Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

Spilling the end game before they can coat it in frankl luntz-approved dogwhistles.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

I also would like a pony to improve my balloon juice experience.

We will not go quietly into the night; we will not vanish without a fight.

Beware of advice from anyone for whom Democrats are “they” and not “we.”

The gop couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

Boeing: repeatedly making the case for high speed rail.

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

How can republicans represent us when they don’t trust women?

I desperately hope that, yet again, I am wrong.

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

Wake up. Grow up. Get in the fight.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / DACA Showdown Today

DACA Showdown Today

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Democratic and Republican congressional leaders are meeting with Trump today about the spending bill as it relates to a DACA fix and Trump’s dumb, racist wall that Mexico is definitely NOT going to pay for; via The Post:

There is a chance of a government shutdown in the next several weeks over the wall and/or DACA.

Immigration is the biggest stumbling block in negotiations about keeping the lights on past Jan. 19, which is next Friday. Republicans say Democrats are holding spending talks hostage to secure a DACA fix, which they’d prefer to consider separately. As he meets with a bipartisan group of lawmakers at the White House later today, both Trump and Democratic leaders think they have the better hand — a recipe for trouble. The likeliest outcome is another short-term agreement.

It would be a mistake to throw the Trumpublicans another lifeline in the form of a short-term agreement, IMO. I think the Democrats should demand passage of a clean DACA bill (no wall, no other bullshit) before they agree to provide a single vote to avoid a shutdown.

Trump created the DACA crisis. The Trumpublicans control the government. They need Democrats because they can’t get their Freedom Caucus crazies to act like responsible adults and pay bills the country has already incurred.

I get that Democrats are the grownups. I understand there’s real pain involved in a shutdown, but there’s a cost to constantly propping these feral toddlers up too. It’s time to call their damn bluff. What do you think?

Reader Interactions

110Comments

  1. 1.

    Yutsano

    I understand there’s real pain involved in a shutdown

    I’m one of those people who would directly feel that pain. Fuck it. DACA renewal needs to be a hill to die in and Washington state unemployment should bridge me through until the lights come back on.

    But I want two months off at least. Let the country figure out that oh yeah we do kinda need the Feds huh?

  2. 2.

    gene108

    There are risks either way.

    But I want to give Trump his wall. I want to specify in the legislation the dimensions of the wall, which must be followed. It will be a huge wall, 1,000 feet high and 1,000 feet under the ground, so no one can tunnel under it, and it will have a moat, filled with sharks that have laser beams on their heads.

    Republican spend so much time putting in poison pills and then saying, we agreed with Democrats and added ‘x’ to the legislation, but on the back end they’d cut ‘y’ or under fund ‘x’.

    I say we give Trump what he wants and more.

  4. 4.

    bbleh

    I don’t care as much about the timing as that (1) not a single Dem in his/her right mind should agree to a single penny for “the wall” — it would be criminal political incompetence — and (2) the Dems raise holy hell about the forcible deportation of children by racist goon squads, beginning with the Salvadorans being sent back to the middle of a civil war.

    At some point, though, you’re right; leverage is no good if you never use it.

  5. 5.

    Ajabu

    I’m in total agreement, Betty. We keep propping them up and getting nothing in return for being the adults. To quote the esteemed Mr. Goldman— Fuckem.

  6. 6.

    Spanky

    @Yutsano: As a Fed there’s a chance that Congress will give you back pay at the end of it. As a fed contractor I have no such expectation. And I say SHUT THE MOFO DOWN! Let the GOP stew in their own scummy juices.

  8. 8.

    Major Major Major Major

    I agree that this is a great hill to die on, especially since R’s can stop the shutdown at any time simply by pulling their heads out of their asses, so we don’t even have moral culpability for any negative fallout from a shutdown.

  9. 9.

    Betty Cracker

    Here we go:

    Throw Trump’s stupid campaign lies back in his face. Bravo.

  10. 10.

    Yarrow

    If the government shuts down I kind of wish it would all shut down. No Social Security checks. Send the military home. I know it’s totally unrealistic, but I think people have no idea just how many people work for or are dependent on the government being open and functioning.

  11. 11.

    The Moar You Know

    Why are Democrats meeting with these people at all? It just gives them cover for whatever fucked-up horrors they’re going to unleash on us anyway.

