Give those crafty Europeans credit for knowing their symbols:
“We will put tariffs on Harley-Davidson, on bourbon and on blue jeans – Levis,” European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker told German television.”
It is worth noting that not only are these the stereotypical (one might almost say, caricature) emblems of Americana, Harley’s are made in Wisconsin, just north of Paul Ryan’s district and, as we all know, McTurtle is from the great corn-mash state of Kentucky.
Funny how a policy conceived in ignorant petulance has obvious, immediate, and hugely stupid consequences.
You may consider this both a proof-of-life post and an open thread.
(Truly astonishing NSFW the-world-was-sure-different-then image below the fold)
Images: R. M. Devens “Famous whiskey insurrection in Pennsylvania”, an illustration from Our first century: being a popular descriptive portraiture of the one hundred great and memorable events of perpetual interest in the history of our country, 1882.
Wells & Hope Co, Belle of Nelson poster, 1878. (Lifted/stolen from this work by Jean-Léon Gerome.)
Roger Moore
They’re missing on that one, since Levis haven’t been made in the USA for quite a while. They’re an American brand, but they’re all sewn in places with much cheaper labor.
germy
“Trade wars are good and easy to win.”
Another Scott
@Roger Moore: Pedantic response – some are made in the USA, but they cost much more (as you would expect).
Cheers,
Scott.
(“Who realizes there are probably 12 other responses saying the same thing by the time he clicks Post Comment…”)
FlyingToaster
And next they’ll impose tariffs on our music. And films. And all of the stuff that has given us cultural hegemony since the end of WWII.
I swear to the FSM, we’re headed for the opening chapter of Neuromancer, here.
patroclus
Imposing massive tariffs (25% is NOT small) is one of the stupidest policies I have ever seen in my lifetime and is derivative of Smoot-Hawley, which as Ferris Bueller might tell you (although he missed the lecture for some reason) is one of the causes of the Great Depression. As this post indicates, other countries will retaliate, hurting exports, imports will be costlier to consumers on all sorts of items because prices will be passed on, NAFTA will tank and we’ve already left TPP. Long-term, this is just terrible! No President since Hoover has done anything like this.
And there really isn’t much hope this can be overturned, if Trump really follows through. Congress won’t do anything. A legal challenge on the basis that this isn’t really national security (the only basis on which an EO can do it) will likely fail because if the President merely makes a “finding” of national security, it’s almost always deemed legit.
WaterGirl
This article lists a whole bunch of critical meetings and phone calls that Hope Hicks was part of: Trump ignored ‘bright line’ on discussing Russia with Hicks I figured she was in deep doo-doo, but seeing it laid out like this, well, wow, just wow.
Ajabu
But that Harley-Davidson thing will leave a mark. Wonder if ZEGS will just tell his constituents that
he does’t run trade either, just like he doesn’t run Nunes committee?
as for the bourbon ad, I have no words
(other than: It looks like Trump would be right at home there.)
Barbara
“We can do symbol laden spite as well as you can — D**bsh*t.”
Mary G
Some news people are saying the Levis tariff is a shot at Nancy Pelosi, but what has she ever done to them? Also, too, if they were taking shots at Democrats they would target something from New York for Schumer. I think Levis were chosen just because they’re an iconic American thing.
Mary G
@Another Scott: From your Amazon link:
Red states.
efgoldman
Aren’t Harleys made with…. steel and aluminum (among other things)
In effect, our get even Ferret Head is imposing an export tariff on them (and many other things)
ETA:And can the Alleged “President” impose a tariff without congressional action?
Baud
Wait till the world starts imposing tariffs on our ag products.
Baud
@efgoldman:
I assume there is a preexisting statute that allows him to do this?
mad citizen
Economists of the world unite! Looks like we need an Economists March on Washington. The only good thing I see about TGWOT (The Global War on Trade) is that it will take down the Dotard and Family’s real estate businesses. Worst effect will be the world war.
--bd
Yeah. Living in Dearborn, I can tell you that hookahs look a lot different now compared to the one that the guy is holding on the whiskey label.
schrodingers_cat
T and his voters and the R party think everything is a zero sum game. This going to be a lose-lose proposition, if it is not reversed soon.
