Jared Kushner's father responds to the multiple federal, state and local investigations into the family business: “Go knock yourselves out for the next 10 years. We didn’t do anything wrong.” https://t.co/kSitAs4qCs
— Amy Fiscus (@amyfiscus) April 1, 2018
Whatever their weakness for the current Oval Office occupant, the NYTimes spares little sympathy for yet another scheming NYC real-estate developer…
It was sweet redemption for Charles Kushner last year when his son Jared was named senior White House adviser. A dozen years earlier, a sordid scandal stemming partly from a family falling-out had reduced the senior Mr. Kushner from real estate baron to felon making wallets at a prison camp in Alabama.
Now, with his son newly installed as a top aide to the president, Mr. Kushner even expressed hope, one close family friend said, that he might receive a pardon.
Absolution, however, is not what the White House has conferred on the Kushners. For the patriarch and his family, the pinnacle of American political power has turned out to be a wellspring of trouble.
Jared Kushner is embroiled in the special counsel inquiry, including questions about whether he discussed the family’s business with foreign officials — a suggestion he has denied. His younger brother, Josh, has opposed the Trump presidency, driving a wedge between the men in a family that prizes close ties.
The elder Mr. Kushner, his company and his family are assailed by criminal and regulatory inquiries largely rooted in their newfound access to presidential power. The family’s East Coast-based real estate empire is under a fiscal and ethical cloud, shunned by some investors who fear being dragged into the spotlight trained on the Kushner nexus with President Trump. Two major Manhattan properties are on creditors’ watch lists, one after foreign investors backed out of a financing deal…
Charles Kushner is adamant that his family remains united in the face of their difficulties. But friends say Jared Kushner’s sister is distressed by investigators’ focus on her, and there are tensions between Jared and Josh over Mr. Trump. That Josh Kushner, 32, has made no secret of the fact that he did not vote for Mr. Trump upset his brother, several friends said. Voting records show Josh Kushner did not vote in the 2016 presidential election. Josh’s spokesman, Jesse Derris, said the brothers “are just as close as ever.”…
[N.B.: That statement can be read two ways]
The Kushners have weathered ordeals before and emerged stronger and more prosperous. In 2004, Charles Kushner pleaded guilty to 18 counts of witness retaliation, tax violations and false statements to the Federal Election Commission after he hired a prostitute in a scheme to entrap and retaliate against his brother-in-law, who he suspected was cooperating with a federal inquiry into his business.
Charles Kushner still does not speak to his brother, whom he publicly blamed for instigating the investigation that led to his two-year prison sentence. Asked whether he hoped for presidential absolution, Mr. Kushner said, “I would prefer not to have a pardon” because it would trigger only further publicity.
His real estate empire is now under a national microscope, its every deal scrutinized for hints of federal influence. And while Charles Kushner insists his bankers are loyal, investors are eager and deals are plentiful, some business associates say the drumbeat of unflattering headlines is putting tremendous pressure on the family business. Banks must assess the risk of any continuing regulatory or criminal inquiries before making loans; potential investors are worried that they could come under scrutiny or that projects will be delayed or fall apart…
In my lifelong experience with dysfunctional families, We all stick together tends to be said less as a profession of innocence than as a call for omerta.
And I’ve read many economists asserting that My bankers are loyal and deals are plentiful all too frequently means I owe those mooks so much they have to keep throwing good money after bad, but in my favor, there’s a sucker born every minute.
Maybe I’m just a cynic!
dmsilev
But with all this, how can Jared possibly find time to bring peace to the Middle East, fix America’s infrastructure, cure cancer, and still turn a healthy and TOTALLY LEGITIMATE, REALLY profit on his real estate holdings?
FlyingToaster
@dmsilev: Jared lost money on rental property in SOMERVILLE. Jeebus fucking Christ, I don’t understand how that’s even possible.
rikyrah
Orange jumpsuits for ALL?
Ryan
Mario Puzo on line 2, he’s been asked to make a sitcom version of the original. Second time as farce and all.
Wag
Does anyone else’s head spin from the cognitive dissonance at the NYT? On the one hand there are clearly thoughtful pieces that express the rage about what is happening to the country, then the next piece is an outright apology to the Trump administration. My head spins, I know for sure.