    They passed the tax bill by themselves, let them pass the budget. By offering DACA for Dem votes, we become complicit in their crimes. Dems should simply introduce a clean DACA bill in the Senate and let the GOP torpedo that. They will anyway. By refusing to participate in the budget talks at all, at which we will get nothing we want no matter what we do, the Republicans are on the hook for failing to pass a DACA bill that they’d never pass anyway and won’t provide one vote for, and on the hook for the government shutdown as well.

    Dems have fucking lost the plot with legislative strategy these days. Not sure what’s up with that.

  13. 13.

    Jeffro

    @Betty Cracker: “Bring a check! Bring a check!” I like it – reminds everyone instantly of the Orange Menace’s inability to tell the truth about anything.

  16. 16.

    boatboy_srq

    Is it just another Internet rumour, or did Lord Dampnut try to encourage Congress to go back to earmarks? Srsly.

  20. 20.

    tobie

    Did someone post that Diane Feinstein released the entire transcript of the Senate Judiciary Committee’s hearing with Glen Simpson, head of Fusion GPS. The document can be found here. Go Diane! That took guts.

  21. 21.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    OT:

    Greg Sargent @ ThePlumLineGS
    Kaboom:
    Feinstein releases the Fusion GPS transcript:

  22. 22.

    Jeffro

    Btw if anyone is interested (or not) here are the top 5 stories right now on Faux Snooze dot com:
    1) North Korean figure skaters (no, really)
    2) Those two texting FBI agents that were having the affair…WERE THEY THE ‘LEAKERS’?
    3) Some NY state Dem who was indicted for misusing/stealing Hurricane Sandy funds
    4) Chris Cuomo using “biased” pro-dem language on CNN
    5) Some porn star who died

    Talk about priorities! That’s certainly better than any ‘top 5’ list I would have going…
    1) Russia investigation – Mueller closing in, Trumpov may take the 5th(!)
    2) Russia investigation – the next likely indictments
    3) 53% of Puerto Rico STILL without power – inexcusable!
    4) All the GOPers who are suddenly, strongly, defending the president* even as he spirals downward – why?
    5) Why does the GOP hate the working class of this country? (op-ed ;)

  26. 26.

    catclub

    @The Moar You Know:

    They passed the tax bill by themselves, let them pass the budget.

    No. If you had just GOP votes on that they would attach all of the poison pills that the Democrats refuse to stand for – defund planned parenthood, for starters.

    I think much mischief was inserted into the tax bill for just this reason.

  27. 27.

    Jeffro

    @Yarrow: Whew…it’s 312 pages of text…I might have to wait for the ‘executive summary’, to be read during ‘executive time’ =)

  29. 29.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    from the MSNBC chyron, it looks like trump has blundered into an argument with Republicans, on camera, during this immigration photo-op. I was in the car and heard him say that they’ll bring up comprehensive immigration reform after the DACA deal. He also said, more or less, he’ll sign whatever “these people” send to him

  30. 30.

    mike in dc

    The optics of this kabuki theater “meeting” on immigration are horrible. Where are the Hispanic Caucus members? It looks like 95% middle aged and elderly white dudes talking about ending chain migration(i.e. family member migration) and the visa “lottery”(which is an attempt to fairly apportion a limited number of visas to a vast pool of qualified applicants) and building a wall in exchange for…restoring DACA and maybe a path to citizenship only for DACA recipients. What a shitshow. I hope the Hispanic caucus raises hell.

  31. 31.

    Big Ole Hound

    Kevin Drum has a good essay this morning stating that the GOP congress is not going to do anything except keep the government running until the election because they know how unpopular everything else is. In his opinion unless Trump pushes the button we are pretty safe from everything else,

  32. 32.

    Another Scott

    As I said in a comment on BooMan’s post at WaMo, the Democrats have a lot of leverage here. The Budget Control Act will start forcing automatic Defense cuts sometime in January, so the Republicans have to pass a real bill (not just another CR) soon. And as Bill McBride at CalculatedRiskBlog has pointed out many times, Republicans have not shut down the government in an Election Year since it blew up in the faces when they did it to Clinton. Of course, the GOP was almost sane then and isn’t now, but they still know the dangers.

    The Democrats should stay strong. There needs to be a DACA/Dreamer fix, a CHIP fix, a debt ceiling fix, a budget, and all the rest very soon (weeks). Whether it all should be in one bill, I can’t say. But giving up leverage without something very big in return is stupid and the post-November-2016 Congressional Democrats have shown (almost) no sign of being stupid.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  33. 33.

