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Technically true, but collectively nonsense

You are here: Home / Simon Out at MSU

Simon Out at MSU

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MSU President Lou Anna Simon resigned last night in the wake of the Nassar sentencing. In the comments yesterday, there was some concern over whether it was right for her to quit or be forced out. I have no such concerns, and since I pretty much agree with Scott Lemieux at LGM, I won’t repeat his arguments here.

Another concern in the comments was Judge Rosemarie Aquilina’s statement that she had signed Nassar’s death warrant. I’d suggest that anyone who’s concerned about judicial overreach watch her entire set of sentencing remarks to understand the context in which she made the statement. Overall, it was the opposite of a thoughtless rant.

Reader Interactions

161Comments

  3. 3.

    Belafon

    I can’t get on twitter at work, or I’d post a link to a tweet about the judges comments, and that they fall right in line with what male jurors have said, and that you don’t hear about male jurors making those comments, so STFU.

  4. 4.

    Immanentize

    I wish I knew more about Nassar’s specific plea deal, but (as a long time defense attorney) it seems to me that the Judge did go too far in a number of ways. But that might have been part of the plea deal. Also, having read the MI victim’s rights statute, I think it allows for certain types of testimony (e.g. victim’s opinion about length of sentence) that the Supreme Court has rejected at least in the death penalty context. Did Nassar have to attend the victim impact testimony?

    So my legal appeal question is, when does shame and denunciation become punishment? It is one of the four (or five) recognized punishment basis. Do people think that the hearing was part of his punishment?

  5. 5.

    Nicole

    He’d already been sentenced to 60 years for child pornography, right? The judge wasn’t saying anything that wasn’t already done to him by the feds.

  6. 6.

    Immanentize

    @Nicole: And, to add, he will spend his time in federal custody (first). That sort of colors my view of the Michigan proceedings. Very very important for community catharsis. Less important for the law end of it all.

  7. 7.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Immanentize: of course it was, and it should have been, and the judge’s comments don’t come close to what black defendants hear routinely.

    For fuck’s sake, we’re lucky the Internet didn’t exist during Nuremberg.

  8. 8.

    Capri

    From what I’ve read, the athletic director should also be leaving. He should have been aware of numerous complaints by students and it appears as if he didn’t take any seriously.

    It seems that Nassar was very personable and people liked him – which prevented them from being able to imagine him as a predator.

  9. 9.

    Immanentize

    @Bobby Thomson: then he has been punished and his prison sentence may be voided. It’s a double jeopardy problem….

    PS. Fun fact — The other US Supreme Court Justices referred to the Nuremburg trials as “Jackson’s little hanging party.”

    ETA. You really do not need to tell me what black defendants hear. I have a pretty good idea.

  10. 10.

    Steeplejack

    Already been jolted by this this morning. My RWNJ brother, an MSU alumnus, has—predictably—been frothing on Facebook: “BS. One of our best presidents taking the hit for the actions of others.” Ugh.

    I agree with Lemieux in the linked piece at LGM:

    You can’t be so essential to the operation of the university to justify that kind of compensation [close to $1 million] and then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ when an institutional failure that massive occurs under your watch, even if you didn’t personally mishandle anything.

  11. 11.

    Belafon

    I’m able to find a few places where people have posted tweets. Part of the reason she went off on him like that is this was in the letter he wrote to the court:

    #LarryNassar’s letter: “The media convinced them that everything I did was wrong and bad. They feel I broke their trust. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.” https://twitter.com/lannadelgrey/status/956214989152489472?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

    LarryNassar’s letter: “… The stories are being fabricated to sensualize this then the AG would only accept my plea if I said what I did was not medical and was for my own pleasure. They forced me to say that or they were going to trial.”
    https://twitter.com/lannadelgrey/status/956215050456436737?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

    He didn’t actually think he did anything wrong.

  12. 12.

    foucault swing voter mistermix

    @Immanentize:

    then he has been punished and his prison sentence may be voided. It’s a double jeopardy problem….

    Child pornography and child rape are two different crimes.

  14. 14.

    Immanentize

    @Steeplejack: I totally agree with Scott L. But the President is not the only problem, just the face of the institution. From what I’ve read, the Board — by it’s own admissions — knew and just let the President handle things. Then they fired her.

  16. 16.

    Immanentize

    @foucault swing voter mistermix: I’m talking about the victim impact statements, not the federal charges. If they were part of the punishment, that can be problematic.

    And how dare you use Foucault in your nym without understanding the first chapter of his “Discipline and Punish?” ?

  17. 17.

    Nicole

    @Immanentize: Generally, I’m not a big one for or against victim impact statements because I’m not sure what they accomplish- I’m skeptical that the convicted is upset about anything other than that he got caught, and I don’t think it should influence sentencing, because I think inherent biases about who the victim and victim’s family (race, ethnicity, religion, education level, etc) can influence in ways that weren’t intended (on top of how they do already, I mean). But, I don’t have a real strong feeling about it.

    That said, in this case, that of sexual abuse of minors by figures in authority, I think it’s important that it get out into the open so that on a larger scale, we as a society grasp how pervasive and how damaging it is. And since a lot of the victims are household names, I think it’s additionally a societal positive, especially for young girls, to know that it happens to famous people too.

    In Nassar’s case, the shame doesn’t matter, because he’s going away for the rest of his life. Now, on the other hand, I think shame will be a fairly large part of the rest of Simon’s life, because, no matter how much $$ she raised for MSU, she’s going to be remembered as the one who ignored an abuse scandal. She’s not likely to get another gig like that. Although, having read her resignation letter, I’m not sure how bad she actually feels about anything other than she had to quit her job.

    This whole thing is filed under, “People are terrible, especially to kids.”

  18. 18.

    Immanentize

    @Belafon: I read that tweetstorm and it early on says this:

    I have never in my life seen a white man say that a white male judge was too tough on a Defendant. Never.

    That is some puro bullshit of the most fake variety. I have spent my career doing just that and have prevailed in various courts on these very issues. Also too, white guy challenging white guy judges.

  22. 22.

    Immanentize

    @Nicole:

    That said, in this case, that of sexual abuse of minors by figures in authority, I think it’s important that it get out into the open so that on a larger scale, we as a society grasp how pervasive and how damaging it is. And since a lot of the victims are household names, I think it’s additionally a societal positive, especially for young girls, to know that it happens to famous people too.