Adam L Silverman
There is only one important deal left for Jared Kushner. It isn’t refinancing 666 5th Avenue. It isn’t between the Israelis and the Palestinians. It is whatever Bob Mueller offers him. If he fails to close that deal, well let’s just say it isn’t going to be pretty or pleasant.
Jared Kushner and his father are a cautionary tale. That the perseverance and personal courage of Jared’s grandparents in fleeing to the forests and joining the Bielsky partisans has given way within one generation to a scumbag and crook in their son and in two generations to a dimwitted nebbish in their grandson. Jared’s grandparents built a fortune and made a good name for themselves out of the ashes and destruction of their lives by the NAZIs. Jared has managed to squander it all away because he lacks the self awareness to recognize that he’s a moron.
Ryan
@dmsilev: Every week is Infrastructure Week, how can he fail?
Ruckus
@FlyingToaster:
He’s incompetent?
ETA Adam got there first, Jarad is a moron. And here I was giving him some credit as just being incompetent. I must be losing my touch.
To Anne’s post – Crime families usually do stick together, right up until the moment that each member has to face criminal charges and then all bets are off. Why should this one be any different?
GregB
I really think you should leave Jared alone. He is working miracles on the Israeli-Palestinian cause.
Adam L Silverman
@Wag: Given that WaPo published this today…
Ryan
@Adam L Silverman: AKA regression to the mean, where we all lie (generally).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
good– someone said on MSNBC today that Jared’s greatest fear is going to federal prison like his father. I don’t know whether the facilities in NY states institutions are more comfortable. If I could bet a thousand dollars that Jared will be pardoned within the next twelve months, I’d be sorely tempted to place that bet. Schneiderman, our nation turns its eyes to you.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Adam L Silverman: I read the first three paragraphs. I think whatever editor approved that for publication really dislikes that writer
Adam L Silverman
@Ruckus: Correct. Jared has only one thing to trade – the President. That’s it. He has to decide what he actually values.
Adam L Silverman
@Ryan: Darwin’s theory of devolution.
Anne Laurie
@Adam L Silverman: Or, as my people gleefully phrase it: Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations!
Mary G
@Adam L Silverman: That woman is a moron, too.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: There are no club Fed equivalents in NY state at the state prison system level. His only chance is to cut a deal with Mueller that keeps all penalties at the Federal level. He will do very, very, very, very poorly in a NY state correctional facility.
Ruckus
@Adam L Silverman:
I’m going to go with a slightly better description of Jared. Chickenshit moron. What that means is that he will not understand exactly when he steps in deep shit but he will know when he’s up to his earlobes. Trouble is that may be too late to get a deal. That’s the moron part kicking in.
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman:
Yep. And, really, it’s not about Jared closing that deal. He’s not smart enough. He’s going to need lawyers smart enough to get him a deal and then he has to be smart enough to take it. He’s got the money for the first. The second, well, we know he’s not that smart.
And what will Ivanka do?
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Apparently she plagiarized herself. She’d previously written almost the exact same post about guys who were dating her just so they could get Hamilton tickets since she’s a media writer or something.
I’ve dated Jewish women, Catholic women, Protestant women, agnostic women, Irish American women, African women, Asian American women, English women, and Scottish women. Issues of compatibility, if there were any, always revolved around how our personalities and temperaments played with and off each other’s – not over issues of religious observance. Do I know some people, Jewish and not Jewish, that only want to date and eventually marry people of their own faith? Certainly. But this article was just nuts. Inappropriate. And given one of the current national sub-contexts of anti-Semitism being dragged from the right most extreme back towards the center, it should never have been published.
Major Major Major Major
I really do want to see J-Kush go down the most. After Il Douche himself of course, that goes without saying.
MJS
@Adam L Silverman: Adam, you normally seem pretty level-headed on these things. Like when you tell us all there is no pee tape. Do you really think it is going to come to Kushner ratting out Trump?
Feebog
Jeezbus, plead guilty to 18 counts and you get 2 years? That’s rich white privledge at work right there. Next time I plead guilty to 18 counts I want the same lawyer and judge.
dmsilev
@Adam L Silverman:
Oh no, it will be very pleasant…for those of us watching.
Adam L Silverman
@Anne Laurie: Yep.