Chyron HR
@Baud:
I don’t think the Attorney General actually makes Keebler cookies, that’s just a meme.
patroclus
@efgoldman: Yes, upon a finding that it is a matter of national security. It obviously isn’t, but a legal challenge is unlikely to succeed because courts almost always defer to the executive branch on such “findings.” And it isn’t a Treasury “finding” – it’s a Presidential “finding.” Mnuchin could slow walk the paperwork, but not indefinitely. Hopefully, a smart Treasury lawyer writes it so badly that a court could conclude that it was b.s.
Magda in Black
I feel kinda dumb I hadn’t made the Harley/Ryan Bourbon/McConnell connection. But, it has been a long drama filled week. TY for connecting the dots for me.
Baud
@Chyron HR: Ha!
Another Scott
Piling on, SCMP:
On that last bit, people were yelling for years during the Obama Administration that China was somehow causing us problems by buying Treasuries. Trouble for China is, they have to buy them to keep the value of the Yuan/Renminbi low to keep up their exports. If they dump Treasuries and cause the value of the Y/R to rise (by depressing the value of the Dollar), they’re hurting their own economy. Plus, they have, what, $3T in dollar-denominated assets? They don’t want to destroy the value of their assets.
China, and the EU, and the rest of the world will respond if Trump does impose tariffs on aluminum and steel. But it doesn’t mean we’re doomed. While he’s brain damaged, they’re not.
Cheers,
Scott.
NorthLeft12
The Guardian has an interesting article on the complete failure of the “Clean Coal” project.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/02/clean-coal-america-kemper-power-plant
I am wondering if this story gets much traction in the US media.
germy
NBC:
NorthLeft12
@Magda in Black:
Frankly, I think the Europeans could have made a better point by targeting industries in Republican held states that are more likely to flip to the Dems than Kentucky and Ryan’s district.
efgoldman
@Baud:
Dunno’. Burnsie might.
patroclus
@Another Scott: “China” isn’t purchasing Treasuries – various independent publicly-traded companies domiciled in China and various Chinese partially-owned SOE’s (and some full-blown SOE’s) are buying them. Pretending that they are all the same is inaccurate and thinking that they will all act the same is also not likely. Canada is the largest exporter of steel to the U.S. – they WILL respond and it won’t be pretty. NAFTA will die and a U.S.-less TPP (but with Canada) will also respond. It’ll be like BREXIT – the rules of trade will be set by others and the U.S. will have little to no say about them (but will ultimately have to comply with the market standard if and when the coming trade war ever ends).
Raven
Jorma is great and the religion is not something I’d notice anymore than when he plays Good Shepherd or I see the light!
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
Re the picture, someone took that lady’s pants.
NorthLeft12
@germy: Trump has been screaming at his cabinet and chief for about a year regarding tariffs. I remember a laughable exchange regarding trade where he kept asking “where are my tariffs?” and angrily berating [whats new] his staff that they were not bringing him any tariffs to put in place.
I guess he finally got what he wanted.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: Yes, if Commerce issues a national security finding. Which Ross did. This is an absolutely stunningly galactically stupid idea.
Magda in Black
@NorthLeft12:
Seems like a nice simple specific high profile jab/point made. Prob more aimed at the Big Boys than voters. But…..you’re asking me to think…..and I spent my week working with non-thinking republicans, so my thinking gears are rusty. ?
Davebo
@Roger Moore: They do have one very expensive line made in Greensboro, NC.
Adam L Silverman
Speaking of absolutely stunningly galactically stupid ideas!
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/01/politics/north-korea-trump-nuclear-missile-threat-red-line/index.html
Baud
All the anti-trade folks should have gone balls-to-the-wall to get Hillary elected after she agreed to revisit the TPP. Now their credibility will depend on how well Trump handles trade issues.
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): I sympathize.
DissidentFish
@–bd:
Bo*bies, however, look much the same. (Except in LA)
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
SHOW ME YOUR WAR FACE!
Davebo
@Adam L Silverman: He had to do something to continue to depress the market and this seems to have done the trick.