    I completely agree with this.

    In the Oklahoma City bombing trials of both McVeigh and Nichols, the number of live testimony victim impact statements was limited because the prosectors understood that at some point, the presentation of victim impact becomes punishment and spectacle (Foucault reference) itself rather than an aid in sentencing. My concern (and it has been my concern for at least 15 years) is that statutes like the one in Michigan go too far in that balance.

  24. 24.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Immanentize: the impact statements, and his being forced to listen to them, were specifically part of the agreement, in exchange for which he wasn’t taken to trial.

  26. 26.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Immanentize: his habeas petition is after he exhausts remedies in a state not known for laxity. And on a federal constitutional issue you can bet sixth circuit law will be cited.

  27. 27.

    Yarrow

    I encourage everyone to watch Aly Raisman’s interview on The Today Show this morning. She is such a strong woman. Calls out the US Olympic Committee and others. She’s not letting those in power off the hook.

  28. 28.

    Gin & Tonic

    I don’t want to get into victim shaming, but I’m just trying to understand how so many parents seemed to accept a male doctor being alone in a room with their daughter. I say this as the father of two now-grown daughters, one of whom was a competitive gymnast (with all the attendant injuries and visits to orthopedists.)

  29. 29.

    mai naem mobile

    I am guessing he will either commit suicide or be killed or seriously injured in prison. I still don’t understand how this went on for so long without being discover ed.

  30. 30.

    Immanentize

    @Bobby Thomson: So when you said, “Good luck in the 6th Circuit” you were referring to a speculative federal habeas petition after the Michigan appeals courts hear any issues and after the pre requisite state habeas proceedings in at least two courts for exhaustion purposes and after a federal district court habeas proceeding and decision that is appealed to the sixth circuit maybe something like eight or ten years from now? Sorry if I misunderstood that line of thinking.

  32. 32.

    Immanentize

    @Gin & Tonic: I’ve wondered a lot about the parents myself. I drafted some comments in that direction and deleted them. Some victims said he abused them while the parents were on the room! It all came down to — am I certain my son would tell me he was being abused? Kids for years have been trained to report…. But still, shame and threats are powerful coersives. The Immp and I talked about this case and I am almost certain he would tell me. Still….

  33. 33.

    Barbara

    @Immanentize: I agree with this. I thought some of her remarks came close to the border of retribution, but then I realized after doing some research that he had agreed to a minimum, which she ended up imposing (she didn’t make the minimum higher), so, basically, the hearing made no difference in his sentence, but it definitely gave a forum to the victims, most importantly, and it should be like a flare in the sky for any institution or community that takes the path of least resistance and ignores girls (or boys) who allege mistreatment by people in positions of trust and power. I still don’t like some of her comments, but nothing she said tainted the process. Fairness to Simon is the least of my worries, although I thought her comments that she was somehow not to blame because she didn’t know the details of the Title IX case against a sports medicine specialist were outrageous, in the way that cheesy neutrality is an outrageous response to real tragedy. Nassar continued to see patients at MSU for 16 months while he was under criminal investigation for child pornography or sexual assault related allegations. They assumed, one and all, that this doctor was virtuous and his accusers were not.

  34. 34.

    Steeplejack

    @Immanentize:

    She wasn’t fired; she resigned.

    From the Washington Post‘s story:

    Simon’s success as a leader had earned her support from the board of trustees, most of whom stood by her during the Nassar scandal, and from many faculty members, who cautioned against a rush to judgment in the court of public opinion.

    But the board members definitely are trying to protect their phony baloney jobs.

    On Wednesday evening, both U.S. senators from Michigan, Debbie Stabenow (D) and Gary Peters (D), called for Simon’s resignation. [. . .]

    Michigan’s state House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved a measure Wednesday calling for Simon’s removal. [. . .]

    On Tuesday, the NCAA told Michigan State it was interested in potentially investigating how athletics officials responded to concerns about Nassar.

    Hundreds of students had said they would march to the administration building Friday to demand Simon’s resignation. Last week, a unanimous vote by the Associated Students of Michigan State University condemned the board of trustees and administration for their handling of sexual assault, saying the institution’s leaders had failed them, and that change in leadership was necessary.

  35. 35.

    Barbara

    @Immanentize: Read the Detroit Free Press article on the complaints that were made to MSU. Some kids first complained to their parents, and there were parents who tried to intervene but they were all somehow persuaded that nothing real had happened. It’s almost unbelievable, except that it really happened.

  36. 36.

    laura

    @Immanentize: Nasser made clear in a letter to the judge that he was uncomfortable having to listen to the victim statements, and spent little to no time looking up, mostly head in hands. So he may believe that it is, in fact, a punishment. The opportunity to speak by 150+ of his victims is going to be very important and helpful to these women, their families, the public and the criminal justice system. If you’ve the stomach for it, I would recommend that you listen to one women’s gut wrenching statement -and it’s linked on the LG&M post what is a little girl worth. The power of her words and her poise in delivering them is nothing short of dropping a house -and not just on Nasser.
    One women related that she reported the abuse to her parents. They didn’t believe her, and she was punished for lying about that great doctor -and still was forced to endure his abuse. Later, when the truth was revealed, her father could not bear the anguish and committed suicide.
    Nasser’s discomfort and inconvenience troubles me not one iota.

  37. 37.

    Immanentize

    @Barbara: Thanks. See, that is what scares me as a parent. I know my son s not a liar — in big ways at least. But could I be convinced he was mistaken? Only if I was isolated from all other victim parents because, gossip.

  40. 40.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Immanentize: no, more that sixth circuit law is persuasive on federal law in courts in those states.

    As for your request for a link, are you sealioning? There have been literally hundreds of articles.

  44. 44.

    MomSense

    @Immanentize:

    I think it is less about thinking your child is a liar and more about it being preferable to believe your child made it up than to acknowledge that your child was abused. The desire to deny is strong.

  46. 46.

    Roger Moore

    @Adria McDowell:

    OT: Chelsea Manning has worse decision making skills than my 5 year old. And she wants to be a Senator?

    No. She wants to be a spoiler to help the Republican get elected.

