Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

Come on, man.

They want us to be overwhelmed and exhausted. Focus. Resist. Oppose.

“When somebody takes the time to draw up a playbook, they’re gonna use it.”

Let there be snark.

If you are still in the gop, you are either an extremist yourself, or in bed with those who are.

Just because you believe it, that does not make it true.

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

“Perhaps I should have considered other options.” (head-desk)

I’m starting to think Jesus may have made a mistake saving people with no questions asked.

We still have time to mess this up!

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

Republicans in disarray!

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Tick tock motherfuckers!

He seems like a smart guy, but JFC, what a dick!

I like political parties that aren’t owned by foreign adversaries.

No Kings: Americans standing in the way of bad history saying “Oh, Fuck No!”

The “burn-it-down” people are good with that until they become part of the kindling.

The republican caucus is covering themselves with something, and it is not glory.

Every one of the “Roberts Six” lied to get on the court.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Trump Trough (Open Thread)

Trump Trough (Open Thread)

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So, this is happening right now:

Stipulated: the Dow isn’t the economy, and a 1,500-point drop doesn’t mean the same in 2018 as it would have meant 20 years ago in terms of percentage. But damn! The contrast between that orange gasbag droning on about how Democrats didn’t applaud his stellar economic management with sufficient enthusiasm at his stupid speech last week and that chyron about the stock market tanking…

Reader Interactions

237Comments

  1. 1.

    LAO

    President Trump calls Democrats “un-American” for not standing and applauding during his State of the Union address. Adds: “Somebody said treasonous. Yea, why not? Can we call that treason? Why not?"— Matt Viser (@mviser) February 5, 2018

    My day is now complete.

  5. 5.

    Spanky

    @LAO: Yeah, that was the first thing I saw when I went to CNN for the DOW news:

    Trump calls Democrats Treasonous

    This is getting fucking nasty. And I don’t think it will end up necessarily in the Republicans’ favor.

  6. 6.

    LAO

    I really fucking hate Trump:

    It takes real effort to make the headline of your tax-cut-celebration speech at an Ohio factory be "Democrats are treasonous, president says."— Daniel Dale (@ddale8) February 5, 2018

  8. 8.

    LAO

    @Spanky: I certainly hope that you are correct. I think he’s vile, but the republican congressional leadership seems to be A-OK with him. And the media, a big shrug of the shoulders. I expect some political hack to say, that’s just Trump being Trump; his base loves him for it.

  9. 9.

    debbie

    Of course we can use the Dow against Trump. He’s used it as proof of his own excellence as president.

  11. 11.

    LAO

    Wow, if true:

    #BREAKING: Report: The Philadelphia Eagles will not accept an invitation to the White House from President Trump. Team decision made prior to the #SuperBowl in the event they won, as a sign of team unity.— TOᑭ ᖇOᑭE ᖇEᑭOᖇT ?? (@TopRopeTravis) February 5, 2018

  13. 13.

    TS

    So I’m talking to myself about this on the last thread – to repeat

    Collapsing markets are not good for me personally – as with many whose retirement is dependent on investments BUT if it helps bring down trump – I’ll cope. Funny how major market downturns always seem to occur during right wing administrations – they really have NO idea about good economic management – it’s always massive changes rather than steady growth. Trump gave himself the thanks for the Dow increases – the world will give him the blame for the losses – can only hope the American People will explain this at election time.

  14. 14.

    brettvk

    The Big Retailer I work for just recently offered bonuses with one hand while eliminating thousands of jobs with the other. In a subsequent meeting at our location to announce some management shuffles/eliminations, the big guy touted the increase in the stock price as the positive results of the closings and management decimation. This company tries hard to get grunts to buy stock, but I haven’t. It’s probably a dumb decision financially but I can’t shake the feeling that it would make me complicit – not to mention that I’m not paid enough to be an investor. At least I don’t have to ride the roller coaster that market gyrations produce.

  16. 16.

    mai naem mobile

    I was watching Dolt45 with the sound off. His color does not look good at all. Also the bags under his eyes look worse. I wonder if his cholesterol has gone up from stress eating.

  23. 23.

    Ryan

    To be scrupulously fair, imagine how bad it would’ve been if the Republicans hadn’t passed tax cuts.

  24. 24.

    debbie

    @LAO:

    I watched the anthem yesterday and noticed several players not holding their hands over their hearts. Have they been called treasonous yet?

  27. 27.

    mai naem mobile

    @LAO: heehee, I think i just became an Eagles fan and I have never given a shit about football. Poor wittle Dolt45 and DumDum Jr will snowflake whine about it on the Twitter machine.

  28. 28.

    trollhattan

    @LAO:
    Yeah wow. After listening them all thank gawd from the winner’s platform yesterday I figured they were headed to DC on the next train. Good for them!

  33. 33.

    Ohio Mom

    Is that a screen shot of Trump speaking at the Sheffer machine tool company, located in my Cincinnati suburb? Because that is where he is this afternoon, touting his tax cuts.

    I just came back from the protest — the road was blocked so we were a good long block away. He didn’t see us but the TV stations were filming us and we had a good time anyway.

    There was a group of Trumpers across the street. I remarked to a few people, “The difference between us and them is that all of us are going to go over our taxes and make sure enough is being withheld so we don’t owe gobs of money next year, unlike those fools.”

