption of this rhetoric and cause. This fall, she completely burnt her relationship with her mentor, a professor who is preeminent in her field. This professor had the audacity to comment negatively on one of her unhinged “SJW trigger” posts, and to remark that she thought that daughter has a greater capacity for reasoning and analysis than that – and said that quite frankly, she was disappointed in my daughter.
Again, WW3.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Major Major Major Major: Yeesh, I was (mostly) blissfully unaware of that, being a childless old. I thought that was confined to adolescents (of all ages) still tweeting about how they were fucking RIGHT to vote for Stein because…. But those tend to be grounded in half (at best) understood economic terms
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@tybee:
Sadly, I already did pay for it, and have not insignificant PLUS loan obligations on her behalf.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Major Major Major Major:
Yup. Genuinely unpleasant, and not in a “let me look inside myself” way, but instead a “god, what a fucking asshole” way.
eclare
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Ugh. I am a childless old, so no experience with that. Sounds like she has a lot of passion, too bad it’s being focused on BS. I would also be tempted to not further aggrieve her by paying for her education.
ETA> Just saw your post about her education costs. Major ugh.
Major Major Major Major
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: yeah, a shitty understanding of leftist Econ is the other side of that same coin. It’s really disheartening. The internet (and this sort of Tumblr-fication of rhetoric) has made it a lot easier to replace critical thought and self-examination with victimhood and righteousness. It’s all the stereotypes of lefty SJW academia snowflake blah blah stuff that the alt-righters hate, but they actually come from somewhere, as Comte noted above.
It’s just replicating the right’s problem with bone-headed self-righteousness on the left.
glory b
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Tell her that her privilege is showing.
If I had said anything like that, as they say in my community, my mama would have snatched me bald headed.
theturtlemoves
@Major Major Major Major:
Exactly. I’ll take it a bit further. Many, possibly most, people have at least some tendency to be selfish assholes, but they want to give the appearance of NOT being selfish assholes. So, on the right you get Prosperity Gospel and on the left you get people vomiting critical theory terminology as if it actually applies to normal human interactions.
StringOnAStick
I’ve got a Millenial friend who goes out of her way to say how much she hates Boomers (I’m a Boomer, though a very late one) because they took all the good stuff, ruined the planet, etc. She works with my husband, also a good friend so that’s who I hear most of it from. My response is “no one stopped you and your age group from voting, except you and your age group”. I honestly think a lot of the anger bubbled up thanks to memes being pushed by Russian bots. Again.
eemom
Lemme get this straight. Y’all are arguing over whether Tim Kaine shouldn’t have said that people should stop wasting their time on meaningless verbiage over something that will never happen? The argument is that meaningless verbiage over something that will never happen IS a productive political strategy??
Through the looking glass. So very very far through the looking glass.
Major Major Major Major
@glory b:
Ha! Totally.
@theturtlemoves: I grew up thinking the left was better than this. The inability to separate theory from practice is why I identify as a liberal, which leads to lots of awkward conversations in my millennial san franciscan life.
JPL
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Merry Christmas Again.
TenguPhule
@eemom:
Sadly, Yes.
No Drought No More
Kaine’s thinking is typical of old school democrats that continue to truckle to the GOP. They are the same democrats that stupidly continue to turn their blind eyes and mute mouths to the responsibility the republican party will forever shoulder in their successful plot to War in Iraq. Far worse in my estimation, their fateful misjudgment in having done served to place the onus of the catastrophe on the rank and file, and not the congressional leadership where it belongs- the leadership that 14 years ago gave succor to the republican party plot to war, and later to its cover-up. To think, Donald Trump continues to this very minute to collude with a foreign enemy- permit me to pause, and make clear that enemy is not the great Russian people- yet even so, Kaine lacks the guts to confront it. He would have Trump resign in disgrace for disgraceful sexual assault, rather be politically garroted for his infamous treason, in order to serve as an historic marker. Democrats with such political instincts are unfit to lead the democratic party of the future. Did I say future? Hell, they’re unfit to lead it jun the present.