    TriassicSands

    @Major Major Major Major:

    …so we don’t even have moral culpability for any negative fallout from a shutdown.

    There’s moral culpability and then there is blame. The extraordinarily ignorant American people, with the assistance of the MSM, assign blame. And then vote. Historically, the GOP has been much more adept at framing issues of blame and reaping the benefits. If the Democrats are going to take a stand on this issue and not die, then they had better have a more effective plan and message than those that have characterized many past issues.

    We’re at a huge disadvantage since Republicans don’t care at all about truth or facts or reality. I agree this is a problem created solely by Trump and Republicans. I support taking a firm stand, but not “dying,” since that would make things worse for everyone but the Trump mob. I wish I could tell the Dems in DC how to play this, but I don’t know how to communicate with people who are terminally ignorant, stupid, or corrupt. That is who elected Trump and who will vote in November.

    I hate Trump and the GOP more every day.

  35. 35.

    Mark Field

    Extending DACA just keeps the hostages alive for the next round of extortion. The Dem position should be immediate citizenship for all Dreamers (and heck, the Salvadorans too). That’s permanent and irrevocable, so neither Trump nor the Rs in Congress can cheat.

  38. 38.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Benjy Sarlin @ BenjySarlin
    Think POTUS was confused, not for clean bill. Pool:
    Feinstein: “What about a clean DACA bill now with a commitment to do comprehensive next?”
    Trump: “I would agree to that”
    McCarthy: but we should have security too
    Trump: that is what she is saying
    All Dems: no. No.

    He doesn’t even know the words. Again.

  39. 39.

    boatboy_srq

    @JMG: @Major Major Major Major: Not a problem, if it weren’t for the fact that Congress has basically ended the earmark model. There would probably be a lot more accomplished, and a lot more productive projects, and possibly renewed respect for Congress for (visibly) getting things done. But does anyone expect that Congress – this Congress in particular – would, after so many campaigns against earmarks, treat the idea seriously and consider readopting it?

  40. 40.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    @Yarrow: When I was still in North Carolina, I used to listen to my local RWNJ radio station on the way home. The host Lockwood Phillips (look him up) used to say CONSTANTLY that “government doesn’t create jobs” and in the same breath would put on a show focused on the fact that OMG “they might be thinking of shutting down Cherry Point” and giving an inordinate amount of time to ACT (Allies for CherryPoints Tomorrow). I got so sick of this total hypocrisy that I eventually e-mailed him and told him to grow the f*ck up saying that “government doesn’t create jobs” considering that the entire economy of Eastern NC relied on Camp Lejeune, Cherry Point NCAS New River and surrounding smaller bases. “How can you say that the government doesn’t create jobs when our entire economy relies on the government you moron”. I am proud to say that he never said “government doesn’t create jobs” again, the entire time I lived in NC.

  41. 41.

    Roger Moore

    I think we should hold Trump to his word on Mexico paying for the wall. We’ll build it when, and only when, he gets Mexico to pay for it. Not a penny until then.

  42. 42.

    ruemara

    I’m a bit behind Server, but I do hope a couple of our frontpagers have some posts on the FUSION GPS transcript. I have it open to read while I do these graphics.

  45. 45.

    Roger Moore

    @Yarrow:

    If the government shuts down I kind of wish it would all shut down.

    I want Mueller’s investigation to continue whether there’s a shutdown or not.

  46. 46.

    Betty Cracker

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Here’s the video. Looks like McCarthy drew the short straw and is serving as Trump’s minder in this meeting.

  47. 47.

    stibbert

    We need funding for CHIP & ACA subsidies, as well as relief for the DACA Dreamers. All of these together. That’s a position that’s worth defending in the face of a government shut-down.

  48. 48.

    cursorial

    @Yarrow: Glad she did it. I see a lot of tweets praising her courage. Just for my edification, is she breaking an actual rule by doing this? Or is this just another ridiculous norm that the Republicans demand adherence to when it’s convenient for them, that release is supposed to be bipartisan or approved by the committee chair?

  51. 51.

    Marcopolo

    Both last week & this morning I told both Claire McCaskill’s & Bill Clay’s offices that I would support them shutting down the gov’t over both DACA & fully funding CHIP. My other big message is not to allow one penny to be cut from Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security after Republicans gave huge tax cuts to the wealthy & Corporations. Next week I’ll probably add something about no infrastructure bill that allows private companies to charge endless fees for using what should be public infrastructure. I mean can you imagine having to put a quarter in your toilet every time you pee or take a dump?