    In general, they were a younger, more male group, and many of them were not dressed for the temps in the very low thirties. The only signs they had were Trump/Pence campaign signs and a couple of hastily scribbled MAGA posterboards.

    What they did have, that we did not, is big American flags. They look heavy to schlep but our side needs them.

    We are more patriotic than them and we need to own it. Plus it will discombobulated them since they think they are the patriots. I’m trying to stay on a spending diet this year but this will be an exception.

  35. 35.

    Jeffro

    @Spanky: Trumpov’s going to go even further before this is over…wouldn’t surprise me a bit to see him advocating “second amendment solutions” for all these D congressmen / media figures.

    I mean that’s what you DO with treasonous traitors, right?

  39. 39.

    LAO

    @trollhattan: I’m shocked. I hope that it’s true. (As a Giant’s fan, it’s difficult to embrace the Eagles; but for (1) The Patriots and (2) Tom Brady and (3) Bill Belichek; it appears I loathe them more than I do the Eagles.)

  41. 41.

    JR

    I wonder how much of this is due to the treasury floating 1 trillion in what should have been largely unnecessary bonds.

  42. 42.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @LAO: Gonna buy me an Eagles jersey, maybe.

    I am perversely amused that this is happening on the day Bud Light appears to be doing some kind of “Dilly Dilly” promotion on the floor of one of the exchanges. How the hell does that work? /rhetorical, it just seems weird to me

  44. 44.

    LAO

    @JaneSays: Damn, now I’m disappointed, like they promised me that they wouldn’t visit the White House, but did behind my back. At least it will be easier to go back to hating them next season.

  45. 45.

    gvg

    paying lousy wages across the economy for decades has contributed to the need to close stores. so has over building. I can’t help noticing all the new storefront building when there are also so many empty stores. Housing is recovering. Commercial building in my area exposes the long term stupidity of many chains. so anyway I can see they have to close some and at the same time they should be paying more to the employees that they keep. It just annoys me when people won’t see the connections. bonuses aren’t as good as salary increases.
    Its not just businesses. At the big University I work at, they have found out through hard experience that potential donors want to build a building or something permanent even a brick in a sidewalk or wall, but don’t want to pay a years wages for someone because after it’s spent, it’s gone.

  47. 47.

    bobbo

    To me this looks like the market has gotten everything it hoped to get out of Trump (tax cuts) and now there is nothing to left to buy on.

  52. 52.

    Ohio Mom

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): Another set of crossed fingers and toes here.

    If Mr. DAW has never been in an MRI before, they are loud. I asked for, and got, earplugs. And, as you no doubt already know, if you two have any doubts or concerns, don’t hesitate to go for a second opinion.

    Please keep us posted!

  53. 53.

    Another Scott

    @ewrunning: Funny how that works. ;-)

    One of the Fed people supposedly said that he expects the interest rate they control to be increased 4x this year. Nothing like putting the fear of no more easy money into the heads of speculators who are used to making 20% returns on money that costs almost nothing.

    Geniuses.

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  56. 56.

    rikyrah

    Yes, the MLK Estate Did Approve That Trash Dodge Super Bowl Ad

    Anne Branigin
    Today 1:40pm

    Updated Monday, Feb. 5, 2018, at 1:40 p.m. EST: Fiat Chrysler Automobiles U.S., which owns Ram, has made it all too clear that Martin Luther King Jr.’s estate was well-aware of that Super Bowl ad and was “a very important part of the creative process every step of the way.”

    The statement was quoted in the New York Times and tweeted out by NBC News’ Nadine Comerford:

    The statement added that Ram was “honored to have the privilege of working closely” with the King estate. The licensor of King’s estate, which approves the use of his words and likeness, is Intellectual Properties Management Inc. Dexter Scott King, the iconic civil rights leader’s youngest son, is the group’s CEO.

  57. 57.

    Immanentize

    @Major Major Major Major: Couldn’t have happened to a nicer fake value asset. I am one of the luckiest humans alive, because my son is smart and able to use metaphor. He explained block chain to me and I am elevated. Really, not joking!

  61. 61.

    gene108

    @brettvk:

    This company tries hard to get grunts to buy stock

    An acquaintance’s wife worked for JCPenny. Bought company stock throughout the years. Stock is now basically worthless. She’ll never see her money back.

    It’s a good idea not to invest too heavily in retail.

  65. 65.

    jl

    If the stock market is starting a significant correction, I think that is more evidence that so far the Trump macroeconomic record is basically a continuation of Obama record. Stock and bond markets disagree on prospects for economic growth. Stock market has been Trumpist on that, and bonds more soberly (I think) counting on continuation of recent trends (which are low to moderate productivity growth).

    Which makes sense, Trump and GOP really didn’t do anything in the first year that would knock US off Obama macro policy. What 2018 brings, though, who know?

    For Trump is must be a nightmare, though, since he has no clue. He just mindless brags about big numbers.

  66. 66.

    Brachiator

    @TS:

    Collapsing markets are not good for me personally – as with many whose retirement is dependent on investments BUT if it helps bring down trump – I’ll cope.

    Hopefully, the markets will be booming when you actually retire. But yeah, anything that rattles Trump is a good thing.