FlyingToaster (Tablet)
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I can only recommend, based on my family’s experience, that you do not pay for grad school. It forced some profound changes in mine and one of my sibs attitudes when we had to put our ideas into practice in entry-level jobs.
ruemara
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: She’s being a brat. If I had parents willing to pay for grad school, I’d be a hell of a lot more respectful. And yes, if your parents a footing the bill for grad school and you’re tossing around terms like that, you’re not being oppressed, love, you’re being a brat. Follow glory b’s advice and tell her her privilege is showing.
A Ghost To Most
Not up to snuff on the Franken back-and-forth, but I did notice that Mueller has turned his attention to Cambridge Analytica. Excellent.
zhena gogolia
@A Ghost To Most:
I was a fan of Al Franken, as a comedian and as a senator. I own almost all of his books. My husband’s Christmas present to me was Al Franken Giant of the Senate. But if I never hear his name again for all eternity it will be too soon.
Major Major Major Major
@A Ghost To Most: if Mueller doesn’t think we should have forced Franken to resign, I’m done with him.
low-tech cyclist
@The Moar You Know:
Agreed. But failing to make an issue of it now, while the issue of men using their power to get away with sexual harassment and assault is very much in the public mind, would be serious political malpractice.
Men are losing their jobs right and left – and not a moment too soon – for doing stuff like this, some way worse than Trump (Weinstein), some that Trump was way worse than (Franken), but Trump’s numerous assaults collectively fall right smack in the middle of the range of conduct that’s caused men to be kicked off their powerful perches.
People can see that, if reminded of it. So it’s important that the Dems take advantage of this moment to remind them that Trump most certainly deserves to lose his office over this, regardless of whether he will. This moment won’t last forever. Gotta grab it while it’s there.
Will it be the centerpiece of our case against the GOP in the fall of 2018? Of course not; it’ll be way the hell on the periphery by then. But we need to take advantage of the opportunities that each moment presents.
matt
Attack when they are weak. What if they’re not always weak? Impeachment looks like a good idea right now and Democrats should look for opportunities to express good ideas.
Mnemosyne
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I am not a psychologist, so take all of the below with a grain of salt:
Given some things you’ve said about the Countess in the past when you guys hit your rough patch, it’s possible that your kid has developed Borderline Personality Disorder, or is verging on it. The sudden fits of rage are what’s making me a little suspicious that that may be what’s going on. (Worst case scenario would be untreated bipolar disorder.) Read a book called “I Hate You — Don’t Leave Me” by Kreisman and Straus and see if it sounds familiar.
The good news is that it’s the only one of the Cluster B personality disorders that responds well to treatment. DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy) in a group with a trained counselor has done wonders for a lot of people.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@FlyingToaster (Tablet):
Oh, she can kiss my ass on grad school. I put that kid in a $700 a month apartment for three years after her first dorm year, provided her a new leased vehicle for the first three and replaced it with my really nice Jeep when the lease expired, decent cellphones on my plan, computers, internet. We supplied spending money, grocery money and significant travel and project money (the kid spent large amounts of time in Albania, Belize, Greece and Cambodia doing Archaeology and some specialty training), and traveled with her Mom to Italy, Greece, Turkey and Thailand.
I’m pissed. She’s a complete brat, and I feel totally used. Over 105K in direct expenses for School and living alone (she was too fractious for roommates) just burnt so she can hate me.
But her emails!!!
@Hoodie:
I’ve decided to turn over agency. I’m going to support and vote for whichever democrat has the strongest support among African American women. If Gillibrand can’t win their support, she’s not getting mine either.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: A little unclear why you’d say untreated bipolar is worse than BPD.
different-church-lady
@zhena gogolia: And this is one of the reasons rat-fucking is so effective: (Blank) Fatigue.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Mnemosyne:
I’ll look that up, thank you!
schrodingers_cat
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: She doesn’t hate you. Give her time. This too shall pass.
