Attorney–client privilege is dead!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 10, 2018
Well, so is your Presidency. https://t.co/8zLKlj6WeN
— Rick Wilson (@TheRickWilson) April 10, 2018
Long live the crime-fraud exception https://t.co/1nnqZegqfF
— Preet Bharara (@PreetBharara) April 10, 2018
Remember, @DonaldJTrumpJr cited attorney-client privilege to avoid answering a key question about the Trump Tower meeting fallout to the House Intelligence Committee. https://t.co/bH4oDUrbNB
— Kyle Cheney (@kyledcheney) April 10, 2018
By the way, there is no “consigliere-client” privilege for a mobster’s conspiratorial conversations with his lawyer. Never has been. Just saying.
— Laurence Tribe (@tribelaw) April 10, 2018
The F.B.I. search of Trump attorney Michael Cohen’s office and hotel room is a historic development, even in the lofty context of the Mueller investigation, says @Popehat https://t.co/Af3BTBV58J
— NYT Opinion (@nytopinion) April 10, 2018
… This is what we know, in part from Mr. Cohen’s attorney: The United States attorney’s office in Manhattan, acting on a referral from Mr. Mueller, sought and obtained search warrants for Mr. Cohen’s law office, home and hotel room, seeking evidence related at least in part to his payment of $130,000 in hush money to the adult actress Stephanie Clifford, who goes by her stage name, Stormy Daniels. There are reports that the warrant sought evidence of bank fraud and campaign finance violations, which is consistent with an investigation into allegations that the Daniels payment was illegally sourced or disguised. (For example, routing a payment through a shell company to hide the fact that the money came from the Trump campaign — if that is what happened — would probably violate federal money-laundering laws.)
What does this tell us? First, it reflects that numerous officials — not just Mr. Mueller — concluded that there was probable cause to believe that Mr. Cohen’s law office, home and hotel room contained evidence of a federal crime…
Second, the search demonstrates that federal prosecutors and supervisors in the Justice Department concluded that Mr. Cohen could not be trusted to preserve and turn over documents voluntarily…
Third, the search suggests that prosecutors most likely believe that Mr. Cohen’s clients used his legal services for the purpose of engaging in crime or fraud. Attorney-client communications are privileged, which is why it’s so unusual and difficult for prosecutors to get approval to search a law office. Justice Department regulations require federal prosecutors to set up a system to have a separate group — a so-called dirty team — review the files and separate out attorney-client communications so that the investigators and prosecutors won’t see anything protected by the privilege.
But if a client is using a lawyer’s services for the purpose of engaging in crime or fraud, there is no privilege. The very aggressive search of Mr. Cohen’s office for attorney-client files suggests that the prosecutors believe they can convince a judge that communications between Mr. Trump and Mr. Cohen fall under the crime-fraud exception. If you think they can’t pull that off, think again — they’ve already done it once: Mr. Mueller persuaded a judge to apply the exception to compel testimony from Paul Manafort’s lawyer, arguing successfully that he engaged her services in order to commit fraud…
… [C]onsider this: The Stormy Daniels payout may be outside the scope of the Russia investigation, but it’s possible that Mr. Cohen’s records are full of materials that are squarely within that scope. And the law is clear: If investigators executing a lawful warrant seize evidence of additional crimes, they may use that evidence. Thus Mr. Trump and Mr. Cohen, with their catastrophically clumsy handling of the Daniels affair, may have handed Mr. Mueller devastating evidence…
GregB
You misspelled Russier.
Hawes
Didn’t know Attorney-Client Privilege was sick.
Thoughts and prayers…
Mike in DC
As I said on LGM, it’s like watching a lopsided boxing match with multiple knockdowns that gets stopped late, only the video is slowed down to 1 frame per second.
LAO
I thought this was a really good thread from this am:
FlipYrWhig
Trump’s understanding of attorney-client privilege, 1:
Trump’s understanding of attorney-client privilege, 2:
dmsilev
Doesn’t the search suggest that the prosecutors _already have_ convinced a judge that there’s good reason to believe that the crime-fraud clause is triggered? I mean, despite Trump’s screeching to the contrary, the FBI had a warrant signed off on by a judge…
Betty Cracker
It would be so fitting if Stormy Daniels brought the whole Jenga tower of treason crashing onto their heads.
LAO
Who else is looking forward to the WH’s 2:30 press conference? Which I can only follow on twitter, Sad!
LAO
@dmsilev: yes.
NotMax
Anyone else following the ongoing saga of Lula? A telenovela on steroids. Politics in Brazil is nothing if not … colorful, and current events unfolding in advance of October’s election are no exception.
Couple of decent get up to speed rundowns of the latest at the BBC: #1 – #2.
germy
The GOP seems to have scrubbed Mr. Cohen from their website
dmsilev
@Betty Cracker: Just wait and watch as Republicans start claiming that sex-related don’t count, not even lying under oath about them. Because we all know that will happen.
Yutsano
@dmsilev: Although I agree with Kay that we shouldn’t really frame it like this, the fact that Dolt45 appointed the judge who signed off on this is some level of Schadenfreude I can get behind.
efgoldman
Today, we are all
SpartacuslawyersCorner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: Mueller: {neck loosening exercise} It’s just been revoked!
trollhattan
@Hawes: Bowing in your general direction.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: zactly
germy
Here’s a funny 2016 tweet from Mr. Cohen:
Calouste
Does Cohen actually hold a current law license? We know he has a law degree, from the worst law school in the country. We also know that he tried to file something in California, but had to find someone with a license there to actually do that.