  69. 69.

    efgoldman

    A very small piece of personal good news between the layers of shit.
    To whoever recommended the book Ghostland before the holidays, thank you.
    Bought it for mrs efg, she’s really enjoying it.
    That is all. We now return you to your regularly scheduled depressing bullshit.

  70. 70.

    jl

    @Betty Cracker: It boggles the mind that a non-disastrous, maybe even ‘OK’, appointment could come from the Trump administration, but Powell is the closest thing to Yellen among the candidates to replace her. Somebody who had a stake in good Fed policy somehow sold Powell to the Trumpsters, I guess, in order to try to stave off the loons they had in mind.

    Still, it was a bad move to replace her. And I heard her in an interview saying that she thought she deserved the customary second appointment, and was disappointed. I don’t blame her.

  73. 73.

    chopper

    @SFAW:

    so colluding with Russia is legal either way, but not standing and applauding trump’s speech is treason. makes sense.

  74. 74.

    Tom

    @gene108: The general rule of thumb is “Don’t buy stock in a company you work for. If they go under, you’ve lost both your paycheck and your investment.”

  75. 75.

    MCA1

    @rikyrah: None of which excuses Ram’s horrible judgment in making the decision to use the voice of MLK to sell f’ing pickup trucks.

    (I know you’re just posting the story and not attempting to excuse Ram – I’m speaking to them, I guess, not you!)

  76. 76.

    Humdog

    @brettvk: The only good thing I ever heard Jim Cramer say is do not buy too much of your employer stock because you will not be diversified. If your company shits the bed your current income and retirement hopes both go down together.

  77. 77.

    GregB

    The market delivers a resounding vote of confidence in Trump’s newly appointed Fed. Chair Powell.

  79. 79.

    Matt McIrvin

    @wjs: This is why people get annoyingly pedantic about the definition of treason. Because it’s the thing keeping Trump from starting in on mass arrests of anyone he considers disloyal.

  80. 80.

    jl

    It’s possible that Yellen was not re-appointed for trivial and stupid reasons, but ones that are very important in Trump’s mind. One is probably that Obama appointed her. Another is that Trump doesn’t think that Yellen looks like a central casting woman captain of finance. Should be tall and ‘leggy/.

    I wonder if Trump has any clue that his appointment, Powell, is one of the plausible replacements who is most likely to closely follow Yellen’s thinking on policy?
    Or, is that a dumb question? Or course Trump has no clue.

  82. 82.

    efgoldman

    @MCA1:

    I’m speaking to them, I guess, not you!)

    I saw a help wanted ad they put out for “poor bastard assigned to read Balloon Juice on company time”

  83. 83.

    TS

    @JR:

    I wonder how much of this is due to the treasury floating 1 trillion in what should have been largely unnecessary bonds.

    Money pundits have been linking this – but other than Paul Krugman I’m not sure who among the money pundits are worth listening to.

    Paul Krugman
    So we could have a significant setback if stock/real estate both turn out to be bubbles and burst, and overstretched consumers pull back. Doesn’t look that bad, however, as long as the policy response is good. And we have high confidence in current policymakers. Oh, wait 6/

  84. 84.

    Marcopolo

    @jl: hello folks, just dropping by for a minute. While I agree with the idea that Powell was the person most likely to continue Yellen’s policies, he ain’t no economist, apparently was on the wrong side of a lot the policy arguments since he joined the Fed, and need I say again he doesn’t have the economic chops. I can only hope he spends a hella lotta time on the phone with Yellen over the next year or so. That would be the wise thing to do and he does seem to have common sense.

  87. 87.

    jl

    @TS: I think whether the extra trillion is a big deal depends on whether you think Trump and GOP super high productivity forecasts will come true, and come true almost immediately following passage of their tax heist. But, even if not, I think only a moderate deal.

    I think a lot of hidden slack in labor market, judging from employment population ratios.

    At the Fed, everything indicates that Powell will follow Yellen-style policy. So we are good there. But at Treasury…. hooo boy… FSM knows what they will do.

  88. 88.

    El Caganer

    @gvg: Same sort of ‘donor fatigue’ I noticed in a couple nonprofits I worked for – people didn’t mind giving annually for children’s literacy, since when the kid learns to read, that’s done. But giving to a food bank…..kid’s gonna be hungry again tomorrow. I wish we had a safety net so that we never needed food banks.

  89. 89.

    Mike in NC

    Disappointed that Fat Bastard wasn’t jeered and pelted with rotten produce every time he lied at SOTU.

  90. 90.

    jl

    @Marcopolo: True, but he knows what staff to listen too, and far better than anyone could have hoped for a few months ago.

    Better to have someone who was wrong on a lot of policy issues, but has a grasp of some econ and finance, than loons who has been wrong on everything but will never admit it, or arrogant ideologically soured academics who have gone dodgy (all the other candidates)

  97. 97.

    HeleninEire

    LOL. The blaming of Obama for the bad numbers after a year of taking credit for the good numbers is gonna be EPIC.

  99. 99.

    Marcopolo

    @jl: Lol, I think we agree though I will disagree on your one point and add that there was one other candidate—reappointing that Yellen woman :).

  100. 100.

    Mart

    @Ryan: Progressive radio voice Thom Hartman, who (for what it is worth) just separated ways with RT, has long theorized that economic crashes are directly correlated to tax cuts.

  102. 102.