FlyingToaster
@Ruckus: If you live in Boston, there are two gold mine rental areas. The 3-deckers in Somerville, and the 3-deckers and apartment blocks in Allston. Every grad student in the area lives in one or the other, including our Potus44 when he was at Harvard Law. I lived in Somerville for 15 years (02144-represent!) and you have to be a Harvard undergraduate with no fucking sense to lose money.
Jared tried to go into a deal with a local developer while cutting corners. He had to write a check that wiped out his rental earnings to get it to go away — or face a very public lawsuit that would have cascaded way beyond one payout, and possibly landed him in MCI-South Middlesex.
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: Once a willowy shiksa, always a willowy shiksa.
More seriously, I have no idea. I read something last week that indicated, based on remarks from those close to her who had been granted anonymity to speak candidly, that she is much more loyal to her husband than to her father. And more protective of her husband too. Which may be because the Kushner’s actually have money, as opposed to pretending to have money. Only time will tell though what happens.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
always been my hunch that if push comes to shove, she’ll go with Jared, because I suspect that even if 666 goes belly up, the Ks will have enough left over to use summer as a verb and ski in Aspen, or at least Snowmass
….adding::
I think Ivanka has, if not the brains, the canny self-preservation instincts (like daddy) to get this, and I’m sure she can very persuasive.
Adam L Silverman
@MJS: I don’t know. Honestly, that is, from what I can tell, his only play. The President can’t pardon him for any crimes that NY State AG Schneiderman might charge him with. So his only real play is to take what Mueller may be willing to offer for the only thing that Kushner has to trade, which is the President. And then have good enough lawyers to ensure that the deal takes state level prosecutions in NY, Maryland, and DC off the table.
Is he smart enough to do this? I don’t get that impression. Are his lawyers good enough to push him to do this? I don’t know. My understanding is Abbe Lowell is the real deal and really knows his business. And the final, and perhaps most important question, is does Mueller actually need his cooperation? I don’t know.
Barbara
@Adam L Silverman: On the one hand, you can divorce a husband. OTOH her father will most likely be dead before her kids ate grown.
Gretchen
@Adam L Silverman: This LGM piece has some good responses to the oped that should never have been published: http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/04/wapo-shoots-another-brick
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: They’ll go the corporate bankruptcy route to keep their own, personal fortunes out of danger. It will hurt them, but they have enough to weather it.
Adam L Silverman
@Gretchen: Yep, saw that earlier. That’s how I knew she’d apparently repurposed a previous column substituting Jewish men for Hamilton ticket seeking men.
tobie
@Major Major Major Major: With this crew, there are so many you want to see go down, it’s hard to know who to put first. I think Jeff Sessions would be at the top of my wish list with Jared and Mike Pence tied for second.
If Paul Ryan gets caught up in Mueller’s dragnet, that would be dandy. And it goes without saying that nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing Trump go down.
Gretchen
I loved the part about the guy who hired a prostitute to film his sister’s husband cheating on her, indignant that anyone could think he did anything wrong? How could you think that?
I have the feeling that Jared is pretty stupid, and still doesn’t realize that he’s going to be making wallets in Alabama in due time. I hope.
justawriter
I suppose it’s just wishful thinking that all elected rethuglicans will be convicted, sentenced and imprisoned by 2019.
Gretchen
@Adam L Silverman: Which cements the conclusion that her dating problem isn’t Jewish men. She ought to listen to the twitter thread that recommends she confine her musing to her therapist for the time being.
Adam L Silverman
@tobie: Apparently Pappadapolous got drunk again, this time in Chicago, and told someone he met at a pub that he read Sessions on to the Russian offers of dirt on Clinton early on and that Sessions encouraged him and wanted that information.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/papadopoulos-night-club-sessions-russian-dirt-clinton
Dumbest criminals ever!
oldgold
The Trump Clan put the fun in dysfunctional.
Adam L Silverman
@Gretchen: Yep and yep.
Mary G
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I vaguely remember the days when Ivana confronted Marla Maples on a ski slope somewhere that broke the whole story of the affair, which led to Twitler’s first divorce, that all three kids sided with their mother. DJT Jr. stopped speaking to him for a year. I suspect Ivanka hasn’t forgotten. She’s witnessed her father’s behavior all her life and will know he’s liable to throw anyone under the bus at any moment.