Attorney-client privilege is not going to apply if he isn’t an attorney.
kindness
Trump is going to fire Mueller. Yea, Trump will have to fire Rosenstein first but Trump don’t give a shit about having his own Saturday Night Massacre. So then what? Yea we hit the streets but then what?
Republicans have already telegraphed the world they will do nothing to stop Trump. Nothing.
Then what?
Barbara
@Calouste: I don’t know with any certainty but it would by highly unusual for the state of New York not to have acted by now if he didn’t. But you never know. There are cases where everyone just assumes that a person acting as a lawyer is actually a member of the bar and it turns out they never actually completed the paperwork.
trollhattan
Trump is probably torn over the competing ways to leverage this story: Another reason to “get Assad?” or “good riddance to some fake media?”
LAO
This isn’t ominous, at all:
Raw Story
scav
@trollhattan: Oh, I think bowing in the very specific diection is warrented. <adjusts prostrate form ever so slightly to the west>
Anonymous At Work
Someone explain “hotel room” to me in greater detail. Cohen lives and works in NYC and they raided a hotel room he rents 24/7/365 a year? Why does he have a hotel room? Or do they mean, “his hotel room, wherever he might be staying at the time”?
Barbara
@kindness: Howzabout we wait for it to happen first?
rikyrah
the tweets are funny :)
NotMax
@efgoldman
Headline of the near future:
Trump’s lawyer’s lawyer’s lawyer’s lawyer’s lawyer’s lawyer: “No comment before I am able to consult with counsel.”
Barbara
@Anonymous At Work: Apparently he was having work done on his house. That’s the official explanation.
? Martin
Zuckerberg looks very comfortable. This will go great.
germy
Sarah Sanders Huckabee will be giving a press briefing very shortly.
(And she will be very short with the press’s questions, I’m sure)
LAO
@Calouste: Cohen is registered in NY State.
germy
@? Martin: How many of those congresspeople “harshly” questioning Zuck took massive campaign contributions from facebook? I’d like to see a chart.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@kindness:
It’s not even that simple. He would need to find someone else to fire Mueller. Not that easy. On top of that, Mueller has civil service protections and can only be fired for cause.
LongHairedWeirdo
Re: no “consigliere-client” privilege: that’s 100% correct, but the reason it confuses people is, it usually requires a confession on one side or the other. See, Attorney Client Privilege means the government should have any access, at all, to what a client and attorney say. It should be impossible for the government to learn that the conversation wasn’t legal advice, but orders to the consigliere.
Unless, you know, the attorney says it and the client says the same thing, at which point, you’d be up the infamous creek, sans paddle, with a hole in one’s boat. But geez, how completely flipping stupid _and_ incompetent a pair would have to be, to have that happen! I sure hope they’re not doing anything important. Heck, I hope they’re not allowed to use the “grown-up” scissors!
Because, geez, could you imagine if someone that stupid were in charge of, I dunno, a couple sticks of dynamite? Who knows what horrible things could happen.
(To complete the joke, you can imagine me walking away, having someone whisper something in my ear, and have me trying to reenact Heston at the end of Planet of the Apes, with “you elected him” subbed for “you blew it up”.)
Calouste
@Anonymous At Work: His house is getting remodeled was the explanation I heard. The contractor better ask for cash before continuing the work.
Corner Stone
The Zuck Show hath begun. Zuck looks like he has simultaneously had all the blood drawn from his body and is also practicing his Kegel exercises.
catclub
@dmsilev:
I am not sure. I think M Cohen is not just an attorney, but also a criminal actor, so the search of his stuff ( as criminal actor, not as atty) is not necessarily relevant to crossing atty client privilege.
germy
Ahh…. the Brain Trust.
germy
@Corner Stone: He’s been apologizing for Facebook since 2003.
The washington post has a timeline up, of all his apologies and promises to “do better”
catclub
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?:
That is the dumb way. Get someone to manage Mueller’s budget and squeeze him that way – no pay for his workers.
trollhattan
@LAO:
They’re all a special kind of awful but Jeanine Pirro, with whom I’ve only recently become aware seems utterly batshit crazy, anchored by a desire to be the meanest, most vindictive mean girl in whatever room she’s occupying.
FlipYrWhig
@LAO: The Trumple Rose of Cairo?
After
CeciliaDonald sits through the film several times,TomHannity, noticingherhim, breaks the fourth wall, and emerges from the black-and-white screen into the colorful real world on the other side of the cinema’s screen. He tellsCeciliaDonald that he is attracted toherhim after noticingherhim watching him so many times, andshehe takes him aroundher New Jersey townhis White House. Later, he takesherhim into the film and they have a great evening on the town within the film. The two fall in love.LAO
Corner Stone
I hate the preening media whores that are our Congress. Also too, I think Zuck is an alien pod person.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@Corner Stone:
Zuckerbot?
Animatrix reference inbound
gratuitous
I guess Trump’s best hope is that Michael Cohen hired a better lawyer than he did.
germy
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2018/04/10/facebook-accused-of-deeming-black-pro-trump-sisters-unsafe/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.322eb1a4fe27
LAO
This seems juicy:
rikyrah
@Anonymous At Work:
the story that I heard is that they are redecorating his apartment, so he’s living at a hotel in the meantime.
? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?