I too was a bratty daughter in my past life, so I am saying this from experience. My relationship with my father hit a rough patch when I was in my early twenties. Give her space and let her be. Just tell her that you will be there if you need her.
PJ
@different-church-lady: I’m a Democrat, but I don’t want to hear about those emails again, or whatever new Clinton scandal comes down the road, so I’m just going to stay home or vote for Jill Stein . . .
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Mnemosyne:
Wow. Just…wow. There are a whole raft of books on this. I never thought of her as BPD (my experience with people with it basically consists of total life failures), but a lot of that fits her to a T. She’s smart and driven, but blown up all of her relationships and workplaces through this behavior.
Sadly, she had some counselor along the way that she says encouraged her to let emotions flow unchecked and to demand accountability from others while refusing to accept real-time explanations, disagreement or pushback.
I have long tried to explain how in my world, people have to learn to control their expressions of emotion and anger (and how they lose contact with their children if they don’t). I have tried to explain that the therapists in my professional sphere try to provide tools to manage expressions of anger.
She rails against my description of that, and has included that in her claim that I “gaslight” her.
Yeah, this fits.
Emma
So we have our next Democratic target. First Franken, now Kaine. Boy Gillibrand and her supporters are really clearing the bench early.
Major Major Major Major
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: In some ways (also not a psychologist/iatrist) BPD can be thought of as terminal brattiness, but you really gotta be brat doubleplus and often with some self-harm thrown in to qualify. I of course don’t know her situation, but it’s more than just being a huge brat.
FlimFlam
So, Doug: if you were a House Republican during the Obama years, I guess you’d be leading the charge on repeatedly voting to repeal ACA? Repubs repeatedly doing something they knew would go nowhere is just as stupid and pointless as trying to shame the Great Orange Gas Bag into resigning.
Also, calling someone like Tim Kaine a ‘fucking idiot’ just because you don’t like what he’s saying right now is not productive nor does it accomplish anything other than making you look childish. Don’t be childish.
eclare
@But her emails!!!: That sounds like an excellent voting strategy. Will do the same here.
TenguPhule
@No Drought No More:
Wrong Democrat. That would be Gillibrand you want to set on fire.
jl
If the Democratic Party wants to regain a leadership role in society, the they have to be more than an emergency brake. The attitude Kaine expresses is far too passive.
And how are they an emergency brake anyway? They can stop very little of the damaging Trumpster and GOP initiatives. So, Kaine is abdicating responsibility for aggressively pushing an alternative policy platform needed to gain enthusiastic popular support, and claiming a power and a practical function, that his party does not currently have. Makes no sense, and shows no leadership.
MarkK
Agree with Kaine. He also did not demand Sen. Franken resign. Trump will never resign. He’s not like Nixon apparently who loved his mother and family and knew the law had him caught so he finally did the right thing. Trump does not care about any (he went all-in for a “good guy” child molester Moore!) of these things. I would bet not one person under Trump believes these women anyway. What will bring him down is those under him don’t want to be taken down as a Russian-loving traitor.
Somebody said “Liberals don’t appreciate evil. They want to believe everyone deep down is a human being.” IMO, this is what Kaine is getting at. Trump is a menace and the conventional ways to stop him won’t work.
MarkK
@Emma: exactly!
TenguPhule
@Emma:
Boy, oh boy, I can’t wait to find out how many lesbian rapists are counted among Gillibrand and her fellow female Senators. /s
TenguPhule
@jl:
Shut down the government. No budget, no money, Republican’s problem.
zhena gogolia
@low-tech cyclist:
Very well put.
trnc
@Steeplejack:
That’s ridiculous. Matthews knows how the gov’t works, so he knows exactly why Dems aren’t “getting stuff done.” I’d love for someone to ask him exactly how Dems are supposed to pass an agenda.
tybee
@trnc:
they do a reach-around the aisle.
grubert
@zhena gogolia:
I’m a Minnesotan, was never a fan of Franken the comedian, but have watched his transformation from comedian into politician from his 1996 Press Club speech through almost all his Air America shows and voted for him twice. Mild approval in his first term, but lately he has shown himself to be a real force for sanity.