    Brachiator

    @jl:

    I wonder if Trump has any clue that his appointment, Powell, is one of the plausible replacements who is most likely to closely follow Yellen’s thinking on policy?
    Or, is that a dumb question? Or course Trump has no clue.

    Yeh, Trump has no clue. Hopefully Powell will provide balance to offset the incompetence of Trump’s Treasury Secretary, the Evil Munchkin.

  103. 103.

    Mart

    @bobbo: Never heard on the news any voices questioning the need for massive tax cuts when the economy is booming / nearing peak-employment of around 4%. Don’t you keep that in the quiver for when you need a stimulus after the economy takes a dump?

  106. 106.

    Sab

    @Mart: “Just separated from RT”. Count me as unimpressed.

    I think he is right, but that might be a blind squirrel thing.

  107. 107.

    Jeffro

    Since this is an OT: just saw a great tweet letting the people of Boston know that all of their Dunkin’ Donuts are being converted to Wawa’s

    If only they could do that for the 7-Elevens here in NoVA as well …

  109. 109.

    GregB

    @Brachiator:

    Yeah….Trump will be tweeting about getting a Mulligan appointment to replace Powell with Larry Kudlow after Powell’s bigly weak performance as a secret deep state Obama plant.

  110. 110.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Twitter cuts off the handle for some reason when I cut’n’paste lately. But I think you can guess who this is….

    The stock market and US dollar are both plunging today. Welcome to BarackObama’s second term.

    ETA: Betsy Woodruff just said that Devin Nunes tried to get an intel station put on “an obscure Portuguese island” where he likes to go on vacation. Unrelated to politics, I don’t know what island this is, but I like the sound of it. I want to go to there. When Nunes isn’t. Or maybe he is. I could spit in his drink

  111. 111.

    MattF

    This ‘treason’ business seems relatively new. There was a (I think) Texas Congressman who was claiming over the weekend that the Nunes memo proves that Dems are traitors. Not good.

    It seems a couple of degrees worse than what we’d seen so far. Is this happening on Fox as well?

  112. 112.

    TS

    @Mart:

    Never heard on the news any voices questioning the need for massive tax cuts when the economy is booming / nearing peak-employment of around 4%. Don’t you keep that in the quiver for when you need a stimulus after the economy takes a dump?

    Yes, Yes and Yes. But RW governments never do this. They see good times and use the surplus to buy votes with tax cuts – when the bad times come – they have no reserves. I’m a keynesian economist since forever and no RW government has ever properly implemented Keynes theory.

    Paul Ryan uses Ayn Rand theory – kill off the poor.

  113. 113.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @ brianbeutler
    Trump puts Mick Mulvaney in charge of the CFPB (at least until the D.C. Circuit says otherwise) & where is the payday lending industry going to celebrate? You guessed it. A Trump hotel!
    @ AndreaWNYC
    Party at the Trump Doral for payday lending industry bigwigs “capping a year where the industry has gone from villain to victor” ]

  117. 117.

    Brachiator

    @brettvk:

    This company tries hard to get grunts to buy stock, but I haven’t.

    The employees should strongly resist this. Their portfolios should be diversified. Also, it is a bad sign if the bosses are “encouraging” workers to buy stock. If investors aren’t hot to buy, why should employees be eager?

  120. 120.

    JMG

    @brettvk: It’s seldom a good idea to invest in the stock of the company you work for. For one thing, it ties to the job more than you might want.

  122. 122.

    MattF

    @Brachiator: Yeah, the stock market is not a good place to demonstrate loyalty to the corporation. It could very well be a ‘right-hand giveth what the left hand taketh away’ sort of situation. Better to just do your job well.

  123. 123.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Watching trump’s “treason” comment: The Dems’ lack of applause got under the orange.

  124. 124.

    PAM Dirac

    I just looked this up. Doesn’t the fit with the shitgibbon’s lies so I guess it hasn’t been brought up. These are S&P 500 returns for the calendar year:

    2009 25.9% Obama’s first year
    2013 32.1% first year of Obama’s second term
    2017 21.6% drumpf’s first year

    The shitgibbon can’t even beat the socialist at capitalism.

  125. 125.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    I know a guy from high school who didn’t go to college, and makes a middling income working for some small business guy. He goes on and on and on and on about how great everything is now because the stock market is flying because of all the amazing and wonderful things Donald Tяump has done. My guess is that he doesn’t own any stocks, but he loves to point to them as proof that Tяump is “turning the economy around” or some such horseshit. The fact that this started years ago when Obama was president and that this is just the same boom we saw get going under Obama doesn’t seem to occur to him at all. It’s all magic, it’s all wonderful, and it’s all Tяump’s doing, since he’s such a truly stellar, superlative manager and leader. I wonder what he’s going to say when the stock market hits its inevitable skid and it all crashes down by 40% or whatever percentages these things crash by. My guess is that when that happens, it’ll be because of something Obama did in 2011, and it only manifested itself today.
    #somuchwinning

  127. 127.

    Kay

    Absolutely Trump should be held accountable for every drop. Also every job loss.

    He can’t have it both ways. He takes credit for the gains, he takes blame for the losses.

    The stock market has to go straight up along with wages and employment, or the tax cuts failed. It isn’t just Trump, either. Every single one of those companies who pretended those 1000 bonuses were due to far Right economic policy? They have to explain.