Brachiator
@Adam L Silverman:
A devastating appraisal. It really makes you wonder what Trump sees in him.
tobie
@Adam L Silverman: It would be swell if Papadopoulos had Sessions on tape or, better yet, in an email asking him to get more dirt on Clinton via Mifsud. We can then start a new tag, “But his emails.” In the meantime, Papdopoulos better get control of his drinking. Whenever he’s drunk, he spills the beans.
El Caganer
@Adam L Silverman: In fairness to young Jared, ‘moron’ is a prized quality in the family he married into.
Ruckus
@Adam L Silverman:
I doubt that he needs Jared’s cooperation. But every block in the wall so to speak. But I agree that Jared may just be stupid enough to decline any deal. All the evidence that we’ve seen so far says too stupid and way too highly enamored of his own abilities to think he needs to accept one.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
A kindred spirit? Another chickenshit moron on his level? An apprentice in training?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mary G: in that movie about trust fund babies that the Johnson boy did, Ivanka tells the story of her father pointing to a homeless guy and saying, ‘that guy is eight billion dollars richer than me’, when he was in the middle of one of his bankruptcies. I suspect she’s never forgotten that. And while “smartest adult trump child’ may be damning with faint praise, I suspect that she’s the one who knows that the ‘audit’ excuse for not releasing his tax returns is bullshit.
Gretchen
@Ruckus: Yes, that’s his big problem. He thinks he’s brilliant, and even when it all comes crashing down and he follows his daddy into prison, he will be indignant that this could have happened to him. He deserves better! I wonder what the odds are of Ivanka getting arrested are.
Juju
@Adam L Silverman: I believe it is the rare moron who actually realizes they are a moron.
Adam L Silverman
@Brachiator: I have no idea.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Ruckus: a guy whose suits fit? who gets invited to the good parties in Manhattan and the Hamptons? who gets to actually fuck Ivanka, not just dream of it?
Mary G
Uh oh, DOJ just filed a “scope memo” they say was given to Mueller. Much is redacted:
Looks like they are going to try to cut off the investigation.
Adam L Silverman
@tobie: According to other reporting from three others in attendance at the foreign policy advising meeting during the campaign, the one with the picture of the President at one end of the table and the AG at the other running the meeting, Sessions offered no push back at all when Pappadapolous brought up that he’d been in touch with Russian officials and that they wanted to arrange a meeting with the President during the campaign. And that they had other things they wanted to help on. This directly contradicts Sessions’ statements before Congress on this matter.
You know who knows which account is true? Bob Mueller.
Gretchen
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: His suits don’t fit. He always looks like PeeWee Herman, suits a little to short and a little too tight. Probably over-compensating when he sees daddy-in-laws baggy duds. The whole family could benefit from a good tailor. Jared makes me laugh every time I see him.
Adam L Silverman
@Mary G: No, this is to rebut Manafort’s motion to dismiss charges on the basis that Mueller isn’t authorized to investigate his work in Ukraine.
Brachiator
Yeah, this personal essay was certainly unpleasant. Must have been a slow news day.
Mary G
@Adam L Silverman: Oh, good. I was worried that instead of firing Mueller they were going to try to say he couldn’t investigate other things like finances. Republican congressmembers have been saying stuff like that. Some nerve after Ken Starr took Whitewater all the way to the blue dress.
Adam L Silverman
@Mary G: From what I can tell, from what Heath reported in that thread, they were simply providing clarification for the court. A lot of it is redacted, so who knows what we’re not seeing.
Adam L Silverman
@Mary G: I don’t think much is being limited:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/04/revealed-mueller-investigating-consulting-firm-ties-kushners-middle-east-policy-point-man/
Adam L Silverman
Ugh. I’ll have more on this tomorrow or Wednesday:
trollhattan
@Gretchen:
Nothing funnier than John Oliver dubbing Gilbert Gottfried in for Jerad’s voice. Serious man is serious.
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: The original memo is pretty broad. As I recall, it’s to investigate Russian interference in the election and related matters that may arise. Since this memo is being released to refute Manafort’s contention, it’s possible there are other memos as well.
trollhattan
@Adam L Silverman:
Our Trumper asshole sheriff Scott Jones declared today those are “paid protesters” and they have zuper zecret undercover proof.