  49. 49.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Immanentize: But there’s a big difference between, say, a pre-school situation (living in New England, I’m well aware of the Amirault case) and girls old enough to be competing in the Olympics.

    I’ll drop this line now, but just have to end it by saying that I spent plenty of time in orthopedists’ offices with my daughter, and never let her be alone with a doctor. The (vast?) majority of doctors don’t want that either.

  52. 52.

    rikyrah

    I admit…I’m still at the point of the raised eyebrow at Flynn:
    1. taking a meeting with the FBI – WITHOUT A LAWYER
    2. NOT TELLING ANYONE IN THE WHITE HOUSE ABOUT IT!

    DA HAIL?

    The arrogance of this bunch.

  54. 54.

    laura

    @laura: and Immanentize, I understand, in reference to the OKC bombing that there’s a point reached where impact statements become punishment or spectacle -or lose impact through repetition . Here, how would allowing some and denying others their opportunity to speak their truth to power not cause further harm? Nasser agreed in his plea to concede that victims could make their statements and then bitched and whinged in his letter to the judge, in his statement to the court, and his continued, fervent belief that he did nothing wrong.

  56. 56.

    rikyrah

    Gates has gotten himself a REAL D.C. LAWYER. One, who earned his chops on Watergate.
    Someone who is going to tell him – SAVE YOURSELF. – In Washington speak, of course.
    He saw who showed up to his legal fundraiser – nobody.

  58. 58.

    schrodingers_cat

    Can some reporter covering the WH commit journalism and ask the President why exactly does his administration want to slash legal immigration. Let them defend their xenophobia and bigotry on the record.

    ETA: This is T’s poison pill that will kill any DACA negotiations.

  63. 63.

    Dog Dawg Damn

    @Belafon: people are making a strawman. The worst thing she said was that she wished he’d suffer the same as the girls did, at the hands of many people. In other words, that he would be raped. It absolutely is over the line. This is the most ridiculous disagreement because one side is completely ignoring that statement and painting her detractors as being upset she was merely harsh.

  66. 66.

    Brachiator

    @Immanentize:

    But still, shame and threats are powerful coersives.

    So is trust and authority.

    He’s a doctor, he knows what he’s doing. Must be a reason for whatever he does.

    He cares about our kid and really wants to help her be the best.

    We’ve come to know him. He is like one of the family. He would never harm our child.

    He acts like a nice guy.

  67. 67.

    Nicole

    @Immanentize:

    I’ve wondered a lot about the parents myself. I drafted some comments in that direction and deleted them. Some victims said he abused them while the parents were on the room! It all came down to — am I certain my son would tell me he was being abused? Kids for years have been trained to report…. But still, shame and threats are powerful coersives. The Immp and I talked about this case and I am almost certain he would tell me. Still….

    One of the articles I read talked about this- that for gymnasts and figure skaters, the window of career is so short that the athletes get frightened to say anything because they don’t want to end their own career. And, as I remember, as a teenager, it’s hard to picture the decades of life still ahead.

    And the article also noted that there’s terrible pressure on the kids from some of the families- maybe not obvious, and not what the parents intend, but many of these families sell their homes, or mortgage them, move to be near a coach, all so the child can pursue being an athlete. The entire family becomes based around the child’s athletic life, and then for the child to look at giving it up by calling out a top trainer or coach for abuse? Not to mention that the kids who make it to the world class level really want it for themselves, too. That’s a lot of pressure on all sides. I wouldn’t want to be a kid with that on my shoulders. Add to that the parents aren’t likely professional athletes themselves and they don’t know what’s normal and what’s not- they are learning how to parent a teen athlete as they go, with no chance to go back and fix mistakes.

    My son does some professional acting and my husband and I are constantly threading the needle of encouraging it, because he’s quite good at it, and restricting it so that he still has a childhood. And we’re probably going to have to pass up some big opportunities for him. Which sucks, because the more he does now, the easier it will be for him when he’s older, and yet doesn’t suck, because his safety and security comes before everything else, and child performers and athletes are expected to navigate an adult world without the life skills gained from simply growing up. But it’s a narrow eye to thread, and without knowing more details, I can’t point fingers at the parents for what happened to their kids at the hands of a coach or doctor.

    (For the record, all of my kid’s on-set experiences have been good ones so far- everyone has been incredibly kind. We’re trying to keep it that way.)

  68. 68.

    WaterGirl

    @MomSense: Not a mom, but I cannot imagine how the denial instinct could be stronger than the Mother Bear instinct to protect your child.

  69. 69.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Bobby Thomson: Immanentize, I should apologize and correct my earlier statement. Just goes to show, you can’t rely on reporters to report all the details correctly. His plea agreement apparently provided that seven of 125 victims would be allowed to present their statements orally in open court, but the judge allowed any of them who wanted an opportunity to take it.

    I think he could get a resentencing based on the fact that this trial involved only three victims, but I don’t think the result would be materially different.

    I still can’t get over that he thought no one would challenge the fact that his go-to diagnosis was digital penetration. I can’t get over the fact that so many didn’t.

  72. 72.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Belafon:

    Given his bullshit letter, he is going to attack his plea on an “ineffective assistance” claim while talking about duress, as well. If he’s black and poor, it goes nowhere, but as a technical white guy with money, I estimate a 40% chance of success.

  73. 73.

    Roger Moore

    @Barbara:

    If that is Chelsea Manning’s goal, she lives in the wrong state.

    Remember that Maryland has a Republican governor, so getting a Republican elected at the state level is not impossible, especially if the Democrats are divided and angry at each other.

  75. 75.

    Bobby Thomson

    @opiejeanne: she said that if the Eighth Amendment didn’t prohibit cruel and unusual punishment, she would sentence him to have others do to him what he did to his victims. I agree that was an inappropriate thing for a judge to say, but also don’t think she will or should be disciplined for it. She probably gets a scolding in an appellate opinion but the sentence is upheld because the record supports it.

  77. 77.

    Barbara

    @Immanentize: Regarding your questions: the plea deal was a minimum 40 year sentence and that’s what she imposed. If she had imposed a higher minimum, he could have backed out of the deal and insisted on trial. There will be no appeal because she followed the plea agreement, and my guess is that she knew that’s what she would do and realized that gave her a lot of latitude in how to run the hearing.