I’ve also looked at all the accusers. As of last count; 8. All but 3 are anonymous, most via dubious sourcing. The nature of the accusations are highly context sensitive. The whole business reeks of a well-timed political character assassination, and in the current environment is working wonderfully.
Al Franken knew his history was a problem in politics, and I watched as he worked very hard to reframe himself as a serious politician. The idea that such a smart man who clearly understood the danger of his history and was so dedicated to being taken seriously.. the idea that he would indulge in some arrogant sexual jollies in a public setting.. is absurd!
My question to you and all others who want him gone: Do you really think Franken was doing that? Getting some cheap jollies? At the cost of all that work? Do you think he’s stupid? Do you think he feels untouchable?
The Moar You Know
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: That has nothing to do with any generational divide. My neighbor’s kids (I don’t have any thank FSM) are putting themselves through college and if grad school is called for, they’ll put themselves through that too. Every kid their age I’ve met knows the score: gotta do this one way or another. They’re willing to work.
Cut her off. And then get ready for some real histrionics, but believe me, if you don’t do this now, you end up with a clone of my sister-in-law as a kid. Late 40s, she’s never had a job, husband’s been living on that sweet dad money for 12 years now as well, and dad is funding every last thing for her, non-working hubby, and two kids. And he doesn’t have it to start with. You don’t want that as your daughter’s future, you really don’t.
chopper
@Belafon:
it’s true that all this other stuff is happening such as the tax bill, but any reasonably competent democrat can focus on that shit while also making a daily or so statement demanding trump resign for being a traitor and a scumbag asshole. a chorus of senators constantly bringing up the fact that he’s a sexual predator is great.
RinaX
@eemom:
Bingo. Get mad all you want, but one of the most effective things Dems have done is make it known just how toxic Trump’s proposals have been, starting with the Obama-care appeals and now with the tax package. Thanks to the daily parade of new names getting called out, the sexual harassment aspect’s not getting much more than a shrug and a “Should have known”. However, pretty much everyone happily comes together to rant about Trump’s economic proposals and how they’re going to be hurt by them.
Trump should never have been elected, period. But it’s not going to be the sexual harassment aspect that brings him down. It may frustrate many, but Kaine isn’t wrong.
TenguPhule
@RinaX:
Being correct is an unforgivable sin here.
Ruviana
@grubert: Not a Minnesotan but otherwise exactly how I feel about it. It didn’t track like nearly all the other cases we’ve become so familiar with, instead of whispers about “open secrets” Franken got open letters praising his professionalism. Since he made his resignation speech no one else that I’m aware of has come forward, while other people continue to surface in these other cases. One can believe women. One can be entirely on board with wiping out (or reducing?) sexual harassment. But this doesn’t mean that this can’t be co-opted by others for their own purposes.
grubert
@Mnemosyne:
Step-daughter was diagnosed BPD. We went through DBT with her.
I was initially enthused about DBT because I had read about REBT ( Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy, ) of which DBT is supposed to be a subtype. I saw REBT as basically what I’ve done on myself most of my life, how I got over a difficult childhood.
The DBT sessions we attended were kind of disappointing though. Rather then trying to impress a rational perspective and disconnect from prejudice, it was more a sequence of mantra memorization and role playing to call out negative self talk and other self-esteem issues. There were games and forbidden words and by including adults, some of who went on about their own lives at length… I wasn’t very optimistic about results.
I suppose a few of the kids got something out of it. I know that doing *something* feels better then doing nothing. But DBT as practiced at this clinic.. not a cure for BPD IMHO.
FlipYrWhig
@Doug!:
This is bullshit, probably based on the way that Kaine behaves in public, i.e., quiet and smiley. But Kaine isn’t a centrist at all. Kaine is a tenacious social-justice Catholic with deep and warm ties to black Richmond. I say this confidently because I worked with someone to whom he’s been a longstanding family friend.
grubert
@Ruviana:
Another difference is that virtually all the other current sexual abuse accusations involve men having authority/power over the women they’re abusing, to the point that these men feel they can get away it and mostly have gotten away with it.