Mind, it was city cops that shot Clark with a sheriff heli overhead, guiding.
afanasia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think the self preservation skills , as opposed to instincts, may derive from her mother, who’s done well enough, if you consider where she started. If Trump were trapped on an island with unsupervised third graders, he’d end up being Piggy.
inDC
I’ve always had a pet theory for what’s really going on with Jared/Ivanka/Trump.
Trumps on the record stating he wants to fuck/date his daughter and there are some horrible pictures out there as well. We also know he hung around with known child fuckers and he’s admitted to sexual assault himself.
I suspect that something happened between Trump and his daughter that she could use to blackmail him. So in addition to his obvious attraction to her he’s being extra kind to make up for and hope she never talks about it in the open. I’m talking molestation on some level if not outright incest. I think Ivanka has used this to keep her and Jareds favor with Trump himself. This also protects them completely from any bad headlines Jared generates while trying to use his political post to bailout his failed business ventures.
Donald can’t lay a finger on Jared or Ivanka because of this and he can’t afford to let anyone else either no matter what they do.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: That’s pretty much my take. Until Wittes or Zaid or Moss or Rangappa or Mariotti or Bahrara or Painter or Schaub or Wine-Banks, etc start freaking out on twitter, there’s nothing much to do.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: wow, that is bad. Why did I inflict that on myself and finish it? I guess at a certain point I just had to see how the train wreck ended.
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: I’m sure. If I recall the Elders were discussing the financing for this during new business at the last meeting.//
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: You had time to kill and an underdeveloped sense of self preservation?
trnc
@Brachiator:
Ye$, one can only $urmi$e what $omeone like Trump would $ee in $omeone like Ku$hner.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman:
God does that describe me.
Adam L Silverman
This was great. I thought Painter was going to reach through the TV and smack Hewitt:
Also, why does Hewitt always looked stoned out of his gourd?
MisterForkbeard
Thread looks dead ish, but if anyone is interested in The Saga Of Crazy Nephew-in-Law, it’s gotten worse. Apparently his grandparents called the state troops on him today, and they checked him out. They essentially said he was obviously crazy as a loon, but wasn’t immediately threatening anyone so they were leaving him in place without a warning or anything else.
Meanwhile, he tried to engage me in conversation tonight and it rapidly turned into this: https://imgur.com/HO8NPCT – there’s another 4 pages of similar stuff, and some more since – and now, hes following that up “I’m fighting so much” – I asked what he was fighting, and he said “External Control. But you knew that. You know I control most of the world now? I’m everywhere. Yet nowhere.”
And then a minute later with “I am the eternally damned soul you all created to fight your stupid war. Play your stupid games. While you constantly oppose me, thinking I’m ‘sick'”.
danielx
@Adam L Silverman:
Depends on one’s perspective. I’m kind of looking forward to it..
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman: Richard Painter always cracks me up. He’s so done with these corrupt, treasonous Republicans and he doesn’t mince words.
I don’t think Hewitt looks stoned. He comes across to me as high on his sense of himself as inherently superior to those around him.
Anne Laurie
@Adam L Silverman:
Will keep on saying this: Ivanka and Jared, IMO, bonded over the fact that they both grew up with narcissistic, overbearing, criminal fathers. They perceive themselves as fellow victims, crouched in a corner of the lifeboat, hoping the mutineers will kill the Old Man and forget the Nextgen’s existence.
Unfortunately for her, I think Ivanka is more protective of Jared than he is of anyone but himself — but that’s how these familial tragedies usually work out, isn’t it? If anyone from the Trump orbit survives, it’s gonna be Ivanka; even given her vast sense of entitlement, she’s by far the brightest & strongest of the kids, and she’s got her own kids to protect, too.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman: Priutt to Trump: I leaned it from watching you, dad.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: All the surveillance has resulted in a highly accurate profile.//
cwmoss
@Adam L Silverman: That would be DEVO’s theory of devolution!
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: He always looks fully baked to me.
cynthia ackerman
@Juju:
I feel special.
Adam L Silverman
@MisterForkbeard: I’m so sorry you all are going through this.
trnc
@Adam L Silverman:
I think that’s his “Hell, yes, I’m the smartest in this room and all other rooms that I’m not even in!” look. He’s been working on it for a long time, although now that you mention it, he may have plenty of time to do that between bong hits.
eclare
@MisterForkbeard: That is terrifying! Any way to call the police back?