  52. 52.

    kindness

    Betty is right. Democrats need to cut bait if Republicans want to continue to play them.

  55. 55.

    JGabriel

    Betty Cracker @ Top:

    I get that Democrats are the grownups. I understand there’s real pain involved in a shutdown, but there’s a cost to constantly propping these feral toddlers up too. It’s time to call their damn bluff. What do you think?

    I agree. I thought we should have done it back in autumn.

  56. 56.

    ruemara

    @cursorial: Upon reviewing the first few pages, they make it clear this is not a classified hearing. I’m guessing this is just Chuck Grassley being a dick.

  57. 57.

    Leto

    @boatboy_srq: Kevin Drum: Roll Call columnist Patricia Murphy explains, “One of the greatest ironies of Congress’ earmark ban is that earmarks still haven’t gone away. The few that remain have simply gone underground.”

    Sure enough, the Pig Book didn’t go out of business in 2011. Its most recent edition claims that earmarks increased from zero in 2011 to $5.1 billion in 2016. At that rate, in about a decade earmarks will once again hit their 2010 mark of $16.5 billion.

  58. 58.

    VeniceRiley

    I see on Twitter that Senator DiFi is a badass and released the Fusion GPS testimony transcripts. Take that, Grassley, you hack!

  59. 59.

    tobie

    @Jeffro: I didn’t understand your comment about Durbin and Hoyer until I saw the video. They look downright scared. Glad DiFi is showing such guts. This is yet another reminder about why Dems need more women in elected office.

  60. 60.

    Sloane Ranger

    The timing of this meeting is interesting as is the presence of the press throughout. It allows Trump to play the deal-maker bringing together a bi-partisan group to solve a long standing issue and pushes back against the developing narrative that he is non compos mentis.

  62. 62.

    gvg

    It’s a good point that I don’t want Mueller’s probe shut down.
    I believe that essential services have to keep working without pay in a shutdown? Some parts of law enforcement would be in that catagory? I can’t imagine the military in harms way not being paid. I know that each time it hasn’t been the same in detail. One Clinton era shutdown stopped the Feds from processing the FAFSA Financial Aid application processing and it took months to catch up on the backlog as the paper applications were warehoused with no plan and were in no particular order. Also VA student benefits were not paid retroactively one time so we had to rework their aid packages.
    I do think it would help some if people found out how much they do depend on government but I am not sure this would get through to them. they didn’t seem to learn last time and held on to a lot of silly ideas about what wasn’t government.

  65. 65.

    germy

    @Jeffro:

    OT but still: “Hillbilly Elegy” author tied to the Kochs, asked by McConnell to run for OH Senate seat now that Mandel is out.

    They’re desperate for an “aw shucks” guy they can push all the way to the presidency.

  69. 69.

    rikyrah

    @tobie:

    One of the Frontpagers gonna take it?

    I know Maddow and LarryO are pouring over it, and will be reading excerpts this evening.

    Didn’t think Betty Rubble had it in her.

  70. 70.

    Roger Moore

    @ruemara:

    I’m guessing this is just Chuck Grassley being a dick.

    It’s not just generic dickishness. He’s specifically doing it because he knows what’s in that transcript will blow up the Republicans’ narrative about the FBI investigation of Trump/Russia. They’ve been going after the Steele dossier because it’s lurid and they think they can poke just enough holes in it to discredit any investigation that’s derived from it. The last thing they want is anything that defends it and points to other starting points for the investigation. This is all about their attempts to derail Mueller by any means.

  71. 71.

    Humdog

    I do not hate DiFi, but I do think this is a great action to top off her career and retire. I believe she is too conservative for today’s California and I do not think 80+ year olds should be signing up for another six year term. I am excited about Kevin de Leon running in the primary for Senate. But this is a big, good thing she has done and shows her seniority has been useful. I wonder if other Dems on the same committee would have released it? If others were too cowardly, then maybe she should run again.

  72. 72.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Here are a couple of highlights.

    This is going to be big. Adam is working on a post. I may not have much time this afternoon to look through the document.

  74. 74.

    tobie

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): I don’t know how to link to twitter but you might want to look at Greg Sargent’s account. He’s already found two choice bits from the transcript: (1) it was Christopher Steele’s idea to go to the FBI with information he had found out, not GPS; and (2) by the time Steele went to the FBI, they already had evidence corroborating what he was saying from a source inside the Trump campaign. So the FBI’s investigation of the Trump campaign pretty clear predates the so-called Steele dossier.