One notable exception is Trump himself, and I feel pretty confident saying his entire life has been an “untouchable” one. He even got away with saying things during the primary that no other politician would dare say, and that breaking of norms helped elect him.
Anyway, even powerful abusers ( except Trump it seems, ) do their dirty business in private. In a locked office, by the pool at home, in a closet at the end of the hall..etc. They’re afraid of being found out.
But Franken, who had *no* power or authority over any of these women, was supposed to be so brazen to grab junk in full public view? Ridiculous.
WaterGirl
@grubert: I’m not from MN, but thank you for writing this. Most of the people I see who are convinced that Al Franken is some kind of pervert use language to describe various situations (like the photo from the CSO tour or the waist grabbing incident) in ways that show they haven’t paid close attention OR they have an ulterior motive.
They describe the photo as Franken grabbing her boobs. Or they say he has groped all these women in photos, when it appears that they are waist or shoulder squeezes – nowhere near the body parts where the word groping would be used appropriately.
I am still furious with all the Democrats who either drove or jumped on the bandwagon to have Al Franken resign. What they did is damage the reputation of a man without any serious review of the allegations, got him to step down which completely short-circuits the investigative process that could have been used on EVERY elected person on either side of the aisle who has settled allegations.
The whole thing is heartbreaking and maddening.
edited
Denali
@LeComte,
As someone with a daughter with relationship problems, I certainly empathize. Try to focus on what is really important, though,rather than the money issues. Make sure that your daughter knows you love her. You may feel that she does not appreciate what you have done for her-she probably does not, but she will need you in the future and she must learn somehow how to not blame others for her mistakes. Try to give her 10 positive comments for every negative that might be perceived as gaslighting.(someone told me this-people hear the criticism and not the praise. Remember that marriage and parenting are the hardest job. I’ll stop now.
Denali
Help, I am in moderation and I fixed my email typo.
Neldob
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: sometimes it is good for the parent or loved one to go to therapy or Alanon or both. Twas very good for me when in that spot.
J R in WV
@PJ:
LGM is a blog, also known as Lawyers, Guns and Money – a blog founded by Robert Farley, a Professor of International Relations at the University of Kentucky’s School of International Relations. It is more progressive than Balloon Juice in some ways.
I comment there some days, other days there’s nothing interesting to me. I have trouble keeping up with B J, really. The front pagers at LGM are great, the commenters vary more than here, of course I use the B-J pie filter.
ETA: Thanks Major^4 !! You and Cleek are great!
Callisto
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
It may seem to fit pretty well, but be careful of armchair diagnoses. Lots of people on the internet will tell you what it is and why because they happen to have anecdotal experience with that one disorder, so everything is made to fit into that particular bin.
A good psychologist can help figure things out; If it is BPD it can likely be handled well with certain therapeutic methods but the family really needs to be a part of it (truth be told this is true as to most every disorder). However, it might be something else; BPD can be a bit of a mimic, and there are many other disorders that cross over with it.
Given what you’ve said so far, it seems that getting her to a diagnosis would be the most difficult part.
LAC
@FlipYrWhig: thank you. What a bullshit post.
Miss Bianca
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: lord, I can’t imagine my parents holding still for that sort of drama. Not that i wasn’t a drama princess – my family nickname, which i hated, was “Sarah Bernhardt” when i got wound up – but even if i may have *thought* those things, i wouldn’t have *said* them.
And if my professorial mentor had said she was disappointed in me, i would have melted into a puddle of shame.
Bill Arnold
@different-church-lady:
Health. If his doctor(s) said “resign, or die”, he would resign, declaring victory. (Backup plan: he would die, assuming the doctors were correct.) (I do not like the man (he gleefully pushes my buttons), but this (declaring victory for health reasons) is the best likely outcome for him IMO.)