    @Nicole: The other thing to remember in all of these allegations is that at the time they were made, the individual making them, their parents and even the people receiving the reports did not know about any other allegations against Nassar. These were individuals in different sports with different coaches. And this is why it’s so important to follow up even single instances of abuse, because repetition is the norm, and no one is going to abuse a kid right in front of you (although Nassar came close). The failure to collect allegations so that someone might realize that even if one might be a little sketchy when you get to two or three from independent sources, there is something there that needs to be reviewed.

  78. 78.

    rikyrah

    Trump’s pick moves the CFPB away from its core mission
    01/24/18 10:02 AM
    By Steve Benen

    …………………………………

    Mr. Mulvaney made clear that under his direction, the consumer bureau would be more reluctant to target companies without overwhelming evidence of wrongdoing and suggested that the effect on a business should be weighed more heavily when considering cracking down on potential consumer abuses. […]

    Mr. Mulvaney also said that the bureau would introduce more quantitative rigor in determining which companies to target for enforcement, a move sure to be welcomed by banks and financial trade groups that have complained about the agency’s enforcement approach.

    “We are government employees,” Mulvaney wrote. “We don’t just work for the government, we work for the people. And that means everyone: those who use credit cards, and those who provide those cards; those who take loans, and those who make them; those who buy cars, and those who sell them. All of those people are part of what makes this country great.”

    Or put another way, the OMB chief appears to be confused. He’s leading an agency that is supposed to have a sole focus on the financial interests of consumers – again, it’s literally right there in the name – and expanding that focus to include everyone else, including those who may be actively working against consumers’ interests.

    Worse, we don’t have to wait to see the manifestation of Mulvaney’s regressive vision for the CFPB. Slate’s Jordan Weissmann explained yesterday, “Last week, the CFPB dropped a lawsuit in Kansas against four payday lenders without any explanation, other than a weak assurance that it would continue investigating the case. Meanwhile, International Business Times reports today that Mulvaney stealthily closed an investigation into a South Carolina-based payday lender, World Acceptance Corporation, which had previously donated to his campaigns.”

    That’s really just a sampling. Last week, the current CFPB chief also announced plans to scrap Obama-era safeguards imposed on payday lenders.

  79. 79.

    gene108

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I don’t want to get into victim shaming, but I’m just trying to understand how so many parents seemed to accept a male doctor being alone in a room with their daughter. I say this as the father of two now-grown daughters, one of whom was a competitive gymnast (with all the attendant injuries and visits to orthopedists.)

    From what I’ve read at Deadspin, the whole infrastructure of having to get into the Olympics was set-up to minimize parental involvement, after 2000.

    They took a bunch of adolescent girls, stuck them at a training facility outside of Houston Texas, and most of their interaction was with USAG coaches, who are verbally and emotionally abusive, and had ridiculously strict rules on things like diet.

    Anybody saying “hi, how are you feeling?” “Oh, your hurt, I’ll talk to the coaches to have you take some rest”, would seem like the bestest friend in the whole world.

    USAG and USOC really need to be hauled up.

    They looked at how popular Nadia Comăneci was, so when her coach defected they hired him, and let him run the place and didn’t question how he did things, and how popular Marry-Lou Retton was and how popular the 1996 Magnificent Seven were and how much money the latter two were able to make, and they wanted more and more to keep up that level of success and money.

    And if your a kid, with the ability to get to the Olympics, and parents, who have sacrificed, so your daughter has a shot, you either work in this shitty system or you sit at home. I think there’s a lot of “I sacrificed so much, so we have to do what we have to do” to get to the Olympics from both the gymnasts and parents.

  81. 81.

    rikyrah

    The awkward question for Team Trump: ‘How do you define collusion?’
    01/25/18 08:40 AM—UPDATED 01/25/18 08:53 AM
    By Steve Benen

    …………………………….

    REPORTER: The president has said repeatedly there was no collusion between the campaign and Russia. Can you define what he means when he says ‘collusion’? Is he talking about meetings between officials? Is he talking about information-exchanging hands? What does that mean?

    SANDERS: Look, I think the accusation against the president is that he had help winning the election, and that’s simply untrue. The president won because he was the better candidate, because he worked harder, because he had a message that America actually cared about and believed in, and came out in a historic fashion and supported and voted for him.

    For now, let’s put aside the odd campaign-related boasts – if Trump were really such a tremendous candidate, he probably wouldn’t have lost the popular vote by nearly 3 million ballots – and focus on the substance of Sanders’ answer.

    “I think the accusation against the president is that he had help winning the election, and that’s simply untrue.” But is it? Trump had help from Russia, he knew he had help from Russia, he publicly asked for help from Russia, at times he even celebrated the help he received from Russia while it was happening.

    In context, I’m not sure Sanders was really trying to answer the question yesterday, but if she was, she apparently set the “collusion” bar at a level the White House may find troubling.

    The fact remains that “collusion” is far more of a political term than a legal one, so Trump World’s preoccupation with the word – and its reluctance to define it – isn’t especially helpful.

    That said, I often find myself thinking about something House Intelligence Committee Ranking Member Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) said several weeks ago: “The Russians offered help. The campaign accepted help. The Russians gave help. And the president made full use of that help.”

  83. 83.

    Kay

    “How can you control feelings?” Rep. Patrick Meehan asked Lauren Mayk, a reporter for NBC 10 in Philadelphia, on Wednesday.
    The congressman meant the question to be rhetorical, but he may actually need it answered.
    The New York Times reported Saturday that Meehan, a Republican who represents a heavily gerrymandered swing district outside Philadelphia, used taxpayer funds to settle a complaint from a former staffer who said he professed romantic desires toward her and then retaliated against her when she rejected them.

    It’s mean but I love this story. After a decade of listening to the manly-men of the Right smear everyone to the Left of Barry Goldwater as some sort of emotional wreck I love how all they talk about now is what’s “in their hearts” and their feelings!

    Look into their HEARTS, people. Ignore their gross behavior and just really drill down into who they REALLY are because they are BETTER than you think! Better even than they appear to any rational observer who does not personally know what’s in their hearts. Much better. Inside, where it counts.

  84. 84.