@catclub:
Have you seen this admin in action?I guarantee Trump will try that if he ever does.
catclub
@germy:
How much to make massive. I just read that the Koch’s gave $500k to Paul Ryan’s PAC, that is like me giving it $40. How massive is that?
Corner Stone
@gratuitous:
He had to take a home equity loan out to pay a measly $130K. What level attorney can he afford?
catclub
@? ?? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ? ?: touche’
Jeffro
I’d like to take a moment and remind everyone that when – not if, but when – Trumpov leaves office prematurely, handcuffs or not, we cannot let them simply swear Pence in and “look forward, not back”.
If a corrupt and/or treasonous campaign organization manages to get a candidate
electedinstalled, the office is NOT handed off to the next person in line from that corrupt/treasonous organization. If the Hawaii Republican Party helped coordinate the strike on Pearl Harbor and in doing so knocked out the offices of the Hawaiian Democratic Party, the Repubs don’t get to just waltz into the Governor’s office, nor pass it on to the Lt. Gov once their crimes have been discovered.NotMax
@Anonymous At Work
Dunno if this is the case but it is not all that unusual for corporations, law firms, etc. to maintain an apartment locally. Place for out of town clients to stay, serves as a pied-a-terre for the company’s execs whose primary residence is out of town, etc. Many hotels offer what are essentially apartments on a contractual basis. Also a tax write-off as a business expense.
FlipYrWhig
@germy: Yes, I’m sure the official letter used the word “appeal-able.” Also, someone left a backwards B on their cheeks that stood for “Barack Obama.”
White & Gold Purgatorian
Senators Grassley and Schumer have both been in the news today essentially warning Trump not to fire Mueller. What seems odd about Grassley’s comments is that in at least one interview (video link here) Grassley stated his belief that Trump shouldn’t fire Mueller because Mueller “would appreciate being fired” since he knows collusion is “a dead end.”
WTF? Is this just Grassley trying to manipulate Trump, is he splitting legal hairs over the meaningless “collusion” term or does he really think Mueller is looking for a way out? From down here in the weeds it looks like Mueller and his team are going great guns.
I know, it is Chuck Grassley talking and I shouldn’t give much credit to his utterances, but the bit about Mueller wanting to be fired sounds so damned odd.
TenguPhule
@germy: Fuck their feelings.
catclub
@Corner Stone: Cohen is a very rich man, I am not and I could still come up with $130k if I were desperate.
I think there may be a mismatch of assets and liabilites and cash for Cohen. (But there should not be.)
Him needing a loan to get $130k is like the story of the RollsRoyce used as collateral on a loan in order to get the bank to provide free parking for three months
while the owner goes to Europe.
Betty Cracker
@trollhattan: Pirro is like a braying drunk at the far end of the bar with whom the other patrons desperately avoid eye contact because they don’t want to set her off again.
@germy: Rock and Burlap got demonetized? Ha!
Xenos
Is it even proven that Cohen is Trump’s attorney? It is reported that his an employer is the Trump Organisation, not Trump himself.
Or is there an inside counsel-shareholder privilege that I was just unaware of?
jc
Trump is a nuclear reactor who’s core has been breached, he’s going into full meltdown. Hopefully the spiking toxicity levels won’t release so much radiation that many civilians are killed.
Trump is the butt of the joke that his presidency has made of this country.
SiubhanDuinne
Chuck Grassley drawing equivalency between Cambridge Analytica and Obama’s 2012 campaign.
Old Dan and Little Anne
@germy: I flipped over to fox last night at either 9:10 pm. or 10:10 pm to see what they were covering. That is when I first saw and heard of Diamond and Silk.
germy
@FlipYrWhig: That was my reaction as well. Sounds like the sisters made up a letter to jump on the Conservatives Are Being Oppressed! bandwagon.
Maybe they’re hoping for more donations from the rubes…
catclub
@Jeffro:
We both would like to believe that is true. But it is at best a norm to be broken. I can bet that there is no law to deal with that circumstance.
Spanky
@Corner Stone:
I’m so old I remember the Rude Pundit shortening all of that to simply “Zuckerberg is shitting blood”.
FlipYrWhig
@Betty Cracker: It’s a claim so credible it should end “Signed, Epstein’s mother.”
LAO
@Xenos:
???? Trump refers to him as his personal Attorney (as does the White House Press Secretary, prior to today) and Cohen holds himself out to be Trump’s attorney, what level of proof would you require?
Jeffro
@catclub:
A half million dollars. That’s insane. Someone should ask the Kochs how they’d feel if a left-wing donor were to give $500,000,000 to Ryan’s opponent – still fair? Are your voices still being heard in our democracy there, Charles and David? No? Why not?
They (SCOTUS) should tie the limit on political donations to some % of what a minimum-wage worker nets in a year. And yes, I would like a rainbow unicorn along with that limit, but still…we have to push for limits on this crap.
FlipYrWhig
@germy: My (gullible Trump-loving) hair stylist adores them, so, whatever they decide they want, I’m sure they’ll get it.
LAO
@trollhattan: Pirro really is disgusting.
(Totally crazy Pirro aside, one thousand years ago when my brother was a US probation officer, he wrote Albert Pirro’s PSI (pre-sentence investigation report) for the Court to use for sentencing).
germy
LAO
This seems a little delusional to me:
catclub
@Jeffro:
But my point was that for the Koch’s it is less than chump change.