What can I say, he’s a stunningly galactically stupid guy.
efgoldman
@Adam L Silverman:
Majorx4 ought to write a macro which drops that in every post about the unmentioned one.
Another Scott
@patroclus: Take it up with the St. Louis FED.
;-p
Cheers,
Scott.
Ken
@DissidentFish: Please! That’s clearly an artistic work, so they should be called “nudes”, not “bo*bies”.
Adam L Silverman
@germy:
Unfortunately he wasn’t furious at himself, Ross, and Navarro for being so stupid.
Amir Khalid
@Another Scott:
This is also the practice at iconic American guitar brands Fender and Gibson, I have learned. All I keep hearing about Gibson is that they’re half a billion dollars in debt (amazingly, only half of what JarJar is in hock for!) and going bust.
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
“We had to destroy the economy in order to save it.”
Adam L Silverman
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): And your point is?//
Roger Moore
I’m sure they would have put a tariff on anything Trump made if his companies actually made anything.
Adam L Silverman
@NorthLeft12: From the reporting, apparently it was Rob Porter who had sidelined the tariff insanity and managed to keep it sidelined. Remove Porter and no one is specifically tasked with preventing the destruction of the US economy.
Adam L Silverman
@DissidentFish: And South Beach.
efgoldman
@Roger Moore:
They could put an excise tax on grift
Gravenstone
@Adam L Silverman: So we’re gonna recall Sen. Graham to active duty and ship him off to the Korean peninsula to join the first wave of any invasion, right?
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: Apparently. Even Hewitt seems to be freaking out, which is kind of hard given he always appears to be completely baked on Jeff Sessions’ favorite gateway drug. Of course, since it’s Hewitt, he has to revise history in order to freak out.
Adam L Silverman
@Roger Moore: Everything his companies make is made in China, so kind of hard for the PRC to put a tariff on it.
Adam L Silverman
@Gravenstone: One of my former students and a good friend, a USAF colonel, refers to Senator Graham as “that’s our Lindsay”. And his voice drips with sarcasm and he rolls his eyes.
NotMax
@Adam L.Silverman
And, in the now typical ‘would screw up a one-person nose picking contest’ way they operate –
Another Scott
@Amir Khalid: US guitar makers got decimated when Guitar Center had huge financial issues. Naturally, Bain Capital had its fingers in the pie:
Of course, most popular music in the US isn’t guitar-based any more, so that’s putting huge pressure on guitar makers as well.
Cheers,
Scott.
patroclus
@Another Scott: I think I’ll stick with the actual facts and the publically available knowledge of the markets caps of Bank of China, ICBC, ABC, Bank of Communications and the CCB, as well as each of their AMC’s and the insurance giants like PICC and, of course CIC and the ITIC’s located in each province and SAR’s. The PBOC has been decentralized for over a decade and Americans (including the lightly regarded St. Louis Fed) should learn about all of the various individual entities, how they are organized, how much they are publically owned and the impetus driving each of their individual behaviors.
John Revolta
@Adam L Silverman: “Ah’m not sayin’ we wouldn’t get ar hayuh mussed…………”
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@Adam L Silverman: I conclude she lives in a warmer climate than I do.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: As I stated before the inauguration (and this is probably not word for word, so more like a paraphrase):
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: Because there is no difference in making and selling quality guitars as there is doing business consulting. Completely interchangeable skill sets. Same with Cerberus and Remington.
Another Scott
@patroclus: Ok, I’ll defer to your obviously better knowledge than mine.
But we’ll see what happens, if anything.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@John Revolta: War on the Korean peninsula in the 21st Century would make what the Iron Brigade did to the Confederates near the Dunker Church at Antietam, Pickett’s Charge at Gettysburg, the trench warfare of WW I, Guadalcanal in WW II, and the battle of the Chosin Reservoir during the Korean War look like a kid’s party with cupcakes, a piñata, a bounce house, and a pony.
patroclus
@Adam L Silverman: No. The applicable statutes are the Trading with the Enemy Act (which allows the POTUS to impose tariffs in a time of war) and the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (which authorizes the POTUS to impose tariffs in the event of a POTUS “finding” of a national emergency). Both TWEA and IEEPA are administered by the Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (“OFAC”) and it is therefore up to Mnuchin, not Ross. Like I said above, Mnuchin can slow-walk it for awhile, but probably not indefinitely.