    Immanentize

    @Bobby Thomson: That’s the detail I could never find. Thank you! I did see it reported that

    The plea agreement also said that all 125 of those women and girls would have the opportunity to make statements to the court if they desired to do so.

    But that is just a restatement on MI law. Prosecutors put that stuff in all the time to make them look more witness friendly….

    I may have handled his sentencing differently if I were the defense attorney — especially after he wrote the letter complaining g of mental health issues. And learning that he was being “treated” for mental health issues which in jail usually means one thing — meds. Which is why the discussion of his affect at the hearing may be completely misplaced.
    I have represented many many people who have done very very bad things. But no one like Nassar — he had a bunch of money.

  85. 85.

    tobie

    @Roger Moore: As a Maryland resident, I count my lucky stars that the state has closed primaries and doesn’t allow same-day registration. Otherwise we might have a ratfvcking operation. Manning’s candidacy is going nowhere.

  86. 86.

    gene108

    @rikyrah:

    Forget who posted this yesterday and in what thread, but it basically said “you don’t want to rely on the government, because when we (Republicans) are in charge we will use the program to hurt you because we hate you”, as a reason to never expand government activity to protect the public in anyway.

    Sadly the commentor is not wrong.

  87. 87.

    Yarrow

    @Adria McDowell: Ugh. Made me look and wish I hadn’t! I wonder if someone will report Lucien Wintrich for posting pictures of naked people on Twitter. I have no idea what Twitter’s rules are but people seem to get in trouble rather innocuous things. Seems like photos like that might also be considered unacceptable.

  88. 88.

    rikyrah

    NONE DARE CALL IT COLLUSION

    ………………..

    We know that Russian spies approached the Trump campaign offering assistance in the election multiple times. At least twice, Russians dangled the lure of “dirt” on Hillary Clinton, including stolen emails, and both times, Trump campaign officials (George Papadopoulos and Donald Trump, Jr.) expressed interest. Trump, Jr. was particularly enthusiastic about the idea of cooperating with the Russians, and shortly after he welcomed Russian spies to Trump tower for a meeting about “dirt” on Hillary Clinton, he coordinated messaging with Wikileaks, which operated last summer and fall as a cutout for Russian hackers.

    After repeatedly communicating to Russia (in public and in private) that they welcomed interference in the election, Trump and his aides cast public doubt on whether the saboteurs were Russians at all. When Trump went on to win the election after benefiting from this interference, members of his inner circle, through Michael Flynn, secretly connived with Russia to subvert the countermeasures the American government had undertaken as penalties for Russia’s interference.

  91. 91.

    Mike in DC

    Not a lot of room to go at Cardin from the left–top 5 most liberal senator, pro net neutrality, voted against fisa 702 reauthorization, etc–but I’m sure the attempt will be made.

  92. 92.

    Chyron HR

    @Roger Moore:

    Maybe, but surely hanging out with nazis would cause Manning to bleed SOME support with the “antifas who brag about all the nazis they would punch if they’d ever actually punched a nazi (or bothered to vote against them)” wing of the Twitter left.

  93. 93.

    Roger Moore

    @Barbara:
    I can buy that Manning isn’t going to succeed- 2018 strikes me as a bad year to try ratfucking a Democratic incumbent in a blue state- but the general goal of ratfucking is still a plausible one. Of course I can also see how it would be more attractive to an attention seeking clown than to a traditional political operative.

  94. 94.

    Kay

    I’ll say the same thing I said with the Penn State tragedy. Child abuse isn’t a “football culture” or a “religious culture” and it can happen in places that are NOT male-dominated, like juvenile detention centers that are run and staffed by women, as happened in Texas. It happens in abusive cultures, and those pop up everywhere. If there’s a set of common indicators we don’t know them yet.

    This is my opinion but I think people should move the lens OUT, not in. Don’t grab a particular set of facts and attribute child abuse to that set of facts, because there’s an example of an abusive entity or culture or organization with a different set.

    Get rid of “football culture” and it’ll pop up in women’s gymnastics. Get rid of abusive priests who can’t marry and you’ll find abusive pastors who can. Put women in charge of juvenile detention centers and if those women accept or promote a crap abusive culture you’ll get abused kids.

  95. 95.

    Barbara

    @gene108: I don’t know, but I think if someone is telling you that the answer to any question is to be more like Communist Romania, you probably need to reexamine your goals.

  97. 97.

    Immanentize

    @Kay: I think you found your “set of common indicators”: Isolated power and a position of trust and authority over children wherever that might be. Including the home.

  98. 98.

    Barbara

    @Gin & Tonic: That’s not actually clear, but if that is the case, it’s probably because only relatively few, very highly ranked gymnasts, were ever invited to the training camp. But we will probably never know the full extent of his abuse.

  99. 99.

    Roger Moore

    @Yarrow:

    I wonder if someone will report Lucien Wintrich for posting pictures of naked people on Twitter.

    They have the ability to report the tweet built right in. I just reported it for containing a “sensitive image”, and you can too if you want.

  100. 100.

    Bobby Thomson

    Defendant also claims that the court made biased and hostile comments at sentencing. Sentencing is the time for comments against felonious, antisocial behavior recounted and unraveled before the eyes of the sentence. At that critical stage of the proceeding when sentencing is levied, the law vindicated, and the grievance of society and the victim redressed, the language of punishment need not be tepid.

    People v. Antoine, 194 Mich. App. 189 (1992).

  101. 101.

    opiejeanne

    @rikyrah: Didn’t he lose the popular vote by at least 7million votes. I’ve forgotten the actual total now that voted for other candidates.

  102. 102.

    Roger Moore

    @Just One More Canuck:

    Other than for purity pony or ratfucking reasons, why would anyone vote for Chelsea Manning?

    What more reason do they need? But what’s probably more of the goal is that some of the purity ponies who vote for Manning in the primary will refuse to vote for Cardin in the general because Manning didn’t win the primary.

  103. 103.

    Roger Moore

    @Chyron HR:
    Hanging out with Nazis will only hurt Manning if anyone bothers to report on it in the media the purity ponies pay attention to.

  104. 104.

    Mnemosyne

    @Immanentize:

    One of the young women told her parents what had happened. They punished her for lying about that nice Dr. Larry.

    When the truth came out, her father committed suicide because he couldn’t get over his guilt at not having believed her.