    This idea that these guys get to claim credit but not accept blame is bullshit. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not- they SAID it was true. If UP is true then DOWN is too.

  130. 130.

    Kay

    You know, Obama could have lied about the economy, like Trump does. He could have done that. He made a big grownup decision NOT to do that and therefore got no credit for the recovery.

    There have to be consequences for these lies! If Donald Trump wants to lie to people and tell them he’s responsible for a rising stock market then he is ALSO responsible for a falling stock market.

    Trump did this. He set this up. Now he has to live with it. Them’s the rules.

  132. 132.

    Kay

    @MattF:

    Trump doesn’t “take” blame because it’s presented as if it’s up to Trump to “take” it. It isn’t up to him.

    This is simple. He took credit so he GETS the blame. This idea that there’s going to be some “nuance” with the pathological liar is ridiculous. Of course he won’t “take it”. He gets it anyway.

  133. 133.

    Jeffro

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: he is especially mad that ungrateful black people didn’t appreciate his magnanimity …

    … if he is still in office at this time next year, every single Democrat should flip him the bird

  136. 136.

    Another Scott

    @chopper: Only if you think the Fed really has control over economic activity (as opposed to speculation). In spite of my comment earlier, it’s hard for me to see that the Fed cutting interest rates from a higher baseline of ~ 3% to 0% is really going to do much of anything if the economy really is in a recession. They’ll have to do the “unconventional” stuff again (and they have ways of making that work, but Congress has to do its part, too).

    There’s too much money in the world not being used for productive purposes – purposes that raise the incomes and standards of living for normal people. There’s too much demand for safe investments (that’s why people are willing to earn 1-2% or less on CDs). The Fed would be pushing on a string if its rate was 3% or 5%, too, when credit cards charge 20+%… They have too little control over the money supply.

    I expect this is just a bit of profit taking from nervous people. It’s to be expected after a 20+% annual gain. I don’t see signs of the economy over-heating, so I don’t see a conventional recession happening. But normal people are spending down savings in an unhealthy way, so that might indicate that a slowdown is coming, or underway, also too. Post WWII economic history only tells us so much…

    We’ll see.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  137. 137.

    Mary G

    @Ohio Mom: Did I miss the final decision on your sign? What did it say? Good on you and your fellow protesters braving the cold.

    Add me to the of people wishing Mr. DAW’s test turns out right.

  138. 138.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Tom: This. My wife and I were both happy to TAKE stock as part of our compensation from our respective companies (particularly in the start-up world), but actively investing more is a bad idea. It’s the definition of putting all your eggs in one basket.

    Hell, we end up diversifying a huge chunk of our stock from our companies anyway, even though both companies have had fairly stellar performance this last year (+30% and +25% return year-over-year).

  140. 140.

    germy

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Watching trump’s “treason” comment: The Dems’ lack of applause got under the orange.

    Imagine if he had to endure what Obama experienced? An asshole in the audience yelling “You lie!” ?

    He would have walked off the stage.

  141. 141.

    Kay

    I’m actually relieved. If something hadn’t happened they were all going to talk about the fake-scandal on the memos for weeks and weeks, like manic chattering monkeys.

    The fake memo scandal may have surpassed the months they spent on the fake Clinton email scandal.

  142. 142.

    J R in WV

    Trump is displaying stupidity at an ever increasing rate. Hating Trump is NOT hating America, far from it. And even there, hating America isn’t treason either. Giving Aid and Comfort to America’s enemies is treason, as defined in the Constitution. Shame The Donald has never read it, ever. I have read it a lot.

    I mean, really – not applauding a terrible and divisive speech by a terrible and divisive president is Treason? Really? That idea is far closer to treason than not clapping for a jerk failing to make an actual speech. Really !!!

    And who today is offering aid and comfort to our enemies? Donald John Trump? Who else, who more?

    Glad the Iggles won the Superb Owl. Have visited Boston as a youth, but lived in Philly for a little while as a draft-age young man. Visited Philly for work quite a bit as EPA Region III was headquartered there, and I visited them often. A nice city. Great seafood.

    And the Eagles decided AS A TEAM before the game that they didn’t want to have anything to do with visiting Trump’s Whitehouse. Sweet!

  144. 144.

    chopper

    @Another Scott:

    3 points isn’t too much to work with. in previous recessions the fed was starting at 6 or more points, that’s a lot of meat to work with. they kept the rate at basement level for so long there was no chance.

  147. 147.

    chopper

    also, typically in the past congress would get off it’s ass and help on the fiscal side. these days the fed is on its own when recession comes along.

  148. 148.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Sab: I haven’t followed Thom Hartmann in years, but he was a very solid (if pedantic) lefty during the 2000s. Always did like the in-depth discussions he had, and he was absolutely on board with defending core democratic values (and the democratic party) in a forceful way.

  154. 154.

    laura

    @MattF: classic pump and dump.
    In my past, ultra-glamorous grocery store career, paysop/esop, we were given the really hard sell to invest in our great company. KKR took the company private, looted the shite out of it and ran.
    Those in the upper managementioned did ok, but the workers, with their common stock, didn’t even have the certificates to use as the fuel when roasting our sparrows on our curtain rods under the overpass.
    Also, DorothyofWindsor, I second the recommendation for ear plugs and am now at the end of a long line of those wishing you both the best of all possible outcomes.