Adam L Silverman
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): Or they have central heating.
Another Scott
@Adam L Silverman: Yup.
It’s been proven, over and over again, that a top-flight MBA gives a person skills so that they can manage anything…
(groucho-roll-eyes.gif)
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@patroclus: Okay. There are two issues here:
1) Officially the US is not at war anywhere. Without a declaration of war, I don’t see how the first one actually is in play.
2) Given that the only national emergency finding we have right now is in regard to terrorism, specifically non-state actor terrorist groups that don’t produce steel or aluminum, here too the law isn’t applicable.
That doesn’t mean this won’t hold up, just that the legal cover is thin to non-existent.
Calouste
Note that the US is imposing tariffs on raw materials, but the EU in retaliation is imposing tariffs on finished consumer goods. Making foreign raw materials more expensive hurts your own industry. Making foreign finished goods more expensive just shifts the market to your own producers. Europeans are just going to buy Nortons and Ducatis instead of Harleys, and scotch instead of bourbon.
James E. Powell
@Another Scott:
Guitar Center sells everything.
John Revolta
@Adam L Silverman: There would also be a downside.
Another Scott
@Adam L Silverman: It would be interesting to see a detailed comparison of what Trump is proposing to do with aluminum and steel with what Obama did with Chinese tires in 2009. Here’s a 2016 story comparing Obama’s actions with Trump’s campaign proposals.
It feels like Trump’s people are skipping some steps that Obama went through, but it might be that the reporting is different. Dunno.
Cheers,
Scott.
frosty
@NorthLeft12: Harleys are assembled in York PA. Not a completely red state yet, and one of the bigger employers in the County.
Another Scott
@James E. Powell: I haven’t been able to find a linky this evening, but my recollection is that something like 50% of Gibson’s and/or Fender’s sales were through Guitar Center. GC having problems directly contributed to Gibson’s and Fender’s problems.
Corrections welcome.
[eta:] But I guess I misunderstood. Yeah, they sell drum machines dual turntables and the like that hip-hop artists might use. But Apple probably has taken a lot of hardware sales with Garage Band and the like…
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: There’s no real policy process here. There’s no real strategy development to implement the policy. This is just something the President and Navarro have been arguing for for decades. Both have been very, very pro tariffs for ever.
patroclus
@Adam L Silverman: Sort of. Technically, the findings authorizing both the economic sanctions against the DPRK and Cuba in the Foreign Assets Control Regulations and the Cuban Assets Control Regulations were authorized pursuant to TWEA and TWEA was amended in 1933 (to close the banks) to operate in peacetime as well as war times (although it has never been used merely to implement tariffs). Moreover, the conflict in Korea was never officially terminated – only the Panmunjon Armistice applies.
Under IEEPA, we are currently under roughly 128 POTUS “findings” of national emergencies – which apply to all of the myriad economic sanctions that the U.S. currently has in place. (You name the country – I can name the sanctions – it is VAST!) Go to the OFAC site for a complete listing – aside from the military, OFAC is the most active implementer and administrator of economic foreign policy.
That said, I agree with you -there really isn’t a “national emergency” with respect to Canadian steel – it’s laughable. But the courts have ALWAYS deferred to OFAC and the presidential findings they promulgate. Basically, if the POTUS says it, they uphold it. It is very unlikely that they would overturn a POTUS finding under either TWEA or IEEPA. A suit might temporarily delay things, but not indefinitely. The legal cover is non-existent here, but historically, all they have ever needed is the fig leaf of a Presidential “finding.”
Another Scott
@Calouste: Excellent point.