  75. 75.

    Betty Cracker

    @Sloane Ranger: That’s clearly the aim, but from the snippets I’ve seen, it doesn’t look like Trump is up to the job of pretending to lead this meeting. (Admittedly, I have not seen the whole thing, just clips in my Twitter timeline.)

  78. 78.

    LAO

    @Immanentize:

    “I do not, for one, think that the problem was that the band was down. I think that the problem may have been, that there was a Stonehenge monument on the stage that was in danger of being crushed by a dwarf. Alright? That tended to understate the hugeness of the object.” — David St. Hubbins

  79. 79.

    Immanentize

    @tobie: This whole GPS Fusion thing has involved a lot of Kabuki. Simpson, etc. could have released their own version of everything they said before the comittee. There is no law forbidding witnesses from discussing their own testimony….

    I bet this happened because of the crazy NYTimes article about Simpson…

  84. 84.

    John Steed

    Not just DACA, but TPS as well. The ~300K people who came here from Haiti, El Salvador should be provided permanent residency and a path to citizenship. Enough racist BS. There’s no reason an American citizen child should face either deportation or being separated from their parents. If Democrats can’t make *that* case, they’re hopeless.

    Even with all of DACA and TPS, you’re only talking about one million people out of a population of 320 million. A drop in the bucket.

    That’s a good hill to finally take a stand on.

  85. 85.

    LAO

    @Immanentize: Last month, I was talking to a young prosecutor and I jokingly said “but it goes to 11” within the context of our conversation. He had no idea what I was talking about. 1) I felt really old and 2) I really worry about the kids these days.

  86. 86.

    Jeffro

    @germy:

    [Republicans] are desperate for an “aw shucks” guy they can push all the way to the presidency.

    They’re going to run against…all the damage that other Republicans did. As usual. They’ll describe the problem accurately and then prescribe more of the same horrid ‘solutions’.

  89. 89.

    Humdog

    And now “Justice” department is revoking citizenship for some long time naturalized citizens. Christ, what assholes!

  93. 93.

    trollhattan

    @Major Major Major Major:
    I was disappointed but not completely surprised when she chose to run. My pet peeve has been her rolling over on water policy but there are plenty of other areas of disagreement. (To prove my ageist bona fides, I’d swap her for Boxer in a hot minute.) I don’t think her challengers have a ghost of a chance, so there it is. She best start using RGB’s personal trainer–gonna be a bumpy six years.

  102. 102.

    gene108

    @Immanentize:

    I think it should be like The Wall in Game of Thrones. I want to authorize the Wall to end all Walls. The Mother of all Walls. I want the Earth’s crust to subside because of the weight of this wall. I want weather patterns to change because of this wall.

    This will be wall that will keep people from land crossings of the Southern border. No one can deny, it would not be possible to cross. It will do its job, and do it well.

    What, then is Trump’s problem for not going ahead with building this wall? He got what he wanted. It would be only fair, if he then gave us what we wanted.

  103. 103.

    gene108

    @Humdog:

    I believe she is too conservative for today’s California and I do not think 80+ year olds should be signing up for another six year term.

    The Senate is a helluva drug. People have to be forced (lose race for re-election) out or die in office. I don’t know what it is about being a Senator that is so damn addictive, but people just can’t willingly quit it.

  104. 104.

    rikyrah

    @Humdog:

    And now “Justice” department is revoking citizenship for some long time naturalized citizens. Christ, what assholes!

    Need a link to a story about this happening.

  106. 106.

    cain

    @Immanentize:

    @schrodingers_cat: Wife of Barney Rubble, of course.

    Old adult oriented cartoon called the Flintstones that was sort of modeled after the Honeymooners another really old show starring Jackie Gleason. It’s story of a modern stone age family.

    It’s kind of Simpsons for Boomers. :-) But much more pedestrian. :D

  110. 110.

    a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)

    I am grimly amused by the fact that today’s Google Doodle is in honor of Har Gobind Khorana, immigrant, naturalized US citizen, and Nobel Prize winner. I know they set those up well in advance, but as commentary on the value of immigrants to the US generally, it’s a pretty hard poke in the eye.

    Naturalize the DACA crowd, and the Salvadorans as well. Just for starters.

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