  105. 105.

    gene108

    @Mike in DC:

    Not a lot of room to go at Cardin from the left–top 5 most liberal senator, pro net neutrality, voted against fisa 702 reauthorization, etc–but I’m sure the attempt will be made.

    Has he made more money than minimum wage at any time in his life? Bourgeoisie, who must be held to account.

    Has he accepted campaign contributions greater than $27? Corrupt puppet of Big Evil Corps.

    Are Maryland’s public colleges and universities free? He doesn’t care about the working class.

    Does he want to destroy private for profit healthcare companies? Sell out to big insurance. He maybe for single payer, but that’s not what a lot of liberal-y liberals want. They want profit making entities destroyed.

    There’s probably more, which may veer into chem trails, anti-vax lunacy, etc.

  106. 106.

    NorthLeft12

    @Immanentize: No, the board did not fire her. She resigned, probably with a nice parachute too. She also never admitted any personal failing in how MSU reacted to this. The board fully supported her until the very end. Only one trustee [Mitch Albom] was calling for her to be fired. They just gave her a raise a few weeks ago if I remember correctly.

  108. 108.

    Roger Moore

    @Kay:

    It happens in abusive cultures, and those pop up everywhere.

    I would take one step further: it happens in authoritarian cultures. An environment in which authority figures are not to be questioned is fertile ground for all kinds of abuse.

  109. 109.

    gene108

    @Gin & Tonic:

    The majority of his victims were not at Bela Karolyi’s prison camp.

    Just from my understanding of what I read at Deadspin, he was well connected to the gatekeepers at USAG, who decide, who makes it or not, so you either went with the system and the people in it or you were out.

    Only other thing I read is that, when he was actually being a doctor examining patients and recommending treatment, and not molesting them, he was actually good at his job. The treatments he proscribed actually helped patients heal.

    I think that gave him a level of professional respect from his peers. EDIT: And parents, and other officials. Girl comes in with ‘x’ injury, and he sets it right, when other doctors could not fully set it right.

    I don’t know enough to give a better explanation. I can just speculate.

  110. 110.

    Immanentize

    @NorthLeft12: When Presidents of major universities who have brought in millions of dollars in donations “resign,” it is because they are asked to. Presidents of Universities not asked to resign (aka fired) either move on or retire. When a Board asks for your resignation (aka fires you) you have two choices: negotiate a soft exit and “resign”, or start a huge public fight with the Board (see, University of Virginia and President Sullivan). Yes she resigned, because, as the old joke goes: “You can’t fire me, I quit!”

  112. 112.

    Nicole

    @WaterGirl:

    Not a mom, but I cannot imagine how the denial instinct could be stronger than the Mother Bear instinct to protect your child.

    The Mother Bear instinct is a myth. Parenting is a learned behavior, like many other things. Another learned behavior is respect for authority. The Simpsons did a very funny episode about the Milgram Experiment, but when you think about what the Milgram Experiment revealed about our tendency to obey authority, it’s kind of frightening.

  113. 113.

    Just One More Canuck

    @Roger Moore: I cant imagine this being any threat to Cardin, either in the primary or the general. Obviously, this is just a publicity stunt by her. trying to find some grift to cash in on

  114. 114.

    Mnemosyne

    @Immanentize:

    I don’t know. That’s up to you.

    I’m not going to repeat my rant from yesterday about how the system is screwing over a friend of mine who had the temerity to report that a guy on the El train exposed himself to her, but I will say that I’m happy to see this evidence of the system eventually working and don’t have a lot of patience with quibbles about the judge’s words. And I’m going to leave it at that.

  116. 116.

    Immanentize

    @Roger Moore: So he did the right thing and thereby compounded his daughter’s victimization and loss?

    I’m not trying to be difficult, I really don’t know what to think about that father. How horrible? Jump fucker? Compassion? Contempt? Something else?

  118. 118.

    Yarrow

    @Immanentize: It’s up to you to decide how you feel about the father. No one else can tell you how to feel. All of those responses are understandable given the awfulness of this situation and the guilt the father must have felt once everything came out.

  119. 119.

    Kay

    @Roger Moore:

    The good news is cultures can be changed. We’ve seen it with bullying in schools. Just over the course of my childrens (3 of whom are grown) tenure in schools bullying went from something that was accepted as “this is the shitty way kids treat one another so suck it up, weakling” to something that is actively addressed as unacceptable. Kids disapprove of bullying now, they will ostracize a bully, and when that happens it’s a new norm. This thing that we were told was inherent – its’ Lord of the Flies- they’re mean! That’s how they are! – was really just a matter of making it clear to them that they can’t treat one another so bad in THIS place during THIS time.

    Better culture! We grew! We’re capable of that.

  120. 120.

    Roger Moore

    @Roger Moore:
    On a more complete note, a huge part of what makes abusers like Dr. Nassar so evil is that they’re able to manipulate those around them into being complicit in the abuse: parents convinced their children are liars, and victims convinced they’re overreacting to something normal. All that stuff being done to hide the original abuse creates a whole second form of victimization. It’s awful that a father was convinced his daughter was lying to him about the abuse, but it’s well to remember that other parents believed their children and reported Nassar without anything happening as a result.

  121. 121.

    WaterGirl

    @Yarrow: Your reply to Imm seems a bit condescending, though I am sure you didn’t intend it that way.

    You are taking his comment too literally – it seems to me that Imm is trying to start a conversation about his (understandingly) mixed responses to all of this, perhaps as a way to sort out his feelings. It’s complicated.

  123. 123.

    Immanentize

    @WaterGirl: Yes, this. But now I have to go do some actual work — although this discussion has been very useful in my work life. So I will say I was working all morning. Thank you all.

    Two years ago today I was one of the lawyers that won a case in the US Supreme Court about juvenile life without parole sentences. So this sentencing stuff is right there in my wheel house.

  124. 124.

    Barbara

    @Mnemosyne: I don’t know if he was a coward but arguably he ended up being more concerned over himself and his status as a parent than over the impact of the abuse on his daughter. His death left her with more heartbreak and less support. On the other hand, he might have had longstanding issues with depression and this just pushed him over the edge. It’s hard to judge from so far away.

  125. 125.