FlipYrWhig
@germy: Facebook turned me into a newt! [pause] I got better.
different-church-lady
Ah, the deliciousness of seeing the CNN webpage ticker weave back and forth between Zuck squirming in front of congress and SHS squirming in front of reporters asking whether Trump is considering resigning…
Jeffro
@catclub: True – it would require that someone argues on behalf of 65M disenfranchised voters that their rights were denied due to one campaign’s criminal activity (in conspiracy with a hostile foreign power).
It’d end up as a kind of “Bush v Gore” moment, with freak events requiring SCOTUS to weigh in and determine a presidential election, hopefully never to be repeated.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
Can we all now admit that these Masters of the Universe types are unsuitable for leadership, as they are too influenced by their hormones?
different-church-lady
@kindness: Then we find out what Meuller’s dead hand mechanism is.
Corner Stone
@catclub: I am not so sure. IMO, Cohen is not very wealthy but rather has just been washing a lot of money for other very wealthy people. He gets put into great deals and takes a cut but the vast amount winds up back in someone else’s pocket. I know we can’t always determine the reasons for their actions, because they are stupid and have gotten away with it so far and are arrogant, but would you commit bank fraud (and maybe wire fraud) by lying to a bank for $130K if you could move a few accounts and scratch up that kind of cash?
MattF
@LAO: I’ve been expecting that Trump will nominate Hannity as AG.
germy
@FlipYrWhig: So now you see the violence inherent in the system.
LAO
@LAO: And incorrect to me:
NotMax
@Jeffro
Two basic problems with your analogy.
1) The Democratic party in Hawaii was a moribund entity until the mid-1950s, when labor’s consolidated clout flexed its muscles
2) Hawaii was a territory at the time of Pearl Harbor. Governor was not decided by election, was appointed by the U.S. President.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
Heh, perfect. “Insurance! Gawww dammmn insurance! Did you know that I….” [everybody inches towards the door]
LAO
@MattF: My money’s on Jeanine. She was the DA of Westchester Co, NY.
dmsilev
@LAO: Yet she also claimed that Trump thinks the Mueller investigation is a witch hunt which has gone too far. If the raid didn’t have anything to do with the President, why is the President so concerned about it?
I know, “logic” and “common sense” are badthink.
trollhattan
@LAO:
Why, if noted legal scholar Possum Queen says it, it must thereby be fact.
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady:
They asked her that? Who had the guts to ask that question?
droog
There’s something I don’t get about Stormy Monday:
If Mueller passed this up the chain because it is not related to the Russia probe, why did Rosenstein call the shots on this and not Sessions? If it’s not related to Russia, as every news outlet keeps repeating, then Sessions’ recusal is not applicable, and he would obviously would have wanted to weigh on such a delicate issue.
So I’m guessing this development packs a double punch: First, it has some overlap with the Russia probe, hence why Sessions is out of the loop. Secondly, Trump’s tone suggests to me he is not freaking about Russia but rather about all the other dodgy stuff he must have done through Cohen before, during and after the campaign, hence why Mueller must remain out of the loop as well.
Two for Tuesdays!
MattF
@LAO: I guess it’s happening in a different space-time continuum. One wonders if Trump could still pardon Cohen if Cohen only exists in certain quantum states and not in others.
Gelfling 545
@LAO: By tomorrow she won’t know if he’s ever met him.
trollhattan
@LAO:
Wow, so she’s practiced at yelling at rich people.
Kelly
@Jeffro:
My fantasy tax code always limited the max deductions to the minimum wage times 40 hours a week times 52 weeks in a year.
FlipYrWhig
@dmsilev: Because, see, the overzealous witch hunters are trying to rough up anyone _associated_ with the perfectly innocent president. To which John Podesta might say, “um, if associates are off-limits, why exactly does the world know my risotto recipe?”
different-church-lady
@zhena gogolia: April Ryan.
FlipYrWhig
@droog: Ooh, interesting. But isn’t Sessions recused from anything having to do with the 2016 election, not just the Russia piece?
? Martin
@Corner Stone: Cohen is worth 5-10 million. I see 2 reasons to take out the HELOC:
1) He’s underwater on some of his investments and isn’t liquid enough to drop 130 large.
2) If he withdrew $130K from a bank that’d go to Treasury. It’s not clear if there’s a paper trail that allows a wire transfer from his lender to his LLC to bypass Treasury, but I bet there is. My guess is he did it that way to keep it from legal scrutiny, which is why Daniels’ lawyer has been banging on how Cohen explained the need for the funds to his lender, suggesting he lied about it.
Now, normally if you want to borrow $130K you need to put some pretty solid explanation behind it – improvement to the property being used as collateral, etc. ‘Paying off a porn star’ usually doesn’t fly. But those conventions start to go out the window when you have a few million dollars invested through that institution. But that’s being pretty generous to Cohen. Cohen became a lawyer so he could break the law and have a legal shield to hide behind. He is a tsunami of wrongdoing.
germy
? Martin
@? Martin: Oh, 3rd reason: Cohen paid off a LOT more women than we know and simply ran out of cash on hand.
Anonymous At Work
@NotMax: That makes sense. I was trying to think why a law firm would have a hotel room when an anonymously-rented storage locker would be a better place to dump documents.