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@patroclus: There was no declaration of war for the Korean conflict.
charluckles
@Adam L Silverman:
Has the Republican Party been taken over by ghouls? It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Davebo
@Gravenstone: Really hard to get farther from the front line than Air Force JAG officer.
frosty
@Another Scott: If MARS and GC hadn’t rolled into town like Walmart and shut down independent retailers who’d been local for decades, then Fender and Gibson would still have outlets. This is not only an MBA/Bain issue, it’s an overall monopoly issue (cf Amazon). Where’s TR the trust buster when we need him?
nasruddin
@frosty: York Co – red
Adam L Silverman
@charluckles: No. Senator Graham thinks he’s good at national security and foreign policy issues, despite all evidence to the contrary. Bless his heart
Another Scott
@Adam L Silverman: Commerce says it’s going through the motions and waiting for a US ITC finding about Chinese aluminum foil (from February).
Obama used the US ITC finding to put in place the tariffs on Chinese tires.
Yes, Trump’s minions are generally ignoring rules and norms, but at least part of the normal process seems to be happening here with these proposed tariffs on aluminum and steel.
We’ll see what happens, if anything.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@frosty: Another excellent point.
The MBAs are going to continue to destroy the US economy if something isn’t done. And continue to enrich themselves in the process… :-(
Cheers,
Scott.
patroclus
@Adam L Silverman: Right. We don’t declare war anymore and only occasionally, do we authorize the use of military force (by Congress). All of that has been delegated to OFAC, as it was with Korea in 1950. There, Truman made a “finding” of a national emergency under TWEA and it is still in force because there was never a peace treaty or a new finding or Congressional action. “No dealings” between U.S. persons and DPRK persons are allowed by U.S. banks or businesses and they haven’t been allowed since that finding and the promulgation of the Foreign Assets Control Regulations. Effectively, we remain “at war” economically as we have been for 68 years even though was never neither a declaration of war nor a Congressional authorization of the use of military force.
Sam Rayburn (and Congress) acquiesced to Truman on this issue regarding Korea because he thought that the POTUS and OFAC could act more expeditiously than lengthy Congressional debates regarding these issues. It all started with Korea and was a huge political issue at the time (Truman described it as a “police action” of the UN) needing no Congressional action other than funding. Its precursors were FDR’s declarations of unlimited national emergencies imposing an asset freeze and what turned out to be a trade embargo against Japan in 1940 and 1941. But no UN existed then, so Korea is really the starting point for OFAC’s vast powers.
Ken B
@Adam L Silverman:
Didn’t the Chinese give the Trump organizations a lot of patents andor trademarks last year, as a thinly hidden bribe?
What’s to stop them from scratching their heads and saying, “Mistakes were made, we’re pulling them”?
And how well would Trump properties do in Europe if they found themselves facing serious health code monitoring? What if any building with the Trump name on it started getting extra regulatory attention?
What if Deutsche Bank called in his loans?
Also, I suspect the US IC, and Mueller, may find themselves getting even more cooperation than they already are.
matt
I like that they’re being so targeted with shithole state stuff. Makes me think they’re keeping closer track of things than a lot of folks (like US political media).
mad citizen
@NorthLeft12: “The Guardian has an interesting article on the complete failure of the “Clean Coal” project.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/02/clean-coal-america-kemper-power-plant
I am wondering if this story gets much traction in the US media.”
I saw your post–this is my job area. Don’t you mean “beautiful clean coal”? We have a functioning Clean Coal plant in my state–Indiana. The original estimate was around $1.9 billion; final cost around $4 billion. And it has operational issues, but is doing much better lately. Aside from working on the case, I’m also a customer so get to pay for it as part of my monthly bill. Of course in 2008-09, no one saw the extent of shale gas.
Even a recent conventional coal plant plant suffered similar cost overrun issues, Prairie State in Illinois. These days everyone is building gas, and of course wind, solar is here and storage may be coming soon. Even fusion is still being worked on, and could be commercial in fifteen years or so.