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
My question is this: how the hell did Josh turn out to be the decent son out of this family (and therefore the black sheep)?
Major Major Major Major
@MisterForkbeard: how terrible that must be.
Adam L Silverman
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: Spent a lot of time with the grandparents? Actually paid attention at synagogue? Nobody knows…
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@MisterForkbeard:
Yikes. He needs to be institutionalized for his own safety. I’d worry about calling the police only because of the possibility of violence.
Does he have a history of mental illness?
Brachiator
@Adam L Silverman:
Hewitt used to appear on a public affairs show on a Los Angeles PBS station. He was always a smarmy little shit, but he would try harder to pretend that he had a sense of ethics.
Steeplejack
@Yarrow:
Hewitt is holding onto his blinders with a two-handed death grip. He sees only what he wants to see. In that segment tonight he stayed focused on his narrow statement that some EPA drone had ruled that the $50-a-night room was not an ethical violation, and he would not hear anything else. And he admitted, I think, that he has known the lobbyist for 25 years. So no conflict at all. Nothing to see here; move along.
I just wish someone had hit him with the fact (reported elsewhere) that, in addition to the $50 room, Pruitt’s daughter was living for free in the rest of the apartment.
Gretchen
@MisterForkbeard: That sounds bad. I hope he gets help. Let us know what happens and stay safe.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Adam L Silverman:
However he did it, it was a miracle. Although he didn’t vote in 2016, so good is relative; couldn’t even bring himself to vote for the good Dr. Stein?
Baud
OT. Kevin Drum
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/04/maybe-politicians-dont-really-represent-anybody/
MisterForkbeard
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: He does. He’s actually attempted suicide (he says) 6 times, though the recorded number is 2 times, both when he was much younger.
The good news to all this (and thank you all again for your concern and sympathies) is that he just explicitly threatened to attempt suicide if his “patience was tested further”, and then said he’d made his boundaries clear. His boundaries appear to be “if anyone goes into my room, or tries to make me go to the doctor.” I took a screenshot and sent it to his aunt. We think it’s enough to get him forcibly committed tomorrow morning.
It’s really sad. Even two weeks ago, he was a little off but nowhere near this. He was spending all day in his room, but he claimed he was working on a video game and was really obsessed with design documents and long-term plans. I think getting evicted from his uncle’s house and losing his computer (and weed/alcohol) just broke him in a really fundamental way – or at least removed anything he might use to distract himself from those thoughts.
Mnemosyne
@MisterForkbeard:
Yikes! As eclare said, see if you can call the cops and add this information to their report.
I know we were hoping for a voluntary commitment, but now it may need to be involuntary for everyone’s protection.
MisterForkbeard
@Major Major Major Major: I’d be pretty happy if Kushner went down hard. I don’t think it would actually affect Trump much – his followers would believe it was either a setup by the liberal FBI or that Trump was the actual victim in the whole mess. Which might actually be true in a fashion – Trump’s relationship with his entire cabinet could probably be described as Elder Abuse in some ways.
@Mnemosyne: Yeah. At this point I’ve given up on voluntary commitment. It’s escalating pretty rapidly, but I think he’s asleep now.
Bonus note: He told ME to go to sleep so he could stop hearing my “dumb thoughts and emotions”. So there’s that.
Villago Delenda Est
These vile creatures need to be thrown into the Dragon Dungeon of the Red Keep and forgotten.
Baud
@MisterForkbeard: Sorry to hear that. Hope he gets help.
Mnemosyne
@MisterForkbeard:
As I was saying towards the end of the other thread, weed + psychosis is a very bad combination, because it makes the existing psychosis worse.
Adam L Silverman
@MisterForkbeard:
He was self medicating two weeks ago. Once the self medication was taken away he began to get worse. You want him to level out, let him drink and light up. It will buy you all some time.
NotMax
Okay, I’ll bite, Why the Ex-?
He’s an ex-convict but still a convicted felon. Doin’ the time don’t erase the crime.
Anne Laurie
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:
Classic dysfunctional family dynamics: One kid (one son, particularly) gets to be the Eternal Fvck-Up, the one who gets 90% of the parents’ attention/love/funds, because HE NEEDS IT. That means the other kid has to be the Good Son, who strives and succeeds, because that’s the remaining “niche”. Remember the parable of the Prodigal Son? Bad kid gets rewarded — good kid gets brushed off with a well-but-you-didn’t-need-us dismissal.