Peale
@SiubhanDuinne: This is an issue that really hasn’t been discussed much. Obama in 2008 and 2012 had a technological edge over his competitors. That appeared to have been lost in 2016. Why was that? What the Mercer’s appear to have bought for the GOP was a way to mobilize small numbers of voters in places like PA and Florida when it mattered. If it hadn’t involved Russia, we’d probably wouldn’t be paying attention to that all that much.
NotMax
@LAO
First, IANAL.
Second, my understanding is that under the code of conduct applicable to the legal profession, he ceased being an/the attorney of record the instant the warrant was served.
LAO
@dmsilev: The argument that I have been hearing on the TV re: Mueller acting beyond the scope of his directive strikes me as very poorly thought out. If Mueller discovers other or additional criminal conduct, what should he do? The proper thing, would be to refer the conduct to the appropriate prosecutor’s office — which may be what happened here. People on Fox seem to be advocating the position that Mueller should ignore any criminal wrongdoing that does not fall within his direct purview. It’s ridiculous.
r€nato
Alexa, please order all the popcorn.
Fair Economist
@White & Gold Purgatorian:
At this point we have to conclude almost the entire Republican Congressional leadership was in on surrendering to Russia. They are all thrashing about because they don’t know if they personally are going to be accused and keep trying various nonsensical claims hoping to distract the voters with bringing the investigators in on them.
LAO
@NotMax:
I am unfamiliar with that.
Jeffro
@NotMax: Ok, I’m sure it was unintentional but whew I needed that laugh. Thank you. ;)
Next time I’ll just keep it simple (and ahistorical): if a criminal enterprise, in conspiracy with a hostile foreign power, manages to ‘win’ an election through its unlawful acts…that enterprise, once the conspiracy/crimes are revealed, doesn’t get to keep the office no matter how far down the hierarchy/line of succession it goes.
Chris
“Terrorists and suspected terrorists should not be tried or given lawyers; we should leave them in a legally blank gulag on foreign soil for all of their lives, and also torture them. Cops shouldn’t be afraid to rough up suspects, they don’t do that enough. The Central Park Five should’ve been found guilty and not innocent. And Hillary Clinton should be locked up. But MY lawyer’s lawyer should have every courtesy extended to him well beyond what’s required by the law, because that’s different. PS I am not a crank.”
Peale
@Chris: Yeah. Come to think of it, I wouldn’t mind if I found out that Cohen and Flynn have been waterboarded during this process. Makes me a dick, but boo who hoo.
hitchhiker
Sitting here listening to Zuck talking about hate speech and AI in a strangled, nervous voice.
How does this individual have so much power over my life?
? Martin
@germy: As a mediocre white male, we’re going to die at the hands of mediocre white males who can fuck up in any and all contexts and be forgiven. Time to start making clear that there are consequences to these actions.
FlipYrWhig
Am I right that there used to be a gasp-inducing taboo against a president saying anything about any legal case, lest it prejudice the way it unfolded in the system?
LAO
@FlipYrWhig: You, you are correct. Once, seemingly a long, long time ago.
Xenos
@LAO:
I am not licensed in NY so I really have no idea what level of proof would be needed.
Trump already denied publicly that he communicated with Cohen with regard to Stormy D – so I would think any documents that Cohen has involving Stormy could be, in good faith, assumed by investigators to not be covered by a privilege. Remember, the privilege covers communications, and only covers documents to the extent that they make up communications between the client and the attorney.
I do not think Trump necessarily waived privilege with his public statement denying that Cohen was retained in this matter, but he is now going to have to assert this privilege in court in spite of this statement. The burden of persuasion has probably shifted to him, rather than the prosecutors.
And even my comment before simplified the situation – Cohen is described as representing Trump, as representing the Trump Organization, as representing the campaign — who really is his goddamn client? If you claim to represent all sorts of people and entities with contrary interests, and to represent them in all things as you make them up, there really is not ever a defensible claim to attorney-client privilege. The privilege fails without a) a well defined client, and b) a well defined scope of representation.
Cohen has arguably made himself a party and thus no longer an attorney (for the purposes of the privilege).
(edited because the gods of comma rules must be obeyed)
JPL
@Peale: What about Jared?
catclub
@hitchhiker:
1)Do you have a facebook account? That is reason 1.
2) Hundreds of millions of US Citizens have facebook acounts – that is reason #2.
MattF
Politico sez that Trump is not in a good mood these days:
catclub
@Xenos:
.
and that has took place long ago.
I still think Mueller’s other interest is in the Cohen in Russia negotiating for new Trump towers – partnered with Felix Sater!
? Martin
@hitchhiker: He really doesn’t. Yes, there are some really serious problems with Facebooks approach, but even if those weren’t there this is a kind of emergent behavior you get from social media. Users need to be more vigilant (yeah, good luck with that) but there’s no way to put this genie back in the bottle. It’s an inevitability from the zero marginal cost distribution that the internet provides. Just took a while for the various components to come together.
But yeah, I’m think he’s working pretty fucking hard to not cry right now.
catclub
@MattF:
what baloney. This could go on for many years.
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady:
Natch. So everyone can ignore her. But anyway, good for her!
I just played that clip and my husband across the room said, “It’s feeling Watergate-like. For those of us who remember.”
rikyrah
@germy:
this stuff is CRAZY!!
I will say it again..
If written in a screenplay, it would come back crossed out with
‘too incredible to believe’ written in the margins
? Martin
@FlipYrWhig:
There’s an exception if the President is white.
randy khan
@Xenos:
It’s complicated. Among other things, you can be someone’s lawyer without being paid for it (so in theory he could be Trump’s personal lawyer while being paid by the company to do work for the company), but as a lawyer for a company you owe your loyalty to the company, not to the CEO or owner. In a family business, it’s sometimes hard to pick apart when you’re working for the company or working for the owner.