Amir Khalid
@Adam L Silverman:
The big grumbles about Gibson’s recent US-made product are iffy quality control, innovations that don’t work well, and ugly aesthetics. There’s a widespread feeling that a Gibson Les Paul is not worth the typical 300% premium over the equivalent Epiphone-branded guitar. (Epiphone Inc, a Gibson unit,makes cheaper versions of Gibson guitars as well as its own models.) Gibson also took on a lot of debt for a diversification into “music lifestyle” that hasn’t paid off. It still makes a profit on guitars, though, and that business might yet survive the looming Gibson Brands bankruptcy.
frosty
@nasruddin: Absolutely. In 2008 my Democratic Party contact said that if we could get York County to 34% we’d win PA. We hit 36% and took it (numbers are close but may not be exact).
patroclus
@Another Scott: That’s another possible authorizing statute – which would be under Ross (as Adam stated), not Mnuchin. I think Bush used that one for his brief tariffs as well. The difference is that those are imposed for temporary durations and require periodic new findings (like under the Iran deal) whereas the TWEA and IEEPA sanctions are for an indefinite period and basically never end until and unless the underlying conflict is fully resolved. Which is what Trump said he was going to do. (Not that he knows what he is talking about). Hence, they are less permanent and more likely to be subject to legal challenge. It is possible that Mnuchin and OFAC will balk and that the Commerce ITC sanctions will be relied on instead. Like you said, we’ll see.
frosty
@mad citizen: Fusion will always be commercial in 15 (or 20) years or so. Nevertheless, hope it’s more likely this decade.
Adam L Silverman
@patroclus: No arguments here. If we were going to slap the tariff on steel and aluminum from the DPRK, then this would all make sense. That lack of coherence is not your fault, you’re just the messenger.
Brachiator
The crazy thing is that Trump supporters don’t care. They are sustained by Trump’s resentment, have made it their own and don’t care whether these policies are counterproductive or self destructive. They want to stick it to anyone who defies America.
This echoes what is happening in the UK. A recent report suggests that BREXIT will hurt the areas of the country that voted for it. A minister dismissed the report, saying experts are always wrong. And the most strident BREXIT supporters angrily lash out against anyone who points out problems or suggests caution. There is also a fantasy that the US and the UK will form an economic alliance that will stick it to the Europeans.
And here in the US the craziest thing of all is that the GOP leadership will go along with anything that Trump says. It goes beyond loyalty. It is positively servile.
Adam L Silverman
@Ken B: Yes they did. They approved a bunch shortly after the inauguration ahead of his visit to the PRC. These were both for Trump Org and for Ivanka’s branded companies.
frosty
@Amir Khalid: True, Epis are good value. I had QC issues on a Korean Epi bass that were pretty easily resolved.
There should be *none* on. USA Gibson.
Adam L Silverman
@Amir Khalid: I do not play the guitar. I do not follow guitar issues. I will take your word on all of this.
Steve in the ATL
@Another Scott:
I get hit with ULP charges all the time. It ain’t no thang. It’s just an accusation by a union that a company is doing something they don’t like. May or may not have merit. Doesn’t cost the union any money; anyone with a crayon and a piece of paper can file one.
ETA: It’s also common for first contracts to take a long time, as the company doesn’t have experience with labor and doesn’t know how to do it. Plus, usually the company really doesn’t want to do it.
GC seems like a company that really needs a union. Probably every company owned by Bain and similar bastards.
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: Amir speaks the truth. As does frosty. Who hopefully stays that way.
patroclus
@Adam L Silverman: Indeed. There is no national emergency involving Canada in force and there has never been any “finding” of one. It’s patently absurd. Which is why they are focusing on China, which is the world’s largest steel producer but doesn’t export all that much to the U.S. And arguably, China has been “dumping” it on other countries, driving the world market price down. But the statute authorizing the Commerce findings requires actual economic facts and data to prove the “dumping” (in accordance with WTO processes) which is why it must be continually updated with new such facts. This isn’t what Trump wants, would be difficult to really prove and would be challengable at both the WTO and in U.S. courts. Which is why, I think, that Trump has signaled that he wants to go the TWEA/IEEPA route, which is essentially b.s. If Mnuchin and OFAC balk, though and it gets tied up with the WTO, it’s possible that the harmful effect of Trump’s nonsense can be minimized, at least for awhile.
Ol'Froth
I always thought Harley’s were made in York, PA?