  156. 156.

    Patricia Kayden

    @LAO: Trump is beyond an idiot. Words fail to describe who and what he is. Democrats shouldn’t even have attended SOTU in the first place. The fact that they didn’t stand for a bullying bigot is the least they could do to send a message that he is vile and they don’t respect him.

  158. 158.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @TS: I’m gritting my teeth and getting ready to ride out the storm. In 2008, my retirement account dropped in value by about 1/3, and took until late 2010 to recover and begin growing again, but it did recover. So I’m living off money in a Money Market fund (no growth, no loss) and going to try to pretend the rest of it doesn’t exist for a couple of years. Hopefully I’ve got enough.

    I’ve known we were riding a bubble, it was patently obvious. Did people really think we were in a new era of “every investment going up 10% a month every month, forever, yeah this time it’s real!!!” I’m afraid people do. Yeah, every time this has happened in history, it blows up because you can’t go up forever. But that was then. This time it’s different. This time it’s gonna grow forever!!!!!

    Doesn’t change my retirement plans. I’m currently not being paid for my time, but I’m hoping to translate a couple of things into a little cash flow this year. Would be nice if I have a net profit, not a killer if I don’t. I’m still having too damn much fun.

    I guess if the Republicans can screw the markets up enough to wipe out a Money Market fund, that would change things for me. But at that point I think we’d be in the Zombie Apocalypse and I’m not sure how to plan for that. I don’t even have a bunker.

  161. 161.

    Cermet

    @Another Scott: Agree on all counts; add to it that corporations have far too much debt and people have nor reserves so the makings of the next economic fall are planted, being water and fertilized (i.e with both more debt (interest rates still too low) as savings continue to drop) and these seeds have being growing for some time.

  162. 162.

    Mike J

    @laura:

    now at the end of a long line of those wishing you both the best of all possible outcomes.

    And Dorothy, I too hope the MRI gives your husband superpowers and reveals no bad news.

  163. 163.

    Patricia Kayden

    @J R in WV:

    Hating Trump is NOT hating America, far from it.

    The argument that Democrats not standing up to cheer on Dear Leader = hating America is a Republican talking point. I listen to Al Sharpton’s radio program and some brain dead White guy called in to make that ridiculous claim. I almost crashed my car to applaud when Rev Sharpton told the caller that his claim was nonsense since Trump is not America. As if Republicans stood up and cheered President Obama during the eight times he made SOTU speeches.

  164. 164.

    PAM Dirac

    @chris: Here’s the stats (S&P 500 return including dividends) in text:
    2009 25.9% Obama’s first year
    2013 32.1% first year of Obama’s second term
    2017 21.6% drumpf’s first year

    I don’t remember the RWNJs praising Obama in 2013 for giving their 401ks such a lift.

  166. 166.

    Mart

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    The stock market and US dollar are both plunging today. Welcome to @BarackObama’s second term.

    Your date stamp for Trump’s tweet is today, not 7 Nov. 2012. Threw me off for a couple secs…

    Edited – Debbie also too

  167. 167.

    Brachiator

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    The Dems’ lack of applause got under the orange.

    Good. I think that the Dems (and reporters) should do more to just plain rattle Trump. And then demand that the GOP leadership get him under control when he acts like a fool.

  173. 173.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    Can I just say how I hate all “end of the world” reporting? I hated fear-mongering even before Fox showed us how to turn it into a business model. But now I really, really hate it.

    In my email inbox is a CNN news alert. It opens with this:

    Dow plunges 1,175 — worst point decline in history

    Now I know that’s meaningless. Who cares about worst point decline? Is that a big percentage or not?

    You have to keep reading several paragraphs before the first bit of meaningful information surfaces.
    The drop amounted to 4.6% — nowhere close to the destruction on Black Monday in 1987 or the financial crisis of 2008.

    I see. The worst decline in history was nowhere near the very recent one most of us still remember, in 2008. But nevertheless, time to start panicking?

    So having contradicted their own lead, they close with this bit of weak sauce.

    But for investors lulled to sleep by the steady upward climb since Election Day, it was alarming.

    Yes, but those are people whose job it is to get elated or alarmed a dozen times a day by microscopic shifts. For the rest of us, what was the point of telling us this?

  176. 176.

    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho

    @Ohio Mom: Thank you for doing that in the cold with the Trumpsters so close. And those poor fools will probably owe some coin this coming year, because they certainly won’t consider that the changes could impact them negatively. Fuck em.

  178. 178.

    jl

    @Brachiator: Also, Powell needs to counterbalance other lower level Trump appointees, who have been and will be nightmares of arrogant incompetence.

  179. 179.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Yeah. My dad told me that Friday’s drop cost him something like $30k on paper. This has to be a bad hit too, and my folks are retired now. Can’t exactly go back to work if it drops a whole lot.

  180. 180.

    Patricia Kayden

    @LAO: YES!!!!! Love to hear that. That’s how you treat Trump. You don’t dignify him with your attention. I don’t even watch football but the Eagles are my heroes for making that decision.

  181. 181.

    FlipYrWhig

    @PAM Dirac: There is a bizarre collective delusion, seemingly very widely shared, that Obama’s presidency was terrible for the economy but perhaps covered for it with a lot of touchy-feely feel-good-ery instead.