Kelly
@FlipYrWhig:
No worries, it will be again as soon as we elect a Democrat.
germy
Yesterday, a Fox reporter asked drumpf “why don’t you just fire Mueller?”
LAO
@Xenos: I get what you are saying now, Cohen does have to worry about his ability to establish the “attorney-client” relationship as well as the crime-fraud exception. And, I do think it will be interesting to see how the government attempts to use the seized evidence. As of today, Michael Cohen hasn’t been arrested and there aren’t any charges pending against him or the President. I think that will change and I expect you are correct that a fierce legal battle will ensue as to each and every bit of seized evidence.
Mike in DC
@MattF:
Wait for:
1) the grand jury subpoena to 45 to testify
2) Manafort and/or Cohen flipping
3) first indictment of a Trump family member or in law
4) Midterms
5) Mueller’s reports to Rosenstein re Trump’s conduct
You will see how much worse his meltdown/freakout will get.
Corner Stone
@? Martin: That is a pretty generous estimate. Any reason you believe that net worth est? IMO, he does not have two nickels to rub together and is constantly looking for petty cash flow. That’s why he gets into a deal for (example) $50K and flips it for $90K six months later. That’s chump change to the guys he’s washing cash for. I also think there exists a slush fund Cohen was tapping into to pay women off and “fix” things. The $130K HELOC is likely going to be hubris in that he thought he could get away with anything at that point.
Supposedly he complained about not getting reimbursed. The man’s a petty grifter who needs all the liquid cash he can get.
rikyrah
I will repeat:
Every Democrat should have the attitude of either Ted Lieu or Maxine Waters
……………..
Last month @RepKathleenRice & I wrote a letter to @FBI asking for an investigation of both Michael Cohen & the National Enquirer. Both payments to silence two women appear to be massive violations of federal campaign finance law.
Pleased to see the Rule of Law being vindicated. https://t.co/aCAGucDFiz
— Ted Lieu (@tedlieu) April 10, 2018
rikyrah
It’s too late. Complex data profiles on almost every American user are in Moscow’s hands. This data cannot be retrieved. FSBook knew your data was being stolen, misused, and weaponized against you. They only care now b/c they were caught helping our enemy attack us. https://t.co/gs3xBGG49k
— Counterchekist (@counterchekist) April 10, 2018
randy khan
@droog:
There’s one really boring possible answer. Rosenstein, as Deputy Attorney General, might be the person responsible for signing off on those kinds of warrant requests. Not everything goes to the top.
schrodingers_cat
To those watching Zucky’s testimony, is he wearing a suit or that fugly grey undershirt.
ETA: Okay I see that he borrowed Jared’s suit.
trollhattan
@MattF:
Uhh, losing? Has this operative been living in a shoebox the last year and a half?
Bobby Thomson
Of all the Nelson Muntz moments in this administration, this is the Nelson Muntziest.
Fair Economist
@LAO:
That we know of. There are a number of sealed indictments.
Chris
@Fair Economist:
Whether they were in on it or not, they definitely are now. I would find it totally plausible that none of them had any input into Trump’s collusions with Russia, and that all of them decided to cover for him anyway, because Republican President > Democrats, no matter what the context.
rikyrah
@Fair Economist:
TRAITORS, ALL.
LAO
@Fair Economist: fair enough.
hueyplong
I’m now 3.5 hours from having to call my doctor.
JPL
Trump won’t do anything when the markets are open. I assume that he will bomb Syrian bases, and announce the departure of Mueller, Rosenstein, Sessions and the Attorney General of SDNY at the same time.
Sm*t Cl*de
@FlipYrWhig:
Only applies to presidents whose words have any value and are generally taken seriously.
WaterGirl
@LAO: your sentence is the real reason god created the words ‘oh my god’.
trollhattan
@JPL:
Can we make it a trifecta and have him replace Kelly with Ivanka? I’m so very bored.
Spanky
@hueyplong: What little blue pill(s) have you been taking?
? Martin
@Corner Stone: I first ran across Cohen’s name when I was researching the impact of ride sharing on the NYC taxi medallion market a number of years ago. Gene Friedman was the guy being profiled, who holds thousand of medallions and reformed how the industry was run. He moved from a model where the taxi company owned the cars and medallion, hired a driver, the company collected the fares and gave the driver a cut to one where the taxi company owns the cars and medallions and the driver hires the car and keeps everything they collect. That shifts the fare risk from the company to the driver. It made Friedman a billionaire. Cohen financed some of those medallions and owned shares in them. At their peak, the medallions were worth about $1.3M each. That was the buy-in cost to own a NYC taxi. Now, those are only worth half of what they were, which is why I suspect he’s underwater, but it’s still a sizable asset for him.
As you might expect, there’s almost nothing in the NYC taxi industry that is done above board.
Litlebritdifrnt
I am absolutely bawling at the RSCPA’s newest ad on TV. It has shown twice in the last hour and I am going to be a slobbering snotty faced mess if it shows again.
hueyplong
@Spanky: This thread.
Sm*t Cl*de
@? Martin:
Nixon received no end of flak for sharing his opinions on the guilt of Charles Manson.
ruemara
@schrodingers_cat: Suit.