Outside of religious literature, it’s better to be the Good Son… when the family edifice comes crashing down, you get to walk away with your reputation, if not your fortune, intact. Doesn’t mean Josh won’t hold it against Jared, as the collapse progresses, but Josh has his own money and his own company, not to mention the (smart, progressive) supermodel girlfriend!
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Interesting, and what are you still doing up?
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Unfortunately, I’m not surprised. Sacto has both white supremacists and Black Bloc assholes within easy driving distance, and the cops have not exactly been trying to calm things down.
@trollhattan:
I have a theory that I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence for yet — I think the sheriff’s helicopter lost track of the actual perp, spotted Clark coming home from work in a hurry, and latched onto him.
Why was he coming home at a run through backyards? Because he had a police record and was trying to avoid exactly the kind of confrontation that killed him. Everybody knows what it means when a goddamned helicopter starts circling the neighborhood with a spotlight. I live in the frickin’ middle-class SFV and I know what it means.
NotMax
@Brachiator
Ivanka schtupper by proxy.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: Actually speaking from experience, he’ll probably pass out.
@MisterForkbeard: I’m not a shrink and I didn’t stay in a Holiday Inn Express so I didn’t comment in the other thread; I hope that he gets the help he needs.
MisterForkbeard
@Adam L Silverman: I get it, but he’s underage for alcohol and in a state where pot is still illegal. His grandparents aren’t going to buy into that strategy, and they’re the ones who are housing him at the moment. I’d be skeptical as well – it might makes things even worse when they inevitably get taken away from him again.
@BillinGlendaleCA: Thanks. Appreciated.
Adam L Silverman
@BillinGlendaleCA: That too.
eclare
@Anne Laurie: Also, he may actually want to be accepted (or continue to be accepted) into the Manhattan society crowd. He was at the Women’s March last year, and someone said they thought he was also at the March for Our Lives.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: time to do what exactly?
Adam L Silverman
@MisterForkbeard: I understand, it was just a thought based on my professional understanding of biopsych. Far better you get him into custodial care, which I know you all are working on.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Get him into treatment.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Adam L Silverman:
Good god.
MisterForkbeard
@Adam L Silverman: Appreciate the idea, nonetheless.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: I don’t know that he’d be any more willing to volunteer if he went back to his just-kooky self-medicated personality. I dunno, just strikes me as possibly disastrous.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
The guy is already expressing some scary and violent delusions (there were more details in a previous thread). I’m not sure that adding pot back to his brain chemistry is going to be helpful.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@MisterForkbeard:
I bet his uncle must feel like shit now.
I hope everything goes well and he gets the help he needs.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: I’m not sure either, but if he was self medicating and has gone down hill since he stopped, then it might make sense to resume. Regardless, for various reasons it is not an option so the suggestion is OBE.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Baud:
What is that supposed to mean?
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: what in the article did you find unclear?
MisterForkbeard
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: His uncle (my brother) is more angry than anything else. Keep in mind that he lived with him for 2 years or so, sponging off him the whole time and refusing to comply with any house rules. And then basically threatened my brother’s kids if he couldn’t smoke/drink, or at least said he might hurt them involuntarily if he didn’t get what he wanted.
My brother is more pissed that after nearly two years of trying to help his nephew (and the kid refused even minor amounts of help, rules, or things like ‘go to school or get a part time or stop stealing alcohol’) it’s come to this, and the kid is also trying to spread lies about my brother to the rest of his extended family. He’s angry that his nephew repaid his kindness with backstabbing, enough so that he’s basically washing his hands of the whole thing. Except, of course, that he wants his wife to be happy (kiddo is HER blood relation, not his) and he’s concerned that the nephew might hurt someone. But he’s basically done with the whole thing, so far as he can.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: I imagine the whole family, including Forkbeard, feels pretty shitty.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
Add this to the “Not Surprised” file:
The creators of South Park have come out as Republicans.
MisterForkbeard
@Major Major Major Major: We’re certainly all feeling awful about it, but I don’t think any of us feel especially responsible. We all tried to help – he just wasn’t going to do it.