    ? Martin

    @Roger Moore:

    On a more complete note, a huge part of what makes abusers like Dr. Nassar so evil is that they’re able to manipulate those around them into being complicit in the abuse

    Since I raised this during the Sandusky disaster, I will repeat here that universities are particularly vulnerable to this since the administration is largely pulled from academics rather than from professionals that have been long trained to understand responsibilities inherent in such a position of authority, and on speaking for and acting on behalf of an institution. I train those people all the time and it’s exhausting. Some academic in their 50s gets appointed to a senior leadership role and has as much clue about the professional responsibilities of the position as Trump has of the responsibilities of being president. This showed up again in the assessment following the VATech shooting and will show up again and again.

    Universities are structured to be responsible for virtually every aspect of a student’s safety. We volunteered for that role because it brought benefits to the institution – but it also brings a litany of responsibilities that are unique among institutions in the US, that aren’t clearly defined by the law, and that people that haven’t carried that responsibility throughout their professional careers don’t recognize until it’s in the Indy Star, or the NYT, or splashed across every news report. This will keep happening over and over and over again. Universities aren’t responding to these events. They act like it’s not their responsibility until the public very vocally reminds them that they see things differently. It’s just not getting through.

  126. 126.

    Seanly

    judicial overreach? Don’t judges have a pretty wide latitude to say whatever they want in their court? Also, fuck this Nassar guy for daring to imply that this was all the work of uppity women for ganging up on a poor innocent doctor just doing his duty or whatever the fuck his letter was saying. Charlie Pierce said it well, but I think was too nice in his SI piece – all the enablers should be lined up & shot. And I’m against the death penalty usually.

  127. 127.

    Mnemosyne

    @Barbara:

    I’m sorry I got shouty with you yesterday but, as I said, I’m watching an example of how our system fails sexual assault victims play out right in front of my eyes, and I’m feeling pretty shouty about it. There needs to be a better balance.

  128. 128.

    ? Martin

    @Kay:

    The good news is cultures can be changed.

    True, but so far the situation is still being addressed as isolated failures, not a structural shortcoming of how universities operate. Look at Linda Katehi after the Occupy incident at UC Davis. We learned nothing from that. I don’t think we learned anything from MSU or from Penn State. There were some changes after VATech, but we also see a bunch of things that were put in place having reverted since then – mainly around gun policy.

  130. 130.

    Kay

    @Roger Moore:

    Absoutely. It’s a bad culture and it spreads. I had an abusive 5th grade teacher and she would hold this one boy up to ridicule and I would just squirm with shame. I knew it was bad but I was scared of her and worse I’m 10 so I have this expanded notion of my own power, like kids do, where I imagined if I said something it would be like a movie and there would be a dramatic change. She was widely fucking admired as “tough”- the classroom was a fucking nightmare for me I was so conflicted and ashamed, and if it was bad for me imagine HIM. It’s bad for everyone. It poisons the whole place.

  131. 131.

    ? Martin

    @Mnemosyne: People aren’t being shouty enough. It’s obvious given that millions of women marching around the country aren’t even deserving of a mention on the evening news that its going to take more than that. I would support women holding a general strike at this point – shut the country down until you are heard. I’m dead serious.

  132. 132.

    efgoldman

    @Barbara:

    Fairness to Simon is the least of my worries, although I thought her comments that she was somehow not to blame because she didn’t know the details of the Title IX case against a sports medicine specialist were outrageous

    Perhaps she, Ken Starr and the doofus from Penn State ought to open an education consulting business.
    They could bring in Cardinal Dolan as a consultant.

  133. 133.

    ? Martin

    @efgoldman: I do. The upside to someone like Trump is that he’s identifying lots of problems that have long been problems but haven’t been big enough problems to actually deal with. He’s making them big enough that something might actually come from it.

    If we had a Jewish candidate in 2020, the hate would be so loud and so unfiltered thanks to Trump that it would be undeniable that there was a national bias. How long did it take the political press to finally start calling Trump a racist? It only happened because it was so bad, there were so many examples, that it became undeniable. That’s not to say the candidate could win in that environment, but it’d be different than the unspoken, unacknowledged gender bias that Clinton faced. Pulling it into the open at least changes the dynamics.

  134. 134.

    Brachiator

    @Roger Moore:

    I would take one step further: it happens in authoritarian cultures. An environment in which authority figures are not to be questioned is fertile ground for all kinds of abuse.

    I don’t think this is true at all.

    There are tons of stories about how predators “groom” victims. This often involves isolating them, gaining their trust, making them feel special or that they and the predator are sharing some special and secret relationship.

  135. 135.

    Brachiator

    @? Martin:

    I would support women holding a general strike at this point – shut the country down until you are heard. I’m dead serious.

    When has there ever been a successful general strike in the US?

  138. 138.

    Nicole

    @Kay: That’s so good to hear about school culture changing over the course of your kids’ educational journeys, and to think that it may become a nationwide thing. My kid’s school is VERY focused on social development, and I am absolutely gobsmacked at how kind his class of 2nd graders are to each other. So different from when I grew up. I was frequently the student the music teacher, Mean Mrs. Hawke, singled out to humiliate in front of the class (I’m sure she’d dead now; she was no spring chicken back in the 1970s). I’m capable now of looking back and feeling bad for her being so disappointed in her own life that she’d be that cruel to a child, but at the time I would just spend a class in tears. And when a teacher singles a child out as appropriate for bullying, what kind of message does that send to the kids? That shit stays with you.

  139. 139.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Roger Moore:
    A few of my friends are Lefties, and I hover on the edge of dumping them for it. That puts me in a position to listen to their feelings and reactions about this stuff. They think Chelsea Manning is hero who endured torture for revealing the govetnment’s criminal acts to the world. The ratfucking involved is the same as with Sanders: When she loses, these people will believe the Democratic Party robbed them of their rightful candidate. It’s proof we are Republican-Lite and they should never vote Democrat.

  141. 141.

    efgoldman

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    They think Chelsea Manning is hero who endured torture for revealing the govetnment’s criminal acts to the world.

    And how many votes do they represent?
    Spoiler: You don’t have a powerful enough microscope.

  142. 142.

    Barbara

    @Mnemosyne: I responded to your comment yesterday. It’s hard to see justice being denied in slow motion, but I suspect this has more to do with how crazy things have become in Chicago than it does with unsympathetic prosecutors. I hope your friend gets justice.