As it’s an open thread, It’s looking more & more like next year I move to the LA area. Suggested areas for 2 modest humans and 2 egotistical cats? I am not looking forward to moving.
catclub
@Corner Stone: I thought that his $750k/yr from his law job, plus owning taxis in NY, would add up to a lot.
It talked about him selling a building for $9.25M and making a big profit there.
I guess there could be a lot of debt and not much ownership.
tobie
@Fair Economist: @rikyrah: Never forget that the RNC was hacked too. I suspect a lot of compromising material on Republican politicians was found through nefarious means that can be used against them at any point. How else to explain how they’ve all rolled over for Donny? I can’t think of a single Republican member of the House or Senate who has stood up to Trump with the possible exception of McCain. I don’t normally praise him but praise is due here.
different-church-lady
@hitchhiker: well, (a) there’s a lot of suckers out there, (b) he’s knows what psychological hooks the suckers will bite, and (c) when you become good enough at (b) the rest of us are reduced to passengers even if we don’t bite.
droog
@FlipYrWhig:
Ah, thanks for pointing that out, but isn’t that a distinction without a difference? I googled Session’s statement and indeed he recused from “existing and future investigations of any matters related in any way to the campaigns for President of the United States”. However, I understand Mueller’s probe is the “existing” one that Sessions is referring to. Mueller was brought in to take up an FBI investigation that was under way. Unless there were two probes already underway at the time of Session’s confirmation hearings?
@randy khan:
I thought about that but in the end thought against it. This is a high stakes game now. Just like everyone believes the magistrate judge considered the warrant carefully because of what is at stake so too would Rosenstein, in my opinion, act with care and cover his rear end. He would let his boss look over the issue if there was any legal room for him to do so. If Sessions was left out it is because he had to be kept out.
Jeffro
@Mike in DC:
I’d like to second this list, except to note that #4 will actually be the last item (and the list will be much longer by then – but that’s an easy bet)
Mueller is going to probably to drop Jared’s and Don Jr’s (and Ivanka’s?) indictments all on the same day. Epic!
Sm*t Cl*de
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PFnjXGPLidk/V2ZYtd9QyII/AAAAAAAATtQ/DYqCLCCRIoQzmhQMnrJsOBFDR6fvCFhfwCLcB/s1600/donald.PNG
different-church-lady
@zhena gogolia: “The fact is, these are really really dumb guys, and things were never in hand.”
catclub
@droog:
Except when he isn’t. Like participating in the firing of Comey – because either A)Comey mis-investigated Hillary during the election
or B)The FBI was conducting a present investigation of Trump and the 2016 election and the Russians.
trollhattan
Ooh, a Peter Thiel namedrop during the hearing (BBC)
Spanky
@hueyplong: Here’s something that will kill it for you. McArgleBlargle has an opinion piece up at the WaPo, I suppose because the editors needed a laugh, or something. Anyhoo …
No linky, because there are so many better things you can do with your time.
tobie
@trollhattan: Someone on TPM said Zuckerberg’s opening statement sounded like his d’var torah redux. That made me laugh.
Mnemosyne
@germy:
I really can’t help loving Avenatti:
different-church-lady
@Bobby Thomson: so far.
Corner Stone
Ashley Parker is wearing a long sleeve button up and a plaid tie. And I am not sure how I feel about it. At all.
Mnemosyne
@FlipYrWhig:
Only if the president was Black and talking about a Black person who had been arrested or killed by police in shady circumstances. Read the fine print next time, bub.
different-church-lady
I mean, the fuckin’ split screen of the sociopath who stole the current presidency next to the sociopath who was going to beat the first sociopath, going down, together on the same day, in real time…
Chris
@trollhattan:
“Palantir.” LMAO. I’m sorry, I’m still not over that.
Just one more canuck
@MattF: schrodinger’s lawyer? (With all due apologies to SC)
TenguPhule
@rikyrah:
In the not so distant future it will come back as “too realistic, needs to be more fantastic to sell as fiction.”
germy
@Mnemosyne: Avenatti is great. He’s making Cohen and Schwartz look like the fools they are.
TenguPhule
@Spanky:
We finally get to lynch them without any consequences whatsoever?
different-church-lady
@? Martin:
Oh, so he’s the lousy fuck who came up with that? Almost enough to make one cheer for Uber.
TenguPhule
@JPL:
I distinctly recall this was not the case only just the other week.
But her emails!!!
The President and the Porn Star. What sounds like an x-rated riff on an Orson Scott Card book, might end up being the title of an important historical volume on either the destruction or the salvation of our nation.
Would it be ironic or fitting if a porn star ends up saving our democracy? Nations have been saved by worse.
lgerard
@LAO:
Anyone who takes trump’s calls now is just putting themselves on the witness list in an obstruction of justice investigation.
The thought of Mueller hammering Hannity in an interview makes me very happy
TenguPhule
@tobie:
He voted for the tax cut. Fuck his soon to be rotting corpse, post haste.
Corner Stone
@But her emails!!!:
Completely fitting as the porn industry is the most democratic of all the industries.
White & Gold Purgatorian
@Fair Economist
Thanks. In other words, they are all losing their shit, Grassley included. With good reason. Hope the extent of their involvement in this mess is publicly revealed and appropriately punished, in my lifetime. Especially Mitch McConnell.
Mnemosyne
@ruemara:
Either find a place close to where you’ll be working or a place close to the public transit that’s closest to work. You can email me if you have a geographic location you’re looking at.