Another Scott
@patroclus: Thanks for your extended input on this thread. It’s always great to get real-time posts from people who know what they’re talking about and aren’t just informed (to variable degrees!) lay people. That’s one of the great things about this blog!
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@Steve in the ATL: I believe them both.
Corner Stone
@Another Scott:
For Pope’s sake, whatever you do, do NOT mention the word laity.
Adam L Silverman
@patroclus: Yep.
Though my understanding is there will be a full push by the sane advisors (everyone but Navarro and Ross) between now and next week’s signing of the order to try to get this back in the box and keep it from happening.
efgoldman
@Steve in the ATL:
I believe the office paper company (name escapes me) that Mittster hollowed out, bankrupted and put out of business had at least some union workers. Didn’t help
efgoldman
@patroclus:
You attribute thinking processes and decision making to hair furor that simply doesn’t exist. Think four year old.
Ladyraxterinok
@Adam L Silverman: Is there a rule of unintended consequences?
Steve in the ATL
@Ladyraxterinok: it’s more of a guideline
Another Scott
@Steve in the ATL: Thanks.
I know you get a lot of (overwhelmingly good natured!) grief here. I appreciate your input.
Cheers,
Scott.
Steve in the ATL
@Another Scott: no grief I get here compares to the grief I get from the union thugs I deal with every day, and no grief I get from union thugs compares to the grief I get from my wife and daughters!
Another Scott
@Steve in the ATL: All of it well deserved, I’m sure!!
;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
They want to stick it to anyone who defies their version/vision of America.
FIXIT for you.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
He is their leader and most of them are not close enough to smart to realize that drumpf is bad for anyone who associates with him. Either they think they can profit off of him for their own ends or they think they can profit off of the chaos for their own ends. Also a lot of their ends are in line with drumpf’s so that just puts them back in the same place. If they were smart they would bail tomorrow. But if they were smart enough to do that they wouldn’t be republicans in the first place. We get bullshit because that’s all the entire party knows any more. Their owners want it that way. Because that’s pretty much all their owners know as well.
efgoldman
@Another Scott:
Especially from daughters (I speak from experience)
Brachiator
@Ruckus:
I think it lines up only with respect to bigotry and hatred. But even here, Trump exploits this hatred to enrich himself, his family and his plutocrat buddies. Everybody else is a chump who is going to end up with nothing.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
Oh I don’t disagree with this very much. I’m just saying there are no innocent conservative victims here. I do think though that it’s also about grift and corruption, which is bubbling just under the surface and if it’s exposed it will burn a lot of conservative pols, not just drumpf. He most likely will suffer the most because he’s in way, way, way, way over his head. And has been elected head snake.
As a side note I think a lot of conservative pols are backing him simply because they think that he will suffer for them. I don’t think it’s going to work that way. He maybe stupid but as you made the point, he will throw everyone but himself under that bus. That will of course make it much more obvious how deep he’s in the shit.
Jack the Cold Warrior
@Mary G:
NC is a purple state, voted for Obama twice and B. Clinton once and would be a D state in Congress If we weren’t the most gerrymandered state in the US. We have progressive/liberal bastions in the Research Triangle (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill), Asheville, and almost every college town.
Our recent off year local elections have seen a strong surge to progressives. My city, Salisbury, just elected several progressives to the city council, including our first Black (and Female) Mayor and a lesbian councilwoman. We are going to work like hell to get rid of a lot of R legislators this year, as well as Congress critters.
Please contribute to Act Blue!
lowtechcyclist
@Adam L Silverman:
And Lindsey Graham says there’s a 30% chance that Trump will launch a first strike on North Korea, and he says that goes up to 70% if NK does one more nuclear test.
If that’s anything close to the truth, AFAIAC the GOP is committing treason by not impeaching and removing Trump yesterday, as he constitutes a clear and present danger to the U.S. and its allies. Ditto Pence and Trump’s Cabinet for not exercising 25th Amendment remedies. Hell, if Lindsey believes that, he should take matters into his own hands and off Trump the next time they meet.
As I lack means, talent, and stomach for political assassination, I can only hope that Sen. Graham is wildly wrong.