  144. 144.

    NorthLeft12

    @Immanentize: I think you are assuming facts not in evidence. I’ll give Ms. Simon a little bit of credit that she could see how things were heading [south and quickly] and decided to get out on her own terms. With or without the support of the Board, her situation was going to be very uncomfortable [to say the least] and if she is truthful about retiring in 2016, then it would be relatively easy to decide to leave now.
    I just do not believe the Board actually asked her to quit….beyond the two who went public. Yeah, it might have eventually got there, but I just don’t see it today.

  145. 145.

    Mnemosyne

    @Barbara:

    The reason the guy keeps getting off is that he drags the process out for so long that the victim stops showing up and the case gets dismissed because there’s no witness.

    It’s not even that I don’t want him to get a trial. I want the judge to have the ability to cut the number of preliminary hearings short and schedule the trial when it turns out the guy can’t show up for a hearing because he’s currently in jail for the exact same offense. But, no, there were three more preliminary hearings scheduled after that, and now the prosecutor is getting bored and doesn’t want to have to keep going through the same cycle over and over again.

    Argh. Yes, I’m still feeling shouty.

  146. 146.

    Roger Moore

    @? Martin:
    I understand that universities are especially vulnerable, but MSU is not the only institution that failed miserably here; the USOC and US Gymnastics also completely failed. I suspect a feature they have in common is a huge focus on prestige and public credibility. One of the things that tempts people to sweep things like this under the rug is the belief that they can’t sustain the hit to their prestige that will come from public admission they have a problem. They hope that if only they can keep it quiet, the whole thing will eventually go away. Instead, they just provide cover for the problem to get worse until it can’t be contained anymore and blows up into something much worse than it would have been if it had been confronted when first discovered.

  149. 149.

    a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)

    @Nicole: I think without the statements from the victims, this entire mess would have been tidily swept away and the extent to which both USA Gymnastics and MSU ignored the problem would have never seen the light of day, in terms of public awareness outside of a small circle, I think Nasser would have more defenders speaking up for him, and there would be less willingness to consider the sorts of protections young athletes should be able to expect from the adults working with them and organizing their sports.
    It’s not a new problem; not only do we have the Penn State situation, but the Canadians had the Graham James scandal in ice hockey to sort out.

    This testimony is both horrible to hear and to deliver, but I think it’s important in establishing why, above and beyond the simple existence of a guilty plea. The sheer weight and volume makes it much harder for anyone to honestly say that the whole thing is an overreaction or a misinterpretation of something quite harmless. In terms of shaping public perception of this horror show, those statements are vital, and without them, no long-term changes will be effected.

  150. 150.

    Mnemosyne

    @Kirk:

    I can’t quite tell if you and SC are saying the same thing. I think she’s saying that anti-Semitism is the one they usually keep deeply buried, but it pops out under stress. I think they’re too open about their misogyny to say it’s deeply buried.

  153. 153.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Mnemosyne:
    I think it’s anti-black bigotry that drives the movement, and the Republican Party with it. There has been more anti-semitism lurking than I realized, and they are wildly misogynistic and homophobic. They may even be as misogynistic as they are racist. The two display differently, so it’s hard to compare. But the issue that has tracked steadily with the increasing fervor of the movement has been black visibility.

  154. 154.

    Roger Moore

    @a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio):
    I think the main reason for all the victim statements is to give all the victims a chance to have their say. They have been ignored, disbelieved, and dismissed, so having a chance to speak out in public is important. It gives them a chance to be heard and society a chance to show them they will be listened to.

  155. 155.

    Mnemosyne

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I’m still debating it in my head. Anti-Semitism is still the older of the two hatreds and is still baked into mainstream Christianity to some extent, despite the efforts to remove it (like Vatican II).

    And they’re slightly different fears, so it may be that they dovetail. The fear of a Black planet is different from the fear that a shadowy cabal behind the scenes is controlling everything. There’s a reason why most conspiracy theorists start going down the anti-Semitic road sooner rather than later — it’s the OG conspiracy theory going all the way back to the New Testament.

  156. 156.

    Roger Moore

    @Mnemosyne:
    It’s not just that antisemitism is about a different kind of fear than anti-black racism. They dovetail. When the marchers chanted about “Jews will not replace us” at the “Unite the Right” rally, they weren’t suggesting that whites were going to be replaced by Jewish people. They meant that the Jewish Cabal is responsible for minorities coming in to displace whites.

  157. 157.

    Kirk

    @Mnemosyne: Possible. I think the flip side is that antisemitism pops out because they can imagine it, while misogyny stays under the radar because it’s unthinkable.

    Note a: arguing who is at the bottom of the pile is somewhat absurd, and

    b: I’m fully aware I am straight white mansplaining here. Apply salt

  159. 159.

    Ruckus

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    I think it’s just easier to call them bigots, because their bigotry really knows no bounds. Are they racists, or mysoginists or….
    They are fucklng bigots, they hate pretty much everyone and their reasoning is bullshit. Do we really need to define each separate hate?

  160. 160.

    No Drought No More

    I’m old enough to have witnessed the sea change in Americans attitudes towards drunk drivers, largely as a consequence of the efforts by Mothers Against Drunk Driving. I tend to think I’m watching a similar dynamic play out now in cases of predatory sexual assault by men upon women.

    I certainly hope so. Like Ta Neisha Coates, I freely admit to having had my eyes opened wide over the past year. The ugly realities that women have struggled with forever was news to me. I can still scarcely believe that Weinstein ran as criminally wild as he apparently did (and for so long!), much less the behavior of those others exposed in the wake of his downfall. I remain utterly shocked, in fact, at the sheer scale of the ugly reality women confront daily, and my blindness in never having seen it before.. Those gymnasts that testified to their ordeals- and I daresay the judge herself, who cleared her docket to allow them to do so- deserve the thanks of this country for having bravely shined a great light so that millions of other men could likewise see. No doubt about it, either- millions did.

  161. 161.

    Amir Khalid

    @? Martin:
    Bernie Sanders was a Jewish candidate in 2016. Was his being Jewish brought up a lot? Did it have much to do with him not winning the nomination? I could be wrong, but I don’t remember it that way.

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