  183. 183.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @gene108:

    The father of one of my best friends worked diligently for a trucking company for years in a lower mid management position. He had a pension and was encouraged to buy company stock as well.

    Reagan’s deregulation hit, and trucking numbers went wonky. Even though the company was healthy and profitable, stock prices took a dive and came on the radar of those fucking mid 80s buzzard capitalists. They bought the thing on a shit bond float and gutted it – they spun off the pension fund to a shell and the stock went to 0.

    It was capitalism at its finest, because his dad ended up broke in his early 60s

  184. 184.

    PAM Dirac

    @Radiumgirl: There are a lot of different pressures beginning to build up for drumpft. I wonder if this market slump will add another (besides the hit to the “financial genuis” lie). Anyone with half a brain knew that the market had gone up fast enough that correction was going to come. Of course that leaves out drumpft and his gang of incompetents, especially the younger generation. I wonder if they got themselves into some risky positions that have crashed. I hope Bobby Three Sticks has an eye on Russian money moving in to bail out the idiots.

  185. 185.

    p.a.

    Some good news, from NPR’s tumblr:

    The United States Supreme Court has decided not to block a state court ruling requiring Pennsylvania’s Legislature to immediately redraw its legislative boundaries.

    Pennsylvania’s state Supreme Court had previously ruled those 18 congressional districts — drawn by a Republican Legislature and signed by a Republican governor in 2011 — were overly partisan and violated the state Constitution.

    The state’s Democratic governor and Republican-controlled Legislature now have until Feb. 15 to draw new lines.

    ETA: that’s not a lot of time. maybe they’ll use one of those computer generated ‘rational district’ programs. although each party probably has alt maps ready to go.

  186. 186.

    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): Good wishes from here. I love his “Imma play some bridge” attitude. My shop hands out earplugs for MRIs, and thankfully they are quieter than 20 years ago. But they are still hellaciously loud.

    I hope the doc is a good predictor and it’s benign.

  187. 187.

    Aleta

    T used the stock market numbers as an approval poll of himself. (Although 90-95% of Americans weren’t included in that polling.) That “poll” represents (let’s say) only 5-10% of the people, those wealthy enough to be investing and active in the market. (Assuming it’s OK to leave out the managers of funds for people’s pensions and retirement.) If the market reflected the opinion of super wealthy for the first year…right now he is very unpopular among them.

  189. 189.

    PAM Dirac

    @FlipYrWhig: Funny how having control of the narrative works. Before I looked up the numbers I knew that the Obama years had been good, but I was under the impression that 2017 was even better.

  193. 193.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Aleta: There’s no way Trump understands that “the economy” and “the stock market” are two different things. It’s like the way he thinks he likes a “strong dollar” because it has the word “strong” in it. He’s just incredibly stupid about everything and relies on like 8 “successful” people with “common sense” to explain things to him, one of whom is Sean Hannity. It’s an embarrassment.

  194. 194.

    danielx

    @chris:

    I believe that Trump is entirely capable of loudly proclaiming that anything from the past is a fake tweet, because…Trump.

  196. 196.

    Brachiator

    The stock market and US dollar are both plunging today. Welcome to @BarackObama’s second term.

    Wow. There is much seriously wrong with Trump.

    People should just ignore this crap. Or laugh at him.

  198. 198.

    jl

    @PAM Dirac: The Trump Boom BS in media is just 100 percent mindlessly wrong. Clear evidence that the news actors on network and cable have no clue about the economy, and are so lost they don’t even know who to ask. I guess a GOPer operative tells them something and they figure :”Well, GOP people know about money, so what they tell me must be correct.” and then they just repeat the words, because, why not?

    It really takes just a minute or two. Just ask FRED:
    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/

    An intern could get more than enough real data for a whole segment in five or ten minutes.

    The business reporters have been much better. But for some reason people like Jill Schesinger (CBS), for example, aren’t allowed to do much big picture economic reporting. I finally did hear a spot from her on the Trump Boom, and she said except for stock market, really hasn’t been one. I guess that sounds too commie, or would rile GOP hacks who would act mean to the news actors, or something.

  203. 203.

    Brachiator

    @FlipYrWhig:

    There is a bizarre collective delusion, seemingly very widely shared, that Obama’s presidency was terrible for the economy

    Only Republican nut jobs believe this. They believe similar crap about the Clinton presidency.

    Sadly, some regular folk believe this as well. It comes back to the earlier thread about messaging. Some folks will believe a false conventional wisdom no matter what you tell them or show them. And even if you can get them to acknowledge the facts, they will soon return to their false thinking.

  204. 204.

    SFAW

    @chopper:

    so colluding with Russia is legal either way, but not standing and applauding trump’s speech is treason. makes sense.

    In a coming episode of Shitgibbon World (prolly on the ShitGorilla Channel): Lying Littledick declares, post-indictment, that colluding with Vladi and Russia is the patriotic thing to do, and trying to enforce the laws — especially those cited by Mr. Mueller — is treasonous. Which is why he refused to enforce the sanctions, I guess.

  208. 208.

    germy

    True, it’s Steve Inskeep, but interesting point anyway:

    The president often answers criticism by accusing others of doing what he’s accused of (“No puppet- you’re the puppet;” those calling him racist are denounced for “hatred”). Remarkable, then, for the president to talk of “treason.”

    https://t.co/5TwPDKB1Wk— Steve Inskeep (@NPRinskeep) February 5, 2018

  211. 211.