No one’s really in a good place on this one emotionally, but it’s not our fault.
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: This was pretty clear from how they treated Hillary and Obama, as well as some year-long storylines.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@MisterForkbeard:
I didn’t know all of that. Sorry about that.
EBT
@Adam L Silverman: the author of that aticle is why I don’t date people who describe themselves with religious terms.
eclare
@MisterForkbeard: Good luck with everything tomorrow, how awful.
MisterForkbeard
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: All good. Don’t worry about it – it’s what it is.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: i believe they’ve said it in the past. They’re obviously temperamentally and demographically libertarians.
@MisterForkbeard: yeah, I didn’t mean shitty as in culpable. Just trying to suggest some empathy.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
I honestly didn’t read it. It appears from that quote that Drum is saying that Dems aren’t sufficiently anti-rich and that as a consequence aren’t that much different from how they represent the rich than the Republicans.
I’m probably wrong tho.
Baud
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: I’m glad I never got into that show.
Baud
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: You are correct that you are wrong. It’s not a judgmental piece.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: @? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: that’s not really the sort of thing Drum would say, anyway.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Baud:
I always thought it was juvenile and stupid. The constant contrianism (which was probably because of their libertarianism) was the biggest put off for me. In their version of Hell in-universe, JFK, RFK, and Ghandi are there along with Hitler (They’re Mormons, aren’t they?
I roughly remember an episode that dealt with Big Box stores like Walmart that kill smaller local businesses. The main characters then criticize the Big Box store opponents as being hypocrites for not wanting the chain owners to come into town and make money. I knew then that South Park was awful. Oh and their merciless mocking of Al Gore. Can’t forget that.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Goku should read the whole piece.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@BillinGlendaleCA:
I just did. It basically says that politicians influence constituent views because they are elites. It explains why political polarization is a thing.
BillinGlendaleCA
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: Yup.
MisterForkbeard
@Major Major Major Major: All good. I was agreeing with you and clarifying further – apologies if it read differently.
Origuy
@Adam L Silverman: The Sacramento Bee has a detailed account of the events, somewhat skeptical of the official claims.
eemom
@Adam L Silverman:
I get that it’s a moot point situationally, but am moved by close family experience to say that I understand you to be absolutely right about this. Cutting off the self meds cold turkey without professional supervision, we were told, would skyrocket the person’s anxiety; the goal is to get him into medically supervised detox and therapy.
Mnemosyne
@eemom:
The full(er) story is in the “We Are All Easter Bunny” thread. Short version, he got cut off and kicked out of the house he was living in after threatening to harm a toddler.
MisterForkbeard
@eemom: This probably would have been a decent approach if circumstances permitted – basically, dial him down slowly. But up until about two weeks ago, no one had any idea he was this bad or had the potential to go this bad. It just looked like a kid who wasn’t willing to live up to any responsibilities whatsoever. :(
@Mnemosyne: More precisely, he was told that he couldn’t smoke, get high, or drink in the house but if he’d keep it away from the house they wouldn’t stop him from doing it with friends or at the park or whatever.
Given that it’s legal in CA now, there wasn’t any real reason he couldn’t walk 4 blocks to the local park and smoke there if he wanted. Or to a local 7-eleven. That was too much for him.
eemom
@MisterForkbeard:
Anyway, I dearly hope you are able to get some help for him, and relief and peace of mind for you and your family.
MisterForkbeard
@eemom: Thank you.
Aimai
@MisterForkbeard: jesus the kid is in the middle of a major psychotic break. Get him committed.
Jack the Second
So here I think is the fly in the Jared-Trump ointment.
Trump looks to Jared for a surrogate son to replace his incompetent pair, Donny Jr especially. But does Jared really need a surrogate father figure? I don’t think he really has a relationship problem with his father. I think all Trump is to Jared is a needy father-in-law and a once-useful source of connections. I think the only thing keeping him from selling Trump out is not wanting to fuck up his marriage; I don’t think he’s smart enough to figure out a way to walk that tightrope himself so I think he’ll be waiting until the prospect of jail is worse than divorce or until Ivanka gives him the nod it’s okay.
Albatrossity
“We all stick together” is an interesting mantra to emerge from a family where the patriarch tried to blackmail his brother, who he still doesn’t speak to these days. Words mean nothing, I guess.