Amir Khalid
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Is the ad on YouTube by any chance? I just luvs YouTube videos that show pets, guitars, goals scored by Liverpool, and the German language.
burnspbesq
Liverpool looks safe. Barcelona is anything but.
Ruckus
@catclub:
The kocksucker Bros could give him 25 million and it would still be chump change. To them.
Eural Joiner
True story – I teach a government/economics class in which I use “The Social Network” every year. We started it today. Seriously, I couldn’t have planned it any better – shut off movie, switch to live broadcast of Zuckerberg in front of Congress!
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@germy: Avenatti has the same capacity as the kid in the crowd of the fairy tale who shouted that the emperor has no clothes. He somehow makes people act (not just talk) in ways that prove him right.
Mary G
@ruemara: Remembering that I haven’t lived there since 2001, so my knowledge is long out of date, you seem like a Silver Lake/Echo Park/Atwater Village type of person. Here’s a Forbes article from 2016 on Silver Lake.
LA Weekly in 2013 on Echo Park.
Mnem and Billin can probably help you more, but that’s my 2 cents, AKA where I’d love to return to.
ruemara
@Mnemosyne: I don’t have any idea about geography except google maps and I have no job as of yet. I just have to think of a budget level and work from there.
Amir Khalid
@Amir Khalid:
Speaking of Liverpool, they’ve come from behind to lead Manchester City 1-2 in the second leg of their Champions League quarterfinal. Liverpool lead 5-1 on aggregate; unless City find five goals in the dying minutes of the match, Liverpool will go on to a two-leg semifinal against a team to be named later. I feel good.
scav
I hover between
“Well, that’s what happens when you abuse things: they die.”
or,
“Long Live the (new) Client!”
Mnemosyne
@ruemara:
I’ll drop you an email — I have some ideas. ?
Uncle Ebeneezer
@ruemara: If you mean Los Angeles, let me plug my hometown, Altadena. It’s just north of Pasadena, closer to the San Gabriel mountains (great hiking and views), more ethnically diverse (with a strong Black history and population) and a little bit less wealthy/snotty than Pasadena (though I believe the home prices are actually slightly higher.). There’s a Goldline Metro Train that takes you downtown in only 20 minutes or so. Close to San Gabriel Valley so tons of great Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese etc., restaurants. The downsides are: Santa Ana winds coming off the mountains can be scary intense (but on the upside we have actual weather on many days when greater-LA does not), pretty damn far from the West Side/beaches/OC.
NotMax
@Amir Khalid
In case you’re not already familiar with them, Deutsche Welle’s YouTube channels in English and in German.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Mary G: Echo Park is great. There are some killer hidden-stairs hikes there that we’ve done with amazing views of the city. Also used to be a center for Communist activity back in the day.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Mnemosyne: THIS!!! Rule #1 for surviving LA: live as close as possible to your work.
Gelfling 545
@? Martin: And apparently if the Prez is looney.
Ruckus
@ruemara:
Really it depends on your budget. I live in Old Town Pasadena and it is a quite nice urban area. Good transportation, shopping, restaurants, etc. It isn’t cheap. But then it is CA. Email me we can discuss.
terraformer
@Fair Economist:
Indeed.
Recall that when McConnell and the rest of the Republican leadership were presented with evidence of Russian meddling, and were asked to essentially condemn it in bipartisan fashion, they refused. Things that make you go, “hmm…”
matyroshka
@germy: Actually, Maddow had a clip last night that pointed out quite clearly that no one actually asked Twitler about firing Mueller—he just launched into that mini-fugue all on his own.
Peale
@terraformer: This probably wasn’t the first election where the GOP was funneling dark money donations from Oligarchs is my guess. Won’t be the last. But then Al Gore once collected donations in a Buddhist Temple, so both sides.
Mnemosyne
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
@Ruckus:
I just emailed her some neighborhood names based on where I think she may be interested in working. Altadena may be a smidge far out, but not terrible.
Though, really, why is it such a PITA to travel between Burbank, Glendale, and Pasadena? They added the Orange Line bus, but it’s still a PITA. ?
Uncle Cosmo
@germy: Somewhere the ghost of Lloyd Bentsen must be smiling…;^D
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Mnemosyne: “Though, really, why is it such a PITA to travel between Burbank, Glendale, and Pasadena? They added the Orange Line bus, but it’s still a PITA. ?”
Totes. I’ll never understand why there isn’t a Metro train that runs from Pasadena across the Valley. That’s like the major missing-link in the LA train web, Imo.
Uncle Cosmo
@Just one more canuck: You toss the lawyer into a soundproof cell with opaque walls, along with a long list of indictments with his name on them, scheduled to be filed an hour later, and a loaded pistol. Until you open the door, you don’t know if the Scheisster is alive or dead…
No Drought No More
It appears Cohen is currently sitting in the cat bird seat, and will be able to cut a deal with prosecutors. (And why the hell not? The feds cut a deal with Sammy The Bull once, too, and Cohen ain’t no STB). But isn’t that bad news for Paul Manafort? And shouldn’t he now be more inclined to cut a deal as quickly as possible, before Cohen does?
“The first one here to confess gets the reduced sentence”. Jack McCoy, at least twice a season
Chris Johnson
@Jeffro:
Nah. Just tax it. Donate all you want, taxed fifty percent. If that doesn’t work, taxed 95 percent.