    WaterGirl

    @Cheryl Rofer: I am not being snarky when I say that Trump’s coloring in the photo you posted looks like a very badly made up dead person in a casket on display at a funeral home.

    edit: never mind. I see that the photo is from 2012.

  212. 212.

    J R in WV

    @schrodingers_cat:

    @J R in WV: The oath of allegiance is to the Constitution not the person in the WH.

    Yes indeed!! That was my point… sorry if I wasn’t clearer about that.

  214. 214.

    catclub

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    I’m gritting my teeth and getting ready to ride out the storm. …. but it did recover. So I’m living off money in a Money Market fund (no growth, no loss) and going to try to pretend the rest of it doesn’t exist for a couple of years.

    exactly the right thing to do. Hold about four years retirement income in cash allows flexibility in withdrawals.

    Here is a writeup for others of ‘The Four year rule‘

  215. 215.

    JoeyJoeJoe Junior Shabadoo

    @MattF: Paul Gosar, from Arizona or possibly Goseria. In 2011, he got in trouble for sharing his staff with Sarah Palin or something like that.

  216. 216.

    Ruckus

    @MisterForkbeard:
    Not to rub it in but it’s nice to have enough that a 4.6% drop loses him $30K.
    I did the math, he’s still OK.
    I’m retirement age and I don’t have $30K.

  217. 217.

    Ruckus

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho:
    Talked to a buddy the other day. He told me he had an MRI on Friday and it was loud. He’s 71, has never had an MRI. I’d have to take off my shoes to count how many I’ve had in the last 25 yrs. In just the last 5 there have been numerous. Yes the new machines are much nicer than they were 25 yrs ago not as noisy and a bit bigger so that my moderate frame actually fits. What’s even better is that they are a much better diagnostic tool than they used to be. Much better resolution, much better targeting. Technology really is worth something.
    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
    :
    I hope every thing goes well. As you can see above I’m quite used to MRIs and really they aren’t all that bad. Decent headphones or earplugs work quite well.

  218. 218.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @WaterGirl:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): If you plan to be here, we can start a fight or something to distract you.

    In all truth, WG, we can — and assuredly will — start a fight at some point this evening, whether or not DAW/IOL is here to watch.

    You have a kind heart.

  222. 222.

    WaterGirl

    @SiubhanDuinne: Fuck you, SiubhanDuinne! That’s about all I’ve got, my fighting skills are kinda week. :-) And I didn’t mean it anyway, so that means my fighting skills are super week. (Thanks for the kind words about a kind heart.)

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): But I’ll try harder if it would help. :-) Is Victora the show with Rufus Sewell? I am not very interested in any of the shows about the english royalty, but I am REALLY interested in anything that lets me watch Rufus Sewell. Maybe I could turn the sound down and just watch the video?

    I first saw him in Eleventh Hour, another good show that was taken off the air.

  229. 229.

    Steve in the ATL

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    (I suppose there are people who have gone to France and not had a good time, but I’ve never met nor read about any such.)

    Flyover state people.

  230. 230.

    Fair Economist

    @chopper:

    f this last week is heralding the beginning of an economic slowdown then the fed’s gonna wish they had raised rates a lot more before now.

    No, because if they’d raised them sooner that would have triggered the recession then. That’s like saying you wish you’d turned the thermostat way down when it was chilly so you could turn it up more when there’s a freeze.

  231. 231.

    Fair Economist

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: The current Dow drop is not particularly disturbing in itself, although it is somewhat concerning. The stock market bounces up and down all the time. There are a number of other indicators flashing yellow right now – the yield curve is nearly flat; house prices are far too high in many metropolitan areas; and a number of states are in downturns. None of these are panic signals but taken together a recession in the near future is plausible.

    My personal belief is that the plunge in the stock market is being driven by the realization that the Trump tax cuts will increase the deficit more than twice as much as was predicted. That creates a substantial upward pressure on interest rates and significantly increases the chance of political trouble with the budget and the debt ceiling. It also means the forecasts, even by serious economists, were really off. All that means uncertainty, and the stock market doesn’t like uncertainty.

  233. 233.

    terry chay

    @brettvk: Bad idea to buy stock in your own company unless there is a special incentive. First, it doesn’t hedge you in the slightest and Second, if you have money, you should just put it into a 401K in an index fund and forget about it (unless your 401K is somehow maxed).

  235. 235.

    JAFD

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
    Sending you hopeful thoughts and making requests to Whomever’s In Charge Of This Mess for a good result.
    Was MRI’d a couple of years ago, Don’t remember it as being _that_ noisy, but y’m’aswell bring earplugs.
    When I was young, knew some old men who’d put their savings into stock of their employer, the Pennsylvania RR. Sic transit gloria… If your employer’s selling you stock at a discount, and six months later you can sell it and put cash into index fund, OK, otherwise not.

  237. 237.

    BruceFromOhio

    But damn! The contrast between that orange gasbag droning on about how Democrats didn’t applaud his stellar economic management with sufficient enthusiasm at his stupid speech last week and that chyron about the stock market tanking…

    Whatever. Stay the fuck out of Ohio, orange fartcloud.

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